capnspoony
Well-known member
where do you find vast quantities of egg cartons?
or do you eat more eggs than gaston from beauty and the beast?
-richie
or do you eat more eggs than gaston from beauty and the beast?
-richie
soundproof my room!
- Thread starter capnspoony
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AnalogPackrat
Well-known member
[quote author="capnspoony"]I ripped up the floor a bit today to check on that
they are 2X6 beams spaced every foot.. Also the attic extends over our porch leaving a wall i can stradle my wait on. I'll build the room half over the porch and half on my studio room.
Does anyone object to having 4-5 hundred pounds of material on something like that?
[/quote]
2x6s are typical for attic "flooring" (really ceiling joists). Remember that they are also already supporting the mass of drywall ceiling on their underside. Looking at standard joist span tables...you get about 10' span using 2x6 on 12 inch centers with 10psf dead load and 40psf live load.
Not that simple...
Not to burst your bubble, but one 4x8 sheet of 1/2" drywall weighs over 50 lbs. 1/2 is the thin stuff. Lining that 8x10x8 room with one layer of 1/2" puts you over 500 lbs. If you really wanted dead, you'd have something like 3-4 times that thickness (in several layers).
A P
they are 2X6 beams spaced every foot.. Also the attic extends over our porch leaving a wall i can stradle my wait on. I'll build the room half over the porch and half on my studio room.
Does anyone object to having 4-5 hundred pounds of material on something like that?
[/quote]
2x6s are typical for attic "flooring" (really ceiling joists). Remember that they are also already supporting the mass of drywall ceiling on their underside. Looking at standard joist span tables...you get about 10' span using 2x6 on 12 inch centers with 10psf dead load and 40psf live load.
Not that simple...
Not to burst your bubble, but one 4x8 sheet of 1/2" drywall weighs over 50 lbs. 1/2 is the thin stuff. Lining that 8x10x8 room with one layer of 1/2" puts you over 500 lbs. If you really wanted dead, you'd have something like 3-4 times that thickness (in several layers).
A P
capnspoony
Well-known member
we have a dropped ceiling in our apt. no drywall.
If I end up building this, I plan to only start with one layer of drywall .. since I'm going to be another story up. I set my kit up today in the attic played for a few minutes and had a friend walk around downstairs in our place to see how loud it was...
still loud.
when he went down to the first floor.. it sounded like a radio was on.
that's with 0 isolation.
I did know how heavy drywall is err roughly
I've worked construction for four summers. :wink:
9 sheets for the walls if I keep it to an 8 X 10 room .. brings me 450lbs + lumber... if its 50 lbs a sheet
most of the leakage was coming from the stair well up to the attic so I need to seal that off most importantly.
thank you for all of the input everyone has given thus far... it seems obvious to me now that mass is the name of the game but I would not have thought of it that way on my own considering the years of being surrounded by squishy pretty foam in studios. :green:
richie
If I end up building this, I plan to only start with one layer of drywall .. since I'm going to be another story up. I set my kit up today in the attic played for a few minutes and had a friend walk around downstairs in our place to see how loud it was...
still loud.
when he went down to the first floor.. it sounded like a radio was on.
that's with 0 isolation.
I did know how heavy drywall is err roughly
I've worked construction for four summers. :wink:
9 sheets for the walls if I keep it to an 8 X 10 room .. brings me 450lbs + lumber... if its 50 lbs a sheet
most of the leakage was coming from the stair well up to the attic so I need to seal that off most importantly.
thank you for all of the input everyone has given thus far... it seems obvious to me now that mass is the name of the game but I would not have thought of it that way on my own considering the years of being surrounded by squishy pretty foam in studios. :green:
richie
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
I'll pile on here: isolation is the thing you want. Foam doesn't do a thing for that. Get the Auralex articles. Read it, then read it again. I learn something new and useful every time I read it.
>>>the room sounds AMAZING!
That is where you really want to record drums, imo. I've tried recording drums in an okay room and in a good sounding LARGE room. Its easy to figure out which one gave the better results. And you can't get better isolation in your apt building :grin:
>>>By using three different thicknesses of drywall you will improve STC over using three equal thickness panels by substantial amount.
