Recording drums- crosstalk problem

Pretty new to recording and this is my first post on this forum. I record through a Allen and Heath Mod 3 mixing desk onto Protools.

I've recently started to try and  record a drum kit using 4 mics. Two over head, with a dynamic mic on the bass/kick and a condensor on the snare. The problem is the snare is clearly heard on the mono kick/bass track and the same goes for snare track on which the kick/bass drum can be heard.

In my Yamaha sound reinforcement book, it says you can use a noise gate with the kick used to trigger the gate on the snare. I don't have a noise gate per se, only a rack mount compressor/gate.

Any ideas most welcome. Andy.

There is a nice software for dealing with this, does bit more than a gate, it's called drum atom, look for it, you load your drum tracks, select what is each track and then you have two controls to deal with, it analyze the signals with shouldn't take long for 4 track drum and then you process them, outside of your DAW, then you go back to the DAW and use them as usual. If you want to use a gate a software one on the DAW would be good, use a side chain so you trigger the kick from low freq and snare for higher freq, some lookahead could be nice, specially on the kick, so you don't get away with  the attack.

JS

Hi Andy,

This spill between channels is entirely normal (assuming you are talking about the acoustic spill and not some mixer issue).  I say embrace it and use it to your advantage.

What condenser are you using on the snare?

Thanks chaps.I'll check drum atom out. I,ve got a  What do you mean by lookahead JS?

Yes it's acoustic spill not a mixer issue. I'm using a Teac PE 120 which is a nice mic.

I don't have many mic's and am looking for another decent dynamic mic at present as the Sennheiser I have isn't the best for mic ing the kick drum. It's been really tricky to get a decent sound despite trying different positions, damping and drum head tuning.

When I get the time I'll try using a speaker to mic it. Last time I tried this the signal was very faint which makes me think it could do with a preamp before the channel pre amp. Of course it could be a complete waste of time.

Andy.

DrWobble said:

Pretty new to recording and this is my first post on this forum. I record through a Allen and Heath Mod 3 mixing desk onto Protools.

I've recently started to try and  record a drum kit using 4 mics. Two over head, with a dynamic mic on the bass/kick and a condensor on the snare. The problem is the snare is clearly heard on the mono kick/bass track and the same goes for snare track on which the kick/bass drum can be heard.

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This really shouldn't be a surprise. Look where the mics are positioned, look at how the drums are set up. I mean, I do multitrack (off the mixer) live recordings all the time, and there's leakage everywhere.

In my Yamaha sound reinforcement book, it says you can use a noise gate with the kick used to trigger the gate on the snare. I don't have a noise gate per se, only a rack mount compressor/gate.

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You're using ProTools, so at the mix-down stage instantiate gates on the kick and snare channels if you think the leakage is a problem. Sometimes, though, the cure is worse than the disease, as getting a gated kick to sound correct can be tricky. If the attack is too fast, the gate clicks when opening; if too slow the drum sounds less aggressive. If the release and hold times are too short the natural decay of the drum is cut off and it sounds weird; if they're too long the leakage you don't like is still there. And then there's the issue when the drummer has dynamics; if he starts to play quieter the gate doesn't open as you'd expect (it'll get clicky or it just won't open at all). I suppose you could "solve" the dynamics problem by putting a compressor before the gate, but then that ruins the drummer's intent.

(Toms are a different story. If there's a spot mic on each tom, and they're hit "rarely," just take advantage of the DAW's mute automation capability. Mute the tom tracks, and go through the song, unmuting the channels right before the drum is hit, and mute it again after the decay.)

For live sound, gates are a necessity; sometimes they just help keep the floor tom from ringing forever in sympathy with a note from the bass guitar.

But in recording? I agree: embrace the leakage.

-a

The problem is the snare is clearly heard on the mono kick/bass track and the same goes for snare track on which the kick/bass drum can be heard.

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I would argue that this is *not* a problem.  It's the sound of real drums in a real room.

Two over head, with a dynamic mic on the bass/kick and a condensor on the snare

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I'm not saying a condenser on a snare is a bad idea, but it seems like it might be a bad idea. 

I don't have many mic's and am looking for another decent dynamic mic at present as the Sennheiser

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It would be very hard to go wrong with anything from EV's RE series.  Be careful, the RE-15 prices have become quite inflated in the last year or so.


David

People nowadays tend to forget that drum battery is ONE INSTRUMENT
Just cause it has several elements that we mic separately - it is still one sound.

If you want total separation - use samples.
But samples some consider sterile exactly because they don't have bleed of other elements in them...

DrWobble said:

Thanks chaps.I'll check drum atom out. I,ve got a  What do you mean by lookahead JS?

Yes it's acoustic spill not a mixer issue. I'm using a Teac PE 120 which is a nice mic.

I don't have many mic's and am looking for another decent dynamic mic at present as the Sennheiser I have isn't the best for mic ing the kick drum. It's been really tricky to get a decent sound despite trying different positions, damping and drum head tuning.

When I get the time I'll try using a speaker to mic it. Last time I tried this the signal was very faint which makes me think it could do with a preamp before the channel pre amp. Of course it could be a complete waste of time.

