micaddict
Well-known member
OK, if you insist, I will give it a try.
You have my address. ;D
Microphone Test Sessions
- Thread starter chunger
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
OK, if you insist, I will give it a try.
You have my address. ;D
kcatthedog
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Tim Campbell said:Then I guess you wouldn't be interested in this one either.
Dude; your're killin us here:stop ! ok maybe just one more ?
Tim Campbell
Well-known member
Tim Campbell
Well-known member
When I have time and something's interesting enough.
Thank you for your test session, Chunger!
I can’t buy every capsule or microphone in the market or build every microphone kit in order to form my own opinion. I don’t have access to an original U47 or a selection of original C12s. And even if I did, I wound be listening to a 60 year old microphone that does not sound the same now as it did 60 years ago when the recordings of Sinatra or the Beatles (or anyone else) was made.
People who publish sound clips of someone playing his guitar in his bedroom don’t help very much.
Good sound clips made in a professional studio does help me, as a DIY builder, a lot.
I know that sound clips are not the absolute truth. I don’t have to read Chungers comments, and if I do, I don’t have to agree with him. I know that the amount of bottom end depends on how close you are to the microphone. That’s not important to me. I learn more from listening to the middle range and the treble.
About the Beesneez capsule: I have bought two CK 12 capsules from Beesneez. There are not broken, but they sound a bit dark to me. They have a dip of 6-7 dB around 4K. That’s how they are tuned. Some people like that sound. I hear the same kind of sound in Chungers session and in some YouTube clips with the Arabella microphone. If I had heard a good sound clip of Bens CK 12s before I ordered them I would have been a better informed customer. But, Ben, like most other capsule manufacturers, does not want to publish sound clips or any data about his capsules or microphones. “Buy first, and then you can listen” (Ben, please feel free to respond to this).
Chungers sound clip confirm to me that my Beesneez capsules are ok, and that the sound is a result of how Ben like to tune his capsules.
Please, Chunger and the rest of you who have access to a good sounding room and a good performer, give me more comparative sound clips! I have good monitors, good headphones and good ears and I can form my own opinion of what I like and what I don’t like.
And last but not least, I really hope that Chunger and all the rest of you people that help us DIY-builders get at least a little bit of financial rewards for all your work! If it were not for you, it would not be possible for me to build any of these great microphones.
- Stefan
I can’t buy every capsule or microphone in the market or build every microphone kit in order to form my own opinion. I don’t have access to an original U47 or a selection of original C12s. And even if I did, I wound be listening to a 60 year old microphone that does not sound the same now as it did 60 years ago when the recordings of Sinatra or the Beatles (or anyone else) was made.
People who publish sound clips of someone playing his guitar in his bedroom don’t help very much.
Good sound clips made in a professional studio does help me, as a DIY builder, a lot.
I know that sound clips are not the absolute truth. I don’t have to read Chungers comments, and if I do, I don’t have to agree with him. I know that the amount of bottom end depends on how close you are to the microphone. That’s not important to me. I learn more from listening to the middle range and the treble.
About the Beesneez capsule: I have bought two CK 12 capsules from Beesneez. There are not broken, but they sound a bit dark to me. They have a dip of 6-7 dB around 4K. That’s how they are tuned. Some people like that sound. I hear the same kind of sound in Chungers session and in some YouTube clips with the Arabella microphone. If I had heard a good sound clip of Bens CK 12s before I ordered them I would have been a better informed customer. But, Ben, like most other capsule manufacturers, does not want to publish sound clips or any data about his capsules or microphones. “Buy first, and then you can listen” (Ben, please feel free to respond to this).
Chungers sound clip confirm to me that my Beesneez capsules are ok, and that the sound is a result of how Ben like to tune his capsules.
Please, Chunger and the rest of you who have access to a good sounding room and a good performer, give me more comparative sound clips! I have good monitors, good headphones and good ears and I can form my own opinion of what I like and what I don’t like.
