[BUILD] 1176LN Rev D DIY

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One of two compressors is 100% functioning properly. The other is still a bit of a mess.

Here are some relevant voltages:
Q1
G -1.777vDC
S 0.001vDC
D 0vDC

Q2
B 1.011vDC
C 1.726vDC
E 0.507vDC

Q3
B 1.723vDC
C 12.26vDC
E 1.118vDC

Q14
B 12.28vDC
C 29.70vDC
E 11.69vDC

Q4 **Replaced 2n3391a from kit with a generic 2n3391 earlier during troubleshooting**
B 2.915vDC
C 10.66vDC
E 2.356vDC

Not sure where to go from here, but there's some basic stuff I need help understanding. The secondary winding in T1 has a signal induced from the primary as I understand it, which originates from the primary. The positive lead goes through processing, and the negative shoots directly to the violet lead of the output transformer. Is that right? Can anyone point me to a resource for understanding the output transformer better? I don't understand why there are so many leads and what they all do.
 
JingleDjango said:
there's some basic stuff I need help understanding. The secondary winding in T1 has a signal induced from the primary as I understand it, which originates from the primary. The positive lead goes through processing, and the negative shoots directly to the violet lead of the output transformer. Is that right? Can anyone point me to a resource for understanding the output transformer better? I don't understand why there are so many leads and what they all do.

Violet lead of the output transformer goes directly to PCB ground. I imagine you're looking at the schematic and seeing the horizontal line running across the entire circuit? That's the ground plane. Notice that it attaches to the circuit in dozens of other places too. Everywhere that there's a dot where two lines converge, that means it's connected. Many things are connected to the ground plane.

There are so many leads on the secondary because there's 3 windings. The primary from the output amp, the secondary which drives what ever you connect to the output XLR, and a third winding used as part of the output amp's negative feedback loop. You can think of it as the output amp is listening to it's own output and using that to "throttle" itself, kind of like how the cruise control in your car monitors the data coming from the speedometer sending unit and modulates throttle control accordingly. Speed goes high than setpoint, throttle is reduced. Speed drops below setpoint, more throttle applied. These are both examples of a "servomechanism" utilizing negative feedback. Lots of wires involved.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servomechanism

The yellow and orange wires get tied together because those two windings get wired in series. Remember how when installing the power transformer there was two ways to wire up the primary? One was series for 220v input and one was parallel for 110v? It's kinda like that. Many transformers have various ways they can be hooked up, so it gives more options, the manufacturer does that so there's a wider possible market for one product.

Edit: I was looking at the Rev A schematic when I typed all of that, but it's basically the same idea.
 
That's a super lucid explanation, thanks! I have to wonder, if the violet transformer wire is in place to ground the PCB, why do we also run a wire from C25 to the chassis? Redundancy? A thicker gauge for greater current?
 
bdunard said:
hymentoptera said:
bdunard said:
I don't show any VAC between pad 18 and ground no matter where I turn the qbias.  Reading was 0 VAC.

Multimeter should be set to volts DC when measuring DC at Pad 18.

Thanks for pointing that out...my own careless error.
After metering pad 18 I got it down to 0 VDC but I had to turn the qbias CW which seems to go against what Mike was saying.  If I have it full CCW I have about 1.119 VDC.

I know this is probably a stupid question but I'll ask anyway.  I'm not understanding the three test points (1,2,3) and where they are located on the PCB that Mike is asking me to test? 

I'm not sure what inside and outside mean...I'm sure this is a silly error on my part but I'm not getting it.

I've tested the input AC transformer outputs coming into the board and I have 29 VAC coming into the PCB on both sides.

I don't see any labels on the other transformer that suggest "+" or inside and outside...this probably what's throwing me off.

Pin 2 and 3 on the XLR.  They are labeled.
 
I can pass audio but it's extremely distorted. I've attached an image to show the asymmetric distortion in case that's helpful. I can follow the AC signal from XLR, through T1, all the way to C8 before I start to get confused  ::) Seems normal up to that point. For whatever it's worth, Q6 generates no heat. This was worrying me so I found a replacement transistor and swapped it in, but still no heat. On my working compressor, Q6 gets hot to the touch (obviously there's a heatsink for a reason).

