Landins
Well-known member
A triode on a chip. Is the future here?
http://www.korg.com/us/news/2015/012212/
http://www.korg.com/us/news/2015/012212/
Tube on a chip
- Thread starter Landins
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
I'd be careful about reading too much into a marketing release. It looks like they have used their display technology to make a low power tube. I find it a little disturbing that they claim "distortion" as a feature but for an effects device this is not crazy, just not obviously a better vacuum tube, perhaps a better tube for that one application (making distortion)...
Back decades ago I recall some development work to make a tube on a an IC substrate and they etched a point electrode that could emit free electrons inside the IC (without a heater IIRC). I don't recall any future development progress on that esoteric IC technology. Perhaps the world doesn't really need new tubes.
JR
Back decades ago I recall some development work to make a tube on a an IC substrate and they etched a point electrode that could emit free electrons inside the IC (without a heater IIRC). I don't recall any future development progress on that esoteric IC technology. Perhaps the world doesn't really need new tubes.
JR
audiomixer
Well-known member
this hase been done already, albeit as a hack:
http://hackaday.com/2010/04/22/vfd-as-a-sound-amplifier/
... neat idea, but I don't know how practible it is in reality.
- Michael
http://hackaday.com/2010/04/22/vfd-as-a-sound-amplifier/
... neat idea, but I don't know how practible it is in reality.
- Michael
JohnRoberts said:
I'd like to see such a thing working, emitting electrons at ambient temperature? what material would that be? interesting, at least for learning purposes... quite a lot of physics involved in something like this.
JS
What kind of vacuum are normal tubes under in mg/in? Maybe these are under a very deep vacuum, or even deep vacuum and back-filling of some gas?
As Mr JR pointed out there is some choice wording used. With that I'll be optimistic and hope that they can create a hybrid type of tube on silicon device that can deliver plate-grid/plate curves similar to specific tube types, at better efficiencies. Man that might be really fun. Imagine having tubes without all the PSU baggage. But then are we just talking transistors at that point?
As Mr JR pointed out there is some choice wording used. With that I'll be optimistic and hope that they can create a hybrid type of tube on silicon device that can deliver plate-grid/plate curves similar to specific tube types, at better efficiencies. Man that might be really fun. Imagine having tubes without all the PSU baggage. But then are we just talking transistors at that point?
> Tube on a chip
> oh, this one has a rectangular shape... wow
It is not a "chip". Flat glass box with a hard vacuum inside.
It is the front-panel of a 1980s-2000s CD/DVD or car-radio, with the symbol decoder left out and direct connection to the glow elements.
It IS a vacuum tube. Plain ordinary hot cathode (oxide-coated filament). Like a battery beach-radio tube, except not optimized for gain.
Produced by the many-millions for decades, with incredible reliability, but fading under pressure from LCD displays. Left-over technology.
I estimate it is a "low performance" amplifier triode, but that is plenty good enough for Korg's stage-effects business. Curves are surely triode-like. Lack of gain and grunt can be entirely overcome with 19 cent opamps.
Dissection and picture:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=109894.0
> oh, this one has a rectangular shape... wow
It is not a "chip". Flat glass box with a hard vacuum inside.
It is the front-panel of a 1980s-2000s CD/DVD or car-radio, with the symbol decoder left out and direct connection to the glow elements.
It IS a vacuum tube. Plain ordinary hot cathode (oxide-coated filament). Like a battery beach-radio tube, except not optimized for gain.
Produced by the many-millions for decades, with incredible reliability, but fading under pressure from LCD displays. Left-over technology.
I estimate it is a "low performance" amplifier triode, but that is plenty good enough for Korg's stage-effects business. Curves are surely triode-like. Lack of gain and grunt can be entirely overcome with 19 cent opamps.
Dissection and picture:
http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=109894.0
> sorry for the bad English, re: chip...
> at least more than 10 years old ....
You did not say "chip", which could be anything anyway.
10 years? The first such VFD display came in 1959. It looked like a bottle-tube, but in the long run the flat shape made more sense for displays. Now that Korg is not using it for a display panel, maybe another shape would be better? But Noritake has all these flat-panel molds and machinery and workers who can assemble them fast/cheap. No good reason to change that.
> at least more than 10 years old ....
You did not say "chip", which could be anything anyway.
10 years? The first such VFD display came in 1959. It looked like a bottle-tube, but in the long run the flat shape made more sense for displays. Now that Korg is not using it for a display panel, maybe another shape would be better? But Noritake has all these flat-panel molds and machinery and workers who can assemble them fast/cheap. No good reason to change that.
Kingston
Well-known member
PRR thank you for the dissection and historical references.
To put the low performance of this tiny tube into perspective with what Korg has done elsewhere, see Korg Valve Reactor. It's still used in their products and licensed by Vox for their Valvetronics stuff, too. I've dissected it and it's simply an opamp buffered 12AX7 working at 12V plate voltage. Yes that low, shared with heater. One dual triode half per channel since we're stereo.
All these choices are perfectly fine and acceptable if you want distortion in a stomp box and need to flaunt some fancy names and tubes to the customer.
To put the low performance of this tiny tube into perspective with what Korg has done elsewhere, see Korg Valve Reactor. It's still used in their products and licensed by Vox for their Valvetronics stuff, too. I've dissected it and it's simply an opamp buffered 12AX7 working at 12V plate voltage. Yes that low, shared with heater. One dual triode half per channel since we're stereo.
All these choices are perfectly fine and acceptable if you want distortion in a stomp box and need to flaunt some fancy names and tubes to the customer.
joaquins said:
It is many years since I read the single press report but IIRC it used IC fabrication technology to etch a very sharp point for the electron emitter. Kind of like how the air ionizers or lightning rods work a very small sharp point can emit electrons with lower charge potentials.
My sense was that this was a gee-whiz we can make electrons jump off this electrode inside an IC, not that it was a practical technology.
As PRR has noted the display technology is already a variant tube so economically sensible to repurpose unused production as a distortion effect.
JR
Piedwagtail
Well-known member
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Re-post of Eric Barbour at Muff Wigglers
Andy Peters
Well-known member
PRR said:
The Noritake VFDs are NICE but the OLED displays are eating their lunch.
-a
> Noritake VFDs are NICE but the OLED displays are eating their lunch.
Right. So what is Noritake going to do with all those VFD machines and workers?
Ultimately it will all be scrapped--- but a deal with KORG will keep one machine and a few workers going for a while.
Even so, I suspect KORG's yearly demand is like one day's production at Noritake. So at some point it won't make sense to leave the lights on, or carry scrap-iron worth an easy $0.13/pound cash-in-hand. Or to move one machine into a smaller shed and set it up again. This may already be a Lifetime Buy device.
The speculation that this is mainly a mind-game against Mike (or Uli?) is interesting.
Right. So what is Noritake going to do with all those VFD machines and workers?
Ultimately it will all be scrapped--- but a deal with KORG will keep one machine and a few workers going for a while.
Even so, I suspect KORG's yearly demand is like one day's production at Noritake. So at some point it won't make sense to leave the lights on, or carry scrap-iron worth an easy $0.13/pound cash-in-hand. Or to move one machine into a smaller shed and set it up again. This may already be a Lifetime Buy device.
The speculation that this is mainly a mind-game against Mike (or Uli?) is interesting.
Scodiddly
Well-known member
PRR said:
Well OK, I guess you're just throwing money at the problem.
Sorry to dredge this up again, but an ebay seller in Poland is selling some of these tubes and posted the datasheet and evaluation board manual. Thought some folks might be interested so I put them in the Tech Docs section.
