Neve 2254C or 33609

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Nick-ES

Active member
Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
25
Hi guys!

I would love to hear some feedback from you about Igors 2254C vs. his 33609 build.

I'am considering  building one and would love to hear what the ones that built one think about
the sonic differences of the two units or the sound of their unit.

Which one is more desireable ?

Does Igors 33609 come close to the real one ? I used one real old 33609 once on a
Studio Session and loved it - so I'am thinking of building one as it's unafordable for me to buy
one.

But I can't deside wich one of the two.

Nick
 
I've built the 2254c - love it. Sounds very good.. My favorite DIY compressor. Will build more. The sidechain HPF and attack controls are very useful.

I've got a 33609 85% done - so can't report back on that yet. I imagine I might miss the sc HPF and attack control... Might end up adding them in. The limiter might be cool... I guess I'll have to wait and see.

 
Igor's 2254 project is a redesign / hybrid, it's missing key components from the Neve 2254.

The 33609 CAN be built authentically. It's not easy and it's going to be expensive but you can build it to sound like the real deal metal knob Neve.

Regards,
Mark
 
Hi Biasrocks,
thanks for your reply ! Do you know what has to be changed to
Igors 33609 to be authentically ?

so you would recomend the 33609 over the 2254C because the 2254C is
missing key components ?

regards
Nick
 
Yes and yes.

My extensive research when I built my 33609 did result in a shockingly better sounding compressor. 

It actually made Igor's original sound like a plugin version. :eek:

This knowledge was hard earned and I feel somewhat uncompelled to give it out freely.

A close look at the schematics for both compressors will begin to reveal some, not all of the details.

For instance, there's a huge hole in the Igor's 2254 sidechain design.

I would recommend building the 33609 over the 2254 I think you'll get more use out of it and it'll be the closest you get to the real deal.

Mark
 
Igor's 33609 uses the Rev J schematic, so it would depend what version you want to build.
I have not found any differences from the factory J circuit (I have the factory manual) and the Igor boards, using the 24 pos. switches that is.
I would be interested in seeing earlier version schematics to compare...
 
nielsk said:
I would be interested in seeing earlier version schematics to compare...

Actually, Igor based it on the "C" version.

If you're looking to build an authentic first release, metal knob version; the schematic does not reveal all.

Along with a field goal's north of a kilo buck in iron.

Mark
 
Biasrocks said:
...
My extensive research when I built my 33609 did result in a shockingly better sounding compressor. 

It actually made Igor's original sound like a plugin version. :eek:
...

what (exactly) do you mean, mark?
cheers, alex
 
Mark, this is absolutely interesting.

I have compared my second build twice to original 33609, metal knobs, from 1981 IIRC.
The original was never maintained or re-caped, had more thermal noise and one channel was -2 db down.
Test setup - Apogee Rosetta and Big Ben; my CRM, ATC/Adam S3a; good acoustics room (about 40m^2, built in 1984 by English folks).
I mean, enough resolution.

Neither me nor guys from this studio had no any remarks about clone's sound and feel. It was close enough for our poor ears.

Yes, the original was a bit "darker" and somewhat "slower", ohh shit, hate this "audiotalk" language.
PLEASE, I am out of punchy crispy descriptions... Even not in free time with the hands down the blanket.
Sound can't be expressed in volts/db's/percents of distortion. Neither in punch and oumgh.
It is personal experience and can be related to Zen Buddhism experience gaining way, kidding again.
However, I can clearly hear the difference between opa627 and tl071 in...say, 4x10k +2x10pf line balanced receiver  circuit.

This makes me feel strange about your post/revelations.

Yes and yes.

My extensive research when I built my 33609 did result in a shockingly better sounding compressor.

Photos? It can be great if you share your knowledge with another guys.

It actually made Igor's original sound like a plugin version. :eek:

Strange, again. Anyway, it is your personal taste.
Try to take both on analyzer, maybe, you will find a mistake or wrong placed component.

For Igor's compressor: I assume, diode matching, no mistakes, original iron, all is uptospecs, yes?
Plugin, well... inside pics hi-res is necessary to see what is going on.

This knowledge was hard earned and I feel somewhat uncompelled to give it out freely.