Audio at the output sounds like this:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxIj2f8qKoJ2OWpvbFFraG5VTmM
 

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Waveforms like that are mostly meaningless. They are a software's interpretation  that may or may not be correct.  Could be a DC offset issue, or desirable asymmetrical clipping. Either way, it's mostly meaningless.

What is important is that your Q6 seems to not be conducting normally.  What are your DC voltages around Q6?

If you have headers, switch out the PCB with your working one and confirm it's an on the PCB issue (which it probably is).

Mike
 
JingleDjango said:
Don't have the other unit handy right now so I can't swap boards

Q6:
E 29.69vDC
B 29.05vDC
C 29.67vDC

That's way messed up:
http://mnats.net/files/1176REVD_VOLTS.pdf

Something is wrong in that line amp section. You need to triple check all of the values in there and touch up the joints. Check for lifted pads (check traces with your DMM Ω function). I very much doubt its and output transformer issue, but you can swap the boards with your other unit to compare.

Keep us posted!

Mike
 
Ya I know it's totally outta whack!
I replaced Q4 with a 2n3391 I found locally. Not sure the manufacturer but it has this same logo on the face :
-ic-font-b-2N3391-b-font-font-b-2N3391-b-font-10pcs.jpg
I wanted to get more from Mouser but they're backordered so I got a handful of these guys.

I replaced Q5 a while back with something generic. I have a bunch but also there are replacement Central transistors in the mail along with replacement caps  in case I need them. Values are:

Q4 *2n3391
B 2.915vDC
C 10.66vDC
E 2.356vDC

Q5
E 21.36vDC
C 27.48vDC
B 29.05vDC
 
JingleDjango said:
Ya I know it's totally outta whack!
I replaced Q4 with a 2n3391 I found locally. Not sure the manufacturer but it has this same logo on the face :
-ic-font-b-2N3391-b-font-font-b-2N3391-b-font-10pcs.jpg
I wanted to get more from Mouser but they're backordered so I got a handful of these guys.

I replaced Q5 a while back with something generic. I have a bunch but also there are replacement Central transistors in the mail along with replacement caps  in case I need them. Values are:

Q4 *2n3391
B 2.915vDC
C 10.66vDC
E 2.356vDC

Q5
E 21.36vDC
C 27.48vDC
B 29.05vDC

You've got a lot out of wack there.Did you confirm those transistors have the same pin out? You need to find the datasheet for them or replace them with some that have a known pinout.

I suspect Q5 is in wrong.

Mike
 
Okay, that's useful information. I had assumed (i guess wrongly) that the same part number would mean the same pinout, regardless of manufacturer. I can't find datasheets for these because I bought them from an electronics parts shop that sorts them by part number but doesn't list any other info.  The 2N3707 has literally no discernible logo, and neither does the 2N3053. The 3391 looks like this picture. Not sure what these colour bands are supposed to mean.

I'll swap the brand name transistors in for Q5 and Q6 when they show up.
 

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JingleDjango said:
Okay, that's useful information. I had assumed (i guess wrongly) that the same part number would mean the same pinout, regardless of manufacturer. I can't find datasheets for these because I bought them from an electronics parts shop that sorts them by part number but doesn't list any other info.  The 2N3707 has literally no discernible logo, and neither does the 2N3053. The 3391 looks like this picture. Not sure what these colour bands.

I'll swap the brand name transistors in for Q5 and Q6 when they show up.

If you want to get deep:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-we-identify-the-emitter-collector-and-base-of-a-transistor-by-using-a-multimeter
 
JingleDjango said:
That's wicked, thanks. Can't wait to swap these buggers out. BTW, I dunno if you spent much time in Toronto but if you did, you'll probably be sad to hear what's happening to Active Surplus.
http://www.activesurplus.com/

I lived in Toronto for a year, but it is was 19 years ago and before I was into electronics.

