DIY or Kits?

I get the distinct feeling some old timer DIY guys are not so keen on the kits that have exploded the last few years. Just wondering if anyone wants to chime in with their feelings on this trend?

For myself, although I love the DIY spirit, were it not for the kits and the "hand holding" of the veterans, I would not have nearly the fun, or learning, that I've experienced. So I squarely sit in both camps, believing doing it yourself is awesome, but kits are great and can be a super tool as well.

What do you guys thing?

Mike

I like picking my components rather than letting someone else do it for me.  If it's a circuit I understand fairly well I want to choose every part.  If it's something where I'm not chasing a certain tone or don't know the nuances of the circuit, kit works. 

I prefer to source my own components, but hate having to deal with metal work. The Hairball/Mnats 1176 was perfect for me. Easy to find the hard parts, didn't have to drill anything, but still got to source my own parts from Mouser.

The calibration instructions were nice too. Digging through scans of manuals from the 70's to find calibration info isn't always the most fun.

There is something to say for building from the ground up with a schematic. I've done it and did enjoy it. But for me, the best part is actually using the finished unit. I'm good with whatever gets me there a little faster.

Electronics is a hobby and enjoy as a break from everything. Music and audio is what I love the most.

There's no kit for the furnace fan controller I just put into operation. Winter, it flushes the cold air in the trunk then boosts warm air to the cold bedroom. Summer it boosts cooling to the upstairs where all the heat rises.

Unabomber didn't even buy parts. He made his own switches.

PRR said:

There's no kit for the furnace fan controller I just put into operation. Winter, it flushes the cold air in the trunk then boosts warm air to the cold bedroom. Summer it boosts cooling to the upstairs where all the heat rises.

Unabomber didn't even buy parts. He made his own switches.

Click to expand...

Hahahaha!

Point taken.

However, do you see value in some of these kits?

I've seen a lot of kits that aren't so great, no support, no actual understanding of the circuit by the person offering, incomplete parts, errors that have to be corrected, bad layouts, cheap and flimsy PCB's, no schematic provided, unobtainium parts that aren't provided, etc etc.  The bad ones are mostly long gone so far as I can tell, but there's sure to be more, and they'll be short-lived like the others.  I find it easier to just do it all myself if I really want it. 

Sure, as a means to an ends in some cases.  For instance; CAPI was my entry way to diy and  I still use my capi preamps all the time; making the kits a great investment.  But I learned a ton of q lot more from Mitsos 312 and even more so from Martin's 1290.
I got into diy pro audio gear to save a few bucks on some quality pieces. I stayed to learn about the things I was building.

Not an old-timer, but:  when I design something and go through the process of getting it working, I almost always learn something new.  When I do a clone or a kit, I generally don't.  Even though my own designs are often inferior quality, that knowledge is what's important to me.

When I was more interested in kits & clones, I also had more anxiety about just hacking stuff together - I felt like I needed a nice circuit board, BOM, and instructions to build something.  Primarily working on my own designs feels very liberating;  I can draw up a schematic on graph paper and throw something interesting together in an afternoon (attached is a picture of a AM modulator fx I built yesterday).  It's much more satisfying to me than building someone else's project.

It's pretty cheap now to just go out and buy usable preamps and converters, and I've not been in a mixing situation where I really needed a hardware processor that a cheap plugin couldn't replace.  My approach to recording isn't very concerned with gear, though, and I know other (more experienced) people approach it differently.


The great thing about this forum (obviously) is the vast wealth of knowledge;  using it as a source of kits, to me, feels like missing the educational potential.  But, I understand that's not everyone's goal.

Phrazemaster said:

I get the distinct feeling some old timer DIY guys are not so keen on the kits that have exploded the last few years. Just wondering if anyone wants to chime in with their feelings on this trend?

For myself, although I love the DIY spirit, were it not for the kits and the "hand holding" of the veterans, I would not have nearly the fun, or learning, that I've experienced. So I squarely sit in both camps, believing doing it yourself is awesome, but kits are great and can be a super tool as well.

What do you guys thing?

Mike

Click to expand...

Well I can share what one old-timer things...

Back in the day kits were a decent business, Heathkit grossed $100M at their peak. I helped them hit those numbers outfitting my bench with Heathkit scope, distortion analyzer, audio oscillator, etc. even a color TV set. I didn't build these to learn anything, I built kits to get a scope for only $500 and so on.

From the mid 70's to mid 80's I ran my own kit business (Phoenix Systems) where I designed and sold original products in kit form. The vast majority of my customers bought my kits for the same reason I bought Heathkits, to get a serviceable product for less money.  Heathkit set a high standard to meet in documentation but i did a fair job and even offered my customers a flat fee repair service so worst case my customer would get his working product after paying the extra $20 service fee.

By  the mid '80s I could see the writing on the wall when automation and off-shore manufacturing (Japan back then) allowed a name brand company to deliver a similar product to one of my kits for less than I could buy the parts for.  Take away the personal economic incentive and the kit business suffers hugely.

I do not have any philosophical objection to buying/selling kits, while I don't see the business model having legs in light of even more cost reductions in manufacturing.  That said I find it difficult to raise much enthusiasm for clones.  I did all original designs, often improving upon the chip maker's app notes.

What is the clone/kit buyer getting? A cheaper version of some classic legacy product, sound signature and all.  Perhaps that is the economic transaction?  If the IP (design) is unencumbered, and the design has merit for a mass market, it could be re-engineered for modern manufacturing and sold assembled for even less. I suspect this is a niche market where customers are buying some halo of similarity to the classic products.

JR

PS: Addressing the educational aspect of kits. Back during my kit selling days engineering students were often tasked with changing some existing design. To help sell more kits, I routinely published design equations to help these students "change" my designs.  8)

I will speak for the other side...

I am fully appreciative of the great talents that members of this forum have and are willing to pass on in a very altruistic manner.  It is truly remarkable, to me, when you are able to look at a schematic and state which preamp/ compressor/mic it comes from or stating change the capacitance on C26 to limit the low frequency roll off.

That degree of knowledge I do not have and am unlikely to ever have at my disposal.

Audio for me is a hobby and through the efforts of Jim Steiger, Max, Chunger and Gyraf I have been able to put together a 51X rack, U47 and several preamps at a substantial savings.  As is always the case....more are on the way!

While I do not appreciate what each resistor  does I have developed good soldering skills, wiring etiquite and an appreciation for the classic designs that are widely discussed throughout this forum. Along the way I am having a tremendous amount of fun and take pride that I can sing into an audio chain that, while not designed by myself, was put together by my own hands.

My friends and I have derived many hours of lasting memories with the equipment that has come from this forum.

So....for those of you that have produced kits (or partial kits) thank you very much for expanding my horizons and letting me utilize "classic" recording equipment. For those of you that are able to do it all on your own and understand the nuances of every component in the circuit...thank you very much for the education and your ongoing discussion in this, and other,  forums.

Due to both scenarios my life has been enriched.

Thank you all

Humbly
Mac

I find the title of the thread  not making sense.

Is building a kit not DIY?

Building a kit is DIY but only up up a point. It's really more the difference between paint by numbers and drawing a masterpiece on blank canvas. There are 50 shades of gray

I think it depends on what you are painting.

I do not think somehow re-inventing a wheel is superior to a one off-the-shelf because you did it on a blank canvas. As PRR once said there is nothing new in audio. Topologies have been matured to the stage that they are now fermenting.

The kits are great tools for experimenting too.  If one is so keen on picking his/her components, then there is nothing stops one from using 5% carbon resistors for a noisy circuit. But at least we'll all be comfortable knowing that the PCB will be a properly laid out one.

I appreciate kits for convenience, and don't buy them for learning but cost savings, which in NOT reflected in resale value
so as a means to an end , there are allot of great things out there [ as long as one doesn't over sell themselves , " I always
wanted one of those, oh it was half price but I don't use it anyway " ]  that makes them a good learning tool for cost savings.

I prefer complete kits as my parts buying often misses something or gets waay too big trying to take in account several projects
or I go for the price break on some parts but still end up needing something for the next project and have to order AGAIN .

now in the spirit of D.I.Y.  , If you like and want to understand and truly do it yourself , you probably would anyway.

Yeah one of the things I noticed is when I DIY it still costs a buttload of money, plus after I'm done it's a DIY job and not a brand name so resale is not what a commercial brand would command. That's the downside IMO. At least with commercial gear of high quality it tends to retain its value.

Only somewhere like here would guys appreciate it if I stated "Used genuine Carnhills" etc. And even then, you wonder, "did he know wtf he was doing? Does he know how to solder" etc...

I've built both, kits made it easy to put it all together as no part sourcing was needed, DIY came along after I learned which end of a resistor is polarized(yes I know what it says... Yes it was a joke). I have even picked up  not completed diy from other members. Some of those were wow others were WTF..... that being said DIY is not about cheaper, if you want cheap look elsewhere or buy a pre-made  diy project in the black market.  Resale value on DIY is usually only  good when you sell to other diy people. They understand what parts cost Most people do not.  Diy is about  learning.  It starts with going small and slow, a cable, here and there and then moving  onto bigger things, a di, and then finally onto rack gear and dreams of a console. So many have dreamt of making a console, I've only known a couple  members who have designed or made one.  Kits  are paint by numbers, there gets to a point where you can paint without the numbers.  Some will never progress beyond that out of choice. It's not rocket science, it's just audio.  Easy enough to weed out to knows from the don't knows.

> when I DIY it still costs a buttload of money

Amen!

Though "buttload" is relative. Electronics now are cheaper than ever (relative to gasoline, hamburger, etc). Mass-produced electronics are screaming bargains (a million-transistor CPU for $30?). Vacuum-tube prices run from cheap to real-cheap. (Specialty transformers are costly.) You guys building kits cheaper than bought preamps are perhaps comparing to very limited production "boutiques". A good mike preamp is $10. Plus connectors; and real-parts like connectors and case have become THE main cost of many boxes.

> do you see value in some of these kits?

Last kit I started, _I_ put in a dozen caps wrong. I saw I would have to take them all out and put the right caps there. I put the project aside, way way aside, until the need for that project had passed.

I do remember finding an un-built Heath 'scope at a tag-sale, building it (bless Heath's manuals), fixing a design cheapness, not needing a 4th 'scope, and mailing it to my nephews. Who I am told got some use from it.

I remember, way back when the '558 dual opamp was hot snot, a 7-band graphic EQ from John or a competitor. In that time and place, the bare board kit was FAR cheaper than the Soundcraft EQ that I really wanted. Boxing a naked graphic EQ is awkward.

Everybody has their own style, for each phase of life. A good musician should probably do kits, to leave more time for Making Music. Since I am not a good musician, I fill time thinking about the few things which have not been done in audio, making sketches, shopping parts. Only rarely is something really build-worthy.

Fer example. I have a clever idea for multiple remote controls for the cellar lights. Involves a poorly-documented behavior of relays. Circuit and wiring is simple. Parts-shopping comes to a price equal to a couple store-bought radio-switches, and I didn't price-out a box for my clever idea. So I probably won't do it unless I get a sudden urge to abuse a relay.

PRR said:

> when I DIY it still costs a buttload of money

Amen!

Though "buttload" is relative. Electronics now are cheaper than ever (relative to gasoline, hamburger, etc). Mass-produced electronics are screaming bargains (a million-transistor CPU for $30?). Vacuum-tube prices run from cheap to real-cheap. (Specialty transformers are costly.) You guys building kits cheaper than bought preamps are perhaps comparing to very limited production "boutiques". A good mike preamp is $10. Plus connectors; and real-parts like connectors and case have become THE main cost of many boxes.

> do you see value in some of these kits?

Last kit I started, _I_ put in a dozen caps wrong. I saw I would have to take them all out and put the right caps there. I put the project aside, way way aside, until the need for that project had passed.

I do remember finding an un-built Heath 'scope at a tag-sale, building it (bless Heath's manuals), fixing a design cheapness, not needing a 4th 'scope, and mailing it to my nephews. Who I am told got some use from it.

I remember, way back when the '558 dual opamp was hot snot, a 7-band graphic EQ from John or a competitor. In that time and place, the bare board kit was FAR cheaper than the Soundcraft EQ that I really wanted. Boxing a naked graphic EQ is awkward.

Click to expand...

I never did sell a GEQ kit. I did make a full parametric EQ back in the '70s. I still have the inductors laying around to make a 5 band GEQ from some old Pop'tronics kit I never melted solder on.

Everybody has their own style, for each phase of life. A good musician should probably do kits, to leave more time for Making Music. Since I am not a good musician, I fill time thinking about the few things which have not been done in audio, making sketches, shopping parts. Only rarely is something really build-worthy.

Fer example. I have a clever idea for multiple remote controls for the cellar lights. Involves a poorly-documented behavior of relays. Circuit and wiring is simple. Parts-shopping comes to a price equal to a couple store-bought radio-switches, and I didn't price-out a box for my clever idea. So I probably won't do it unless I get a sudden urge to abuse a relay.

Click to expand...

I find myself building stuff I can not buy... In some cases I find a commercial version later and while not exactly like what I did , most are better packaged and less likely to burn my house down.  Another consideration I don't want to leave behind a house that requires a Mr Wizard to understand and and EE to maintain.

Sometimes after investing time and  treasure bringing some obscure product to life I find out why I could not find a commercial version.  : One recent failure was my Peltier crock pot. the concept was clever to cook food while cooling my kitchen. After too much time and money (for parts) It just wasn't a very good crock pot or room cooler.

Peltier devices are great for cooling small masses, for heating they are actually a little more efficient as they throw off heat in the process of moving heat, which can be used to heat the meat, but the Peltier devices do not tolerate very high temperature , certainly not high enough for an effective  cooker. (lesson learned).

JR