Large Toroidal Transformers in Series

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thermionic

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
1,671
Hi,

For quite a while I have been trying to figure out a cost-effective way to minimise mechanical vibration in my power amp transformers. I have tried different makers and it seems that, unless you want to spend a lot of money on an artisan specialist toroidal, they all have varying levels of (annoying) mechanical hum. Even the potted, supposed 'audio grade' (1.5KVA) TFs I have here start to resonate after being on for an hr or so.

I have read that in 110v countries, a way around this is to buy a 220v transformer and run it at half voltage. Being in the UK I have a 240v primary in all my toroidals. Which makes me wonder, what if I use a pair in series, effectively running their primaries at half design voltage? I realise that there is a caveat if I load the secondaries hard, but there is no chance of this as the TFs are vastly overrated (I got a deal on 1KVa and 1.5KVa - for my personal setup I doubt I'll be using a fraction of the potential current they can give).

Do you think running TFs in series at half their primary rating will keep mechanical hum at bay? They will be used with current-limiting soft-start circuits and DC-Blocking filters.

TIA.
 
110V countries are running on 60Hz, 220V is 50Hz.
A 60Hz transformer can be smaller.

This is why some older 110V gear didn't work well in 220V countries,
while I never heard of a problem the other way around.

So it it not the voltage, it is the frequency.
 
'Extreme remedies' - I agree. However, the only firm I trust to make me a custom TF charges around 3 to 4 times what I pay for an off-the-shelf TF, I have a bunch of brand new commercial-grade TFs in the cupboard which I got for next to nothing - and the amps are for my own use ( I would pony up for a custom one were the amp for a client).
 
Above 1KVA, 50Hz and 60Hz design gets to be about the same.

And he would likely buy 115V/230V 50/60Hz parts anyway.
 
In my "commercial" Gyraf units, I simply specify power transformers for 70% primary flux - i.e. something like a 300V:20V transformer that gives 15V when run from 230V and so on.

This minimizes stress in core field - the "standard" designs are aimed at getting absolutely most bang-for-the-buck for a given size.

Not only does this reduce mechanical noise considerably, but also greatly reduces radiated magnetic stray field and gives less harmonics in secondary voltage under heavy load.

Only drawback is slightly increased mechanical size.

Jakob E.
 
is it the transformer itself or the chassis acting as a speaker cone?

if the latter you could mount the xfmr on a shock mounted plate inside the chassis,

this might also keep flux out of the main chassis where it could get coupled to the circuit and show up as hum,
 
The potted 1.5KVA (supposed 'audio grade') transformer was originally mounted on a rubber disc. I then mounted it onto a thick sheet of 'Sorbothane'. I have  a pair of them. They seem to be quiet for an hr or so, then the hum starts. I'm pretty sure it's coming directly from the TF.

The 1KVA 'commercial grade' TF (I have several, but have only tried one) tends to start humming sooner - usually after a few mins. I haven't experimented with anti-vibration mounting.

Up until around 10 yrs ago I used to buy 'Antrim' toroidals. They were mechanically silent (I sold one a while back on diyaudio - it sold in minutes). One of the honchos from Antrim set up his own company, where he makes custom toroidals to order. My friend downstairs buys loads from him (I put him onto the firm). They are silent. I do not know how they do it. But I do know how expensive they are! I've ordered their TFs for clients. Considering I have about 7 TFs to play around with for my own amps I'm going to try the series method and see how it works (will try them on a variac at half voltage first to be sure).

Jakob makes a very good point. That's a trade secret - careful Mr Gyraf!
 
thermionic said:
The potted 1.5KVA (supposed 'audio grade') transformer was originally mounted on a rubber disc. I then mounted it onto a thick sheet of 'Sorbothane'. I have  a pair of them. They seem to be quiet for an hr or so, then the hum starts. I'm pretty sure it's coming directly from the TF.

Maybe you have problem with the DC in the power grid. You can try a simple DC filter as Bryston uses in power amps.
http://www.bryston.com/PDF/Schematics/4BSST2_SCHEMATICS.pdf
 
here is a blurb on an industrial transformer>

"When loaded the transformer becomes more of a resistive loan ( power factor of 1). so the forces in the core are more uniform, the eddy currents are in step with the magnetic fields and cancel. When unloaded the transformer is much more of an inductive load meaning the field strength is maximum when there is no current,... if a capacitor is used for phase shift such as for mercury lamps, operating off a single phase supply, this means that the two phases are much less evenly distributed so that the collapsing magnetic fields react more strongly to the eddy currents which are higher because of the different core material, and smaller size and the welds accross the laminations. Also the power waveforms of the AC (from the power company) may be more flattened on top, and bottom due to all the clipping from surge protectors which result in differential spikes being created by the unloaded, inductive transformers.

Lots of new high powered Transformers buzz like the Dickens,especially unloaded, I believe these are the reasons."
 
I had one of the amps on last night for an hour (1.5KVA potted toroidal). It was totally silent. This suggests:

a) Line Voltage sag (winter eve - neighbours have heating etc on)

b) DC level low (I need to measure this - but am skeptical that DC is responsible for TF noise as so many 'respected' hifi OEMs make amps which are afflicted)

c) Temperature. Considering the TF is rated at 1.5KVA (240v Primary - 55-0-55 sec) and the amp idles @ 600mA quiescent bias, I doubt it's getting very warm.

600mA is the max my heatsinks will allow. I will have to try a dummy load and oscillator to see if loading is responsible (thanks for link, CJ), but this is tricky as the hum is intermittent.

Either way, my feeling is that overrating the voltage a-la Gyraf, or using 2 toroidals (at the risk of being mocked by JR) will cure the hum.
 
Thanks. The potted ones hummed at my old place, which is the other side of London. So, unless London power in general has an issue, methinks it's the TF (in keeping with Jakob's sentiment - or maybe Danish power is also bad :- ). I don't think toroid OEMs consider mechanical noise unless it's for about 0.1% of the market, in which case you have to go to a specialist winder such as Mr T (who does a lovely job, but your accountant knows about it).  This is probably particularly true now, where SMPS are so ubiquitous.

Running a pair of cheap TFs at half voltage strikes me as an inelegant, but potentially workable method. Will try with a variac and report back.
 
thermionic said:
Either way, my feeling is that overrating the voltage a-la Gyraf, or using 2 toroidals (at the risk of being mocked by JR) will cure the hum.
For a one-off, do what works.

For production be more sensible.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
thermionic said:
Either way, my feeling is that overrating the voltage a-la Gyraf, or using 2 toroidals (at the risk of being mocked by JR) will cure the hum.
For a one-off, do what works.

For production be more sensible.

JR

This is a sentiment that I know painfully well. 'Engineering' and 'production engineering' aren't the same thing. Having said that, if you compare the prices of some of the toroids in the Rapid catalogue here (I assume Chinese-made), you'll note that they are often 2-3 times less costly than a 'boutique' toroid that's been made for audio. You could argue that, assuming the cheap toroidal is reliable (TFs are just about the most reliable item you can buy if you don't abuse them in my experience), running 2 TFs well under their design maximum might even be quieter and more reliable than a single one. But elegant, maybe not ;-)
 
thermionic said:
JohnRoberts said:
thermionic said:
Either way, my feeling is that overrating the voltage a-la Gyraf, or using 2 toroidals (at the risk of being mocked by JR) will cure the hum.
For a one-off, do what works.

For production be more sensible.

JR

This is a sentiment that I know painfully well. 'Engineering' and 'production engineering' aren't the same thing. Having said that, if you compare the prices of some of the toroids in the Rapid catalogue here (I assume Chinese-made), you'll note that they are often 2-3 times less costly than a 'boutique' toroid that's been made for audio. You could argue that, assuming the cheap toroidal is reliable (TFs are just about the most reliable item you can buy if you don't abuse them in my experience), running 2 TFs well under their design maximum might even be quieter and more reliable than a single one. But elegant, maybe not ;-)

And at this point still hypothetical(?)... Confirm that it works or not, before we apply the sharp pencils.

If it works using cheap off the shelf parts, the extra transformer weight could be a selling feature.  ;D (Who pays shipping costs?)

Years ago when I was a product manager trying to merchandise some huge, heavy, old school low technology class AB power amps. I flipped the elephant in the room into being a feature and advertised the heavy transformer and heat sinks as if they were a positive (silk purse from a sow's ear, lipstick on a pig, etc). .

JR
 
> I don't think toroid OEMs consider mechanical noise

In fact above 100KVA or 1MVA, magnetostrictive acoustic hum gets large, and there is (USA) industry standard on maximum reasonable acoustic hum.

I suspect what you are hearing is not magnetostrictive hum, but loose windings. The copper heats more than the core, wire expands in length, the in-built tension lessens. When tension and friction becomes less than the electromagnetic mechanical force of the current, wire moves on each cycle. Well-soaked potting would stop this. (Some potting may be very superficial.)
 
yes they use air dry epoxy now days instead of varnish, so sometimes units get dipped cold,

when you dip hot, liquid gets thinner and gets into winds,

small wire needs vacuum impreg or hot wax,

large wires will allow varnish into voids easily,

line/mic audio transformers usually don't buzz,  not enuff mechanical force,  which is a function of amp turns,  F=1.2566 N I,
H is F/ mag length, like taking a slice of the core and seeing the concentration,

you might be able to stop buzzing by re-shiming the coil, get it hot and pound some thin strips of wood or glastic (fiberglass + plastic) this will do two things, tighten the coil/core assy and stretch the windings a bit, don't want to break winds,  sand the edge to form a wedge,

varnish tanks dangerous when you pull -28, technology in interesting, when you pull a vacuum on a submerged coil, the air bubbles between the copper expand, when you release vacuum, they contract, creating little vacuums which suck the varnish into the voids,

Reuben Lee>

" After a coil is wound the best practice is to impregnate it in some sort of insulating liquid which hardens after filling. This is done for several reasons. First, it protects the wire from movement and possible mechanical damage. Second, it prevents the entrance of moisture and foreign matter which might corrode the wire or cause insulation deterioration. Third, it increases the dielectric strength of fibrous insulating materials. Fourth, it assists in heat dissipation from the coil. Single-layer coils may be dipped in the liquid, drained, and dried, but deeper, thicker coils require the use of vacuum to remove air from the coil and admit the liquid to all parts of the interior. The best mechanical result is obtained when coils are assembled with cores before treatment.

Insulation is considered to be impregnated when a suitable substance replaces the air between its fibers, even if this substance does not completely fill the spaces between the insulated conductors.

Coils having little or no temperature rise in normal use are impregnated with chemically neutral mineral wax. The wax is melted in a sealed tank and is drawn into another tank in which preheated coils have been placed, and a vacuum is maintained. Coils are removed from the tank, drained, and allowed to cool. Wax treatment provides good dielectric qualities and moisture protection. It is a quick, simple process.

Transformers having operating temperatures of 65°C or higher are impregnated with varnish. Varnish of good grade and close control is essential to achieve thorough filling and dry coils after impregnation. Oleoresinous varnishes, which polymerize to a hard state by baking, are notably useful for the purpose. A high degree of vacuum, fresh varnish, and accurate baking temperature control are necessary for good results. Plasticizers are sometimes added to the varnish to prevent brittleness in finished coils. Varnish may attack wire enamel (which itself is a kind of varnish), and so the soaking and baking time periods must be regulated carefully.

Varnishes for impregnation of electrical coils have until lately been diluted by solvents to lower the viscosity so as to permit full penetration of the windings. When the coils are baked, the varnish dries and the solvent is driven off. The drying leaves very small holes through which moisture can penetrate and in which corona may form. Eventually, the insulation deteriorates. It is, therefore, necessary to allow large clearances for high voltages or to immerse the coils in oil. Either of these alternatives increases the size of a high-voltage transformer in relation to that of a low-voltage transformer. For this reason, solventless resins have come into use as filling compounds for dry-type coils. They are known by trade names such as Fosterite, Para-plex, and Stypol. These resins have the advantage of changing from a liquid to a solid state by heat polymerization, so that small holes formed by drying of the solvent are eliminated. Filling of the coil may be accomplished by casting the transformer in a mold, or by encapsulation. Encapsulation is readily adapted to irregular coil surfaces and is accomplished by a leak-proof coat before filling. In either process, a good vacuum is necessary to insure complete filling.

Silicone materials are moisture-resistant. Basic insulation should be inorganic, or silicone-treated cloth, tape, laminated sheets, and tubes. Through the use of silicones, some transformers may be designed to have very small dimensions for their ratings. This may be achieved most successfully if the coil insulation comprises only silicone or inorganic materials, including impregnation with silicone varnish. Dielectric strength of silicones is about the same as class A materials. Hence the thickness of silicone coil insulation is similar to that for organic materials.

Continual development improves all classes of insulation; present A, B, and H insulation classes may be superseded eventually by new classes based entirely on functional evaluation. Life tests have been proposed(1) which classify a transformer according to its ability to withstand the effects of voltage, moisture, and vibration, as well as temperature.

In encased high-voltage units, air around the coils, bushings, and leads is especially subject to the formation of corona. To reduce this tendency, the containers are filled with asphaltic compound which replaces the air with solid, non-ionizing material. A similar compound is often used to fill containers of low-voltage transformers to avoid the need for mechanically fastening the core to the case. This is a permissible practice if the melting point of the compound is higher than the highest operating temperature and if its cracking point is below the lowest operating temperature.

 
PRR said:
> I don't think toroid OEMs consider mechanical noise

In fact above 100KVA or 1MVA, magnetostrictive acoustic hum gets large, and there is (USA) industry standard on maximum reasonable acoustic hum.

I suspect what you are hearing is not magnetostrictive hum, but loose windings. The copper heats more than the core, wire expands in length, the in-built tension lessens. When tension and friction becomes less than the electromagnetic mechanical force of the current, wire moves on each cycle. Well-soaked potting would stop this. (Some potting may be very superficial.)

The amp was on for an hr or so last night. It was dead quiet for the first 10-20 mins, then hummed for about 10 minutes and then went quiet. Is intermittent humming in keeping with your hypothesis?

Either way, once I get a chance to lug my variac home from work and try the amp on lower voltage, I will know more. Thanks to all for your input.

Edit - the intermittent nature of the humming tends to rule out temperature-related factors in my opinion. I'm thinking this is more likely to be line voltage and / or DC-related.
 
> rule out temperature-related factors in my opinion

IMHO: not proven.

My 1996 mini-van is a rattle-trap. Being Honda, it is motorcycle-like structure with various panels nailed-on to make it more car-like. ALL these panels now buzz as the engine RPM rises.

Surely it did not do that new(?).

And my impression is that some of these buzzes decreased in its second decade.

Assume engine vibration is 0.010" amplitude.

When the screw or clip is new, there is 0.000,0" clearance, panel can not slam-slam, buzz is zero.

As the screw or clip works loose, clearance increases to 0.010", panel slam-slams, buzz is maximum.

As the screw or clip works even looser, clearance increases to 0.100", panel kinda floats in the middle, no hard contact either way, buzz is milder.

So your temperature run may pass from tight, to loose, to real-loose, with buzz only in a specific range.

But I am not at all sure what your buzz is.

A stethoscope (foot of lawnmower fuel line) might gain more information about where the buzz happens.
__________________________________

> line/mic audio transformers usually don't buzz

Yes; but I have observed (you too?) that big tube power amps tested on dummy-load (silent) will "sing" in the 1KHz-6KHz range. I don't need to look at the HP 200AB (or ask Kenneth) to know what the frequency is.

I would assume they sing deeper, but the small size and amplitude does not couple into air so well. A 4-inch thing is a fine squawker but a poor woofer.

I would assume little audio iron does too. But the level is 40dB lower; also the case is smaller yet. As a 100-Watt OT's sing is not loud, 40dB lower would be below background noise in most spaces.
 
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