Separate Valve Pre/Power amps v complete guitar amps

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deuce42

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
645
Location
Sydney, Australia
Howdy

At the Bogner Amplification website, Reinhold Bogner notes that your cant get the same sound out of a split system (separate preamp and power amp) than with a complete valve guitar amp.

Now Reinhold is clearly one of the most respected amp makers in the world and I am sure knows what he is talking about - but why is this the case? If I have a valve preamp and couple it with a valve power amp, how is the fact that they are in separate casings and perhaps use separate power supplies different? Why does this compromise tone?

Any ideas?
 
deuce42 said:
cant get the same sound

"Sound" in any setting is pretty subjective, when it comes to guitar/bass amps it is COMPLETELY subejctive, what I like from one rig willl almost certainly be different from what you like.

I'm fairly sure Reinhold Bogner is right, a setup with seperate boxes will probably sound different from a combined head, or combo setup. It might be a subtle difference, or it might be very significant. You've just got to go with what sounds best to you, just because someone with "golden ears" says something, doesn't neccesarily mean you have to agree.

Ask as many different people as you can find which of two or more setups sound best and you'll get as many different answers and opinions as you can be bothered listening to.

Go with your own ears as they're the only ones you've got to live with all the time.
 
Ah yes Sag - that elusive concept. I had not thought of that. Perhaps some millage there.

It is true that an amp is very organic as well and playing is the only way of knowing. I guess its just the scientific part of my brain that was trying to understand the theory behind his premise of split systems being different.
 
ok so what does sag actually "sound" like?

How do I know if I have sag aside from the electronic theory of when it occurs?

Does sag sound nice to some people? 
 
Compression is probably the best single word description for sag especially amongst this crowd.  Too much power supply sag and the amp starts to faint.  Tube guitar amps are very different beasts from pretty much anything else in tube audio.  Whereas we in most audio designs we tend to shoot for really stiff power supplies, maximum balance, and an abundance of headroom, guitar amps sound best with barely enough power supply, a cold biased tube somewhere in the preamp chain, and the volume pushed into distortion.  You gotta color outside the lines.  Besides power supply sag, the better over driven sounds aren't limited to just the preamp but actually occur within the power tubes.  Using a hot plate sucks the life out of this component and this is why as an engineer, you can't get a geetarist to turn the f*%k down.  As a purist, I have to 100% agree with Bogner.  One could easily argue that it can all be simulated with a Line 6 dooleyflachie.  After 3 or 4 beers, it all sounds the same anyway is probably the best argument.
 
This for you....

What is "Sag"?

General

    One of the terms you often hear in discussions about tube guitar amplifiers is "sag".  Sag refers to the drooping of the power supply voltage in response to large transient signals, which lends a certain dynamic "feel" to the tube amplifier that is not generally found in solid-state amplifiers.

What causes it?

    There are three main places where sag occurs in a tube amplifier:

        * The rectifier:  If a vacuum tube rectifier is used, sag is generated because of the internal resistance of the tube.  Unlike a solid-state rectifier, a tube rectifier exhibits a fair amount of voltage drop which varies with the amount of current passing through the tube.  In a class AB amplifier, the current drawn from the power supply is much greater at full power output than it is at idle.  This large change in current demand causes the voltage drop across the tube rectifier to increase, which lowers the available plate supply voltage to the output tubes.  This lowering of the supply voltage lowers the output power slightly in opposition to the larger input signal, making it act like a compressor.  The lowered supply voltage also tends to decrease the available headroom, increasing clipping and changing the operating point of the tube dynamically.  This type of sag can be emulated artificially in an amplifier with a solid-state rectifier by adding a series resistance, typically around 100 ohms or so..

        * The transformers:  The resistance of the high-voltage secondary winding also creates sag.  From Ohm's Law, the voltage drop across a resistance is equal to the resistance multiplied by the current flowing through it.  This means that there is no voltage drop if there is no current, and the amount of voltage drop goes up linearly with increases in current draw.  A typical power transformer B+ winding might have a resistance of 50 ohms - 300 ohms, depending upon the current rating and regulation of the transformer.  For example, if the current draw in a push-pull class AB output stage at idle is 70mA total, and it increases to 170mA at full power, there is a change of 100mA in the current drawn through the secondary windings.  If the winding resistance of the secondary is 200 ohms, there is a voltage drop of 100mA*200 ohms = 20V in the plate voltage to the output tubes.  Likewise, the resistance of the primary winding of an output transformer varies as well, typically 80 ohms - 200 ohms plate-to-plate, depending upon the primary inductance, the transformer power rating, and the rated impedance.  This resistance also creates a voltage drop, but the amount of sag introduced is minimal in pentode mode, because the plate voltage doesn't have near as much effect on the plate current as does the screen voltage.  In triode mode, there is more sag because the plate voltage has more of an effect on plate current in a triode. The supply sag created by the power transformer resistance lowers not only the plate voltage, but the screen voltage as well, since the screen is nearly always a filtered version of the supply going to the plate.  The amount of sag induced by the power transformer winding can be offset if there is a large filter capacitor reservoir to hold the voltage constant during current peaks.

