What rack gear could you not live without in your mixes?

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LOL that Grand Funk clip was a exageration of the sound I accidentally discovered by blasting a REAL LA2 with a bass DI.

Boy! That takes me back always (which surely gives my age away.) Good stuff, Maynard.

But, then, I always thought that was how it really sounded! I had a ersatz "band" in 1968-9 and that is sort of like how our bass amp sounded - but that is because it was a crappy amp with lousy speakers turned up too high.

Parenthetically, my favorite part/aspect of the recording is how realistic, and in proper proportion, the band members sound shouting over the music. That makes me feel as though I am right in front, leaning on the center of the stage and feeling the sound pressure as much as hearing the sound, with sense of space and distance. I suppose (guess) many recordists would have tried to enhance or bring that forward, which would have ruined the diminsional "live" sense of it. Getting that right means the rest of it is also right and in proper proportion. While I am NOT a professional recordist, I believe (guess) a good sense of proper proportion is the essence of good mixing in the studio.

Just MY take. James - K8JHR
 
But, then, I always thought that was how it really sounded! I had a ersatz "band" in 1968-9 and that is sort of like how our bass amp sounded - but that is because it was a crappy amp with lousy speakers turned up too high.
I think he said that recording is an amp and "before his time" but using that as a sonic example of the type of sound. ???
 
I think he said that recording is an amp and ... using that as a sonic example of the type of sound. ???
Ah ... right. I get it. And yet, while our bass amp did sound a lot like that, it was only because it really WAS crummy and distorted, NOT by design !! In those days, it was not WHAT instrument you owned, but WHETHER you even owned an instrument, that got you in the group. The final sound was determined less by engineering than by what one could scrounge up. :)

Seriously, that recording really takes me back in time. Shoot, I still (sometimes) use my first "real" microphone, a Shure Shpere-o-Dyne PE-53 mounted on an Atlas Sound boom stand - not because it sounds good, but just for old time's sake. I believe we sold everything else to pay for college, which, considering how awful we were as a band, it was a pretty sound exchange.

To almost sort of stay on topic: there are times when I think I can sense when a recording has too much of this or that plug in - analogous to the garish, unrealistic colors in a photo which has been post-processed to a fault. And I think they can (at least sometimes) sound different from over-extended analog effects. I am a funny sort of guy - I like simple, plain Jane recordings that sound like I am right there in the room at the time, and generally dislike any over processed digital recordings as they are, to me, the audible equivalent of an over processed photo. (Example: the overuse of autotune or badly done electronic drums.) - James
 
That is an overly generalization and I totally disagree.
And for sure for you to state that then you don't know all the plugins I know or you never used all the outboard gear I've used over the years, or you have something against software and computers.

There's many plugins, there's many hardware units, in plugins as in hardware there's bad units, good units and great units, so I find that over generalization about "all" plugins completely wrong.
There's many plugin emulations, some of them are actually not that good (Waves emulations for example), but there's some brands and specific plugin emulations that are simply amazing, there's also many many plugin units that are not emulations and don't exist in hardware.

Personally in my professional experience the pinnacle of ridiculousness of the discussion between plugins vs hardware came in 2011 were I was producing a record in Abbey Road's Studio 3.
I had 4x Fairchild 660 compressor units in the studio, 2 of them are in the studio rack and 2 of them were brought in for my sessions. I used the Fairchilds in the recording, then I tried the Bombfactory plugin emulation and for my needs the plugin didn't sounded better it sounded much better and I skipped those 4 really expensive units.
After that the discussion between plugins and hardware was over for me, I've used it all in terms of hardware I enjoy all the good things, sometimes I use it but I don't miss any of it nowadays, specially after UAD.

In reality sometimes people that say they like plugins are attacked by other people saying that they like it because they never used the hardware units, I find it's actually the opposite, people that defend hardware like if it was the last Coca Cola in the desert are normally people that never used most of the well known hardware units and dream about having it and think it would make them miracles.
I've used it all, there's no miracle involved in hardware, Plugins keep constantly evolving and yes that are plugins as good as the original units, there are also plugins that do many amazing things that no hardware unit ever did and that there's no equivalent in the hardware world.

I attach photos of the Hardware I had at my disposal in Abbey Road Studio 3 in 2011, all great stuff that I like a lot and had the pleasure to work with, but don't miss any in 2022.
It's not about hardware or plugins, both are tools, it's about having the tools you need and how you use them.

