Diy Monitors - to build or not to build PART II

OK, here's my idea after few months of thinking about :roll:
I was forced to think about because i was very happy with my new studio soffits, but found that my Tannoy AMS8's sounds weak in the new environment. And another reason is that I'm limited with depth of soffits to about 35-40cm and there is no so much competitors in main studio monitors to fit in that tray...
Initial idea was to avoid crossover much as possible, so i started from some extended range driver in the middle, crossed with woofers as low is possible and tweeter high enough, depending on the mid driver possibilities. All drivers will be sealed to avoid delay group.
Here is list of drivers I'm thinking about. Hope that will figure the right ones soon "with a little help of my friends"
Middle- Visaton B200
Fostex FE208 sigma (not in production anymore, but i have pair available )
maybe CSS-FR125 in diapolito but seems impossible because they are rated for some 30W and have 86db of sense :cry
For sub bass i decided to go sealed as I mentioned before and not bigger than 12inch, so pair of them on both side. Low-passed around 100hz 12db/oct active.
Not so much drivers to go deep enough sealed so, i have just two of them.
HI-VI 10.8
Peerless 830845
For tweeters there is lot of them like Scan speak Revelator, an will found some depending from mid driver sensitivity. ( will be nice to cross them passive, hope around 5-10khz)
Huh! That's it :wink:
Will be happy to hear all comments about



BTW, here's pic of my studio with flush mounted Tannoy's.
Happy new year :guinness:

You might want to build something like the Nautilus 801 which is very highly valued studio monitor (yes it's designed first to be used as studio monitor not as a high-end hifi speaker). The 15" bass is crossed to 6" Kevlar midrange @350 Hz and this to 1" diamond cone tweeter @4kHz. Crossing over at any higher frequency is very difficult. You could use a wide-range element for the midrange, but the distortion figures would be much worse. But give it a try anyway. John Krutke has tested many tweeters and midranges as well as fullranges (http://www.zaphaudio.com), see which drivers he suggested.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/images/SpeakerModel/images/801D/801D_Main_image.jpg

You might want to build something like the Nautilus 801

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not exactly, but idea comes from speakers of that kind.... Maybe some Westlake's were inspiration. Crossing around 350hz is maybe perfect from side of linearity and distortion, but my idea is to listen the mix from one source, so idea with splitting music at that freq doesn't looks musical to me. Yes, I'm jumping into the compromise between linearity and musicality, but that's worth of trying... I hope so.
What's looks important to me is uniform distortion figure, not amount of. That's why I'm thinking about Visa B-200.
About John Krutke, thanks, nice reading, but can't find nothing about drivers I'm thinking about. :?

Ok. Regarding B200 you could find some information on this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=19253&highlight=darkstar

Also diyaudio.com is a very (?) good source for full-range speaker information (and disinformation unfortunately like any forums).

Btw. What's wrong with your Tannoys actually? I think these should be used so that the speakers are directed a little bit off-axis (right or left) from the listener as the on-axis response is not so linear because of the waveguide (woofer). Also the Tannoys I have listened have had quite a hyped sound in them. Fullrange speakers can be very musical, but I don't believe that any speaker can tell the truth alone. So it's good to have multiple alternative views to music you listen to. Some more accurate some more "musical" (the word I hate to use with speakers as it usually gives an hint of a speaker with less accurate response). Anyway, last year I spent almost half an year listening (not mixing on them though) speakers I originally made for my daughter, these had just single 3" drivers (Tangband W3-871s's) in TL box (the design was called "Needle").

