How do you guys "pink" your room?

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mulletchuck

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Jan 9, 2010
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Midwood, Brooklyn, NYC
I thought I'd do some pink noise sweeps of my room to kinda get a feel for how much it sucks on a scientific level lol.    I already know it sucks based on my ears, but now i have scientific proof.   

No, i did not use a flat mic lol.  so i definitely need to get ahold of one of those.  What do you guys use to pink-noise test your room and figure out what frequency deficiencies it has? 

 

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A friend of mine has been using a little Behringer SDC that supposedly is a clone of those squeaky-clean Earthworks mics (here's an ebay link... don't think they make 'em anymore) and Voxengo SPAN in Cubase. Just sit the mic in the sweet spot and let 'er rip at about 85db.

I've been amazed to see the difference in his measurements as he's been doing some DIY acoustic treatment, soffits, traps, etc.
 
oh yeah?    What's his process for measuring?  I ran each test in that pic for 120 seconds. 

edit:  found this:  http://www.realtraps.com/art_microphones.htm  pretty informative :)
 
I run a broad signal, I have used pink noise and an audio track, the results are the same.  I record it with an omni mic, I use an earthworks clone, but I have also used other omni's. The mic is mounted pointing up (but it is omni) where my head is when listening. Then I use Logic Pro (I don't have protools) to do a match-eq comparsion of the original signal and the mic'd signal.  That produces an EQ frequency pattern that I patch into the last stage of the mixing process while listening. 

But remember to take the match EQ off before you master.

(MatchEQ is an effect that compares two signal samples and creates an EQ curve to transform the frequency response of one, to match the other).

I would be happy to hear a better way if a pro knows.
 
Could you explain the match EQ comparison process?  i have logic, but I did all my testing in SpectraFoo.  I don't quite understand how you compare the two outputs (original file thru match EQ and the Mic'd Signal thru MatchEQ) unless it's just a visual comparison.
 
Stay away 3 meters from the mice and post the file.
It would be nice one to hear and many people here can hear different things I belief!
Well this is totaly unscientific
 
If you have logic pro, it contains an effect called "Match EQ", if you have logic express... no luck.

Take any signal that covers the full audio spectrum, pink noise is fine.  Play it through your monitors, while recording the sound of the monitors from an omni mic mounted where your head is when listening.

Then play a "chosen" segment  (meaning a segment you know when it begins and ends) of that signal with the match EQ in the output master and use Match EQ to "Learn" a the original sample (or the recorded sample I forget it is one way or the other), then you play THE EXACT same time period from the recorded signal and do the COMPARE function in match EQ, and it produces an EQ curve that you can save with a name. You may have to look at the doc on this, but it is somewhat self evident.

Then you turn that match eq effect on and APPLY some percentage of the EQ (I do 100%) to basically bump the exact frequencies that the room is eating and dip the exact frequencies that the room is resonating...

You obviously don't do the recording while someone is making noise in the room or it screws up the comparison.

Here is a match EQ I did on some mixing I was doing at a friends house without a subwoofer.

I am doing this from memory, I only do it when I change things, and I have to figure it out a little each time but it is pretty obvious.  That's why I can't give you a click by click process, sorry.  But the attached picture should help.

And I agree you should stay at least 3 meters from any mice, even if it is unscientific  ;)

My experience is that the resulting mixes present better on a variety of speakers (car, room, headphones) but I admit it gets a bit confusing.  When you put on the headphones, you have to be listening to an output that that has no matchEQ or you have to bypass the effect, and of course you want to bypass it when bouncing because otherwise you are putting your room corrections in other peoples speakers generally nullifying the benefit of any flatness you achieved in your mixing and listening environment.

And obviously part of the defect detected is the room and part of the defect is the speakers, and part is the mic...  So the whole 100% thing... might not fix the low end in small cone monitors.... or might over correct some room defect if the room defect was really a mic defect or some comb reflection off a wall or something, but in general I find the result to be a flatter listening environment, and it is quick, the most time consuming thing is to set up a mic and record, and there is not much fiddling after the fact.

Does this help at all?

If it is not clear I want to emphesize that I am listening to a mix through an eq that looks like the one in the attachment... and the result is that what is playing is distorted to that extent, but the distortion is the inverse of the distortion that the room and speakers achieve where my ears are placed.

Sorry to ramble on I am not sure what part is unclear.

If you look on that curve you can tell the EQ'd room had 8.5 foot cielings, because of the big dip to correct for the resonance at 125Hz.... ok maybe they were 9 foot ...or 8 foot but you get the idea.
 

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mulletchuck said:
I thought I'd do some pink noise sweeps of my room to kinda get a feel for how much it sucks on a scientific level lol.    I already know it sucks based on my ears, but now i have scientific proof.   

No, i did not use a flat mic lol.  so i definitely need to get ahold of one of those.  What do you guys use to pink-noise test your room and figure out what frequency deficiencies it has?