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That’s certainly an impressive list. I’m curious if you can be more specific on what you liked better about the plug-in version of the Fairchild? Where I tend to find I disagree with most people on this debate is what better means. For most engineers better gear means things like better s/n, lower thd, from a perspective that a result should sound as close to the source as possible (I’m not trying to put words in your mouth). The resur
That is an overly generalization and I totally disagree.
And for sure for you to state that then you don't know all the plugins I know or you never used all the outboard gear I've used over the years, or you have something against software and computers.

There's many plugins, there's many hardware units, in plugins as in hardware there's bad units, good units and great units, so I find that over generalization about "all" plugins completely wrong.
There's many plugin emulations, some of them are actually not that good (Waves emulations for example), but there's some brands and specific plugin emulations that are simply amazing, there's also many many plugin units that are not emulations and don't exist in hardware.

Personally in my professional experience the pinnacle of ridiculousness of the discussion between plugins vs hardware came in 2011 were I was producing a record in Abbey Road's Studio 3.
I had 4x Fairchild 660 compressor units in the studio, 2 of them are in the studio rack and 2 of them were brought in for my sessions. I used the Fairchilds in the recording, then I tried the Bombfactory plugin emulation and for my needs the plugin didn't sounded better it sounded much better and I skipped those 4 really expensive units and used the plugin instead.
After that the discussion between plugins and hardware was over for me, I've used it all in terms of hardware I enjoy all the good things, sometimes I use it but I don't miss any of it nowadays, specially after UAD.

In reality sometimes people that say they like plugins are attacked by other people saying that they like it because they never used the hardware units, I find it's actually the opposite, people that defend hardware like if it was the last Coca Cola in the desert are normally people that never used most of the well known hardware units and dream about having it (which I totally understand) and think it would make them miracles.
There's no miracle involved in hardware, Plugins keep constantly evolving and yes that are plugins as good as the original units, there are also plugins that do many amazing things that no hardware unit ever did and that there's no equivalent in the hardware world.

I attached photos of the Hardware I had at my disposal in Abbey Road Studio 3 in 2011, all great stuff that I like a lot and had the pleasure to work with, but I don't need any of it 2022 for mixing.
I still like to record/track with great Mic Pres, EQs and compressors before it hits the recorder (PT).
It's not about hardware or plugins, both are tools,both are great, it's about having the tools you need and how you use them.

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I was attempting to post from my phone last night and accidentally posted a reply in progress. I apologize in advance for the lack of posting skills such as the reply to quote feature. I'll try again:

There's so much to say, it's hard to know where to start or end. Of course, what we're debating is subjective and I'm not actually sure we disagree. Obviously, to have an opinion on anything requires a certain amount of generalizing or it would be near impossible to have a conversation about anything.

"you don't know all the plugins I know or you never used all the outboard gear I've used over the years, or you have something against software and computers"

This is true on all accounts, though I could easily say the same(minus the bit about computers).

"there's also many many plugin units that are not emulations and don't exist in hardware".

I agree. There are also many hardware units that don't exist as a plugin. And as you've said, even the same model hardware units can sound dramatically different; I think this is a feature. Their are things we can do with software that we can't with hardware and vice-versa. However, I would argue that the way we end up using/reacting/bonding (to name a few), has as much to do with the sound as the air it moves.

Hardware gives us a more unique sound:

As I'm sure you noticed, your fairchildren all sounded different which I would argue is another reason hardware is better. Is there an EP-3 plugin setting that has the same pinch roller I hand selected to have the perfect amount of warble, with a shorter tape loop to get the right timed sound on sound, that's over-biased(under?) with SM-911? Again, I play my hardware in real time. I don't remember what Space echo plugin my friend uses(while his hardware RE-201 collects dust), but I immediately noticed that when you switch repeat settings it doesn't do what the hardware does when you switch. Can you pluck the spring reverb tank in the plugin? Does the plugin emulate the echo with the worn heads(I realize there are various degradation settings on tape emulations)of his machine...or my less worn RE-301...or the one on the shelf in my repair queue? Again, what did you like about the Fairchild plugin better than the other 4? Do you think the improvement you heard is going to better compliment everything you work on ever? I think relying on more and more software results in us to stop considering these things and I'd argue it's a disadvantage. Your hardware is different than my hardware which adds to my sound. Why work at Abbey road if everything can be emulated better via plugin in the comfort of your own home? Do you tell your guitar players to leave their amps at home because the amp simulator is better? Why not get everyone together to decide what guitar sounds best, then just make that one guitar; Then you can hang them on the wall right next to the rack full pre-worn jeans that all perfectly mimic the pair of jeans that Jimmy Hendrix wore! Why even have a guitar player(ironically, I currently make electronic music though I rarely use midi)?

