Upgrade sound card before DIYing?

I have a modest home studio set up that's centred around a PC running Nuendo with a Delta 1010 card inside.  Now before I start building some of the high end projects on this forum (specifically an LA2A, EQP-1A, 1290 and GSSL) should I upgrade my soundcard to something a bit better?  What's the point in having high end equipment if the A>D convertors aren't up to scratch?  Or are the 1010 convertors up to scratch?  My recordings sound a little flat and muddy, but I'm not sure if that's the budget pre amp I use at the moment (TLA 5051) or the convertors in the 1010.

Should I stick with the 1010 for now or should I upgrade before I spend money on parts for the DIY projects I want to build?  Can anyone recommend a decent interface with multiple ins and outs and good A>D convertors?

Thanks!

Hi,



  just my opinion. Great records were made using crappy converters. Protools 888 and 882 were awful!

    Id spend your money on some great DIY projects, just as you mentioned.


  Better converters would be nice, but later.



    KIndest regards,



      ANdyp

thats really true, I had an 888 and a 882 16 bit they really sounded shit. My internal macbook converter sounds better.
The stuff I did with this converter really sounded digital krank. Anyway I recorded some great stuff with it.
I can recommend to get a used metric halo 2882, they are great !

strangeandbouncy said:

Hi,



  just my opinion. Great records were made using crappy converters. Protools 888 and 882 were awful!

     Id spend your money on some great DIY projects, just as you mentioned.


   Better converters would be nice, but later.



    KIndest regards,



      ANdyp

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letterbeacon said:

I have a modest home studio set up that's centred around a PC running Nuendo with a Delta 1010 card inside.  Now before I start building some of the high end projects on this forum (specifically an LA2A, EQP-1A, 1290 and GSSL) should I upgrade my soundcard to something a bit better?  What's the point in having high end equipment if the A>D convertors aren't up to scratch?  Or are the 1010 convertors up to scratch?  My recordings sound a little flat and muddy, but I'm not sure if that's the budget pre amp I use at the moment (TLA 5051) or the convertors in the 1010.

Should I stick with the 1010 for now or should I upgrade before I spend money on parts for the DIY projects I want to build?  Can anyone recommend a decent interface with multiple ins and outs and good A>D convertors?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

You should start with an analysis of what makes your recordings "flat and muddy". Very often it is due to poor acoustic environment. Too much reflections and it sounds muddy. Then you put some foam on the walls and it sounds flat.
I would say that 90% of a good recording is in the acoustics, the mics and a good quality reverb at mixdown. I won't start a fight mentioning the artists talent...

+1 to that. 90% of the time, when somebody's recording sounds "muddy and flat", it's a room problem. Another 9% is a monitoring problem. The remaining 1% might be a miic problem. Almost never is it a gear problem.

Peace,
Paul

I would say go with what you've got and replace it when you can't use it anymore for what you need.

Sometimes it takes a little while to get your DIY project done. ie; there are usually a number of items to order from various sources and you're not "done" until you have ordered "everything", put it together, test/troubleshoot/fix, then that one is done and you have probably started another or two along the way. Along the way you might find a couple things that hold you up a little on completing a certain project but that's no reason to start another.

You know, once you dive in you'll never really be "done". Some projects are more "encapsulated" than others too which makes them appealing as far as a quick-and-dirty is concerned.

We have the delta44's here in our studios on our "internet" machines. Not a particularly critical audio-task but they work "fine". I can say that they have been in service 24/7 for at least three years without issue. The outputs are impedance balanced (unbalanced on the PCI card DB connector and impedance balanced in the breakout box). Probably the same on the 1010's. They record what you send to them and playback what comes from the machine. They are not Apogee's or Lynx's. I would not say they "suck" by any means nor would I guess that they are likely the limiting factor.

Best,
jonathan

I have a delta 1010 that I replaced all the opamps and coupling caps in and to me It sounds fine....compared to my last converters I used (digi 882)
    Ive been using these converters since I was was using some really crappy mic pres and room acoustics and now I have nice pres and pay more attention to room acoustics and my recordings have drastically. improved.

     I used to think the reason for phasey muddy washed out recordings was my converters problems hence all the modding. but like everyone is saying and I've learned from experience on the same convertors your talking about. The quality of your recordings still have room to drastically improve with any of the projects found on this site before your converters are the limiting factors.

but I would recommend replacing all the capacitors.....

I had a Delta 1010 with the breakout box, etc. At first I really liked it, but then I compared it to some recordings that I made with my older cards -- Digital Audio Labs Card Deluxe's. I went back to the Card Deluxe's.

I felt the 1010 just sounded murkier, less resolute, less immediate, than the Card Deluxe. This was only really noticeable to me with classical music. I bet the aforementioned capacitor changes would be good. I really did like the drivers for the 1010, and never really had setup problems.

Like others, I don't think the 1010 is a bad box at all, and it won't be the weakest link in your chain. I also second the notion of getting a great room sound going before worrying about other things.