I use Smaart 7 in transfer-function mode with an Audix TR-40 and the Smaart I-O. RTA mode is worthless because it won't tell you why there's a suckout or a bump.  You really do need the phase information.

And remember that most of your problems will be architectural and you can't fix those problems with EQ.

-a
 
Andy Peters said:
mulletchuck said:
I thought I'd do some pink noise sweeps of my room to kinda get a feel for how much it sucks on a scientific level lol.    I already know it sucks based on my ears, but now i have scientific proof.   

No, i did not use a flat mic lol.  so i definitely need to get ahold of one of those.  What do you guys use to pink-noise test your room and figure out what frequency deficiencies it has?

I use Smaart 7 in transfer-function mode with an Audix TR-40 and the Smaart I-O. RTA mode is worthless because it won't tell you why there's a suckout or a bump.  You really do need the phase information.

And remember that most of your problems will be architectural and you can't fix those problems with EQ.

-a

Is the smart I/O  necessary or can you use other I/O with smaart?
 
mulletchuck said:
if all problems related to room acoustics are architectural based, what are the "perfect" room dimensions?

That's not the point, really. All rooms are different, depending on usage need and what you're able to build out.

What I meant was that if there is a reflection caused by some architectural feature in the room, then no amount of electronic equalization will fix it. The reflection can cause a suck-out or a boost, and of course the frequencies at which the suck-out or bump occurs will be path-length dependent.

-a
 
pucho812 said:
Is the smart I/O  necessary or can you use other I/O with smaart?

You can use any audio device which the OS accesses through standard drivers. FireWire, PCI, built-in, USB, whatever.

The Smaart I-O has repeatable precise gain steps (no knobs, all computer-controlled) because the hard-core measurement guys need that.

-a
 
mulletchuck said:
if all problems related to room acoustics are architectural based, what are the "perfect" room dimensions?
There are loadsa "magic" dimensions for rectangular rooms.

eg Olson        2.52 x 1.59 x 1
Golden Mean  2.618 x 1.618 x1

my favourite is

Louden          1.9 x 1.4 x 1  as it allows high ceilings.

I'll leave it to the pseudo acoustic gurus to argue the merits of each.

However, whatever dimensions you use, it is VITAL NOT to have parallel walls.  Each set of opposite surfaces including the floor/ceiling need to be wonky.  About 2 degrees is sufficient.

With perfectly parallel walls, you will have severe flutter echoes that need so much damping that your RT will be lower than ideal.  Wonky walls give you much more flexibility.

Don't ask me how I know this  :mad:
 
Andy Peters said:
pucho812 said:
Is the smart I/O  necessary or can you use other I/O with smaart?

You can use any audio device which the OS accesses through standard drivers. FireWire, PCI, built-in, USB, whatever.

The Smaart I-O has repeatable precise gain steps (no knobs, all computer-controlled) because the hard-core measurement guys need that.

-a

thanks
 
Those are ratios chuck (from ricardo). 

Also pickup Alton Evererst Acoustic book(s).  Very easy read and lots of easy to discern info on room acoustics and solutions.  It's nice having a larger volume of air to help out.  generally 3000 cu ft to make bass sound right.  But the ear is an amazing thing that adapts to a lot of situations.
 
I use a sub and go with a plugin to eq and x over, some software analyzer I have at hand for testing but I always ask my headphones for precission in bass response... I have to work in some bass traps and such but when not working at home I use my headphones a lot for eqing and monitors for everything else, always listen a couple of reference tracks before start working, even at home, I let music play when I'm setting up everything and then listen 2 or 3 tracks closely of something I know well and near to the style of what I'm going to work on.

JS
 
Unfortunately match EQ's are no replacement for proper room treatment.

Look at the original plots in the first post:  the room response varies 12+dB just by moving to different parts of the room.  Match EQ's are valid ONLY FOR THAT EXACT POSITION.  Moving your chair/head 4 inches to one side can give a completely different EQ curve.  This happens in treated rooms, but the deviation is orders of magnitude less.

Room treatment is the best bang-for-the-buck that can be spent studio-equipment wise.  With some bass trapping at the corners and some diffusion/absorption on the side walls, and the ceiling at monitor reflection points, your EQ and mixing decisions will be vastly improved.
 
With EQ I just kill worse peaks, resonance of the room till build bass traps, unfortunately I can't put resonant membane because moisture, I'm working on that but walls will stay wet some time, so I'm thinking in resistive traps, some big cylinders of absorbent material at corners and some absortion in walls and ceiling, also when I have the time a couple diffusors at the back wall.

I'm using a lot of wine bottles at the corner off the front wall and floor from one side wall to the other as resonant traps for 100Hz to 125Hz. The idea is to complete a wall I'm missing in the room with bottles.

JS
 
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