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Microphone Test Sessions
- Thread starter chunger
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ruairioflaherty
Well-known member
kidvybes said:
The fact that Tim is committed to continual improvement where possible is "unsettling"?
I don't believe you can "confidently" buy anything in this game, you do your research, pick the best option and listen when you get it. That's it. I've resold far more gear than I've ever kept, mostly due to early years of foolishly believing what I read online and in magazines.
Just recently I demoed a $6k compressor that I was sure would perfectly fill a need in my mastering console, it was decidedly average.
kidvybes
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2011
- Messages
- 280
Tim Campbell said:
...it's not my intention to continue in this manner, but when you share the insight/understanding that the capsule used for Chunger's soundfiles no longer represents the current voicing of your CT12 (short of it being abused or tampered with), that's exactly what you've done...
...anyway, I'm out...carry on...
kidvybes
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2011
- Messages
- 280
Tim Campbell said:
...wow, you are difficult...that is not at all what I said...I simply said it is different...derived directly from your very own statement, "The capsule used here isn't the same as my current generation CT12"...how can I possibly come to the conclusions you're inferring?...they may both be different versions of "excellent"...isn't the same is what I'm stressing...
...clearly, your activity in this thread reflects some overt sensitivity to anything resembling criticism...best to chill, Tim...
kidvybes
Well-known member
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- Messages
- 280
Tim Campbell said:
...maybe just a language issue...
synonyms: discriminating, judicious, shrewd, clever, astute, intelligent, sharp, selective, sophisticated, tasteful, sensitive, perceptive, percipient, perspicacious, wise, aware, knowing;
...so, to turn a discriminating ear towards Chunger's particular CT12..."to critique" is the implication...
ruairioflaherty said:
...............on a side note, I SO hope it was not one of mine...
micaddict
Well-known member
OK, here's a plan, folks. Let's completely flood this microphone section with sound files/samples. From biased and unbiased members (most know what to to expect from whom anyway, but hey...); from members with and without an agenda; with vintage mics and clones; put on a multitude of different voices and different instruments; etc. etc. etc.
That way, all the subjectivity will eventually even out and even "beginners" (I'll refrain...) will start to see a pattern. And quality will most certainly rise to the surface.
Oh, and we could (!) have a lot of fun in the process.
Henk
That way, all the subjectivity will eventually even out and even "beginners" (I'll refrain...) will start to see a pattern. And quality will most certainly rise to the surface.
Oh, and we could (!) have a lot of fun in the process.
Henk
MicGeek
Active member
micaddict said:OK, here's a plan, folks. Let's completely flood this microphone section with sound files/samples. From biased and unbiased members (most know what to to expect from whom anyway, but hey...); from members with and without an agenda; with vintage mics and clones; put on a multitude of different voices and different instruments; etc. etc. etc.
That way, all the subjectivity will eventually even out and even "beginners" (I'll refrain...) will start to see a pattern. And quality will most certainly rise to the surface.
Oh, and we could (!) have a lot of fun in the process.
Henk
Excellent idea... Here's one I put together a few months back:
https://soundcloud.com/hit-masters/sets/microphone-shootout-beesneez
The MICS:
Pair custom made (for me) Beesneez C12's with the BN CK12 historically accurate capsules
MK47 with Beesneez M7 capsule
AKG C414BULS
__________________
The two songs are "When I Fall In Love" and "I Guess That's Why They Call It the Blues". I chose these songs for their difference in dynamics. There is also one track of the BNCK12 on a small "Acoustic" brand guitar cab with a Gretsch hollow body electric.
Piano was recording with the 2 BN C12's, in omni. Vocals were then recorded separately with the three different mics in cardioid.
(Note that I've discovered that my favorite pattern on piano is two clicks to the left of cardioid, but these omni's sound fine.)
All of the posted files should be downloadable so you can line them up in your own DAW at "0" and tweak whatever you want. Thus, there will be a short pause in the vocal files to allow for the piano "intro". Obviously, these are raw tracks, no processing.
LET'S GET THIS PARTY STARTED!!!
-Ben
wolan42
Well-known member
Hello,
like micaddict said, flood the mic section with soundfiles. ...;-)
But if you look, even now there are a lot of files in the net.
