My mother would agree with me, but she died prematurely from what I described earlier. I think my personal care physician is slowly changing into what I described as well, lol
The Vaccine
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crazydoc
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Yes, diet, exercise, and other lifestyle issues are very important in maintaining health, but despite this, illness still occurs, which doctors try to mitigate by whatever means at their disposal. And then there is the 90% that, despite strong recommendations, can't or won't change anything to improve their health. It's too difficult for most to exercise, plan and prepare healthy meals, avoid poisons, get regular sleep, etc., and doctors are there to try to pick up Humpty Dumpty's pieces, though they can't put him together again.
crazydoc
Well-known member
So from one experience you are denouncing a whole profession. ¡Ándale!
If you believe the TV commercials we can now buy capsules that are equivalent to eating fruits and vegetables. 
OTOH you could just eat fruits and vegetables and get the additional benefits of water and fiber.
JR
OTOH you could just eat fruits and vegetables and get the additional benefits of water and fiber.
JR
I've just dipped my toe in this article--not the easiest read but seems pretty informative:
COVID-19 Vaccine-Acquired vs. Disease-Acquired Immunity: Which is Better? — Deplatform Disease
COVID-19 Vaccine-Acquired vs. Disease-Acquired Immunity: Which is Better? — Deplatform Disease
crazydoc
Well-known member
Good article - doesn't really answer the question it poses (apparently not enough info yet). My simplistic take-away is that the disease itself confers immunity mainly by mucosal mechanisms (when the pathogen enters the body via the mucosa - tissue lining the respiratory and digestive organs that are exposed to the outside world - as in the nasophanyngeal and pulmonary epithelial cells), whereas vaccination confers humeral immunity, being injected directly into the body tissues. Which is better was unclear to me. What did stand out was that vaccination of those who recovered from the disease produced immunity much greater than either mechanism alone.
interesting developments happening
something I noted, very little interest according to Google trends relating to variants pre-vaccine rollouts
an unfortunate coincidence?
something I noted, very little interest according to Google trends relating to variants pre-vaccine rollouts
an unfortunate coincidence?
How are you coming to this conclusion? Would you not expect a rise in antibodies when exposed to the thing that is intended to do just that? What happens when those naturally recovered are again exposed to either alpha or delta or flavor of the week variant?
Did you read the linked article?
This is flipping the bypass switch and being surprised it did what it was supposed to do when it works correctly.
Likely did not.
Article says that 10% of unvaccinated, recovered patients do not develop immunological memory -- IIRC, this is from a study before mutants appeared,
The article also says that reinfection with delta among recovered but unvaccinated people is more likely, if the first infection happened longer than 180 days ago.
Combine that with a slightly weakened system (noticeable or unnoticed sequela) and I take this to mean that it can get critical quickly.
-- Did I get this wrong ?? If so, please correct me. --
scott2000
Well-known member
That's what I picked up on... Although it's confusing for me to read through the reference data and understand what it means. Here's the study it sites. Not sure if it's a modeling thing being used.Section 1.7 Reinfections
And the SIREN study mentioned below the modeling is just as hard to understand what they are trying to say.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/1005517/Technical_Briefing_19.pdf
Jeez, I thought figuring out load lines was tricky..
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That's why scientific papers are submitted to peer review and sometimes their fellow scientists don't "follow the science".
JR
JR
Assume this is accurate. Hundreds of millions of cases. 10% of those is what? Where are the bodies?
Study ignores what i offered in experiment: what happens when you take peak performing vaccinated and expose to live virus
Ceteris paribus with someone recovered (i volunteer as tribute)
compare both immune responses
You cannot jab someone who has natural immune response and conflate that with "it works better"
How's India doing? How's the daily deaths in the US trending? If we assume the article is correct here again are we experiencing an unprecedented lag in bodies?
get your head out of broken models?
observe the practical experiment playing out in real time (life)
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when did those vaccines begin rolling out again?
Vaccination is not enough by itself to stop the spread of variants, study finds
"Vaccination alone won't stop the rise of new variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned Friday."
well that's an unfortunate turn of events... if only someone woulda mentioned this happening (like the many doctors that have been)
Question: Where were all the variants in 2020 if the unvax'd are the main driver?
"Vaccination alone won't stop the rise of new variants and in fact could push the evolution of strains that evade their protection, researchers warned Friday."
well that's an unfortunate turn of events... if only someone woulda mentioned this happening (like the many doctors that have been)
Question: Where were all the variants in 2020 if the unvax'd are the main driver?
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scott2000
Well-known member
Not sure . The article says approximately 10%. The study says greater than 90% had immunity and concluded 95% as a whole. Looking at individualized tests, it varies by test and length of time (5 months out, 8 months out...etc) so it's hard to decipher where these numbers come from without digging in deeper.
It would be nice if the various studies would be consistent with their study groups especially with respect to age. The study cited in this regard has ages 18-81 years old.
Were the "10%" older or younger?etc... I couldn't find it
Seems a lot of weight to be putting on a sample of less than 200 people. I guess that's why as many words were spent expressing as much.
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crazydoc
Well-known member
35m in US have had covid and presumably recovered. Assume none have been vaccinated. That means 3.5 million have no immunological memory and could have gotten it again. The rate of covid infectios so far has been ~35m/330m = ~10%, so say 10% of 3.5m got it again = 350k. Mortality is about 2% = 7000 bodies, easily lost in the 617,000 American bodies that have died from the disease.
Without debating the accuracy of prospective numbers, some 50k die a year from pneumonia, if our goal is zero deaths we need to get to work on that too.
Public health must weight the cost/benefit of prophylactic actions taken. We are just scratching the surface on quantifying the significant setback to children's education and social development. Locking down the economy has cost us jobs that may never come back and ruined small businesses who couldn't adapt fast enough.
I can't read minds as well as others, so I will try to imagine that everyone is acting with good intentions, but some clearly seem to have other motives, or perhaps are just incompetent.
JR
Public health must weight the cost/benefit of prophylactic actions taken. We are just scratching the surface on quantifying the significant setback to children's education and social development. Locking down the economy has cost us jobs that may never come back and ruined small businesses who couldn't adapt fast enough.
I can't read minds as well as others, so I will try to imagine that everyone is acting with good intentions, but some clearly seem to have other motives, or perhaps are just incompetent.
JR
If you subscribe to this as accurate data I dunno what to say. How many of the 617,000 that died that tested PCR+ also tested + for Flu or Pneumonia which the CDC calls P&I (the data is there, the numbers are staggering) Is this H1N1?
From April of 2020 we were let known that all deaths were "liberally" counted as COVID deaths regardless of root cause if there was a positive PCR.
Your models are broken.
Not 1 healthy child has died from COVID from what I can find. Anyone have new evidence to support otherwise?
Lockdowns won't happen again in states that won't allow it.
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