You can offer the service for remaking Igor's 33609 into real 33609.
I am the first customer, if the price is OK for my pocket.

About a month ago, had long phone discussion with one guy, who building tube amps, from Beer Sheva.
He needed from me pair of 1:1.5+1.5 input trannies on DU-1, superperm, pri ind 40Hy at least.
After a long discussion about how he replaced the capacitors in his speaker crossovers and other funny stuff,
he statred to talk about cables, battery powered single ended FET amps, etc.
Finally, I run out of patience and asked him just for a joke how much he will take for modding my Adam S3a,
or can we close barter trannies vs modding. He said yes, show me the speakers. I said, cool, come visit for coffee.
The rest was a great source of amusement, aye.
Anyway, don't take personally.

If your mods worth to hear it, I am not kidding now, I am your customer for a years.

A close look at the schematics for both compressors will begin to reveal some, not all of the details.

33609 is copy-pasted from rev. J manual; with the use of original transformers, bit aged capacitors, NOS transistors
and carbon crtacked (if went deep into audiofullery) resistors for audiopath, some have to be matched, it will sound 100% same.
I used bit different layout for makeup amp; however, it is 100% close to BA441....

Some notes for 33609. You can easy find all this on build support thread.

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=26218

Carenhill iron sounds different than origins, and it is known.
6k8 at one of. recoverys has to be 24k, ma bad, it was posted on support thread.
Some guys had a prob with limiter section; if you scroll all the thread,
most of people had no this issue; I spent half a day to compare my 33609 to original and haven't found any
prob with limiter section, however, maybe I missing something?
For instance, there's a huge hole in the Igor's 2254 sidechain design.

He'll undoubtedly call it feature.  ::)

Nope. Mostly used thing is compressor section.
Needed space at front for sidechain hi-pass sidechain filters, than, limiter section gone.
IMHO, 2254C is more usefull and easyer to build.

Anyway, just my $0.25. People and tastes are different.
My apologies for a long post, but Igor's comp sounded as plugin is what I understood using Google translator.
If I got this wrong, please, my apologies again.
 
Biasrocks said:
Yes and yes.

My extensive research when I built my 33609 did result in a shockingly better sounding compressor. 

It actually made Igor's original sound like a plugin version. :eek:

This knowledge was hard earned and I feel somewhat uncompelled to give it out freely.

A close look at the schematics for both compressors will begin to reveal some, not all of the details.

For instance, there's a huge hole in the Igor's 2254 sidechain design.

I would recommend building the 33609 over the 2254 I think you'll get more use out of it and it'll be the closest you get to the real deal.

Mark

If you used Igor's PCB's for your testing and improving, stop nagging and thank him instead for releasing the PCB's , cause nobody else did it before.
If you feel the need for improving the unit , go ahead. I'm sure plenty of people are happy how it sounds now.
 
wow thats a lot of reply...

I hope my thread does not provoke some kind of DIY war/fight -
thats not what I wanted.

my question is more to know what you guys think brings me
closer to the original 33609 that I used once and loved. (soundwise)
Igors newer 2254C Projekt or Igors older 33609 Projekt.

Nick
 
Nope, there won't be any war. All we can say what we thinking. Many people. Many oppinions.
Sometimes, adding IMO helps :)

I'd use IMHO again, 2254C is more versatile for my needs. However, if there is an interest to 33609 PCB's,
can make small batch and offer them at my store.
Anyway, just look over this place, you have tones of great projects here.
Read, take some time, compare.
I am very introversive for projects offered here: if it is works for me 100%, it is here as well. 
 
Igor said:
I have compared my second build twice to original 33609, metal knobs, from 1981 IIRC.
The original was never maintained or re-caped, had more thermal noise and one channel was -2 db down.
Test setup - Apogee Rosetta and Big Ben; my CRM, ATC/Adam S3a; good acoustics room (about 40m^2, built in 1984 by English folks).
I mean, enough resolution.

Perhaps you should do the required maintenance on the original and compare again.

The differences in sound between your suggested BOM and my researched BOM wasn't subtle.

I'm not saying that folks won't be happy with how it sounds built to your specs. In fact a few have chimed in already. My build features original Marinar/St.Ives iron from tip to toe including the proper LO1173 output transformers. I wasn't personally satisfied with the stock build and went the extra mile - or five. But, I do that with most of the things I build.

