Is this mix balance OK?

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DaveP

DaveP

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
3,028
Location
France
I recorded this as a record of how my band sounded in the late 60's.

http://soundcloud.com/delayed-action/rock-roll-woman

Does it sound ok on your monitors, I've taken the good advice from the guys who replied to my previous post.

best

DaveP
 
Sounds pretty good. I would be cautious with the very bottom octave though, it sounds a bit forward around 30-40Hz, especially the kick. If any bass boost is applied on playback it may well turn a bit swampy. Listening on my DT250s.
 
Thanks Dan,

That was what I was afraid of, I have real difficulty getting the bass right despite using 4 sets of speakers including those in my car!  The kick was boosted at 75Hz, I would be surprised if I had much at 30~40Hz but thats why I'm asking cos I'm unsure.

I'm beginning to think I'll have to make myself some new monitors.

best
DaveP
 
well I can't judge yet... still working on my Davetone monitors.  ;D. On my other diy monitors it sounds pretty ok... apart from the previous remarks on the bottom end, there seems to be some pumping going on... is there some compression going on working with the low end on the master bus?
 
As mentioned previously, low end needs some work, pumping compressor on the mix bus is irritating, and I would turn the main vocal up a little (maybe at a little more high-end there, too). Otherwise it sounds interestingly 60s-ish (though without the distortion and noise). What gear did you use?
 
living sounds said:
As mentioned previously, low end needs some work, pumping compressor on the mix bus is irritating, and I would turn the main vocal up a little (maybe at a little more high-end there, too). Otherwise it sounds interestingly 60s-ish (though without the distortion and noise). What gear did you use?
Click to expand...

Vocals went in via Rode NT1A into REDD47 tube micpre, then LA2-A into Yamaha AW16G digital recorder.  Guitars DI'd.  Drummer was miked up with SM57's and an AKG kick mike.

This is worrying me, because I can't hear the pumping you're talking about, and I was concerned the vocal was too bright?  Is the pumping due to the compression settings I'm using, i,e too fast?

thanks
DaveP
 
the compressor pumping might be caused by the weight of the low end. Too much energy in the low end will cause the compressor to work too hard during the kick and thus ducking the whole signal. I would say: switch off compression on main bus, then check the kick. Take out some 20-70hz. switch bus compression back on and adjust till you have a maximum of 2-4 db of compression on the main bus.
Alternatively, use a multi band compressor on the main bus. Or compress the drum bus a bit. But in both cases you should do something about the low end, and my guts say it is the kick. What helps me in those cases is to use a spectrum analyser. You could even use the DDMF IIEQ pro demo, but the full version is not a lot of money: http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=0. set up two or three reference tracks in your daw as well. (check some work of a Dutch singer Paulusma, your track reminds me of that work). Compare the spectrum analysis of your track and the reference tracks. If you see a big difference in a certain area, start muting instruments/tracks. That way you can figure out where that difference is coming from. correct that track or those tracks and un-mute the channels one by one and keep an eye on your spectrum analyser.

This might sound like a horrible non musical you should use your ears way, but it works for me :)

Erik
 
Hi Dave,

Very cool vocal sound!

Problem areas I hear are the bass drum track - sounds a bit heavy, almost as if initial tracking level may have been too high or signal maybe didn't have enough low end coming in?

2nd is toms.  They're a bit peaky sounding and poke out from the mix a little too much in some spots(like right at the head of the guitar solo).  Dipping upper mids may help that.  If not it may have same issue as the bass drum track - too close sounding during tracking.  The first thing I would try is moving the mics back from the source.  After taking a quick listen to the original I would say you were right on radar for the tonality of the original drum sound though.  Very nice to hear those smooth vocal tracks expanded so clearly like that - nice!  Onboard reverb?

FWIW I've had a similar issue tracking drums into those stand alone digi recorders using a vintage front end tracking chain.  Bottom end didn't seem to translate as well as expected and tried to fix with onboard EQ and it just wouldn't happen.  Mids and low mids were already out of balance with the lower octave.
 
Vocals sound good. Guitars are too quiet(except for the solo, neat sound btw). Too much compression on the drums and it sounds like it could have been an issue when it was first recorded/miked up.

First impression was too much compression on the drums and too boomy of a kick/overall sound. I'd suggest bringing everything up without any effects/compression, soloing the drums and working on a good 'overall' drum sound. Bass is getting lost in kick drum. Get your hpf's working to emphasize more midrange and give things room in the mix.
 
Thanks to everyone for your positive and very helpful advice.

I played the track on my speakers at home and its terrible, far too much kick drum and as you say, bass ill defined.  The stereo bus limiter is obviously struggling with that kick and causing the pumping.

My monitors at the studio are not bass reflex so the bass drops off and I have obviously tried to compensate for this and caused the problem.  I think that most small powered studio monitors must have bass boost to rectify the physics of small cabinets.  Mine are not powered.

I was wondering, should I put bass boost on the stereo bus EQ that is the opposite of the bass drop on my monitors?  In theory this should cancel out the problem as it won't let me give too much bass EQ to my tracks.

The drums were recorded four years ago so I'm stuck with them, tom tom was a problem and yes they were probably over compressed at the time.  Yes I just use the onboard Yamaha reverb.

