Need some advice from the community

Hello guys,

I'm looking for some advice on something that came up today.

Earlier this morning, I received my first ever hate mail:

Everyone knows API stopped making the good DOA's, and it's cool that guys
like Gar and Liebers stepped up and designed replacements, and filled that
void. Doesn't it bother ur conscience that you're absolutely knowingly,
ripping off the name red and blue 2520s from Liebers? U know ur taking
advantage of the recognition he's fostered with his hard work, and it's not
at all cool. If u named them something else, I'd have probably bought some
from u, but I can't now because I don't support lowlife bs. Really lame,
shame on u

Click to expand...

This gentleman seems to be accusing me of knowingly "taking advantage of the recognition" of the Scott Liebers op-amps.  He feels that the 'RED' and 'BLU' are too reminiscent of the red and blue dot op-amps that Scott sells.

To be clear, that was a total coincidence.  I have not even thought about the SL op-amps names when I was working on the RED-25 and BLU-18.  However, I can see his point and this is the reason for this thread.

What does the community here think about this?  Do you feel the same as him?  What do you think I should do?:

- Change the name of the RED-25 and BLU-18?
- Stop selling the op-amps?
- Ignore the criticism?

GroupDIY is the only forum which I advertise my op-amps on.  In fact, my customer base is almost only members and visitors of this forum.  I value the opinion of the community here more than that of any other.

Help me make this right.

Thanks,

Mike

Hi Mike

Seems OK to me as colours are colours
(almost named mine Green2520 and Black1731 after
the PCB colours ) )

BUT...  Shoot Scott an Email and ask him what he thinks.

Nothing wrong with your fine products Mike.  Never thought
you ever ripped off anybody.

Best

GARY

I think it is a storm in a tea cup. Both you and Scott have built on the original 2520 design to offer your own unique versions. it is like Samsung whinging at Toshiba for bringing out a TV with the same chip set.

Back in 1980 I designed the Dragon 32 home computer. It's schematic bore an uncanny resemblance to that of the Tandy Color Computer or 'CoCo' as it was known but the reason was simple. We both based it on the same Motorola application note for their memory controller chip called the SAM (synchronous address multiplexer). We made numerous changes and improvements. The printer port was changed from serial to parallel;  we re-wrote the I/O subsystem to increase speed; we created PAL, SECAM and RGB variants; 16K,32K and 64K memory variants; we added an external disk drive and so on.

So, although we started from the same point, the results of our efforts were quite distinct. Seems to me you have done the same thing. I would ignore him.

Cheers

Ian

Thanks, guys!

Gary: I will definitely shoot an email out to Scott.  The idea behind the 'RED' and 'BLU' are in fact based on the PCB colour!   I was thinking of an easy way to distinguish between the two.  Also, the colours fit the tonality of each op-amp. 

My concern is really with how this is perceived here.  I don't want to step on any toes.

Ian: Thanks.  We all know the starting point for most/all 2520 clones out there is the great work that Peter Purpose did a while back.  Like you said, different hands have taken it and shaped it into their own thing.

Cheers,

Mike

Let's look past the colors to the Claims:

Scott Liebers SL-2520
vintage or “red dot” .. opamps from the 70’s
clean, or “blue dot” version, ...like the newer 2520 opamps.


Whistle Rock Audio
RED-25 is an API-2520 clone
BLU-18 is ...based on the Jensen 918


Now.... isn't a 2520 a VERY different beast from a 918?

Yeah, they may fall in the same holes and play the same tunes; but aren't they different parentage and legacy? And perhaps sound different at the extremes?

And.... one is "dot" and the other is the whole darn PCB.

I think this person calling you "lowlife bs" has done a shamefully lame study of op-amp products.

Colors are not good ID. I have a low-price blood-pressure med which is the same color pills as one of those prescription pain-meds they sell in the park. I could try to pass them off as "the good stuff". An aware buyer would notice the size, shape, and stampings are different. With an unaware buyer, _I_ would be lame, after they broke my kneecaps.

Don't get me started about the color codes on thermostat wires. There's some convergence now, but history has sported dozens of variations so a retro-fit is a puzzle.