Andy.

Click to expand...

Leakage may be a problem when you have too much hi hat in your snare so you can't make your snare bright enough without having trouble with hi hat, or the kick has too much snare so is difficult to get good HF from the kick to make its attack good enough. Gates can get really tricky, lookahead is a control that
detect the signal before, so it inserts a delay on the signal, when it has to open, the signal that says the gate needs to open is capable to get through it and you listen, because that delay gives the gate enough time to open without clicking, so you have the attack solved, make lookahead 2ms and 2ms attack time and you have a clean, click less and nice attack. For the release is quite more complicated... well, not more complicated but there isn't a recipe as lookahead for the attack, which make us know that is should be right. Too long catch snares, too short is not the same kick anymore, it will sound different, I usually go for let the next hit of the snare leak a bit, it will be covered by the actual snare when it's on the mix.

You should really try drumatom, it really shocked me when I tried, never used in a actual mix since not too long since I know about it and any mixes where it could be useful since then, I did reopened an old mix, which is the only mix the mastering studio returned to me, because of a leaky hi hat on the snare and it did really good job with it, when I did it it was a PIA and ended disappointed with my mix, the hi hat was too open in a part the snare was lower than it should, bad combination, the hi hat ended being louder than snare, with little gate to attenuate the effect, if I used a gate, as I did on the first mix, the hi hat was shouting with the snare hits, so it was awful, I thought it will be just fine but it wasn't, I ended with a weak snare for the intro and bridges of the song. I tried this soft and it did a really nice job, too bad I didn't know about it when I did that mix. Most probably there are some other softs doing something like this one out there, I don't know others, but let me know if you find something.

JS

Thanks for all your input. As I said I'm relatively new to recording so knowing what is normal is tricky as I havn't much experience with recording drums.To be honest I was partially going on various Utube videos where their kick drum track is just a kick drum etc.

Thanks for the heads up on the Electro Voice mic. I'm going to have to save up and get some decent mics.

Andy.

BTW, the most effective tool to minimize leakage isn't fancy gates or software.  It's microphones & microphone position.

If you are new to recording, its time you started to learn about this vital subject.  The best way to learn?  Just have a go and experiment with what you've got.  And take any hints from 'experts' with a pinch of salt.  If it sounds right to you, it IS right.

As Ricardo said - "microphones & microphone position" - this is the basis!
For example superniere md441 is my favorite mike for snare but the most important is the placement of it.
In my opinion gates are good for live situation, but for recording/mixing, expanders are much better, especially if you don't wont to lose the natural sound of drums. For example cheap Symetrix 511a is good choice for drums.
Very useful in DAW is possibility of tracks time-aligning (phase correction) option!
I've tried once drum atom, but the tracks were lifeless after...

DrWobble said:

I don't have many mic's and am looking for another decent dynamic mic

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Try to get hold of a Samson Q-kick. Amazing value. Sold for $38. It holds up against a Beta52 or a D112.
Unfortunately it's not available on its own, only as part of a kit. The other mics in the kit are only decent, but since you don't have many mics, you could find proper use for them.

jstark said:

Two over head, with a dynamic mic on the bass/kick and a condensor on the snare

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I'm not saying a condenser on a snare is a bad idea, but it seems like it might be a bad idea. 

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Actually, it's a really GOOD idea, if you have a mic that can stand the SPL. Seriously.

(Having said that, the best snare mic is the Beyer M201TG.)

There is really no need to get rid of the spill!!!
The most important thing is to have the least possible hihat spill on the snare mike. The Bassdrum rarely is a problem if the drummer is good. You can gate / reduce spill in the tom mics in your daw manually. Please only use gates for their sound, not for noise reduction.

(Having said that, the best snare mic is the Beyer M201TG.)

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I compared my M201 with a SM7 and a C451 (which is a condensor) and they were all awesome - different, but awesome.
Also for the kick, a RE20 or D12e - very different, but again both awesome.
Overheads done well make a huge difference in getting drums that sound like they are being played in a real room.

But most importantly, get the sound in the room right before trying to get it with mics. Good drums, healthy heads, properly tuned.

dmp said:

(Having said that, the best snare mic is the Beyer M201TG.)

Click to expand...

I compared my M201 with a SM7 and a C451 (which is a condensor) and they were all awesome - different, but awesome.
Also for the kick, a RE20 or D12e - very different, but again both awesome.
Overheads done well make a huge difference in getting drums that sound like they are being played in a real room.

But most importantly, get the sound in the room right before trying to get it with mics. Good drums, healthy heads, properly tuned.

Click to expand...

amen...

GIGO so yes tune em.

JR

The most basic question here: what kind of music do you record and what kind of drum do you need.

A very elegant and natural jazz drum might sound "slightly" different from an electronic dance drum, and accordingly, the techniques used to achieve those sounds are quite different.

In between, over the course of roughly one century of recorded music, there have been a s*load of techniques, including type, number, and position of mics used, signal chain, recording support, final media etc etc.

