carbon comp resistors in 1073

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hugo

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Feb 26, 2016
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Hi all,
i am bulding a pair of 1073s with original marinair, mustard etc...using original b cards design. I ordered most of components, and i took almost all resistors "carbon comp" ohmite. I read everywhere those resistors induce high noise level, so i am starting to be scared by this... I really do not want a noisy unit. May i change those resistors ? Or should i balance this choice with metal foil resistors ? It is only for the B cards, i alreay took xicon metal film resistors for the PSU...
Thank you.
 
Build one with and one without then decide which you like better. No point in worrying about things before they happen

Nick Froome
 
If you don't want to reorder all the resistors but are concerned with the noise you could change the resistors in the first and maybe second gain stages, which would contribute with most of the noise if there is a problem.

JS
 
sometimes those CC's can absorb moisture and get to cracklin
if they have been stored in a sealed bag you might be alright, just the luck of the draw,

some people think that the CC's sound better, old fender amps sure do sound good, there are a few amp builders who are going back to carbon comp, Splawn uses them, and their amps sound fantastic,

might depend on the application, high voltage vs low voltage, and location, plate vs cathode, collector vs emitter,
 
It is also for a good vintage look when you open the beast...iprefer to  avoid blue xicon in vintage clones...
 
If your ohmites are the newer "little demon" types, they're probably ok. I've found them to be pretty quiet.  As mentioned, just change the first gain stage is you're concerned (which is what I'd do anyway in a mic pre).
 
I ordered those resistor on Mouser, they are from ohmite and are pretty expensive... SO regarding your comments, i should remove the solder for all of them and replacing them with vishay or xicon ? Any pros and cons ? And after searching, i do not know which is the best for audio applications between vishay/dale and xicon.. I always go with vishay because of the military look, but is it a bad idea ?
Thank you
 
CJ said:
old fender amps sure do sound good, there are a few amp builders who are going back to carbon comp, Splawn uses them, and their amps sound fantastic,

And do Fender vintage Amps and Splawn sound good because of CC resistors?

I guess they would sound the same or better with Metal Film resistors
 
it is an old argument that is not important enough to invest money into for serious R and D,

and who cares anyway, musicians might, but the audience? no,

but if you look at what the amps that the old rock stars used, you will find that most of them contained carbon comps,  beatles, stones. hendrix, led zep, neil young, allman bros, but what was the role of the resistors? probably not much compared to mullard metal base EL34's and GE black plate 6L6's, but if you were trying to match up with the old amps, then you might consider old resistors, along with old tubes and sockets, maybe a leaky sprague or ajax,  ;D

here's a blurb>

"In the early days of electronic circuitry, carbon-composition resistors were really the only thing available besides wire-wound; this was current technology.  Then, over time, with the progression of electronics came different ways of producing resistors.  Eventually, we were provided with more options for cheap, like carbon-film, metal-oxide, and metal-film.  So, when we crack open our beloved vintage amps, we usually see an army of cool-looking carbon-comp. resistors.

Due to the carbon-comps.’ technological antiquity, there are some inherent problems in its design, though many will slap my wrist for using the term “problems.”  With any resistor, there exists a voltage coefficient of resistance.  Basically, it describes the varying resistance when there is an increase or decrease in voltage across the resistor.  Usually, the coefficient is negative, which means that resistance falls with an increase in voltage.  If it is large enough, the inconsistency will result in resistor distortion.  Carbon-comps. normally have a higher V.C.R. than newer types.  Barth Electronics provides an article on V.C.R. which states:

    The voltage coefficient varies with different resistive
    materials, and seems to be greatest for materials that are composed
    of a granular conglomeration of resistive material held together
    with an insulating binder. Carbon composition and cermet film
    resistors use these types of resistive materials.

These days, the difference may not be much, but in the carbon-comp. days, it was enough to create audible distortion.  When you see “new production” carbon-comp. resistors, that means that generally, they are going to perform a bit better in regards to the manufacturer’s specifications because of advancements in production.  Included in those specifications is the V.C.R. rating of the resistor.  Today, you may find the rating to be 0.005%/V compared to the carbon-comps. of the vintage era to be around 0.035%/V.

This particular “problem” with carbon-comp. resistors is one of the reasons that amp designers do continue to use them.  Resistor distortion causes harmonics which can be pleasant to the ear.  When used in the right areas of the amp, this “problem” can be used to your advantage.  By utilizing carbon-comps. as plate resistors on the output where the voltage is high, the second harmonic coloring is maximized.  Here, a well designed front end will deliver the signal to the plates of the output where the carbon-comp. can add some style.  On the other hand, by placing a carbon-comp. early on in the signal path can create unwanted noise which is amplified by the output stage.

Noise is another issue to consider when choosing resistors because all resistors produce noise. Do they still seem trivial?  Wire-wound resistors are the least noisy followed by metal-film, metal-oxide, and carbon-film.  The noisiest— carbon comp.  So, if you are concerned with noise, use metal-film resistors, especially in the input stage.  Aiken Amps has a great article that goes into detail about the different types of noise that a resistor can produce.  Check out the link below.

Another area of the amp circuit that should not contain carbon-comp. resistors is the power supply.  Since most carbon-comp. resistors new and old are not UL94-VO protected, which is a flameproof coating, they should stay away from the B line.

One more thing to consider is the power rating of the resistor.  You would think that ideally the larger the better, right?  Well, it is true that larger wattage resistors with larger geometries produce less noise than smaller resistors, but at the same time, their V.C.R. tends to be larger as well.  So, it is best to use a power rating that is large enough for the application without being much larger than is necessary.

Okay, so hopefully you’re a little more comfortable with what resistors to order.  Basically, if you want to build a vintage replica, use carbon-comp. throughout.  Remember, there’s a reason we like vintage amps; they were noisy and full of character.  If you’re building an amp from scratch, use newer metal-film or metal-oxide in the input stages, and experiment with carbon comp. flavoring in the high voltage areas of the output.  Finally, find a good median between the resistor’s power rating and what is required for the application.  There is no real benefit of using high rated resistors everywhere in the amp."
 
thank you ! I just populated BA283 with new carbon comp resistors, i will go with vishay for other cards and rotary switches
 
Afaik Neve didn't use carbon comps, at least the cards I know didn't look like it to my eye. So your approach might be more vintage than the original ;-)

Michael
 
Thanks for the text CJ, really nice information.

CJ said:
but if you look at what the amps that the old rock stars used, you will find that most of them contained carbon comps,  beatles, stones. hendrix, led zep, neil young, allman bros, but what was the role of the resistors? probably not much compared to mullard metal base EL34's and GE black plate 6L6's, but if you were trying to match up with the old amps, then you might consider old resistors, along with old tubes and sockets, maybe a leaky sprague or ajax,  ;

Old Rock Stars sounded good because the bands and the players were good

New Rock stars also sound really good and not worse than the old Rock Stars

Personally the resistors used in either case is out of the equation for me when defining the reasons of why a musician sounds good.

 
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