stacking preamps

it has been a goal of mine to have a choice of decent preamps in my gear, with the 500 series and diy this makes it more likely and manageable.
in previous times i have either just used the pres that are on the desk if recording live, or if in my home studio, separately put everything i can through the single best pre i had at the time...

my question is:
in your opinion, which pres 'stack' better? (in a multi-track/overdubbing situation. or then different, more 'live' scenario)
do you find you get final mix results you prefer with a bunch of similar pre's or do you think what you achieve is better when you mix and match from a selection as i had planned?
obviously not talking about different pre's for stereo tracks.

i assume a lot of you have tracked and then mixed solely on an ssl or a neve desk for instance

not looking for some unobtainable 'best'... just some thoughts and opinions

Well I'm interested to see what other people have to say. But I'll share a thought. In my limited experience Ive found one great preamp stacks with itself much better then trying to switch preamp around just for the sake of using different preamp.

I've found that great preamps sound good together.  I really like how the N72's and Jeff's VP26's stack together.  The biggest difference I noticed by far was when I switched from standard API 512 pres to 512's with red dots and then again to VP26's with red dots.  Whatever is happening there really helped tracks gel together better then API 512's stock by miles. 

That's just my personal experience.  I bet some V72's or something like that would stack well with these also. 

Oh, a side note.

Usually when I track I like to keep the same type of pres together.  I'm not sure why but maybe because they gel groups together.  Like drums with Neve type pres, Gtrs with VP26's and so on.  Maybe my method and thinking about that will change in a few months.  But I think its the same thing I get from mixing through a console.  It just helps things gel.

Just the same as you wouldn't record all sources with the same microphone, selecting the best preamp for the source is the way to go.
But preamps are much more versatile than mics. For a number of years, recording engineers used the mixer's preamps for all sources, then they decided they wanted some extra flavour and added a few outboard pres.
Now, it's a different game; most project studios don't have a mixer and rely upon a selection of mic pres, except when they use something like an 8-channel pre.
All in all, I reckon you need three flavours of mic pres, from squeky clean (Grace), to coloured (V72) via clean with personality (Neve). More than three is gluttony but what a treat... 

my 3 are API, NEVE, And Jensons.  But yeah more then that... well, I also have the Ward beck Pres and a number of Neve and API type pres so I'm a glutton.

I will say, i feel great about my pres.  Maybe a cool tube pre or a V72 would be nice.  Other then that I'm good.

we should all pop down the shop and buy some n72s then, i hear they're real cheap.

i remember an analogy i read describing cheap mic pres in comparison to a decent one, to paraphrase,
its like looking at the same little dot but with your glasses on, no blurry edges.

i think i have definitely been able to notice as i have made my moderate steps up the quality ladder.
but, do you feel you are equally able to get the cohesion and solidarity using pre's, and mics with such wild variation? or do you think it sounds good to have such distance between the multi-tracks you printed before you try to push them all together?

some more opinions and experiences..

quiet pres. noise the first thing I start to hear with stacks (big stacks ie 8bgvs on the left and 8 others on the right). as the noise floor rises, so does that nasty hash that I think is objectionable. I think that is what you are asking.

check the term gain staging through google. It will help

amorris@home said:

quiet pres. noise the first thing I start to hear with stacks (big stacks ie 8bgvs on the left and 8 others on the right). as the noise floor rises, so does that nasty hash that I think is objectionable. I think that is what you are asking.

Click to expand...

I don't get this. If the signal to noise ratio of every track is the same how could the noise floor rise if you add them together?

pasarski said:

amorris@home said:

quiet pres. noise the first thing I start to hear with stacks (big stacks ie 8bgvs on the left and 8 others on the right). as the noise floor rises, so does that nasty hash that I think is objectionable. I think that is what you are asking.

Click to expand...

I don't get this. If the signal to noise ratio of every track is the same how could the noise floor rise if you add them together?

Click to expand...

Too much compression, probably.

yea, i'm not sure what either of you mean there.

amorris@home
i assume '8bgvs' means eight background vocal tracks maybe??? its a capitalization i've never seen before anyway.
if so then i think your talking about possible noise build up. this is inherent in ALL audio circuitry to varying levels. this isnt what i was talking about. i'm talking about individual opinions and preferences on 'sound' from different stacked pres, the noise could be terrible and still sounf great IMO.

detonator
i think this is directed at previous post? again, this is not about amplified noise levels, correct/unity gain structure is a different discussion

i have wanted stereo sets of some 1073's 312's and ssl pre's for as long as i can remember.
i'm just wondering if, down the line i'm gonna have an expensive mix and match of loads of pres and wishing i had 8 or even 16 the same because of how they fit together.
its not really a question. i just wanted some opinions and accounts of your experiences using great sums of different hardware

To retain your analogy with "looking at the same little dot but with your glasses on", in a mix, not all tracks need the same focus. The tracks that are in the background need to be as uncoloured as can be, because anyway, no one except you is going to notice the amount of "character" it contains. OTOH, lead vocals, kick and snare and whatever instrument that soloes need as much attention and creativity as you can. That means you can use whatever dose of "colour" you see fit. But "blurry edges" is not an option, whatever the track is. If it's in the foreground, it's obviously wrong, if it's in the background, it will just be a nuisance.

The N72's and VP26's are a must to me! If I was to start again I'd grab the VP26's (red dots) and then try collins new product he is working on.  The 1073!  I think you would be very happy with those and would replace the N72's nicely. 

I will say I have a vintech 1081 and I often use the N72 pre and then patch into the 1081 eq instead of just using the strip.  The N72 has more clarity!

Stacked preamps.


I suggest buying a rack.  ;D

lol. very good miko

dandeurloo:
i thought colins new one was the n*ve1073 strip? you would substitute that for a n72?
i have never used an n72 but i imagined the 1073 pre section to be far less coloured.

a type per category usually works well.  Depends on what you want.

Same type on drum close mics.  Different on OH, and maybe also different for any room mics.

Gtrs, maybe different types within a session, to accentuate the types of guitar sounds dialed up.

Vcl, the one that brings out the best from the mic that's working the best, and within reason, is the best subtle tweak of the mic for the voice. 

etc etc etc

kepeb said:

dandeurloo:
i thought colins new one was the n*ve1073 strip? you would substitute that for a n72?
i have never used an n72 but i imagined the 1073 pre section to be far less coloured.

Click to expand...

I think Neve pres of the 10** and N72 do impart the same kind of vibe.  Yeah, they are different but they do that neve thing.  So basically, Neve, and API's sound fantastic together!

Collins thing will be great because it also has the amazing EQ sections which are something everyone should have a pair of!

just get everybody kinda close to the megaphone looking thing
that goes to that needle sittin' on that wax cylinder there...

To me the concept of what pres "stack" better doesnt really hold any water bacause i used to record with a sebatron pre and ran all my sources through that and i never had any low end build up or mud build up. None of my sources were all recorded at the same freqs and none of the performances were played the same so why would i have a build up? But i can agree that i love the sound of everything being recorded with one preamp. It just sounds so harmonious. YMMV

I've never thought there was an issue with things stacking incorrectly, as if one needed to avoid too many of the same thing.  After all, a bunch of the exact same curve is the new flat.  I've never once thought about anything other than what the particular source might sound best with.