One of the private studios I worked at in my 20s(as an assembler, not an engineer)had a couple fairchildren that I never got to listen to extensively. However as Head of Assembly part of my job was to hand select the EF-14(no, not VF)tubes and mount the capsules in all the U47 clones. All this was done by ear. They all sound different. They all sound good(except the ones that didn't). One was even good enough to get Paul McCartney to rerecord all his vocals through for that covers LP he did.

We play and react to hardware differently which I think adds to more creativity and enjoyability:

We simply react differently to physical things. These differences I'd argue result in better music and a more enjoyable experience. I think there are several reasons for this but I'm mainly focusing on unpredictability and limitations. When I plugged my sampler into my H910 the other day I noticed that the sampler output pot was scratchy. That scratchy pot through the H910 ended up being a major component in my track. I've had the same experience with my Echolette tape delay;a scratchy pot and motor noise made the track, though completely accidental. I was recording a CS-50 that had a voice out. I discovered that when arpeggiating through a couple phrases, the space where the dead voice came in, resulted in an unexpected complexity that I wouldn't have achieved otherwise. Would you argue that a guitar player plays the same standing next to an amp that they do with an amp sim or a piano player paying a midi controller? How do you play feedback? If you record the midi data tracking fader movement(I admittedly tend to automate this) in real time does it ever look the same the as when you draw it in? I would argue that the visual representation of the fader automation results in correcting something you otherwise wouldn't(one might be inclined to replace a non linear manual crossfade with a visually perfect automated fade). Simply turning two "knobs" at once in real time is a challenge with a plugin! One pass of me tweaking my Re-301 as I record in real time would be horribly tedious to replicate ITB. Hardware changes, and it's a good thing. These days I repair vintage synthesizers for a living. After refurbishing Arcade Fire's CS-80 the thing is a living breathing masterpiece of ingenuity and craftsmanship! It reacts to it's environment(primarily temperature heh heh). Sure, I don't want to lift the thing or pay for one...but there's something about candy colored sliders that make you want to touch them, and how the feel that determines how you move them; Similarly to how thick strings help influence how you bend them. Would your recommend we all vote on what the best sounding guitar is and just make a plugin version? Furthermore, as a repair man, when they brake it's fun to fix. You don't have to wait for the service dept. to answer your email about proprietary software issues, or wait for the firmware upgrade before the thing you paid for actually works like it was advertised.

It's easier to bond with physical things. This bond makes a better story and effects our perception:

This is the most overlooked point by engineers imo: Sound is perception. It's not just moving air. We hear differently when we have a full stomach or when we're tired. Our ears fatigue at different rates depending on whether we enjoy what we're listening to; When we have wax in our ears, or we've had too much caffeine, or our allergies are bad. Almost everything I own I've repaired. It's increased my knowledge of how my tools work on a fundamental level and made me appreciate them more. More importantly its created a bond. My console sounds "better" because I replaced the noisy faders with P&G, buffered the VU meter driver, upgraded the opamps, transformer balanced the I/O, replaced several pots, added shielded cable...BUT it also sounds better because it has custom wood end-cheeks and a leather arm rest that I made with my dad because it directly invokes a fond memory. My '78 P-Bass sounds better because of the heavy body. But it also sounds better because of the small stain on the headstock from the time I accidentally split my bandmates head open during a live show on tour. There's now a story that helps create a bond, that improves the players perception, which effects the playing. I'm sure you'd agree as an engineer, that how you perceive what you're hearing directly effects what you do to a mix. Call it bias, placebo, whatever. Just don't pretend it doesn't matter; A lot.

In the next few years we'll most likely have AI that has gotten to the point where we can just push a button and get a unique song we love. The algorithm will monitor our reactions and continue to grow in ways that give us songs that will be even more sonically impressive that the last. I for one am going to miss all the other bits that came all with it. This doesn't even get into the limitations part of the argument. As the late, great John Hassel said (paraphrase), "Style develops from what we can't do."

One last thing: These plugin vs hardware debates never happen without cost coming into play. I think this is a straw-man argument. I don't have a Fairchild because I can't afford one, so a plugin might be a good solution. If that's what you're claiming then I agree. But if you think that your Fairchild compressor plugin is truly better than having a real one, then you have to take money out of the equation. You're entitled to your opinion and no offense, but if you find yourself in a room one day with a computer and Fairchild plugin on one table, and a real Fairchild on another, with a sign that says "Take One", and you pick the computer, then you're an idiot. And I sure as hell don't want you touching my mixes.

"It's not about hardware or plugins, both are tools,both are great, it's about having the tools you need and how you use them"

Agreed.
 