I've never heard this before and I can't see right off how this matters as long as you have an equivalent mass. Can you sight a source or explain this more?
>>>Parallel walls help reduce standing waves and flutter.
I think you meant to say NON-parallel walls. Also I think that rectangular spaces make it easier to calculate the room modes, but not much else. Round or hexagonal spaces ought to be avoided for listening or recording spaces, imo. But if isolation is all you are after, this is moot.
Hope that helps!
Charlie
>>>the room sounds AMAZING!
That is where you really want to record drums, imo. I've tried recording drums in an okay room and in a good sounding LARGE room. Its easy to figure out which one gave the better results. And you can't get better isolation in your apt building :grin:
>>>By using three different thicknesses of drywall you will improve STC over using three equal thickness panels by substantial amount.
I've never heard this before and I can't see right off how this matters as long as you have an equivalent mass. Can you sight a source or explain this more?
>>>Parallel walls help reduce standing waves and flutter.
I think you meant to say NON-parallel walls. Also I think that rectangular spaces make it easier to calculate the room modes, but not much else. Round or hexagonal spaces ought to be avoided for listening or recording spaces, imo. But if isolation is all you are after, this is moot.
Hope that helps!
Charlie
capnspoony
Well-known member
thanks charlie!
I'm not sure exactly what I'll end up doing in the end but as of right now.. i've been reading what everyone has said and have learned theres a lot more to a room that I had ever previously conceived!
regardless of where I end up playing drums I'm certainly going to be prepared for the advantages and pitfalls of the space im recording in.
thanks everyone.
oh I did a little recording in the church no mix .. just faders up .. id like everone to hear it.. how do I post it on here?
-richie
I'm not sure exactly what I'll end up doing in the end but as of right now.. i've been reading what everyone has said and have learned theres a lot more to a room that I had ever previously conceived!
regardless of where I end up playing drums I'm certainly going to be prepared for the advantages and pitfalls of the space im recording in.
thanks everyone.
oh I did a little recording in the church no mix .. just faders up .. id like everone to hear it.. how do I post it on here?
-richie
Greg
Well-known member
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"]>>>By using three different thicknesses of drywall you will improve STC over using three equal thickness panels by substantial amount.
I've never heard this before and I can't see right off how this matters as long as you have an equivalent mass. Can you sight a source or explain this more?
[/quote]
I think the idea is that each thickness will have different resonant frequency, thus providing better isolation overall. However, I don't think I buy that entirely. Once the leaf is constructed, I feel it will still have a single, perhaps averaged, resonant frequency. I feel that mass is more important than different thicknesses.
I have heard this mentioned several times on other forum. I would also be interested in a source on this.
I've never heard this before and I can't see right off how this matters as long as you have an equivalent mass. Can you sight a source or explain this more?
[/quote]
I think the idea is that each thickness will have different resonant frequency, thus providing better isolation overall. However, I don't think I buy that entirely. Once the leaf is constructed, I feel it will still have a single, perhaps averaged, resonant frequency. I feel that mass is more important than different thicknesses.
I have heard this mentioned several times on other forum. I would also be interested in a source on this.
cannikin
Well-known member
After Sound Proofing a Room that was 9 x 8 - I really REALLY recommend you purchase one of those Sound Proof rooms that come in sections and you can always just disconnect it and move it to you new place... especially if you rent.
For the amount of investment - Labor -- materials - Sonic Drywall - Foam Insulation etc ( FLOATING THE FLOOR SUX) it will cost you around 5,000 to 20,000 to do it right.
So spend the money upfront and buy something that you could move when you move....
I have to tear down my room now --- because I'm moving -- Now I have to get a dumpster that another 1,000.00 OH and I was able to salvage about 1,000 worth of materials .... thats it!
I should have bought an AMp Isloation BOx and Iso - Booth in the frist place.
good luck
For the amount of investment - Labor -- materials - Sonic Drywall - Foam Insulation etc ( FLOATING THE FLOOR SUX) it will cost you around 5,000 to 20,000 to do it right.
So spend the money upfront and buy something that you could move when you move....
