Microphone Impedance Matching

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Ok, I see you mention INPUT impedance.

But, I thought mic. input transformers generally had primary impedances around 150 to 200 ohm roughly? Idea being one end of the TX had to be loaded with somethng around the 150 -200 mark. IE , being most microphones?
 
[quote author="caps"]I thought mic. input transformers generally had primary impedances around 150 to 200 ohm roughly?[/quote]

Mic input transformers have primary impedances equal to whatever is on the secondary side, times the inverse of the square of the turns ratio. So a typical tube input, for example, (1:10 tx, 1M grid resistor) has an input impedance of 1000000/10^2=10K. A 150 Ohm mic input would be pretty useless for the most part, since you would get roughly half the voltage transfer and S/N ratio compared to a proper high impedance input.

Peace,
Al.
 
> as seen from the secondary bill?

The Valley People preamps were transformerless, and really did give super-high-Z loading.

One downside is that if the mike gets disconnected, the line can pick up a LOT of crap.

> A dynamic mic produces an output CURRENT that is proportional to the deflection of the diaphragm... NOT voltage.

I don't get this. I have no argument with your results: mike loading is not cast in stone, and the maker's notion of "best" may not be what the artist wants.

I'd have to ponder some more about the terminology. I may not get far because theory is useless. But in most cases, current is mostly about the load impedance, and most motor-theory is derived in terms of voltage and speed. Using a zero-Z load requires re-examining all the theory assumptions....

For one thing: every voltage-mode system has a current-mode dual. We run lamps in parallel on constant 120V, and turn them off by opening a connection. BUT when arc-lamps were common, they were often run in series at constant 1 Amp (instead of constant voltage, which is unnatural to an arc). To turn off the lamp you shorted it. The constant-voltage generator has to supply varying current depending how many lamps are on; the constant-current generator has to supply varying voltage. It is quite simple to compound a generator either way. It is possible for a transformer to transform current instead of voltage, and current transformers still exist for measuring and metering (you have to be sure to short, not open, the secondary when not in use). The reasons that constant-voltage became the standard game is obscure. It may have to do with batteries being naturally constant voltage, and everybody applying battery-thinking to other systems.

In classic motor theory, the voltage is directly proportional to the conductor speed. But in a dynamic mike, conductor speed is a function of mass, stiffness, damping, size, and other details. If designing an omni dynamic for high-Z loading, to get flat response over a wide band you add damping greater than mass or stiffness. For a cardioid you make mass greater than damping or stiffness, so the rising pressure difference is corrected by a falling diaphragm velocity function.

For a hi-Z load, that voltage is what you get. Let's skip the matched load and go right to Ted's low-Z load. What is the difference? To the diaphragm, nearly none. The mechano-electric coupling of the small coil and teeny magnet is so low that nothing you do on the electrical side really affects the diaphragm motion. So the same motion generates the same voltage, but now the electrical impedance matters.

What is the electrical impedance of a microphone? It has the same trends as the well-known loudspeaker impedance curve. There is a copper resistance. At the top, any coil goes inductive. There is a resonance, though a mike is tuned higher than a speaker: about 900Hz for omni, ~~200Hz for a cardioid. In a speaker the impedance at resonance may be 5 to 10 times higher than the copper resistance. In an omni dynamic, the resonance is suppressed (Q~=0.1) by mechanical or acoustic damping (a block of felt behind the diaphragm) so the impedance is nearly dead-flat from bass up to the top where inductance may or may not become significant. In that case, current is essentially proportional to sound pressure, just as voltage is proportional to sound pressure for hi-Z load. The lower resonance of a cardioid is less damped, but would rarely be as high as Q=1, in which case the impedance rise would be small and the output current nearly proportional to sound pressure. The difference between hi-Z and lo-Z loading isn't insignificant, but will be less than the difference between one mike and another model, possibly less than two "same" mikes.

Ribbon mikes actually have some mechano-electric efficiency. Electrical loads do reflect back to the mechanical motion. Olson, who designed most of the classic US ribbons, declared that his mikes worked best with hi-Z loading such as classic US open-grid transformers. However he didn't say this until late in his career, so it may not be very important. It would be cynical to wonder if the paper was prepared when some other preamp company was introducing lo-Z mike inputs and RCA wanted a reason for customers to stay with RCA preamps.

I'm not sure about Hugh's idea that capacitor mikes introduced voltage matching. Certainly many older (and some current) tube condenser mikes output essentially a plate impedance reflected down to a line impedance, not the very low source impedance of many-transistor jobs like AKG414.

