trouble capturing elec guitar highs/ break-up/dirt

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toneboner

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2011
Messages
73
Location
Florida
I'm having a difficult time trying to record an accurate room sound of my new amp.  I was tracking with headphones on for the first few passes using an at4050 near my ears (about 5 feet  diagonally from the cab) thru access 312 (oep, 2520) and was really pleased with the sound!  BUT, then I took off the phones and realized that although I was capturing a really usable guitar sound that has all the personality of the amp/room I was NOT capturing the sweet, spanky, dirty highs of break-up.  The difference really is not subtle either.  There's a whole level of rich, sizzley, sustainy, distortiony goodness that isn't making it onto disk. 

I've tried repositioning/ changing mics, close dynamic mic ing and even, in an act of desperation, removing the zobel (which to my surprise had much less effect than i would have thought).  I tried a different pre as well - a very cheap mixer - just to rule out weirdness with my diy312.  Interestingly and annoyingly, I also put up my ipod which so far has done the best job out of all these setups!! 

My main goal is really just to record what i'm hearing where i sit and play.  It's not that far off, but that 10% difference is like the difference between really liking a girl and falling in love. OK,, bad metaphor...

Anyone had similar issues? 
 
If you are sure about the tone coming from your amp and also your playing then your issue comes from acoustics and/or gear. A lack of dirty highs may be due to too much absortion material (carpets, curtains, etc) in your room. Or maybe your amp is on the floor and early reflections acts in a weird manner on the microphone, put the amp on a chair, cover it with blankets so you'll isolate it from the room

I use different techniques on recording guitar cabs...close dynamic and ribbon, close dynamic and condenser, close dynamic and ribbon plus distant condenser...

Do you use just one mic? try a dynamic an inch or two from the grill (on axis and off-axis) and a condenser 3 to 5 feet away to get room and blend to taste...

Hope it helps...
 
It's almost always the mic and its position, along with acoustics.  Rarely the preamp.  The iPod is working better?  Try an omni mic closer to the cabinet. 
 
thanks for all the advice and replies!

I'd be really curious to throw an expensive vintage German mic at the problem and see if it goes away.

Seriously tho,,  mic placement and close mic ing got me some extra snarl and presence but that's not really the sound I'm after. In fact I would nt say I'm after any kind of sound - just the accurate reproduction of what my ears are taking in where I am in relation to the source. I've thought about diaphragm size and pattern - an omni would be nice to play with but I'm limited in options. the difference is so drastic  I would expect my current set of tools (tho limited) to get me closer.

Btw, I'm going straight from my pre into an RME multiface. I would cast more suspicion on the RME if it didn't work 100% perfectly in every other way. I will experiment with a different recorder tho since that's the only other variable whose change yielded better results.

I think I would have come across this issue sooner had I ever recorded drums, cymbal over heads. All my experience with this setup has been acoustic guit., banjo, Hammond and fendery clean amps - all which never gave me reason to question whether I was missing something. Well I'm sure confused now!

I'll experiment further and report back with sound clips whether or not I'm successful...
 
Perhaps while listening using  headphones walk around with the mic in your hand and listen for tonal differences between near/close, on-axis/off-axis, front. back, and side...  Guitar amps propagate sound in 3 dimensions.

JR
 
I think the problem lies in the differences between the mic and your ears. For starters you have two ears and the mic has one so they hear the room quite differently. This may sound odd but you could try stuffing one ear with cotton woll and listening to the room again. Alternatively try stereo micing.

Cheers

Ian
 
What monitors are you using?

When I love the sound of the amp in the room my stock approach is a Sennheiser 441 dynamic about 6 inches from the best speaker and a U67 in the room anywhere between 4 and 20 feet back depending on the song.  This is for overdubs only obviously.

The Sennheiser 441 is an amazing mic in that capacity, the best IMO.  I have owned most of the superstar dynamics (RE20, 421, Beyer M88, 57, 58 etc).  Worth borrowing one if you can, I kept my pair when I sold almost all of my other mics,

For the room mic I've had good luck with almost anything that isn't awful - U87, 414 and yes the 4050 a few times.

 
I have the problem you describe all the time  ....  guitars can be reasonably well recorded and all, but they continue to sound different and not as 'real' on playback.

I do have some reasonable DAW/speakers and good sounding DIY in the chain.

I think that only experience, both playing and recording combined with room treatment is the real answer long term.

BUT I recently purchased a Tascam DR40 - cheap, digital audio recorder with built in mic pair. (electret condenser I guess).

For the 200usd or so I paid (delivered!), the quick and dirty recording method has yielded the most accurate of my guitar playing, so far.

Amazing 'real world' quality, and trivially easy to use.Especially on acoustic instruments. And on cifficult instruments with highly complex top sound, like steel guitar, classical guitar etc.

It is a revolution in my mind - just point and shoot, focus on playing the instrument and getting the sound out in the best possible way. Then, load up to DAW and pontificate further :)

Might be interesting for your case to hear how a simple recorder 'hears' your room and compare with DAW takes.

 
very interesting indeed Alexc!  I just read a thread in another forum about a users similar experience with  a Boss multitrack (BR-600?) with built in mic that was turning out to be hard to  beat (or even replicate) thru other methods.  What's up with those electret condensors?!!?  I would guess there's some heavy DSP going on.  But why does it seem to work so good?!