Keep in mind that a rather modern rock drum sound (say, in the last 30-40 years of recording) however "natural" people say it sounds, it's a heavily modified result, as a real drum in a real room doesn't really sound as anything on a rock record since the 70s or more - if they wanted natural they'd put two good mics in the room and that's all.

If, as you mention, your problem is spillage, since the signal path of a full blown recording is pretty long, you can step in in a very different number of places, and all of those have pros and cons, depending on the question above (what kind of drum sound you're looking for in the end). Sometimes spill is great, sometimes it won't allow you to eq one of your drums excitingly. -so you can go with:
- mic positioning (very effective! hint: cardioids reject at the back)
- track eq (for instance: cutting out low kick spill or focusing OHs)
- noise gate (singling out toms or snare hits)
- single track editing (if you get good at it, is faster than it seems and it's very effective)
- track resampling (it can be done with various degrees of intervention, from very subtle to really drastic)

then there's advanced tricks where you put together some of these like sidechaining an eq'd signal to a multiband gate. If done correctly, these can be really funny and rewarding to do - brainworx have some plugins out that do just that amazingly.

So again: what you're looking for for the final sound?

oh and of course, a very good drummer with a very good touch on a very well tuned drum will make a HUGE difference...

Andy,
you had really good and professional advises in this thread, some of the advises people gave here are conclusions and solutions they found after many years of recording and engineering, so this is a really good place to learn.
Read what everyone told and try to understand it.

Like everyone said, spillage is completely normal, you cant get rid of it but theres ways of minimizing it.

in recording:
SNARE - if you want less spillage, don't use a condenser mic, condenser mics are more sensitive so they will pickup more of the less SPL sounds. Use a Dynamic mic not far from the Snare , SM57 is cheap enough and there's at least 2 or 3 people using it in the world  and say its good. Also Condenser mics are more sensitive to high frequencies so that means more cymbals on the kick and snare. And another reason to use a dynamic on the snare is that dynamic mics due to its nature compress the sounds, and that is normally nice on the snare and kick tracks, but you have to try it yourself to understand what it does.
I only use a Condenser mic on the snare when recording Jazz, I like the sound of brushes on the snare with a condenser, and its also nice to have it for the less dynamic parts, even then I pair it with a dynamic mics so I will have 2 tracks of the top of the snare.
Understand polar patters, if you want less spillage you will want a directional mic, the polar patters will be Cardioid or super-cardioid/hypercardiod, the last ones will be more directional (means reject more sounds from the side) but will pickup a bit more sounds from the tail, cardioid dont. This is a problem if the back of the Mic is pointed to the Hi Hat.
Normally in the Snare mic , spillage from kick is rarely a problem, but hi hat spillage is almost always a problem, because the Fu***in Hat gets into all the mics and rarely in a good way.
If you have too much spillage from Hi Hat in the snare mic:
-move the hi hat away or higher from the snare mic as much as you can without upsetting the drummers comfortable position to play the kit
-position the dynamic mic so that the tail of the mic is pointing to the Hi Hat (if you're using a cardioid mic)
-use a plastic bottle cutted in half around the dynamic mic on the snare covered with some damping material to tame the high end down
-ask for the Drummer to play more hard on the Snare, toms and Kick and more softly on the cymbals, Pros do it easily or naturaly other will not be able
In the end you will still have leakage from the Hat, Cymbals and Kick and you have to live with it

Kick
If you want less spillage from SN and cymbals in the kick, use also a dynamic mic and:
-use the mic close to the Skin
-if the skin has a hole put half the mic inside the hole
-try the mic inside the kick drum (you will have more click from the beater and less low end (not a favorite of mine but less spillage you have)
-Cover the front of the Kick drum and Mic with foam,Duvet, or even build a tunnel in front of the kick so that you damp the other sound reaching the mic


After recording you can also tame spillage with any method or combination of great methods that were advised in this thread,
you can also use in Protools the "Strip Silence" tool, its an applied to waveform gate

If then you are still not satisfied, use Drumagog or Sound Replacer and replace the snare and Kick with clean samples, and try to use the overheads to glue the kick and snare samples, but by then you were better if you programed a beat and not recorded the drums

Im going to try "drumatom" now, didn't know about that, very good Tip.
Thanks JS

Regards

Tiago

As mentioned before, that pice of soft is to be carefull with, it may ruin your day, and as it's not in the DAW once you done it it's at least hard to do it again to correct something wich doesn't fit, and also impossible to compare in the mix for the same reason. I would use it only when needed, for example the mix I mentioned wich was spoiled completly because of hihat lekage on snare, or in some not so criticall case as very subtle effect and then deal with it inside the daw with usual methodes, wich would be easier with bit cleaning before. I've recorded a drummer who has the opposite case from most, the cymbals on OH got lower than toms and snare, I realize this in a good moment, after a few test takes and I put the OH between the cymbals, really close to them, a bit of low end cut to get more natural cymbal sound and working right away, really good to work like this, then I had a couple of mics in the room a couple of meters away to get the ambient, since OH won't work as OH but more as cymbal mics. No leakage problem with this guy, some snare everywhere but ahw, not a problem, cut the toms by hand as usual and it was rocking on!

JS