And last but not least, I really hope that Chunger and all the rest of you people that help us DIY-builders get at least a little bit of financial rewards for all your work! If it were not for you, it would not be possible for me to build any of these great microphones.
- Stefan
kcatthedog
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"
"and I can form my own opinion of what I like and what I don’t like."
^^this^^
Exactly !
"and I can form my own opinion of what I like and what I don’t like."
^^this^^
Exactly !
micaddict
Well-known member
I already said something of the sort, earlier in this thread, but in an attempt to get this thread back on track, I wanted to repeat my words in a more elaborate way. Now I see Stefan took care of that one nicely. I don't have much to add to that.
Well, maybe a word to Tim.
Tim, you worry too much, my friend. You make a fantastic capsule and people, including the pros, are standing in a long queue, hoping to buy one. I'd have a big smile on my face, all day, every day.
OK, by that logic you could argue you have a lot to lose. Yup, that's the downside of success.
I'd just relax and let the folks play with the things. In the end, quality will always rise to the surface. Well, that has actually been proven many times already. Or you wouldn't have been where you are now.
BTW , I did appreciate the way you came to Ben's defense, too.
Henk
I don't have much to add to that.Well, maybe a word to Tim.
Tim, you worry too much, my friend. You make a fantastic capsule and people, including the pros, are standing in a long queue, hoping to buy one. I'd have a big smile on my face, all day, every day.
OK, by that logic you could argue you have a lot to lose. Yup, that's the downside of success.
I'd just relax and let the folks play with the things. In the end, quality will always rise to the surface. Well, that has actually been proven many times already. Or you wouldn't have been where you are now.
BTW , I did appreciate the way you came to Ben's defense, too.
Henk
Tim Campbell
Well-known member
I don't really want to comment more on this. I have no axe to grind here.
I truly like all the people involved in this.
What is it this thread is doing? It's selling capsules.
It isn't comparing Chunger's work to other kit manufacturers.
Chunger openly admits to work closley with one of these capsule builders and even earn money (though a small amount) on one their products. As far as I know only that capsule builder is actively involved in any back and forth tweaking that might influence these sound files. My point is that if I and others are to be judged by this audio then I want to do all I can to make people aware of my perception of the circumstance and make it known that I don't feel that the sound files presented here are truly representative of my work. The capsule used here isn't the same as my current generation CT12 and I have always been glad to adjust my capsule to suit customers tastes. I believe Ben or Thiersch would gladly do the same.
Where are the sound files of a real U47 or real C12?
I apologize for going on about this.
How about more mic pics.
I truly like all the people involved in this.
What is it this thread is doing? It's selling capsules.
It isn't comparing Chunger's work to other kit manufacturers.
Chunger openly admits to work closley with one of these capsule builders and even earn money (though a small amount) on one their products. As far as I know only that capsule builder is actively involved in any back and forth tweaking that might influence these sound files. My point is that if I and others are to be judged by this audio then I want to do all I can to make people aware of my perception of the circumstance and make it known that I don't feel that the sound files presented here are truly representative of my work. The capsule used here isn't the same as my current generation CT12 and I have always been glad to adjust my capsule to suit customers tastes. I believe Ben or Thiersch would gladly do the same.
Where are the sound files of a real U47 or real C12?
I apologize for going on about this.
How about more mic pics.
kcatthedog
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- Aug 13, 2013
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I would hope we would all agree that all mike's in their way act as /like eq, so the thing about our little transatlantic discussion is that , if we note differences in the "voice' of the mike, then how are people using that effectively; what is it best application ?
darker and lighter are not categorically negative comments but observations
I have lots to learn still about recording but I find my interest in the diy quality mikes is grounded in the get it right at source idea
If one designer tunes their cap one way or the other, this is just useful information, but we can easily get down into the sonic semantics ; like which is better the 2192 or b2 ADC ;
there are after all:
"Many different flavors and
This spice is strong
Get into the hot stuff"
Let me pour a little song !"
darker and lighter are not categorically negative comments but observations
I have lots to learn still about recording but I find my interest in the diy quality mikes is grounded in the get it right at source idea
If one designer tunes their cap one way or the other, this is just useful information, but we can easily get down into the sonic semantics ; like which is better the 2192 or b2 ADC ;
there are after all:
"Many different flavors and
This spice is strong
Get into the hot stuff"
Let me pour a little song !"