You've all been very kind and helpful and it reminds me why I love this forum so much.  My overall project is to produce a CD for my kids, as you get older it gets kind of important to leave some kind of record of what you did, I am sure you will all feel the same.

best
DaveP
 
do you still have the multitrack or just the stereo file?

Do not put any eq on your master bus to compensate for your speakers. If you want to go that way, but a low boost eq on your monitoring bus.

You can easily mix well on any kind of speakers. Just get to know them. Use reference tracks and spectrum analysis.
And do not spend too much time behind the mixing console... take your kids out instead ;-) 
 
erikb1971 said:
do you still have the multitrack or just the stereo file?

Do not put any eq on your master bus to compensate for your speakers. If you want to go that way, but a low boost eq on your monitoring bus.

You can easily mix well on any kind of speakers. Just get to know them. Use reference tracks and spectrum analysis.
And do not spend too much time behind the mixing console... take your kids out instead ;-) 
Click to expand...

Erik, my kids are in their 30's so they are much more likely to take me out! ;D

BTW, Yes I still have the multitack.  The Yamaha is not that sophisticated, it does not have a monitoring bus EQ, just an output to line and phones.  I don't have a spectrum analyser but often wish I did.

My monitoring amp does not have any tone controls or EQ either so I am stuck with EQing the stereo bus.

thanks

DaveP
 
what you could do is make an instrumental mix, and just a drum mix. make wav files of those. put them in your computer. use a free wav editor like http://download.cnet.com/WavePad-Sound-Editor/3000-2170_4-10276212.html or find a not too legal version of wavelab or something. With the demo version of the eq I mentioned you can already see what is going on there without spending any money (it has a build in spectrum analyser). With the demo you can find the correcting frequencies and apply those to your original tracks. But then again... just take out some of the 30-70 hz from the kick and turn down the ratio of your bus compressor will probably go a long way as well! 
 
I would just hi-pass the kick, if you can do that, and take the mix again. That will sort out the pumping and keep it all glued together.

The rest of it was pretty good overall, to my ears.
 
MagnetoSound said:
I would just hi-pass the kick, if you can do that, and take the mix again. That will sort out the pumping and keep it all glued together.
/quote]
desol said:
First impression was too much compression on the drums and too boomy of a kick/overall sound. I'd suggest bringing everything up without any effects/compression, soloing the drums and working on a good 'overall' drum sound. Bass is getting lost in kick drum. Get your hpf's working to emphasize more midrange and give things room in the mix.
Click to expand...

Thanks to everyone, I now have a plan A, B, & C and hope to post the remixed track next week.

all the best
DaveP
Click to expand...
 
Hey Dave! Nice tunes. I took a listen to all 3 that you have posted on Soundcloud. Did you mix all of them? I have to say that Heading for Nowhere sounds really good. Still a little too much low on the kick, but the mix as a whole is really nice. Agreed with above about the vocal sound. It's phenomenal! I like the guitars and bass too. Very nice stuff. This is listening through my ATH M 50 headphones. I just moved, so no monitors at the moment.

I am blown away by the sound out of that AW16G. I have thought about going to a digital recorder for a long time to escape the DAW mouse mixing. Anyway, sounds really good, and I think it's a testament to having limits on the number of tools available.

Looking forward to the remix!
 
Insomniaclown said:
I am blown away by the sound out of that AW16G. I have thought about going to a digital recorder for a long time to escape the DAW mouse mixing. Anyway, sounds really good, and I think it's a testament to having limits on the number of tools available.
Click to expand...

Thanks Insomniaclown,

Yes all the mixes were on the Yamaha.

I bought it 2nd hand from a guy who decided to move up to a DAW.  He did and was plagued with latency problems and regreted the move.  My basic idea was that it should be as close to a tape recorder as possible, that is to say, its only job is to record well, and that it does.  Some of the controls are a bit clunky but if you use it regularly you get used to that like you do typing on a keyboard.  Like you said, the discipline of only having 16 tracks with 8  paired seems to make you do things better.  You have to use your ears more because you can't see whats going on, having said that you can exactly cut a track down to the mS by going into the wave function.  I try to keep it analogue right up to the tracking and just use the onboard stuff like the effects.  The onboard reverb is pretty good.

all the best
DaveP
 
DaveP said:
I bought it 2nd hand from a guy who decided to move up to a DAW.  He did and was plagued with latency problems and regreted the move. 
Click to expand...

There are alot of people that seemingly didn't anticipate that(or did, but ignored it), but were more concerned with all the convenience, graphics and plugins. Junk, in other words. I run Samplitude X on an i7 2600, 8 gigs of ram and a SATA 3 drive...with an MBOX 3...and things are only just starting to function the way i would expect for sound.

Thanks to the i7...and it's memory configuration/bus/protocol.

Sorry, off topic...but your comment struck a cord with me.
 
Ok, I've re-mixed the track here:-
http://soundcloud.com/delayed-action/rock-roll-woman-2

I took off all the boost on the kick, its now flat. 

I moved the EQ on the bass up to give it more top and reduced the compression to give it more attack.

I gave the lead vocal another 2db and the same for the guitars.

Until I sort out my monitors I shall have to rely on you guys,

Erik, Lassoharp, Desol, Magneto, Insomnia, living sounds and any others thanks for your input and I hope I've made a better job this time.

best
DaveP
 

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