I have to tear down my room now --- because I'm moving -- Now I have to get a dumpster that another 1,000.00 OH and I was able to salvage about 1,000 worth of materials .... thats it!
I should have bought an AMp Isloation BOx and Iso - Booth in the frist place.
good luck
TomWaterman
Well-known member
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"]I think you meant to say NON-parallel walls.[/quote]
True enough, a typo. I corrected my previous post.
[quote author="Greg"]I think the idea is that each thickness will have different resonant frequency, thus providing better isolation overall. However, I don't think I buy that entirely. Once the leaf is constructed, I feel it will still have a single, perhaps averaged, resonant frequency. I feel that mass is more important than different thicknesses.
I have heard this mentioned several times on other forum. I would also be interested in a source on this.[/quote]
Guys, I am trying to find my info on this. I did have a proper published source for this I'm sure, as I used it for a paper 1 1/2 yrs ago. There's part of my brain that says it is Alton Everest...but I'm going to have to raid the library when I get a chance to find the theory. I remember the what but not the why quite often! I'm sure I had calculated examples and cited acknowledged measurements....but thinking about it harder, I think there's a LOT more to it....and I should do some practical measurement if I ever get the chance instead of waffling on the web. Nothing better than a personal realworld test of a theory.
I think Greg is heading in the right direction. However I'm starting to think it has more to do with differing density.
So perhaps it was combined layers of MDF and layers of gypsum.....gonna have to find those books dammit.
I'm sure there is some merit to it, because I am so positive I noted at least a 10dB increase in TL. In fact I think the studios where I work are built using this technique too, so they could meet the noise spec for the rented academic building.
Cannikin makes a good point too that making any acoustic treatment or isolation removable...hanging traps and diffusors should be simple enough, even if you can't move your iso treatment.
I'll be back with accredited info before I crawl back into my hole.
-Tom :grin:
True enough, a typo. I corrected my previous post.
[quote author="Greg"]I think the idea is that each thickness will have different resonant frequency, thus providing better isolation overall. However, I don't think I buy that entirely. Once the leaf is constructed, I feel it will still have a single, perhaps averaged, resonant frequency. I feel that mass is more important than different thicknesses.
I have heard this mentioned several times on other forum. I would also be interested in a source on this.[/quote]
Guys, I am trying to find my info on this. I did have a proper published source for this I'm sure, as I used it for a paper 1 1/2 yrs ago. There's part of my brain that says it is Alton Everest...but I'm going to have to raid the library when I get a chance to find the theory. I remember the what but not the why quite often! I'm sure I had calculated examples and cited acknowledged measurements....but thinking about it harder, I think there's a LOT more to it....and I should do some practical measurement if I ever get the chance instead of waffling on the web. Nothing better than a personal realworld test of a theory.
I think Greg is heading in the right direction. However I'm starting to think it has more to do with differing density.
So perhaps it was combined layers of MDF and layers of gypsum.....gonna have to find those books dammit.
I'm sure there is some merit to it, because I am so positive I noted at least a 10dB increase in TL. In fact I think the studios where I work are built using this technique too, so they could meet the noise spec for the rented academic building.
Cannikin makes a good point too that making any acoustic treatment or isolation removable...hanging traps and diffusors should be simple enough, even if you can't move your iso treatment.
I'll be back with accredited info before I crawl back into my hole.
-Tom :grin:
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
>>>I think Greg is heading in the right direction. However I'm starting to think it has more to do with differing density.
I saw that this was probably where you were going originally, but we have to look at the word "density" a little more closely, methinks. The density of gyp board is gonna be pretty consistent from one thickness to the next...don't you think? The mass of the different thicknesses (and thus the resonance) might be different, but does it make any diff if its bonded together tightly? Maybe it would be a different thing if we use a layer of roofing felt between layers to allow them to be a bit isolated from one another instead of bonding as one mass.
>>>So perhaps it was combined layers of MDF and layers of gypsum...
Now this starts to make a bit more sense, but if you are after maximum density, I would think that this would reduce it since I think the MDF is not as high as the gyp board.
Fun discussion!
