Another Peltier fail....

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JohnRoberts

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I am a sucker for obscure technology and recently when looking for a smaller, quieter, dehumidifier, I found a Peltier based unit. This should surely be quieter than the old compressor based de-humidifier.

Well it was pretty quiet (I could sleep with it running) but too wimpy to keep even my bedroom humidity under control running 24x7. Re-reading the spec they said 2,200 cu foot, most are specified to cover square feet, but my bedroom is less than that volume,

maybe good for a closet or pantry.... certainly not even modest residential use.

Oh well... caveat emptor...

JR 
 
jackies said:
Yeah, Peltiers are pretty awesome, except weak and inefficient.

Yup. pretty slick. For cooking I didn't care about efficiency since waste heat helps the cause, but the hot side can't really get all that hot.  :-[

For the dehumidifier, I suspect they cheaped out on the number of devices. Mine was only consuming something like 70W total, counting the fan and electronics, maybe one P-device.

JR
 
> they said 2,200 cu foot

So, 16'x16'x8'. Pretty good bedroom.

I had a Peltier refrigerator and it was a wimp. It could keep cold food cool from morning to lunch, and hold cold soda drinkably cool forever, but wasn't willing to cool room-temp food in real time.

I'm guessing the 2,200cf rating applies in drier climes than Mississippi. (Say Needles Calif; but dehumidifiers in Needles is like iceboxes to Eskimos.)

And of course a cubic-foot rating (or square feet ass-uming a standard height) is not the right rating. If the room is air/damp-tight, any dehum will remove the moisture in the air eventually. But in real life dampness comes into our rooms. For same construction and exposure, a 16'x16' room will leak less than a 4'x68' hallway. A basement like mine with wet soil damping-in through concrete is a much tougher problem than above-ground with vapor barrier. OTOH a high-use shower room stays damp.

Pints/day is a common and ultimately useful rating. You have to run a while and dump a few buckets to figure what Pt/Day your space really wants. However some online reviews of Peltiers mention 100mL/day (~~0.2Pt/Day), which is far short of the 2Pt/Day-5Pt/Day of a freon machine.

Agree that you do not want my 1999 Sears dehum in your bedroom. If I am doing fine work down cellar I turn-off that racket. The 2014 machine I got for back-up is a trace quieter but I'd demand real benefits before I would sleep with it. And my impression is that these machines get noisier with age/vibration.

Obviously for a BED-room you could run a freon machine when not sleeping. Door must stay shut both day and night (which will seem wrong if you have been leaving it open to let it air). Sometimes the practical answer is to churn enough freon to de-damp the whole house.

My electric bill drops significantly in October when the cellar finally gets dry enough for the dehumidifier to stop for weeks at a time.

I'd assume you have no active leaks (roof or pipes) and that if you shower a lot you have a fan to take the bulk of the damp out. I do understand it may just be Mississippi. (Like NJ, only closer to the Gulf, so a longer damp season.)

We can trade. Today I have 34% RH in the main living space. Send me half your humidity, we'll both be 50%-60%.
 
PRR said:
> they said 2,200 cu foot

So, 16'x16'x8'. Pretty good bedroom.

I had a Peltier refrigerator and it was a wimp. It could keep cold food cool from morning to lunch, and hold cold soda drinkably cool forever, but wasn't willing to cool room-temp food in real time.

I'm guessing the 2,200cf rating applies in drier climes than Mississippi. (Say Needles Calif; but dehumidifiers in Needles is like iceboxes to Eskimos.)
Exactly... the dehumidifier for geeks that don't have a humidity problem.
And of course a cubic-foot rating (or square feet ass-uming a standard height) is not the right rating. If the room is air/damp-tight, any dehum will remove the moisture in the air eventually. But in real life dampness comes into our rooms. For same construction and exposure, a 16'x16' room will leak less than a 4'x68' hallway. A basement like mine with wet soil damping-in through concrete is a much tougher problem than above-ground with vapor barrier. OTOH a high-use shower room stays damp.
One thing I am still trying to suss out is I thought my house was pretty air tight, I've spent the last few years double insulating windows and sealing air leaks. They become pretty obvious in the winter.  My house appears to be less water tight than air tight. Indoor humidity seems to be more influenced by weather than I expected.
Pints/day is a common and ultimately useful rating. You have to run a while and dump a few buckets to figure what Pt/Day your space really wants. However some online reviews of Peltiers mention 100mL/day (~~0.2Pt/Day), which is far short of the 2Pt/Day-5Pt/Day of a freon machine.
I've been running a real dehumidifier for several months now and I find it interesting how much water I pull out of the air every day.  I run it in the large living room at night, and in my bedroom during daytime hours. I bought two temp/RH meters, one for each area and am slowly getting a feel for RH and how temp affects that. The relationship for humidity vs temp seems pretty non-linear, and this gets confused as the dehumidifiers also add heat into the room. Not a bad thing for winter months, not so good in the summer.

My bedroom can vary from mid 40's RH when I retire, to up near 60RH in the morning... Weather impacts this a bunch. Warmer nights I apparently perspire, cooler nights not as much, while my respiration also adds moisture to the relatively small room, but perspiration seems more significant that respiration. . 
Agree that you do not want my 1999 Sears dehum in your bedroom. If I am doing fine work down cellar I turn-off that racket. The 2014 machine I got for back-up is a trace quieter but I'd demand real benefits before I would sleep with it. And my impression is that these machines get noisier with age/vibration.
yup tried it and sleeping with the big dog machine is unacceptable... The Peltier machine was quiet enough but not worth the bother.
Obviously for a BED-room you could run a freon machine when not sleeping. Door must stay shut both day and night (which will seem wrong if you have been leaving it open to let it air). Sometimes the practical answer is to churn enough freon to de-damp the whole house.
I've tried locating the dehumidifier centrally and using a fan to circulate the air, but that doesn't work as well as half a day in each room. I pulled a muscle in my back trying to lift and carry it back and forth. It has wheels but doesn't roll that well.
My electric bill drops significantly in October when the cellar finally gets dry enough for the dehumidifier to stop for weeks at a time.

I'd assume you have no active leaks (roof or pipes) and that if you shower a lot you have a fan to take the bulk of the damp out. I do understand it may just be Mississippi. (Like NJ, only closer to the Gulf, so a longer damp season.)
yes serious damp season here...November and still humid, I went ahead and ordered a second big dog humidifier (50 pt/day). The new plan is to leave one in the bedroom I will run during daytime and a second I run in the main room that I run at night. I am waiting for actual cold weather to set in (soon) then I can run the dehumidifiers as needed. I'm happy just to get the house below 50 RH most of the time. <50RH  will keep mold and dust mites, and other nasty stuff in check.
We can trade. Today I have 34% RH in the main living space. Send me half your humidity, we'll both be 50%-60%.
Outside humidity today is only 71% but rain forecast for tomorrow.

I have been thinking about alternate uses for all the free water I pull from the air... I could use for houseplants if I had any... :eek: Probably enough to brew beer with...  Hickory air stout.  8)  ewww.  :(

JR
 
Another tidbit about marginal humidity changes, my dehumidifier has a defrost mode for when the cooling element freezes up... While the dehumidifier is defrosting my room humidity meter can jump 5 points or so. This is a combination of the dehumidifier blowing moist air, and that moist air being cool rather than warm. For RH to be that sensitive in the margin suggests it doesn't take much moisture to change things,

JR

PS: I remember as a kid growing up in NJ, we had metal water evaporators that would hang on the steam radiators and help raise the indoor humidity as long as we kept water in them. Not necessary in MS. 
 
"" <50RH  will keep mold and dust mites, and other nasty stuff in check.

?? My goal in the cellar is 65%. Mold becomes a real no-problem. Have not inventoried my dust-mites, which I agree would be an issue in a living space.

> Indoor humidity seems to be more influenced by weather than I expected.

Indoor air IS outdoor air. Even a Canada-tight house has several air-changes a day.

Bring your house up here. When it's blowing 0 deg, you'll find your air leaks. Actually it takes a while, because each improvement makes a lesser level of leaks dominant.

Here/now is 100% RH outside (at the airport), 35% inside. Same air and water, same absolute humidity, but 35 degrees warmer. Actually, looking at psychrometric chart, that stuff outside could be warmed-up a dozen degrees before it came off 100% RH, but another 25-30 deg F makes it 35% RH.

> mid 40's RH when I retire, to up near 60RH in the morning

What is the temperature drop? If not small, it may just be RH going up as temperature goes down. (But 15 points overnight does sound large.)

In your situation, more heat may be part of the answer. RH will go down. Heaters are mostly more efficient than freon machines. If there is an alternate to electric heat, the fuel is cheaper too.

In my situation, the temperature would be very-nice if it were not so dry. We live 1/8" off the edge of the Comfort Zone on a temp/humid chart. We do have water pans at most hot air registers, but without BIG input of BTU they are only good for a few points. Humidifier on the furnace is common, and commonly failed; and always increases the BTU consumption to get in the Zone (no free lunch, no free warm room).

How cheap and how cool is your tap water? My well water can be frigid. Pipes sweat (not much with PEX). If I ran the well water through a radiator and blew it, I think it would be a fair dehumidifier. However well water is ultimately expensive. And most towns gave up unmetered water a long time ago.
 
JohnRoberts said:
I have been thinking about alternate uses for all the free water I pull from the air... I could use for houseplants if I had any... :eek: Probably enough to brew beer with...  Hickory air stout.  8)  ewww.  :(

JR
I have a dehum in my basement room where I stash my guitars; most of the water is drained to waste but still I can fill about three gallons a week in cans. I use it for washer-fluid. I also use it to fill the steam cleaner.
But I recently bought a new smoothing iron and they clearly warn off against the use of dehum water with it. I wonder why...
 
abbey road d enfer said:
JohnRoberts said:
I have been thinking about alternate uses for all the free water I pull from the air... I could use for houseplants if I had any... :eek: Probably enough to brew beer with...  Hickory air stout.  8)  ewww.  :(

JR
I have a dehum in my basement room where I stash my guitars; most of the water is drained to waste but still I can fill about three gallons a week in cans. I use it for washer-fluid. I also use it to fill the steam cleaner.
But I recently bought a new smoothing iron and they clearly warn off against the use of dehum water with it. I wonder why...
I was joking about using the de-humidifier water... In theory it should be OK, it probably picks up dust from the room, even though my de-humidifier has a dust filter, I've seen stuff in the water. At one point back in the early days I even had mold trying to grow in the water tank (always wet), but since I cleaned it with soap and dried out my living space the mold has stayed away.
======
OK, EPA warns that stagnant condensate water can harbor biologic contaminants (I concur). Also lead and other metal residue from the condenser and internal components, so not suitable for beer brewing.

JR
 
PRR said:
"" <50RH  will keep mold and dust mites, and other nasty stuff in check.

?? My goal in the cellar is 65%. Mold becomes a real no-problem. Have not inventoried my dust-mites, which I agree would be an issue in a living space.

> Indoor humidity seems to be more influenced by weather than I expected.

Indoor air IS outdoor air. Even a Canada-tight house has several air-changes a day.
It doesn't get Maine cold here, but cold enough that I can find the air leaks on cold nights when the wind is blowing.
Bring your house up here. When it's blowing 0 deg, you'll find your air leaks. Actually it takes a while, because each improvement makes a lesser level of leaks dominant.
I have added an extra layer of storm windows (on the inside), so my house is pretty tight (air) but I noticed just the other day that I had left my kitchen door open, relying upon just the storm door to close off the space, The storm door is clearly not air tight and surely allows in moisture.
Here/now is 100% RH outside (at the airport), 35% inside. Same air and water, same absolute humidity, but 35 degrees warmer. Actually, looking at psychrometric chart, that stuff outside could be warmed-up a dozen degrees before it came off 100% RH, but another 25-30 deg F makes it 35% RH.

> mid 40's RH when I retire, to up near 60RH in the morning

What is the temperature drop? If not small, it may just be RH going up as temperature goes down. (But 15 points overnight does sound large.)
Yup, some of that is temperature. The low-mid 40s is after the de-humidifer was running all day. The morning number is significantly cooler but regulated by thermostat. I also notice that the temp of my humidity meter over on my dresser is several degrees cooler than over by the thermostat, so air movement at night is pretty stagnant.
In your situation, more heat may be part of the answer. RH will go down. Heaters are mostly more efficient than freon machines. If there is an alternate to electric heat, the fuel is cheaper too.
Actually my bedroom is part of my ongoing energy saving experiment. I use a TOD thermostat that only heats the bedroom at night when I'm sleeping. Winter daytime temps in the bed room can drop down into the 50s.  Similarly I only heat my main room in the day time when I am working in it. I am still waiting for winter to kick in here but about two weeks ago we had an overnight temp down in the 20's and my main room was 59 degrees that morning before I turned on the heat.

I have mold pretty much under control now after pulling so much water out of the space, but now I am concerned about the pattern of heating my bedroom at night, so the air holds more moisture, then supplying that moisture by breathing and being human. When the heat turns off in the morning, that 55-60- morning RH  would shoot up as temperature drops perhaps dropping below that rooms local dew point, allowing moisture to precipitate out and support new mold growth.

I am still waiting for winter temps to set in  so I can determine the new pattern. On cold mornings, the morning bedroom RH is lower (<50), my suspicion is on cold nights I do not perspire like during warm weather. Even a 50RH at 70' could be too high after room cools down to 50'.

I suspect most cost effective would be to run the dehumidifier with the control set to maintain <50 RH. It will do this by a combination of heating the air and pulling moisture from the air. I suspect this will be cheaper that heating the room to 70'  24x7.
In my situation, the temperature would be very-nice if it were not so dry. We live 1/8" off the edge of the Comfort Zone on a temp/humid chart. We do have water pans at most hot air registers, but without BIG input of BTU they are only good for a few points. Humidifier on the furnace is common, and commonly failed; and always increases the BTU consumption to get in the Zone (no free lunch, no free warm room).

How cheap and how cool is your tap water? My well water can be frigid. Pipes sweat (not much with PEX). If I ran the well water through a radiator and blew it, I think it would be a fair dehumidifier. However well water is ultimately expensive. And most towns gave up unmetered water a long time ago.
Yup I pay for my water... I don't use enough normally to pull much heat/cold from it 600-900 gallons a month.

I am optimistic that drier winter months may result in only needing to run the de-humidifiers a few hours a day... still figuring out my personal patterns/cycles  for this.. When outdoor temps fall to the 40-50s the outdoor air will be a bunch drier. 

JR
 
I'm seeing a pretty strong indoor RH correlation with outdoor temps.

I broke down and bought another big dog dehumidifier. (now rocking 3 of them, surely overkill).

I found this great website calculator that correlates temp with RH and dewpoint  with extra advice about mold/mildew and even metal rusting.  http://www.dpcalc.org/

From studying the I was targeting a lower than needed RH but maintaining reasonable RH keeps dewpoint well under even my night time low temps.

The peltier dehumidifier is not very effective but these days lives in my small bathroom, where it barely keeps up with me brushing my teeth. I took a shower this morning and the RH in there is still a little elevated.  ::)

In the christmas spirit I bought myself a second real dehumidifier.  This one a real name brand Frigidare marked down for mercenary monday... Apparently Dec is a good month to shop for dehumidifiers.. (I need to look at zero turn mowers now.. I think I'm the last homeowner in MS without one).

I now have the luxury of two real dehumidifiers so I no longer have to hump the heavy appliance back and forth between my bedroom for daytime duty and main room for night time duty.

I'm expecting pretty easy humidity control for the rest of the winter.  The real test will come next summer when the humidity returns in ernest.

I need to check the specs and just may be perception but the better frigidaire seems to heat the room less while removing humidity than the no-name dehumidifier.  And next summer I can use the new improved dew point chart to target more realistic RH targets.

JR
 
  I have quite high humidity here. Not really a problem for me, I kind of like it, I do have a bad time when it's too dry.

  In winter my heater keeps the room dry enough and in summer the AC does the job, as I said usually the problem is too dry for me, AC and heater dry quite a bit already.

  For constant inside temp (22ºC?) and constant outside RH (100% ?) you can find a direct correlation between outside temp and inside RH, same air, different temps. I guess that web you quoted does the job.

  I've thought about a dehumidifier for drying things in winter, when heat drying is a problem. I've thought about a peltier inside a sealed bag big enough to hang a few t-shirts, some recirculation of air, maybe targeting 40ºC inside (like a hot summer day) even without taking water out that would give a very low RH already, still would be nice to condensate the water to make things faster.

  The other option would be a vacuum chamber, which would be nice to have for when you drop the cellphone in some water but I guess it wouldn't be very efficient drying t-shirts.

JS
 
joaquins said:
  The other option would be a vacuum chamber, which would be nice to have for when you drop the cellphone in some water but I guess it wouldn't be very efficient drying t-shirts.

Are you sure everything in your consumer level cellphone is rated down to zero-atmospheres? No bleeding electrolytic cap seals from air bubbles pushing out? Chips with airspace above the die not popping apart? Just saying.

A seriously large vacuum rated bell jar has always been on my wish list.

So many uses, pulling entrapped air bubbles out of two-part epoxy mixes, potting something like a guitar pickup, re-lubricating a dry sealed bearing race, vacuum-dried beef/turkey/venison  jerkey.... one of these days....

Perhaps one of those thick greenish glass covers that you used to see in diners on the counter, covering the remaining slices of pecan pie?

Wait a minute now, CRTs are obviously vacuum rated, so break the nipple off an old large TV tube at the socket to remove the vacuum safely to work on it, diamond saw or hotwire cut it into a suitable size chamber... hmmm, 27" diagonal bell jar.

Presently, my own playing with vacuum stuff here is limited to liquids in flasks, attached is old brake fluid having the moisture pulled out at room temperature at 8.3mm vacuum, to use as flushing fluid. The moisture is happily boiling out. At 16 bucks a gallon, I'll reuse it to flush out the old.

Change your brake fluid lately?

Gene
 

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joaquins said:
  I've thought about a dehumidifier for drying things in winter, when heat drying is a problem. I've thought about a peltier inside a sealed bag big enough to hang a few t-shirts, some recirculation of air, maybe targeting 40ºC inside (like a hot summer day) even without taking water out that would give a very low RH already, still would be nice to condensate the water to make things faster.


JS
My small Peltier dehumidifier could just about be stuck inside a garment bag to dry out a shirt or two, but it only pulls 28 ounces a day of water, so  seriously wet clothes could take a few days.

JR
 
Gene Pink said:
A seriously large vacuum rated bell jar has always been on my wish list.


Gene

Don't put your cat inside the bell jar...  :eek:

I haven't seen a vacuum rig since high school (physics class). We did the classic half inflated ballon inside, then blew it up by sucking the air out of the jar, boiling cold water, etc.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
Don't put your cat inside the bell jar...  :eek:
I'm guessing there might be a story here.

John, is there something you would like to share with the rest of the class?


"In a vacuum, no one can hear you meow."

Gene
 
Gene Pink said:
JohnRoberts said:
Don't put your cat inside the bell jar...  :eek:
I'm guessing there might be a story here.

John, is there something you would like to share with the rest of the class?


"In a vacuum, no one can hear you meow."

Gene
I could nominate some local cats for the experiment, my neighbor has about 10, and they spread out, some onto my property... My car has muddy cat prints on the hood and roof from F'n cats sleeping on top of my car.  :mad:
-------
The experiment is inadequately controlled for only a single variable. Of course you can't hear the cat meow, after you evacuate the bell jar, but is it because there is no air to transmit the sound?  or because the cat is dead? I suspect the experiment is only partially conclusive... (the cat will surely die and dead cats don't meow).  ;D

For the classic experiment we used a doorbell ringer inside the bell jar.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
I could nominate some local cats for the experiment, my neighbor has about 10, and they spread out, some onto my property... My car has muddy cat prints on the hood and roof from F'n cats sleeping on top of my car.  :mad:

Yeah, I have the same neighbor, feeds all the feral cats. Looking at the shiny side of life, it has been 15 years since I have seen  evidence of rodentia around here, when I had to rewire a chewed-through wiring harness under the hood on an International Harvester step van within biting reach of a nest. That may sound like an easy job until you realize that IH must have got a deal on green wire, every wire was green and numbered only on the ends.  That took a while to ring out, but not too bad,  all 1972 type stuff.

Back up north, ever start your car on a cold morning, hear a screech/hiss, and see a cat that was sleeping under the warm hood run away with a bloody stump where there used to be a tail? Yeah people, it happens, don't "puss" out over it.

The experiment is inadequately controlled for only a single variable. Of course you can't hear the cat meow, after you evacuate the bell jar, but is it because there is no air to transmit the sound?  or because the cat is dead? I suspect the experiment is only partially conclusive... (the cat will surely die and dead cats don't meow).  ;D

I'm not sure, perhaps we should consult with  Schrödinger about this. He would know what to do, or he wouldn't.

Gene
 

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