Fukushima

Was up all night for the past 2 days reading all about how this is potentially and end-of-days scenario if TEPCO messes this up (moving the 1300 fuel rods). Tell me I am wrong, please! School me! There must be some smart nuclear people on here...

TEPCO has mismanaged it before during and after the tsunami... I guess this is in the news again because of a recent bad storm over there. [edit] actually an earthquake centered some 30 miles away [/edit]

They have contaminated the local ground water, and local sea water. I read one story a while back about them freezing the ground to create a barrier to hinder contaminated ground water movement.

The Japanese have enough cultural memory about nuclear power to not cause the end of the world due to lack of concern. (Think Godzilla, a hyperbolic object lesson/warning about atmospheric nuclear testing.)

Speaking with a friend recently who knows a lot more than I about nuclear energy, he/we feel that the world is losing out on an opportunity by mothballing nuclear power before it has run it's course. I can imagine it becoming obsolete within the century, but it is falling out of favor much faster than that. 

There are safer and more efficient nuclear cycles that could be employed in new nuclear plants but the negative public opinion (perhaps fueled by the over imaginative media trying to stir up fear) is making broad government support a thing of the past.

JR

PS: I do not consider N Korea restarting their plutonium reactor a good use of nuclear power, nor the "peaceful" (cough) pursuit of nuclear energy by Iran. The last I looked into this only India was investing into and building one of the next generation reactors, but most of the west is locked into several decades old reactor designs.

I am wondering this myself, last I heard it was leaking into the ocean and they do not know where the link is so they can't plug it up. Last I read exposure was the equivalent to working in a nuclear power plant for 5 years. I am wondering if spilling into the ocean will dilute any of the effects at all? I honestly do not know if it will or it will not.  anyone?

I have been to so many sites with articles seeming to have good information that the leaking is a minor problem, compared to these fuel rods. Truly apocalyptic stuff! And then there are other articles saying no big deal, carry on... Of course, official government statements are vague.

Conspiracy theory? Massive cover-up? Nonsense?

http://rt.com/news/fukushima-apocalypse-fuel-removal-598/

http://hatrickpenryunbound.com/?p=3683

I mean IF this stuff is true!

And John Roberts, you hit the nail on the head. Nuclear power COULD be very safe with some of the new designs.

Any link that has apocalypse in the title just may be inflammatory and trying to scare you.

Yes the fuel rods are still hot so must be handled carefully, but they put them in didn't they? Removing them requires careful handling, and safe storage. One risk of how TEPCO manages the plants in Japan is storing the fuel on site, but that is a business cost concern. Would be nice if that sit was less risky, but it's Japan known for active plate tectonics.

JR

I'm following this situation since accident happened and know a bit about uranium and thorium fuel cycle. Th reactor is proven technology, much safer than U, Pu or MOX, more effective, it makes little sense to use it for weapons, meltdown can't happen (fuel has to be hot to produce electricity), etc. The "problem" with Th seen by Teller and Moir is that it won't make weapons easily. Btw, Weinberg who has done a lot of research on Th, iirc also ran Th reactor for some time, retired because US wanted new reactors which will be more efficient, like Th, but will also produce weapon grade material...
As i see it the problem of Fukushima is lack/suppression of information and very slow reactions by TEPCO, government and the rest of the world. It seems like no one knows what is really happening there, lately i see many desperate reactions by TEPCO. Of course they put the rods in spent pool, but it is damaged now, doesn't have crane to pull them out easily, surrounding is radioactive, they don't really know condition of rods and their cases. I heard reports of highly radioactive steam coming out from ground cracks near reactors where fuel melted for sure. They don't know where this fuel is now, in what condition, etc. Compared to spent pool it is much harder to say anything about it because they can't just open reactors to look inside or beneath them.
Self sustaining nuclear reaction from the spent fuel rods is unlikely, i see this as apocalypse story from people who don't know much about rods/cask designs and nuclear reaction. What makes me worry is melted fuel and the fact that Fukushima already released 20 times more radiation than Hiroshima bomb. Until now. And no one knows temperature and location of melted fuel when there are sudden high releases of radiation, which i think is a very serious problem.