Melodeath00
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- Jun 7, 2012
- Messages
- 416
Tim Campbell said:
Hi Tim,
Care to elaborate on how the CT12 has changed?
I have kept quit on this thread mainly because I don't feel strongly about the subject, but a few comments made me think about a few things,
Tim, I respect you and to be very frank I wouldn't be doing what I have done if it wasn't for you and the work you have done, thanks! That being said I find your reaction to these kind of threads a bit overly defensive. You asked earlier, why aren't there more comparisons to original c12 or u47? I can answer that very easily! I like most have only seen one c12 let alone have taken one apart or recorded with, I have never seen a real u47!
So guess what, us lowly diy guys try to build the best recreation! In that world it is your capsule that we compare against because they exist!!!! I hope that helps you understand that when the diy community leans on you and your capsule. It's only because we have no other option. And just like me regardless of the sources intention, when you put a product out to sell you tacitly agree to any public critique! Good or bad!
And sadly you loose control. That's life in the free market place...
Tim, I respect you and to be very frank I wouldn't be doing what I have done if it wasn't for you and the work you have done, thanks! That being said I find your reaction to these kind of threads a bit overly defensive. You asked earlier, why aren't there more comparisons to original c12 or u47? I can answer that very easily! I like most have only seen one c12 let alone have taken one apart or recorded with, I have never seen a real u47!
So guess what, us lowly diy guys try to build the best recreation! In that world it is your capsule that we compare against because they exist!!!! I hope that helps you understand that when the diy community leans on you and your capsule. It's only because we have no other option. And just like me regardless of the sources intention, when you put a product out to sell you tacitly agree to any public critique! Good or bad!
And sadly you loose control. That's life in the free market place...
ruairioflaherty
Well-known member
I agree 100% with Tim about the tests but let's put aside ethical considerations for a moment. IMO making decisions about what to buy or not based on these kinds of tests is very misguided.
There is nothing to replace hands on experience with a given part of piece of gear, nothing. I'll challenge you to find me anyone who's been in the design/recording/mixing/mastering game for a significant amount of time that believes otherwise. There's no need to list all of the ways in which these types of tests are flawed.
Over and over I see calls for sound files from beginners, and they go on to make purchasing decisions based on these tests. "But I live in a place where I can't hear this stuff!!" I hear you say. Well so did I for many years. I once rented a U47 from London at my expense to record a great singer I was working with, and was able to compare it in my room on several singers with a Soundeluxe E47 and many other mics. I bought used and sold again if I didn't like. I borrow and swap gear all of the time from friends and fellow engineers - this week it was a Weiss DS1 to compare to my Maselec, sound files will tell you nothing about how these units sound and how they match your workflow.
Recently I was curious to see how the Shadow SB4000 sounded. I bought one ready made for $500, listened for a few months and sold for $500. I also wanted to see how the BSS DPR901 was put together for a dynamic EQ I'm working on, bought one for $600 and will sell again soon for much the same, maybe I'll take a $100 hit for a quick sale, money well spent.
If you really want to learn about the various capsules, build a mic and buy and resell a few of the options before settling on one you like. Anything else is fooling yourself.
There is nothing to replace hands on experience with a given part of piece of gear, nothing. I'll challenge you to find me anyone who's been in the design/recording/mixing/mastering game for a significant amount of time that believes otherwise. There's no need to list all of the ways in which these types of tests are flawed.
