printing stems

Has anybody got a secret recipe for printing stems so that they sum together at unity and sound exactly like the mix (with master bus precessing). I’ve been chewing on this tonight while at work and not really rushed off my feet and it seems like there isn’t really a “standard” for printing stems – some people take off any master bus compression, others leave it on and ignore the fact that the compression won’t act the same. some people don't so much print stems as print entire multitracks individually through the master bus no matter how big the session is (think 90 track sessions printed a track at a time!) :shock:

Would it be really dumb to print the mix followed by the stems but to feed the mix into the sidechain of any master bus compression when doing the stems? I’ve never heard of anybody doing this but it seems like it might sum together perfectly afterwards even with heavy mixbus compression. Do people do this and it’s passed me by or is this not done because it's stoopid and i didn't fink it froo properly?

M

dont understand this!! but i know some mastering houses like the mix split into 4 stems.

drums / guitars / bass / vocals or how ever your mix splits

well... if you print stems of a mix that has lots of master bus compression the compressor will act differently for each stem rather than doing it's job of glueing the mix together with a unifying compression. but if you take off the mixbus compression to print stems, when you sum the stems together again it doesnt sound like the mix either because there is no mixbus compression.

Film stems aren't subject to master processing, so this is a non-issue.

Secondly, the only reason for doing this is in case things need to be changed... (whether balance, language dub etc or whatever) and so the 'amount' of trigger (in the case of a rebalance) would change, and the timing of the trigger (in the case of a redub) would also change.

-So the proper thing to do to avoid problems is to NOT compress or otherwise process. -If necessary, provide notes on processing for recombining, otherwise, leave it. Stems are halfway between the multitrack stage and the finished mix stage... so post-mix processing is a bad idea, the way I see it.

You could do the clever summed-sidechain compression, but personally, I'd never do it: not for music and CERTAINLY never for film... If things need to be re-worked, adding final processing can do as much to mess you up as it can to help you...

I vote no.

Keith

haha! yeah! i've only worked on one film and things got changed around SO much - that'd definitely screw things up.

you are of course right, the only way to definitely not screw things up is to leave master bus processing off the stems but i was just thinking about what stems get used for most commonly in music:

1) vocal up or vocal down vesions - not too disasterous doing the sidechain trigger thing,

2) instrumentals or semi-instumentals for tv stuff - fairly problematic doing the trigger thing but an instrumental mix should be done anyway right?

3) EQ or compression at the master stage to correct mix inaccuracy - not too disaterous right?

4) removing elements of the mix at the last minute - total disaster agreed, but how common is this compared to vocal up 1dB requests?

you are completely right as i've already said - it just still seems frustrating there isn't a way to tick all the boxes.

personally I only use stereo mix buss compression on the reference copy for the artist just to give some idea of how a compressed mix will sound.

As far as stems go, I have found it more important to make sure the stems are in sync. The only time I had issues was when I was doing parallel compression on the stereo mix. That was solved by removing it when it came time to do stems. I could always redo it if I had to mix from stems again.

... actually - scratch this, it's a dumb idea!! and one that could only ever put us out of work. It's much better to charge for redoing a stems mix!!!

This is why I don't understand why the mastering engineer doesn't also do the mixing. Are there any of the big name mastering guys that do that?

why the mastering engineer doesn't also do the mixing

Click to expand...

Never! You need a second ear on things, and one who thinks big picture only. he shouldnt ever mention the kik. it should be low end, detail, image, blah, blah.

BOT, you should mix several passes with vocals up, vocals dry, drier, etc.... givng the decision to someone else will only prove youre not needed.

mixing "drags you in". Once you're wrapped up in the project it's easy to miss something.

To my mind, the requirements of a mastering engineer is that he (or she) is fresh, talented, and skillful. -If you lose the "fresh", you lose one of the greatest benefits.

Keith

I'm not saying that the tracking engineer should also master, I'm saying that I don't see why once things are tracked that it THEN doesn't go to fresh ears for mixing and mastering both. I'm curious how many times a mix engineer is just trying to shine a turd when things could easily be corrected with access to the mix.
Joel

Fully understood.

It's still a supremely bad idea, in my experience. -I've seen it tried plenty of times by people who also thought it made sense. -none of them still do it.

With apologies to Kipling:

"If you can mix a tune and still be objective at the end, yours is the world, my son, and what's more, you'll be a man"

Keith

So if it IS a turd that could be fixed in the mix, does the mastering engineer usually send it back to be fixed or "master" the problem out as best he can?

Sometimes it needs to go back, IMHO, but that´s when it´s not mixed well. You should take wathever time is needed for the best mix possible BEFORE you send it to mastering. Mixing should be an exhaustive and obsessive job. That´s why you need FRESH ears for mastering.

[quote author="Mbira"]So if it IS a turd that could be fixed in the mix, does the mastering engineer usually send it back to be fixed or "master" the problem out as best he can?[/quote]
The mastering engineer can make helpful suggestions, and do what he can, but NO mastering engineer yet born can tell you what WILL happen in a mix. If a mastering engineer ever told me that I'd mixed a turd, he might reasonably expect for me to find a new (better) mastering engineer...

I'm very lucky in that I live very close to one of the very finest mastering engineers in the field; one who has published a reasonable amount of highly respected work on the subject, who designs, builds and sells audio gear, who encourages me to play him roughs so that he can suggest things to try, but one who NEVER claims too much.

..And he NEVER wants to be present at a mix.

Really, it's all about objectivity. About NOT wanting to get 'invested' in a project. About gently steering YOUR work, NOT teling you how to do your job. I don't know any professional mix engineers who would want to master their stuff, and I can't name a single mastering engineer who'd want to mix as well.

Keith

understood. Thanks!
Joel