This summer, some guys from the german diy community do a meeting in Baden-Baden, to test some microphones and other diy gear. Clones and originals.
http://www.energyrecording.de/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2956&start=30
On the bottom, Kubi left a link for download the soundfiles. (use the blue Klick!)
In the zipped file, there are the soundfiles from the recording session with a short description.
Cheers
Charlie
like micaddict said, flood the mic section with soundfiles. ...;-)
But if you look, even now there are a lot of files in the net.
This summer, some guys from the german diy community do a meeting in Baden-Baden, to test some microphones and other diy gear. Clones and originals.
http://www.energyrecording.de/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2956&start=30
On the bottom, Kubi left a link for download the soundfiles. (use the blue Klick!)
In the zipped file, there are the soundfiles from the recording session with a short description.
Cheers
Charlie
anyone else singing after hearing these clips? ;D
kcatthedog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 13, 2013
- Messages
- 90
I was wondering if we can step back a bit , as this thread isn't a joke ?
I don't recall chung suggesting in any way that ANYBODY should rush out and PURCHASE or CONCLUDE anything based on his soundclips.
He merely shared his experience and observations; we can listen and decide what ever we want to decide for ourselves. Which can obviously include following up with anyone of the manufacturer's/ designer's here for discussing special tuning. etc..
With all due respect: two of those referenced here never ever responded to my repeated and specific emails to them concerning my purchase of their products. In one case , I bought anyway due only to the recommendation of someone I trusted from this site; no sound clips.
Three of the others referenced here have responded to each and all of my emails and one provided their cell phone number so we could talk directly: more than once.
Speaking as as ex- waiter, ( who knows all about working hard to create customer satisfaction ( when I was never the chef) ), :which do you think: Chung's clips or my direct experience will weigh most heavily in my future purchase decisions ?
We all know the dirty little secrets in our DIY world are shipping, duty, insurance charges. Getting internationally sourced stuff to Canada we get really gouged by the shippers and for insurance, if I have to send stuff back its times two and cost savings and my satisfaction start to diminish rapidly.
If I buy something at a local store, I can return it no problem.
My point is, we all have a vested interest in ensuring as best as possible the customer is as happy as possible the first time .
A thread like this helps to inform my decision:it does not make it for me.
Us ex waiter's keep an eye on our customer service experience
If people want to post other clips, do please explain the context and the methodology; thanks.
I don't recall chung suggesting in any way that ANYBODY should rush out and PURCHASE or CONCLUDE anything based on his soundclips.
He merely shared his experience and observations; we can listen and decide what ever we want to decide for ourselves. Which can obviously include following up with anyone of the manufacturer's/ designer's here for discussing special tuning. etc..
With all due respect: two of those referenced here never ever responded to my repeated and specific emails to them concerning my purchase of their products. In one case , I bought anyway due only to the recommendation of someone I trusted from this site; no sound clips.
Three of the others referenced here have responded to each and all of my emails and one provided their cell phone number so we could talk directly: more than once.
Speaking as as ex- waiter, ( who knows all about working hard to create customer satisfaction ( when I was never the chef) ), :which do you think: Chung's clips or my direct experience will weigh most heavily in my future purchase decisions ?
We all know the dirty little secrets in our DIY world are shipping, duty, insurance charges. Getting internationally sourced stuff to Canada we get really gouged by the shippers and for insurance, if I have to send stuff back its times two and cost savings and my satisfaction start to diminish rapidly.
If I buy something at a local store, I can return it no problem.
My point is, we all have a vested interest in ensuring as best as possible the customer is as happy as possible the first time .
A thread like this helps to inform my decision:it does not make it for me.
Us ex waiter's keep an eye on our customer service experience
If people want to post other clips, do please explain the context and the methodology; thanks.
micaddict
Well-known member
Yeah, brother!
But I suggest starting new (and separate ) threads for them.
I'll start one in a minute.