Thanks for some informed input. The elephant in the room that is hobbling TEPCOs remedies is the cost. When Japan shuttered all those nuclear plants, some forever, they had to make up for the lost electricity supply, most likely with NG generation that is a lot more expensive over there than here... So they are likely bleeding yen just to keep the country supplied with electricity, and these clean-up costs will be huge. Not a good time for TEPCO and they will be very motivated to keep costs under control. Not a good project to cut corners on.

JR

JohnRoberts said:

The elephant in the room that is hobbling TEPCOs remedies is the cost.
JR

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Last I heard (recently), Japan is taking over cleanup from TEPCo.  The real cleanup problem is that it's a massive, massive problem.  Getting spent fuel rods out of trashed, flooded, extremely hot reactors is not easy.  The water problem referenced above is still something of a mystery, and if they figure out how to address it, it will likely be incredibly expensive.  No corporation, even in the best of health, has the means to deal with a problem like Fukushima--neither the money nor the brainpower--so I see the Japanese govt. stepping in as a good sign. 

On another note:  while I'm largely opposed to nuclear power, the spent fuel reactor seems like a smart idea.  It generates power while helping with the waste disposal problem that plagues the nuclear industry.  It seems like a smarter way to go than building more conventional reactors.

hodad said:

JohnRoberts said:

The elephant in the room that is hobbling TEPCOs remedies is the cost.
JR

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Last I heard (recently), Japan is taking over cleanup from TEPCo.  The real cleanup problem is that it's a massive, massive problem.  Getting spent fuel rods out of trashed, flooded, extremely hot reactors is not easy.  The water problem referenced above is still something of a mystery, and if they figure out how to address it, it will likely be incredibly expensive.  No corporation, even in the best of health, has the means to deal with a problem like Fukushima--neither the money nor the brainpower--so I see the Japanese govt. stepping in as a good sign. 

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With regulated utilities, the government and by extension the consumers are always on the hook for costs. It is a coin toss whether the japanese consumers pay for this with higher rates or higher taxes.

On another note:  while I'm largely opposed to nuclear power, the spent fuel reactor seems like a smart idea.  It generates power while helping with the waste disposal problem that plagues the nuclear industry.  It seems like a smarter way to go than building more conventional reactors.

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I need to tread lightly since I am outside my area of expertise. The French have long been recycling their spent fuel which generates less final waste, but IIRC the cycle involves fissionable product that could be weaponized.

The ideal future nuclear cycle is cleaner and not readily weaponizable.

The problem is any new system requires a huge commitment from government (and industry) to vet the new technology and establish safe operating standards. I do not perceive much enthusiasm from western governments to make this kind of investment that isn't appreciated by voters (more feared). The sundry rouge nations have zero interest in non-weaponizable cycles.  It seems worth perfecting and giving such to these punk nations just to prevent them from distorting regional politics by building bigger bombs. 

JR

PS My recollection is that India was developing a reactor based on the newer cycle, but it has been a few years since I heard any new about it. India and Pakistan already have enough bombs to make the region glow in the dark.

The waste is impossible to control.  What do you do with it?

Sorry this is so long but its a recent change in my attitude about nuclear energy policies.   

The DOE and AEC in this country have allowed the release of radiation at Rocky Flats in Colorado during the 50's and 60's and not disclosed to the public that the events even happened.  There is plutonium in the ground surrounding the plant due to fires during the production of triggers for weapons that had to continue for national security purposes according to the AEC and DOE.  So in Denver they closed the plant after extreme protest back in the 90's after 50 years of operation.  At the time the plant which had produced 70,000 triggers was so contaminated that it was estimated to require 50 billion to clean up and would take  60 years to clean up due to the need for development of technology that didn't exist yet.  After a period of 5 to 7 years, they spent about 6 to 7 billion and said it was cleaned up.  Contaminated building were torn down to ground level and the bulk of the production happened underground anyway.  Those floors were so contaminated that the only thing that could be done was to place steel and lead and concrete over the production areas and then cover that in dirt.  The main area of the grounds of the plant is too contaminated to set foot on and is not cleaned up, just covered up.  Places in the west that are disposal sites would not take waste from the Flat's,that had been stored outside in barrels open to the air.  The barrels  containing plutonium waste , Carbon tetracloride , and various acids used to coverup the plutonium  and prevent it from catching on fire and create a criticality  ( release of lethal radioactivity alfa beta and gamma rays and other actual radioactive materials/elements).  The regulating agencies would not test the grounds around the plant  because they knew they were contaminated outside the plant.  Finally outside scientist tested and confirmed indeed there was plutonium,  and outher buy products of a critical condition occurring.  There is way more to this story.  If you want to know more,  pickup a copy of "Body of Burden" by Christen Iversen.  Its well researched and documented. 

What does this have to do with Fukushima?   

The Waste is always the problem and that is not figured into the true cost of nuclear energy when building a reactor.  We know of a few incidents that show how reactors have released contamination but the storage of waste is also a problem. No one will take it because it contains liquids or its in an improper storage state. This means it sets on sites and the public is not informed of the situation.    The half life of these waste products are 24,000 years and up.  It takes 10 time the half life to become somewhat safe or 240,000 thousand years.     

After Rocky Flatts was closed and said to be made safe,  the top layer of dirt, (3 feet) was replaced with new soil that could not exceed 50 pico curries of radioactivity.  In the US average radioactivity is .04 pico curries.  50 is considered to high from many scientist.  But under 3 feet the actually radioactivity can approach 200 pico curries.  Thats the same level 50 years after the test of the 1st atomic bomb blast in the desert in America.    After 10 feet of soil depth, there are no limits set as to the radioactive level.  God knows what that level is.   

There is a much higher incident of cancer from large growth tumors and leukemia in the Denver area and it has one of the highest rate of MS in the country.    Some of these figures have taken 30 years to show up after the plant had a plutonium fire burn the roof off a contaminated building in 1957.  Dow Chemical (and later Rockwell International) never announced that a radioactive breach happened during that fire. Independent scientist conducted test after the 1969 fire (that was noticed by the public)  that showed radioactivity in soils and waters in the surrounding areas east the plant.  The reply from Rockwell was this was caused from the 1957 fire not the 1969 recent fire.    Later both firms were sued but the AEC has a Federal Indemnity Protection Law that keeps the public from filing charges against the business that operated the plant  as well as the DOE.   

If you look at your home insurance policy there is an exclusion for radiation contamination no matter what its from.  These Indemnity protection laws were passed after the bomb dropped on Japan and protect the government and companies working for the government from being prosecuted for any harm they may have cause the public. 

I supported the idea of nuclear reactors as an energy source but can no longer go down this path with all the criminal actions of businesses and Federal Agency's looking for profits or weapons production at the expense of the people they are to protect, and with indemnity when they do a terrible job at it.    When it goes out of control,  there is a 250,000 year problem for future generations.  And in most cases the health  problems take up to 30 to identify.

The cost is way greater than the benefit.

Word is they are starting production back up in New Mexico due to the limited safe life span of triggers for bombs we currently have.

70,000 plutonium triggers!!!  WTF is that about if its not about Money.    How many do you need to make  to protect the planet?????? 

fazer said:

The waste is impossible to control.  What do you do with it?

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I'd convert to a process that generates less waste, Then I'd dump long term waste into the subduction zone where two tectonic plates over lap  so the nuclear waste is drawn down under the earth's crust ....

Sorry this is so long but its a recent change in my attitude about nuclear energy policies.   

The DOE and AEC in this country have allowed the release of radiation at Rocky Flats in Colorado during the 50's and 60's and not disclosed to the public that the events even happened.  There is plutonium in the ground surrounding the plant due to fires during the production of triggers for weapons that had to continue for national security purposes according to the AEC and DOE.  So in Denver they closed the plant after extreme protest back in the 90's after 50 years of operation.  At the time the plant which had produced 70,000 triggers was so contaminated that it was estimated to require 50 billion to clean up and would take  60 years to clean up due to the need for development of technology that didn't exist yet.  After a period of 5 to 7 years, they spent about 6 to 7 billion and said it was cleaned up.  Contaminated building were torn down to ground level and the bulk of the production happened underground anyway.  Those floors were so contaminated that the only thing that could be done was to place steel and lead and concrete over the production areas and then cover that in dirt.  The main area of the grounds of the plant is too contaminated to set foot on and is not cleaned up, just covered up.  Places in the west that are disposal sites would not take waste from the Flat's,that had been stored outside in barrels open to the air.  The barrels  containing plutonium waste , Carbon tetracloride , and various acids used to coverup the plutonium  and prevent it from catching on fire and create a criticality  ( release of lethal radioactivity alfa beta and gamma rays and other actual radioactive materials/elements).  The regulating agencies would not test the grounds around the plant  because they knew they were contaminated outside the plant.  Finally outside scientist tested and confirmed indeed there was plutonium,  and outher buy products of a critical condition occurring.  There is way more to this story.  If you want to know more,  pickup a copy of "Body of Burden" by Christen Iversen.  Its well researched and documented. 

What does this have to do with Fukushima?   

The Waste is always the problem and that is not figured into the true cost of nuclear energy when building a reactor.  We know of a few incidents that show how reactors have released contamination but the storage of waste is also a problem. No one will take it because it contains liquids or its in an improper storage state. This means it sets on sites and the public is not informed of the situation.    The half life of these waste products are 24,000 years and up.  It takes 10 time the half life to become somewhat safe or 240,000 thousand years.     

Click to expand...

Harry Reid persists in refusing to obey the law that his own legislature passed to store waste in Nevada. I like the subduction zone Idea but there may be details that need to work out. 

After Rocky Flatts was closed and said to be made safe,  the top layer of dirt, (3 feet) was replaced with new soil that could not exceed 50 pico curries of radioactivity.  In the US average radioactivity is .04 pico curries.  50 is considered to high from many scientist.  But under 3 feet the actually radioactivity can approach 200 pico curries.  Thats the same level 50 years after the test of the 1st atomic bomb blast in the desert in America.    After 10 feet of soil depth, there are no limits set as to the radioactive level.  God knows what that level is.   

Click to expand...

There is also naturally occurring radiation in some dirt (google radon in basements)

There is a much higher incident of cancer from large growth tumors and leukemia in the Denver area and it has one of the highest rate of MS in the country. 

Click to expand...

Denver is also at 5,000' elevation so should have a higher incidence of skin cancer due to less atmosphere filtering sunlight's UV radiation. But it has always been at 5.000 so that wouldn't explain a recent trend, while obesity promotes cancerous growths. IIRC Co was one of least obese state in US.

Some of these figures have taken 30 years to show up after the plant had a plutonium fire burn the roof off a contaminated building in 1957.  Dow Chemical (and later Rockwell International) never announced that a radioactive breach happened during that fire. Independent scientist conducted test after the 1969 fire (that was noticed by the public)  that showed radioactivity in soils and waters in the surrounding areas east the plant.  The reply from Rockwell was this was caused from the 1957 fire not the 1969 recent fire.    Later both firms were sued but the AEC has a Federal Indemnity Protection Law that keeps the public from filing charges against the business that operated the plant  as well as the DOE.   

If you look at your home insurance policy there is an exclusion for radiation contamination no matter what its from.  These Indemnity protection laws were passed after the bomb dropped on Japan and protect the government and companies working for the government from being prosecuted for any harm they may have cause the public. 

I supported the idea of nuclear reactors as an energy source but can no longer go down this path with all the criminal actions of businesses and Federal Agency's looking for profits or weapons production at the expense of the people they are to protect, and with indemnity when they do a terrible job at it.    When it goes out of control,  there is a 250,000 year problem for future generations.  And in most cases the health  problems take up to 30 to identify.

The cost is way greater than the benefit.

Word is they are starting production back up in New Mexico due to the limited safe life span of triggers for bombs we currently have.

70,000 plutonium triggers!!!  WTF is that about if its not about Money.    How many do you need to make  to protect the planet??????

Click to expand...

You are likely to get your wish. Japan, Germany and Europe are pulling back from nuclear power, the US has be incredibly slow moving and unenthusiastic about supporting new nuclear technology.

Public opinion that has always been negative (scared) of nuclear power is unlikely to start supporting it now.

JR

PS; It might be nice to recycle nuclear weapons into fuel for reactors.

JohnRoberts said:

PS; It might be nice to recycle nuclear weapons into fuel for reactors.

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This deserves a sort of drawing that shows the process: nuclear weapon -> nuclear plant -> energy -> turn on da synth

I learned something new today so thought I'd share.

Geo-thermal energy is considered renewable because the heat of the the Earth's core is constantly being replenished (I didn't know that). There is friction heating due to gravity and friction from expansion (as liquid metal turn solid) similar to how ice expands when frozen, but these two mechanisms only explain 10% of the heat generated in the core. 90% is created by radioactive decay. Yup, we have a nuclear fission reaction heating the center of our planet.

So nuclear energy from the sun (fusion) is green, and nuclear energy underground (fission) is green,  but nuclear energy in power plants on the surface is dirty.

I am not trying to make a point, I just find the nuclear reaction down below interesting.

JR

Interesting JR.  I guess now all we need to do is drill 20km to 120km under the crust, and run some pipes to capture the heat (to bring it up to the surface) and we won't need any nuclear plants.  Or just locate them (Nuk Plants)  all under the crust.  There will be a day that drilling that deep will be possible.    What is it now, like 20,000 ft?    Hey I'm fine with this.

Actually geothermal is rather old.. Romans used it.

Drilling for Geothermal is being associated with earthquakes, and ground water contamination (similar to fracking.)

Nothing is simple.

However, if we added insulation we could dramatically reduce heating/cooling costs.

Energy is literally all around us.

JR

JohnRoberts said:

Energy is literally all around us.
JR

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All you need to do is to frak for it!

Not sure this was covered by news channels worldwide, cos usually only "bad" news are news.

After having been bashed by media stations, so-called nuclear experts, all sorts of interest groups and private people all around the globe (including me) for total incompetence regarding anything related to the nuclear reactors in Fukushima -- much along the lines of "those crazy Jap monkeys, they touch those rods, drop one by accident, and the whole world will perish in disaster..." -- well, they actually managed to remove all 1500+ fuel rods (used and unused) in pool no. 4 in November 2014. They have been working on the same plan for pool no. 1 since earlier this year. Pool no. 2 is problematic cos reactor was MOX-fuel loaded but that melted, so radiation is too high there to work on the roof safely, despite protection measures including several layers of thick lead flooring.

Geothermal -- yes, very old technology indeed, but made little use of in Japan, unfortunately. And they wouldn't even have to dig very deep for it. Practically almost the entire country is of volcanic (tectonic) origin, so hot water is coming out of the earth here at so many places -- all by itself -- for free. But what do they do?

At the Sellafield nuclear complex in the north west of the UK, they have been operating a reprocessing plant for years, where spent fuel and other waste is re-cycled - useable fuel is recovered, short half-life waste is separated and true long half-life waste is reduced and vitrified (turned into solid glass billets). They take waste from other power stations in the UK and also some from overseas.

This is old tech. Newer and better stuff is being developed. The long term goal is to be able to convert long half-life waste into short half-life waste by smashing it apart (in a controlled way!) with particle accelerators and the likes.

I feel there is a lot of over-reaction and scare-mongering in the media. Everything on this planet is radioactive. The soil under your feet, the food you eat, and you yourself. The average yearly exposure from naturally occurring background radiation is about 4 milliSieverts. If you live in Cornwall in the UK, you get about 4 times that due to the local geology. If you live in Kerala in India, you get about 70 times that due to the local geology. You get about half that 4 mSv dose extra in one go from a CT scan of your head or 1/10 of it from a mammogram,  1.75x from a chest CT scan, 1/100 of it from flying NY to LA. 1/50 if you lived near to Three Mile Island at and after the incident there. 1/4 of that average yearly exposure extra from being *inside* the Fukushima exclusion zone for 2 weeks, but only the same as the flight from NYC to LA for the folks living in Tokyo after the Fukushima accident. The folks in Cornwall and Kerala are doing just fine.

Matt Nolan said:

I feel there is a lot of over-reaction and scare-mongering in the media. Everything on this planet is radioactive. The soil under your feet, the food you eat, and you yourself. The average yearly exposure from naturally occurring background radiation is about 4 milliSieverts. If you live in Cornwall in the UK, you get about 4 times that due to the local geology. If you live in Kerala in India, you get about 70 times that due to the local geology. You get about half that 4 mSv dose extra in one go from a CT scan of your head or 1/10 of it from a mammogram,  1.75x from a chest CT scan, 1/100 of it from flying NY to LA. 1/50 if you lived near to Three Mile Island at and after the incident there. 1/4 of that average yearly exposure extra from being *inside* the Fukushima exclusion zone for 2 weeks, but only the same as the flight from NYC to LA for the folks living in Tokyo after the Fukushima accident. The folks in Cornwall and Kerala are doing just fine.

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Man! are you joking ???
The natural radiation exposure you give us is for ONE year ...
The radiation measured around the Fukushima at worst moment are in the hundred(even thousand) mSv/h range !!!  mSv per HOURS. Factor is 8760.
I remind you that there still a huge zone (20km more or less) with more than 50mSv/years, people will never come back here, it's a fact, not an over-reaction-scare-mongering  :-X
Zam  :'(

zamproject said:

The natural radiation exposure you give us is for ONE year ...
I remind you that there still a huge zone (20km more or less) with more than 50mSv/years, people will never come back here, it's a fact, not an over-reaction-scare-mongering  :-X
Zam  :'(

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Radiation is pretty unknown because most of it is now entering sea directly, there is very liitle of it exiting into the air. They mostly mention iodine and cesium, haven't find any data about strontium or plutonium, which seem to be the most dangerous polutants in Chernobyl.
It is still uknown where fuel from reactors 1,2,3 is, although it is not hot anymore and probably doesn't move further. But site is floded by 400 tons of ground water from the hill every day, no one knows what are consequences of it, or how to stop this.
I find it interesting how this accident dissapeared from news so fast. What can be found has to be backed up with lots of data from other sources than TEPCO or Japanese government.
Worst thing beside all kinds of leaks from unknown places, is almost impossible mission to remove fuel from spent fuel pools on the top of reactors 1,2,3. Those pools contain more fuel than reactor's 4 pool and are covered with heavy debrees (one has ~35 tons). It still remains inside while
Accident still is and will be at maximum scale value of 7, like Chernobly. Tepco addmits at least 10% of radionucleids escaped compared to Chenrobyl. It is not over and won't be for decades to come. Other incidents show that cancers and other disseases from radiation like heart attacks show after 20 or more years.
I really hope nuclear industry will switch to last generations of reactors. China and India are working hard on thorium and other ciycles/designs with good success, old reactors weren't meant to be run for 40 years or more, beside this more and more problems with old fuel show up. They could easily fix all this and most other problems if it was not used to make plutonium for weapons.