I went through many sound cards and converters and modded a few of them. I'm in the "converters really matter" camp. They're all flawed, the only question is to which degree and how much is acceptable, especially in the context of the rest of your gear. You can improve the Delta with better op amps and caps and get rid of some of the flaws, but not all of them. Unfortunately, converters are very tough to DIY, so there's not much choice but the spend quite a lot of dough to get a good one.

But I agree that proper room acoustics are more important. I'd rather mix completely in the box in a well-treated room with good monitoring than in a studio loaded with outboard and great converters where you're unable to hear what you're doing.

i would like to add if I may

some of what the DIY gear is based on has been around for 50+ years or more.
and still maintains such a reputation, that it is routinely cloned... for good reason.

I have used only 4 different da/ad converters but whichever you buy, sadly seems to be improved upon and updated within only months. you just need to jump in somewhere, anywhere, like with a new pc. the marketing ads will tell you its outdated as soon as you get it home

i believe the 1010 is pci maybe just get another if your short on io? i would agree and do the diy first, who knows what will come around in the meantime.

also for some perspective, do what Ethan Winer is best known to suggest (i think) i run a cd or other source through your converters and check the quality afterwards.

Another easy thing to do if you have the breakout box is buy a shorter cable,to replace the one they give you to go between the box and the computer. You have to make sure its correct type and I forget the terminology at the moment. But from what I understand delta put the clock in the PCI card and traveling through the longish computer cable doesn't help things. I changed to a shorter one...about 4 feet and it probably helped a bit. Certainly didn't hurt.

I'm in the "room acoustics" and "mic placement knowledge" camp myself.  Yes, there are better converters on the market.  But make sure you have your room sounding good first, then the instruments themselves sounding good (well-tuned drums, etc.), then the mics placed in the best positions to capture the instruments at hand, and THEN worry about the converters.

Recordings are only as good as your weakest link.

Wow, thanks for all the replies - loads of interesting thoughts.

I have been tempted to make the mods to my 1010 that I've seen on the net, I just haven't seen anyone say they heard drastic improvments after making them.  Perhaps I should mod my 1010 before I start on the DIY projects here?

Sounds like even if I don't make the mods I shouldn't worry about my 1010 for now - I'll get on and start my DIYing!

abechap024 said:

I have a delta 1010 that I replaced all the opamps and coupling caps in and to me It sounds fine....compared to my last converters I used (digi 882)

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I have a Delta 66 and I've been asking myself the same exact question.  Why spend a bunch of time and money making awesome mic pres whose sound is just going to get wrecked by a cheap converter?  I too am about to embark on some DIY work and I've been at a stalemate for months on the issue.  I thought, maybe I can just upgrade the TCXO on the sound card and really improve jitter.  Then I found through my research that maybe it's more important to take a look at the input stage where all the caps and op amps are...  But if you're going to swap out all those parts how much of a difference can you really expect to hear?  And why not just buy a good converter box if that's so important?  But a good converter costs as much as a whole rack full of cool DIY equipment...

So after months of deliberating, I'm building some mic pres.  I just can't find anything that suggests that all those mods to the sound card will yield as much of an improvement as a really awesome mic pre.

Be sure you know exactly what you're doing modding your sound card. Best to practice your skills beforehand, as it's very easy to wreck a circuit board attempting to desolder SMT components with improper techniques. I know I destroyed a good portion of the first sound card I modded.

living sounds said:

Be sure you know exactly what you're doing modding your sound card. Best to practice your skills beforehand, as it's very easy to wreck a circuit board attempting to desolder SMT components with improper techniques. I know I destroyed a good portion of the first sound card I modded.

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If you never break anything you will never have the opportunity to fix it. Don't hesitate to move forward. At least at a consistent pace. No need to be reckless but everything is in a state of dis-repair and un-use-ability.

time/money/usefulness/quality
problem/solution

Consider those things. How much time and money do you want to spend working on XYZ project and how useful will it be? Can you really just buy something that will solve the defined problem that will allow you to spend more time on other projects which may have more learning potential and maybe even inherent savings or increased quality?

Best,
j

yes those SMD op amps are a total pain. I was severely close several times to breaking a couple channels on my card. Luckily I was able to patch up the smd connections. And If I remember correctly the biggest difference I noticed in clarity was replacing the capacitors.

abechap024 said:

yes those SMD op amps are a total pain. I was severely close several times to breaking a couple channels on my card. Luckily I was able to patch up the smd connections. And If I remember correctly the biggest difference I noticed in clarity was replacing the capacitors.

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It's actually not that much of a pain with your skills developed. Just read up on how to do it and practise a little on something cheap. I switched lot's of op amps on my Aurora today with zero problems (but that circuit board is really stellar). I have no idea why they use the OPA2227 in there, but replacing it with a good op amp makes a lot of difference.

Search the forum here. Someone did a very nice analysis of the Delta 1010 circuit. Based on that, I replaced in/out signal path caps on mine, and I'm very happy with it. I used bipolar caps where it was suggested in the thread, and it now sounds better than my MOTU 828mkII.
Based on personal experience, I'd leave any SMD op amps alone, unless you have some great soldering gear.
The shorter 25-pin cable is a good idea too, but they are hard to find. If you have the box that adds light-pipe ins and outs, remove it. It doubles the cable length and adds lots of noise.
Have fun!