        * The filter capacitors:  The size of the filter capacitors in relation to the amount of current drawn from the power supply also creates sag.  The filter caps charge up during the peaks of the AC input cycles, and hold the voltage constant during the "valleys".  If the ratio of peak to idle current is high, and the peak current demands are high in relation to the capacitance size, the voltage will sag appreciably during the valleys, creating a lower average voltage.  If there is no further filtering, there will also be a 120Hz sawtooth ripple riding on the B+ supply.  This normally doesn't induce much hum into the output stage because of the inherent power supply rejection afforded by the push-pull output stage, and the screen supply is usually filtered further with a choke and another capacitor.  However,  insufficient filtering can induce ripple into the amplifier if the output stage is not well balanced, or if the screen and preamp supplies aren't well filtered.

The downside of sag

    Sag creates a certain amount of compression, but it also can have bad side effects, the worst of which is "ghost" notes.  Ghost notes are notes that are "riding on top" of the guitar note, not generally harmonically related to the note being played.  This can be a bit disconcerting when it is mixed in with the guitar tone.  The ghost notes are usually caused by inadequate power supply filtering, which allows a 120Hz component to modulate the guitar signal. (The frequency is 120Hz because of the full-wave rectification of the 60Hz supply. It would be 100Hz in countries that use 50Hz mains power.).

    Note that sag effectively only occurs in class AB amplifier output stages.  A true class A amplifier has no sag because the current draw at full power is the same as the current draw at idle.  However, most class A amplifiers aren't biased exactly at the midpoint of the range, and will tend to clip asymmetrically, especially when going into grid clamp on the output tubes, so there will be an offset current component, but it will be much smaller than in a class AB output stage.

Another term: "squish"

    An effect similar to sag is produced by cathode-biased amplifiers because the increased current through the power tubes increases the voltage drop across the bias resistor, which in turn decreases the current through the tube, with a time constant dependent upon the size of the bypass capacitor in relation to the cathode resistance.  This compression effect is commonly referred to as "squish" to differentiate it from "sag", which applies only to compression induced by power supply droop.  "Squish" also is used when referring to the effect produced by the transient recovery time of AC-coupled amplifier stages.  A sharp transient temporarily increases the effective negative bias, and the time constant of the RC coupling determines the recovery time following the transient.  Long time constants caused by large coupling capacitors in conjunction with large grid resistor values will increase the amount of squish in an amplifier.  Too long a recovery time leads to "blocking" distortion.  This is why it is not a good idea to use overly large coupling capacitors in the output stage of a guitar amplifier.
 
Hey thanks for this info. What separates this site from others is the members here actually know what they are talking about.

It is interesting stuff to me so thanks.
 
deuce42 said:
Hey thanks for this info. What separates this site from others is the members here actually know what they are talking about.

It is interesting stuff to me so thanks.

your welcome. I like learning as much as the rest of us.
 
You'll find a lot of other great information well presented where pucho copied this text...

http://www.aikenamps.com/
 
There is no doubt that amp head/cabinet will sound different than a combo.  But different is not necessarily "bad".  If it is the same electronics they will have similar feels... but in my experience no two amps ever sound completely alike.  Close but...

Remember most components have at least a 10% value difference.  So a 1000 ohm resistor on one amp might be 1000 or 1100 or 900.  Now imagine that replicated over a number of resistors and capacitors.

On a slightly differently note - I think combos almost always retain their value better than the head/speaker arrangement.  The only exception is Marshall stacks.

CC
 
deuce42 said:
........ Reinhold Bogner notes that your cant get the same sound out of a split system (separate preamp and power amp) than with a complete valve guitar amp.....

Sound is all subjective.

However,  you can not get the sound that you get from a split system from a single amplifier either. So I don't understand why he would make a comment like that. May be he comments it in a different context.
 
To be honest with you I am really strugling to understand why a comment like that is necessary, even if it is from a technical perspective. The phrase "same sound" really bothers me. Which same sound? If you adopt a sound from a particular set up why would you compare it with another?  I play slide a lot and of course you'll never get that sustain that you get out of a small 15W amp from a 100W combo. It just does not make any sense. I had a quick look at his web site but could not locate the discussion. Mind you beautiful amps though.
 
Well as I read it, - it was simply a response to what he felt was the craze of rackmount guitar preamps (remember ADA MP1's, JMP1, Carvin Quad X's etc) that were uber cool during the late 80's when he started making his amps. It seemed every guitar player was using separate rack pre's and the note went on to say that he recognized these split systems didn't have the same "dynamics and response" as an all valve amp. He was determined to make valve heads and combo's which he thought were better sounding than these component system combinations.

Now maybe I have misquoted him and if I have this was not my intention, I was just interested in what this point could mean as I couldn't understand the rationale to "dynamics and response" being different. I was wanting members here to teach me something more about amps than I know from my own builds and tinkerings. Maybe it is about sag, maybe it is just about Reinhold's idea of what a good amp should be, and I accept that these things are all very subjective and a matter of personal feel and taste.

 
  Smells like BS to me designed to sell High-Dollar cock-polishers.  I had a preamp I built into a bassman chassis years ago that had as much gain as the "Bogner"  amps are capable of: EG the Soldano circuit that ALL high gain guitar amplifiers are based on.  And I ran this into a Champ for amplification.  Hi-gain guitar distortion circuits are all built around 3 to 4 OR MORE cascaded 12AX7 circuits.  These circuits generate so much distortion that the tone crosses a point where it stops being "natural" and becomes "synthetic".  So Herr Bogner can take his "superior" tone BS and blow it out his ass.

  The the preamp was way cool: JCM800 add one more gain stage.  From crunch to liquid lead. 

  Been there.  Done that.  That's why we are here to DIY away the BS. 

   
 

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