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^@Newmarket, TLDR? Jelly is a romantic and believes that the quibbles of analogue technology, and its tactility are plusses, and can make the music more unique. I can agree with both points, even if most people don't care too much about them. I can also say that I'm glad that I don't have to stick ear-cleaners in my computer to make the EQ stay in circuit (like I did on some channels when working on a Neve V1).
I can agree that plugins are sounding amazing these days, and that they shouldn't create sonic limitations in most cases - and have definitely brought quality to the masses. Also, many people are mixing just as well but faster in the box than they did on consoles, but then again... it's definitely a hell of a lot easier to play an analogue echo or a tape loop than try and manipulate in a similar way in the box, and for me, I tend to do things a little more wildly (in a good way) and use my ears, rather than eyes more when I've got a console in front of me.

I don't really see people dancing at their computers, but I have seen people dancing while mixing at a console, and I could feel the energy in those moments, and also after the fact in those mixes.
 
I don't really see people dancing at their computers, but I have seen people dancing while mixing at a console, and I could feel the energy in those moments, and also after the fact in those mixes.

You also never saw anyone in a mixing at a console in a studio getting Vitamin D while chilling out drinking a Mojito and Sangria in a sunny Beach like me when I'm mixing with my laptop, I even go surfing and enjoy the waves in the mixing breaks.
You can be sure that you will feel this enjoyment and enlightenment in the mixes.

😂
 
We just ditched a great SSL 4000 series in our mix room in favor of a hybrid ITB/multibus setup with a lot of great analog outboard gear.

We loved the SSL. I still love them. They're brilliant, ingenious machines. Ours even had the new THD Labs automation computer, allowing us to control VCA automation from Pro Tools. It was fantastic.

We made the change because the analog console, great as it was, didn't enable us to maximize all the advantages of a modern DAW-based workflow.

It's going to be nice to not have to explain to clients why we--the fully-featured (rather expensive) purpose-built high end mix room--aren't going to offer things that the cheap semi-pro who did their last record could easily do.

Like cost-effective perfect recall of mixes weeks (or months) down the line. Or the ability to bounce around from song to song in the project, mixing several tracks concurrently if that's the way the producer is accustomed to working. Or to print several mix stems at once, instead of taking hours and hours to print stems that can't be combined without analog path noise floor becoming additive (which compromises stem revisions).

It's also going to be nice to mix music without the sonic signature of the SSL when we want it--like if we're working on modern pop that has to have a super firm, solid and extended bottom-end.

Working on a console is much more romantic, and can enforce a certain set of workflows that sometimes (NOT always!) prove artistically advantageous--but it represents, fundamentally, a set of limitations as well as a set of opportunities (which are, frankly, borne of those very same limitations).

A fine decision to make if working on your own music. Perhaps less reliably-advantageous when operating a commercial mix facility in 2023.

Tracking is a different story. We still have an 80-series Neve in each tracking room with no plans to let them go any time soon.
 
Just a random comment from a guy who cut/mixed on a desk for decades but is now retired.....

I NEVER got used to ITB for mixing. Olde Phart here loves the tactile of faders and knobs.
I actually find this relatable!

But one thing is constant: the way it was last time won't necessarily be the way it is next time. And I've felt my thinking evolve considerably on this.

For one thing--ITB simply sounds better now than it used to. We can pontificate at length on why (floating point internal math preventing hidden overs; converter quality improving; engineers learning better how to work with the medium...) but the short version is that great digital audio can really excite me now in a way that it couldn't a decade or two ago.

I like photography analogies, so I think of it like this: A 2005-era 5 megapixel digital point-and-shoot would rightly give a lot of people a bad impression of digital photography. They sucked. But if someone formed their opinion based on that and never investigated further, they might've missed a whole lot... because we've left that world in the dust. A high end DSLR can produce images that are just as stunning as the best film print, but in a different way.

That's where I feel we are with digital audio. It's capable now of being every bit as gorgeous and engrossing as analog tape and a large analog console, but it's a different kind of beauty (and the precise manner in which it's involving to the listener is a bit different).

Secondarily, the tactile feel of faders and knobs is most certainly replicable in the digital domain. We have two SSL UF8 fader controllers going in the desk that's replacing our old G series desk, and they're already a joy to work with. It gives us sixteen motorized faders and a push/push rotary encoder on each, and it's trivial to page through tracks and select functions. I can't move more than sixteen faders at once, It doesn't feel less-tactile, less-intuitive or worse than working on the analog desk.

If you found yourself forced to work in a well-integrated modern room, you might be surprised that it feels pretty natural. And with advancements like Flock relay-controlled patchbays, it can actually feel more seamless than an analog workflow if the setup is truly well-conceived.
 