Over and over I see calls for sound files from beginners, and they go on to make purchasing decisions based on these tests. "But I live in a place where I can't hear this stuff!!" I hear you say. Well so did I for many years. I once rented a U47 from London at my expense to record a great singer I was working with, and was able to compare it in my room on several singers with a Soundeluxe E47 and many other mics. I bought used and sold again if I didn't like. I borrow and swap gear all of the time from friends and fellow engineers - this week it was a Weiss DS1 to compare to my Maselec, sound files will tell you nothing about how these units sound and how they match your workflow.
Recently I was curious to see how the Shadow SB4000 sounded. I bought one ready made for $500, listened for a few months and sold for $500. I also wanted to see how the BSS DPR901 was put together for a dynamic EQ I'm working on, bought one for $600 and will sell again soon for much the same, maybe I'll take a $100 hit for a quick sale, money well spent.
If you really want to learn about the various capsules, build a mic and buy and resell a few of the options before settling on one you like. Anything else is fooling yourself.
MicGeek
Active member
I think most of us are competent enough to realize that these clips only tell the story of that particular mic body, with that particular capsule on that particular day in that particular room with that particular vocal performance, etc. What it does accomplish is giving us DIYers the opportunity to hear each others' work and give us an idea of what to expect if we were to consider trying any of those components in our own builds. For most of us, buying every capsule just to try them is not practical, so these clips lend an IDEA of what they may sound like in our own mics. It's not a competition because we all have unique tastes!
What we need is MORE of these clips from more people in more places with more artist, capsules/bodies, etc, not to draw final conclusions, but to get more info on which tools we may subjectively prefer without having to spend months of time and tons of money on gear that are clearly not in our ballpark. To infer that there is NO merit to this is just as ridiculous as inferring that a purchase should me made solely on one test.
So, my my personal opinion from my own mic locker:
The Beesneez M7 is dark, yes, but takes EQ and processing like a champ and sounds fantastic for my voice and many male vocalists that I've tried. Thick with lots of beef. For me, on my voice, in my room, with my pre's, yadda yadda, I think it's beautiful. (my own clips sound better to me than Chunger's - case in point).
I also have mics with the BN CK12 and again, a bit dark, but I can tweak the heck out of them without getting sibilance. The low end is gorgeous. They also sound fantastic on my grand piano, just the sound I was looking for.
I've got an HK12 ready to go into my recently ordered C12 kit from Chunger. Eric sent me clips with his own mic and they sounded really nice. I will try my BN CK12 in that as well. (Tim, I would love to try yours, but I've sent so many requests to you over many months and never heard back. Please consider my persistence a compliment.) I have a feeling that I will also really like the HK12, and most likely keep it in the new build!
Just as Eric prudently pointed out, the public is going to critique everyone's work no matter what. Manufacturers can either embrace this or ignore it. Either way, it can't be stopped.
This is not a competition to exclude anyone's work from the market. All of these guys make great products and strive for customer satisfaction. I would LOVE to see all of the capsule makers join in on this. Show us what your ideal sound is from your mics/caps! If manufacturers are too insecure to do so, then stop making them and the problem is solved. Obviously, your clips will be no more reliable than any of ours.
Let's all post our clips and make this a FUN process, not an adversarial one.
What we need is MORE of these clips from more people in more places with more artist, capsules/bodies, etc, not to draw final conclusions, but to get more info on which tools we may subjectively prefer without having to spend months of time and tons of money on gear that are clearly not in our ballpark. To infer that there is NO merit to this is just as ridiculous as inferring that a purchase should me made solely on one test.
So, my my personal opinion from my own mic locker:
The Beesneez M7 is dark, yes, but takes EQ and processing like a champ and sounds fantastic for my voice and many male vocalists that I've tried. Thick with lots of beef. For me, on my voice, in my room, with my pre's, yadda yadda, I think it's beautiful. (my own clips sound better to me than Chunger's - case in point).
I also have mics with the BN CK12 and again, a bit dark, but I can tweak the heck out of them without getting sibilance. The low end is gorgeous. They also sound fantastic on my grand piano, just the sound I was looking for.