On the advice of Ruairio, Ian, Doug and JR i've gone back to the basics (placement, treatment, polarity awareness) and am sad to say it's looking like the problem may lie with the engineer and not the equipment.  I'm still hoping for a mystifying, esoteric Dx / Rx to emerge which will absolve me of the burden of actually learning the (stupid) basics.

My night nurse (sugar momma) is off for a few nights, so the house is being held at gunpoint not to make any noise while she recuperates. pshhh, wtvr. Add small studio space to the list with vintage German mic...

 
ruffrecords said:
I think the problem lies in the differences between the mic and your ears. For starters you have two ears and the mic has one so they hear the room quite differently. This may sound odd but you could try stuffing one ear with cotton woll and listening to the room again. Alternatively try stereo micing.

Cheers

Ian

I'm with Ian.
You probably need stereo micing.

I would say you should try two Omni mics not close to the amp, but close to the position you are.

I think what you want to listen is something that would be very well captured with a Binaural microphone.
They're easy to do with panasonic electrec capsules, I totally advise you to try it, I think you would feel it represents better what you are listening in the room.

Other could be a more traditional approach but with 3 mics, 1 dynamic close micing the speaker, and a stereo condenser pair further away to capture the room, then mix the 3 signals to taste. in this case mix them in a way they sound like what youre listening in the room.

I still think you are one of those people that would love a Binaural mic for this.
 
thanks for that whoops.  very interesting! something like these? http://www.frogloggers.com/bt-em172/
 
I'm just gonna echo that acoustics and how you are hearing them makes a big difference. 
You could also try two mics but throwing a compressor on one of the mics, and/then narrowing the high band you are 'hearing/wanting' with an eq pre or post.
Its not the best solution as mic placement and the room are vastly more effective usually but ive done it many times before with excellent results and it is a means to an end.
 
toneboner said:
thanks for that whoops.  very interesting! something like these? http://www.frogloggers.com/bt-em172/

If you want to DIY a binaural mic to cost eficient best results are achieved by using 2x  Panasonic WM-61A Electret Condenser capsules.
There's loads of projects and information on the web for those.
Although Panasonic discontinued electric capsules you can still find them easily on ebay.

1 )By the capsules, link below
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-WM-61A-Electret-Condenser-MIC-Capsule-10PCS-/280604648333?pt=US_Pro_Audio_Parts_Accessories&hash=item415557238d

2) Perform the Linkwitz Mod on the capsules. loads of info on the web
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSPQf42JgbI

3) Do a simple pre circuit for the capsules that works with phantom power, I advise this one to keep it simple but theres loads of circuits floating around for these capsules
http://moosapotamus.net/mics.html

Then you can simple install them with gaffer tape into your headphones and record.

hope this helps
 
For me, one mic never gets the job done on distorted guitar. Typically I'll use a dynamic on the cab and a condenser a little bit back. You really have to move the mics around, and possibly change out mics, to get what you're looking for.
 
Here's what i got so far - haven't had ANY time lately for anything besides rehearsals. This is a pair of MXL 2001 pre Royer mod (wish I had time for that too!) in XY about 5 ft from the amp.  You can definitely tell its not a clean amp sound.  But if you were in the room with me you'd hear how theres a whole layer of dirt missing from tape.  This is through a pair of 312 (oep, 2520) no processing, no EQ,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3a8fxcgxr050vk4/mxl%20stereo%202.mp3?dl=0
 
toneboner said:
Here's what i got so far - haven't had ANY time lately for anything besides rehearsals. This is a pair of MXL 2001 pre Royer mod (wish I had time for that too!) in XY about 5 ft from the amp.  You can definitely tell its not a clean amp sound.  But if you were in the room with me you'd hear how theres a whole layer of dirt missing from tape.  This is through a pair of 312 (oep, 2520) no processing, no EQ,

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3a8fxcgxr050vk4/mxl%20stereo%202.mp3?dl=0

50% of the sound is the gear, in the room, and another 40% comes from mike placement.

As said above, I've always had the best luck with a dynamic (SM57 and/or SM7B) up close, and an omni (if I'm really digging the room tone) or cardioid (if I'm not digging it so much) about 5-6 feet back.  I typically start with the cab elevated about 2 feet from the floor as well, as lesser treated rooms can have bass filtering if the mike is within several feet from the floor.

http://youtu.be/jfEh79A0b0U

Although your sound isn't heavy like this, this video shows a lot of the technique I use to get the best close-mike sound - you can hear in the examples how much the mike + position has on the sound.
 
Matador! Dude, love your vid. Thanks for that. Can't wait to see what other pearls of wisdom you've so generously shared on YouTube...
 
toneboner said:
Matador! Dude, love your vid. Thanks for that. Can't wait to see what other pearls of wisdom you've so generously shared on YouTube...

Not my vid, although I wish I was one-quarter as entertaining as Glenn. :)
 
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