In my latest/last works on music projects, I sat behind a Neve Capricorn desk with a great user interface. I was a "duck in the water"! The audio input came from a DAW. I used the DAW as an Olde School multitrack.

But whatever works!

Bri

PS I keep hoping for a project with "four guys in a room" again vs. spending weeks autotuning and comping.....
 
In my latest/last works on music projects, I sat behind a Neve Capricorn desk with a great user interface. I was a "duck in the water"! The audio input came from a DAW. I used the DAW as an Olde School multitrack.

But whatever works!

Bri
"Whatever works" is absolutely it!

And of course what works on one project (for me) may not be the same as what works on the next one

PS I keep hoping for a project with "four guys in a room" again vs. spending weeks autotuning and comping.....

Those projects do still exist. I produced one at Sam Phillips in Memphis a couple of months ago, where they've recently re-installed one of the old Flickinger-modified Spectra Sonics desks that used to be at Stax. A very limited but great-sounding desk.

On some of the tunes we even used the live vocal (printed alongside that funky chamber they have there). A really great way to work for the right project!

But I'll be mixing it in our new hybrid room next month.
 
I admit to being Ye Olde Phart! lol

What "cranked my clock" 20-ish years ago....

I was doing a repair on an Ampex ATR-100 in the rear of a very nice studio. The folks elsewhere were cutting a Christian/rock album.

I heard the female singer singing quite well, and after a few punch-ins (Pro Tools session) on her track, I figured they were done.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO......the producers began began auto tuning every note. After an hour or so, I had repaired the ATR. The bozos were still fiddling on the first line of her vocal.

At that point, I figured I had no more reason to work in recording anymore.

Bri
 
Any technology can be used, overused, or misused

Over-tuning, in my view, isn’t any different than over-compressing or even over-arranging!
Sigh....I agree to an extent But, I had a look back then about what pop music would become. I just can't listen to "current" pop music any more because all I hear is auto tune.

Thank you, Cher! <g>
 
You also never saw anyone in a mixing at a console in a studio getting Vitamin D while chilling out drinking a Mojito and Sangria in a sunny Beach like me when I'm mixing with my laptop, I even go surfing and enjoy the waves in the mixing breaks.
You can be sure that you will feel this enjoyment and enlightenment in the mixes.

😂
Absolutely right! I do think that where we’re at with DAWs (and headphones) is pretty amazing, no doubt about it. I’ve been fortunate to work in some studios with great natural light, and have always found bunker-studios a bit of a torment. You my friend, are living the dream!

@soapfoot, I take it you work at The Bunker in NYC? I follow your Instagram. You guys have made it into a pretty cool resource, rather than purely advertising.

For most commercial studios (especially those that had built themselves on SSLs), I totally get that consoles are becoming less and less attractive. And as you mentioned regarding pop/bottom end, summing on a console sounds different (and each console is different). A year or so back, I was punching out stems for a mix done on a CADAC G, and then comparing the mix versus the stems summed through Pro Tools, and asides from the (very marginal) increased noise of the stem mix (from which the Dolby Atmos mixes were built), the main difference was indeed the way that the transients were dealt with. Tools had definitely retained more of them, and for dance/pop music, that would probably be better, but for my taste, the board sum of this just sounded way more focussed and musical by pushing the transients a bit out of the way. It’s not necessarily something that anyone thought they would want (in this case, the artist wanted the desk mix, not the engineer, who at that stage was working 90% ITB), but musically it was very agreeable.

Anyway, I think most of us can agree that nowadays most gear can be replaced with plugins these days 😁
 
Sigh....I agree to an extent But, I had a look back then about what pop music would become. I just can't listen to "current" pop music any more because all I hear is auto tune.

Thank you, Cher! <g>

Like Soapfoot say a lot of interesting projects with no auto tube exist by the thousands and release records all the time.
Also projects of 4 or 5 musicians playing in a room. There’s space for everyone.

Off course the most Commercial FM Radios will only play the latest Number 1 hit song. But there’s alternative radios and you also have YouTube and The digital streaming platforms that you can listen every artist you want and you can also choose a playlist of artists of a similar style or aesthetics.

I recommend you to check a project called “Bahamas”, I love it. Great songs/lyrics great playing and singing and great sounds
 
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@soapfoot, I take it you work at The Bunker in NYC? I follow your Instagram. You guys have made it into a pretty cool resource, rather than purely advertising.

Glad you enjoy the Instagram! I started doing that in 2019 and have kept at it. People seem to like it!

I’m one of the owner-partners there; a minority interest compared to the two principal owners but it is my base on the east coast.

Cheers!
 

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