I think you should talk to Scott, and be sure he does not feel transgressed. It appears you two started from very different paths and (because there's only so many colors) arrived at same colors for different products. I don't know that either of you could change now; may have to rely on the 98% of buyers who can read a description. (But it does suggest doing a broad market survey before naming or painting your next creation.)

I'm confused... so was it both you and Scott that ripped off your color code idea from Thiersch, or did he steal from one of you guys? ???

Seriously I wouldn't worry about it. Sounds like this guy is probably angry about something else and is trying to vent on whatever petty thing he can find to distract himself from his real issues.

Thanks guys.  I won't worry too much about it. 

The web seems to be littered with trolls.  In any case he needs to check his facts and learn how to spell.

You make good stuff Mike, I've got your Red and Blue opamps, as well as a USB DAC.... thumbs up for all three.

I don't support lowlife bs. Really lame,
shame on u

Click to expand...

You won't want to reply to mails from people addressing you in this manner.

Gustav

Mike and I have discussed the matter.  I'm fine with it, and really appreciate him checking with me.
It's funny, the whole naming of my opamps came about from red and blue nail polish that my wife had.  I needed a way to distinguish the two as I built them.  The differing components are not marked, so I needed a way to tell them apart at a glance.  Over time, they became known as red dots and blue dots to my customers.  A little bit of unintentional marketing that worked.

Hey, that was me  :-\, i have a tendency to rabidly defend the guys from around here on the net, especially since the Yannick incident, it struck me as more than a coincidence that 2520 op amps got listed as Red/Blue as they do not pertain to the original API, and we all know Scott came up with Red dot/Blue dot, and made them  household names for audio geeks like myself, but if SL is cool with it, i respect that, nothing personal Mike, i would have done the same if i felt i saw you being ridden , anyone who knows me, knows thats the truth.
  I value this place, and the opportunities you have all given us with your skills and unselfish hard work in finding ways around gear extinction. To be  part of this and afforded the ability to build gear that would otherwise be simply out of reach, is totally worth protecting.

Lesson learned, next time i will notify the person i (rightly or wrongly)interpret as being victimized and let it simmer before i  unhook the leash and let my fierce loyalty get the best of me or anyone else.

Mea Culpa to anyone i may have offended
Much respect to all GDIY members

ruffrecords said:

Back in 1980 I designed the Dragon 32 home computer.

Click to expand...

OK, now that's fucking cool!

-a

Hi Tony,

Please don't worry about it.  I appreciate your PM and your post here.
I should have been more careful with my naming scheme and if anything, your email pointed out a potential problem that I was able to address right away.

I'm glad this is all sorted out.  No hard feelings here. 

Cheers,

Mike

tonycamp said:

Hey, that was me  :-\, i have a tendency to rabidly defend the guys from around here on the net, especially since the Yannick incident, it struck me as more than a coincidence that 2520 op amps got listed as Red/Blue as they do not pertain to the original API, and we all know Scott came up with Red dot/Blue dot, and made them  household names for audio geeks like myself, but if SL is cool with it, i respect that, nothing personal Mike, i would have done the same if i felt i saw you being ridden , anyone who knows me, knows thats the truth.
  I value this place, and the opportunities you have all given us with your skills and unselfish hard work in finding ways around gear extinction. To be  part of this and afforded the ability to build gear that would otherwise be simply out of reach, is totally worth protecting.

Lesson learned, next time i will notify the person i (rightly or wrongly)interpret as being victimized and let it simmer before i  unhook the leash and let my fierce loyalty get the best of me or anyone else.

Mea Culpa to anyone i may have offended
Much respect to all GDIY members

Click to expand...

Sounds like someone who wants to gain favor with scott!
I bought some from you, but at some point later you sent me the newest version
because you didn't feel it was right to sell the ones you weren't happy with, so
you seem to be a person of integrity and it's not scott's design [ I'm sure He's a good guy doing o.k. ]
free market , if you have the balls to compete, you're a better man than I!

Having read the attacks and accusations followed by sensible advice, sincere apologies and forgiveness, it occurs to me world leaders should be invited to join Group diy.They could sort out differences with a soldering iron.

Trouble is what would they be making at home?