Edit: These drivers are quite popular in Finland among high-end hifi enthusiasts:

http://www.phy-hp.com/English/Products/Drive_Units.html

Ok. Regarding B200 you could find some information on this thread:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=19253&highlight=darkstar

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Thanks, nice reading :wink:

Btw. What's wrong with your Tannoys actually? I think these should be used so that the speakers are directed a little bit off-axis (right or left) from the listener as the on-axis response is not so linear because of the waveguide (woofer)

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Nothing wrong, that's maybe the best mid-sized tannoy I know, but i they are really "hyped" and that's really opposite from anechoic response in the data sheet! Also, they have some strange activities in the crossed region, so often are pushing me to hide lead vocals in the mix. Simply, they are not translating well on the other systems....
Yes, i will keep them like 2nd monitoring and Auratones like nearfields.

"musical" (the word I hate to use with speakers as it usually gives an hint of a speaker with less accurate response)

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Me too, but can't find better word

Anyway, last year I spent almost half an year listening (not mixing on them though) speakers I originally made for my daughter, these had just single 3" drivers (Tangband W3-871s's) in TL box (the design was called "Needle")

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Why not checking your mix with small fullrange :?:
I have small ACR fe83 fostex and like to refresh my ears with them!

OK, here's some upgrade.
Definitely i will go with Visa B200 wide-range, and two Peerless 830845 for subs.
For tweeters I'm still thinking about :roll:
SEAS EXCEL T25CF002
MOREL mdt 33 or Supreme 110
SCAN SPEAK D2905/990000 revelator
Maybe some other :?: :?:
Since I decided to go with active crossover I don't care about sensitivity matching, only off-axis response can be critical.
That's why crossing points can be challenge. Maybe DSP digital crossover can be solution :roll: I'm not digital sound oriented , but maybe here I have to make some compromise. Will be nice to experiment with cross-points from software and avoid never ending r-c re-soldering :green:
BTW did some of you have any experience with Xilica xm1030 DSP module? Looks interesting http://www.xilica.com/products/xm/xm1030.html

Not familiar with that DSP but it looks like and ideal device though (it must be expensive). If you want be cheap use a PC with a bunch of VST plugins (or make your own) and a VST host (I think on diyaudio.com there's a guide for the setup).

Regarding tweeters when you are crossing over at relatively high frequency you need a physically small tweater because you must have it as close to the midrange as possible to avoid lobing, and secondly because of the off-axis response (less beaming). So the Peerless 811435 might be a good candidate for the tweeter (also Zaph liked it). However, if you can implement a very steep DSP FIR linear phase filter for the crossover you could use any tweeter you like. Just delay the tweeter signal so that the tweeter and midrange appear to be on the same vertical axis (and distance from the listening position).

XXSL is good choice for the woofer, SLS might do as well or be even better with the B200 (XXSL might be too heavy and slow compared to it). I'm not sure if B200 can go to 100 Hz properly, also there might be heavy IM if it will.

Not familiar with that DSP but it looks like and ideal device though (it must be expensive)

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I'm not familiar too. Price is around 250EU per module. So, 500EU for 2ch 3band crossover.

If you want be cheap use a PC with a bunch of VST plugins (or make your own) and a VST host (I think on diyaudio.com there's a guide for the setup).

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Not sure that will be cheaper with some decent AD/DA, also have to deal with latency.

So the Peerless 811435 might be a good candidate for the tweeter

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Thanks, I like it especially because of price. Never listened Peerless tweeters, hope that 811435 can sound revelator like in the 10k range :?:

XXSL is good choice for the woofer, SLS might do as well or be even better with the B200 (XXSL might be too heavy and slow compared to it)

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Thanks, but SLS range are typical ported sub, and doesn't fit in my sealed idea. I think that small delay group and almost flat phase response can be goal in this design. With XXLS sealed is possible to go F3 around 40hz, that's not too low, but will work for most demands.

I'm not sure if B200 can go to 100 Hz properly, also there might be heavy IM if it will.

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From response It's possible but term "heavy" is not 100% clear to me. Are you pointing to character of sound, or something else?
Here's the B200 response. I'm not sure about of-axis response over 3khz, everything else looks nice to me.

Regarding mid-wide-range driver and digital DSP I would like to hear more comments before I jump into DIY. Simply, I'm not sure did I choose right one :roll:
Thanks :green:

Here's the sketch of my idea :wink:

Actually the tweeter "Zaph" Krutke found excellent was the Vifa D26NC55, not the Peerless (sorry my mistake, though Zaph has used the 811435's in his older designs). Unfortunately I can't find the D26NC55 anymore on Tymphany site. They now call all Vifa's "Peerless vline" ( http://www.tymphany.com/products_Peerless_vline.html ).

With XXLS you can go very low if you use small sealed box (~30-40L for single driver) and cross it over at very low (~25 Hz) frequency (2nd order Butterworth) to compensate for the increased Q. Another 2nd order LP will give you the final response, use WinISD ( http://www.linearteam.org ) to simulate the crossover and box tuning.

DIYing speakers is taking risks, and if you find B200's will not work with you just sell them away. They look nice anyway, pretty basket. If they only had put a tweeter into dust cap (like on Tannoys) it would be an excellent driver. Maybe somebody could actually fit a small tweeter into it to make it a coaxial driver for perfect tweeter alignment.

Actually the tweeter "Zaph" Krutke found excellent was the Vifa D26NC55, not the Peerless (sorry my mistake, though Zaph has used the 811435's in his older designs). Unfortunately I can't find the D26NC55 anymore on Tymphany site. They now call all Vifa's "Peerless vline"

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No problem, i figure that.
BTW here's the store with nice prices and looks it's not so far from you :wink: (Netherlands).
http://www.bmm-electronics.nl/Product.asp?Product_ID=3661

With XXLS you can go very low if you use small sealed box (~30-40L for single driver) and cross it over at very low (~25 Hz) frequency (2nd order Butterworth) to compensate for the increased Q. Another 2nd order LP will give you the final response, use WinISD ( http://www.linearteam.org ) to simulate the crossover and box tuning.

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Thanks for Q info :guinness:

DIYing speakers is taking risks, and if you find B200's will not work with you just sell them away

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I desperately need some nice OB in my apartment

Maybe somebody could actually fit a small tweeter into it to make it a coaxial driver for perfect tweeter alignment.

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I was thinking about too, but no idea how to do that
Maybe something like this?
http://me-geithain.de/index2.html?eng
This can maybe help?
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=21
Or this can be nice DIY perfect aligned studio monitor :idea:

[quote author="Moby"]This can maybe help?
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=21
Or this can be nice DIY perfect aligned studio monitor :idea:[/quote]



not convinced that the drivers are as perfectly time aligned as you might think.
close enough that some x-over tricks could solve things

quote from site
" TM1A essentially is a 2-way enclosed style speaker system, frequency response varies from 800 to 20Hz. We suggest you that settle the divided frequency point among 2.24 and 4.5Hz; when the bass frequency point is among 1 and 2KHz, lower the crossover level as 12-24dB/oct crossovers. "

even at the widest of 1 k and 4.5k
it all seems too close together to warrant the added complication of 3 way

down to 800 is good I guess but a really good large dome can get down around 1.2 to 1.5 in a system
SO in both cases the x-over point is right in the middle.

I don't see the point of 3 way UNLESS you can get that mid range handling the bulk of the human voice
lows at 600 or 400 ... as low as possible
highs up and well into the siblant area of 6 to 8 k ...
more than 3 octaves ???

some ... but very few coned or domed drivers can do this.

not convinced that the drivers are as perfectly time aligned as you might think.
close enough that some x-over tricks could solve things

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Thanks for comment. True, that's also jumps out of my idea with wide range driver :wink:

Looks that my idea with wide-rangers isn't so great
I really appreciate work and knowledge of Thomas Barefoot, and to be honest I was in status quo waiting for his comment about.
Here's the argument critics of my idea by BF :wink:

I've never designed a system with an extended range driver plus a super-tweeter like this. I'm not a fan of extended range drivers and it's a complete fallacy that they don't contain crossovers. Extended range drivers have a mechanical crossover. The dustcap is rigidly fixed to the voice coil while the cone is coupled via some sort of flexible energy absorbent material. This acts as a low pass filter, isolating the high frequencies from the cone. The dustcap has a natural 6dB/ocatave high pass roll off due to falling radiation impedance at lower frequencies.

