Brexit

We'll adapt to Oirish.

JohnRoberts said:

Another interesting consequence of a UK pull-out is that the english language will lose utility for EU communications/documentation.

I guess Germany becomes the new big dog in EU , not that they weren't the big dog before.

JR

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Germany probably will "lead", yes.

I don't think the English language is in danger though, as it's probably the most commonly spoken language by far.

it's crazy seeing the system and its establishment self preservation skills. talk about brainwashing

i am afraid the power of money, banks, finance and bureaucracy (the real thing the union is after) will grow even stronger than before

and once again we will be exploited yet thinking we are free - or even more - that the voice of the people count something against the voice of the money

beatnik said:

it's crazy seeing the system and its establishment self preservation skills. talk about brainwashing

i am afraid the power of money, banks, finance and bureaucracy (the real thing the union is after) will grow even stronger than before

and once again we will be exploited yet thinking we are free - or even more - that the voice of the people count something against the voice of the money

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That's what the 'old' Labour Party stood for until Tony FBlair shifted it right almost as far as the Torys. Even now its stuffed full of teachers and ex local councillors. What we really need is working class representatives of the working class. All three parties are near the centre or right of it now. That's what really gets up the nose of many of the electorate. That's why UKIP did quite well some years ago - they actually offered something different. All of which is another reason why I think the recent Brexit vote was a vote of no confidence in UK politicians as a whole, not just of the EU. And judging by the number of MPs who vote Remain you get a feel for just how far out of touch they still are.

Cheers

Ian

this is happening all over europe. the distinction between left and right wing parties almost became none

they all have to obey to the market rates and all that crap. if you try to escape it, well we are seeing the response ...

in a situation like this it becomes clear to me how the people who really are in power are holding us by the balls

beatnik / ruffrecords

You pretty much described Sweden in those last posts!...

beatnik said:

in a situation like this it becomes clear to me how the people who really are in power are holding us by the balls

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There's no reason for it. If we, the people, had any balls to begin with, we could shut their circus down in a week. A "no bullets fired" revolution, waging the simplest of economic warfare on the elite...

But, no balls...

Banzai said:

beatnik said:

in a situation like this it becomes clear to me how the people who really are in power are holding us by the balls

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There's no reason for it. If we, the people, had any balls to begin with, we could shut their circus down in a week. A "no bullets fired" revolution, waging the simplest of economic warfare on the elite...

But, no balls...

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I think there is a little more to it. The UK electorate had the balls to vote Leave. The real problem is there are not enough ordinary people with the guts and stamina to stand for election with the policies the electorate would really like to see. You get a few independents now and again but the two main parties rule the roost. The Liberals and the SDP tried to form a third party but failed because they did not differentiate themselves or even offer anything the electorate wanted. THis might also explain the age split in the Brexit vote. The older generation are fed p with decades of corrupt politicians and the one chance they get to show their displeasure they do. The young are too worried about the mortgages and jobs to upset the status quo.

Cheers

Ian

Here's an example of what is wrong with politics and politicians:

Lord Hill, who quit as the UK's EU commissioner after the Brexit vote, is still to be paid 40% of his salary for the next three years - basically 250,000GBP. Commissioners are entitled to a 'transitional allowance' to allow them to 'look for a new job without financial pressure, thus minimising the risk of future conflicts of interest'.

I would laugh if I wasn't busy throwing up.

Cheers

Ian

One way to achieve that in a democracy is to go and vote. Talk to your representatives, challenge them, make them explain and above all listen to you!

Politicians don't come to our doors but they need to hear what the people have to say -- it's their job. And to do that job they need to be directed.

Protest voting all too often is a sign of weakness and (self-inflicted) dismay.

You guys are talking about creating change within the existing system... but this one's rotten to the core.

My worst fears are being confirmed, as reports of racist incidents are coming in thick and fast. This is just one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/29/manchester-tram-racism-two-bailed-one-remains-in-custody

We're only 5 days in...

Using your democratic vote to prevent people from other countries moving into yours is racist, pure and simple. If you'd earned the right to be there, you'd have grounds to discriminate. But discriminating simply because you were born somewhere is racist. Did you choose to be born in the UK? If they do a better job, or want the jobs that you don't want, what moral authority do you have?

Racism is legitimised in Britain. Well done, those of you who voted for it  :

thermionic said:

My worst fears are being confirmed, as reports of racist incidents are coming in thick and fast. This is just one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/29/manchester-tram-racism-two-bailed-one-remains-in-custody

We're only 5 days in...

Using your democratic vote to prevent people from other countries moving into yours is racist, pure and simple. If you'd earned the right to be there, you'd have grounds to discriminate. But discriminating simply because you were born somewhere is racist. Did you choose to be born in the UK? If they do a better job, or want the jobs that you don't want, what moral authority do you have?

Racism is legitimised in Britain. Well done, those of you who voted for it  :

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Tell that to the American Indians.........
Best,
Bruno2000

thermionic said:

My worst fears are being confirmed, as reports of racist incidents are coming in thick and fast. This is just one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/29/manchester-tram-racism-two-bailed-one-remains-in-custody

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This is disgusting. Of course there will always be a small minority who will take advantage of a situation for their own ends. They do not represent the majority.

Cheers

Ian

The fact is, nobody truly has any more right over anything or any place than anyone else. It is all just lines on a map and history, who has the money, who has the weapons, sadly. How far back do you go with the history anyway? The UK today is what? What is English? What is Scottish? Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Scotti, Picts, Celts, Normans, etc? Cro-Magnon? Neanderthal? Homo-Habilis? We're one of the most mixed-up places. Plenty of more recent immigrants too from Asia and wherever else who have just as much "birthright" as anybody else. We are all citizens of the same world. The divisions are entirely artificial. As a species we need to grow up and find better ways to get on and co-operate.

It is lovely to have a history and a culture and an individual or group identity. Long should such things be preserved, though of course, they evolve all the time. But, just because you have yours and some other folks have a different one is no reason for discrimination or violence. We should be smarter than this.

Just to clarify again that I am not drumming up leave. I am trying to be objective.

thermionic said:

My worst fears are being confirmed, as reports of racist incidents are coming in thick and fast. This is just one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/29/manchester-tram-racism-two-bailed-one-remains-in-custody

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This is nothing new. There were and are racist attacks in the UK in one form or another every single day. These  thugs have probably been doing this all the time and it happens that it made the front page easier today. I am a Guardian reader too but I do not read into everything.

Using your democratic vote to prevent people from other countries moving into yours is racist, pure and simple.

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No it is not. You are making a generalisation and that is wrong.

As I mentioned before I am  a first generation immigrant in this country and I will use my every single democratic right to oppose illegal immigration or legal immigration with intent to abuse the system. 

So, please be clearer.

Racism is legitimised in Britain. Well done, those of you who voted for it  :

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Certainly your view but again I disagree.

No it is not. You are making a generalisation and that is wrong.

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Ok. I should not have used the term racist. Instead, I'll say immoral. If you can argue that it's ethical to prevent people from other cultures moving into your town because you just happened to be born there, go ahead, please.

The analogy with American Indians isn't comparing apples to apples, it's the reverse of the situation here in Britain - they are a minority, not a majority amounting to millions. If I went around telling people that native Brits were an endangered species because of people immigrating here (often from war-torn places, where they might've been tortured or had relatives killed), I'd - rightly - be called a racist. That would be the kind of rhetoric used by white supremacists.

I was half kidding when I said invoking hitler would mark the end of civil argument, but i didn't realize Boris Johnson already did that back in May. 

It's right out of the rulz for radicals, to go personal (ad hominum) and try to put people on the defensive with outlandish accusations, like calling everyone who disagrees racist.  (that happens here to anyone who does not agree with our president).

There are real issues, while some arguments have been carried to hyperbolic extremes.

The people have voted, so now the work is to get a good result for all involved following that democratically decided direction.

JR

PS: No I Am not going to re-litigate offenses going back hundreds of years before I was born... It's hard enough dealing with the present and near future.

thermionic said:

No it is not. You are making a generalisation and that is wrong.

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Ok. I should not have used the term racist. Instead, I'll say immoral. If you can argue that it's ethical to prevent people from other cultures moving into your town because you just happened to be born there, go ahead, please.

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I am trying to understand your way of thinking but "immoral" will also be wrong.

My argument is not about "skull measuring" point of view. Allow me to repeat again. I am an immigrant.

I would love to be able to talk about people from other cultures moving into my town (and messing it up)but this would be very very long and neither I have the time to write nor you have the time to read.

But we are not talking about other cultures moving from one town to another within the same country.  There is nothing immoral about implementing an immigration policy which is fair to both the prospective immigrants and the residents of the country.

You may criticise Boris Johnson in any way you wish but I have not heard him basing his  immigration case on "skull measuring". Yes he mentioned of his concerns  about Turkey gaining free movement within EU but let me tell you something. I would have concerns about this too and I am Turkish. And if it comes to skull measuring part of Boris Johnson's skull is also Turkish. So that argument does not add up.

thermionic said:

Ok. I should not have used the term racist. Instead, I'll say immoral.

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The term you're looking for is xenophobic. Part and parcel of islander mentality.