I grew up in Kingston, ON.
 
I have something you can check quick.. With the unit powered down and unplugged, bottom cover off, set your multimeter to ohms or continuity, doesn't matter which, and see if you have continuity or very low DC resistance between any of the E, B, or C pads of Q6, the metal can 2n3053. There's have been a few cases of builders setting that component right down against the board and shorting it out against the pads.

Do the same for the three pads under Q5 as well. A failed-short transistor could also be a cause here, although I don't think we've seen that come up yet on these kits, you never know. Only takes a minute to check.

While you're down there you could even flip the meter over to diode mode and check each junction individually, if you read the link Mike posted and understand it.

You shouldn't have +30 rail voltage all over the place like that! I'm surprised it's not blowing R32. That's what usually happens.

JingleDjango said:
That's a super lucid explanation, thanks! I have to wonder, if the violet transformer wire is in place to ground the PCB, why do we also run a wire from C25 to the chassis? Redundancy? A thicker gauge for greater current?

The violet wire doesn't ground the PCB. It's the signal return path for that transformer winding. Just like you're guitar cable doesn't work if the shield wire comes undone, or a lightbulb stops working if someone disconnected the neutral wire, sometimes transformers need to be grounded. Transformers are actually (usually) the exception to the rule, being that they are often left "floating" (see Rev D schematic, the blue/red output winding doesn't reference ground.. it's referenced to itself!), but this winding is referenced to ground since the rest of the output amp is also referenced to ground.

If built correctly the PCB should only be earthed at one point and one point only. PCB power supply negative should have one wire flying out to the chassis.

The output transformer body also has a shield wire to be earthed. The bare wire. This wire by itself does not have continuity to any of the windings on it's own, but if the kit is built correctly it will still have continuity with everything else that's grounded, including the PCB's power supply negative rail and the rest of the ground plane, and the purple wire. The bare wire is intended only to help shield the transformer body from interference.

I know it's a lot to take in, but probe around if you have a minute, meter set to ohms, unit powered down and unplugged, and check all your ground/earth connections by connecting the black lead to PSU negative (power transformer center tap) and following along with the schematic probing with the red lead see just how many things are tied together there! It's crazy. The ground prong on the mains, every panel of the chassis, all of that should show no more than an ohm.

JingleDjango said:
Okay, that's useful information. I had assumed (i guess wrongly) that the same part number would mean the same pinout, regardless of manufacturer. I can't find datasheets for these because I bought them from an electronics parts shop that sorts them by part number but doesn't list any other info.  The 2N3707 has literally no discernible logo, and neither does the 2N3053. The 3391 looks like this picture. Not sure what these colour bands are supposed to mean.

I'll swap the brand name transistors in for Q5 and Q6 when they show up.

Usually the same part number will have the same pinout, but not always. Often times you can google up the specific manufacturer's datasheet. Central is pretty good about having theirs' up and available for free. It's never a bad idea to try and find the correct manu just to be certain.

Those painted stripes on old parts from the 70's and 80's, as I understand it, is what's called having been "gain binned", where some poor bastard actually measured them (for hfe/beta I guess) and sorted them and or marked them according to their transfer characteristics.

I've done some light experimenting with several types I've bought like this, and it seems to be true that's what it is, I've been able to roughly group parts by hfe just by sorting the colors first and then checking with a Peak Atlas DCA55, but there's always a few that just don't fit in the groups so I suspect there may be more to it that just "gain binning".

Haven't been able to find much info online about the phenomenon. I'd like to know who did it and why, and how can we and hobbyists and technicians use them to help us build and repair shit.
 
I'm starting to think I might as well just buy a new pcb, stuff it, and throw it into the same case. By this point, I think it would be a better and more predictable use of my time and money. I could throw a new board together and calibrate it in one afternoon, or I could spend god knows how many more weeks trying to figure out exactly what's going wrong here.
 
after a week of working with my new revD from hairball i am wondering:

is it normal that i can't  compress with more than 2db of GR on bass guitar without distortion when using a release time faster than 1 o'clock?
 
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