YMMV.

Mark
 
Biasrocks said:
Igor said:
I have compared my second build twice to original 33609, metal knobs, from 1981 IIRC.
The original was never maintained or re-caped, had more thermal noise and one channel was -2 db down.
Test setup - Apogee Rosetta and Big Ben; my CRM, ATC/Adam S3a; good acoustics room (about 40m^2, built in 1984 by English folks).
I mean, enough resolution.

Perhaps you should do the required maintenance on the original and compare again.

The differences in sound between your suggested BOM and my researched BOM wasn't subtle.

I'm not saying that folks won't be happy with how it sounds built to your specs. In fact a few have chimed in already. My build features original Marinar/St.Ives iron from tip to toe including the proper LO1173 output transformers. I wasn't personally satisfied with the stock build and went the extra mile - or five. But, I do that with most of the things I build.

YMMV.

Mark

Mark: if you can share your info with other builders, it would be great.
It is like we both make steaks and I say now: you know man, your make your steaks wrong.
Mine better. But I won't give you taste my steaks or discover secret method how to make a good steak.
Firs, curiosity is fired up. Second....something is wrong here.
From my stupid point of view of simple logic, the steak thing contains some....non-logic BS, IMHO; YMMV.

I like the philosophy of South Park, S15; they became completely cynic, YKWIM.

So, post your mods and many people will have a huge respect, or, offer these mods for reasonable price.

I spent some long hours with 33609, and, if your mods are really good,
have a huge respect to it and want to see what is under the cover.

I will pass on BOM when have a time, thanx for pointing.
If it was my studio, of course, I was recap the oldy....or leave it as-is for more fun :)

Sorry if my English have some mistakes, almost asleep.

I wasn't personally satisfied with the stock build and went the extra mile - or five. But, I do that with most of the things I build.

Mm. I have a friend with same mind. Good folk. But hard character, what can I say :)
He told me about top secret with all Neve class A builds. I was praying him for years to discover.
Now, guess what. He went some extra miles to discover it should be loaded properly at the output.

If you found mistake, feel free to share it.
 
My extensive research when I built my 33609 did result in a shockingly better sounding compressor.
It actually made Igor's original sound like a plugin version. :eek:
This knowledge was hard earned and I feel somewhat uncompelled to give it out freely.
People only benefit from collaboration if willing to share themselves. A lot of people on this forum have shared hard earned knowledge.
My experience is that I built Igor's 33609 with Carnhill transformers and lent it to a recording studio for a month. They used it side by side with an original Neve and they observed that they were so similar that any differences were extremely subtle, to the point of not being sure there were any differences. Without knowing what changes you made, it is hard for me to engage in a discussion on it. But I didn't find any problems with this project that reading through the threads didn't solve.


 
dmp said:
People only benefit from collaboration if willing to share themselves. A lot of people on this forum have shared hard earned knowledge.

I have personally shared hard earned knowledge many times on this forum. Sorting the REV A values and compiling them into a digestable form with the help of a couple of other generous folks on the forum, is still available on my ftp site.

In fact those tweaks are being shared on Ebay as we speak. :)

I've been bitten in the ass one too many times, hence my reluctance to share.

On the sound;

I don't doubt that they sounded similar. If you build it with original iron you'll be 90% of the way there with the standard BOM.

The changes I made were in keeping with how Neve built them originally, no modifying black magic/voodoo or internet hype was applied. This knowledge is hard earned, by putting in a lot of hours finding it. It's not unattainable if you go looking.

Mark
 
Biasrocks,

but why don't you share the Info with Igor - I think he will not sell it
on ebay - so he would be able to change the necessary things
in the project, so that all 33609 builders get the real "sound" ?

Doing so you could give something back to him, for the HARD work of making
this and other projects.

but well it's up to you
 
Reminds me of an Arrested Development episode... "It's like she gets off on being withholding..."

Joke aside though, why tell everyone you have a secret, when you intend to keep it a secret? This is playground type stuff.

It's your prerogative to keep your own hard-earned information to yourself , there's no question. So let's all just drop it if he doesn't want to share his cookies with the class, and keep this from actually becoming a tension creating issue
 

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