Charlie
I saw that this was probably where you were going originally, but we have to look at the word "density" a little more closely, methinks. The density of gyp board is gonna be pretty consistent from one thickness to the next...don't you think? The mass of the different thicknesses (and thus the resonance) might be different, but does it make any diff if its bonded together tightly? Maybe it would be a different thing if we use a layer of roofing felt between layers to allow them to be a bit isolated from one another instead of bonding as one mass.
>>>So perhaps it was combined layers of MDF and layers of gypsum...
Now this starts to make a bit more sense, but if you are after maximum density, I would think that this would reduce it since I think the MDF is not as high as the gyp board.
Fun discussion!
Charlie
TomWaterman
Well-known member
As far as I'm aware, gypsum density varies quite a lot, and its not that consistent board to board, let alone thickness to thickness.
To cite Eric Desart (Galaxy studios designer in Belgium): "gypsum board density varies 680 kg/m3 to > 1070 kg/m3 depending on type and supplier"
Hmm resonant frequency is used quite differently depending upon the application. In acoustic treatment, we can target specifc freqs by using tuned resonators like a Helmholtz to absorb at their natural reso. But in a mass isolation system we want to push the resonant frequency right down below the lowest signal we want to reproduce in the control room, so we can minimise vibrational coupling. So anything that will lower the average Rf of a layered wall is a good thing.
If we look at simple harmonic motion & spring vibration theory, the resonant frequency is a product of both the springs mass and stiffness (which is related to density).
I think I have been barking up the wrong tree slightly. It should be a sealed mass-spring-mass system (MSM). The spring is an air gap filled with rockwool and the two masses are each side of the wall. To make an internal partition that is not directly coupled to the outside structure we need to float the internal walls and ceiling on a floating floor.
As you can't float the floor, you will have to make do with decoupled walls and ceiling.
To get the best TL out of the MSM wall you need to have differing masses on each side of the rock-wool filled air gap, so one side could be 3 layers of gypsum and the other 4. It is the total mass that counts as does stiffness. Find the most dense gypsum you can. Some may be more expensive but manufactured with sound iso in mind, and you might get away with less layers saving the amount of room used.
SonsofThunder mentioned roofing felt. Maybe you could add a layer of this to the middle of one wall to provide some resonance damping.
Ignore my post on different drywall thicknesses - I think I was full of shit....unless I find a concrete reference some time soon.
Crawling back in to my hole....
-Tom
To cite Eric Desart (Galaxy studios designer in Belgium): "gypsum board density varies 680 kg/m3 to > 1070 kg/m3 depending on type and supplier"
Hmm resonant frequency is used quite differently depending upon the application. In acoustic treatment, we can target specifc freqs by using tuned resonators like a Helmholtz to absorb at their natural reso. But in a mass isolation system we want to push the resonant frequency right down below the lowest signal we want to reproduce in the control room, so we can minimise vibrational coupling. So anything that will lower the average Rf of a layered wall is a good thing.
If we look at simple harmonic motion & spring vibration theory, the resonant frequency is a product of both the springs mass and stiffness (which is related to density).
I think I have been barking up the wrong tree slightly. It should be a sealed mass-spring-mass system (MSM). The spring is an air gap filled with rockwool and the two masses are each side of the wall. To make an internal partition that is not directly coupled to the outside structure we need to float the internal walls and ceiling on a floating floor.
As you can't float the floor, you will have to make do with decoupled walls and ceiling.
To get the best TL out of the MSM wall you need to have differing masses on each side of the rock-wool filled air gap, so one side could be 3 layers of gypsum and the other 4. It is the total mass that counts as does stiffness. Find the most dense gypsum you can. Some may be more expensive but manufactured with sound iso in mind, and you might get away with less layers saving the amount of room used.
SonsofThunder mentioned roofing felt. Maybe you could add a layer of this to the middle of one wall to provide some resonance damping.
Ignore my post on different drywall thicknesses - I think I was full of shit....unless I find a concrete reference some time soon.
Crawling back in to my hole....
