Interesting that in the past we've kicked off members for manufacturing clone kits that copied original manufacturer names/logos, yet these days it seems to be open season again, with virtually no criticism of the practice. Maybe we should invite Perusha (and others) back?
Clones with original manufacturer names
- Thread starter emrr
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Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
pucho812
Well-known member
I been wondering about this as well. Seems to not be limited to the DIY world with many companies making clones and calling them by the same names and so forth.
Seems to be at this point in time seems audio has reduced itself to the following for the most part
optical compressors are la2a
vca compressors are in stereo and are ssl 4000 buss compressors
fet compressors are 1176
tube eqs are pultec
Mic pres must either be Neve or API
While I do like the above items it seems that the audio market place is more concerned with churning out yet another pultec eq or yet another api 312 mic pre well beyond any other designs, original or tweaked.
Seems to be at this point in time seems audio has reduced itself to the following for the most part
optical compressors are la2a
vca compressors are in stereo and are ssl 4000 buss compressors
fet compressors are 1176
tube eqs are pultec
Mic pres must either be Neve or API
While I do like the above items it seems that the audio market place is more concerned with churning out yet another pultec eq or yet another api 312 mic pre well beyond any other designs, original or tweaked.
One time that's a counterfeit. If enough do that the name has become generic. If no one defends it, it is what is is.pucho812 said:
Some lead some follow, actually many follow.
Those all sound like legacy products using marginally obsolete technology. It is fraud if people believe they are getting actual antique gear. Otherwise it's just a tax on poor judgment.
Don't know, I escaped from consumer audio decades ago because it wasn't rational.
JR
Rocinante
Well-known member
Although I admit that I find the practice of labeling a DIY unit as an original or as a respected recreation is tantamount to stealing I believe that most people purchasing such gear (and it ain't cheap) would have enough brains to look inside and see the dramatic differences. The only reasons I can determine for someone to make a clone is they want their studio to either look like its stacked with original expensive gear or that they want to sell it to some shmuck. In either case its fraud.
I saw a dude on Ebay selling Manley front panels. What do you think the purchaser is gonna do with those? They did come with those nice Kilo knobs but i doubt they were equal to what he was asking; the bid started at $250.
Recreations by other companies seems to be alright with me as long as its stated so.
Neve-type. APIsh. Pultec-type.
It gives one an idea of what it is based on.
I doubt many people in the industry think that those Pultec eqs are actually Pultecs. Usually some points out "Hey nice EQ, but its not a Pultec."
I saw a dude on Ebay selling Manley front panels. What do you think the purchaser is gonna do with those? They did come with those nice Kilo knobs but i doubt they were equal to what he was asking; the bid started at $250.
Recreations by other companies seems to be alright with me as long as its stated so.
Neve-type. APIsh. Pultec-type.
It gives one an idea of what it is based on.
I doubt many people in the industry think that those Pultec eqs are actually Pultecs. Usually some points out "Hey nice EQ, but its not a Pultec."
I'm not so much debating the reality of it, it will always be, somewhere. I'm noticing specifically the change at this forum. So many people were chased off, not too many years ago. I don't see much of anyone raising concerns about it anymore.
dmp
Well-known member
Maybe I haven't been paying attention, but I can't think of what projects you're talking about.
I do see people posting pics of custom front panels for a kit that has the manufacturer name / logo that they made one off (i.e. a neve faceplate for a nv73 kit) but what kit is including this?
I have a lot of people coming to my studio setup and I'm always saying this is based on such-and-such. It just makes it easier to give a reference when describing gear. But IMO a exact recreation of a frontpanel for a brand that is currently in production seems silly to me - reminds me of kit cars (making a ford fiesta look like a dodge viper). It tells me the 'look' is more important than the substance. For me the substance is more important, and I like the 'look' to have some individuality.
And while we're at it, some of the manufacturers with valuable names are cashing in too - profiting on the "look" while skimping on substance. That bother's me greatly since someone with character and quality built up that name (Bill Putnam, Rupert Neve, etc...) and then capitalism turned it into a commodity. Anyway...
I do see people posting pics of custom front panels for a kit that has the manufacturer name / logo that they made one off (i.e. a neve faceplate for a nv73 kit) but what kit is including this?
I have a lot of people coming to my studio setup and I'm always saying this is based on such-and-such. It just makes it easier to give a reference when describing gear. But IMO a exact recreation of a frontpanel for a brand that is currently in production seems silly to me - reminds me of kit cars (making a ford fiesta look like a dodge viper). It tells me the 'look' is more important than the substance. For me the substance is more important, and I like the 'look' to have some individuality.
And while we're at it, some of the manufacturers with valuable names are cashing in too - profiting on the "look" while skimping on substance. That bother's me greatly since someone with character and quality built up that name (Bill Putnam, Rupert Neve, etc...) and then capitalism turned it into a commodity. Anyway...
Yeah, the look, I have a point to point StaLevel clone built with an original StaLevel input transformer, an original Gates logo badge, original Gates knobs, and the majority of the meter and front panel look being pretty close. I don't think anyone would mistake it, but I guarantee someone would. It's a one-off. Radio stations did that sort of thing on occasion, as internal process, for various reasons.
I'm not so much talking about that sort of thing, as I am the supplying of near-exact clone parts (cases and meters with logos, etc) on a basis of multiples. I'm not passing judgement on it either, there's not enough time in my day to do so, just noticing the change of flavor here. What's changed?
I'm not so much talking about that sort of thing, as I am the supplying of near-exact clone parts (cases and meters with logos, etc) on a basis of multiples. I'm not passing judgement on it either, there's not enough time in my day to do so, just noticing the change of flavor here. What's changed?
dmp
Well-known member
Well I just looked through the white market and nothing stood out.
Maybe you don't want to "name names" but I don't see the "change of flavor".
You must have noticed somethings I haven't, but I'll keep an eye out.
Maybe you don't want to "name names" but I don't see the "change of flavor".
You must have noticed somethings I haven't, but I'll keep an eye out.
It's a steady trickle, not a lot, none in the white market....where they should be. Used to be even the suggestion would bring out the flaming torches, even doing a close copy for yourself. Actually, there was an Italian LA-2A clone case in the WM for awhile, I don't think it's been there in more than a year. Might have been a 'cease and desist'.
dmp
Well-known member
Well then I guess the Perusha case was different since he ripped off someone else's PCB design to make a kit to sell.
That's a level higher than someone making a small amount of Neve front panels for a neve kit, imo.
I sometimes write a post that is judgmental of something someone else posted, but tend (try) to delete it before posting.
I guess I feel better to not be criticizing others - even though I feel the urge.
If the forum wants to take a stand, then a forum rule could be added, and posts would be flagged that violate. I don't think a lynch mob is a good solution though.
That's a level higher than someone making a small amount of Neve front panels for a neve kit, imo.
I sometimes write a post that is judgmental of something someone else posted, but tend (try) to delete it before posting.
I guess I feel better to not be criticizing others - even though I feel the urge.
If the forum wants to take a stand, then a forum rule could be added, and posts would be flagged that violate. I don't think a lynch mob is a good solution though.
dmp said:
Indeed, selling the work of others is not okay. But i don't think copying logo's and stuff is correct either (but for private use). There are many brands bringing up products these days, inspired by vintage gear (like warm audio etc..) but this is okay with me. They did their own work in research and development, so who cares? I am happy to have a greater choice in what i can buy, especially if it is cheaper and sounds as good as the original
ruairioflaherty
Well-known member
We never really had the conversation as a community, and the owners of the site haven't given clear directives either. It seems we tend to turn a blind eye when the transgressor is a friend and get uppity (guilty here too) when they are not.
Purusha was all about the dollar, his low point for me being cloning Purple Audio cases complete with logos, way to kick a DIY friendly small brand in the nuts. He deserved to be chased away.
The reality is that many here want to feel like they have a Neve or whatever for less money, I came here 10 years ago with that mindset. Now I and some others are more interested in the art itself or unique projects.
I don't expect that we'll really have the conversation now either.
Purusha was all about the dollar, his low point for me being cloning Purple Audio cases complete with logos, way to kick a DIY friendly small brand in the nuts. He deserved to be chased away.
The reality is that many here want to feel like they have a Neve or whatever for less money, I came here 10 years ago with that mindset. Now I and some others are more interested in the art itself or unique projects.
I don't expect that we'll really have the conversation now either.
ruffrecords
Well-known member
Has anyone actually made a specific complaint to the list owners?
Cheers
Ian
Cheers
Ian
sahib
Well-known member
weiss said:
You will require permission even for private use.
I can categorically say that quite a large percentage of stuff made here is strictly speaking illegal. It is literally impossible to police every single individual and that is why people are able to get away with it.
I've said it before, I got in 'trouble' with Quad Eight when racking some original Q8 modules for sale, they didn't like me reproducing the logo on the rack case. They actually thought I was passing off counterfeits at first. When I started that rack project, the name had not yet been bought and revived.
sahib said:
you dont need permission for private use.
u can even show case it, in a private event.
u can even cover the whole wall with any logo u want, any name u want. any number of clones u want...
(i worked for this kind of projects many times)
u will need permission if u r going public...
if u have a commercial studio, thats public...
this forum is open to public too...
Funny this topic should pop up today.
I just replied to someone who sent me a picture of his finished GssL.
"I am really not a fan of that front panel.
It seems that instead of making a GssL VCA comp, you made a SSL VCA comp with a company logo and everything, just the problem of the GssL circuit (not ssl) inside it."
I am sure I cross the line with what I am doing to some people as well, but there can be no doubt in my mind, that if you copy the panel and logo...
1. You are not playing nice with the manufacturer.
2. You are not playing nice with clients (Effectively renting out fake gear).
3. You are not though enough for rock n roll if you dont take the opportunity to put your own spin on a one-off front panel, but sheepishly copy a company layout, knob and colorscheme. At least put your name on it!?
Gustav
I just replied to someone who sent me a picture of his finished GssL.
"I am really not a fan of that front panel.
It seems that instead of making a GssL VCA comp, you made a SSL VCA comp with a company logo and everything, just the problem of the GssL circuit (not ssl) inside it."
I am sure I cross the line with what I am doing to some people as well, but there can be no doubt in my mind, that if you copy the panel and logo...
1. You are not playing nice with the manufacturer.
2. You are not playing nice with clients (Effectively renting out fake gear).
3. You are not though enough for rock n roll if you dont take the opportunity to put your own spin on a one-off front panel, but sheepishly copy a company layout, knob and colorscheme.
At least put your name on it!? Gustav
I make copies or versions of famous gear just for the fun of it. I don't try to clone the logo, because I would not want to mislead anyone, but my stuff would never be mistaken for the original in any case. I sometimes think that the spirit of this forum is lost when people make exact clones, where is the DIY in that?
The expertise is going into fakery rather than technicality. I try to put myself in the shoes of the original design engineers, did they use four 8uF caps and two chokes because that was the only way they could get the hum out of the HT? If they'd had 470uF x 450V caps back in the day, would they have used them? Sure they would.
Best
DaveP
The expertise is going into fakery rather than technicality. I try to put myself in the shoes of the original design engineers, did they use four 8uF caps and two chokes because that was the only way they could get the hum out of the HT? If they'd had 470uF x 450V caps back in the day, would they have used them? Sure they would.
Best
DaveP
The real problem in this is probably mostly the potentially negative effect that a counterfeit unit may have on original manufacturer's reputation, should the unit turn out to be crappy.
On many occasions I've had service requests on apparent Gyraf units from very unhappy users - only to find they had wrongly branded DIY..
NOT good for my street cred...
Although I understand the urge to legitimize oneself by standing on top of a well-known brand name, this tendency is unfortunately strongest among those that has only little experience in electronics - and thus those that rarely solder very well...
Jakob E.
On many occasions I've had service requests on apparent Gyraf units from very unhappy users - only to find they had wrongly branded DIY..
NOT good for my street cred...
Although I understand the urge to legitimize oneself by standing on top of a well-known brand name, this tendency is unfortunately strongest among those that has only little experience in electronics - and thus those that rarely solder very well...
Jakob E.