Oh, and checking out old ones is fine, but we need new ones, of course.
micaddict
Well-known member
I'm with Tim on this subject. I've worked for 10+ years as a reviewer for a German recording magazine, and microphones are my pet subject. IMHO sound files don't really tell you much about a microphone; it's not your room, not your voice/guitar/whatever, and it's not your experience. Yet all that really counts when comparing microphones is your own experience.
If I really had to make a decision without having access to the mic/capsule in question, I'd rather rely on someone's opinion who did have a direct experience (provided he/she is both knowledgeable and unbiased) than I'd rely on someone else's sound files.
I own a lot of microphones, some old (such as a genuine U47), some new (such as Neumann TLMs), some in-between (such as an AKG C414 EB P48), and some that I built myself (including one equipped with a Tim Campbell capsule).
More recently I had a Siemens SM204 on loan; that's basically a C12 with the bigger Henry transformer (the SM204 circuit is slightly different but this one was converted to the C12 circuit). Although my Campbell equipped tube mic uses a pretty basic circuit with a small Beyer transformer (I consider it a first try; I haven't yet found the time to build a cooler version), it sounded pretty similar to this "C12 Deluxe." The overall balance was almost identical, with the Campbell capsule having a bit more bass. They both gave you this better-than-real feeling with a slight, very tasty treble lift that always appeared natural (i.e. part of the signal, not artificial processing). The CT12 is a beautiful sounding capsule by someone who really cares.
@Tim: You mentioned Beyerdynamic - to my knowledge they never made a CK12 style capsule. If you're referring to the MC740 capsule: That's a K89 knock-off, just voiced much brighter. The newer MC840 uses the same edge-terminated 22-mm-capsule with a more linear voicing.
If I really had to make a decision without having access to the mic/capsule in question, I'd rather rely on someone's opinion who did have a direct experience (provided he/she is both knowledgeable and unbiased) than I'd rely on someone else's sound files.
I own a lot of microphones, some old (such as a genuine U47), some new (such as Neumann TLMs), some in-between (such as an AKG C414 EB P48), and some that I built myself (including one equipped with a Tim Campbell capsule).
More recently I had a Siemens SM204 on loan; that's basically a C12 with the bigger Henry transformer (the SM204 circuit is slightly different but this one was converted to the C12 circuit). Although my Campbell equipped tube mic uses a pretty basic circuit with a small Beyer transformer (I consider it a first try; I haven't yet found the time to build a cooler version), it sounded pretty similar to this "C12 Deluxe." The overall balance was almost identical, with the Campbell capsule having a bit more bass. They both gave you this better-than-real feeling with a slight, very tasty treble lift that always appeared natural (i.e. part of the signal, not artificial processing). The CT12 is a beautiful sounding capsule by someone who really cares.
@Tim: You mentioned Beyerdynamic - to my knowledge they never made a CK12 style capsule. If you're referring to the MC740 capsule: That's a K89 knock-off, just voiced much brighter. The newer MC840 uses the same edge-terminated 22-mm-capsule with a more linear voicing.
ruairioflaherty
Well-known member
gyraf said:
Don't worry Jakob, it wasn't! It was something I was really excited to hear and funnily enough but it just didn't work for what I do.
MicGeek
Active member
Banzai said:
As far as I know, Eric makes his caps as a hobby for now, but he has been one of the best guys to deal with, giving me his personal cell phone number, sending me clips of the actual capsule before he shipped it, and invited me over for Christmas Dinner... ok, maybe not the last one, but he made me feel like I was his only customer, all while I know he is in the middle of fulfilling a huge order. The fact that Tim hasn't even acknowledged the fact that I've tried to contact him so many times, but finds the time to write lengthy, sometimes arrogant responses on this thread, tells me that he just doesn't care, and for that, I don't want or need his wares, I don't care how good they are.
And that's what a free market is all about.
MicGeek
Active member
micaddict said:
I hope it's not a faux pax to cut and paste a post to a new thread, but that's exactly what I'm going to do. Thanks for starting it!
chunger
Well-known member
Follow up studio test session scheduled for Friday. . . hopefully I will be able to get everything ready. Here are some of the things I want to get ears on.
1) HT-11A meshing (type1, type2, type3, type4) I get a lot of inquiries regarding the sonics of different meshing and headbasket geometries, and I simply do not have good information. Hopefully, I will be able to get some data points to understand if the differences are significant or minimal and understand how to make an informed choice when chasing a particular sound for a microphone.
-C12 type1
-C12 type2
-C12 type3
-C12 type4
2) U87i transformer differences. I will use the Peluso U87 clone specifically because that capsule exhibits a more "forward" treble response, and might be able to reveal better subtle differences in transformer voicing. I will prep the PCB with standoffs so switching the transformers is easier.
-U87 clone AMI T13
-U87 clone Cinemag CM-13113
-U87 clone original vintage Neumann
-U87 clone new prototype unit
3) K67 capsule on ioaudio MK67 clone
-new production Neumann K870
-Eric Heiserman HK67
4) C12 clone transformer
-AMI T14
-Cinemag CM-13114
5) C12 clone capsule. . . likely test capsules in same microphone to minimize component-related variances.
-Heiserman HK12
-Campbell CT12
6) C12 capsule shallow vs. deep dish depth.
-HK12 1st gen capsule
-HK12 2nd gen capsule
7) Regulated vs. passive B+ on C12 circuit. . . this would also test true regulated bias as the prototype PSU has a true fixed bias output instead of the self-bias scheme of the original schematic.
-Current Passive/regulated kit PSU
-prototype regulated/regulated/regulated psu (not released)
8) Function verification on ceramic composite C12 PCB
-hybrid prototype microphone (12AT7, HK47 capsule, CM-13114)
9) Function verification on ceramic composite ELA M251 PCB
-prototype microphone (HK12, NOS GE 6072A, CM-13114)
10) baseline confirmation from previous test (Thiersch mk47 microphone)
11) baseline confirmation from previous test (HK47 mk47 microphone)
12) baseline confirmation from previous test (PTP C12 build)
- cardioid (as previously recorded)
- 1 click towards omni
I think that's all I have on the plate for now, and it will be a pretty hectic session for me lining up the sequence. Hopefully I will be more efficient than last time and experience fewer technical difficulties.
1) HT-11A meshing (type1, type2, type3, type4) I get a lot of inquiries regarding the sonics of different meshing and headbasket geometries, and I simply do not have good information. Hopefully, I will be able to get some data points to understand if the differences are significant or minimal and understand how to make an informed choice when chasing a particular sound for a microphone.
-C12 type1
-C12 type2
-C12 type3
-C12 type4
2) U87i transformer differences. I will use the Peluso U87 clone specifically because that capsule exhibits a more "forward" treble response, and might be able to reveal better subtle differences in transformer voicing. I will prep the PCB with standoffs so switching the transformers is easier.
-U87 clone AMI T13
-U87 clone Cinemag CM-13113
-U87 clone original vintage Neumann
-U87 clone new prototype unit
3) K67 capsule on ioaudio MK67 clone
-new production Neumann K870
-Eric Heiserman HK67
4) C12 clone transformer
-AMI T14
-Cinemag CM-13114
5) C12 clone capsule. . . likely test capsules in same microphone to minimize component-related variances.
-Heiserman HK12
-Campbell CT12
6) C12 capsule shallow vs. deep dish depth.
-HK12 1st gen capsule
-HK12 2nd gen capsule
7) Regulated vs. passive B+ on C12 circuit. . . this would also test true regulated bias as the prototype PSU has a true fixed bias output instead of the self-bias scheme of the original schematic.
-Current Passive/regulated kit PSU
-prototype regulated/regulated/regulated psu (not released)
8) Function verification on ceramic composite C12 PCB
-hybrid prototype microphone (12AT7, HK47 capsule, CM-13114)
9) Function verification on ceramic composite ELA M251 PCB
-prototype microphone (HK12, NOS GE 6072A, CM-13114)
10) baseline confirmation from previous test (Thiersch mk47 microphone)
11) baseline confirmation from previous test (HK47 mk47 microphone)
12) baseline confirmation from previous test (PTP C12 build)
- cardioid (as previously recorded)
- 1 click towards omni
I think that's all I have on the plate for now, and it will be a pretty hectic session for me lining up the sequence. Hopefully I will be more efficient than last time and experience fewer technical difficulties.
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