Zero-Z loading has some subtle advantages. Cable capacitance vanishes, which also means that dielectric losses and nonlinearity and piezo vanishes. These effects are small, but people pay big money for fancy mike cable with extra-virgin poly dielectric star-quad layout mike cable in hi-Z lines, which might not be needed in zero-Z lines. Cable resistance fights the zero-Z concept, but it would take a LOT of cable resistance to have any real effect against capsule resistance. (Capsule is 200Ω, a long cable is barely 20Ω.)

There are too many ways to skin cats. Theory be danged. Plug it in, load it up, and listen.

One caveat: the super condenser mikes may resent being shorted. Some will stand it, others state a minimum load below which they will clip at high level. Ted knows this and adds his 'artificial impedance'; if you roll-yer-own it is something to keep in mind.
 
> Mic input transformers have primary impedances equal to whatever is on the secondary side, times the inverse of the square of the turns ratio. ..... 1000000/10^2=10K

In parallel with the transformer imperfections.

Transformers don't have infinite bass response, and you pay a lot to get a few hundred ohms primary impedance at 20Hz. Say 200Ω at 20Hz, 2KΩ at 200Hz, 20KΩ at 2KHz...

Everything has capacitance, especially a bunch of close-laid wires, also a triode tube. This is usually significant at the top of the audio band. Say 200Ω at 20KHz, 2KΩ at 2KHz, 20KΩ at 200Hz...

There is also core loss, which is a very complex thing, but in good audio iron may approximate a resistor 20X the nominal impedance, or 4KΩ across the audio band.

These are complex impedances but I'll be lazy and treat them as resistors: since no resonances are significant (ignoring leakage inductance) my error will be a few dB or a half-octave here or there. I'm not computing a specific transformer, just showing the basic trend that all mike transformers must follow.

So we have:
10K||200Ω||200K||4K =180Ω at 20Hz,
10K||2K||20K||4K =1.1K at 200Hz,
10K||20K||2K||4K at =1.1K 2KHz,
10K||200K||200Ω||4K =180Ω at 20KHz.

A little higher for high-quality transformers, but pretty much 1K to 2K across the audio band, sagging at the upper and lower band limits.
 
[quote author="alk509"][quote author="caps"]I thought mic. input transformers generally had primary impedances around 150 to 200 ohm roughly?[/quote]

Mic input transformers have primary impedances equal to whatever is on the secondary side, times the inverse of the square of the turns ratio. So a typical tube input, for example, (1:10 tx, 1M grid resistor) has an input impedance of 1000000/10^2=10K. A 150 Ohm mic input would be pretty useless for the most part, since you would get roughly half the voltage transfer and S/N ratio compared to a proper high impedance input.

Peace,
Al.[/quote]


Ok, I think Im getting it. I really feel quite stupid having to go through all this and still as questions! :oops:

Ok, we know that TX's have no given impedance, they reflect impedance , by square of the turns ratio. In your above example, what impedance is the mic actually seeing.

I understand that, to figure that out, we would have to now know what load is being connected to the secondary no?


And PRR, thanks again for your thoughts. I dont understand alot of it, but what I do I take, and the rest gives me something to go away and think about. :thumb:
 
PRR, thank you for your masterly post (sat 3rd Dec) that showed how dynamic mics operate into either a high or low impedance. I'm inclined to agree with your comments about RCA mic amps (and ribbon mics)... they were misdirecting the customers!

BTW, in my own work on checking various types of capacitor mics, I found that there are a large number of mics that exhibit extemely low source impedance; all the less expensive Neumann range and most of the Chinese capacitors (which is most microphones, period!) The actual source impedance measured from 10 ohms to about 50 ohms except for the AKG mics that I tried, which consistantly held on to 200 ohms.
Tube mics mostly measured around 150 ohms. ALL the mics checked either stated or inferred that they were '200 ohm' mics.

BUT as we all keep saying... plug it in and turn it up.... if it sounds good, use it.
 
Meanwhile, I'd take issue with Hugh Robjohns' implied assertion that microphones were originally ribbon and moving coil, with condensers arriving a good deal later. They were there at least from the beginning of electrical sound recording in 1925; a condenser mic was part of the specification of the recording system developed by Western Electric and licensed by the record companies.

Peace,
Paul
 
Some of the transformerless microphones have build out resistors of 47ohms to 100 ohms on the output legs. I need to check but I think my rode k2 and nt1000 has 100ohms in each output leg.

Ted posted " The actual source impedance measured from 10 ohms to about 50 ohms" could you name a transformerless microphone that has under 100ohm total output I have not seen one with lower than 47ohms in the leg.

Now I have not measure or or even thought much about the Schoeps type output Z . Matched PNP EFs with 6.8k emitter resistors(the phantom resistors in the preamp) would need to know the Hfe of the transistors and the emitter to +48V voltage for the emitter currents
 
> capacitor mics, I found that there are a large number of mics that exhibit extemely low source impedance

Right. For one tube or one FET, your only hope is to match the plate resistance or FET drain resistor, and they generally aim square for like 150.

But when you get to many-transistor mikes like my AKG414 w/transformer, even some of the push-pull emitter followers, you end up with feedback techniques and near-zero output impedance. Some designers think this is a good thing, others feel that a hundred ohms does no harm and may be better for loads that expect some source impedance (transformer high-end can be optimized either way, but a winding optimized for ~200Ω source may ring like a bell with zero-ohm source).

> we know that TX's have no given impedance, ... to figure that out, we would have to now know what load is being connected to the secondary no?

In this case: no and yes.

Think this way: there are "two kinds" of transformers. Power transformers, and voltage transformers. They may actually be the same transformer: the difference is how we use them and what we expect from them.

There is a power transformer on the pole in front of your house. 95% of the power that goes into it comes out of it. Impedance is reflected almost exactly: you turn on more lights, the primary acts like a lower impedance. Audio loudspeaker transformers, and 600Ω line transformers, are also power transformers, and reflect impedance.

But what is the impedance of a vacuum tube or FET grid? A 1Meg resistor was mentioned but we often don't need one. For bass and midrange, the input of a tube or FET is about as close to infinite as we can find. (It gets significant at the top of the audio band....) A tube/FET eats only voltage, no current, no power.

So what is the impedance into a 1:10 transformer loaded with infinity? ∞/(10^2) == ∞. That seems to defy some law of nature. Even if we pencil 200Meg, it leads to absurd results. If we actually try it, we never really get ∞ or even 2meg. In fact we see about the same thing at the primary whether or not there is a tube on the other side. It appears that the transformer is eating more power or energy than the tube grid, and this is true. Considered as a power transformer, it is crappy. But since the power required in the tube grid is very near zero, we don't care about power efficiency. We only care that the transformer does not load the mike excessively. So we design the transfo without regard for the grid load.

But wait: if the grid load does not matter, why not wind 1:20 or 1:100 and get free gain? Aside from the fact that this leads to wire too fine to wind, there is a place where an audio voltage transformer does handle power:

The input capacitance of a tube is like 250pFd. The capacitance of a transformer winding is about 250pFd. That gives 500pFd at the secondary. This reflects back to the primary as 250pFd*10^2= 50,000pFd. The reactance of 50,000pFd at 20KHz is 159 ohms. This means the 150Ω mike is significantly loaded and the transformer has to pass energy efficiently at 20KHz.

You can fiddle the numbers a bit. PA transformers often did not aim for 20KHz. FETs have lower capacitance. Winding capacitance can be reduced (though not without other compromise). But basically you can't get 20KHz response if you try to wind the secondary for reflected source impedance higher than about 15K-30K. The ratio isn't really an issue, but once you pick a source impedance like 150Ω or 200Ω you have pretty well capped your turns ratio. In effect, you raise the ratio (free gain) until the tube and winding capacitance load the source at the top of whatever you consider the audio band. And then at the top of the band the input impedance will BE your minimum designed load on the source.

> I'd take issue with Hugh Robjohns' implied assertion that microphones were originally ribbon and moving coil, with condensers arriving a good deal later.

I mumbled on that but let it lay as historical trivia. All mike types have deep history, often running back before there were amplifiers to make them practical. Each type went in and out of fashion in different countries at different times.

There is a deeper issue: power and impedance.

The condenser is actually the weakest commonly used mike type. It can be designed for nice high voltage, but the output impedance is like 50pFd, too weak to drive a yard of cable well, or even to drive some tube grids. So a condenser HAS to have an amplifier AT the element (or very close), which may be awkward. However, once you get over the awkwardness, you can have an output as strong as you want. Line-level output condenser mikes have been made, were apparently common in a sector of German PA.

The crystal is superficially a condenser but with solid-state transducer (and normally with a mechanical transformer driving a hefty crystal), and can drive several yards of cable well. This was good enough to make crystals dominant in low-price PA work for several decades.

The dynamics have much larger power outputs, but low impedance leading to output voltage too low to drive a grid well. A ribbon always ends up sub-ohm with sub-microvolt output. A nice dynamic levers this up to 10 ohms and sub-millivolt. The voltages are low but now we have some power and can step-up with transformers. But if you put a 0.1Ω:15KΩ transformer at the amp, with a few yards of cable to the ribbon, the >0.1Ω of the cable will dim the power delivered to the transformer. If we put that transfo at the mike, cable capacitance will kill the treble. For practical size/cost wire, the line should work around 20Ω to 1,000Ω, depending who writes the specifications for length, performance, and cost. Lines with meters on them like higher impedance so the voltage overcomes rectifier loss, and if long such lines could be equalized. Microphones never drive meters, might work short-line one day and long-line another day and should not need re-EQ depending on the line-length, so lower Z is favored. In any case, we end up with a transformer at the mike and a transformer at the tube.

A fairly late development was dynamics with very fine wire working directly at ~150Ω or higher (I have some wound for 900Ω). But note that the ubiquitous SM58 is old-school: 10Ω internally with a step-up transformer.

Before tubes existed, there were several mike types, but the carbon button was by far the most common. The diaphragm+button mechanical layout puts pretty good acoustic power to the button, the carbon grains give good change of resistance which can easily be made similar to line and earphone impedance, but the killer trick is that a carbon mike needs DC power and IS an amplifier that can deliver line-level directly. It isn't a very linear amplifier and early broadcasting used push-pull double-button carbon mikes to lessen the nasties. It isn't a very quiet amplifier, marginal for AM radio use. But before tubes, and even into the tube era, carbon was king.
 
It's interesting to think of a carbon mic as an 'amplifier'.... it's actually a variable resistor in a current loop.
The great advantage of a current loop is that the current at any point in the circuit is the same as at any other point, therefore the 'quality' at the microphone (carbon element) is exactly the same as at the other end of a cable, and that cable can be as long as you like (within reason... allowing for the DC resistance of the wire).

Bring back carbon mics I say! :wink: Then there will be no need for any sort of mic amps. :?
 
[quote author="PRR"]

But wait: if the grid load does not matter, why not wind 1:20 or 1:100 and get free gain? Aside from the fact that this leads to wire too fine to wind, there is a place where an audio voltage transformer does handle power:

The input capacitance of a tube is like 250pFd. The capacitance of a transformer winding is about 250pFd. That gives 500pFd at the secondary. This reflects back to the primary as 250pFd*10^2= 50,000pFd. The reactance of 50,000pFd at 20KHz is 159 ohms. This means the 150Ω mike is significantly loaded and the transformer has to pass energy efficiently at 20KHz.

[/quote]

Awesome PRR. Once again, making me think, and thats how we learn, I hope! :0)

So I guess one could say, in a perfect scenario of no capacitance factor with either tube or trandformer, connecting directly to the grid could work ok. Work, not necessarily meaning work "well".

I see that there is a point of diminsihing returns and perhaps skwed frequency response by going higher and higher with input impedance.


Given we DO have capacitance in the order you have stated (ONE reason anyway), we use a gird resistor to give a value (1Meg as seen often), to reflect back via the turns ratio squared of the secondary, to give the desired impedance for the mic to see. Lets say the defacto 1.5 - 2 K Ohm. A nice high impedance for the mic to work into .



hmm, I think anyway. :grin:

Your post is printed, Ill go sit down with a cigarette for a while and pnder some more. Thanks again for taking the time, and to others here offering info as well.


It will eventually sink into my thick skull :0)
 
> The great advantage of a current loop is that the current at any point in the circuit is the same as at any other point

Only if line leakage is negligible.

In modern times of plastic cable, this is true for DC, though cable capacitance will leak signal current before the reciever. In the Old Days of open wire on wet poles, leakage was not negligible.

Although the telephone DC path is a constant current loop, I think the signal path has to be seen more as matched impedances. The sweet thing about a carbon mike is that it can easily be made about the same impedance as a long line (square-root of series and shunt impedances); happily, moving-iron earphones can also be scaled to line impedance. If not for this 3-way impedance match, telephony would not be possible without amplifiers.

Even so, non-amplified telephones are really lame. The level at the ear can not be a lot less than the level at the mouth or the talker will have to shout excessively. You can get a fair seal on the ear but not on the mouth. You can't get 100% efficiency over the voice band in a mike or speaker, and telephone systems need long (lossy) lines to get enough customers to make money.

Yes, a carbon mike is an amplifier just like a tube. A tube varies its plate resistance against a plate resistor or other audio impedance, and turns dull DC power into audio power; carbon mike does the same. The audio electrical output of a carbon mike is greater than the acoustic power that arrives at the diaphragm. While this may be hard to see on a mike, consider the amplifiers WE used on long lines before tubes. They jammed a diaphragmless earphone (passive, efficiency obviously <100%) against a diaphragmless carbon-mike. This allowed the line length to be raised from a dozen miles to hundreds of miles without heroic wires. The audio electric power output of this contraption was clearly larger than the audio electric power input (but of course far less than the DC battery power consumed). Not a great amplifier, but it did work.

> Bring back carbon mics I say!

I think someone did: put old telco elements in snazzy housings with the interface. It has "a sound". But I think it steps-down to modern-day mike level to avoid confusing customers.
 

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