So, this is in fact a crossover. And it's rather poor, imprecise crossover that is subject to mechanical degradation over time. For something non-critical like the Killatone, a full range driver is fine. But I personally wouldn't go this way for a serious monitor.
So, I searched a little again, and found that SS solist can be really nice candidate for my needs.
Also, if I remember correctly Thomas suggested this project somewhere
But i would really like to do that active crossed, and considering that Kit is really unnecessary . Also, maybe some modification is possible. If I go with woofers i really don't know does this solist have to be ported
http://www.madisound.com/solist.html

the woofer the box and the port go together as a system
with a box this size you probably do need to be ported


It has been mentioned before
but
The Proteus has a lot to offer.
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1105/page_1.php

Even as a single woofer version. You said you want to go active so their x-over is not an issue. The same amp for each driver and an active x-over even in a standard 24 dB LR will bring good results.

The basic box design brings some physical time alignment to the drivers and the simple LR will be a good start.

After that you will need test equipment and some knowledge. Impilse testing and then some filter modelling to get want you want. I have always been into the theory that a LR system of BOTH drivers and filter will get you there if the physical alignment is good in the first place.


The above article is not the only one out their on the DIY Proteus.

I built the solist a few years ago and have been very happy. I also built the killitones that barefoot designed and use them too. I also have a pair of old JBL 4406 that I use. If my mixes sound good on all three, they sound good every where I go, no surprises.

I use the solists all the time for mixing and they are really all I need now, but I still check on the others just out of habit but I don't really need them any more.

[quote author="Kev"]It has been mentioned before
but
The Proteus has a lot to offer.
http://www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1105/page_1.php
[/quote]

Tony Gee's Proteus and other designs have moved here:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/

Maybe you could kindly ask Tony if he did a new special studio monitor design for you / us (and call to visit this forum, too)?

Btw. JLM BAM looks very much like Proteus, different drivers though:
http://www.jlmaudio.com/Active Monitor.htm

Guys, this Topic started to be more interesting. Thanks :guinness: :sam:
Kev,

with a box this size you probably do need to be ported

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I agree, but I planned to add sub section crossed around 100hz. As full-range monitor, I agree, both, Solist and Proteus have to be ported.

t has been mentioned before
but
The Proteus has a lot to offer

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Beside Solist, Proteus is really interesting project. Did somebody here around tryed to build that speaker? Any comment about sound?

I built the solist a few years ago and have been very happy

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This looks promising :wink:

Maybe you could kindly ask Tony if he did a new special studio monitor design for you / us (and call to visit this forum, too)?

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That can be great. I will do that :!:
So, It's up to me. :wink: I will do that right now. Hope Tony is in the mood. :thumb:

As I promised, I contacted Tony.

Hello Sergio, I'm afraid I am a little busy to join up to your forum but I can answer any questions you have via e-mail. When designing a studio monitor (or any other speaker) you have to set the criteria first. For example an in-wall mounted speaker will need a totally different crossover design compared to the same drivers mounted in a free standing monitor. Also things like max SPL are important, how large is the monitoring room, etc. I can advise the Proteus due to its reativly high efficiency and easy amplifier load and natural midrange with a slightly romantic approach to music. Treble is soft and silky. Another design of mine, the DD8-MkII should also work well as a studio monitor due to its very clear and articulate presentation without being fatigueing. Dynamics and power handling are also very good. regards,Tony

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So, i asked few question. :wink:
If he will find some time to help I would be happy to share with LAB :green: