reducing output ripple in commercial switch mode psu

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JAY X

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
683
Hi,

Most smps commercial psu feature ripple voltages in the milivolt range. To reduce it to microvolt range, ¿would it be ok to place a C-R-C output filter at the output rails? . I think it can help... but i'm not sure... Any experience?

Thanks a lot!
JAY X 
 
I have even used a LDO analog regulator after a switching supply to clean up the rail.

It is the nature of switching supplies to have an AC component.

JR
 
John,

I was scratching my head about that... most cheapie LDO's have terrible high frequency PSRR. Most of the SMPS noise is high frequency.

thoughts?
 
Ferrite is your friend, most of the troublesome stuff in SMPSUs is in the hundred KHz and up region extending to some MHz in many cases.

Very few LDOs have much PSRR up there and in fact you will often see switching transients blowing straight thru the things, Series inductance or the sort that has not too much Q (Soft ferrite beads) is the easy fix, som,e common mode chokes can help as well.
I will admit a tendency to shotgun 0603 ferrite all over the shop when doing sensitive analogue on the same board as switched mode power, it seems to help.

Finally, if this is an on board switcher and you have ADC or DAC in play, consider syncronising the switchers to some fraction of the MClk rate just to avoid any chance of mixing products appearing in the audio band.

Regards, Dan.
 
Rochey said:
John,

I was scratching my head about that... most cheapie LDO's have terrible high frequency PSRR. Most of the SMPS noise is high frequency.

thoughts?
Hopefully you have hair to spare.

The output of a switching supply will have a triangle wave or sawtooth waveform depending on load/design. Adding C to output of switcher will only scale down the amplitude of this sawtooth linearly with C not remove it. Switching power supplies can also exhibit much higher frequency noise components in their related to switching edge rates if the PCB layout is poorly executed.

It is quite some time since I did this, and I do not have one working to measure. It was  DSP with several analog and digital rail voltages, plus the design brief wanted it to eventually work from a single battery supply so the switcher design that I inherited was more complicated than needed for the basic task. It was an oddball switcher that provided two regulated output voltages using a single HF transformer instead of a simple one inductor per output.

As I recall my main problem was that this expensive switching transformer also made audible acoustic noise, that was very annoying for a premium audio product.  I was unable to find an obvious design error in the regulator, it made the voltages well enough. Just with the unwanted acoustic noise. My use of switcher and conventional pass regulator was related to my simplification of the switcher design to just use one switched output voltage and then a simple pass regulator to make the second (lower) rail.

I do not have a production board to look at, but the old prototype still back in my lab looks like I used a 317 for the pass regulator. So I misspoke about using a LDO.

Fwiw the switcher was whisper quiet after I converted it to making inly one output voltage with a pass regulator to make the second. Apparently there was something weird about the internal construction of the switching transformer, and how it was used. I did not see multiple sources or alternate options for that transformer.  I was tasked with making somebody else's design work, and I not only made it quiet but cheaper too.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
The output of a switching supply will have a triangle wave or sawtooth waveform depending on load/design. Adding C to output of switcher will only scale down the amplitude of this sawtooth linearly with C not remove it. Switching power supplies can also exhibit much higher frequency noise components in their related to switching edge rates if the PCB layout is poorly executed.

Indeed, and many common cap types become inductive at those high frequencies. :)  A series LC filter can be better for taming high frequency ripple if the inductor has a high enough impedance at the switch frequency (and a low enough R at DC to prevent unwanted loss of DC regulation).

Having mV ripple at 1MHz may not be an issue:  does the original poster have a supply causing audible artifacts that need to be removed?
 
dmills said:
Ferrite is your friend, most of the troublesome stuff in SMPSUs is in the hundred KHz and up region extending to some MHz in many cases.

Very few LDOs have much PSRR up there and in fact you will often see switching transients blowing straight thru the things, Series inductance or the sort that has not too much Q (Soft ferrite beads) is the easy fix, som,e common mode chokes can help as well.
I will admit a tendency to shotgun 0603 ferrite all over the shop when doing sensitive analogue on the same board as switched mode power, it seems to help.

Finally, if this is an on board switcher and you have ADC or DAC in play, consider syncronising the switchers to some fraction of the MClk rate just to avoid any chance of mixing products appearing in the audio band.

Regards, Dan.

Yup I had to deal with a CODEC powered by this rogue switcher and IIRC I had poor results from trying to sync the switcher clock to the DSP/CODEC  clock. The PS chip had sync capability but this only syncs one edge of the switching waveform, the other transition varies with load so still can fall anywhere and step on data. In my bench measurements I did not see or hear any measurable benefit to the noise floor from syncing the PS clock, IIRC it was quieter free running, and keeping the PS layout tight.

I did find a bunch of sensitivity to the CODEC's PCB layout and treatment of analog and digital grounds. A real PIA to tweak after the fact with multi-layer PCB and without multiple trial and error cuts of PCB. If I had the option of a scratch design I would have organized the grounds and layout very differently but I was tasked with making this design work with only minimal changes. 

JR
 
I thought most of the off the shelf switching supplies were meant to be used with a linear regulator, like a LM317 at the output for low ripple. The app notes I've seen say this.
 
As I understand it highest noise is at full load, opposite of linear supplies.  Greatly diminishing noise with lower loads.  Millivolt range with low draws, like phantom power. 

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=54344.msg694157#msg694157
 
Depends, in something like your run of the mill buck converter, duty cycles at low load can become very small, which raises the upper switching harmonic levels considerably.

You can even get shenanigans like various pulse skipping and DCM modes, good for efficiency, all kinds of bad for possibilities of stuff within the GBP of your opamps.

The synchronization thing is not so much about reducing noise as such, what it does is ensure that all the switchers are putting out the same frequencies so that you do not get intermod beat notes due to product detection either just in some non linear junction or by mixing with the delta sigma sample rate. The variable switch off timing does not matter as it only effects the harmonic content as long as all switchers are running at the same rate (so no possibilities for demodulating a low frequency beat note).

Switching converters for audio:
Layout, Layout Layout and did I mention Layout?
Go with forced CCM if your parts support that.
Sync the things to the sample clock or some harmonic of it if doing the AD-DA thing.
Ferrite is your friend, and ground planes are a good thing.
Most LDOs do nothing at the frequencies modern switchers use (There are some exceptions).
Keep the Q of LC filters sane (A resistor across the L is the usual method if you cannot use something inherently lossy).
Synchronous switchers are sometimes better then allowing a diode commutated buck to go into DCM.
Surface mount beads and MLCCs are very useful, lead inductance is the enemy here so use a couple of separate vias for each bypass cap (Less series L) and practically put the cap in the pad (Only really practical with microvia, but you can get close and use a wide connection).
Keep the loop areas small, tightly twisted wire from an off board switcher is much less offensive then some kind of huge loop, and common mode chokes can be used to send the HF crap around the correct loops rather then all over your board.
Finally, make yourself a set of E and H field probes so you can really see what is going on, RF has its little ways......

73 Dan.
 
> As I understand it highest noise is at full load, opposite of linear supplies.

Hmmmmm....

Simple 60Hz iron to rectifier and capacitor-- ripple is zero at no-load and large at full load.

One sign of a guitar-amp which has lost its bias is excess hum/buzz. The usual 30V ripple has gone to 100V ripple under the excess current.

*I* thought switchers ran a constant ripple (but there are many types of switchers which can violate any specific assumption). That for "5.00V" they ramped to 5.05V, fell to 4.95V, and repeat. (Yet this can't be true for all cases....)
 
Dan Mills said:
Depends, in something like your run of the mill buck converter, duty cycles at low load can become very small, which raises the upper switching harmonic levels considerably.

You can even get shenanigans like various pulse skipping and DCM modes, good for efficiency, all kinds of bad for possibilities of stuff within the GBP of your opamps.

The synchronization thing is not so much about reducing noise as such, what it does is ensure that all the switchers are putting out the same frequencies so that you do not get intermod beat notes due to product detection either just in some non linear junction or by mixing with the delta sigma sample rate. The variable switch off timing does not matter as it only effects the harmonic content as long as all switchers are running at the same rate (so no possibilities for demodulating a low frequency beat note).

Switching converters for audio:
Layout, Layout Layout and did I mention Layout?
Go with forced CCM if your parts support that.
Sync the things to the sample clock or some harmonic of it if doing the AD-DA thing.
Ferrite is your friend, and ground planes are a good thing.
Most LDOs do nothing at the frequencies modern switchers use (There are some exceptions).
Keep the Q of LC filters sane (A resistor across the L is the usual method if you cannot use something inherently lossy).
Synchronous switchers are sometimes better then allowing a diode commutated buck to go into DCM.
Surface mount beads and MLCCs are very useful, lead inductance is the enemy here so use a couple of separate vias for each bypass cap (Less series L) and practically put the cap in the pad (Only really practical with microvia, but you can get close and use a wide connection).
Keep the loop areas small, tightly twisted wire from an off board switcher is much less offensive then some kind of huge loop, and common mode chokes can be used to send the HF crap around the correct loops rather then all over your board.
Finally, make yourself a set of E and H field probes so you can really see what is going on, RF has its little ways......

73 Dan.
Ooh. I think I know most of these!

Glossary:

DCM : discontinuous conduction mode. Mode of operation of a switching regulator, where the inductor current is zero for part of the switching cycle.

GBP: gain-bandwidth product. Figure of merit related to an operational amplifier. Literally is, as the name suggests, calculated as the product of the -3 dB (aka half power) bandwidth and the gain at some closed loop gain. The idea is that for a simple model of a normal voltage feedback opamp, this product is independent of closed loop gain.

CCM : continuous conduction mode. As DCM, but where the inductor current is non-zero for the full switching cycle.

LDO : low drop-out. A linear pass regulator with a low minimum voltage across the pass element required to stay in regulation. 'Low' in this context means appreciably less than 3 V and is considered low for purely historical reasons (though history is still happening around here, with the heavy use of ICs like LM337, which is not an LDO. I guess cheap and predictable is never obsolete).

Q of LC filter : the 'quality factor' of a filter comprised of inductance (L) and capacitance (C). The Q indicates how pure the resonance phenomenon of the LC interaction is. It is roughly related to the amount of loss (resistance) in the circuit.

MLCCs : multi-layer ceramic capacitors. The most common type of discrete capacitor in use today. The term covers a wide range of components from the high density types used for supply bypassing (with terrifying names like X7R, Y5V ) to the high grade, very linear low capacitance types for linear filtering and such ( with friendly, cuddly names like C0G and NP0 ).

E-field : electric field. A vector field encoding the potential energy of a hypothetical charged particle of unit charge associated with a unit displacement of said particle in relation to a fixed background charge distribution.
H-field : magnetic field. Phwew have to consult a textbook or Wikipedia for this one... Maybe later.

Well you can't escape jargon, but I hope I have provided some google bait for those who want to learn more.
 
JAY X said:
Hi,

Most smps commercial psu feature ripple voltages in the milivolt range. To reduce it to microvolt range, ¿would it be ok to place a C-R-C output filter at the output rails? . I think it can help... but i'm not sure... Any experience?

Thanks a lot!
JAY X
See attached schemo of the filter I use on my lunchbox.
I designed it to attenuate anything above 100kHz by at least 50 dB.
Inductors are the standard 10mm type.
Indeed, I could not really verify the actual performance since measuring microvolts over a 1MHz+ BW requires specific equipment I don't have access to.
But I have used it to power several different 500 format preamps and even at the highest gain settings I couldn't detect anything dubious.
 

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