I've got an HK12 ready to go into my recently ordered C12 kit from Chunger. Eric sent me clips with his own mic and they sounded really nice. I will try my BN CK12 in that as well. (Tim, I would love to try yours, but I've sent so many requests to you over many months and never heard back. Please consider my persistence a compliment.) I have a feeling that I will also really like the HK12, and most likely keep it in the new build!
Just as Eric prudently pointed out, the public is going to critique everyone's work no matter what. Manufacturers can either embrace this or ignore it. Either way, it can't be stopped.
This is not a competition to exclude anyone's work from the market. All of these guys make great products and strive for customer satisfaction. I would LOVE to see all of the capsule makers join in on this. Show us what your ideal sound is from your mics/caps! If manufacturers are too insecure to do so, then stop making them and the problem is solved. Obviously, your clips will be no more reliable than any of ours.
Let's all post our clips and make this a FUN process, not an adversarial one.
Tim Campbell
Well-known member
I don't know how I'm being so misunderstood here. I have tried to be as clear as possible. People post files of my work all the time even on this forum without drawing any reaction from me. I can easily take criticism as well as most and defend my work.
My aversion to this or other manufacturers posting sound files of my work is their motivation. The are only using me to sell their work -" Buy mine, it's as good as Tim Campbell's". Trying to garner respectability at the expense of mine. I cannot help but view this thread as camouflaged advertisement.
There are a few thousand capsules of mine in the world. I have been selling them now for seven years. People have posted sound files, frequency charts and every other manner of measurement of my work. AA Microphones and Telefunken have both used comparative frequency charts of their capsules beside mine in order to convince people of the superiority of their work.
Should I post audio files of other's work to sell my own? I don't believe so.
I like capsules and I like people that share my passion and so I try to treat them that way.
What is it we are attempting to build here? CK12 capsules, not copies of Tim Campbell's capsules. If you can't post files of AKG or Neumann's work than you aren't informing anyone of anything.
There are still great numbers of these capsule available. I know because I go to great expense all the time to own them.
Melodeath00 asked what changes I have made to my CT12. I have posted pictures and descriptions of the changes in other threads. Suffice´it to say that I am constantly trying to improve and refine my work. After Chunger purchased this capsule I ran across a brilliant sounding CK12 and began using this as my current benchmark.
As I stated before I like everyone here . I hope this makes my position a bit easier to understand.
kidvybes
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- Dec 6, 2011
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Tim Campbell said:
...so how does that reflect upon all the capsules you produced prior to this particular benchmark update?...seems a bit disconcerting...considering your lengthy lead times, one has to wonder if the last reference file heard, prior to placing an order, reflects the current benchmark voicing...it might be more constructive to offer multiple voicing choices to avoid this sort of episode...
...Tim, I'm not sure your continued posts are contributing to your best interests in this discussion...might have been better to take Ben's posture...
ruairioflaherty
Well-known member
kidvybes said:
Buying a capsule on the basis of some internet sound file is a very bad idea.
Tim Campbell
Well-known member
I have always offered adjusting capsule to suit customer's preference.
I am happy to continue to decide for myself what is in my best interests.
kidvybes
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ruairioflaherty said:
...then, how about the files I hear from the 5-6 talented and capable associates of mine that own mics with Tim's capsule?...bad idea too?
...or better yet, borrowing one of their mics with an earlier tuning of said capsule?...what then qualifies as an accurate representation upon which I can confidently make the decision to purchase a capsule?...an honest question...
...I, as you yourself posted, often purchase products outright, in order to vet them in my own studio environment...I can then better decide whether they are "keepers" or if I need to flip them and continue my search...but such extended lead times, as in this case, make that process less practical...
...I understand the value of building a microphone and outfitting it with a capsule from Tim Campbell, or Thiersch and the quality implied when deciding to purchase from such reputable, established sources...but, when the manufacturer himself turns a discerning ear to his own product as has been done in this thread, it's just a bit unsettling, that's all...
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