-Tom
capnspoony
Well-known member
hey guys ..
after much investigation on the matter .. ive decided this is far too pricey a project to get into to do right at this time
as david pointed out .. i'm only hear for a year .. and as much as i'll miss playing drums in the comfort of my own home .. its not wort the price
but thanks for getting me deeply involved in the subject at hand ..
best
richie
after much investigation on the matter .. ive decided this is far too pricey a project to get into to do right at this time
as david pointed out .. i'm only hear for a year .. and as much as i'll miss playing drums in the comfort of my own home .. its not wort the price
but thanks for getting me deeply involved in the subject at hand ..
best
richie
cannikin
Well-known member
Smart Move... really... Its a big investment - money and labor ... and not worth it when renting.
For now you can get a Vdrum Kit and Fxpansion BFD and your good to go.
( not joking that combination is pretty good -- although you don't have the pleasure feeling the skins vibrate - but if you close your eyes and put on headphones -- its not bad).
For now you can get a Vdrum Kit and Fxpansion BFD and your good to go.
( not joking that combination is pretty good -- although you don't have the pleasure feeling the skins vibrate - but if you close your eyes and put on headphones -- its not bad).
capnspoony
Well-known member
David,
v drums scare me a bit since the feel is entirely different ..
especially with the kick drum
I have a 24inch kick and I have my head as floppy as it can be.
any particular model of v drums you feel I should look into?
Ive been playing around with that idea for four years during college
but never got around to it.
How are those mesh head kicks?
also I saw you head some rack cases for sale .. I was wondering if
you have any more that maybe were beat up: suitable for my first
diy project
best
richie
v drums scare me a bit since the feel is entirely different ..
especially with the kick drum
I have a 24inch kick and I have my head as floppy as it can be.
any particular model of v drums you feel I should look into?
Ive been playing around with that idea for four years during college
but never got around to it.
How are those mesh head kicks?
also I saw you head some rack cases for sale .. I was wondering if
you have any more that maybe were beat up: suitable for my first
diy project
best
richie
You DO need foam. Sealing you and your sound in a small hard box would be brutal. You can play to a 100-head club audience... if you played the same in a room with just one body (yours) of absorption, the sound level would be 100 times higher! So either your ears would bleed all over your drumheads, or you'd play softer, leaving you out of shape when you do play to 100 people.
But that's just for you. You also have Neighbors, who are either the landlords or are at least Senior Tenants who the landlord would listen to before The New Tenant.
The attic is the answer. This gives you an 8-foot "dead air space" between the drums and the Neighbors. You can't make that kind of isolation any other way. Even though heat/cooling is going to be a royal pain, you have to go upstairs.
You will probably still need a massive box, as confirmed by your informal sound survey. "A radio" is one thing, but the constant banging of a solo drummer will get on people's nerves even at low level.
2x6 joists in an unfinished un-windowed attic suggests 20 pounds per square foot design load (living rooms are often 40PSF, bedrooms sometimes 30PSF). If you brought ALL your friends to the attic, shoulder to shoulder, it is in serious danger of collapse. No Joke, it happened in this city last year. Big party on the second floor, entire floor assembly dropped to the first floor. Fortunately nobody downstairs, and nobody seriously hurt. And I suspect this was an old cheap house build before building codes (possibly true balloon framing), and that it was one hell of a party. Unlikely, but don't let it happen to you.
Such floors are designed for Distributed Loads. Boxes of Xmas ornaments. People spaced fairly uniformly (at 20PSF, they have to be 3 feet apart). Don't have a heavy wall at mid-span of the joists. (A wall parallel to the joists may be self-supporting and may drop its endloads near enough to joist supports to not be a real issue.)
> I really REALLY recommend you purchase one of those Sound Proof rooms that come in sections
Wenger has them, has been selling them for 25+ years.
They are coy about the price, for obvious reason.... think $25K+ and up. Gasp! but you can hardly touch their performance (including door and ventilation leaks) for that price in permanent construction, you can't get ordinary labor to build a room this tight, and you can't move permament contruction to a new location. So Wenger sells quite a few of them; it is a good deal for serious musicians (and music schools).
>>By using three different thicknesses of drywall you will improve STC over using three equal thickness panels by substantial amount.
> I've never heard this before and I can't see right off how this matters as long as you have an equivalent mass.
It's a small detail. As Greg says: Each thickness has its own self-resonances; different thicknesses spread the resonances around. If you also use lots of construction glue to bond the layers into a single mass, you may as well use all the same size. In less-gluey work, it may make a small difference using several thicknesses; OTOH the price-break for buying a truckload all the same may allow more mass for the budget (assuming you are budget-limited and not weight-limited as in a 2x6 attic).
I do think the church basement is a good bet for your situation. Be nice to the priest/rabbi and to the sexton or other layperson who manages the place. Be sure the place is neater/cleaner when you leave than when you arrived. Put some of the energy that was going to haul drywall into your attic into paint or shelves or whatever handy-work the church needs done.
> I have my head as floppy as it can be.
Good plan.
But that's just for you. You also have Neighbors, who are either the landlords or are at least Senior Tenants who the landlord would listen to before The New Tenant.
The attic is the answer. This gives you an 8-foot "dead air space" between the drums and the Neighbors. You can't make that kind of isolation any other way. Even though heat/cooling is going to be a royal pain, you have to go upstairs.
You will probably still need a massive box, as confirmed by your informal sound survey. "A radio" is one thing, but the constant banging of a solo drummer will get on people's nerves even at low level.
2x6 joists in an unfinished un-windowed attic suggests 20 pounds per square foot design load (living rooms are often 40PSF, bedrooms sometimes 30PSF). If you brought ALL your friends to the attic, shoulder to shoulder, it is in serious danger of collapse. No Joke, it happened in this city last year. Big party on the second floor, entire floor assembly dropped to the first floor. Fortunately nobody downstairs, and nobody seriously hurt. And I suspect this was an old cheap house build before building codes (possibly true balloon framing), and that it was one hell of a party. Unlikely, but don't let it happen to you.
Such floors are designed for Distributed Loads. Boxes of Xmas ornaments. People spaced fairly uniformly (at 20PSF, they have to be 3 feet apart). Don't have a heavy wall at mid-span of the joists. (A wall parallel to the joists may be self-supporting and may drop its endloads near enough to joist supports to not be a real issue.)
> I really REALLY recommend you purchase one of those Sound Proof rooms that come in sections
Wenger has them, has been selling them for 25+ years.
They are coy about the price, for obvious reason.... think $25K+ and up. Gasp! but you can hardly touch their performance (including door and ventilation leaks) for that price in permanent construction, you can't get ordinary labor to build a room this tight, and you can't move permament contruction to a new location. So Wenger sells quite a few of them; it is a good deal for serious musicians (and music schools).
>>By using three different thicknesses of drywall you will improve STC over using three equal thickness panels by substantial amount.
> I've never heard this before and I can't see right off how this matters as long as you have an equivalent mass.
It's a small detail. As Greg says: Each thickness has its own self-resonances; different thicknesses spread the resonances around. If you also use lots of construction glue to bond the layers into a single mass, you may as well use all the same size. In less-gluey work, it may make a small difference using several thicknesses; OTOH the price-break for buying a truckload all the same may allow more mass for the budget (assuming you are budget-limited and not weight-limited as in a 2x6 attic).
I do think the church basement is a good bet for your situation. Be nice to the priest/rabbi and to the sexton or other layperson who manages the place. Be sure the place is neater/cleaner when you leave than when you arrived. Put some of the energy that was going to haul drywall into your attic into paint or shelves or whatever handy-work the church needs done.
> I have my head as floppy as it can be.
Good plan.
capnspoony
Well-known member
thanks prr!
those rooms sound like a great idea.... 25K "gasp" indeed! a bit much for me to be throwing at a drum room right now.. pretty much all my savings at the moment.
I think I've worked out a deal with the church where I can do chores for practice time.
When I record sessions, I give them a slice of the money.
Its a win win situation.
best
richie :guinness:
those rooms sound like a great idea.... 25K "gasp" indeed! a bit much for me to be throwing at a drum room right now.. pretty much all my savings at the moment.
I think I've worked out a deal with the church where I can do chores for practice time.
When I record sessions, I give them a slice of the money.
Its a win win situation.
best
richie :guinness:
