GroupDIY

Project Specific Discussions => Dynamic Processors => Topic started by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 08:48:49 AM

Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 08:48:49 AM
resources:

PM660 Block Diagram (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM660-BlockDiagram.pdf)
PM660 schematic (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM-schematic.pdf)

PM660 Component Placement and Dimensions (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM660_rev01-SilkScreen.pdf)
PSU660 Component Placement and Dimensions (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PSU660_rev02-SilkScreen.pdf)
note: use IRF840 in both places (Q4 & Q5)
wiring guide (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PoorMan-WiringGuide.pdf)

PM660 Parts List (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM660_rev01-PartsList.pdf) (this is for one channel)
PSU660 Parts List (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PSU660_rev02-PartsList.pdf)

Heater PSU (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg347004#msg347004)
the SlowStart Heater PSU (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg371412#msg371412)
+/-17V PSU (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PSU17V-Schematic.pdf)
the rotary switches (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg344252#msg344252)
more on the rotary switches by Kingston (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg413222#msg413222)
how to set the trimmers (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg352868#msg352868)
Stereo Link (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg351582#msg351582)
Meters (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg353980#msg353980)
color coding of bernbrues PSU transformers (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg355128#msg355128)
5687 Tubes mhm, some people having problems with their 5687 tubes. it is still unclear if it is a specific brand, relabeled other tubes or falsifications. we will keep you informed ...
PSU mods by Pier Paolo Abbate (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg555810#msg555810) - use at your own risk!


NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN ATTEMPTED IN THE FIELD WITH A PM660:
the pimp / mod the Poor Man 660 thread (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=29056)
some great thoughts, mainly by emrr

gear porn: the finished poor men
bernbrue (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg355304#msg355304)
waldorfcave (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg365504#msg365504)
dspruill (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg371316#msg371316)
Gachet (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg378706#msg378706)
klaus2you (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg391959#msg391959)
rss (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg396355#msg396355)
lewilson (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg407709#msg407709)
inputoutput (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg409273#msg409273)
idylldon (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg410094#msg410094)
dagoose (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg415199#msg415199)
AW_music (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg418315#msg418315)
skal1 (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg418987#msg418987)
khstudio (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg421020#msg421020)
SaMpLeGoD (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg422494#msg422494)
veermaster (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg422722#msg422722)
noulou (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg424736#msg424736)
Holger (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg443165#msg443165)
ChuckD (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg445442#msg445442)
Silvas (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg475854#msg475854)
kilmister (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg476937#msg476937)
loopermc5 (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=40339.msg499448#msg499448)
horvitz (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg521386#msg521386)
alexc (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg521464#msg521464)
radiance (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=44107.msg551415#msg551415)
tekno808 (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg564845#msg564845)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lofi on June 22, 2008, 09:03:07 AM
1 x 100n WIMA MKS2  C13,C14,C23,C24 ~ should this not be 4?

16 x 1N4007 D1-D8,D9,D11-D18 ~ should this not be 17?

excellent work Sir!!!!!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 09:07:52 AM
Sir, you are absolutely right :thumb:
good to have someone looking over it.

thanks & updated
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lofi on June 22, 2008, 09:10:09 AM
16 x 1N4007 D1-D8,D9,D11-D18 ~ should this not be 17?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on June 22, 2008, 09:10:24 AM
:wink:
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 09:14:43 AM
D7 is wrong. updated again.
thanks for your support, Sir :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lofi on June 22, 2008, 09:17:24 AM
You guys are the support, this project is a dream come true for me, everything else is on the back boiler till its done!!!

thank you so much

 :green:  :green:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on June 22, 2008, 12:51:21 PM
Some possible additional Mouser numbers:

PM PCB
Heat Sink: 567-637-10ABP

10u/25V:    140-HTRL25V10-RC
100u/25 E: 647-UHE1E101MED
1000u/25: 647-UHE1V102MHD (adjusted up to 35V for size)
4700U/16: 647-UHE1C472MHD
47u/300+: 647-UVR2V470MHD
100u/300+: 647-UVR2V101MHD

Heat Sink SK104 :567-647-15ABP
"      " SK129: 567-677-20ABP

Heat Sinks are crossed over from Conrad part # spec sheet.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on June 22, 2008, 02:35:42 PM
Great!

Volker, would you have a BOM for the bypass board too?

Cheers!
G
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 02:49:52 PM
for the bypass PCB use this:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=26585&start=198
Relay for the Poor Man is 12V

kazper, thanks for the input, will crosscheck and update :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jarlehal on June 22, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: "kazper"
Some possible additional Mouser numbers:

PM PCB
Heat Sink: 567-637-10ABP

10u/25V:    140-HTRL25V10-RC
100u/25 E: 647-UHE1E101MED
1000u/25: 647-UHE1V102MHD (adjusted up to 35V for size)
4700U/16: 647-UHE1C472MHD
47u/300+: 647-UVR2V470MHD
100u/300+: 647-UVR2V101MHD

Heat Sink SK104 :567-647-15ABP
"      " SK129: 567-677-20ABP

Heat Sinks are crossed over from Conrad part # spec sheet.


Possible to use Mouser #: 647-UVY2G221MRD for the two
"200μ/400V Electrolytic, ø 30mm, RM 10mm"?

Mouser part is a Radial Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitors - 105 Degree 400V 220uF 22X50 20%Tol 10LS 105Deg
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: osc on June 22, 2008, 04:53:21 PM
Woow !!!

Very nice, thanks Volker!


:guinness: :guinness: :sam:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on June 22, 2008, 05:12:13 PM
I'm thinking of using a rotary switch for time constant control, I have 2 (for PM670) nice 1-12 switches lying around.  Do you guys think 12 pos would be too coarse?

And, if not, just make it linear?  12 even steps to get to 10k?

Cheers,
G
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 05:20:08 PM
I will use six steps :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on June 22, 2008, 05:33:33 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]I will use six steps :green:
   :wink:

First step zero Ohm, 6th step 10k?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 22, 2008, 05:41:15 PM
and 5 x 2K resistors between each step ? :green:
(me I will do)
why not.
but we will come to the rotary switches later ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: wtmnmf on June 23, 2008, 01:48:29 PM
Any reason to prefer one of these over another?

http://store.tubedepot.com/5687.html

Are any of these tests worth paying for?

#   Standard Test Included – All tubes from TubeDepot.com are tested and guaranteed to work as they should. There is no fee for this test.
# Hi-Gain (+$2.00) – If you want a preamp tube with higher gain, you can choose this option. There is a $2 per tube fee for this test.
# Matching (+$2.00) – If you want matched pairs of preamp tubes, choose this option. You must buy at least 2 preamp tubes for us to match preamps tubes. We match to within 3%. There is a $2 per tube fee for this test.
# Balanced Triodes (+$2.00) – If you want the best performance for the Phase Inverter section of your amplifier, you can choose this option. There is a $2 per tube fee for this test.
# Matched+Balanced Triodes (+$4.00) – We can match and balance preamps tubes for you as well. You must buy at least 2 preamp tubes for us to match and balance preamps tubes. There is a $4 per tube fee for this test.
# Low Noise and Microphonics (+$4.00) – If you have a phono stage that has to have the quietest preamp tubes available, we can ensure you get the best with this option. There is a $4 per tube fee for this test.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on June 23, 2008, 06:25:59 PM
i think low noise  and microphonics would be a good idea. i've used that option in the past. i could swear it was only $2 per tube only last year.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 24, 2008, 02:10:10 AM
Quote from: "analag"
... This mu compressor is not sensitive to tube mis-match. I did my homework in the cathode circuit to compensate for that ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on June 24, 2008, 04:56:22 AM
I've put the Bom into a Google docs spreadsheet. Its shared with the Groupdiy account, so anyone can access/edit.

If u have a google account and want access, just share it with yourself.

This ones based around parts/prices in the UK but could be copyied into another spreadsheet for US prices and part numbers.
I haven't inputed any formula for totals etc, bit of a spreadsheet novice.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 24, 2008, 05:18:43 AM
where I bought my tubes:

6BC8:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250120083458
(12 available)

5687
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370032463151
(8 available)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Nele on June 24, 2008, 06:04:27 AM
Some Farnell corrections:

CHANNEL

2N6107 -> 1017665 leads to a BC214... Is this correct?


PSU

1N4007 -> 9549129
1N4764A -> 9398511 (3,5W)
1N4747 -> 1467599 (1W)
IRF820 ->8648514


Adios,
Corneel
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: synthi on June 24, 2008, 06:20:42 AM
Googling and reading for the 5687 type tubes, I`ve read that 5687WB have  higher distortion than a plain 5687 or 5687WA, any comments? urban myth?

Synthi
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 24, 2008, 06:21:50 AM
Quote from: "Nele"
2N6107 -> 1017665 leads to a BC214... Is this correct?

of course not :oops:
thanks for the additions, will update the pdfs tonight :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Nele on June 24, 2008, 06:41:38 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "Nele"
2N6107 -> 1017665 leads to a BC214... Is this correct?

of course not :oops:
thanks for the additions, will update the pdfs tonight :thumb:


Haha, no problemo.  The thing is, Farnell Europe doesn't have the 2N6107. You can get it from the US through Farnell (code 1126037 ), but it will cost an extra 25 euros..  :sad: . Is there a European equivalent or replacement?

Adios,
Corneel
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jim50hertz on June 24, 2008, 07:27:43 AM
RS carry it, part no 2509571479

Minimum order of 25 at 33p each tho  :roll:
Title: Power transformer for the PM660.
Post by: edcorusa on June 24, 2008, 09:00:30 AM
For those who are interested in a standard EI core power transformer, instead of a toroidal transformer, EDCOR has one to fit the PM660. The model number is XPWR063. It is not listed on their web site just yet.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on June 24, 2008, 09:29:13 AM
I'm interested in the signal xfmrs needed
can you post that info with price break
[ N.A. grp buy anyone ? ]

 Although the torroids can pass more high frequency garbage
the EI core often produce a mechanical hum of their own ,
besides the radiation , Do you know how your fair in this regard ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: edcorusa on June 24, 2008, 04:50:04 PM
The audio transformers, that most have been purchasing from EDCOR for the PM660, is the XSM600/10K and XSM10K/600. They are $12.94 for 1 to 9 and $12.44 for 10+, at the time of this post. There are also price breaks over 250pcs.

Yes, EI core transformers can produce a mechanical hum. The reasons for this can range from loose screws, not well varnished and pushing the transformer more then its maximum capabilities. As for EDCOR transformers, the only time any one has mentioned a mechanical hum was do to the fact that they were drawing more current then the transformer was rated for. This is very common on audio transformers for the sound. For power transformers some use a power transformer that is close to what they need and may draw a little more then what it is rated for. I have heard in a lot of cases that a slight tap of a hammer can quite it down, talk about tough love, but that is what I have heard. I am sure that many will disagree with me as this is all subjective.
 :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on June 24, 2008, 06:27:02 PM
Probable corrections:

1 x 220n WIMA MKS2 C3
www.mouser.com
505-MKS2.022/63/10   should be 505-MKS20.22/63/5

1 x 1N4764 D7
www.mouser.com 78-1N6764A   should be 78-1N4764A


...and this looks like a good Mouser substitute #:

4 x 100n/630V WIMA MKP4 or MKP10 C2,C4,C8,C10 (MKP10 26.5 x 7 x 16.5 mm  22.5 mm spacing)
www.mouser.com  metallized polyester 505-MKS4.1/630/10P   26.5 x 6 x 15 mm  22.5 mm spacing
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on June 25, 2008, 06:32:20 AM
mr edcor,
do you have a price for the XPWR063?
Is it enclosed,or can it be?
seeing as i'll be getting the audio xforms from u guys may as well be powered by edcor too.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on June 25, 2008, 09:56:58 AM
is there any control for DC bias to control ratio /knee ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on June 25, 2008, 12:25:58 PM
Quote from: "Nele"
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "Nele"
2N6107 -> 1017665 leads to a BC214... Is this correct?

of course not :oops:
thanks for the additions, will update the pdfs tonight :thumb:


Haha, no problemo.  The thing is, Farnell Europe doesn't have the 2N6107. You can get it from the US through Farnell (code 1126037 ), but it will cost an extra 25 euros..  :sad: . Is there a European equivalent or replacement?

Adios,
Corneel


Hi Nele,

Have you checked your local store? I checked with mine (Brigatti in Eindhoven) today and they have the 2N6107 in stock.  I will going there tomorrow of maybe Friday, if you want I can buy one extra and ship it to you?  

PM me if you want one.

Cheers,
G
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Nele on June 25, 2008, 03:58:50 PM
Hi G,
Thanks, but I found that Futurlec (http://www.futurlec.com/) also has them in stock. Only $4 shipping so I'll combine it with some other items I nead (for 1176D...).
Adios,
Corneel
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: codered on June 25, 2008, 06:43:50 PM
Anybody know why the FC670 gain is anti-clockwise.It was a std Daven right?
Title: Re: Power transformer for the PM660.
Post by: no-fi on June 25, 2008, 07:03:51 PM
Quote from: "edcorusa"
For those who are interested in a standard EI core power transformer, instead of a toroidal transformer, EDCOR has one to fit the PM660.


that sounds like a nice option for people who need to order the audio transformers direct from you, anyway...

will this transformer supply enough power to run a dual 660?
also - what voltage is the primary? my preference would be CT 230V, so it can run anywhere....

thanks!
 :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on June 25, 2008, 08:54:23 PM
Quote from: "codered"
Anybody know why the FC670 gain is anti-clockwise.It was a std Daven right?


There's instructions for wiring Daven pots so input goes up and output down at the same time, for 'unity' operation.  May or may not relate.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jackies on June 26, 2008, 12:54:11 AM
So what about tube subs?
It looks like 6BC8 can be subbed with 6BQ7, do you think that would work?
I have a bunch of those...
However I can't see what would be a good sub for 5687...
Any ideas?
 :roll:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 26, 2008, 03:28:22 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
Quote from: "codered"
Anybody know why the FC670 gain is anti-clockwise.It was a std Daven right?

There's instructions for wiring Daven pots so input goes up and output down at the same time, for 'unity' operation.  May or may not relate.

this instruction is only for "remote Threshold":
the original used a step attenuator, 1 dB per step, for input gain control.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: edcorusa on June 26, 2008, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: "mrclunk"
mr edcor,
do you have a price for the XPWR063?
Is it enclosed,or can it be?
seeing as i'll be getting the audio xforms from u guys may as well be powered by edcor too.


The XWPR is $56.65US.

The unit has a 115V or 230V (50/60Hz) primary with a 250V (200mA), 9V (6A) and a 15-0-15 (1A) secondaries. The XPWR063 is an open framed transformer with endbells.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on June 26, 2008, 03:01:11 PM
Quote from: "edcorusa"
The unit has a 115V or 230V (50/60Hz) primary with a 250V (200mA) and two 15-0-15 (1A) secondaries.

No heater/filament power?

JDB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: edcorusa on June 26, 2008, 04:54:46 PM
:oops: I am sorry I did not see that on the spec. Yes, there is a 9V (6A) for the heart. Thank you for pointing it out. I have edited my other post
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dolo72 on June 27, 2008, 06:22:58 AM
Hi
    Would it be possible to mount all the controls and the meters in a remote panel separate from the main box with the PCB's and psu etc. If yes what sort of distance from the guts to the control panel could I use ?

   Thks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 27, 2008, 06:29:38 AM
Quote from: "dolo72"
Would it be possible to mount all the controls and the meters in a remote panel separate from the main box with the PCB's and psu etc

no
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dolo72 on June 27, 2008, 07:40:58 AM
Thanks - thought not.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 28, 2008, 04:04:07 PM
Is this 5687wb/Phillips good for poorman?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on June 28, 2008, 10:54:34 PM
Quote from: "skal1"
Is this 5687wb/Phillips good for poorman?


Should be...

analag
Title: Alternative switches
Post by: kazper on June 28, 2008, 11:57:16 PM
Found some more part numbers that I wanted to pass on as possibilities.

12 pos switch for Attack

www.alliedelec.com
Mfr Part#: 71BD30-01-1-AJN
Allied Stock#: 948-7247
$13.65

Inexpensive 12 pos 2 deck for Gain and Threshold for those trying to save a few$

Mfr Part#: 71BD30-02-1-AJN
Allied Stock#: 948-7249
$17.52


NON Shorting 2 Pole x12 pos Allied # 747-6700 MFG #C4D0212N-A $15.53EA Can be used on all switches
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on June 29, 2008, 06:36:57 AM
Re: Valves in the UK, watfordvalves.com has the 5687's @ £7 a piece and
I found some 6BC8's on ebay for around £8 each.
2N6107's are also on Ebay @ around 87 pence a shot.
A bit of searching will bring them all up.
Cheers,

Marty.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 29, 2008, 07:18:28 AM
Hi analog,



would you recommend 6BS8 as a direct  substitute for the 6BC8 Dual Triode ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Tillmann on June 30, 2008, 01:24:44 PM
links for silentarts.com don't seem to be working at the moment.  Did they move somehow?  

Cheers,

T
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 30, 2008, 01:33:32 PM
Quote from: "Tillmann"
links for silentarts.com don't seem to be working at the moment.  Did they move somehow?

no, nothing moved.
ping, ftp and email works, but not the homepage itself.
however, must be a problem at 1und1 (the provider)  :?
hope they solve it soon

[edit: just as I wrote this all is fine again] :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Tillmann on June 30, 2008, 02:02:15 PM
got it.  Thanks!  Also, thanks for doing the parts lists!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Vas on June 30, 2008, 06:34:43 PM
hi there!
i was wondering if i can use sowter 4383 and 8940 on the poor man?i know it will go expensive but i have some left overs and i'm thinking building one mono poorman(660)with those,i have read that various transformers could be used and i thought that because some used in volkers dla2a XSM's i could use sowters instead of them(i will built an another mono and one stereo unit with edcors)
also does anybody compared sowters to edcors in the same sircuit?(dla2a?)any opinions?
volker,i was wondering if this pcb fits 1/2w carbon composition resistors?

thanks analag and volker for this project!!

best regards
bill
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 01, 2008, 03:56:31 AM
Quote from: "Vas"
volker,i was wondering if this pcb fits 1/2w carbon composition resistors?

Hi Bill,
the design is for resistors with a 0207 package, lead spacing is 10.16mm
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Vas on July 01, 2008, 05:51:07 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "Vas"
volker,i was wondering if this pcb fits 1/2w carbon composition resistors?

Hi Bill,
the design is for resistors with a 0207 package, lead spacing is 10.16mm


i see.....thanks for the reply and this project :thumb:
best regards
bill
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: codered on July 01, 2008, 04:41:54 PM
I dont have the green to go for 4x Elmas and this is what I'm planning to do:

http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=74532&czuid=1214944002403

It is a 18 pos concentric switch.first align the wipers and drill a small hole across.Then put a pin to lock the 2 shaft

OR another idea maybe to pour some instant glue between the 2 concentric shafts.Whatdaya think??
Title: Re: Alternative switches
Post by: fazeka on July 01, 2008, 06:07:21 PM
Quote from: "kazper"
Found some more part numbers that I wanted to pass on as possibilities.

Mfr Part#: 71BD30-01-1-AJN

Mfr Part#: 71BD30-02-1-AJN


Appreciate the potential savings, but does the circuit require shorting rather than non-shorting switches? Or is it just a matter of living with the clicks and pops when moving through the positions?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 01, 2008, 06:13:39 PM
shorting = no clicks, non shorting = may be clicks
at least there will be MUTES with non shorting switches if you turn them slow enough.
the gain and threshold controls are fed with the audio signal :green:

if you all really are curios how this PoorMan works, you can still study the original fairchild schematic.
if I would have to draw a signal flow chart for both, they would be the same :thumb:
it is just another version ...
easier to build
available parts

I would call it "adapted" to today
and yes, I have had originals in my hands :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: fazeka on July 01, 2008, 10:15:39 PM
OK, sounds good.

BTW, hope this isn't a stupid question but I was thinking about the Lorlin rotaries for use in the PM670. I know that they only have 6 positions, would this mean too broad/big a jump between positions?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 02, 2008, 01:08:55 PM
Quote from: "wtmnmf"
Any reason to prefer one of these over another?

http://store.tubedepot.com/5687.html

Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]where I bought my tubes:

6BC8:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250120083458
(12 available)

5687
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370032463151
(8 available)

Quote from: "MartyMart"
Re: Valves in the UK, watfordvalves.com has the 5687's @ £7 a piece and
I found some 6BC8's on ebay for around £8 each.

Quote from: "analag"
Quote from: "skal1"
Is this 5687wb/Phillips good for poorman?


Should be...

analag


http://www.tubesandmore.com/
5687 $3.45
6BC8 $3.71
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 02, 2008, 02:14:16 PM
Quote from: "fazeka"
I was thinking about the Lorlin rotaries for use in the PM670. I know that they only have 6 positions, would this mean too broad/big a jump between positions?

yes
you COULD get out YOUR sweet spot while testing with a 10K dual potentiometer in series with 5K.
but 6 steps are - mhm - very limited
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 02, 2008, 02:17:19 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
http://www.tubesandmore.com/
5687 $3.45
6BC8 $3.71

 :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 02, 2008, 03:02:16 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "fazeka"
I was thinking about the Lorlin rotaries for use in the PM670. I know that they only have 6 positions, would this mean too broad/big a jump between positions?

yes
you COULD get out YOUR sweet spot while testing with a 10K dual potentiometer in series with 5K.
but 6 steps are - mhm - very limited


Fully agreed.  A small # of steps will be either very big jumps or very range limited.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on July 02, 2008, 03:50:31 PM
Wow the tubes and more prices are great !!
I just got all the valves for the PM670 and 2LA2 , it was almost £90  !!
( $170 )

MM  :oops:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: ruairioflaherty on July 02, 2008, 04:07:31 PM
Question for Rowan, Bernd and Volker

Do you have any thoughts you could share on the importance of tube quality for this circuit?  I'm a relative beginner at all of this and even though I've been hanging here for 3 years or so I've devoted all of my energy towards trying to understand solid state.  Like many I suppose this will be my first tube build.

So do you have any thoughts to share on what we should be looking for in tubes?

-Is it critical that we get a quality tube for any given section?
-Is there any matching required (I remember Rowan saying that the circuit does not thump despite the lack of matched tubes)

Please forgive me if this is basic stuff.  I've ordered a selection of tubes from tubesandmore as the prices are so good.  They don't give much info on what they are though.

Cheers,
Ruairi
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 02, 2008, 04:17:53 PM
Tubesandmore are one of the oldest american NOS tube suppliers.   Service has always been good, in my experience.

Rowan may have built in some balancing circuits; we won't know until we see it, or he tells us.  He has commented that tube selection was non-critical, I recall.  

Not hoping to open Pandora's box here, but the runaway success of this project may prove to be a test of immediate NOS tube supply (400+ channels = 1600+ tubes).   We may see prices rise on these types, as this will probably appear to be a huge and unexpected demand to the suppliers.   Anyone got a lead on 500 pieces of each at wholesale rates?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: ruairioflaherty on July 02, 2008, 04:32:48 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
Tubesandmore are one of the oldest american NOS tube suppliers.   Service has always been good, in my experience.

Rowan may have built in some balancing circuits; we won't know until we see it, or he tells us.  He has commented that tube selection was non-critical, I recall.  

Not hoping to open Pandora's box here, but the runaway success of this project may prove to be a test of immediate NOS tube supply (400+ channels = 1600+ tubes).   We may see prices rise on these types, as this will probably appear to be a huge and unexpected demand to the suppliers.   Anyone got a lead on 500 pieces of each at wholesale rates?


Thanks for your insight Doug and thanks for the link.  Rowan has said many times in the past that he likes to design with lesser known and good value tubes, it's ironic that the success of the project may undermine his goal in such a a way.  I fear you may be correct in your fears that we will see prices rise as the dealers see orders come thick and fast.

I think your idea of a bulk by is a good one.  Though he's not really a tube guy would Steve at Apex Jr. have the contacts etc to organise such a buy? He's a friend of the forum and a good guy in my dealings with him.

Cheers,
Ruairi
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Emperor Tomato Ketchup on July 02, 2008, 04:49:25 PM
I got my tubes from tubesandmore last week.  I got GE's (not 5 star) and Sylvanias.

-Chris
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 02, 2008, 06:11:35 PM
tubesandmore; I got 6BC8's in Sylvania's, and 5687's in Philips ECG.  

Some of their orange drop cap prices are better than Mouser, too.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Emperor Tomato Ketchup on July 03, 2008, 10:16:09 AM
I forgot to mention the Philips ECG 5687.  I got those too.  They had two different 5687's listed, so I tried them both since they were so cheep and I figured that I could always use spares.  The Philips ECG sells for $3.45.  The GE (also marked as JAN) sells for $7.05 each.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on July 04, 2008, 02:07:48 AM
In regards to the shorting and non shorting switches from page #4 of this thread. Neve EQ's seemed to use 4.7M or 6.8M ohm between switches as a way to eliminate clicks. Would that idea still work in this situation?

Math seems to say so, but I get the hard stuff and fumble sometime on the little.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: PimD on July 04, 2008, 04:37:14 AM
Quote from: "kazper"
In regards to the shorting and non shorting switches from page #4 of this thread. Neve EQ's seemed to use 4.7M or 6.8M ohm between switches as a way to eliminate clicks. Would that idea still work in this situation?

Math seems to say so, but I get the hard stuff and fumble sometime on the little.


It would be great if that would work.
Than we could use these switches.
http://www.uraltone.com/kauppa/product_info.php?products_id=1077
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on July 04, 2008, 07:54:51 AM
Quote from: "PimD"
Quote from: "kazper"
In regards to the shorting and non shorting switches from page #4 of this thread. Neve EQ's seemed to use 4.7M or 6.8M ohm between switches as a way to eliminate clicks. Would that idea still work in this situation?

Math seems to say so, but I get the hard stuff and fumble sometime on the little.


It would be great if that would work.
Than we could use these switches.
http://www.uraltone.com/kauppa/product_info.php?products_id=1077



These are exactly the same switches I use for my prototype. Haven´t finished soldering the resistors yet, but the quality of these switches is great.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mikeyB on July 04, 2008, 12:48:26 PM
Quote from: "bernbrue"
Quote from: "PimD"
Quote from: "kazper"
In regards to the shorting and non shorting switches from page #4 of this thread. Neve EQ's seemed to use 4.7M or 6.8M ohm between switches as a way to eliminate clicks. Would that idea still work in this situation?

Math seems to say so, but I get the hard stuff and fumble sometime on the little.


It would be great if that would work.
Than we could use these switches.
http://www.uraltone.com/kauppa/product_info.php?products_id=1077



These are exactly the same switches I use for my prototype. Haven´t finished soldering the resistors yet, but the quality of these switches is great.
regards
Bernd


Yeah - I been thinking of using these - I seem to recall about 2 years ago, one forum member was trying to organize a bulk buy direct from the manufacturer. IIRC price was €3 each for a quantity of 500
 :!:  :!:  :!:
I'll look through my backup computer for the info - cant find it by forum search. I think the problem was bad communication with the company so it never happened - but just maybe someone out there (or in here!) may have dealings with importing from Taiwan :?:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 04, 2008, 12:54:46 PM
Quote from: "kazper"
In regards to the shorting and non shorting switches from page #4 of this thread. Neve EQ's seemed to use 4.7M or 6.8M ohm between switches as a way to eliminate clicks. Would that idea still work in this situation?

no, this won't work here.
but I would expect rather mutes than clicks in the PoorMan using non shorting switches. shouldn't be a problem.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on July 06, 2008, 08:50:25 AM
stupid ? do i need four of each  [6bc8 5687} for a stereo poorman ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 06, 2008, 08:51:39 AM
yes, 8 tubes for a stereo unit
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 06, 2008, 07:46:58 PM
I have a few questions:

What is the difference between the 600/10K and 10K/600 transformers :?:

Aren't they the same thing... backwards???  :?  :oops:
------------------------------------

For those of us who are stuck & can't find (or afford) the 2x24 switches - will 2x12 be sufficient? Also, I ask you guys that already built this... Where is the sweet spot (as in the resistance)? This may help us determine how to set up the 2x12 switch.

------------------------------------

Last question:

for those of us who are working in a mixed (impedance) environment... like using modern 10k & vintage 600ohm equipment -

Do you think a 10k:10k will work on the input... like the LA2A MOD :idea:  :?:
Is there enough gain or drive on the front end of the PM670 to make up the difference (or loss of level) when using a 10k:10k input TX???

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 06, 2008, 10:40:47 PM
Quote from: "khstudio"
I have a few questions:

What is the difference between the 600/10K and 10K/600 transformers :?:

Aren't they the same thing... backwards???  :?  :oops:
------------------------------------

For those of us who are stuck & can't find (or afford) the 2x24 switches - will 2x12 be sufficient? Also, I ask you guys that already built this... Where is the sweet spot (as in the resistance)? This may help us determine how to set up the 2x12 switch.

------------------------------------

Last question:

for those of us who are working in a mixed (impedance) environment... like using modern 10k & vintage 600ohm equipment -

Do you think a 10k:10k will work on the input... like the LA2A MOD :idea:  :?:
Is there enough gain or drive on the front end of the PM670 to make up the difference (or loss of level) when using a 10k:10k input TX???

Thanks


The 'sweet spot' is going to be a matter of people's relative operating levels and level setting habits.  No one else will be able to make a clear call on this, other than to suggest a wide range.


I'm going to theorize on two things:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on July 06, 2008, 11:09:36 PM
24 steps is a matter of better fine tunability. 12 steps is fine as long as you measure 15K across the switch, no padding is needed. In 12 steps is what I'm using with no problems at all.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 07, 2008, 01:10:33 AM
Quote from: "analag"
24 steps is a matter of better fine tunability. 12 steps is fine as long as you measure 15K across the switch, no padding is needed. In 12 steps is what I'm using with no problems at all.

analag


Thanks analag & Doug  :thumb:

It's not needed right now but when you get a chance could you share with us how you set up your 2x12 switch?

Also,
What is the difference between the 600/10K and 10K/600 transformers?

I asked about the 10k:10k because my inserts on my boards are driven by TL074's... I may like to use the comp on them for some things & don't think the TL074's like driving loads lower than (aprox) 5k  :oops:
+ I have 2 new Cinemag 10k:10k's I'm not using.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on July 07, 2008, 02:20:25 AM
On the input side 1:1 ratio will reduce sensitivity or push up the threshold that the compressor will react to too high, and if 1:1 ratio is also used on the CV amp, then the sidechain signal won't be enough to do any useful gain reduction.
It would work, but it would be able to really squeeze your audio.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 07, 2008, 04:27:31 AM
I thought that might be the case, no problem :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 07, 2008, 04:38:10 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
What is the difference between the 600/10K and 10K/600 transformers :?:

Aren't they the same thing... backwards???  :?  :oops:

this has ben asked many times before, here is the answer:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28160&start=58
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 07, 2008, 04:56:16 AM
Sorry  :oops:  I'm usually pretty good about searching but missed that one.

Quote
What's the difference between XSM600/10K and XSM10K/600?
Wouldn't it be the same if you just wire them in reverse?


reaction from Brian "busy" Weston at Edcor:

Brian Weston :
I am sorry that it has taken so long to get back. I have been on the production line all the time. The 600/10K and 10K/600 have the same turns ratio but different winding turns. The are designed for each secondary impedance. They can be used backwards but for best sound I would order the transformer you need.

Each impedance has a number of windings that works best for it. For instance lets say you are designing a 1:1 ratio transformer. If the impedance is low, say around 150 ohms you might have a number of turns that works very well. But if your impedance is 10K then the number of turn would be much higher. Even though they are both 1:1 ratio the number of turns is different.

This is why EDCOR offers different 1:1 ratio matching transformers for the different types of impedance. You could use a 600/600 in place of a 10K/10K and it would sound fine. But you could not use a 150/150 in place of 10K/10K It would not sound very good. 600 and 10K are very close in ideal number of turns. So they can be used in reverse. Hope this helps.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 07, 2008, 10:19:14 PM
I think these heatsinks will work for the USA peeps
Please check and confirm

http://www.aavidthermalloy.com/cgi-bin/stdisp_print.pl?Pnum=529802b02500g

mouser part number: 532-529802B25G
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: guavatone on July 07, 2008, 11:11:09 PM
BTW how many amps are these babies per ch?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 08, 2008, 02:22:02 PM
Brenbrue, volker, analag ---

Question #1: Is the 15-0-15V secondary on the PS XFMR for the relays?  I've skimmed through the various threads but didnt find the answer.  

If so, then if you aren't using relay/bypass boards you don't need this winding... Correct?


Question #2:  I assume the Heaters off the PSU board are around 6.3Vdc.   When you connect the heaters to the PM660 board.. does the 6.3Vdc go through any components on the PM660 PCB?

The reason I ask is because I'm going to mount the Tubes on the back of the Chassis (like the old days), so I'm hoping to run the Heaters directly to the tube sockets from the PSU board.   I know, I know... its more work, more wiring, more connections, but more aesthetically what I want this unit to look like.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 08, 2008, 02:33:37 PM
David,

#1) you need -17V for bias (like in the original, and this was answered many times before :green: )
with no relay board you need at least one 15V - 18V winding

#2) the heater is 6.3V, and is only provided to the tubes on the PCB

you want to do it point to point, am I right ? :green:  :green:  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 08, 2008, 02:33:48 PM
Thought this would be good for people to have,  I contacted Goldpt about switches and they graciously gave the resistor calculations for 15K.
That said, Goldpt doesn't make 15K but you can purchase a blank Switch from them and stuff it yourself.  Not Cheap but they are nice switches and the hard part is done for you because the PCB.

These switches cost $108 each, although if you order 5 of them
the price falls to $97.20 each.

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/mvc_cp.jpg)

15K Calculation:

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/mvc_15k.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 08, 2008, 02:36:53 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]David,
#1) you need -17V for bias (like in the original and was answered many times before :green: )


Thanks and sorry I missed that again :green:

Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
you want to do it point to point, am I right ? :green:  :green:  :green:


exactly.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 08, 2008, 02:42:28 PM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
you want to do it point to point, am I right ? :green:  :green:  :green:

exactly.

ordering 5 / 3 is then very generous :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 08, 2008, 02:42:59 PM
I'm curious if anyone has any intention of using audio transformers other than Edcor?  if so "whatcha thinkin about using?"
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 08, 2008, 02:47:40 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "cannikin"
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
you want to do it point to point, am I right ? :green:  :green:  :green:

exactly.

ordering 5 / 3 is then very generous :green:


I'm going to stuff the PCB as normal with the tube sockets and all components.   I bought some surplus tube bases which I'll run wires to the chassis mount Tube sockets.   So I have the option of plugging the tube into the PCB (for testing) or on the Chassis.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Viitalahde on July 08, 2008, 02:52:59 PM
EDIT: damned double posts!  :mad:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Viitalahde on July 08, 2008, 02:55:12 PM
Regarding stepped attenuators..

There's just no way you need -62dB from an attenuator in your compressor. You're limiting yourself with that.

With the Analag opto, I went for -24dB total in both input and output at 1dB steps, which is way more than enough. I could've used 0.5dB steps, but no use for that.

For driving the sidechain I used 2dB steps which is fine too, and you can tweak the 1dB with the input attenuator.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 08, 2008, 03:00:57 PM
the rotary switches

the first rotary switch is the "Input" or "Gain" switch.
dual deck is necessary, shorting preferred, and the more positions the better. over all resistance is 15K. matching the resistors for each step on both decks is a very good idea.
how to calculate the resistors ?

if you want it linear this is easy: 15000 / (number of positions -1) = single resistor in R
(you need (number of positions - 1) resistors of the same value)

you would better want it exponential (or log in potentiometer language).
it took some time to figure this out, but with some help I was able to do an Excell sheet to calculate the resistors for emulating a real log potentiometer.
fill in the desired steps you want: Log Pot to Switch Excell Sheet (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/LogPotToSwitch.xls)

you may want it in dB steps (like me). at the end it is a series attenuator.
my prototype has 18dB of gain, thus I will do one dB steps on an Elma, stopped to 23 steps, going from -4dB to +18dB.


the second rotary switch is the "Threshold" or "Compression" switch.
same as the first one, but the dB step attenuator doesn't make sense here. Lin or Log, your choice.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 08, 2008, 03:05:02 PM
I'm off to this forum now, have to listen to a mastering a finish forum member did for me :grin:  :wink:  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Larrchild on July 08, 2008, 05:34:22 PM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Thought this would be good for people to have,  I contacted Goldpt about switches and they graciously gave the resistor calculations for 15K.
That said, Goldpt doesn't make 15K but you can purchase a blank Switch from them and stuff it yourself.  Not Cheap but they are nice switches and the hard part is done for you because the PCB.

These switches cost $108 each, although if you order 5 of them
the price falls to $97.20 each.

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/mvc_cp.jpg)

15K Calculation:

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/mvc_15k.jpg)


Those things are scary-good. They tracked like .2dB and were flat up to many megahertz!

I'd suggest hand-dialing the resistor values of the threshold pot. My Goldpoint version using a stock audio-taper needs more "in-between" points near the top. Next batch will be custom from them. That could just be my personal taste, but it's probably worth doing if you are not ordering a pre-made unit. Find the area you use a lot and spread it out a little. As Jaakko says, you can use 2dB on the output and 1dB steps on the input to get it anywhere you need, so they are probably ok as they are.

btw, I think my stuff is in his "hall of fame" over at the Goldpoint site. :)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 08, 2008, 05:45:43 PM
Quote from: "Larrchild"

btw, I think my stuff is in his "hall of fame" over at the Goldpoint site. :)


I didn't realize that was your gear.... wow.... hows it doing in the market?
its amazing unit!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Larrchild on July 08, 2008, 05:51:29 PM
Well they look great and I sell every one I build, but they are a painful build, lol. I have spent quite a while redesigning for mass production, while retaining elegance.

It's all packaging changes these days. Schematic has remained the same for years.=)

It's good to make things that people other than you can build, or you become a prisoner to your own idea, ha!

Bring on the CNC robots!

BTW, I meant to say the output attenuator could remain stock, but the input might benefit from 1dB steps as Jakko said.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: fazeka on July 08, 2008, 06:29:18 PM
Hi Analag (or anyone else who may have an answer),

I read somewhere that Fairchild when building the originals removed the diode bridge from the Simpson VU meters, essentially making them DC milliammeters:

Fairchild 670 meter (http://www.groupdiy.com/FORUM/viewtopic.php?t=27435&start=7) thread

My question: can I use my pair of Simpson model 127 1 mA DC milliammeters instead of VU meters for the PM670?

Best,
Chris
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 08, 2008, 07:08:43 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]the rotary switches

the first rotary switch is the "Input" or "Gain" switch.
dual deck is necessary, shorting preferred, and the more positions the better. over all resistance is 15K.  
15K ohm per section? or total?  I'm assuming per section, meaning 30K measuring both sections
Quote
my prototype has 18dB of gain, thus I will do one dB steps on an Elma, stopped to 23 steps, going from -4dB to +18dB.


Ah, good info.  18 dB total gain.  So, 1 dB steps gets you below unity gain.  And for those asking about low noise tubes, that's the amount of maximum possible gain you are worrying about in regards to noise contribution.

Regarding the sweet spot of the 'Threshold' switch; it appears then that a low level audio signal could receive an 18 dB boost in the audio amp, plus whatever boost is available in the side chain amp for driving compression.  So, if you put a typical +18 dBm FS signal into the unit, how much might one wish to turn down the input, and likewise compensate with the side chain gain?  Or, is the side chain fully capable (I imagine so) of knocking down the gain below the clip point successfully?  Those are the questions for all to consider (when second guessing the designer :razz:  :oops: ).   I imagine (22) 1 dB steps on each is more than enough to wrangle the signal several different ways.  

Sorry to make more work so early; figure I'd throw out these musings to help folks get a grasp on what these attenuators do, and how it relates to their systems.    I'm used to dealing with things like Collins 26U's and Gates SA-39's with 2 dB/step input and output ladder attenuators and 55 dB wide open gain.   They have fixed thresholds, so the input attenuator is the whole deal, and the output is for setting recorded level.  It's normal to run that variety at -26 input and -24 output; that won't apply to this design.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on July 08, 2008, 09:07:01 PM
could this setup work? done for 15K?

http://www.penguinlovers.net/audio/Attenuator.html
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: codered on July 08, 2008, 09:10:49 PM
Earlier on in the thread,SilentArts was suggesting checking out the audio path in the original schematic.I was kindof stuck in the first step trying to figure out which transformers are used for the M-S seperation. :sad:
 Then I moved on to the attenuators-the original used a bridged T configuration and we are using a regular potentiometer but just stepped and the dual deck is for the dual mono operation.The idea behind using the rotary switch is to have good tracking between the channels by choosing closely matched resistors.Could anybody tell me if my understanding is correct.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: guavatone on July 08, 2008, 10:36:17 PM
I would be willing to sell folks some of those Elmas if we had enough orders.  Maybe someone can fab the PCB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: outoftune on July 08, 2008, 11:23:44 PM
what size case will work best for the pm660? is 2U enough or is 3U necessary?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on July 09, 2008, 12:31:37 AM
Quote from: "cannikin"
I'm curious if anyone has any intention of using audio transformers other than Edcor?  if so "whatcha thinkin about using?"


David, yes, I'm hoping to experiment with a Lundahl (don't know which one yet) for the inputs.  I hope to compare them to the Edcors in the same chassis and then decide.  I'll stick with the XSMs for output.

But my build progress is pathetically slow, I don't know when I'll have time...

What about you?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 09, 2008, 01:56:41 AM
I think I might do sowter or cinemag on input, and Heyboer on the output.  Not sure though... also depends how much $$ I have at the time of purchase
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 09, 2008, 02:47:30 AM
Quote from: "codered"

 Then I moved on to the attenuators-the original used a bridged T configuration and we are using a regular potentiometer but just stepped and the dual deck is for the dual mono operation.The idea behind using the rotary switch is to have good tracking between the channels by choosing closely matched resistors.Could anybody tell me if my understanding is correct.


I am assuming these are dual attenuators for PP circuits, located on the secondary of the inputs, center tap to B-/ground; look at the input pot on an Altec 436B or C.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 09, 2008, 03:29:21 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
I am assuming these are dual attenuators for PP circuits, located on the secondary of the inputs, center tap to B-/ground; look at the input pot on an Altec 436B or C.

exactly
 :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:

and yes, 15K each deck
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on July 09, 2008, 01:09:05 PM
Quote from: "cannikin"
I think I might do sowter or cinemag on input, and Heyboer on the output.  Not sure though... also depends how much $$ I have at the time of purchase


I hear you on the $$ front...  plus lack of time... and we don't even have boards yet....  I am getting the Edcors so I'll have them in any case, they're cheap and may be useful elsewhere if I don't use them all...

Do you know which Sowter, Cinemag and Heyboer models you're thinking to try?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Vas on July 09, 2008, 08:13:23 PM
Quote from: "tommypiper"
Quote from: "cannikin"
I think I might do sowter or cinemag on input, and Heyboer on the output.  Not sure though... also depends how much $$ I have at the time of purchase


I hear you on the $$ front...  plus lack of time... and we don't even have boards yet....  I am getting the Edcors so I'll have them in any case, they're cheap and may be useful elsewhere if I don't use them all...

Do you know which Sowter, Cinemag and Heyboer models you're thinking to try?

hi there!
i was wondering for edcor alternatives too!
and i have some spare sowters(dla2a leftovers it seems they sould work!)
anyway,any info appreciated!
best regards
b.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on July 10, 2008, 06:32:01 AM
Any more info on the pcb connectors needed for the project? And the heater resistor?

Im trying to buy components before the pcbs arrive, and at the same time pick up some forgotten parts for my d-aoc. If possible, id like to save on shipping costs ordering at the same time.

If not, thats just fine too, im just wondering.
I can wait. :green:

/J
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 10, 2008, 11:55:25 AM
Quote from: "tommypiper"
Quote from: "cannikin"
I think I might do sowter or cinemag on input, and Heyboer on the output.  Not sure though... also depends how much $$ I have at the time of purchase


I hear you on the $$ front...  plus lack of time... and we don't even have boards yet....  I am getting the Edcors so I'll have them in any case, they're cheap and may be useful elsewhere if I don't use them all...

Do you know which Sowter, Cinemag and Heyboer models you're thinking to try?


I'll probably use the Sowter 4383 La2a inputs or CInemag CMMI-8C.  I'm having Heyboer Build me 2 more outputs (because I already have 2).  Not sure though I might go with input Edcors due to $$ flow.  To me this project is the "BIG Kahuna" so I might as well blow out the cash and get expensive transformers....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 10, 2008, 12:53:39 PM
You guys postulating the use of other iron might wish to consider whether or not the Edcor center-taps are integral to every position, or not.  We haven't seen it.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 10, 2008, 01:08:50 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
consider whether or not the Edcor center-taps are integral to every position, or not.


time for cannikin to learn something new. :thumb:

Doug please explain more of what your thinking...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 10, 2008, 01:17:25 PM
Only that one must plan for other iron having center taps, in the absence of knowledge concerning their usage in this project.   For instance, the Sta-level doesn't use CT iron on the input, nor does the 436A.  But the 436B and C do, as do most other PP limiters.  We don't know what's going on here yet.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 10, 2008, 01:45:03 PM
CT is used on both 10K/600, but not on the two 600/10K
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 10, 2008, 02:18:04 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]CT is used on both 10K/600, but not on the two 600/10K


there ya go!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: edanderson on July 10, 2008, 03:27:23 PM
volker,

could we get some physical info on the PCBs, so that we can start laying out cases, etc?  where the mounting holes are and so on.

ed
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 10, 2008, 03:37:32 PM
Yeah Volker what the hell is taking so long???

 :wink:  :wink:  :cool:  :cool:  :grin:  :grin:

(im just kiddin')

Heres a List of most of the stuff from mouser PSU and Pm660 - I'm building a dual unit and ordered extras, Use at your own risk, I usually never get everything (or all the right parts) on the first order:

 4    647-LGQ2W221MHSA              4        8.930           35.72
        Nichicon Snap-In Alu
        .                  
 4    273-22K-RC                    4        0.100            0.40
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        22Kohms 1%          

     4    273-10K-RC                    4        0.100            0.40
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        10Kohms 1%          

     2    273-4.7K-RC                   2        0.100            0.20
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        4.7Kohms 1%        

     4    273-470-RC                    4        0.100            0.40
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        470ohms 1%          

    10    273-330-RC                   10        0.100            1.00
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        330ohms 1%          

     8    273-47-RC                     8        0.100            0.80
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        47ohms 1%          

     2    610-2N6107                    2        0.780            1.56
        Central Semi Power T
        PNP Med Power      

     8    78-1N4148                     8        0.030            0.24
        Vishay Semiconductor
        100V Io/150mA T/R  

     4    505-MKP410/250/10             4       12.660           50.64
        WIMA Polypropylene F
        250V 10uF 10%      

     2    505-MKS21.5/63/5              2        1.960            3.92
        WIMA Polyester Film
        63V 1.5uF 5%        

     2    505-MKS2.022/63/10            2        0.230            0.46
        WIMA Polyester Film
        63V .022uF 10%      

     2    647-UVR2V470MHA               2        2.380            4.76
        Nichicon Radial Alum
        350V 47uF 16X35.5  

     6    647-UVR2V101MHD               6        1.780           10.68
        Nichicon Radial Alum
        350V 100uF 18X40    

     4    647-URZ1E472MHD               4        2.530           10.12
        Nichicon Radial Alum
        25V 4700uF 18X25    

     8    647-UHE1H102MHD               8        0.980            7.84
        Nichicon Low Impedan
        50V 1000uF 12.5X40  

     4    647-UPM1H101MPD6              4        0.620            2.48
        Nichicon Low Impedan
        50V 100uF 10X15    

     4    647-USR1V100MDD               4        0.240            0.96
        Nichicon 7mm Radial
        35V 10uF 4X7        

     4    594-5083NW47R00J              4        0.320            1.28
        Vishay/BC Components
        2watts 47ohms 5%    

     7    273-221K-RC                   7        0.100            0.70
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        221Kohms 1%        

     5    273-182K-RC                   5        0.100            0.50
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        182Kohms 1%        

     5    273-150K-RC                   5        0.100            0.50
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        150Kohms 1%        

     5    273-560-RC                    5        0.100            0.50
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        560ohms 1%          

     5    273-475-RC                    0        0.100            0.00
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        475ohms 1%          

     7    273-120-RC                    7        0.100            0.70
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        120ohms 1%          

     5    273-121K-RC                   5        0.100            0.50
        Xicon 1/2W 1% Metal
        121Kohms 1%        

   100    534-2027                    100        0.250           25.00
        Keystone Spacers and
        RND .187X.500 ALUM  

     4    505-MKS4.1/630/10P            4        0.740            2.96
        WIMA Polyester Film
        630V .1uF 10%      

     4    505-MKS2.1/63/10              4        0.230            0.92
        WIMA Polyester Film
        63V .1uF 10%        

     6    652-3296Y-1-502LF             6        2.200           13.20
        Bourns Multi-Turn Tr
        3/8" 5Kohms Sealed  

    40    583-1N4007-B                 40        0.030            1.20
        Rectron Rectifiers -
        Vr/1000V Io/1A BULK

     2    512-1N4747A                   2        0.080            0.16
        Fairchild Zener Diod
        20V 1W ZENER 5%    

     2    78-1N4764A-TAP                2        0.050            0.10
        Vishay Semiconductor
        100 Volt 1.0W 5%    

     2    512-MPSA42                    2        0.130            0.26
        Fairchild Small Sign
        NPN Transistor      

     2    512-MPSA92                    2        0.150            0.30
        Fairchild Small Sign
        PNP Transistor      

     2    844-IRF820PBF                 2        0.840            1.68
        Vishay IR Single-Gat
        N-Chan 500V 2.5 Amp

     1    512-IRF840B                   1        1.700            1.70
        Fairchild MOSFETs  
        500V N-Channel B-FET

     1    512-LM317T                    1        0.430            0.43
        Fairchild Linear Reg
        TO-220 1.5A ADJ VREG

     1    512-LM337T                    1        0.550            0.55
        Fairchild Linear Reg
        1.5A Neg Adj Vol Reg

     1    625-GBPC1202-E4               1        4.720            4.72
        Vishay Semiconductor
        12 Amp 200 Volt    

     4    532-529802B25G                4        1.380            5.52
        Aavid Thermalloy Hea
        TO-220, VERT 3.7 TR
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 10, 2008, 03:46:40 PM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Yeah Volker what the hell is taking so long???

your orders and payments (incomplete, wrong, without address, no forum name etc) eat all of my spare time at the moment. :?
I'm sure I have posted the PCB dimensions before, btw ... :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 10, 2008, 03:49:49 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "cannikin"
Yeah Volker what the hell is taking so long???

your orders and payments (incomplete, wrong, without address, no forum name etc) eat all of my spare time at the moment. :?


Damn all those who can't follow directions
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 10, 2008, 08:04:55 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "emrr"
I am assuming these are dual attenuators for PP circuits, located on the secondary of the inputs, center tap to B-/ground; look at the input pot on an Altec 436B or C.

exactly
 :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:

and yes, 15K each deck


OK, got it.  How critical is that 15k value?  I was hoping I could go with a 50k dual pot, at least at first.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 11, 2008, 09:19:06 AM
Analag, is it possible to substitute 5687 with ECC82 or 12BH7?
BTW where is the schematics of the PM660?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on July 11, 2008, 09:26:29 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
BTW where is the schematics of the PM660?

Read the first post in the PCB order thread (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28175).

JDB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 11, 2008, 09:58:00 AM
Ahhh, yes, i skipped that accidentally . Cool, i ordered the PCB already ;-)
What about substitutes?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on July 11, 2008, 10:39:58 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
What about substitutes?

The tubes you mentioned are from a totally different world. You should stick to the tube recommended for this project.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 11, 2008, 12:51:38 PM
Quote from: "bernbrue"
Quote from: "Moby"
What about substitutes?

The tubes you mentioned are from a totally different world. You should stick to the tube recommended for this project.
regards
Bernd

I heard that from the friend of mine but anyway i will stick in to recommended ones  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on July 12, 2008, 07:24:14 PM
Quote from: "Moby"
Ahhh, yes, i skipped that accidentally . Cool, i ordered the PCB already ;-)
What about substitutes?


Nope. Even the pinout is different.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on July 12, 2008, 07:48:21 PM
im putting an order in for some d-aoc parts. i'm including the needed molex connectors in the order. am i correct to assume the pm660 will also be using the same type of connectors?  if so what types(spacing) do i need to order for one mono pm660. I'd like to order them together
the d-aoc used  2pin 2.5 mm spacing, 3 pin 2.5mm spacing 0,2.5mm,5mm. and a 2 pin with 5mm spacing. i have no board yet or i would figure it out myself. any help is appreciated.thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on July 12, 2008, 08:38:08 PM
I think you mean millimeters !!!!


 :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on July 12, 2008, 09:15:34 PM
yes.  mm  i'll edit above thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 13, 2008, 05:45:42 AM
one mono audio PCB uses 3 x 2pin and 7 x 3pin Molex connectors
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: fazeka on July 13, 2008, 05:47:05 AM
Bump (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=102)

Analag? Anyone?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 13, 2008, 06:03:05 AM
try it - could work. I think Bernd tried different meters, but he is on vacation.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 13, 2008, 09:07:58 AM
Guys, what you think about substituting 2N6107 with BD244B or BD244C ?
I'm asking because original is not available in my area  :?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 14, 2008, 02:16:49 PM
A vendor sent me the substitute tubes 6BZ8 instead of the specified 6BC8.  Does anyone know how equivalent these are for this application?  I don't see a data sheet with characteristic curves for the 6BZ8.  Thanks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on July 14, 2008, 02:20:56 PM
They're the same
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 14, 2008, 11:48:04 PM
Quote from: "noulou"
They're the same


Well, I know they're listed as substitutes.  However, I'd like to be able to validate how close they are to each other.  The data sheets I've seen aren't exactly the same for the two - even for a given manufacturer.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on July 15, 2008, 05:24:38 AM
6BZ8 works just fine in mine.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on July 15, 2008, 07:19:52 AM
I'm confused with these wima values , is their some kind of chart that i could look at to pick an equivalent value from. I fear i am wasting money.

bless up

ska1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 15, 2008, 08:10:23 AM
It's cool to find as much as possible substitutes  :grin:  So, I ask again (since I still don't have a schemo and don't have a clue about) is it possible to substitute 2N6107 with BD244B or BD244C ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 15, 2008, 08:23:36 AM
Quote from: "analag"
6BZ8 works just fine in mine.

analag


Excellent.  That's what I was hoping to hear.  Thanks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: synthi on July 15, 2008, 08:39:05 AM
what about 6BQ7 (or 6BQ7A)? google shown this as a 6BC8 sub and I have some lying around...

 :?:

Synthi
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 15, 2008, 08:49:39 AM
Quote from: "skal1"
I'm confused with these wima values

what is confusing with the values ? :?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 15, 2008, 08:51:19 AM
I think that 6BQ7 is direct replacement too. Please confirm  :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on July 15, 2008, 08:52:41 AM
every thing i see at maplins ends in pf


skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 15, 2008, 08:55:31 AM
Quote from: "skal1"
every thing i see at maplins ends in pf

1µF = 1000nF, 1nF = 1000pF
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on July 15, 2008, 08:59:42 AM
Thank [silent:arts] still confused. so what is this value in pf 2,2nf please.

bless up


skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mikeyB on July 15, 2008, 09:00:42 AM
Quote from: "skal1"
every thing i see at maplins ends in pf


skal1


You won't find much at maplins for this project (and many others) !
Try farnell.com and rswww.com. These 2 suppliers will stock most bits you want such as resistors, caps semis etc. The BIG red wimas are at mouser or I think Volker said Conrad had them
Have you downloaded the parts lists from page 1? Most of the supplier codes are there

Hope this helps :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 15, 2008, 09:03:17 AM
Quote from: "skal1"
every thing i see at maplins ends in pf


skal1

Will you be confused if I tell you that I'm 1830mm tall ;-)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on July 15, 2008, 09:03:51 AM
Quote from: "mikeyB"


You won't find much at maplins for this project (and many others) !
Try farnell.com and rswww.com. These 2 suppliers will stock most bits you want such as resistors, caps semis etc. The BIG red wimas are at mouser or I think Volker said Conrad had them
Have you downloaded the parts lists from page 1? Most of the supplier codes are there

Hope this helps :thumb:
Quote


THANKS :grin:



SKAL1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 15, 2008, 09:37:59 AM
Substitute again... 1N4764 100v zener, can be zd100 or zy100?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 15, 2008, 09:52:35 AM
ZD100 is fine, the other Zener can be a ZD20
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 15, 2008, 10:18:07 AM
Quote from: "synthi"
what about 6BQ7 (or 6BQ7A)? google shown this as a 6BC8 sub and I have some lying around...


I'm looking at the curves for the 6BQ7 and the 6BC8, and it looks like they're somewhat different. You may have to play with the operating points to get it to work the way you want.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 15, 2008, 10:19:20 AM
Quote from: "kafka"
Quote from: "synthi"
what about 6BQ7 (or 6BQ7A)? google shown this as a 6BC8 sub and I have some lying around...


I'm looking at the curves for the 6BQ7 and the 6BC8, and it looks like they're somewhat different.  You may have to play with the operating points to get it to work the way you want.

Will be nice if Analag can put that in the simulator :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 15, 2008, 10:21:42 AM
When I look carefully, they look similar enough to give it a try.  It's kind of hard to tell exactly how close they'll be.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 15, 2008, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]the rotary switches
you would better want it exponential (or log in potentiometer language).
it took some time to figure this out, but with some help I was able to do an Excell sheet to calculate the resistors for emulating a real log potentiometer.
fill in the desired steps you want: Log Pot to Switch Excell Sheet (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/LogPotToSwitch.xls)


Hey, Volker.  Any chance you could unprotect this, or increase the max # of steps to something like 100?  I'm doing a coarse/fine control adaptation, and it would simplify things if I could use your spreadsheet.  Thanks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 15, 2008, 02:14:35 PM
send you an email
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 15, 2008, 02:42:17 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]send you an email


Excellent!  Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on July 15, 2008, 03:00:39 PM
The logToPot is bloody marvelous!!
tried to make one a while ago and failed miserably
thanks :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on July 15, 2008, 06:04:01 PM
Here is is a look see at the signal flow of the PM660.
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PM660-BlockDiagram.pdf


analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on July 15, 2008, 07:21:08 PM
Volker, sorry to ask again about the molex connectors but which 2 pin connector does the poor man use?  the smaller 2.5mm spacing or the larger 5mm spacing like the one use to connect the ac to the d-aoc?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 16, 2008, 04:10:56 AM
Quote from: "seavote"
Volker, sorry to ask again about the molex connectors but which 2 pin connector does the poor man use?  the smaller 2.5mm spacing or the larger 5mm spacing like the one use to connect the ac to the d-aoc?

the small white ones, 2.54mm spacing.
and one 6pole 5.08mm screw terminal.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 16, 2008, 06:16:51 AM
Block Diagram and Component Placements for the PCBs (incl. dimensions) added to the first post in this thread.

PM660 Block Diagram (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PM660-BlockDiagram.pdf)
PM660 Component Placement and Dimensions (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PM660_rev01-SilkScreen.pdf)
PSU660 Component Placement and Dimensions (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU660_rev02-SilkScreen.pdf)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 16, 2008, 08:25:07 AM
Volker, I never saw  a schematic of your PM PSU but it seems that diode bridge has no capacitors across diodes. Usually  0.1uF film bypass capacitors...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 16, 2008, 08:30:35 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
Volker, I never saw  a schematic of your PM PSU but it seems that diode bridge has no capacitors across diodes. Usually  0.1uF film bypass capacitors...

you are right, there are no diode bridge bypass caps.
I know some manufactures do it, but I still can't see the reason why.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 16, 2008, 08:43:55 AM
Simply, capacitors are helpful  :wink:
here's the pic with just full diode bridge
http://really.slacking.net/~modat7/howto/circuits/Scope_DiodeBridge-Full-2.jpg
and bridge with caps across  :wink:
http://really.slacking.net/~modat7/howto/circuits/Scope_DiodeBridge_0.1uFBypassCaps-2.jpg
But no probs it's possible to add caps on the down side of PCB ...
Title: Heat Sink Part Numbers - Mouser
Post by: kafka on July 16, 2008, 12:49:00 PM
I think I have the correct Mouser part numbers for the heat sinks here.  Would someone care to take a look to verify?  They're all found on page 1880 (http://www.mouser.com/catalog/634/1880.pdf).

PM660 Q1     707-411320B25 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Ntt=707-411320B25)      12.7x34.9x50.8

PSU670 IC1,IC2     707-411910B25 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Ntt=707-411910B25)     12.7x35.0x25.4

PSU670 Q1,Q2     707-411621B25 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Ntt=707-411621B25)     25x41.6x50.8

Only PSU670 IC1&2 are spec'd exactly, because that was the only one I had exact measurements on.  The others were put at 50.8mm high because that was the most efficient heatsink in that series.  If a smaller one works go for it.  Similarly, IC1&2 could also use the same one I've identified for PM660 Q1.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 16, 2008, 01:36:32 PM
from your description I would swap the heatsinks from the PM660 Q1 with the PSU670 IC1,IC2.
the PM660 Q1 doesn't get that hot, the smaller one (25.4) is fine.
the PSU670 IC1,IC2 will depend on how many Lamps or Relays you want to use (and at which voltage) from the "+17V"
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: delaymix on July 16, 2008, 08:39:59 PM
One question, about the resistance heaters, do for a stereo unit is correct to use an R = 1R5 and 50-w?, What specific situation should be considered other values of resistance and power?

Thanks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: codered on July 18, 2008, 02:33:49 AM
anybody know where I can find small indicator lamps like the original

TIA
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 18, 2008, 03:57:42 AM
Quote from: "delaymix"
One question, about the resistance heaters, do for a stereo unit is correct to use an R = 1R5 and 50-w?, What specific situation should be considered other values of resistance and power?


In theory it is 2R for Mono (4 tubes), and 1R for Stereo (8 tubes)
in theory 10W for Mono, but the 11W resistor I used just went too hot.

BUT it seams to vary with the tubes, the Power Transformer and of course the mains power voltage.
I have ordered some 25W and 50W resistors, will post some pics and tests when I'm back from vacation.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: syn on July 20, 2008, 08:34:28 AM
Hi there
             I have those Stancor 4:1 transformers  used as line inputs in MCI jh series desks. Can i use them in the 10k:600r position(s)?

pri  dc resistance:~950ohm
sec dc resistance:~58ohm
pri  ~ 14H
sec ~0.9H

Thank you
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on July 20, 2008, 01:18:32 PM
What is the current carrying capacity of the windings or the wattage of the transformer. This is the reason I chose Edcor's XSM line in this app. While we can experiment with the input transformers I recommend the XSM for all outputs

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: syn on July 20, 2008, 02:46:58 PM
Quote from: "analag"
What is the current carrying capacity of the windings or the wattage of the transformer. analag


I'm not sure.  Any ideas how to measure this? I was thinking of using them in the side chain...I'll get edcore  for the outputs for sure.... or equivalents...

Thanks
Title: Re: Alternative switches
Post by: rrs on July 20, 2008, 09:54:26 PM
Quote from: "kazper"
Found some more part numbers that I wanted to pass on as possibilities.

12 pos switch for Attack

www.alliedelec.com
Mfr Part#: 71BD30-01-1-AJN
Allied Stock#: 948-7247
$13.65

Inexpensive 12 pos 2 deck for Gain and Threshold for those trying to save a few$

Mfr Part#: 71BD30-02-1-AJN
Allied Stock#: 948-7249
$17.52


I have purchased these for Attack, Gain and Threshold, should arrive this week. What would be a option for the bypass ?

Also looks like I need to solder some resistors to these suckers. Is anyone able to help regarding values and working out where the go??

Hope I havent made this too hard for myself.
Title: Re: Alternative switches
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 21, 2008, 04:43:24 AM
Quote from: "rrs"
What would be a option for the bypass ?

using the Bypass PCBs you need to power them to let Audio pass (this is more a "compressor In" switch). any "on" switch will work.

Quote from: "rrs"
Also looks like I need to solder some resistors to these suckers. Is anyone able to help regarding values and working out where the go??

look at page one in this thread, there is a link regarding the switches and resistor values.
Title: SIFAM RETRO AL20SQ vs SIFAM AL29WF CLASSIC METERS
Post by: LeperKing on July 21, 2008, 06:47:29 AM
Folks,

I've noticed that the vast majority of people are ordering the cases with the cutouts for the smaller SIFAM RETRO AL20SQ.  I personally prefer the look of the larger SIFAM AL29WF CLASSIC METERS as they fillout the front panel better, and they'll match the colour of the panel as well.

Is there any technical reasons to pick one meter over the other?

Thanks,
LK.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on July 21, 2008, 04:43:43 PM
Some more attenuator thoughts.  Rowan says he's using 12 position stepped attenuators with no problems, but here's a few more options to coax a groan out of him.  

Let's say one had some 600 T's sitting around.  Any reason not to use them on the primaries of the GR and SC amps, with some fixed resistances on the secondaries, rather than doing all that dual stepped wiring?  

Or, stick with dual stepped atten on the GR amp input secondary as prescribed, but use dual pot on the SC amp.  That would do away with the 'ultra-precision balance' factor in the side chain, but not in the audio amp path.  Considering the number of limiters that use dual pots in the audio path position, I'm not sure how much difference the average punk rock engineer would notice with them only in the SC amp.
Title: Re: SIFAM RETRO AL20SQ vs SIFAM AL29WF CLASSIC METERS
Post by: abby normal on July 21, 2008, 05:17:18 PM
Quote from: "LeperKing"
Folks,

I've noticed that the vast majority of people are ordering the cases with the cutouts for the smaller SIFAM RETRO AL20SQ.  I personally prefer the look of the larger SIFAM AL29WF CLASSIC METERS as they fillout the front panel better, and they'll match the colour of the panel as well.

Is there any technical reasons to pick one meter over the other?

Thanks,
LK.


I posted this in another thread but if you were looking for an original look,

Quote from: "abby normal"
I was just checking out my diagram of the original's dimensions,

If we were to go off the exact dimensions of the original's front panel (not the whole rack) height we would need a 5U Par-Metal type rack unit (original height @ 8.375" x 16" without ears, 5U would be 8.73" x 19", but the original panel did not have the rack ears included in those dimensions, the par-metal without ears would be 16.5" so it would be a pretty close fit).



 :cool:
Title: Re: Alternative switches
Post by: rrs on July 21, 2008, 06:59:00 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]

Quote from: "rrs"
Also looks like I need to solder some resistors to these suckers. Is anyone able to help regarding values and working out where the go??

look at page one in this thread, there is a link regarding the switches and resistor values.


Log Pot to Switch Excell Sheet (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/LogPotToSwitch.xls)

Thanks  :thumb:

I have the 12 pos 2 deck for threshold and gain  Here (http://www.alliedelec.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?SKU=9487249&MPN=71BD30-02-1-AJN&R=9487249&SEARCH=9487249&DESC=71BD30-02-1-AJN). So just wondering how to approach that (with the 2 deck) ? Also what wattage do these resistors need to be?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 22, 2008, 03:17:34 AM
David,
the second deck need the same resistor values as the first deck, ideally matched pairs.
1/4 or 1/2 watt is fine
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 22, 2008, 06:08:59 AM
HEATER PSU

the Heater PSU is a rectified, unregulated one.
the bridge rectifier should be a 12A or more, mounted off board to the chassis. they look like this:
(http://www1.conrad.de/xl/5000_5999/5000/5010/5011/501107_RB_00_FB.EPS.jpg)
behind the rectifier we have:
(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PSU3.png)
we want to be as near as possible to 6.3V, this is done by the value of R15.
again: this resistor is mounted off board and gets very hot. a 50W resistor is a good idea, something like this:
(http://images.conrad.de/xl/4000_4999/4200/4210/4214/421421_BB_00_FB.EPS.jpg)
now, what value do we need ?
according to my data sheets:
6BC8 @ 6.3V = 400mA
5687 @ 6.3V = 900mA
this results in 2.6A heater consumption EACH channel.
now you can do the math :green:

one problem we have with the "right" value of R15:
- mains voltage will vary
- the secondary of each transformer will vary
- the consumption of each tube will vary

best thing is to have a few values handy to test it.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on July 23, 2008, 05:45:36 AM
Quick question. Would it be stupid to try and fit a stereo unit inside a 2u case? It a 360mm deep standard case from robeshop.

Of course with some ventilation.

I have limited rackspace over here.

Thanks!
/J
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 23, 2008, 05:57:13 AM
I have limited rackspace too, but a stereo Poor Man in a 2u case is a no no
- if you don't want to put fans inside.

I would go 3u with a 1u ventilation space over it ...

the 5687 get really hot (900mA heater each ...)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on July 24, 2008, 05:17:35 AM
Ok, i guess i have to sacrifice some rackspace then! Thanks!
/J
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on July 24, 2008, 10:17:49 AM
Guys, does stereo unit has "stereo mode" or just dual mono?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on July 24, 2008, 10:19:54 AM
I have a question.

Would this be a good cap instead of the 10uF 250V Wima (audio boards)

LINK (http://www.banzaieffects.com/Audiophile-MKP-10uF-pr-26164.html)

(http://www.banzaieffects.com/files/images_detailed/d_16358.gif)

And why do we need the optional lytics for? (BOM)[/url]
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Emperor Tomato Ketchup on July 24, 2008, 11:29:48 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
6BC8 @ 6.3V = 400mA
5687 @ 6.3V = 900mA
this results in 2.6A heater consumption EACH channel.
now you can do the math :green:


Damn, now I need to run a new dedicated breaker to my studio just to turn my stereo unit on!

So I should probably drop my idea to do a 8 channel unit in a 2RU chassis?  :green:

The Poor Man already has a wikipedia page:

Poor Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy-Bake_Oven)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 24, 2008, 12:37:30 PM
Quote from: "Moby"
Guys, does stereo unit has "stereo mode" or just dual mono?

you can stereo link them

Quote from: "Purusha"
Would this be a good cap instead of the 10uF 250V Wima (audio boards)

no, we want the WIMA MKP4

Quote from: "Purusha"
And why do we need the optional lytics for?

you don't need them, they are - optional
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on July 24, 2008, 03:26:01 PM
Volker, what kind of rotary switch can we use for 6 step TIME CONSTANT?

Cheap 2x6 Lorlin maybe?  :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 24, 2008, 03:28:06 PM
yes
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on July 25, 2008, 02:21:07 PM
Hi there....
could someone tell me if sifam s25 could suite the poorman??Volker??Analg???
thx for help , I need this info to tell Tat Purusha S25 dimensions to cutout my case...
thx.
Edit: S25 is 1mA
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 25, 2008, 02:49:32 PM
Quote from: "RedNoise"
Hi there....
could someone tell me if sifam s25 could suite the poorman??Volker??Analg???
thx for help , I need this info to tell Tat Purusha S25 dimensions to cutout my case...
thx.
Edit: S25 is 1mA

sorry, I can't test everything in front.
the specs are VU, which does work.
if you use anything else it is on your own risk.
thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on July 25, 2008, 02:59:37 PM
thx for answer Volker , I understand you're busy...
As I'm noob I just asked if someone could gave me his advice...
btw , thx.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kafka on July 25, 2008, 03:27:00 PM
Quick question - do the 5687's appear in the signal amp, or are they solely in the sidechain amp?

...


[ok, thinking about the sidechain out loud here] ...

OK, and I think I understand the original FC660 design a bit better, and applying to the parts list ... So, the first pair of 5687's operate in class B, with the cutoff point determining the threshold.  Therefore, the sidechain amp has to be balanced (`cause you can't make a SE class B amp (duh!)).  You've got another stage of voltage makeup, which just stays balanced `cause it's just easier to stick another dual triode in for each side, and you've got to run it through another xfmr before the rectifier.  ... and the time constant is just determined by an RC filter.

Eh.  Seems like a lot of work and iron to me, for something that doesn't actually pass the signal.  Gotta be some way to do it with an FPGA.   :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on July 27, 2008, 04:04:32 PM
any one know where i can buy the 1/2 watt resistor for psu and audio stage  this diy , i have checked a number of suppliers , but they only do one or two values needed for this project.

Bless up

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on July 27, 2008, 04:57:41 PM
What do you think of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130241150982&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=003

He does have 10Ks, maybe he is willing to do custom 15Ks if enough people are interested?
emre
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on July 27, 2008, 05:26:04 PM
Not sure if the 1/4 W resistors on the switches will cause you problems with this build and if it's MBB or BBM type of switching.

Otherwise it looks great.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on July 27, 2008, 05:28:11 PM
Hm, just saw that these are "linear ladder style" but we need log right?
Maybe these ones:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300245229284&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=020

One would have to ask the seller what kind these are... (well, I will)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on July 30, 2008, 07:18:41 PM
About to make mouser order but have one question.
I am ordering the Omron G5v-2 relay it's 12V yeh.
There are 3 I can choose from (Solder pin or PCB Terminal)+ (High sensitivity or Non Latching)
what do I go for??
Title: Transformers and tube selection
Post by: schmidlin on July 30, 2008, 11:30:42 PM
Hi All,
I recently discovered this post and have read most of the 14 pages.  Very impressive.  I hope you all take some time to reflect on how much  of a blessing this internet thing is.  I remember the days when Hamvention or a local guru was the only source for good parts/advice.
First, I am impressed with how affordable the Edcor transformers are, yet surprised at how many folks chimed in to buy some.  I could never find them using regular search techniques, so I wonder about their quality.  Does anyone have any experience with these?  If they are good, I'm down for plenty.
Also, do any of you plan on nixing the 6386 for a less expen$ive 6BA6 or 6BJ6?  Or?  If so, how are you implementing them?
Thanks gang, keep up the great work,
-Schmidlin
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: 3phase on July 31, 2008, 11:42:05 AM
Yep..i also discoverd the thread...
impressive projekt...

I havent found the schematics of the thing yet... is this only via the pcb´s?

and are there any ready yet? how is the result?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 31, 2008, 11:57:06 AM
you guys really reading the thread?  it doesn't use 6386 tubes.... and the schematics .... well.... do some searching in the should I? thread and all will be revealed to you.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: 3phase on July 31, 2008, 12:08:23 PM
should I? yep..i ve read the thread..but i ve overseen any links to the schematics...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on July 31, 2008, 12:11:12 PM
Quote from: "3phase"
should I? yep..i ve read the thread..but i ve overseen any links to the schematics...


OK read this one:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28586&highlight=pm660
Title: My Bad...
Post by: schmidlin on July 31, 2008, 10:45:46 PM
I feel a little crunchy, like I am butting into a conversation and asking dumb questions, so my apologies and please bear with me.
I think I get what is going on now.  I read the parts list  :)
I don't plan to tackle this project, but am dying to hear the results: looks like you are firing on all cylinders as a team.
But I still would like any feedback on the Edcor's.  For those prices, I suppose I should just try some, but am still curious.
Thanks All.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Rob Flinn on August 01, 2008, 06:42:58 AM
Schmidlin

If you do some searches about Edcors you will find that they are quite well thought of round here, particularly by Analag who designed this project & also the DOAC.

Like I said with some searching you should find sevral opinions.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on August 01, 2008, 08:25:23 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]HEATER PSU

the Heater PSU is a rectified, unregulated one.
the bridge rectifier should be a 12A or more, mounted off board to the chassis. they look like this:
...
we want to be as near as possible to 6.3V, this is done by the value of R15.
again: this resistor is mounted off board and gets very hot. a 50W resistor is a good idea, something like this:
...
one problem we have with the "right" value of R15:
- mains voltage will vary
- the secondary of each transformer will vary
- the consumption of each tube will vary

best thing is to have a few values handy to test it.


With all those issues... Wouldn't it be easier to use a regulator?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 01, 2008, 08:42:26 PM
Quote from: "tommypiper"
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]HEATER PSU

the Heater PSU is a rectified, unregulated one.
the bridge rectifier should be a 12A or more, mounted off board to the chassis. they look like this:
...
we want to be as near as possible to 6.3V, this is done by the value of R15.
again: this resistor is mounted off board and gets very hot. a 50W resistor is a good idea, something like this:
...
one problem we have with the "right" value of R15:
- mains voltage will vary
- the secondary of each transformer will vary
- the consumption of each tube will vary

best thing is to have a few values handy to test it.


With all those issues... Wouldn't it be easier to use a regulator?


No. The only issue is that no one has figured out the 2 possible values and ratings (mono or stereo) for each possible power transformer.   We have, what, 3 different group buy transformers in play, and the value/rating may vary slightly between them.   Someone will undoubtably experiment and find good values, and hopefully post them.  Otherwise we buy a selection, find the right one, and save the rest for something else.  

Mains AC and tube current consumption variation aren't real issues.  Secondary AC and current RELATIVE to tube draw will be.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Nele on August 02, 2008, 05:28:05 AM
Quote from: "tommypiper"
With all those issues... Wouldn't it be easier to use a regulator?


my thoughts as well. Why not use a 317 with a TIP2955 for instance...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 02, 2008, 05:47:23 AM
emrr is right.

until know my heater tests are done with an extra 9V/6A transformer.
since I haven't received my final PSU transformer either (bernbrue group buy), and won't get the models from codered, Kid Squid or Edcor I can't give you the exact values.

the value is around 1R for stereo, 2R for mono.

remember, for stereo we need nearly 6A for the heaters, and a 6A regulated PSU would be a little bit oversized in my opinion.
anyway, it is what analag did in his unit, so why change it.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 02, 2008, 10:41:32 AM
Analag & Valker, how complicated will be to add makeup gain for PM? Valker did you received my email?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 02, 2008, 10:46:28 AM
Moby, 18dB gain should be enough for a Compressor.
btw, your PCBs and schematic are shipped.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 02, 2008, 11:01:05 AM
Cool, then I will wait to see schemo... thanks ;-)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 02, 2008, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: "Nele"
Quote from: "tommypiper"
With all those issues... Wouldn't it be easier to use a regulator?


my thoughts as well. Why not use a 317 with a TIP2955 for instance...


You want to regulate a lightbulb?   :razz:   Keep it simple.....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Nele on August 02, 2008, 11:18:52 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
You want to regulate a lightbulb?   :razz:   Keep it simple.....

hehe, touché!
just thinking costwise it might be cheaper to regulate than to buy various 50W resistors but maybe not...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 02, 2008, 11:39:22 AM
Quote from: "Nele"

just thinking costwise it might be cheaper to regulate than to buy various 50W resistors but maybe not...


Hell with buying a bunch of 50W Resistors.... buy yourself one of these 50W suckers and then do the test/measurements to buy the right value.  You can use it with for all your future projects.....

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/photo.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 02, 2008, 12:04:29 PM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Quote from: "Nele"

just thinking costwise it might be cheaper to regulate than to buy various 50W resistors but maybe not...


Hell with buying a bunch of 50W Resistors.... buy yourself one of these 50W suckers and then do the test/measurements to buy the right value.  You can use it with for all your future projects.....

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/photo.jpg)


I was thinking about those power rheostats; expensive, but good to have around for these sorts of experiments.  Exactly what was used for voltage control in lots of vintage PSU's.   You get back to battery powered gear in the late 1920's, and this was a front panel filament control, complete with metering.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Nele on August 02, 2008, 04:37:39 PM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Hell with buying a bunch of 50W Resistors.... buy yourself one of these 50W suckers


hmmm.. that's not such a bad idea..  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on August 02, 2008, 05:20:50 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
Quote from: "Nele"
Quote from: "tommypiper"
With all those issues... Wouldn't it be easier to use a regulator?


my thoughts as well. Why not use a 317 with a TIP2955 for instance...


You want to regulate a lightbulb?   :razz:   Keep it simple.....


Yeah, I understand it doesn't need regulating really, and the high current is a consideration....  but it might actually be simpler and easier... and avoids cooking a 50w resistor and creating all that heat and further current loss...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 02, 2008, 05:35:26 PM
you could use the heater regulation scheme used in the D-AOC, but you would need one for each channel.
much more heat ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 02, 2008, 07:44:56 PM
The heat produced with a voltage drop has to go somewhere, one way or the other.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 07, 2008, 08:21:28 AM
I received my PCB's today. Thanks Valker. One question now when I see schemo... How close tubes have to be matched. I read somewhere Analag's comment about but can't find it now  :?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 07, 2008, 08:30:58 AM
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=341135&highlight=#341135
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 07, 2008, 08:41:33 AM
Thanks Volker. Do you have info about current tolerance?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 07, 2008, 08:47:09 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
Do you have info about current tolerance?

let's wait for analag to answer this question
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on August 07, 2008, 04:46:33 PM
Quote from: "Moby"
Thanks Volker. Do you have info about current tolerance?


Current tolerance is wide, enough to accept the average ratio of mismatch between tubes. Naturally you will buy at least twice the number of 6BC8 you will need (for replacements as well) so just average the tubes, no need to super match. You can do this by simply measuring the voltage drop across the cathode resistors.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 07, 2008, 05:16:27 PM
Quote from: "analag"

You can do this by simply measuring the voltage drop across the cathode resistors.


Approx how close is ok? Since i'm a tube noob i don't really know what to look for..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 07, 2008, 10:37:32 PM
Ok, say that I will use tube emission tester. Ideal current for 6BC8 will be 10+10ma. What will be worst scenario you can accept for PM topology?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 08, 2008, 01:12:03 AM
only the ears can answer this question.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 08, 2008, 06:30:27 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
only the ears can answer this question.

I don't agree. I'm asking simple question because if you go more than transformer can handle there will be huge low freq loss. Of course constant current helps, but there is also  limitation. I don't think that Edcors are so oversized... :roll:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 08, 2008, 09:45:39 AM
I was referring to mismatch, which is already expected to be a minimal issue according to all said before here.  

The units that have been built all work fine.   There are response graphs posted here; did you see them?   I doubt anyone sourced special 'extra current flow' tubes to test the hypothesis of high draw.   Transformer overload point is an interesting question though.

The side chain amp uses the same transformer, and appears to pass a far greater signal level than the audio amp.  That should be clue enough.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 08, 2008, 10:00:36 AM
I'm talking about DC signal passing through transformer. If the current is different difference will saturate TX. So, I ask does Analag knows how much difference space is available with EDCOR TX. That can be easy determined by knowing the TX inductance and current flowing through. Unfortunately I still don't have transformers and want to select the tubes  :?  Anyway it will be good to know that details  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 08, 2008, 10:01:35 PM
Hi Volker,

A couple questions on the parts lists..

the Mouser 1N4007 diodes are coming up as obsolete.. Any other 1n4007 will do right?

Also, on the PM660 list, the first Wima is 220nF, but the Mouser one is listed as .022uF or 22nF right?  I found 3 different MKS2 .22uF
505-MKS20.22/63/10
505-MKS2.22/63/5T
505-MKS20.22/63/5
lead spacing is 5mm for all of them.

Also, for the US peeps, Mouser is out of the big 10uF Wima, so I called TAW. They're giving me a much better price, so I'm getting all these and whatever other Wimas I need from them.  Check them out.

Thanks again Volker and Analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on August 09, 2008, 12:33:57 AM
1N4007 is mouser #512-1N4007 and 462,464 Can Ship Immediately
Hopefully after your order there is some left over for me.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 09, 2008, 01:47:01 AM
Quote from: "mitsos"
Also, on the PM660 list, the first Wima is 220nF, but the Mouser one is listed as .022uF or 22nF right?  I found 3 different MKS2 .22uF
505-MKS20.22/63/10
505-MKS2.22/63/5T
505-MKS20.22/63/5
lead spacing is 5mm for all of them.

220nF or 0.22µF is right.
505-MKS20.22/63/10 is fine.

if there is anything unclear in the Parts-List always double check with the silkscreen:
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PM660_rev01-SilkScreen.pdf
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 09, 2008, 03:24:05 AM
Quote from: "mitsos"
Hi Volker,

Also, for the US peeps, Mouser is out of the big 10uF Wima, so I called TAW. They're giving me a much better price, so I'm getting all these and whatever other Wimas I need from them.  Check them out.

Thanks again Volker and Analag


Volker - Are the 10uF Wima the main Output Caps :?:

If so the it's a good place to spend the extra money (They're like $12 EACH  :shock: )

SOLEN Caps may be a good option here... very good & cheaper :idea:
Volker - do you think they'll fit?

Also... having trouble finding the right  "heat sinks" using the numbers in the parts list... like at Mouser & Digikey. Anyone have any luck with these???

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 09, 2008, 03:46:20 AM
Kevin
the Poor Man doesn't have any caps in the signal path.
the 10µF Wimas are in the sidechain, no need to spend extra money.
my first PCB design (rev 0.0001) was with Solen caps, but analag and me decided to go the smaller (and cheaper) way.
haven't seen any cheaper solen than Wima yet ?
look at the silkscreen PDF, it is 1:1.
the Solen 10µF I used for the D-AOC won't fit.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 09, 2008, 04:38:16 AM
Thanks man  :thumb:

I should have my Boards & Schematic soon, so I'm going to wait to order parts until I see where they go.

$25 for 2 Caps that aren't in the signal path is ridiculous.


YES the Solens can be had cheaper than the WIMA's (at least for this cap)

http://www.tubedepot.com/solen.html
Solen "Fast" Cap 10µF / 630V

CP-SO-1000-630V   $5.30


MOUSER - Wima 10uf
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=MKP4-10%2f250%2f10virtualkey50520000virtualkey505-MKP410%2f250%2f10
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 09, 2008, 04:57:24 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]Kevin
but analag and me decided to go the smaller (and cheaper) way.

the Solen 10µF I used for the D-AOC won't fit.


By Smaller & cheaper do you mean:
2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm ???

I was wondering what the "Option" was for.

Also, if that WIMA cap really isn't needed... why is it in the parts list ???


Quote
2 x 10µ WIMA MKP4 C2,C4
www.mouser.com 505-MKP410/250/10
www.farnell.com n.a.
www.conrad.com 450535
www.reichelt.de n.a.

2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 09, 2008, 05:09:54 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
I should have my Boards & Schematic soon, so I'm going to wait to order parts until I see where they go.

yes, yours have been shipped with the first shipment I did.
and yes, if you don't like "soldering by numbers" waiting for everything will be best.
Quote from: "khstudio"
$25 for 2 Caps that aren't in the signal path is ridiculous.

don't agree here. sidechain caps can be important too.
btw, since germany was out of stock I ordered 12 of them at mousers for the prototype testing. this was + shipping + taxes + fedex tax handling fees.
Quote from: "khstudio"
YES the Solens can be had cheaper than the WIMA's (at least for this cap)

they are hard to get in europe and some other parts of the world.
remember, this is an international project. it is always hard to source which parts can be purchased in which country. WIMA should be more common than Solen.
Quote from: "khstudio"
By Smaller & cheaper do you mean:
2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm ???

no, those are optional PSU bypass caps.
cheaper and smaller is the WIMA solution regarding the Solens.
cheaper at least in most parts of the world.
Quote from: "khstudio"
Also, if that WIMA cap really isn't needed... why is it in the parts list ???

since they are needed. and everybody always cry for a parts list.
the parts list is done for the components the PCB is designed for.
btw, the populated PCB will look like sh*t without those WIMAs :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 09, 2008, 05:19:48 AM
Quote
cheaper and smaller is the WIMA solution regarding the Solens.
cheaper at least in most parts of the world.


I was thinking that after I posted.  :oops:

Printing the 1:1 PDF Layout is helping a LOT.  :thumb:

Your right... doesn't look like the 10uf SOLENs will fit.  :sad:


Thanks for your help man... sorry about all the questions.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 09, 2008, 04:18:39 PM
Boards and info received.  Don't see these issues addressed anywhere:

Placement of 5K meter trim; in series to meter?

Adjustment of trimmers on boards; assume RV1 and RV2 adjust to +/-17 VDC, but what about RV3 and RV6?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 09, 2008, 04:41:31 PM
Quote from: "kazper"
1N4007 is mouser #512-1N4007 and 462,464 Can Ship Immediately
Hopefully after your order there is some left over for me.

I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!!


Quote from: "khstudio"
Thanks man  :thumb:

I should have my Boards & Schematic soon, so I'm going to wait to order parts until I see where they go.

$25 for 2 Caps that aren't in the signal path is ridiculous.



Kevin,
 
I'm getting mine from TAW for $4-something each..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on August 09, 2008, 06:56:37 PM
sh*t, I ordered the Solen 10uf's like the D-AOC so those won't fit !
If anyone in Europe has or will get some extra Wima 10uf;s then let me know
and I'll have a few off you ...  :oops:

Marty.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jrfred453 on August 09, 2008, 07:02:58 PM
I was getting part numbers online from TAW for the Wimas. Total for all Wima caps came to $21. I thought about organizing a group buy for US builders but we wouldn't save very much unless we reached 100 sets.

Mitsos- Are you getting the MKP4 for that price?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 09, 2008, 07:17:51 PM
Quote
Mitsos- Are you getting the MKP4 for that price?

That's what I was told. Maybe since I had ordered from them before, I don't know. I am placing my order on Monday..  They told me they were giving me the 25+ price, even though I was only ordering 2.  To be honest, I'm not 100% sure they are the correct ones, because their site lists them at 5-something each, and Mouser sells them for $12. Anyway, this is TAW's number:  MKP4 10/250/10 LS37.5 RoHS

Volker, can you confirm this is the same?

If so,  I doubt there'd be a problem to get this price, since there are so many interested, and since most, like me, would order more caps. I could send an email on Monday to the sales person handling my stuff let her know there'll be a flood of requests for this same cap.

EDIT. Thinking better about it, it may be a good idea to develop a relationship with TAW so we can get discounted prices for smaller quantities. Between all of us we buy sh*tloads of Wimas. It would be a bit more costly for them to handle separate orders, but it would guarantee we would not buy from Mouser anymore.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 10, 2008, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
I'm talking about DC signal passing through transformer. If the current is different difference will saturate TX. So, I ask does Analag knows how much difference space is available with EDCOR TX. That can be easy determined by knowing the TX inductance and current flowing through. Unfortunately I still don't have transformers and want to select the tubes  :?  Anyway it will be good to know that details  :green:



Quote
requires 250V @ 80mA


A quick semi-educated guess, looking at the schematic, suggests around 50 mA through the side chain amp output transformer to the 5687's, and 20-25 mA at most through the audio amp output transformer to the 6BC8's, with no gain reduction.  I'll be interested to see how far off my guess is.  Differences in current flow through each side can cause low frequency losses in a PP transformer; we know that.  I have not seen a specific test on this specific transformer.  NewYorkDave published some tests concerning single ended DC usage of these transformers, which one can extrapolate from, if feeling theoretical.  His graphs do not seem to be loading ATM, or maybe anymore at all:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=10180&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=edcor&start=15

But the message seems clear; a few mA deviation side to side appears acceptable, and it would take pretty severe mismatch of tubes to get outside that range.   True with most PP DC carrying transformers.  The published response graphs for the PM660 do not indicate special efforts towards tube current balance.

Finding perfect tube match on a tester will get you nowhere.  You need current measurements in circuit with the transformer in question, to account for side to side transformer variations.    I'm sure you could get tweaky and mod the circuit to include a balancing adjustment if you felt like hacking one in.  The primary load resistors will already do a tiny bit of side to side load compensation.  

I doubt I am of any more help on this; maybe none at all in the first place.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 10, 2008, 08:09:45 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
Placement of 5K meter trim; in series to meter?

depends on your meter I think.
for my standard VU I used it in parallel and had no problems to zero it, tracking was fine.

Quote from: "emrr"
Adjustment of trimmers on boards; assume RV1 and RV2 adjust to +/-17 VDC, but what about RV3 and RV6?

RV1 to your needs (it is not used in the PM directly)
RV2 to -17V, right.
RV3 and RV6 are questions to analag. In my proto I just soldered them in, didn't touch them and it worked fine.

Quote from: "mitsos"
I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!!

just use any 1N4007 - I even don't know the differences.

Quote from: "mitsos"
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure they are the correct ones, because their site lists them at 5-something each, and Mouser sells them for $12. Anyway, this is TAW's number: MKP4 10/250/10 LS37.5 RoHS
Volker, can you confirm this is the same?

 :?: this is not a supplier I ever used, how could I :?:
it is not uncommon to have these price difference, and the ordering number looks fine. but who knows.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 10, 2008, 11:19:53 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]

Quote from: "mitsos"
I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!!

just use any 1N4007 - I even don't know the differences.

Neither do I, so another one it is.

Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "mitsos"
To be honest, I'm not 100% sure they are the correct ones, because their site lists them at 5-something each, and Mouser sells them for $12. Anyway, this is TAW's number: MKP4 10/250/10 LS37.5 RoHS
Volker, can you confirm this is the same?

 :?: this is not a supplier I ever used, how could I :?:
it is not uncommon to have these price difference, and the ordering number looks fine. but who knows.

I checked Wima's site after I posted this.. There is only 1 MKP4 10uF,250V, 10%, with 37.5mm leads. So I guess they are the same.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on August 10, 2008, 02:16:33 PM
Quote from: "mitsos"
I was referring specifically to the one on the "official" parts list (583-1N4007). I know there are others, but I need 462,465!!

just use any 1N4007 - I even don't know the differences.[/quote]
Neither do I, so another one it is.

583 is diodes inc 1n4007 diode, and 512 is Fairchild diode.... same thing just different pimp not a big deal.

Just space any of them a little bit off PCB so if there ever is a problem it don't toast the PCB, any high voltage/wattage pieces its best practice.

If you don't understand look at how Drip shows on his LA2A Opto manual(s) in mounting Resistors and diodes and do that!.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Osse on August 10, 2008, 04:04:10 PM
Hello.

I wonder what the point is with both Input knob and treshold knob is, isn't this the same thing?

And I also wonder why there is no output or make up in this, are you supposed to amplify externally or track back with low signal level?

Confused... :shock:

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 10, 2008, 04:36:37 PM
Quote from: "Osse"
Hello.

And I also wonder why there is no output or make up in this?

Confused... :shock:

Thanks!


Output gain control would be nice & would offer the ability to "drive" the front end more & create some different flavors.  :idea:

Didn't the Original units have output gain control?

Can (& How could) this be implemented  :?:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 10, 2008, 05:19:55 PM
Input / output; same thing.   You could use an external output atten on the audio amp if you wanted.    Several pages back it was mentioned the audio amp has 18 db of gain.  I suppose you have a problem if doing more than 18 dB of GR.  

Look at the block diagram on page 1.  Audio amp output drives the side chain amp input.  Threshold is the input level to the side chain amp.  You could cut into it as a side chain input point if you wanted to hack some more.  I can see it now, 'Jim-Bob's PM660 Side-Chain adapter boards"!

But then we move away from the project as envisioned.

Look at the original; this is essentially the same layout and flow.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 10, 2008, 05:48:53 PM
It's no big deal, I was just curious about an output control... but not hearing the PM670 yet, I guess it's a premature question & probably a non issue.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 10, 2008, 06:10:48 PM
no output control on the original.  Just input as here.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Osse on August 11, 2008, 05:16:01 PM
Then my question is:

Is there any benefit from doing this kind of design? 2x gain reductors and no make up? Seems very stupid if you ask me, but who am I to criticise the most attractive compressor around.

Could anyone give me some reasons to do a design like this?

Isn't the most effective way to have a fixed treshold, an input, and an output?

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 11, 2008, 05:26:12 PM
HEATSINKS - MOUSER

Q4, Q5
Mouser Part #:      532-529902B25G
Manufacturer Part #:    529902B02500G
Manufacturer:    Aavid Thermalloy
Description:    Heatsink TO-220, VERT 3.5 TR
Case Type:   TO-220
Dimensions:   41.91 mm L x 25.4 mm W x 50.8 mm H

IC1, IC2
Mouser Part #:      532-531102B25G
Manufacturer Part #:    531102B02500G
Manufacturer:    Aavid Thermalloy
Description:    Heatsink TO-220, VERT 10.4 TR
Case Type:   TO-220
Dimensions:   12.7 mm L x 35.052 mm W x 38.1 mm H
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 11, 2008, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: "Osse"

Is there any benefit from doing this kind of design? 2x gain reductors and no make up? Seems very stupid if you ask me, but who am I to criticise the most attractive compressor around.

Could anyone give me some reasons to do a design like this?

Isn't the most effective way to have a fixed treshold, an input, and an output?


Grouchy old curmudgeon checking in....:green:

You are right, you don't understand.    The unit has gain; that's the same as make-up gain.  18 dB with max input setting and no limiting.  Unity gain throughput at max input setting IF you are doing 18 dB of limiting.    I'm not sure how you keep thinking there's no gain to play with; there is almost no such thing as a unity gain tube amp.  There are several threads about threshold in tube limiters you should find; they will give you every reason.  This thread is long enough already.    Suffice to say if you want the ratio to be unchanged, you leave the threshold fixed and drive it more or less to achieve 'variable threshold'.   The side chain has it's own gain knob called threshold.  There are limiters with movable threshold and unity gain; this isn't one of them.  Same outcome; all discussion is semantics.  It's all there in the block diagram.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 11, 2008, 07:23:55 PM
Could I get an estimated value for R15
the "Off board 25/50W resistor" for the heaters

using the EDCORE Power Trans:

Quote
GROUP BUY - XPWR063
Dual 115V 50/60Hz to 250 200mA,
9 volt 6A, 15 volt center tapped 1A
15 volt center tapped 1A


I'm in the US & my wall voltage is pretty steady
Approximately = 120v AC 60Hz
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 11, 2008, 08:38:33 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
the value is around 1R for stereo, 2R for mono.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 11, 2008, 08:40:35 PM
I believe there is no way to hook up this Poorchild for M/S encoding/decoding  if using the Edcors that doesn't have dual windings?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 11, 2008, 09:13:15 PM
Quote from: "flintan"
I believe there is no way to hook up this Poorchild for M/S encoding/decoding  if using the Edcors that doesn't have dual windings?


nope.  Have to use different transformers if you want that.  On second thought, you could if you're willing to hack the transformers.  It's not hard to separate the center tap connections.  You'll just have to figure out what to do with the loose wire.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 11, 2008, 09:29:31 PM
Ok, thanks! Is the two windings just soldered to the centertap lug? Then it would be quite easy.  :grin:

But on second thought, i wonder if the Edcor windings are close enough matched for this type of application..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 11, 2008, 10:09:09 PM
Quote from: "khstudio"
Could I get an estimated value for R15
the "Off board 25/50W resistor" for the heaters
I too am wondering what to get, but I did not get a group buy power trafo because I thought it was a waste of $$ for only one channel (I am doing a 660). so I have a couple of questions..

1) What is Analag using for R15 in his 660?

2)Also, when did we go from 6.3 to 9V? Is this specifically for the 670?

This is what Analag said his power trafo is :
250V @ 80mA, 15V @20mA and 6.3V @3A.

Is Analag using the bypass boards?

Finally, the toroid I am looking at (Antek 1T250, someone mentioned this here or in the "should I" thread but gave the wrong specs) is 2x 250V, 250mA each ,2x 6.3V 3A each.

Can I get +18 and -18 from one 6.3V 3A secondary... or wiring the two together, but I think it~s not a good idea to mess with the heater voltage.. . I don't want to buy two toroids for this, so I may ask to build Antek if they can custom do one, but no idea if they do that. Unless you think it'll work with this one (with bypass) I will have to keep looking. Thanks for the ideas..


On a side note, I traded a few emails with Laura at TAW about their products in general and Wimas specifically. She will probably appear here herself at some point, but for the time being she has offered anyone from Prodigy their 100+ pricing on small orders... The 10uF MKP4's turned out to be $4.15. I ended up ordering all the Wima's I need now, for much less than Mouser, plus all the Panasonic electrolytics which are also a few cents cheaper than Digikey.  I'm gonna post this in the BM for those who want to take advantage.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 11, 2008, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: "flintan"
Ok, thanks! Is the two windings just soldered to the centertap lug? Then it would be quite easy.  :grin:


yes they are

Quote
But on second thought, i wonder if the Edcor windings are close enough matched for this type of application..


if they are close enough to be useful at all, they should do the trick.   Maybe not ideal, but close enough for a PM.   You could always go with an appropriate $$$ transformer set instead.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 11, 2008, 10:31:21 PM
Quote
2)Also, when did we go from 6.3 to 9V? Is this specifically for the 670?


It's for DC on the Heaters

CORRECTION!!!


Sorry... I was half right  :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 11, 2008, 11:16:34 PM
Quote
2)Also, when did we go from 6.3 to 9V?


It's for 6.3 VDC, rectified from 9 VAC.
Title: ?
Post by: shabtek on August 11, 2008, 11:46:08 PM
those who have the boards:
those 10u caps are 10mm spacing? correct?

[silent:arts wrote:
HEATER PSU
the Heater PSU is a rectified, unregulated one.
the bridge rectifier should be a 12A or more, mounted off board to the chassis. they look like this:
...
we want to be as near as possible to 6.3V, this is done by the value of R15.
again: this resistor is mounted off board and gets very hot. a 50W resistor is a good idea, something like this:
...
one problem we have with the "right" value of R15:
- mains voltage will vary
- the secondary of each transformer will vary
- the consumption of each tube will vary

best thing is to have a few values handy to test it.
----------------------------
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 12, 2008, 12:01:38 AM
Darn you people with your 1000+ posts! Who do I believe now?!?

Quote
Quote from: "mitsos"
2)Also, when did we go from 6.3 to 9V? Is this specifically for the 670?

Quote from: "khstudio"

It's for DC on the Heaters... it gets rectified 9v x 1.4 = 12.6v

Quote from: "emrr"
It's for 6.3 VDC, rectified from 9 VAC.

Kevin's answer makes sense for the stereo (not my case). you'd need 6.3 per channel right? So 12.6?

But emrr got me thinking, after the 6.3 gets rectified, I'll have (let me pull out my complicator) 8.91VDC or so. Ok, that's where the 50W resistor comes in to drop the voltage? Am I on the right track? I've got a long ways to go. Lucky for me I don't have all the parts yet.
Well, tomorrow I will see about the custom toroid, if anyone has ideas on how to use that stock one, let me know.

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 12, 2008, 12:05:08 AM

It's 6.3 VDC no matter how many channels.
Title: Re: ?
Post by: mitsos on August 12, 2008, 12:06:59 AM
Quote from: "shabtek"
those who have the boards:
those 10u caps are 10mm spacing? correct?
I don't have the boards. Mouser lists them at 37.5mm and when I checked Wima's site the only one they have is 37.5

Thanks for that quote.. It's hard to straighten things out since most people are doing stereo versions.. Anyway, I'll get there.
Title: Re: ?
Post by: EmRR on August 12, 2008, 12:10:08 AM
Quote from: "shabtek"
those who have the boards:
those 10u caps are 10mm spacing? correct?


The Wima?  37.5 mm lead spacing, 19 mm body width.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 12, 2008, 12:28:39 AM
mitsos,
Sorry. Doug is right 6.3v DC.

I'm working on several projects here & got confused... one is a preamp with 12v DC on heaters. :oops:
Not to mention I don't even have a schematic yet, so...

Mouser is out of stock for the 10uf

Google - Search for TAW... find their site & call... they have them.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 12, 2008, 03:53:25 AM
Doug is right :thumb:
thanks for your support, if there are some PCBs left I owe you a set for the support you do here :thumb:
easier to send then some  :sam:  :guinness:  :sam:  :guinness:  :green:  :green:  :green:
Title: ok
Post by: shabtek on August 12, 2008, 06:49:50 AM
re: wimas
--so the parts list indicates values of capacitance/voltage/tolerance

is there any info for lead spacing or are there no options for this?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 12, 2008, 08:45:47 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
Quote from: "flintan"
Ok, thanks! Is the two windings just soldered to the centertap lug? Then it would be quite easy.  :grin:


yes they are

Quote
But on second thought, i wonder if the Edcor windings are close enough matched for this type of application..


if they are close enough to be useful at all, they should do the trick.   Maybe not ideal, but close enough for a PM.   You could always go with an appropriate $$$ transformer set instead.


For now it have to make it a poorman cause i can't afford the 350 GBP that is the cost of only the signal amp transformers, it's about as much as the entire PM project...

But i think i will try to separate the CT windings on the Edcors and then hook up som nice relay boards next to it and see how it works. Not that i'm going to make LP masters but it would be cool to have this M/S or lat./vert. option since it was (as far as i've understood) one of the main features from the start.
Title: Re: ok
Post by: flintan on August 12, 2008, 08:51:18 AM
Quote from: "shabtek"
re: wimas
--so the parts list indicates values of capacitance/voltage/tolerance

is there any info for lead spacing or are there no options for this?


Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]PM660 Component Placement and Dimensions (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PM660_rev01-SilkScreen.pdf)
PSU660 Component Placement and Dimensions (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU660_rev02-SilkScreen.pdf)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jrfred453 on August 12, 2008, 10:23:54 AM
Wima Info

1.5uf/63v 5mm LS - TAW # MKS2 155J63
.22uf/63v 5mm LS - TAW # MKS2 224K63
.1uf/63v   5mm LS - TAW # MKS2 104J63
.1uf/630v 22mm LS - TAW # MKS4 104J630
10uf/250v 37.5mm LS - TAW # MKP4 106K250?
Title: wima ordering
Post by: mitsos on August 12, 2008, 10:54:53 AM
The person I spoke to at TAW is Laura. Let her know you are from Prodigyand she will take care of you. My stuff came in at half (or less) Mouser's prices.
<her name here>[at]tawelectronics[dot]com
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 12, 2008, 05:41:34 PM
Ok, I went to through the thread just to make sure the question hasn't been answered (probably has but...) I also checked the schematic and BOM.

So far this has been a really easy stuffin'

Questions for stereo unit:

PM board -- optional cap value?
PM PSU for stereo use -- Q4 IRF820 and Q5 IRF840
(if you were making a mono unit you could use IRF820 for both Q4 & Q5)

correct?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 12, 2008, 06:13:27 PM
Attack (Time Constant)

I tried searching but couldn't find what I need.

OK... the Original unit has 6 settings but the PM670 calls for a 10k Pot.

#1 - What should the taper be (if a pot is used)?

#2 - If a Switch is used... what were the resistance values of the original 6 settings?
Tat's cases have the 6 settings on the faceplate... so whoever is using his cases will also want to know because the POT will surely not match the 6 settings.

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on August 12, 2008, 06:29:58 PM
i understood its a 5 x  2K resistors (linear) switch...(e.g 2 x 6 lorlin or alpha)

so , first step no resistence and the other 5 sums to 10K.

volker or analag will confirm....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 12, 2008, 06:53:49 PM
Quote from: "khstudio"
Attack (Time Constant)

OK... the Original unit has 6 settings but the PM670 calls for a 10k Pot.

#1 - What should the taper be (if a pot is used)?

#2 - If a Switch is used... what were the resistance values of the original 6 settings?

Thanks


The pot should be linear, I believe.  It normally is in this application.  The 6 positions are only a nod to the original.  It has a more complex switching set up for time constants.  Compare the schematics and you'll see.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 12, 2008, 07:19:00 PM
I got everything I have in hand stuffed and soldered today; probably over 70%.  

Is "2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm" a reference to the 2 unmarked caps next to the power connections on the PM660 board?  I assume so, based on the few other Q&A's about them.  I measured  2.5 or 5mm lead spacing for both positions.  

Voltage is obvious from the B+ rails.  Benefits from adding substantial extra capacitance is the question for everyone to consider.  They are simply in parallel with the 100 mfd PSU caps exiting the PSU, so it's simply a matter of physical placement.  I see you put something that looks like 10 or 20 mfd on the prototype.  

I am wondering if the bypass / relay board info should be reposted in this thread; I dug through the D-AOC thread to find it, and it still wasn't concisely described.  I don't know that I'll use them, but I'd expect to see a flood of questions about them soon.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 12, 2008, 07:47:00 PM
Quote from: "khstudio"

Tat's cases have the 6 settings on the faceplate... so whoever is using his cases will also want to know because the POT will surely not match the 6 settings.

Thanks


Looks like  those who bought those cases will have to use switches then...  :roll:

Parts list say: "1 x Potentiometer or Rotary Switch Restistance: 10K ATTACK (TIME CONSTANT)"
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 12, 2008, 08:28:59 PM
Quote
I am wondering if the bypass / relay board info should be reposted in this thread; I dug through the D-AOC thread to find it, and it still wasn't concisely described. I don't know that I'll use them, but I'd expect to see a flood of questions about them soon.


Probably best to start another thread (with a Link on page 1 of this thread)

This thread is bound to get pretty long as is.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 12, 2008, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: "mich"
i understood its a 5 x  2K resistors (linear) switch...(e.g 2 x 6 lorlin or alpha)

so , first step no resistence and the other 5 sums to 10K.

volker or analag will confirm....


Thanks man... I'd like to know.

But if this is the case, I think a POT would give better options & more refined control.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 12, 2008, 08:35:54 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
I got everything I have in hand stuffed and soldered today; probably over 70%.  


Damn Doug... how long have you had the Boards?
I'm in Jersey & still don't have mine.  :sad:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 12, 2008, 09:18:08 PM
Yeah the stuff goes fast:

(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/pm670.jpg)
Title: board
Post by: lewilson on August 12, 2008, 09:58:09 PM
when will I get my boards? Have you send to the USA yet? Thanks
Title: Re: board
Post by: kazper on August 13, 2008, 01:27:07 AM
Quote from: "lewilson"
when will I get my boards? Have you send to the USA yet? Thanks


Hold on to your briefs man, the chap sent at least 100 packages.

But since you didn't know where to look, it's on the first post in the Black Market for the 660 pcb's. I'll help you and find it for you.

lewilson: 2 / 1 - shipped 04.08.2008*

Mine shipped on 6.8 and my wifie said they showed up today near Portland Oregon.

Don't panic, have patience.

Kaz
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 13, 2008, 02:06:01 AM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Yeah the stuff goes fast

yes :green:

ATTENTION
you guys are faster than me with the information I want to post ...

don't fire it up without the transformers and controls connected.
if you do you will have a burning resistor in the sidechain amp.
have forgotten which one and don't want to try it again.

will try to post some wiring instructions today.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 13, 2008, 02:13:50 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
Is "2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm" a reference to the 2 unmarked caps next to the power connections on the PM660 board?  I assume so, based on the few other Q&A's about them.  I measured  2.5 or 5mm lead spacing for both positions.

totally right. they are not in analags original schematic, but since there was the little space left on the PCBs - can't be wrong.
put in whatever fits, or leave them out, shouldn't matter.
Quote from: "emrr"
I am wondering if the bypass / relay board info should be reposted in this thread; I dug through the D-AOC thread to find it, and it still wasn't concisely described.  I don't know that I'll use them, but I'd expect to see a flood of questions about them soon.

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=26585&start=198 ?
Quote from: "khstudio"
Attack (Time Constant)
...
#1 - What should the taper be (if a pot is used)?

linear
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 13, 2008, 02:20:35 AM
So Cannikin can confirm Mouser heatsink #s!!

My boards showed up 8/9.  I started stuffing this afternoon.  Still more parts to order.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 13, 2008, 02:48:09 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
HEATSINKS - MOUSER

Q4, Q5
Mouser Part #:      532-529902B25G
Manufacturer Part #:    529902B02500G
Manufacturer:    Aavid Thermalloy
Description:    Heatsink TO-220, VERT 3.5 TR
Case Type:   TO-220
Dimensions:   41.91 mm L x 25.4 mm W x 50.8 mm H

IC1, IC2
Mouser Part #:      532-531102B25G
Manufacturer Part #:    531102B02500G
Manufacturer:    Aavid Thermalloy
Description:    Heatsink TO-220, VERT 10.4 TR
Case Type:   TO-220
Dimensions:   12.7 mm L x 35.052 mm W x 38.1 mm H
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 13, 2008, 02:51:03 AM
OK, yous guys... I gotta problem.  one more trafo question for a MONO PM.  I am trying to do this the G9/G7 way, as Niels suggested in another thread, but before we knew what the 18V was for. Ideally I would like to have relays but it is not a requirement at this point.  My problem is I don't know if I can get all the necessary voltages, mainly the -17...  So I took some pictures of what I think may work :?

EDIT: It just occured to me that I could use two toroids with equal V secondaries :roll:  

My idea is to use Antek toroids, the first idea is 1209(2x9V, 100VA) and 0506(2x6V 50VA) backwards and the second idea is the same but using two 0506 trafos.

In the first, I have 9V 2.78A which would be 12+ rectified and which has to be brought down to 6.3 without regulation. Possible?

Also, is 9V 3A going into the secondaries wired in series of the second going to blow up that trafo? If not, what voltage can I expect on the primary side?  The secondaries are 6V 3A each.  And can I tap that like the G7 PSU to get -18V (with a doubler)? I suppose I can't get the +18 out of these trafos, can I? Click the pic to see what I mean. The voltage doubler would be on the 9V that feeds the 2nd trafo.

(http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7831/photo45ev1.th.jpg) (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photo45ev1.jpg)


Fearing the above might be dangerous, I thought maybe I could use the 0506 connected to mains to give me 2x6V 3A, and wire one secondary to another 2x6V in parallel (50VA maybe not necessary), thinking that this should get me about 250 on the other side? I thought to use the same voltage multiplier idea(this time to triple V to -18?)

Am I on the right track? Is there a better way without buying an expensive custom trafo?  Is there ANY way to get both + 18 and -18 from this type of thing? Could I feed two voltage multipliers from the same secondary?

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 13, 2008, 11:03:57 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
So Cannikin can confirm Mouser heatsink #s!!

My boards showed up 8/9.  I started stuffing this afternoon.  Still more parts to order.


khstudio posted the right ones, for IC1, IC2, and Q1 on the PM board I used 532-529802B02500G I had some already in stock.  they are the same ones, only KH's are a little taller.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 13, 2008, 12:51:09 PM
This attenuator calc, found in the software META, is as detailed and easy to use as any I found in a brief search.  You still have to come up with nearest values yourself.

Resistor string value calculator for constructing stepped attenuators:
http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~nroberts/atten.html

This one works fine in Explorer for me, but not in Firefox or Safari, and the final resistor value is not shown, but assumed from the string value.  Less manual labor with data entry here, still have to do nearest values yourself.

http://www.quadesl.com/attenuator.html
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on August 13, 2008, 04:33:11 PM
Sorry guys, I try to keep up with the thread but work has been demanding.
Remember IRF820 for mono and IRF840 for stereo.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 13, 2008, 05:06:30 PM
Deleted
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Rob Flinn on August 13, 2008, 08:54:38 PM
Anyone got a uk/euro source for the wima 10u ????
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 13, 2008, 09:03:25 PM
Conrad (http://www.conrad.com) no. 450535. It's in the parts list as well.  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 14, 2008, 03:23:50 AM
Deleted
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 14, 2008, 04:29:45 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]the rotary switches

the first rotary switch is the "Input" or "Gain" switch.
dual deck is necessary, shorting preferred, and the more positions the better. over all resistance is 15K. matching the resistors for each step on both decks is a very good idea.
how to calculate the resistors ?

if you want it linear this is easy: 15000 / (number of positions -1) = single resistor in R
(you need (number of positions - 1) resistors of the same value)

you would better want it exponential (or log in potentiometer language).
it took some time to figure this out, but with some help I was able to do an Excell sheet to calculate the resistors for emulating a real log potentiometer.
fill in the desired steps you want: Log Pot to Switch Excell Sheet (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/LogPotToSwitch.xls)

you may want it in dB steps (like me). at the end it is a series attenuator.
my prototype has 18dB of gain, thus I will do one dB steps on an Elma, stopped to 23 steps, going from -4dB to +18dB.


the second rotary switch is the "Threshold" or "Compression" switch.
same as the first one, but the dB step attenuator doesn't make sense here. Lin or Log, your choice.


I don't mean to beat this to death but I need to understand the LOG switch better & this chart. + I don't have the schematic yet but i am ordering parts & want to make sure. The work involved in building these is too much to not ask first.

In the excel sheet it shows position 1 with "0.00" resistance. :?
Is this right? I'd think that ZERO Resistance would let the FULL signal thru... shouldn't this be the LAST position :?:
If so... is the TAPER backwards on the Excel Chart???

I'm still wondering (since I haven't actually used the PM670 YET) which taper would suit the "Threshold" best?
I seem to lean towards the LOG for more refined adjustment on the Lower Ratio... not sure here.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 14, 2008, 04:45:40 AM
From the Excel Sheet - 12 STEPS

http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/12-Stepped-Gain-LOG-1.jpg
(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/normal_12-Stepped-Gain-LOG-1.jpg)

From: Doug... it Did work for me in Firefox 3
Quote from: "emrr"

This one works fine in Explorer for me, but not in Firefox or Safari, and the final resistor value is not shown, but assumed from the string value.  Less manual labor with data entry here, still have to do nearest values yourself.

http://www.quadesl.com/attenuator.html


NOTICE- The Resistors are "Backwards" compared to the Excel Version... BOTH are suppossed to be LOG Taper. :!:  :?:

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/12-Stepped-Gain-LOG.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 14, 2008, 04:46:11 AM
Threshold is an interesting problem; on one hand log makes sense, on the other realize you are controlling signal levels that have probably already been compressed, so the relationship to 'pure audio' levels is already somewhat out the window.  Especially with heavy limiting, log steps might feel large.  But then, Analag says he's using 12 steps in both positions with no troubles, so....

Realize that if you do the threshold atten exactly like the [silent:arts] gain, then there is no 'compression off' position in the amp.  There are various solutions for that.

Another thought:  matched 1M resistors from attenuator sweepers to center of the two 15K arms would give safety against attenuator failure and open grid condition.  
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 14, 2008, 04:49:11 AM
Run this one:

Resistor string value calculator for constructing stepped attenuators:
http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~nroberts/atten.html

Gives more descriptives in the results to help interpret outcome.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 14, 2008, 05:10:47 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
I don't mean to beat this to death but I need to understand the LOG switch better & this chart. + I don't have the schematic yet but i am ordering parts & want to make sure. The work involved in building these is too much to not ask first.

look at the block diagram (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PM660-BlockDiagram.pdf), you do not really need the schematic to see how the attenuators work.
Quote from: "khstudio"
I'm still wondering (since I haven't actually used the PM670 YET) which taper would suit the "Threshold" best?
I seem to lean towards the LOG for more refined adjustment on the Lower Ratio... not sure here.

nobody can tell you which you will like best.
but you can start using potentiometers, decide which law fits your needs and build the switches afterwards to your needs.
Quote from: "emrr"
Realize that if you do the threshold atten exactly like the [silent:arts] gain, then there is no 'compression off' position in the amp.

the lowest switch position is connected to GND, there will be no signal in the sidechain amp, which I would say is "compression off".
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 14, 2008, 05:32:38 AM
Quote
look at the block diagram, you do not really need the schematic to see how the attenuators work.


 :thumb:

OK - Back to my point about the INPUT GAIN:
Why is the first position 0.00 Ohms?
Shouldn't this be the LAST Position?

Quote
but you can start using potentiometers, decide which law fits your needs and build the switches afterwards to your needs.


YES, good point... I've been looking for Dual 15k's to do this first but no luck yet.

Anyone have a source?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 14, 2008, 05:46:56 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
OK - Back to my point about the INPUT GAIN:
Why is the first position 0.00 Ohms?
Shouldn't this be the LAST Position?

this depends from which side you look at the switch :green:
look closer:
your pin1 of a pot is your first position on the switch.
your pin2 of a pot is the wiper
your pin3 of a pot is the last step of the switch.
now we start measuring from pin1 to pin2, what do you get at the first switch position ?
Quote from: "khstudio"
I've been looking for Dual 15k's to do this first but no luck yet.

you won't find one, for testing the law just take 10K (stereo)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 14, 2008, 05:53:41 AM
OOOOOOOOOO Yea... you guys are gonna love me (or kill me) now.  :razz:

Are 1/4 watt Resistors large enough for the Threshold?

Just asking because they're after the the tubes.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 14, 2008, 05:56:11 AM
I used 1/4W resistors with no problems yet.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 14, 2008, 05:57:25 AM
Quote
this depends from which side you look at the switch


Ahhhhhhhhh I see now. :green:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Rob Flinn on August 14, 2008, 08:17:03 AM
Quote from: "flintan"
Conrad (http://www.conrad.com) no. 450535. It's in the parts list as well.  :wink:


Thanks,  I didn't realise that Conrad was a European Supplier, I never heard of them before.  They also don't seem to have an option to look at the site in English unless I'm missing something.   Even there international page comes up in German !
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: ioaudio on August 14, 2008, 08:24:40 AM
http://www.banzaieffects.com/WIMA-MKS4-10uF-250V-LS27-5-pr-23603.html
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on August 14, 2008, 09:00:02 AM
Quote from: "ioaudio"
http://www.banzaieffects.com/WIMA-MKS4-10uF-250V-LS27-5-pr-23603.html

That would appear to be a PE cap (MKS series) rather than the PP (MKP series) that's called for. Banzai's page is a bit...contradictory, but I see two mentions of MKS and only one MKP  :wink:

The listed pitch also doesn't match the PCB hole distance (27mm vs 37.5mm)

JDB.
[and Conrad.nl lists a delivery time of somewhere in October...]
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Rob Flinn on August 14, 2008, 09:04:06 AM
Quote from: "jdbakker"
Quote from: "ioaudio"
http://www.banzaieffects.com/WIMA-MKS4-10uF-250V-LS27-5-pr-23603.html

That would appear to be a PE cap (MKS series) rather than the PP (MKP series) that's called for. Banzai's page is a bit...contradictory, but I see two mentions of MKS and only one MKP  :wink:

The listed pitch also doesn't match the PCB hole distance (27mm vs 37.5mm)

JDB.
[and Conrad.nl lists a delivery time of somewhere in October...]


Thankls for that.  I guess the pitch is down to the fact that the board is made for a 630v cap, possibly a bit of overkill !!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 14, 2008, 09:32:05 AM
I believe it's because that is a polyester cap and polypropylene is less space efficient. But i'm not 160% of that so...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on August 14, 2008, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: "Rob Flinn"
I guess the pitch is down to the fact that the board is made for a 630v cap, possibly a bit of overkill !!

The cap listed in the BOM is a 250v part. Besides, according to the part selector at WIMA's site all 10uF polyprop parts have a 37.5mm pin spacing.

JDB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 14, 2008, 09:55:56 AM
the CAP is 250V, which isn't needed.
but there is no quality 10µF / 63V cap to my knowledge.
at least not from the standard suppliers.
we felt save to use the WIMA MKP4, since it is available at mousers and conrad (US and EU, at least - and no problem to order from other countries there)
if we busted their stock already ... :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 14, 2008, 11:22:46 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "emrr"
Realize that if you do the threshold atten exactly like the [silent:arts] gain, then there is no 'compression off' position in the amp.

the lowest switch position is connected to GND, there will be no signal in the sidechain amp, which I would say is "compression off".

I mean if one wires as you said you would wire your input, from +18 to -4.  Then there is no stop at 0, only as low as -4.    Someone will miss that bit.  

Quote
my prototype has 18dB of gain, thus I will do one dB steps on an Elma, stopped to 23 steps, going from -4dB to +18dB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 14, 2008, 11:27:24 AM
:grin:  now I understand what you mean :thumb:
and you are right, a "dB Attenuator" for the Threshold wouldn't be a good idea, take lin or log there.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 14, 2008, 02:30:47 PM
Volker can you clear this up for me, I don't know why this is bugging me so much because I'm pretty sure I got it right but still it is....

Stereo Unit for PSU =
Q4 - IRF820
Q5 - IRF840

For Mono Unit PSU =
Q4 - IRF820
Q5 - IRF820
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 14, 2008, 02:35:36 PM
Also what brand resistors are you guys using for the switches?

Vishay/Dale CPF Series
Holco

If your going Holco from percyaudio.com

Here are the closest Holco values in relation to Silentarts excel sheet for a 24step 15K (still have to do some figuring but here ya' go):

0
174
187
200
221
243
274
287
316
357
392
432
475
523
562
649
715
787
866
953
1.07K
1.15K
1.27K
1.43K
1.58K
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Barbera Media on August 14, 2008, 03:26:18 PM
Analag, Silent:arts,
  I received my PCB's today without incident. I have to say that these boards are among the best quality I've seen. Can't wait to get cracking on these babys. Thanks again for taking the time to put these together. My recordings are forever in debt to you.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 14, 2008, 03:47:29 PM
Quote
you may want it in dB steps (like me). at the end it is a series attenuator.
my prototype has 18dB of gain, thus I will do one dB steps on an Elma, stopped to 23 steps, going from -4dB to +18dB.


I find this reasonable for the input, so I'm mixing the Dale cmf55, Dale rn60 and Xicon 271 series 1/4 W 1% metal films.  We'll see what happens.  The Dale rn60's come in at $.48 to $0.97 in most cases, and many values are not present, so I skipped them other than a few positions.  Here's the output of the calc located in the Meta.  The values, listed for 1 dB steps, differ from the spreadsheet values.  that is followed with nearest value Mouser parts, in a mix of the three types.

                              
Step 1, Attenuation = 22 dB, Rx = 13809 ohms, Ry = 1191 ohms, Resistor = 1191 ohms.   
Step 2, Attenuation = 21 dB, Rx = 13663 ohms, Ry = 1337 ohms, Resistor = 146 ohms.   
Step 3, Attenuation = 20 dB, Rx = 13500 ohms, Ry = 1500 ohms, Resistor = 163 ohms.   
Step 4, Attenuation = 19 dB, Rx = 13317 ohms, Ry = 1683 ohms, Resistor = 183 ohms.   
Step 5, Attenuation = 18 dB, Rx = 13112 ohms, Ry = 1888 ohms, Resistor = 205 ohms.   
Step 6, Attenuation = 17 dB, Rx = 12881 ohms, Ry = 2119 ohms, Resistor = 231 ohms.   
Step 7, Attenuation = 16 dB, Rx = 12623 ohms, Ry = 2377 ohms, Resistor = 258 ohms.   
Step 8, Attenuation = 15 dB, Rx = 12333 ohms, Ry = 2667 ohms, Resistor = 290 ohms.   
Step 9, Attenuation = 14 dB, Rx = 12007 ohms, Ry = 2993 ohms, Resistor = 326 ohms.   
Step 10, Attenuation = 13 dB, Rx = 11642 ohms, Ry = 3358 ohms, Resistor = 365 ohms.   
Step 11, Attenuation = 12 dB, Rx = 11232 ohms, Ry = 3768 ohms, Resistor = 410 ohms.   
Step 12, Attenuation = 11 dB, Rx = 10772 ohms, Ry = 4228 ohms, Resistor = 460 ohms.   
Step 13, Attenuation = 10 dB, Rx = 10257 ohms, Ry = 4743 ohms, Resistor = 515 ohms.   
Step 14, Attenuation = 9 dB, Rx = 9678 ohms, Ry = 5322 ohms, Resistor = 579 ohms.      
Step 15, Attenuation = 8 dB, Rx = 9028 ohms, Ry = 5972 ohms, Resistor = 650 ohms.      
Step 16, Attenuation = 7 dB, Rx = 8300 ohms, Ry = 6700 ohms, Resistor = 728 ohms.      
Step 17, Attenuation = 6 dB, Rx = 7482 ohms, Ry = 7518 ohms, Resistor = 818 ohms.      
Step 18, Attenuation = 5 dB, Rx = 6565 ohms, Ry = 8435 ohms, Resistor = 917 ohms.      
Step 19, Attenuation = 4 dB, Rx = 5536 ohms, Ry = 9464 ohms, Resistor = 1029 ohms.   
Step 20, Attenuation = 3 dB, Rx = 4381 ohms, Ry = 10619 ohms, Resistor = 1155 ohms.   
Step 21, Attenuation = 2 dB, Rx = 3085 ohms, Ry = 11915 ohms, Resistor = 1296 ohms.   
Step 22, Attenuation = 1 dB, Rx = 1631 ohms, Ry = 13369 ohms, Resistor = 1454 ohms.   
Step 23, Attenuation = 0 dB, Rx = 0 ohms, Ry = 15000 ohms, Resistor = 1631 ohms.



71-CMF551K6200FHEK 1.62Kohms
271-1.47K-RC 1.47Kohms
271-1.3K-RC 1.3Kohms
71-RN60D-F-1.1K  1.1Kohms
71-RN60D-F-1.05K 1.05Kohms
71-CMF55909R00FHEK  909ohms
271-820-RC  820ohms
71-RN60D-F-732  732ohms
271-649-RC 649ohms
271-576-RC 576ohms
71-CMF55511R00FHEK 511ohms
271-464-RC 464ohms
271-412-RC 412ohms
71-CMF55365R00FHEK 365ohms
71-CMF55330R00FHEK 330ohms
71-CMF55301R00FHEK 301ohms
271-261-RC 261ohms
271-232-RC 232ohms
71-CMF55200R00FHEK 200ohms
71-CMF55182R00FHEK 182ohms
271-162-RC 162ohms
71-CMF55150R00FHEK 150ohms    
71-CMF551K2100FHEK 1.21Kohms


I will play with some various pots before deciding how to go with the Threshold control.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 14, 2008, 08:33:34 PM
continuing my power trafo monologue.

I took a closer look at the G9 and while I think that powering method is possible (previous post), it looks like too much of a PITA right now. so I am considering two other options:

:idea:1) Use the two 2x6V 50VA piggybacked to get 6.3V and 250V, and buy a third trafo, 2x 15V 10VA (wired to mains) to  use for the -17 and +18... easiest but I'd be out another $13, and have one more lump-o-steel in my case.

:idea:2) Instead of the third trafo, I would rather hand-wind two 15V windings on the first transformer (the one connected to mains)... I've never done it but glancing at some threads it just seems easier right now, if I can find the right wire. Since I don't know how many turns the primary has, I'll just use PRRs advice in old thread, to wind 10 turns and see what voltage that gets, so I get a round-about view of V/turn.  How likely am I to kill myself/my boards?

thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 15, 2008, 02:09:21 AM
IF you really want to go crazy with your switches

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pr-Daven-211-CM-22-Position-Stereo-Switches-NOS-NIB_W0QQitemZ350087654281QQihZ022QQcategoryZ3284QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on August 15, 2008, 05:33:11 AM
WOW - those are gorgeous switch's David !!!
I had to go for the €12 ones that have been mentioned around here a few
times....... I'm cheap !

Marty.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 15, 2008, 07:32:12 AM
mitsos, why not buy one of the custom made power transformers for this project. Probably cheaper than buying three different ones and a better solution than back to back transformers..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 15, 2008, 11:17:10 AM
Quote from: "flintan"
mitsos, why not buy one of the custom made power transformers for this project. Probably cheaper than buying three different ones and a better solution than back to back transformers..
Because  I am doing a mono project, and since very few people are doing it, there hasn't been any mention of possible power schemes. And I'm cheap, I can't pay $80 for a tranny that is way overbuilt for my unit. The two 50VA trannys cost $13 each (not counting shipping but I'm buying a few others at the same time) plus a few dollars in fancy enameled wire, and I'm good to go for $30. I am just waiting for someone more technically savvy to tell me this will work and won't blow up my house.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: nielsk on August 15, 2008, 11:26:10 AM
Mitsos, This can work.... on the second tranny (of the 120/240 to 6 volt hooked up to the 6 to 120/240 volt ala g9) only hook up one 6 v lead set to the 1st tranny, and take the second 6 volt lead set to a voltage tripler to get the -17 volts....
the big question is how much current is needed at the 245/136 legs and the -17 leg (?) one can typically use a pretty small transformer for the second unit
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 15, 2008, 11:28:24 AM
Hi mitsos,
it could work, it could not, we don't know.
this could be a reason why nobody gives you advice ...
for sure it would be far safer to go with one of the extra wound transformers, even if the specs are for stereo. won't hurt a mono unit.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 15, 2008, 11:44:42 AM
On the power transformer experiments; we know the recommended current draw, so run the math and sort out the required load resistance for the PSU and/or rectifier output.   Then use dummy loads while experimenting.  Should be simple to rough it in that way, and there are always resistor values within the PSU you could change slightly later to adjust output voltage.   All I have to offer there; hope it helps.  

Cannikin; DIY Daven's.  I have some 12 position units like that which have an extra lug per position you can strap for MBB, or leave open for BBM.  You need massive real estate to use them.  Those are mighty high in price, I must say.  You sometimes find them on ebay for 1/10th that price. But if you must have the best, there they are.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 15, 2008, 12:02:25 PM
Quote from: "emrr"

Cannikin; DIY Daven's.  I have some 12 position units like that which have an extra lug per position you can strap for MBB, or leave open for BBM.  You need massive real estate to use them.  Those are mighty high in price, I must say.  You sometimes find them on ebay for 1/10th that price. But if you must have the best, there they are.


I hear ya bro,  couldn't afford them anyway but you know I love obnoxiously HUGE chassis  :grin:

Question for you: are you planning to put a Pot on the attenuator to "fine tune" the levels?  like they do with the attenuators on UA175 units.  what do they call the pot "VERNIER" or something?

might be a great feature for people using only a 12 step rotary.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 15, 2008, 12:08:52 PM
Guys  - I have never built a step attenuator before usually just buy them from goldpoint -- in theory looks cheezy easy but expect some simple/dumb questions :grin:  Of coarse any i-net docs you can point me to would be great.

you've been warned, excited to learn.
  :razz:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 15, 2008, 12:32:54 PM
The Shallco 45 position attenuators at MPAudio come in at $139; same family, more steps, relatively comparable price for new.    Just as big, I think.

Quote from: "cannikin"

Question for you: are you planning to put a Pot on the attenuator to "fine tune" the levels?  like they do with the attenuators on UA175 units.  what do they call the pot "VERNIER" or something?

might be a great feature for people using only a 12 step rotary.


I don't see a way to do that here (that makes any sense).  That's an entirely different approach.  You'd probably be better off building a NewYorkDave style dual knob attenuator to use on the primary sides.  

The existing method on the secondary keeps the level in the input iron consistent regardless of setting, and reflects a higher 1800 ohm Z back to the source(s).  

If you went with a primary side arrangement you'd probably want to stick with 600 ohm input attenuators, meaning lower 600 ohm load on input source(s), and the level in the input iron would vary with setting.    You'd have to work out optimal secondary load resistances.  Only real benefit is you could use existing Daven 600 ohm ladders, which (at this junction) aren't terribly expensive.   BUT, ladders will automatically kill 6 dB of input level, unless you add ANOTHER switch to bypass them at the top of the throw.    Unless you already have some magically expensive Daven 600 ohm Ts.  Or wire up the NYDave dual knob H pads.  

You could really build big by finding two Daven 600 ohm decade attenuator panels, and incorporate them.  But they probably now cost a fortune too.   1/10th dB, 1 dB, and 10 dB steps on three knobs.  

I will play with some dual pots at the threshold position for the purpose of finding normal operating levels, 'sweet spot', etc.  May leave them in if satisfied with performance, may wire up stepped version.  Won't know until.

I was thinking of pot for time constant, but since I'm building stereo, am considering linear 12 position switches for matching.  I've used 12 step on Gates SA-39's for attack and release, and they give plenty of range.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mitsos on August 15, 2008, 12:36:17 PM
Quote from: "nielsk"
Mitsos, This can work.... on the second tranny (of the 120/240 to 6 volt hooked up to the 6 to 120/240 volt ala g9) only hook up one 6 v lead set to the 1st tranny, and take the second 6 volt lead set to a voltage tripler to get the -17 volts....
Wow, hadn't thought of that. Only thought of primary to secondary currents. hmm. My only issue with this is that I'm gonna have to build a V multiplier which will give me -17DC and then I have to skip part of the PSU that is supposed to rectify/regulate the -17V.. If the extra winding would work, then I can just go into the PSU board with AC. Maybe this will be clearer when I see the PCB..

Quote from: "nielsk"
the big question is how much current is needed at the 245/136 legs and the -17 leg (?) one can typically use a pretty small transformer for the second unit

From Should I thread:
Quote from: "analag"
requires 250V @ 80mA, 15V @20mA and 6.3V @3A
He is referring to 1 channel.

And here is a stupid question... Are there no relays that work with neg DC?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 15, 2008, 12:38:30 PM
mitsos  -  stop killing yourself buddy,  as NYD always said "just get the right transformer for the job"

Doug - you are one super knowledgeable guy... great analysis - rock on
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 15, 2008, 12:41:50 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
I will play with some dual pots at the threshold position for the purpose of finding normal operating levels, 'sweet spot', etc. May leave them in if satisfied with performance, may wire up stepped version. Won't know until.

Doug, now, this is the correct approach in DIY :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on August 15, 2008, 06:55:09 PM
Probably covered before, min wattage value for resistors 1/4W or 1/2W?

I'm sure that if you can match the 1N4148's that bridge in the side chain it would help the compressor, similar to the needs in the 2254 and 33609.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: flintan on August 15, 2008, 07:04:33 PM
Says half watt in the parts list, and some 2W..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 15, 2008, 07:07:15 PM
half watt is for security, 1/4 watt should work - except for the 2W and 50W resistors ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on August 15, 2008, 07:07:56 PM
Flintan Thanks,

working for 24.5 hours straight, getting 3 hours of sleep and driving 3 hours home don't help keep the mind straight.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 17, 2008, 03:21:05 AM
I have a question I haven't seen mentioned in here (though it IS a big thread.... but I doubt it would have been brought up before any schematics arrived on anyone's doorstep)

the 10uF wimas - do they really need to be 250V?

I'm no expert on this design (or tube circuits in general) but spent a few hours going through the schematic and trying to understand what's going on yesterday, and my first thought is lower voltage part would be fine (if any Wimas in there need it, the 220nF will have the highest voltage across it, won't it?) I don't see anywhere those 10uF caps could get a significantly higher voltage across them than the 220nF part, and it'd be nice to trade voltage for precision... and, you know...... to save a bunch of $$ on the build and avoid having to order any more things via international post... (I've run up AU$100-odd already, in just international shipping of transformers & tubes & PCBs) :-)

Of course if it really is 250V they see, or the large parts give some other characteristic that we need, I'm happy to go and get them! just want to be sure I need them, is all.



also - while i'm here - if I wanted to go and play with making the sidechain circuit more like the 670, would I be just bridging R18 & C4 and hooking the switch & RC combinations from the 670 circuit to the conector for RV7? or will I need to tweak these R&C values and the other parts on the PCB to work more like the original does?



also also - if I wanted to just leave out input level control for now (most stuff I would drive into the PoorMan has level control already!) then it just becomes two 1/4 watt 15k resistors under the "gain" connector on the PCB, and wire the input secondary straight to the board, right?


thanks!

PS, please let me know if this kind of discussion isn't appropriate (or isn't appropriate in this thread) and I can delete it out of here...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 03:53:07 AM
Quote from: "no-fi"
the 10uF wimas - do they really need to be 250V?

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=327
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 04:07:31 AM
Quote from: "no-fi"
also - while i'm here - if I wanted to go and play with making the sidechain circuit more like the 670, would I be just bridging R18 & C4 and hooking the switch & RC combinations from the 670 circuit to the conector for RV7? or will I need to tweak these R&C values and the other parts on the PCB to work more like the original does?

I don't understand why you people always want to do modifications before trying the "stock" circuit.
Quote from: "no-fi"
also also - if I wanted to just leave out input level control for now (most stuff I would drive into the PoorMan has level control already!) then it just becomes two 1/4 watt 15k resistors under the "gain" connector on the PCB, and wire the input secondary straight to the board, right?

a 2 x 6 rotary switch with 3dB steps isn't expensive and would give you more control.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 17, 2008, 04:19:34 AM
I'm sorry if I missed it but how should they be connected for "Stereo Link"?
... or is it even possible?

there's no wiring guide yet, so I'm not sure about adding this to my faceplate.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 04:23:59 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
I'm sorry if I missed it but how should they be connected for "Stereo Link"?

for stereo you connect the control signal together, which is pin2 of PL1 in the schematic (the middle of the input gain control)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 17, 2008, 04:24:48 AM
Oh dear... I thought I'd checked that page already. sorry!
 :oops:

Anyway - in that case, I'll see what I can find around here in the range of 10uF parts... otherwise off to TAW, and more international postage.


As for the reason I'm asking about switched sidechain circuit components already.... well, I've already done $100 in shipping, so if I knew I might want a bunch of 4 & 8 uF caps in the future, and they had to be high voltage (ie, I also had to order the 10uF Wimas) well, I could order them all at once...
:-)


Oh, and that's a cool idea on the 6 position input gain switch. I was thinking way too much in an "all or nothing" mode - that will be really cheap and fast to do, and definitely better than nothing!

thanks!
 :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:  :guinness:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 17, 2008, 12:10:19 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "khstudio"
I'm sorry if I missed it but how should they be connected for "Stereo Link"?

for stereo you connect the control signal together, which is pin2 of PL1 in the schematic (the middle of the input gain control)



Probably needs diode isolation to keep time constants from shifting with parallel connection.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 12:23:46 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
Probably needs diode isolation to keep time constants from shifting with parallel connection.

does an original 670 have one ?  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on August 17, 2008, 01:14:11 PM
hello

Treshold question:

I was planning to build the same attenuator for both  treshold and input(12 steps log).But after reading this topic I think i will go for a 3K fixed resistor (lowest treshold I suppose),  combined with a 12 steps 1K per steps.


Is that a good idea ?

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 17, 2008, 01:43:32 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "emrr"
Probably needs diode isolation to keep time constants from shifting with parallel connection.

does an original 670 have one ?  :wink:


No, but every other stereo linked vari-mu does, or it ignores the shift.   There is a good amount of commentary about this in other vari-mu threads.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 17, 2008, 01:45:15 PM
Quote from: "Gachet"
Threshold question:

I was planning to build the same attenuator for both  treshold and input(12 steps log).But after reading this topic I think i will go for a 3K fixed resistor (lowest treshold I suppose),  combined with a 12 steps 1K per steps.

Is that a good idea ?



No idea; have no bench tests yet.    We don't know the operating point.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 02:22:31 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "emrr"
Probably needs diode isolation to keep time constants from shifting with parallel connection.

does an original 670 have one ?  :wink:

No, but every other stereo linked vari-mu does, or it ignores the shift.   There is a good amount of commentary about this in other vari-mu threads.

but this thread is about the poor man, isn't it ?
don't get me wrong, but I think we should put all suggestions, mods etc to an extra thread.
we already have 25 pages here.
it is DIY, you have a lot of experience, feel free to mod the design.
but we have a lot of not so expereienced members in this thread, and my thinking is they could get confused with all the options / mods etc discussed here.
let them build it like it is, if they feel to need any mods they can do later.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 17, 2008, 03:53:20 PM
There's been no mention of the linking to date, and it's not on the schematic.   I was avoiding addressing it until it was brought up.   I consider it relevant to making dual mono and stereo operation match in timing.  The Fairchild fails to correct for this, for better or worse.  As is, in the original design, if you toggle between linked and unlinked the time constants will double/halve because of the nature of paralleling networks. We do not have the complexity of time constant switching found in the Fairchild, so it's not as if I'm suggesting we alter something that already mimics exact original operation.  We don't have mention of any exact time constants with the PM.   As far as I can tell the only thing possibly changed by addition of diodes is the need to overcome the diode voltage drop through additional drive on the threshold control.  Hopefully that explains my thinking, and I shall mention it no more.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 04:03:51 PM
Doug, I understand, and your suggestions and thinkings are welcome.
My thinking is just: we should start another thread for pimping, and leave this one for the "building by numbers" support.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 17, 2008, 04:43:28 PM
PLEASE don't stop discussing the Stereo LINK :!:

Doug,
Since you seem to be pretty knowledgeable with this stuff I think you should start the PM670 MOD's Thread. That way you can man the first pages links & info. I'd start it with this Stereo Link idea. I for one am interested!!!

Volker has been pretty good at keeping the links (on page one) updated & will probably add the MOD Link also. :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 17, 2008, 04:44:26 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]Doug, I understand, and your suggestions and thinkings are welcome.
My thinking is just: we should start another thread for pimping, and leave this one for the "building by numbers" support.


Understood.   How to get the 'option' questions to start in another thread, though?  

I noticed the AC and DC threshold adjustments on page 8 of the Fairchild 670 manual.  At a glance I would assume RV3 and RV6 are to be adjusted to match, and are equivalent to the single DC threshold control in the original.  I don't believe Analag has weighed in about this to date.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on August 17, 2008, 04:44:42 PM
Quote from: "no-fi"
Anyway - in that case, I'll see what I can find around here in the range of 10uF parts... otherwise off to TAW, and more international postage.

It would help us in helping you to have a more precise location than the one currently in your profile. From your earlier mention of AU$ I'm guessing 'somewhere in Oz', right? I believe RS carry EPCOS polypropylenes which may or may not fit the footprint on the PCB*. Then again, knowing RS int'l shipping will look cheap in comparison.

Quote from: "no-fi"
As for the reason I'm asking about switched sidechain circuit components already.... well, I've already done $100 in shipping, so if I knew I might want a bunch of 4 & 8 uF caps in the future, and they had to be high voltage (ie, I also had to order the 10uF Wimas) well, I could order them all at once...

Are there any tube projects that tickle your fancy, like the MILA, the One-Bottle or the G9? 4..10uF output caps are quite useful in many SE tube line output stages.

JDB.

Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 17, 2008, 05:18:49 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
How to get the 'option' questions to start in another thread, though?

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=351648#351648

Quote from: "emrr"
I noticed the AC and DC threshold adjustments on page 8 of the Fairchild 670 manual.  At a glance I would assume RV3 and RV6 are to be adjusted to match, and are equivalent to the single DC threshold control in the original.  I don't believe Analag has weighed in about this to date.

You might have answered your question yourself.
analag will coment this someday, but I have a feeling he is "on vacation" for a new design right now. we will see.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 17, 2008, 07:06:50 PM
Quote from: "jdbakker"

It would help us in helping you to have a more precise location than the one currently in your profile. From your earlier mention of AU$ I'm guessing 'somewhere in Oz', right?


you're right.

Sinney, oztraya. maaaaate!
:-)

Quote
Are there any tube projects that tickle your fancy, like the MILA, the One-Bottle or the G9? 4..10uF output caps are quite useful in many SE tube line output stages.


I was thinking maybe a pultec passive EQ, (or a pair of them!! :-)

that would make 2 compressors (solid state and tube) plus 2 eqs (solid state & tube)

then maybe I'll give DIY a rest for a little while, and learn to use everything!

Quote
  • From what [silent:arts] has written I gather that any 10uF polyprop cap that fits the PCB will do. This excludes the Solen Fast and similar (large) cylindrical caps, and I would personally be wary of no-name Shanghai Specials. It doesn't have to be a WIMA, if you find a polypropylene film part from EPCOS, BC, Panasonic or AVX that has a similar footprint it should work Just Fine. You can get the footprint by measuring the slkscreen on the PCB, or from the WIMA datasheet.
hmmm.. ok, in that case, I probably need the big WIMAs... apart from huge 400V solens, I can get something locally, made by a company called farad - http://farad.net - but I guess that would count as a "shanghai special"... and apart from these, 10uF polypropylene caps are pretty light on the ground.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on August 17, 2008, 07:34:16 PM
Quote from: "no-fi"
Quote from: "jdbakker"

It would help us in helping you to have a more precise location than the one currently in your profile. From your earlier mention of AU$ I'm guessing 'somewhere in Oz', right?


you're right.

Sinney, oztraya. maaaaate!

Ah yes, the first and only place where I've ever seen a sign at a park entrance saying Please walk on the grass.

Quote from: "no-fi"
Quote from: "jdbakker"
  • From what [silent:arts] has written I gather that any 10uF polyprop cap that fits the PCB will do. This excludes the Solen Fast and similar (large) cylindrical caps, and I would personally be wary of no-name Shanghai Specials. It doesn't have to be a WIMA, if you find a polypropylene film part from EPCOS, BC, Panasonic or AVX that has a similar footprint it should work Just Fine. You can get the footprint by measuring the slkscreen on the PCB, or from the WIMA datasheet.
hmmm.. ok, in that case, I probably need the big WIMAs... apart from huge 400V solens, I can get something locally, made by a company called farad - http://farad.net - but I guess that would count as a "shanghai special".

They're pretty much the poster child for Shanghai Specials, yes. [I needed to reformat the URL as http://www.farad.net , BTW]

Quote from: "no-fi"
apart from these, 10uF polypropylene caps are pretty light on the ground.

If you're just looking for an inexpensive way to check whether the circuit works before ordering the WIMAs (/while compiling a larger WIMA shopping list), those parts should work OK, as would Polyethylene/Mylar film caps or (in a pinch) low-ESR bipolar electrolytic capacitors. They may not sound the same as the Real Deal, and the heat from the tubes may shorten their life considerably, but it should work nonetheless.

JDB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 18, 2008, 11:02:43 AM
TRIMMERS

How to set them :?:

What are they for  :?:

I've seem no mention (in Detail)  :wink:

thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 18, 2008, 11:14:52 AM
this will stay secret :wink:
no, for sure analag will explain the function of the trimmers sooner or later.
or follow emrrs post, seems logical.
btw, the prototypes work without tweeking the trimmers

if you mean the trimmers in the PSU:
they are for +12V [not so important] and -17V [very important]
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on August 18, 2008, 04:05:05 PM
Hi Volker, my boards arrived today.
Thank you very much!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 19, 2008, 12:55:30 AM
another question.

I was looking at the 4700uF cap specs recommended in the BOM from mouser, and these parts have a ripple current of 1480 mA.

Now, these caps are being used to filter the rectified heater supply for all the tubes... which is nominally 6A.... so... for a possible ripple current of 6A, are these caps well enough specced? or do we need to go looking for much more heavy duty caps?

Alternatively, is it possible to do away with rectifying and filtering such a large amount of power, and run the tube heaters on AC, like is shown in the fairchild schematics?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 19, 2008, 01:19:42 AM
Quote from: "no-fi"
another question.

I was looking at the 4700uF cap specs recommended in the BOM from mouser, and these parts have a ripple current of 1480 mA.

Now, these caps are being used to filter the rectified heater supply for all the tubes... which is nominally 6A.... so... for a possible ripple current of 6A, are these caps well enough specced? or do we need to go looking for much more heavy duty caps?

Alternatively, is it possible to do away with rectifying and filtering such a large amount of power, and run the tube heaters on AC, like is shown in the fairchild schematics?


First, the official parts list doesn't list a Mouser part #.

I would expect most caps to have fairly similar ripple profiles.  Or at least not appreciable difference.

Single cap stage filtering with far less capacitance on an SA-39 is enough to get the input stage effectively silent, as compared to AC feed.  And that's with much more finicky tubes, IMO.

I'm sure you could do fine with AC on the filaments.....other than the board layout designed for DC.  I guess you could cut traces and play with the black art of hand-wired filament layout.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 19, 2008, 01:23:52 AM
Quote from: "emrr"

I noticed the AC and DC threshold adjustments on page 8 of the Fairchild 670 manual.  At a glance I would assume RV3 and RV6 are to be adjusted to match, and are equivalent to the single DC threshold control in the original.  I don't believe Analag has weighed in about this to date.


RV6 has an equivalent in the Fairchild, and is not the DC threshold setting.  The Fairchild manual offers no clues I've noticed yet as to adjustment.  RV3 does not exist, and may effectively be the DC threshold, implemented another way.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 19, 2008, 09:59:06 AM
Quote from: "emrr"

First, the official parts list doesn't list a Mouser part #.


OK. sorry. I was in a hurry and didn't check the exact supplier name I typed.

you probably realise I meant the farnell part, right?

Quote

I would expect most caps to have fairly similar ripple profiles.  Or at least not appreciable difference.

Single cap stage filtering with far less capacitance on an SA-39 is enough to get the input stage effectively silent, as compared to AC feed.  And that's with much more finicky tubes, IMO.


I think you're talking about ripple voltage in the circuit here... thats not what I was asking about - I was asking about the capacitors ripple current.

A capacitor's ripple current rating, for an electrolytic cap, is a rating of something the cap can stand... a bit like voltage or temperature... It's something you need to stay under. Essentially looking at the current continually going in and out through the cap's ESR gives you an idea of how much power is dissipated in the cap. too much than the cap can handle, and you get an unhappy cap...

Now, these caps we're talking about have a ripple current rating of about 1.4A.... which might be a bit below the amount of ripple current they'll experience in this design.... which will be 6A, from what I've read pn the heater current requirements... So I am worried may cause them to fail very fast.... does anyone have any comment on this?

Quote
I'm sure you could do fine with AC on the filaments.....other than the board layout designed for DC.  I guess you could cut traces and play with the black art of hand-wired filament layout.


well, it does sound like it could be fun...
 :)

hmm..... maybe if all else fails.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on August 19, 2008, 03:03:07 PM
I'm planning to try another way to get the different voltage needed for the pm 670 in case edcor never invoice me...

I've found a transfo 9V 5.56A Is that suitable for stereo unit?
Can use 2 toroidal trannies :
230 to 2X15 and 2X12 to250
Like in G9

Thanks :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on August 19, 2008, 06:38:37 PM
shoot Edcor a email direct.

Parts are the following numbers...


PW670 is power transformer also know as XPWR063
The PW670 is a group buy discount price.

NM670 is the Audio transformers as know as 4x 10K:600R XSM, and 4x XSM 600R:10K
The NM670 is also a group buy number.

Why your ordering think about other projects like NYDave's Reamp 10K:150R etc..

With the One rate box, for $30 USD you can get a decent amount of stuff in there (not sure on power transformer) but you should try and take advantage of shipping.

I just placed a $350 order with them last week, I've been holding out for a long time.

Kaz.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 19, 2008, 06:49:04 PM
Quote from: "kazper"

With the One rate box, for $30 USD you can get a decent amount of stuff in there (not sure on power transformer) but you should try and take advantage of shipping.



I just got my edcor package in Australia on monday (1 x 670 kit and 1 x PSU transformer for the 670)

I can confirm they ship these together internationally for the basic "box" cost (ie it cost me no more shipping to send the PSU transformer with my audio transformer kit on top of what they were going to charge just for the audio transformers) - but my shiping was US$40.

and tell you what - it's a damn hefty PSU transformer!!
:-)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 19, 2008, 06:58:49 PM
the Edcor package is a steal, thanks to codered.
even incl. the customs I had to pay. no joke.

another good news:
will be on vacation with my family for a week - without internet access.

Poor Man packages are all shipped, and I will enjoy this week without you :green:  :green:  :green:

see you next week :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 21, 2008, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: "no-fi"

you probably realise I meant the farnell part, right?

I didn't, and I can't get their site to load and show me data ATM.
Quote
I was asking about the capacitors ripple current.

A capacitor's ripple current rating, for an electrolytic cap, is a rating of something the cap can stand.  Essentially looking at the current continually going in and out through the cap's ESR gives you an idea of how much power is dissipated in the cap. too much than the cap can handle, and you get an unhappy cap...

Now, these caps we're talking about have a ripple current rating of about 1.4A.... which might be a bit below the amount of ripple current they'll experience in this design.... which will be 6A, from what I've read on the heater current requirements.


This seems to have some bearing; did you consider the temperature factor?   Ripple capacity would still be low at best case.  I'm not at all sure if frequency has any significant bearing; I see 100kHz is a ratings standard, but I don't really know what that translates into.  Assume it relates to a higher ESR reference, which would certainly affect temp.  

http://sound.westhost.com/power-supplies.htm#ripple
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 21, 2008, 06:09:45 PM
hey!

frequency doesn't make much difference.

some caps have ripple current specced at both 120Hz and 100k, and the difference is usually around 10% (can't remember what direction the difference is in, but... because low frequency ripple isn't something I have to deal with normally)

I'm not an expert on the boundaries of ripple current (I always just try to stay under with my switchmode designs) but I guess operating temperature will also effect the amount of ripple, since from what I understand, it's the heating effect through the ESR that is the damaging factor with high ripple current.

though isn't part of the problem that the poorman (especially a 670) is going to get pretty hot inside anyway??


At the end of the day, its no biggie - you CAN get caps that will take 6A of ripple, mount them to the chassis, and replace the parts on the board.... I was just wondering if what I suspected as a problem will actually be one, or not....
 :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on August 22, 2008, 07:01:04 AM
regarding the LM317/LM337 section of the PSU (wich dosent show on the schemo) - what would be the curent draw for this part of the circuit?
the -17V is for tube bias,im guessing not too many mA here...
+/- 15V would be for the bypass relays?so for a stereo unit (4 relays)about 100mA ?what else?

im asking to know if they can live with smaller heatsinks...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 22, 2008, 11:38:18 AM
Quote from: "mich"
regarding the LM317/LM337 section of the PSU (wich dosent show on the schemo) - what would be the curent draw for this part of the circuit?
the -17V is for tube bias,im guessing not too many mA here...
+/- 15V would be for the bypass relays?so for a stereo unit (4 relays)about 100mA ?what else?

im asking to know if they can live with smaller heatsinks...


The +17 (or other adjustment) is for.....whatever, so up to you to decide.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on August 22, 2008, 12:30:09 PM
Quote from: "mich"
regarding the LM317/LM337 section of the PSU (wich dosent show on the schemo) - what would be the curent draw for this part of the circuit?
the -17V is for tube bias,im guessing not too many mA here...
+/- 15V would be for the bypass relays?so for a stereo unit (4 relays)about 100mA ?what else?

im asking to know if they can live with smaller heatsinks...


The transformer we used in the prototype provides 15V/1mA for each section. I used the positive rail for the 12V relays and lamps. I recommend to take the heatsinks as suggested in the BOM, since there is a voltage drop of at least 3V, that causes the LM317 to get quite warm.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on August 22, 2008, 01:56:28 PM
emrr wrote:

Quote
The +17 (or other adjustment) is for.....whatever


 - No comprendo.... :roll:


emrr wrote:

Quote
so up to you to decide.


- This i understand easy.


O.k , stick to the plan.after all that buying, a couple more heatsinks wont kill me... :guinness:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 22, 2008, 02:05:03 PM
Quote from: "mich"
emrr wrote:

Quote
The +17 (or other adjustment) is for.....whatever


 - No comprendo.... :roll:


Get Two more VU Meters, purchase JLMs VU Meter Buffer add a DPDT switch and toggle between the input and output of unit using the +17V

So each channel will have a GR meter and an input/output meter too.

 you need the -17V for Bias but to get -17V you will also need a +17V, the +17V isn't needed for the circuit so its just there to use for whatever enhancements you want .. LEDs, VU meter BUffer, anything.......
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 22, 2008, 02:15:06 PM
hey guys

this is more of a theory question but relates directly to the PM.

if you have an input transformer with a CT on the secondary but the circuit doesn't use the CT -- can you just disregard the transformers secondary CT and not use it and all will be fine?

Its painfully obvious why I'm asking this
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 22, 2008, 02:40:30 PM
Short answer in regards to the Edcors appears to be yes.    And a unit meant for PP use should work fine with either built in CT connected or artificial CT.

Long answer:  There are many vintage transformers that are wound specifically with either PP or SE in mind, even SE units with CT's, that will misbehave if used in the other application.  I've seen 15 dB notches at 12 kHz with some vintage PP types used SE.    With an unknown you have to test.   Every SE UTC with CT I've tested gives better response in PP also.  It's a deep well.....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 24, 2008, 05:00:06 AM
TRIMMERS
(how they are set in analags unit)
got this news via eMail:
Quote from: "analag"
RV3 is adjusted to -2.4V and RV6 is set to -4.5V
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on August 24, 2008, 06:48:22 PM
Good news

analag wrote:
Quote

RV3 is adjusted to 2.4V and RV6 is set to 4.5V


Does that mean 2,4V beetween pin 2 of trimmer and ground?

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 25, 2008, 04:21:58 AM
sorry guys, corrected the voltages to negative ...

Quote from: "Gachet"
Does that mean 2,4V beetween pin 2 of trimmer and ground?

yes
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on August 25, 2008, 06:26:40 PM
Hi, Kevin just sent me an email that the 6 steps for time constant are not possible to do with rotary switch
as original Fairchild uses more complex circuit for time constant.

Can we talk about this?

My limited knowledge tells me that every pot value can be copied with a fixed resistor value. Or am I wrong here?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 25, 2008, 06:42:54 PM
Quote from: "Purusha"
My limited knowledge tells me that every pot value can be copied with a fixed resistor value. Or am I wrong here?

you are right.

we are not building a fairchild one to one clone - this would be poor.
but the poor man shares the same topology :green:

for the poor man time constant switch:
use what ever you prefer. a pot if you like unstepped control, an expensive 24 steps elma switch, or a 6 step to have a more original look alike.

but for sure the time constant steps won't be the same side by side with an original fairchild ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on August 25, 2008, 07:09:12 PM
Quote
for the poor man time constant switch:
use what ever you prefer. a pot if you like unstepped control, an expensive 24 steps elma switch, or a 6 step to have a more original look alike.

but for sure the time constant steps won't be the same side by side with an original fairchild ...


OK, that is good enough for me  :thumb:

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 25, 2008, 07:33:08 PM
Quote from: "Purusha"
Hi, Kevin just sent me an email that the 6 steps for time constant are not possible to do with rotary switch
as original Fairchild uses more complex circuit for time constant.


you should be able to easily copy the time constant switch. you'd just have a bunch of components hanging off the switch...
 :grin:

if you go looking at the 670 schematic, it's simply a 2x6 switch, that switches in various networks of R and/or C across the main "fixed" RC... just like our pot and his little friends sit across the fixed RC in the poorman.

The issue would be if the circuit driving this (ie, the sidechain amp and transformers!) can drive it the same way that the sidechain amp in the fairchild does.... and if the gain reduction circuitry in the poorman pulls the same load that it does in the fairchild.... that's what I was asking in a roundabout way earlier on.

If not, then the RC circuit will act differently, and values would all need to be scaled to suit.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on August 26, 2008, 03:42:17 AM
That is one way to go I guess.

Maybe Volker can share with us how he did his time constant with 6 steps?
What resister values and so on.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 26, 2008, 07:02:00 AM
Quote from: "Purusha"
Maybe Volker can share with us how he did his time constant with 6 steps?
What resister values and so on.

mhm, this was really hard to get right, will keep this as my secret :green:
how to substitute a 10K lin pot with a 6 position switch and 5 resistors ...
where is my calculator ? what is 10K / 5 ??? :green:  :green:  :green:
 :oops:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on August 26, 2008, 10:17:30 AM
OK, I know this but I thought you maybe used something different than linear the end...  anyway  :?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 26, 2008, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: "Purusha"
OK, I know this but I thought you maybe used something different than linear the end...  anyway  :?

I'm totally happy with analags original design, and still don't understand why people want to mod it before they have build and heard it.
mine is an original poor man :thumb:
never mind, I'm only surprised how many people want to mod before they build it.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on August 26, 2008, 11:57:20 AM
Hi there,
some people asked for a picture of how to set up a rotary switch for the PM670. I used the Uraltone switches 2 decks 24 positions. In order to limit to 21 positions, you have to open the screws of the switches and make your own stopper with a piece of plastic (attention: hold together the blue rings with the contacts, otherwise the switch will fall apart) Use Volkers Excel calculator to find the resistor values for a 15k log pot. Here is a picture of how I soldered the resistors (not nice but not too bad for the first try)


(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/Uraltone_switches_004.jpg)


regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on August 26, 2008, 12:02:24 PM
Thanks, man that was quick!!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on August 26, 2008, 12:55:02 PM
bernbrue  WHATS THE DIMENSIONS OF YOUR POORMAN CASE?

DID IT FIT IN WITH OUT ANY GIGGERY  POKERARY


SKAL1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 26, 2008, 01:03:54 PM
CAN'T HEAR YOU ...

(but ok)
I THINK 30CM
OK?
(since we used the same case)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on August 26, 2008, 01:14:34 PM
:green:  :thumb:  Well, I have to wear glasses since last week but I´m still not deaf.  :musique:
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on August 26, 2008, 01:38:40 PM
ok 30cm is this the width or the height ?


skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on August 26, 2008, 01:42:12 PM
skal,
it´s this one
http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat069_l2.php?n=1
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on August 26, 2008, 01:50:20 PM
thanks


skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on August 26, 2008, 07:14:20 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
never mind, I'm only surprised how many people want to mod before they build it.


well, I can't speak for others, but I just wanted to place orders for stuff with future possibilities in mind. I have always been going to have the basic pot-based design in there, but was already thinking of adding switched settings alongside that... and therefore looking to pre-order any bits for that if they looked like they might be problematic to find easily... because to me, the switched circuit looks like it adds in a bunch of different kinds of responses that won't be gettable with the basic variable R and fixed C.

anyway - wimas and electros from laura at taw (she is great!) should arrive soon.. then I can get building this thing and see for myself!!
:-)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 26, 2008, 10:21:21 PM
EDCORE XPWR063 - Power for PM670 ***WRONG*** ???

Look Here:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=353395
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 26, 2008, 11:59:22 PM
Quote from: "khstudio"
EDCORE XPWR063 - Power for PM670 ***WRONG*** ???

Look Here:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=353395


Sounds wrong for sure.  I haven't looked back at the Edcor spec as originally described to see what was stated.  

We haven't heard any test results on the USA GB toroid either; curious to hear.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 27, 2008, 12:24:31 AM
Quote from: "emrr"
Quote from: "khstudio"
EDCORE XPWR063 - Power for PM670 ***WRONG*** ???

Look Here:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=353395


Sounds wrong for sure.  I haven't looked back at the Edcor spec as originally described to see what was stated.  



I just tested it & it is definitely WRONG :!:  :mad:

I measured aprox = 17v full across
& aprox = 8.5v from each end to the Center Tap!!!


Damn... not only did I miss out on the Toroidal Group Buy, but I'm left with no PT for this project.
It's not like WE picked the wrong one... Brian saw the thread about the PM670 PT (& the required specks) & HE offered this one, saying it had ALL the right specks. Now I have to pay to ship it back & wait some more.
It's now the only part I'm missing to complete this project.

 :sad:

Did anyone else order the EDCORE XPWR063 :?:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 27, 2008, 12:32:25 AM
looks like the Edcor power xfrmr order was described and taken correctly:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=27678&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=edcor+xpwr063&start=60
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 27, 2008, 04:24:56 AM
+/- 17V PSU
standard pos/neg PSU using LM317 and LM337:
schematic (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU17V-Schematic.pdf)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 27, 2008, 05:06:18 AM
thanks - corrected
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on August 27, 2008, 01:07:15 PM
go with Heyboer next time


 :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 28, 2008, 07:09:46 AM
Quote
fazeka wrote:
Hi Analag (or anyone else who may have an answer),

I read somewhere that Fairchild when building the originals removed the diode bridge from the Simpson VU meters, essentially making them DC milliammeters:

Fairchild 670 meter thread

My question: can I use my pair of Simpson model 127 1 mA DC milliammeters instead of VU meters for the PM670?
emrr wrote:
Placement of 5K meter trim; in series to meter?

depends on your meter I think.
for my standard VU I used it in parallel and had no problems to zero it, tracking was fine.

I see that people asked about "Vu" but can't see right answer about. To me PM's "VU" looks like ma meter with Vu scale :?  So, since nobody mentioned that I must ask. Am I correct? I think that regular VU can't pass DC in series and in this PM topology it seems the way it is. So, final question is, is this the simple 1ma meter ? or something else... :?:  Or, let me ask from different view. Can PM work without "VU" placed across 22k resistor? I think it can't . Please let's clear this out  :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on August 28, 2008, 07:23:27 AM
Hi,
with a VU meter you are on the save side. In my prototype I used ordinary 250mA ampermeters with a 100R resistor parallel. I compared the tracking to a Beede VU meter and there is not really a big difference. My suggestion: Build it an try various meters, in the end it´s your choice.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on August 28, 2008, 08:20:12 AM
Bernd, may I ask why you set your rotary switches to stop at 21 positions?
Was it just your preference?

Thanks, David
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on August 28, 2008, 08:33:05 AM
21 positions correspond with the ordinary potentiometer turn (don´t know how much degree that is).
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 28, 2008, 08:43:36 AM
Quote from: "bernbrue"
Hi,
with a VU meter you are on the save side. In my prototype I used ordinary 250mA ampermeters with a 100R resistor parallel. I compared the tracking to a Beede VU meter and there is not really a big difference. My suggestion: Build it an try various meters, in the end it´s your choice.
regards
Bernd

So, I'm right about. It's ma meter not VU. But would it be better to use less sensitive ma meter and to add serial resistance to trim zero. BTW, can you tell me value for the current in the non GR state. That should be the max current and it will be helpful to determine meter sensitivity.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 28, 2008, 08:51:34 AM
I don't think it will work without a meter - like many other vari mu compressors.
the specification for the poor man is a VU meter (and I used one in my prototype, AL39).

doesn't mean anything other could work, 1ma would be closest as far as I know.
but:
NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN ATTEMPTED IN THE FIELD WITH A PM660 :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 28, 2008, 09:10:04 AM
Quote
I don't think it will work without a meter - like many other vari mu compressors.
the specification for the poor man is a VU meter (and I used one in my prototype, AL39).

doesn't mean anything other could work, 1ma would be closest as far as I know.
but:
NONE OF THIS HAS BEEN ATTEMPTED IN THE FIELD WITH A PM660 Mr. Green

Thanks, but can you tell me what's the static current in the 18db gain mode?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 28, 2008, 10:29:51 AM
volker ,
Is there any way you could ask Rowan about the Meters?
(I'm a little surprised we don't see him around here a little more, supporting his design.)

I have several different types laying around (as do many others here)

It would be cool to know if DC Meters are OK to use and @ what range(s)?

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 28, 2008, 10:33:46 AM
Quote
I have several different types laying around (as do many others here)

It would be cool to know if DC Meters are OK to use and @ what range(s)?

Yes! Since this is the PM project we must use some things laying around. That's why I asked details about meter :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 28, 2008, 10:57:58 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
Is there any way you could ask Rowan about the Meters?
(I'm a little surprised we don't see him around here a little more, supporting his design.)

why bother rowan with questions already answered ?
he is working on something new, and there is already enough support to build this Poor Man. me and bernd have been able to build it without any support.

read bernbrues and my posts again and you can answer the meter questions.

if you want to be safe take a VU meter as suggested by Rowan.
if you want to experiment with other meters this is fine, but don't claim for support in advance.

moby, I have no direct access to my poor man at the moment, will do the measuring when it is possible (which won't be this or next week)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 28, 2008, 11:20:46 AM
Sorry man... I thought it was a simple request.  :?

Your response is "try it & see"... this doesn't work out too well when I test it, then it "seems" to work OK... then I CUT my faces plate & use it, then either the Meter or the circuit fails or doesn't work properly.

#2, since a V-MU Comp relies on the meter, is it possible a DC meter could affect the performance???

Rowan could answer this in 20 seconds.

Like I said, I've got a lot of nice old DC meters so...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 28, 2008, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
Sorry man... I thought it was a simple request

it might look like a simple request ...

didn't bernd answer it already ?

even rowan can't foresee what you will like best.
as said before: if you want it like rowan designed and suggested:
use VU meters

we can't test all the possible extras for 200+ builders, and we can't tell who likes what best.

but if you want to go the safe way, take it easy:
- prototypes work with VU meters
- in the schematic there is a VU meter
- in the parts list there is a VU meter
- we told you to use a VU meter
- nobody said you can't use any other meter, but we have to say:
THIS HAS NOT BEEN ATTEMPTED IN THE FIELD WITH A PM660
since it may react different, it may not work for you, it may work even better for you ...
sorry, but with support we want to be on the safer side.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on August 28, 2008, 11:53:03 AM
A vari-mu comp will indeed work without a meter; you just don't have a meter then.    Many switch a standard VU in and out between GR and VU, and even positions for external source, so nothing in the circuit is connected to it at all.  So use whatever you like, but you'll have to figure it out and trim it yourself.  Some do it plate side, some do it cathode side.  Lots of variables to hack.  

Any optional solutions should be presented over here:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=351648#351648
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on August 28, 2008, 09:19:26 PM
OK, fair enough.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 29, 2008, 08:45:35 AM
Quote
moby, I have no direct access to my poor man at the moment, will do the measuring when it is possible (which won't be this or next week)

Thanks, it will be really important info for me, if someone else can measure the same thing I appreciate that  :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on August 29, 2008, 09:08:52 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
volker ,
Is there any way you could ask Rowan about the Meters?
(I'm a little surprised we don't see him around here a little more, supporting his design.)

I have several different types laying around (as do many others here)

It would be cool to know if DC Meters are OK to use and @ what range(s)?

Thanks,
Kevin


I work a 12 hour at night shift and lately I've been working everyday or should I say night, so if I get a little too tired to get on the forum when I know Volker is handling business...then hey.


You can use an ordinary VU meter, you just have to tweak the parallel resistance to bring it to "0" I don't see the need to go re-scaling mA meters when any old ordinary VU will do the trick.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 29, 2008, 09:42:04 AM
Quote
I don't see the need to go re-scaling mA meters when any old ordinary VU will do the trick.

Just to clear out...VU meters with diode bridge are excluded :?:
Please can you measure the total steady-state current for input stage in the non GR mode?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 29, 2008, 10:02:30 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
Just to clear out...VU meters with diode bridge are excluded :?:

no, they are the supported meters
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 29, 2008, 10:10:03 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
Please can you measure the total current for input stage in the non GR mode?

will do - at the moment my prototype is in pieces since I measured different Heater resistors in different conditions, and had to clear out my "workspace" for the birthday party of my daughter next week.
when I'm back up and running I can do this measurement, but not before.
in the meantime, stuff your board, connect everything and connect your meters to see how they react.
btw, to null the VUs I connected a 5K trimmer across it.
gain reduction tracking was great :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on August 30, 2008, 10:18:02 AM
To  how it may concern c1 and c3 in the psu part list have a different value to

the ones on the silk screen,which is the correct value ,parts list or silk screen.


regards

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 30, 2008, 10:33:54 AM
in the parts list posted on the first page of this thread they are the same as the silk screen: 220µF / 400V
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU660_rev02-PartsList.pdf

however, the silk screen is always more important than the parts list.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on August 30, 2008, 10:48:08 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]in the parts list posted on the first page of this thread they are the same as the silk screen: 220µF / 400V
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU660_rev02-PartsList.pdf

however, the silk screen is always more important than the parts list.


I beg to differ ,even your parts list shows the same c1,c3 as  200u, but lets not split hairs 220uf is ok....


regards

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 30, 2008, 10:50:51 AM
ah, overlooked that, thanks.

doesn't matter, take 200uF or 220uF.
220uF will be easier to source.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on August 30, 2008, 10:53:13 AM
word up


skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on August 31, 2008, 08:52:54 AM
WIRING GUIDE

working on this at the moment, feel free to report possible mistakes.
it is not completed right now, but the more complicated connections are in.

http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PoorMan-WiringGuide.pdf
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on August 31, 2008, 08:59:48 AM
looking great! I didn't checked the possible errors , but thanks  :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on August 31, 2008, 06:57:19 PM
Quote

 
It would be great if that would work.
Than we could use these switches.
http://www.uraltone.com/kauppa/product_info.php?products_id=1077



These are exactly the same switches I use for my prototype. Haven´t finished soldering the resistors yet, but the quality of these switches is great.
regards
Bernd      


regarding these switches, can they be stoped at other positions? e.g 21 steps ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on August 31, 2008, 07:38:44 PM
Hi Volkar or whoever may assist.

I am wondering if it as at all possible to provide a wiring diagram for this project simmilar to that provided by guys like Joe at JLM Audio here:
http://www.jlmaudio.com/JLM%20Dual%2099v%20wiring%20overlay.pdf

I realise that many will do different variations but for those like me who will stick with the original plan and common transformers and switches etc.. it would save novices like me from a potential catastrophie.

 Pleeeeeze :razz:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on August 31, 2008, 08:52:02 PM
I am having trouble getting my head around these stepped attenuators. I have the same ones that Bernd is using. Maybe someone can post a simple diagram for hookup?  I have been looking to no avail......

Thanks everybody,
David
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 01, 2008, 03:31:54 AM
Quote from: "bernbrue"
Hi there,
some people asked for a picture of how to set up a rotary switch for the PM670. I used the Uraltone switches 2 decks 24 positions. In order to limit to 21 positions, you have to open the screws of the switches and make your own stopper with a piece of plastic (attention: hold together the blue rings with the contacts, otherwise the switch will fall apart) Use Volkers Excel calculator to find the resistor values for a 15k log pot. Here is a picture of how I soldered the resistors (not nice but not too bad for the first try)


(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/Uraltone_switches_004.jpg)


regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 01, 2008, 06:01:08 AM
Thanks!!

i saw that info a while back but overlooked....didnt realize they are the same switches.....everything clear now :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 01, 2008, 08:49:27 AM
Quote from: "rrs"
I am wondering if it as at all possible to provide a wiring diagram for this project simmilar to that provided by guys like Joe at JLM Audio here:
http://www.jlmaudio.com/JLM%20Dual%2099v%20wiring%20overlay.pdf

 :?:  :?:  :?:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=444

still a work in progress, but what does it looks like :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on September 01, 2008, 09:27:37 AM
sorry for my electronics ignorance. i have tried to research befor asking but why is  a 2 deck attenuator needed for each single channel. perhaps i dont understand the difference between the attenuator in the  compressor as opposed to an input or volume attenuator on a preamp or amplifier?
can someone explain?
does anyone have a source for the uraltone switches in north america?
thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 01, 2008, 09:56:20 AM
you need one deck for the positive and one for the negative signal.
like the original this design is symmetrical.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on September 01, 2008, 10:04:44 AM
simple reason! makes perfect sense. thanks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on September 01, 2008, 07:08:46 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "rrs"
I am wondering if it as at all possible to provide a wiring diagram for this project simmilar to that provided by guys like Joe at JLM Audio here:
http://www.jlmaudio.com/JLM%20Dual%2099v%20wiring%20overlay.pdf

 :?:  :?:  :?:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=444

still a work in progress, but what does it looks like :green:


How did I miss that ?
It was on the same page. :shock:

Looking Great and easy to follow so far.

Big Thanks  :thumb:

[edit] actualy thats odd, I posted that before you put it up. The posting times seem out of order :?:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on September 04, 2008, 10:12:52 AM
Hey everybody, does anyone have any part numbers for all the molex connectors needed for a stereo unit?

Thanks,
David
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 05, 2008, 12:23:56 PM
Hi,
here´s a chart with an English translation of the PM670 power transformers wire colors from the European groupbuy:

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/normal_groupbuy_powertx_002.jpg)



Volker, would you please set a link to this post on 1st page?
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on September 05, 2008, 10:25:39 PM
Hi


can ant one tell me what this means 0,6W ? .Does it mean 1/2 watt ,if not can anyone point me in the right direction where i can buy single resistors for the  crippling man.


regards

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Sorr on September 06, 2008, 04:25:12 AM
skal1

1/2 watt means 0.5W and 0.6W means a tad over.

I used the Axial 0.5W/0.75 1% metal film from RS Components.
Tight bend on the leads and they just fit on the PCB
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 06, 2008, 07:52:40 AM
1/4 watt works fine
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 06, 2008, 06:31:43 PM
Hi there,
finally finished mine. :grin:

(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_001.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_002.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_003.jpg)

(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_011.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_012.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_013.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_015.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_017.jpg)
(http://www.silentarts.de/diy/pm660/bernbrue/Fairchild_670_ready_018.jpg)

regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: ruairioflaherty on September 06, 2008, 06:49:19 PM
Hi Bernd,

fantastic build!  Any chance of another beautiful piano sample?, I was just listening to your earlier sample this morning.

BTW I hadn't forgotten your request about the meter scale, I found my scanner and my old laptop with the drivers.  I am taking apart the meter now.  Only thing is that I think yours are quite different to mine but you should be able to adapt it.

Will be in touch.

Cheers,
Ruairi
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on September 06, 2008, 07:21:24 PM
Thanks for the info sorr and volker..

regards

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: guavatone on September 06, 2008, 07:29:42 PM
beautiful Bernd, very pro
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on September 06, 2008, 07:56:01 PM
:shock:  KILLER!!! :thumb:
Inspiring.

A few questions:

What size is your case HxWxD?

What size/brand/type are the Meters?

Can you comment on the switch "Tapers"... like which you used for what & how do you like it after using it?

And last, I noticed that you used a switch for the Ratio/Attack...
How did you set that up & do you feel it gives enough detailed adjustment.

Thanks man & GREAT Job,
Kevin
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on September 06, 2008, 08:10:51 PM
Kevin

His case looks like a 3 RU and around 14" deep.... Well I was pretty close from a guess

Bernd A++ very well done!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Emperor Tomato Ketchup on September 06, 2008, 08:39:16 PM
:thumb:   Very nice Bernd!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: waldorfcave on September 07, 2008, 04:35:39 AM
WOW Bernd :shock:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 07, 2008, 05:06:26 AM
Bernd, as always: :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 07, 2008, 05:45:46 AM
WoW Bernd!!! :thumb:

How does it sound?
Are the two channels sounding the same?
I mean enough to use in stereo mode?

Do you have any sample yet?


Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on September 07, 2008, 09:20:42 AM
Holy crap! Thats a nice build. I cant believe im going to build one myself. Looks pretty darn complicated  :green:

great work!
/J
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on September 07, 2008, 10:15:01 AM
Plowwwww!!!!
Thx Bernd , this motivate me to start mine...despite I had not the tubes...(No good site/link to get them???)
Cheeers :sam:  :guinness:  :sam:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 07, 2008, 10:55:17 AM
Quote
Are the two channels sounding the same?


Whay shouldnt they?



Quote
...(No good site/link to get them???)


- tubesandmore.com
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 07, 2008, 01:33:47 PM
Thanks mates,
this compressor is worth every hour I´ve spent to built it. It´s not really a difficult but quite complex built. Stuffing the boards was easy, wiring takes some time, mainly because I had neither a wiring guide nor a help thread as you have, but Volker was very helpful and gave a lot of hints, thanks mate.

The rotary switches took me almost two full days, since I haven´t done it before, but in the end everything worked fine. The Time Constant switch with 6 settings is fine, especially when you want to use it as mastering compressor. Soundwise I like the longest attack/release (6) most, because it gives the mix a very smooth and dense character.

As I mentioned before, a VU meter is the best choice and recomended by Rowan. Other meters work as well. I tried several, VU, 100 uA, 250uA and 1mA meters. I finally took the 100uA meters, because they looked and fitted best. Pay attention while fiddling around with various meters, there is fairly high voltage on the meters.

The uraltone switches are nice and quite easy to solder, although there are better (but more expensive) ones. The enclosure is 3U with 300mm depth from: http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat069_l2.php?n=1
Vented covers for your enclosure are highly recomended, 2U for a stereo unit is a no go. Stereo tracking (two channel linked) is fine now, the values for RV3/RV6, that Rowan gave us, are a good starting point.

I posted a lot of pictures here to give also less experienced builders an impression what it could look like and to learn from. I´m a musician and have only a vague idea of what all the components in there are good for. Well, I did some other tube stuff before, but honestly, I don´t have the faintest idea of all the maths that is behind it. With a bit of patience and care everybody should be able to build this nice piece of gear.

Thanks to Rowan for this superb compressor and to Volker for the splendid pcb layout. It was a real pleasure to beta test this beast (Volker, I love the T-shirt you made for me).
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on September 07, 2008, 03:24:26 PM
Quote from: "mich"
[
Quote
...(No good site/link to get them???)


- tubesandmore.com


Thx!! :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on September 07, 2008, 06:01:14 PM
@bernbrue

Did your buy your heat sinks from reichelt elekronik ?

regards


skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on September 08, 2008, 04:57:22 AM
Quote from: "bernbrue"
Thanks mates,
this compressor is worth every hour I´ve spent to built it. It´s not really a difficult but quite complex built.

Thanks to Rowan for this superb compressor and to Volker for the splendid pcb layout. It was a real pleasure to beta test this beast (Volker, I love the T-shirt you made for me).
regards
Bernd


What a sexy looking rendition of my baby (http://www.groupdiy.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif). Hey no T-shirt for me?

Rowan
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on September 08, 2008, 04:59:55 AM
Berndbrue : have you got a pic of the Fairchild logo please???
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 08, 2008, 01:54:01 PM
Dear Mister RedNoise,
where´s your spirit of DIY? It´s very easy to do with Frontpanel Designer (Schaeffer). No big deal at all.

Rowan, I´m honored, and yes, sexy is the right word for it.  :grin:
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grand Master Audio on September 08, 2008, 02:21:51 PM
superb job as always!

would love to hear drums before and after being squashed if you get the time...

 :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 08, 2008, 02:24:20 PM
Quote from: "analag"
Hey no T-shirt for me?

Rowan, let me know your shirt size.
you will get one for the next project :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Holger on September 08, 2008, 04:45:34 PM
Bernd, really cool device. I like the meter trim pot idea  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 08, 2008, 05:24:02 PM
The meter trim pot idea is indeed very nice  :guinness:

Also the XLR to bypass board (if not using neutrik) idea rocks  :guinness:  :guinness:

Impressive build  :thumb:

Bernd, did you use Log on the Threshold switch too?

With the Uraltone switches - i had good results with a small piece of those plastic restraints that you use for holding your wires together. it bends right into the slit in the switch and works wonderfull as a stoper.(just get the small ones and cut to legnth)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 08, 2008, 05:34:54 PM
Quote from: "mich"
The meter trim pot idea is indeed very nice  :guinness:

Also the XLR to bypass board (if not using neutrik) idea rocks  :guinness:  :guinness:

Impressive build  :thumb:

Bernd, did you use Log on the Threshold switch too?

With the Uraltone switches - i had good results with a small piece of those plastic restraints that you use for holding your wires together. it bends right into the slit in the switch and works wonderfull as a stoper.(just get the small ones and cut to legnth)


Hi,
yes, I used log on both, gain and threshold. I did the stopper exactly the same as you did. Almost as if these plastic restraints were made for that  :grin: The meter trimpot idea was the result of 7 days headache  :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on September 08, 2008, 07:06:25 PM
Aaaaaarfff....You're right dear mister Berndbrue!!I'm learnin'...I hope DIY spirit will grow in me... :oops:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on September 08, 2008, 08:15:05 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "analag"
Hey no T-shirt for me?

Rowan, let me know your shirt size.
you will get one for the next project :green:


The next project will have five twin triodes for stereo operation(http://www.groupdiy.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif). You know what it is.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 09, 2008, 05:52:45 AM
Quote from: "analag"

The next project will have five twin triodes for stereo operation(http://www.groupdiy.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif). You know what it is.

analag


Volker, I hope you still know my T-shirt size ??!!! Rowan, I really like your subliminal messages  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on September 09, 2008, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: "analag"


The next project will have five twin triodes for stereo operation(http://www.groupdiy.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif). You know what it is.

analag


What a tease.  Can you reveal an approximate ETA?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 09, 2008, 12:04:54 PM
Quote from: "analag"
The next project will have five twin triodes for stereo operation(http://www.groupdiy.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif). You know what it is.

analag

 :green:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
just what I need next :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on September 09, 2008, 02:06:17 PM
:shock:
 :?:  :?:  :?:
 :green:
Title: to linear or to log, dB?
Post by: nielsk on September 09, 2008, 07:03:01 PM
Is there any consensus on the switching tapers , input and threshold, from working units?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on September 09, 2008, 08:18:29 PM
For sh*ts and giggles, here's today's response comparison of Edcor WSM600/10K and WSM600/10K.  200 ohm source, 10K secondary load (direct balanced feed from audio interface, balanced input of audio interface).  Very little difference.  1 kHz adjusted to same reference level, in reality the XSM had slightly higher insertion loss.  

CHART LINK (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2844615176_05d7266708_o.png)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on September 09, 2008, 08:42:49 PM
In the case of the PM66/670 the difference in which one you choose for the outputs ( GR/CV) is in the wire size and coil resistance, bro. I think the $2.00 extra is a true bang for your buck.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on September 10, 2008, 12:30:11 AM
Quote from: "analag"
In the case of the PM66/670 the difference in which one you choose for the outputs ( GR/CV) is in the wire size and coil resistance, bro. I think the $2.00 extra is a true bang for your buck.

analag


Right; I'm talkin' about the input side just for the feck of it.  'Cause inquiring minds have wanted to know.  

I'm really not worried about saving anyone $8 on a stereo build.  :wink:

About the outputs, I found the coil resistance of all my XSM's to be higher than my WSM's, which was a surprise.  Maybe actually the same wire on a larger bobbin?  I'm talkin' as much as 10% higher.  

Clearly the paint by numbers crowd need to stick with the plan.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on September 10, 2008, 12:57:49 AM
How about inductance, did you measure that? If so how much of a difference is there (XSM10K:600 showed something like 20H across the primary). Personally I never even bothered trying theWSM series after checking the spec sheet.

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on September 10, 2008, 02:33:22 AM
Quote from: "analag"
How about inductance, did you measure that? If so how much of a difference is there (XSM10K:600 showed something like 20H across the primary). Personally I never even bothered trying theWSM series after checking the spec sheet.

analag


No inductance meter here, but the frequency chart shows what one would assume to be higher inductance for the XSM input given same test conditions.   Appears negligible, especially since we're taking input side in regards to the chart.  

Max level in the outputs is clearly not negligible, especially in the side chain amp, and I wouldn't expect to sub the WSM into output duty.  The Edcors really are quite amazing $10 transformers.   On a frequency chart, they beat the crap out of many pricey vintage equivalents.  Which is not to say they necessarily beat them in other regards, and nothing implied in that statement either.  The spec sheets?  Generic to the series, and not terribly detailed:

WSM Maximum Input:   0.5 watts (RMS)
Frequency Response:   20~30,000 Hz, +/- 0.5 dB
Insertion Loss:   0.5 dB

XSM Maximum Input:   2.5 watts (RMS)
Frequency Response:   20~20,000 Hz, +/- 1 dB
Insertion Loss:   0.5 dB

I'll be giving both input types a listen in circuit at some point.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: syn on September 11, 2008, 03:32:45 AM
It sure would be nice if someone would publish detailed data on the Edcors
so one could look for a substitute if one wishes to do so... Any help greatly appreciated .
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 11, 2008, 08:22:30 AM
Bernd, great craft  :grin:
Quote
As I mentioned before, a VU meter is the best choice and recomended by Rowan. Other meters work as well. I tried several, VU, 100 uA, 250uA and 1mA meters. I finally took the 100uA meters, because they looked and fitted best. Pay attention while fiddling around with various meters, there is fairly high voltage on the meters.


Can you be so nice and tell me info about static current in the first stage? Will be nice to know about current with max GR :grin:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Mrosso on September 11, 2008, 03:23:27 PM
Payment sent for 2 660 + 1 PSU

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: laura on September 11, 2008, 07:36:04 PM
Hi! I'm a newly invited supplier of WIMA, offering a special prices for all members of this cool group... I must say I have never seen them displayed so beautifully!  It is great to finally see what these go in to! I can tell by all the posts you are very talented!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on September 11, 2008, 09:15:39 PM
Hi Laura.
Good to see you here and thank you again for your support for many of us with the Wima's including myself.

You a lifesaver  :thumb:  :guinness:  :sam:
Title: laura
Post by: shabtek on September 11, 2008, 11:50:44 PM
Laura is top notch folks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on September 13, 2008, 05:14:49 PM
I love Laura!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jackies on September 13, 2008, 07:09:45 PM
Wow, very nice of Laura to stop by... Will be placing an order soon..
 :cool:
Though I was contemplating using soviet paper capacitors instead of wima...
Anyone has any experience with those?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 13, 2008, 08:29:57 PM
Thats great Laura. Wecome :grin:  btw , check the www link in your profile I think that one "r" is missing  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on September 13, 2008, 09:13:38 PM
Quote from: "jackies"
Wow, very nice of Laura to stop by... Will be placing an order soon..
 :cool:
Though I was contemplating using soviet paper capacitors instead of wima...
Anyone has any experience with those?


Wima has paper caps too ... not sure how they sound but I did want to try them.
The paper Russian caps are supposed to be nice... when can you find them???
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Viitalahde on September 14, 2008, 05:14:22 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
The paper Russian caps are supposed to be nice... when can you find them???


eBay. I just recently bought a lot of different values. They're pretty lovely and have a lush sound that might be just too much if used everywhere.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 14, 2008, 05:20:27 AM
always remember: in the poor man there are no caps in the audio path
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 14, 2008, 05:23:52 AM
Quote from: "laura"
Hi! I'm a newly invited supplier of WIMA, offering a special prices for all members of this cool group...

Hi Laura, this is a nice offer and makes the decision of worldwide available parts for future projects more easy.

now we need the same for europe, australia, africa and asia :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mikeyB on September 14, 2008, 07:31:56 AM
Q for analag - after seeing that the BIG Wima's are in the side chain - why is the voltage rating so high :?:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 14, 2008, 07:54:36 AM
Quote from: "mikeyB"
Q for analag - after seeing that the BIG Wima's are in the side chain - why is the voltage rating so high :?:

this has been discussed before ...

but you have now the chance to show us an easy available 10µF poly substitute with a lesser voltage rating :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on September 14, 2008, 12:11:07 PM
Can any body help me buy these heat sinks from www.reichelt.de .I  need 2xV PR32/38,1 and 4xV PR32/25,4 .This is a German site so i need some one who can speak German ..


regards

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mikeyB on September 14, 2008, 12:20:52 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "mikeyB"
Q for analag - after seeing that the BIG Wima's are in the side chain - why is the voltage rating so high :?:

this has been discussed before ...

but you have now the chance to show us an easy available 10µF poly substitute with a lesser voltage rating :wink:



 :oops: Sorry - must have missed that one  :oops: ok - i'm sure there are readily available 10u63V - used em in G9 1st stage cathode? Anyhow - it would be possible to parallel up a few lesser values :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 14, 2008, 12:40:37 PM
yes and yes and if we would have gone that way other members would have asked why those WIMAs doesn't fit  :roll:
it is impossible to include all possibilities.

and hey, those WIMAs are the main eye-catcher in the PCB design :green:  :green:  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jackies on September 14, 2008, 03:21:11 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]always remember: in the poor man there are no caps in the audio path

 :shock:  I have yet to see the schematic, so i assumed wimas were...
No PIO caps for side chain!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 14, 2008, 08:19:27 PM
Well, I'm not sure how important are MKP quality caps in the sidechain  :?  Anyway I will go with recommended and try to compare after with some cheaper block alternative, say MKS wima series... :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on September 15, 2008, 07:25:01 PM
Can someone of the beta testers/builders comment on how the poorman compares to the D-AOC ? More specific....what would be best for on the master bus?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 16, 2008, 10:39:43 AM
Quote from: "radiance"
Can someone of the beta testers/builders comment on how the poorman compares to the D-AOC ? More specific....what would be best for on the master bus?


IMO the PM670 seems the best choice for mastering. It has the typical vari mu sound when compressing only a little bit. When driven quite hard it adds a pleasant colour. The signal gets quite dense with a lot of body.

The D-AOC´s character is less obtrusive and less audible, it preserves the overall sound of the signal.

All depends on what you want, PM670 for gentle to beefy compression, D-AOC for very cautious, almost unaudible compression.

regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on September 16, 2008, 12:57:01 PM
Quote from: "bernbrue"


The D-AOC´s character is less unobtrusive and less audible, it preserves the overall sound of the signal.

regards
Bernd


Do you mean "less obtrusive?"  Or "unobtrusive?"  As written, you have a double negative which means it IS obtrusive, which contradicts the second half of your sentence... which left me confused about what you were saying.

:wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 16, 2008, 01:03:05 PM
:grin:  edited. Sorry, I´m not a native speaker.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on September 16, 2008, 01:10:33 PM
Ich weiss.  You're English is excellent.  Americans do the same thing all the time.  

Thanks so much for all your help with this project (and others).

Sorry for the OT.  (And now we know how to characterize these compressors.)  :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 16, 2008, 06:30:29 PM
here is my work in progress - still waiting on the edcor power replacement- even that this one could work too..hey,if they were so kind to send another one without additional charges ,then why not use it.. :grin:

im also posting this (eventhough not finished) to get you guys and girls going!....its nice seeing everybodys work for nice ideas and tricks...like bernd's cool mounting of the meter trim.inspired by his idea,i thought of something even simpler - just drill a small (3mm) hole and glue a small trimer (the one with the screw on it) to the inside of the faceplate. hope you can see it in the clumsy foto..

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/mich4/IMG_1317.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/mich4/IMG_1319.jpg)

(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/mich4/IMG_1320.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 16, 2008, 06:42:44 PM
looking nice :thumb:
keep the photos coming :grin:

what we can see here: other tube sockets can be modified to fit ?
what WIMAs did you use for the 10µF ?
they are physically smaller then the suggested ones :?
(good we included those different footprints)

for sure this will be a beauty once fitted with suitable knobs :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 16, 2008, 06:55:43 PM
The sockets - they were an ordering mistake from tubesandmore...but they are ceramic, and were very cheap (90 cent each?) and after some pin cuting they went into the pcb.. thats why i wanted to label this VPM670 - you can guess why... :wink:

The caps are Wima MKS4 10uF/100V - sorry,no part # - i bought them localy.

Quote
for sure this will be a beauty once fitted with suitable knobs  


- any suplier for these?..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 17, 2008, 08:11:07 AM
Quote
The caps are Wima MKS4 10uF/100V - sorry,no part # - i bought them localy.

I'm pretty sure that MKS4 will do the job ;-)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: nielsk on September 17, 2008, 09:56:53 AM
Still no consensus on rotary switch tapers?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 17, 2008, 10:00:49 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
I'm pretty sure that MKS4 will do the job ;-)

me too

Quote from: "nielsk"
Still no consensus on rotary switch tapers?

will always stay a matter of taste
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on September 17, 2008, 05:42:17 PM
found a uk alternate for the heatsinks.

Rapid
36-0190 and
36-0316

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Semiconductor-Hardware/Heatsink/Vertical-mount-TO220-heatsinks/60159

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Semiconductor-Hardware/Heatsink/Compact-vertical-TO220-TO218-TO247-heatsink/60146
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on September 18, 2008, 05:33:44 AM
I was wondering about one thing before i stuff the pcbs. I havent really built any tube stuff before, and was wondering since i saw in drip electronics LA2A build manual that he had elevated the resistors crossing the heater tracks on pcb a few millimeters so that they werent flush against the board.

Is this something i should to for the poor man? On all resistors, or just some of them? Any other components that i should do this with in case it needs to be done?

Or can just stuff the pcb like i normally would?
(I already stuffed the D-AOC pcbs the normal way, and now im worried i did something wrong).

Please advice!
/Jonas
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 18, 2008, 05:38:10 AM
Hi,
just solder the resistors the "normal" way. There is no need to elevate the components.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on September 18, 2008, 06:47:40 AM
Great, thanks!
/J
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 20, 2008, 11:03:30 AM
Hi bernbrue

What value of heater resistor did you use?
I have used 1R 50 W and I'm having 4.3V instead of 6,3 and the resistor is heating a lot.there are no shorts.
Should i use that white matter i used for heat sink and regulator?
Should i raise or down the resistor value?


Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 20, 2008, 11:12:22 AM
let it heat up a while for measuring.
if you still have 4,3V try the a lower value of the resistor.
and yes, the resistor is getting hot. mount it to the chassis.

which PSU transformer do you use ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 20, 2008, 11:27:46 AM
Hi,

It is already mount on the chassis.And I was wondering if I should use the white paste to conduct more heat to the chassis.

I tried both transformers edcor and bernbrue's.The torroidal is slightly higher but it still a lot under 6.3V.I think I should be happy with something between 5.8V and 6.8V.

 :?:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 20, 2008, 11:43:15 AM
After 10 minutes heating it raised to 4.6V.
What value do you suggest ? 0.47R or 0.56R?

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 20, 2008, 12:54:06 PM
something between 0,56Ω and 1Ω
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 20, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
Thanks :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 22, 2008, 10:53:53 AM
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/mich4/IMG_1325.jpg)

Here is what i got with the Edcor power, an 0.33R 50W resistor and after conecting the pilot lamp.....
also, if you try different resistors with crocodile leads,take into acount the wire legnth... :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 22, 2008, 12:50:55 PM
perfect :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on September 22, 2008, 01:44:58 PM
nice one !

about the case: Bernd uses this one
http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat069_l2.php?n=1

but would that ensure enough cooling ? there is also this one with more cooling holes and heatsinks at the sides
http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat078_l2.php?n=1

it is a pity that you can buy from them only as a company. or can everyone buy easily from them ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 22, 2008, 01:52:08 PM
Hi,
you´re right with these cases. I had no problem buying items as private person. The cases are of great quality. Vented covers might be a good idea.

http://www.modushop.biz/ecommerce/cat098_l2.php?n=1

regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 22, 2008, 02:00:58 PM
I bought the same with vented covers and no company - no problem.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on September 22, 2008, 02:36:00 PM
okay, thanks :)

I am thinking of the 3U case with vented cover and two frontpanels (black and grey)

edit: ordered :)

still awaiting the edcors and rotary switches. also a nice pair of meters - those sifam meters are ridiculously expensive  :?  any thoughts ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 23, 2008, 09:40:56 AM
Hi,

I have some problem troubleshooting the psu...
I have 186V and 106V instead of 245V and 136V.
I have double checked resistors ,changed the 3 mpsa transistors and the irf 820 but nothing changed.
Before regulator I have 324V and 188V.

What should I change or do?

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 25, 2008, 07:43:58 AM
:?  nobody has an idea?

I am really in a deadlock.I need a few answers to understand how the psu is supposed to behave.
Can someone at least explain me what is going on around the irf 820 Q4?
What voltage do you have on pin 2 of Q4?

If  Q5 is not fed with 245 V it won't be abble to supply 136V because of fixed gain, right?

thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on September 25, 2008, 08:19:00 PM
Check if D7 is the correct zener, then measure the voltage on the emitter of Q3.
Did you handle Q4 properly during installation?

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on September 25, 2008, 08:52:31 PM
Hi,
You mean that Q4 needs special care?
Like using proper heatsink with heat conducting grease?
Or discharge hands on earth before handling ?

At the moment I can't measure Q3 emitter voltage as I manage to rebuilt on a separate board all the things between C4 and R8.

I used 100 V 1.3W zener diode for d7


Thanks Analag.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: delaymix on September 26, 2008, 11:15:14 AM
A number of issues not finish a good understanding of everything.

1) In relation to the previous statement that explains Volker about the split control of constant time in 6 divisions. I do not know very well if Volker to explain this is joking or serious ... my english is not good. I understand that the division is correct for a linear scale. In the case if so... would be 10K / (number of positions - 1);

0 position: 0 K
1 position: 2 K
2 position: 2.5 K
3 position: 3.3 K
4 position: 5 K
5 position: 10 K

Is this correct?
To perform this function, from the standpoint of sound would be better to use a logarithmic scale?

2) In relation to the rotary switch that controls the threshold. In terms of manageability, Is it better that the scale is linear or logarithmic?

3) I've thought about putting meters Sifam AL29WF. In this case, do we need a Zero control to adjust the starting point for measuring the gain reduction?

4) Does it make sense to see the meter in the GR and the output level? How could I do to commute between GR and the output level on the meter?
5) After reading the whole thread, I was not at all clear how to make the function link. In practical terms, What is the procedure for implementing the control link to a stereo unit?
Thanks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 26, 2008, 02:02:42 PM
Quote from: "delaymix"
A number of issues not finish a good understanding of everything.

1) In relation to the previous statement that explains Volker about the split control of constant time in 6 divisions. I do not know very well if Volker to explain this is joking or serious ... my english is not good. I understand that the division is correct for a linear scale. In the case if so... would be 10K / (number of positions - 1);

0 position: 0 K
1 position: 2 K
2 position: 2.5 K
3 position: 3.3 K
4 position: 5 K
5 position: 10 K

Is this correct?
To perform this function, from the standpoint of sound would be better to use a logarithmic scale?.


Simply solder five 2K resistors on a 2x6 Lorlin (pin 1-6) to get a 10K linear pot. Works fine!

Quote

2) In relation to the rotary switch that controls the threshold. In terms of manageability, Is it better that the scale is linear or logarithmic?


I think that a log scale is better here
Quote

3) I've thought about putting meters Sifam AL29WF. In this case, do we need a Zero control to adjust the starting point for measuring the gain reduction?.


Yes (trimpot parallel to meter)

Quote

4) Does it make sense to see the meter in the GR and the output level? How could I do to commute between GR and the output level on the meter?


Lorlin 2x6, connect meter to A and B, for GR from pcb to pin 1 and 7, for output level from output XLR (+/-) to pin 2 and 8 (add 3k6 resistor in series)

Quote
5) After reading the whole thread, I was not at all clear how to make the function link. In practical terms, What is the procedure for implementing the control link to a stereo unit?
Thanks


for stereo you connect the control signal of each channel (audio pcb) together, which is pin2 of PL1 in the schematic (the middle of the input gain control)

regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: nielsk on September 26, 2008, 02:16:37 PM
Bernbrue,
you wrote in response to this question:
 

2) In relation to the rotary switch that controls the threshold. In terms of manageability, Is it better that the scale is linear or logarithmic?
 


I think that a log pot is better here

Does this mean you have tried the 24 position dual switch set up as linear and as log in this position and prefer the one set up as log? Or that you have found a 15K dual pot to work here and prefer a log taper?

thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 26, 2008, 02:35:01 PM
Quote from: "nielsk"

Does this mean you have tried the 24 position dual switch set up as linear and as log in this position and prefer the one set up as log? Or that you have found a 15K dual pot to work here and prefer a log taper?
thanks!


While prototype testing I first tried ordinary log and linear potentiometers. After that I decided to set up my 24 pos dual switch as a 15K log pot. Hope this makes it clear.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 26, 2008, 03:44:39 PM
Quote
Lorlin 2x6, connect meter to A and B, for GR from pcb to pin 1 and 7, for output level from output XLR (+/-) to pin 2 and 8 (add 3k6 resistor in series)

If you disconnect VU how you achieve the first stage supply?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on September 26, 2008, 04:44:24 PM
Quote
If you disconnect VU how you achieve the first stage supply?


intresting question..the supply curent will still flow through the 22K resistor that is parallel to the meter (and into the CT of T2)- but that leads to think that the circuit (first stage) will behave different depending on the meter used?
because the meter is forming a parallel network with the 22K "droping resistor" and depending on its own DC resistence afect the curent geting to the anode of the tube?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: nielsk on September 26, 2008, 04:47:51 PM
Thanks for the reply, Bernbrue
So are you happy with the way BOTH the input and threshold controls behave when when set up as log? Can you describe the different behavior of the threshold control between log and linear?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on September 26, 2008, 07:17:16 PM
Quote from: "mich"
- but that leads to think that the circuit (first stage) will behave different depending on the meter used?
because the meter is forming a parallel network with the 22K "droping resistor" and depending on its own DC resistence afect the curent geting to the anode of the tube?


I was also wondering the same thing... like how different meters "Could" affect the circuit.

BTW... would THESE meters from JLM Audio work?
http://www.jlmaudio.com/VU%20Buffer.htm

Would I need the "Buffer" circuit too?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 26, 2008, 09:18:51 PM
Quote
because the meter is forming a parallel network with the 22K "droping resistor" and depending on its own DC resistence afect the curent geting to the anode of the tube?

Guys, I asked this question just after I saw the schematics. Answer "just the VU" is absolutely not adequate because every VU has internal DC resistance few Kohms. In parallel with 22k it's still few Kohms and voltage drop can be huge depending on current flow. That's not the same like original design, because everybody knows that original Fchild has ma meter instead of VU. Correct me if I'm wrong... Also, current is not steady it varies depending from GR that's why I expect ma meter on the place of VU (small internal resistance).  Designers, please, lets clear this out. Can you give us voltage after VU connected or simply give us steady current in non GR mode so we can calculate the rest. I hope that I'm no asking too much  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Larrchild on September 27, 2008, 12:15:18 AM
The internal insulation characteristics of certain audio VU meters may not dig sitting at a few hundred volts above ground.
Careful.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 27, 2008, 04:17:26 AM
Quote from: "nielsk"
Thanks for the reply, Bernbrue
So are you happy with the way BOTH the input and threshold controls behave when when set up as log? Can you describe the different behavior of the threshold control between log and linear?


Yes! With linear scale gain and threshold max is reached already in the first quarter of the turn, with log scale the range is spread over the whole turn. Concerning VU/GR switch I just explained how I would realize that, but in my prototype the meter (100uA) shows GR only. I realized that when the meter is disconnected, gain slightly decreases.
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on September 27, 2008, 04:59:06 AM
Hi Bernd,
thanks for all the information. Did you realize those stepped attenuators as ladder types or even bridged H types?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 27, 2008, 06:23:14 AM
Quote
Concerning VU/GR switch I just explained how I would realize that, but in my prototype the meter (100uA) shows GR only.

This thing makes me crazy. You can't connect ua meter directly to output and measure level. For that purpose you need Vu. On the other side if you go with the VU you must know which VU you choose since every model has his own internal DC resistance.
29W0-100UA0-30-1000ohm
29W0-1MA0-100  -50ohm
29W4-20MA0-100 -1ohm

and so on.... Now please read this! Voltage drop is not the same for 1000 and 1 ohm! Voltage drop is not the same with current of 10ma at 1000 ohm resistance and 1 ohm resistance and since this unit has dynamic current voltage will be changed a lot with 1000 ohm meter or less with 1 ohm. So, you can't say just VU or ua meter. Guys, you insist about MKP wimas in the sidechain because of fancy look and don't want to pay attention on the electronics-sonic details. I don't get this  :evil:
And please give me the info of damned current of the first stage so I can choose the right meter and maybe save the time and money for the people who is just trying to connect this as Lego thing  :green:
Quote
I realized that when the meter is disconnected, gain slightly decreases.
If you go with 1ohm meter you will not have that issue  :!:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 27, 2008, 01:05:47 PM
Quote from: "Moby"

This thing makes me crazy. You can't connect ua meter directly to output and measure level. For that purpose you need Vu. .....

So, you can't say just VU or ua meter. Guys, you insist about MKP wimas in the sidechain because of fancy look and don't want to pay attention on the electronics-sonic details. I don't get this  :evil:


Dear Moby,
I´m not really motivated to answer questions that imply this insisting and offending tone. If you read my posting carefully you would have realized that I used a 100 uA amperemeter to measure gain reduction only, not level. There is no need to push things forward with  :twisted:  :evil: or other emoticons. I answered lots of questions twice, simply because people don´t read the infos. I receive pmails from people asking me to check their part lists and so on. That´s not my part and I´m not willing to do this. For my part, I can only report about my experience. I don´t know if you´ve already started the project, but concerning meters you should make your own tests.

Quote
Guys, you insist about MKP wimas in the sidechain because of fancy look and don't want to pay attention on the electronics-sonic details. I don't get this


Feel free to take whatever WIMAs your like, we do not insist on anything.

regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 27, 2008, 01:25:39 PM
Quote
I´m not really motivated to answer questions that imply this insisting and offending tone.
Sorry but this wasn't offending tone. That's my reaction about mixing apples and oranges. If you remember I asked you twice about voltage drop around your meter and you never gave me the answer. Sorry but Vu, or 100ma meter can be a lot of different things. I'm sure that this design need a ma meter as GR meter but I don't have all my parts to do the test so I asked you. Is it so hard to put the voltmeter on the one side of your ua meter than on the other side and to give needed info, so I can order appropriate meter ? At the very end you gave the guy suggestion to switch VU (or ua meter, whatever...) to the output of the unit to measure output level and to feed the first stage through 22k resistor? If you ever gave me the voltages i asked I will calculate the huuuge voltage drop but now I can only imagine that.... :wink:  OK , if you still think that my tone is offending how you going to describe your advice? Please think again about and be honest. P.S. I'm giving you a  :guinness:  :sam:  anyway  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on September 28, 2008, 04:03:40 PM
bernd, thanks for answering all the questions :thumb:
have been away from the internet for a few days.

to make some things clear I read in the last posts:

PMs or eMails are the very wrong way to get support for this project.
ask your questions in here this thread.

neither bernd nor me are designers of the circuit. this is one reason we can't answer questions about the design. if you have questions about the PCB design I can give you the answers, but NOT about the schematic.

components: some components are suggested by the designer of the circuit (WIMAs, VUs). fact is they work, thus I don't question it. if you don't want to use those parts - it is still DIY - and you have to find out yourself if they work.

VUs: the original used VUs, diode bridge removed. the original showed gain reduction only, no output or input level. if you want to switch between gain reduction and  output it may be possible using a VU meter, but this is DIY again.

best
 :sam:  :guinness:  :sam:  :guinness:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on September 28, 2008, 07:56:12 PM
There is no huge voltage drop across the VU meter. Most modern VU's will work just fine, simply parallel connect a variable resistance across the VU terminals and that's it. If you want want to have the VU showing input, output and GR, then you will have to do the connections via switch which really ain't hard at all.  

analag
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 29, 2008, 07:24:39 AM
Thanks guys, I'm really sorry if I hurt someone's feelings, but some things are really confusing me. OK, I will stop asking about VU ma meter, but since I still don't have all my parts collected (transformers and tubes) I would like to prepare all mechanics etc.... That's why I constantly and desperately ask about current through meter. Also, since this is DIY some segments are left to be customized what I really like  :grin: , so please if it's possible tell me about current in the 1st stage. Or, voltage at the top of the meter and bottom...  :thumb:  One more info will be useful. Current with maximum Gain reduction. Thanks (without inappropriate emoticons)  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on September 29, 2008, 02:25:26 PM
today I did the psu and compressor pcb stuffing, dead easy ! these pcb's are very well made !

yesterday they delivered the case. still awaiting the edcor's and the rotary switches...

some pics: http://www.mijnalbum.nl/Album=ALRKO4FX
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on September 29, 2008, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: "Moby"
Thanks guys, I'm really sorry if I hurt someone's feelings, but some things are really confusing me. OK, I will stop asking about VU ma meter, but since I still don't have all my parts collected (transformers and tubes) I would like to prepare all mechanics etc.... That's why I constantly and desperately ask about current through meter. Also, since this is DIY some segments are left to be customized what I really like  :grin: , so please if it's possible tell me about current in the 1st stage. Or, voltage at the top of the meter and bottom...  :thumb:  One more info will be useful. Current with maximum Gain reduction. Thanks (without inappropriate emoticons)  :wink:


Since you changed your avatar, your postings leave a much better impression.  :cool:  :wink:  :green:

without any meter attached, measured at PL3:
max GR: 54,3V
min. GR: 54,7V
I close my PM670 now and put it back into the rack,ok?

regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on September 29, 2008, 10:05:49 PM
Thanks Bernd. I'm glad you like mu new-old avatar  :wink:
I presume that voltages are after 22k resistor... or some other value maybe?? Hmmm, I'm a bit confused with voltage results, strange, I expected some current change with gain reduction. 0.4v looks more like mains variation  :wink:  I hope you didn't just turned the treshold pot without signal.... Anyway, if you measured through 22k resistor 80V drop is telling that unit can't work normally without meter. If someone really want to switch the meter from GR to Out switching scheme must include additional resistor instead of meter. In that circumstances (I think that recommended meter has DC res around 1k) 1k parallel to 22k will do the proper job.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 01, 2008, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: "Gachet"
:?  nobody has an idea?

I am really in a deadlock.I need a few answers to understand how the psu is supposed to behave.
Can someone at least explain me what is going on around the irf 820 Q4?
What voltage do you have on pin 2 of Q4?

If  Q5 is not fed with 245 V it won't be abble to supply 136V because of fixed gain, right?

thanks

I don't know did you solved your problem but anyway, I will try ho help. Pin2 of Q4 should have voltage close to source because it has just small (47) resistance in series. So I should say it should be around your voltage after bridge. BTW, are you measure PSU disconnected from unit? Fat can be sensitive to "open" infinite resistance. About Q5 you are right ,it  it does not stabilize the voltage but it's capable for variable current without voltage swing. You must have stable 245V on input to measure 135V. Since you have 188V on the Q5 it's normal that output voltage is around 100v.Hope it helps, since I still don't have my unit working this calculation is just from theory so someone should confirm this from measuring.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on October 02, 2008, 10:43:53 AM
Thanks Moby

No I haven't solved my problem as long I am waiting for new fet and zener to build again the 245 V supply.

So I think :
-I won't power the psu without charge
-I will mount the fet with myself connected to earth

And hope it will work...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 02, 2008, 12:28:17 PM
one more (maybe stupid) question. Did you double checked the resistors values?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on October 02, 2008, 12:57:12 PM
Yes ... Measured and color code check before etching.
And color code check while troubleshooting.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 02, 2008, 01:31:24 PM
do you have 100v on zener? If yes than must be broken fet...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on October 02, 2008, 01:57:44 PM
I'll check this after I rebuilt the psu :)
At the moment it's out of order because of desoldering etc...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: labak on October 03, 2008, 05:13:28 AM
Hi ALL!

I'm looking at this schemo and i'm thinking about adding an SRPP output, with an ECC83 going to an ECC82, make up, or recovery or like you want!

Who could tell me if it is possible or not!

Who already think about it?

Tell me more!

Cheers
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on October 03, 2008, 05:26:51 AM
:?: What is point, extra gain stage :?:

There's plenty of gain.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: labak on October 03, 2008, 05:46:07 AM
Would you like to say it's an automatic gain compensation!

It gives automaticly what it's reducing?
Title: PARTS - SPECS
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 05:46:55 AM
PLEASE DON'T WORRY!!!
TAKE A FREE DRINK FROM OUR FULL FREEZER
AND BE QUITE
WE ARE FILLING A NEW FULL BOM LIST WITH MORE DETAILS
DIRECT LINKS PRICE ECC....
ABOUT
PM+660 PART LIST .
WELLCOME  IS WHO WONT TO ADD SOME DATA - (THANKS IN ADVANCE)
***
1)
ALL RESISTORS MUST BE 250-350-700....VOLTS???

2)
TRIMPOT - 5K BY MOUSER CODE  3296Y-1-502LF http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=T7l%2fPuJnbcQ857qUhxMrRA%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    Bourns    
Product Category:    Trimpots - Multi Turn    
Resistance:    5 K Ohms     Tolerance:    10 %    
Power Rating:    1/2 W    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 150 C    
Dimensions:    9.53 mm W x 9.53 mm L    
Product:    Trimpots    
Termination Style:    Radial
OK WITH ABOVE SPECS?

3) CAPACITORS
1 x 220n WIMA MKS2 C3  MOUSER CODE - MKS2-.022/63/10http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYlk%252baz8u5C7Kw%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    WIMA    
Product Category:    Polyester Film Capacitors    
RoHS:     Details    
Capacitance:    0.022 uF    
Tolerance:    10 %    
Voltage Rating:    63 Volts    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 100 C    
Termination Style:    Radial    
Dimensions:    2.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 6.5 mm H    
Product:    Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors    
Lead Spacing:    5 mm
-
 
1 x 15 WIMA MKS2 C1MOUSER CODE - MKS2-1.5/63/5http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYked8ouHkpvPA%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    WIMA    
Product Category:    Polyester Film Capacitors    
RoHS:     Details    
Capacitance:    1.5 uF    
Tolerance:    5 %    
Voltage Rating:    63 Volts    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 100 C    
Termination Style:    Radial    
Dimensions:    5.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 11.5 mm H    
Product:    Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors    
Lead Spacing:    5 mm
-
2 x 10 WIMA MKP4 C2,C4MOUSER CODE - MKP4-10/250/10http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYn4RFg1reqifQ%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    WIMA    
Product Category:    Polypropylene Capacitors    
RoHS:     Details    
Capacitance:    10 uF    
Tolerance:    10 %    
Voltage Rating:    250 Volts    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 100 C    
Termination Style:    Radial    
Dimensions:    19 mm W x 41.5 mm L x 32 mm H    
Product:    Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors    
Lead Spacing:    37.5 mm
-
4)DIODES
4 x 1N4148 D1,D2,D3,D4 MOUSER CODE -78-1N4148http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=TNTIDjy6APqozHdyHHFUGA%3d%3d
Product Category:    Diodes (RF, Signal, Switching, Power)    
RoHS:     Details    
Configuration:    Single    
Termination Style:    Through Hole    
Package / Case:    DO-35    
Reverse Voltage:    100 V    
Forward Voltage:    1 V @ 0.01 A    
Forward Continuous Current:    0.15 A    
Max Surge Current:    2 A    
Reverse Current IR:    0.025 uA    
Recovery Time:    8 ns    
Packaging:    Reel    
Product:    Switching Diodes    
PartsPerReel:    10000
-
5-TUBES:
www.tubedepot.com
DON'T HAVE NOS STOCK WITH THIS CODES
2 x 6BC8 V1,V2www.tubedepot.com NOS-6BC8

THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE
2 x 5687 V3,V4www.tubedepot.com NOS-5687
THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE

6-SOCKETS:
FOR NOW CODES CORRESPOND
4 x Noval Ceramic PCB 18mm V1,V2,V3,V4
www.tubedepot.com SK-9PINPC2
www.tube-town.net sk-9-18-PCB
-
TO BE CONTINUED..........
Title: TIME 2
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 05:54:49 AM
7-TRANSISTORS:
 :guinness:  :sam:  :sam:  :guinness:  :sam:  :!:
Title: TIME 2
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 05:55:00 AM
7-TRANSISTORS:
 :guinness:  :sam:  :sam:  :guinness:  :sam:  :!:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on October 03, 2008, 05:55:18 AM
Quote
It gives automaticly what it's reducing?


Oh, is that what SRPP means?

suppose that might be cool, could just push up the fader tho.
gona need a bigger box... what are we on now 5U!
Title: PARTS - SPECS
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 06:25:36 AM
PLEASE DON'T WORRY!!!
TAKE A FREE DRINK FROM OUR FULL FREEZER
AND BE QUITE
WE ARE FILLING A NEW FULL BOM LIST WITH MORE DETAILS
DIRECT LINKS PRICE ECC....
ABOUT
PM+660 PART LIST .
WELLCOME  IS WHO WONT TO ADD SOME DATA - (THANKS IN ADVANCE)
***
1)
ALL RESISTORS MUST BE 250-350-700....VOLTS???

2)
TRIMPOT - 5K BY MOUSER CODE  3296Y-1-502LF http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=T7l%2fPuJnbcQ857qUhxMrRA%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    Bourns    
Product Category:    Trimpots - Multi Turn    
Resistance:    5 K Ohms     Tolerance:    10 %    
Power Rating:    1/2 W    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 150 C    
Dimensions:    9.53 mm W x 9.53 mm L    
Product:    Trimpots    
Termination Style:    Radial
OK WITH ABOVE SPECS?

3) CAPACITORS
1 x 220n WIMA MKS2 C3  MOUSER CODE - MKS2-.022/63/10http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYlk%252baz8u5C7Kw%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    WIMA    
Product Category:    Polyester Film Capacitors    
RoHS:     Details    
Capacitance:    0.022 uF    
Tolerance:    10 %    
Voltage Rating:    63 Volts    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 100 C    
Termination Style:    Radial    
Dimensions:    2.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 6.5 mm H    
Product:    Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors    
Lead Spacing:    5 mm
-
 
1 x 15 WIMA MKS2 C1MOUSER CODE - MKS2-1.5/63/5http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYked8ouHkpvPA%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    WIMA    
Product Category:    Polyester Film Capacitors    
RoHS:     Details    
Capacitance:    1.5 uF    
Tolerance:    5 %    
Voltage Rating:    63 Volts    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 100 C    
Termination Style:    Radial    
Dimensions:    5.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 11.5 mm H    
Product:    Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors    
Lead Spacing:    5 mm
-
2 x 10 WIMA MKP4 C2,C4MOUSER CODE - MKP4-10/250/10http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYn4RFg1reqifQ%3d%3d
Manufacturer:    WIMA    
Product Category:    Polypropylene Capacitors    
RoHS:     Details    
Capacitance:    10 uF    
Tolerance:    10 %    
Voltage Rating:    250 Volts    
Operating Temperature Range:    - 55 C to + 100 C    
Termination Style:    Radial    
Dimensions:    19 mm W x 41.5 mm L x 32 mm H    
Product:    Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors    
Lead Spacing:    37.5 mm
-
4)DIODES
4 x 1N4148 D1,D2,D3,D4 MOUSER CODE -78-1N4148http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=TNTIDjy6APqozHdyHHFUGA%3d%3d
Product Category:    Diodes (RF, Signal, Switching, Power)    
RoHS:     Details    
Configuration:    Single    
Termination Style:    Through Hole    
Package / Case:    DO-35    
Reverse Voltage:    100 V    
Forward Voltage:    1 V @ 0.01 A    
Forward Continuous Current:    0.15 A    
Max Surge Current:    2 A    
Reverse Current IR:    0.025 uA    
Recovery Time:    8 ns    
Packaging:    Reel    
Product:    Switching Diodes    
PartsPerReel:    10000
-
5-TUBES:
www.tubedepot.com
DON'T HAVE NOS STOCK WITH THIS CODES
2 x 6BC8 V1,V2www.tubedepot.com NOS-6BC8

THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE
2 x 5687 V3,V4www.tubedepot.com NOS-5687
THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE

6-SOCKETS:
FOR NOW CODES CORRESPOND
4 x Noval Ceramic PCB 18mm V1,V2,V3,V4
www.tubedepot.com SK-9PINPC2
www.tube-town.net sk-9-18-PCB
-
TO BE CONTINUED..........
Title: pm660 parts TIME2
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 06:34:22 AM
3-
CAPACITORS
WHAT VOLTAGE?
(supplyers change code frequently then better know voltage about)
-------
4-
DIODES
code 1N4148
ma ??  100? 150? 350? 500?
(supplyers change code frequently then better know voltage about)
------
to  be continued

(beer break for all)
Title: Re: pm660 parts TIME2
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 03, 2008, 06:58:56 AM
Quote from: "SIXTYNINER"
(beer break for all)

how many have you had already ? :green:  :green:  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 07:03:39 AM
at now half cargo
 :shock:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 03, 2008, 09:41:32 AM
:sam:  :guinness:  :sam:  :sam:  :guinness:  :sam:  :sam:
STOLEN FROM THE CARGO OF THE TV SPOT.....

 :shock:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on October 09, 2008, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]HEATER PSU

the Heater PSU is a rectified, unregulated one.
the bridge rectifier should be a 12A or more, mounted off board to the chassis. they look like this:
(http://www1.conrad.de/xl/5000_5999/5000/5010/5011/501107_RB_00_FB.EPS.jpg)
behind the rectifier we have:
(http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU3.png)
we want to be as near as possible to 6.3V, this is done by the value of R15.
again: this resistor is mounted off board and gets very hot. a 50W resistor is a good idea, something like this:
(http://images.conrad.de/xl/4000_4999/4200/4210/4214/421421_BB_00_FB.EPS.jpg)
now, what value do we need ?
according to my data sheets:
6BC8 @ 6.3V = 400mA
5687 @ 6.3V = 900mA
this results in 2.6A heater consumption EACH channel.
now you can do the math :green:

one problem we have with the "right" value of R15:
- mains voltage will vary
- the secondary of each transformer will vary
- the consumption of each tube will vary

best thing is to have a few values handy to test it.


OK guys you got me on this one.

I've been resisting the urge to ask but as this is the last piece I need to order so I'm just going to have to swallow my pride and admit I have know idea what were talking about here.  :oops:

I am building the stereo version with  Codered's US group buy Toroid Transformer  (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28247&highlight=pm660[/url)
 ( Hoping I can wire this up for 240V usage we have here in Australia).
                   
 Is this something I will have to wait for others in the know to work out when the Toroid arrives in arround November or do we have enough info on this already?
Title: 5 and 7 pin terminal block
Post by: lewilson on October 09, 2008, 08:41:45 PM
Where can I get the 5 and 7  pin terminal blocks for the power supply pc board?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 09, 2008, 09:26:29 PM
Quote
Is this something I will have to wait for others in the know to work out when the Toroid arrives in arround November or do we have enough info on this already?

Well as you can read there is no rule of thumb for this resistor since voltage is not regulated. If you want to order something and you are not sure about exact current running for heaters I will advice to go with variable resistor so you can trim and purchase the resistors later.
Quote
Hell with buying a bunch of 50W Resistors.... buy yourself one of these 50W suckers and then do the test/measurements to buy the right value. You can use it with for all your future projects.....
(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/photo.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on October 09, 2008, 10:51:27 PM
as per the heater supply. is there a reason why an unregulated heater supply is preferred in this application?   can we use a regulated supply or is it not practical in this circuit?  heat an issue???
sorry if its obvious i'm teaching myself electronics. im only 2 years into this/thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 10, 2008, 04:32:46 AM
HI
SOMEONE HAVE INFO ABOUT PM 660 PARTS BOM LIST
WITH COMPLETE TECH SPECS TO COMPARE WITH THIS??????

(data here down are for compary no more confirmed)
-------------------
1)
ALL RESISTORS MUST BE 250-350-700....VOLTS???

2)
TRIMPOT - 5K BY MOUSER CODE 3296Y-1-502LF \0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=T7l%2fPuJnbcQ857qUhxMrRA%3d%3d\0\0
Manufacturer: Bourns
\0Product Category: Trimpots - Multi Turn \0
Resistance: 5 K Ohms \0Tolerance: 10 % \0
Power Rating: 1/2 W \0
Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 150 C \0
Dimensions: 9.53 mm W x 9.53 mm L
\0Product: Trimpots \0
Termination Style: Radial\0\0
OK WITH ABOVE SPECS?\0

3) CAPACITORS
1 x 220n WIMA MKS2 C3 \0MOUSER CODE - MKS2-.022/63/10\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYlk%252baz8u5C7Kw%3d%3d\0\0
Manufacturer: WIMA \0
Product Category: Polyester Film Capacitors \0
RoHS: Details \0
Capacitance: 0.022 uF \0
Tolerance: 10 % \0
Voltage Rating: 63 Volts \0
Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 100 C \0
Termination Style: Radial \0
Dimensions: 2.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 6.5 mm H \0
Product: Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors
\0Lead Spacing: 5 mm\0\0
-

1 x 15 WIMA MKS2 C1\0MOUSER CODE - MKS2-1.5/63/5\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYked8ouHkpvPA%3d%3d\0\0
Manufacturer: WIMA \0
Product Category: Polyester Film Capacitors
\0RoHS: Details \0
Capacitance: 1.5 uF
\0Tolerance: 5 % \0
Voltage Rating: 63 Volts \0
Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 100 C
\0Termination Style: Radial
\0Dimensions: 5.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 11.5 mm H \0
Product: Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors \0
Lead Spacing: 5 mm\0
-
\02 x 10 WIMA MKP4 C2,C4\0MOUSER CODE - MKP4-10/250/10\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYn4RFg1reqifQ%3d%3d\0
Manufacturer: WIMA
\0Product Category: Polypropylene Capacitors \0
RoHS: Details \0
Capacitance: 10 uF
\0Tolerance: 10 %
\0Voltage Rating: 250 Volts
\0Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 100 C \0
Termination Style: Radial
\0Dimensions: 19 mm W x 41.5 mm L x 32 mm H
\0Product: Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors \0
Lead Spacing: 37.5 mm\0
-
4)DIODES
4 x 1N4148 D1,D2,D3,D4 \0MOUSER CODE -78-1N4148\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=TNTIDjy6APqozHdyHHFUGA%3d%3d\0\0
Product Category: Diodes (RF, Signal, Switching, Power)
\0RoHS: Details \0
Configuration: Single \0
Termination Style: Through Hole \0
Package / Case: DO-35
\0Reverse Voltage: 100 V \0
Forward Voltage: 1 V @ 0.01 A \0
Forward Continuous Current: 0.15 A
\0Max Surge Current: 2 A
\0Reverse Current IR: 0.025 uA \0
Recovery Time: 8 ns \0
Packaging: Reel \0
Product: Switching Diodes \0
PartsPerReel: 10000\0
-
5-TUBES:
www.tubedepot.com\0
DON'T HAVE NOS STOCK WITH THIS CODES\0
2 x 6BC8 V1,V2\0www.tubedepot.com NOS-6BC8\0

THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE\0\0
2 x 5687 V3,V4\0www.tubedepot.com NOS-5687\0
THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE\0\0

6-SOCKETS:
FOR NOW CODES CORRESPOND\0
4 x Noval Ceramic PCB 18mm V1,V2,V3,V4\0
www.tubedepot.com SK-9PINPC2
\0www.tube-town.net sk-9-18-PCB\0

3-
CAPACITORS
WHAT VOLTAGE?
(supplyers change code frequently then better know voltage about)
-------
4-
DIODES
code 1N4148\0
ma ?? 100? 150? 350? 500?
(supplyers change code frequently then better know voltage about)
------
to be continued


THANKS IN ADVANCE
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 10, 2008, 04:38:11 AM
HI
SOMEONE HAVE INFO ABOUT PM 660 PARTS BOM LIST
WITH COMPLETE TECH SPECS TO COMPARE WITH THIS??????

(data here down are for compary no more confirmed)
-------------------
1)
ALL RESISTORS MUST BE 250-350-700....VOLTS???

2)
TRIMPOT - 5K BY MOUSER CODE 3296Y-1-502LF \0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=T7l%2fPuJnbcQ857qUhxMrRA%3d%3d\0\0
Manufacturer: Bourns
\0Product Category: Trimpots - Multi Turn \0
Resistance: 5 K Ohms \0Tolerance: 10 % \0
Power Rating: 1/2 W \0
Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 150 C \0
Dimensions: 9.53 mm W x 9.53 mm L
\0Product: Trimpots \0
Termination Style: Radial\0\0
OK WITH ABOVE SPECS?\0

3) CAPACITORS
1 x 220n WIMA MKS2 C3 \0MOUSER CODE - MKS2-.022/63/10\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYlk%252baz8u5C7Kw%3d%3d\0\0
Manufacturer: WIMA \0
Product Category: Polyester Film Capacitors \0
RoHS: Details \0
Capacitance: 0.022 uF \0
Tolerance: 10 % \0
Voltage Rating: 63 Volts \0
Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 100 C \0
Termination Style: Radial \0
Dimensions: 2.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 6.5 mm H \0
Product: Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors
\0Lead Spacing: 5 mm\0\0
-

1 x 15 WIMA MKS2 C1\0MOUSER CODE - MKS2-1.5/63/5\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYked8ouHkpvPA%3d%3d\0\0
Manufacturer: WIMA \0
Product Category: Polyester Film Capacitors
\0RoHS: Details \0
Capacitance: 1.5 uF
\0Tolerance: 5 % \0
Voltage Rating: 63 Volts \0
Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 100 C
\0Termination Style: Radial
\0Dimensions: 5.5 mm W x 7.2 mm L x 11.5 mm H \0
Product: Metallized Polyester Film Capacitors \0
Lead Spacing: 5 mm\0
-
\02 x 10 WIMA MKP4 C2,C4\0MOUSER CODE - MKP4-10/250/10\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=Vi0JKjFBtYn4RFg1reqifQ%3d%3d\0
Manufacturer: WIMA
\0Product Category: Polypropylene Capacitors \0
RoHS: Details \0
Capacitance: 10 uF
\0Tolerance: 10 %
\0Voltage Rating: 250 Volts
\0Operating Temperature Range: - 55 C to + 100 C \0
Termination Style: Radial
\0Dimensions: 19 mm W x 41.5 mm L x 32 mm H
\0Product: Metallized Polypropylene Capacitors \0
Lead Spacing: 37.5 mm\0
-
4)DIODES
4 x 1N4148 D1,D2,D3,D4 \0MOUSER CODE -78-1N4148\0http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=TNTIDjy6APqozHdyHHFUGA%3d%3d\0\0
Product Category: Diodes (RF, Signal, Switching, Power)
\0RoHS: Details \0
Configuration: Single \0
Termination Style: Through Hole \0
Package / Case: DO-35
\0Reverse Voltage: 100 V \0
Forward Voltage: 1 V @ 0.01 A \0
Forward Continuous Current: 0.15 A
\0Max Surge Current: 2 A
\0Reverse Current IR: 0.025 uA \0
Recovery Time: 8 ns \0
Packaging: Reel \0
Product: Switching Diodes \0
PartsPerReel: 10000\0
-
5-TUBES:
www.tubedepot.com\0
DON'T HAVE NOS STOCK WITH THIS CODES\0
2 x 6BC8 V1,V2\0www.tubedepot.com NOS-6BC8\0

THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE\0\0
2 x 5687 V3,V4\0www.tubedepot.com NOS-5687\0
THEY OFFER REPLACEMENT WITH THIS CODE\0\0

6-SOCKETS:
FOR NOW CODES CORRESPOND\0
4 x Noval Ceramic PCB 18mm V1,V2,V3,V4\0
www.tubedepot.com SK-9PINPC2
\0www.tube-town.net sk-9-18-PCB\0

3-
CAPACITORS
WHAT VOLTAGE?
(supplyers change code frequently then better know voltage about)
-------
4-
DIODES
code 1N4148\0
ma ?? 100? 150? 350? 500?
(supplyers change code frequently then better know voltage about)
------
to be continued


THANKS IN ADVANCE
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on October 10, 2008, 05:23:49 AM
SIXTYNINER, could you please stop doing that and make some kind of pdf or text file instead.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Sorr on October 10, 2008, 05:24:44 AM
And the transistors?
Do we need to use a IRF840 for Q4 if using the PSU PCB for stereo?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 10, 2008, 06:14:44 AM
AS SIGNED. "TO BE CONTINUED"

ANY TRIBUTE ABOUT IS WELLCOME

7-
TRANSISTORS:
MOUSER CODE -610-2N61071 x SK104-25.4 Q1
Manufacturer:    Central Semiconductor    
Product Category:    Bipolar Transistors    
RoHS:     Details    
Transistor Polarity:    PNP    
Package / Case:    TO-220    
Configuration:    Single    
Maximum Operating Frequency:    10 MHz (Min)    
Collector- Emitter Voltage VCEO Max:    70 V    
Emitter- Base Voltage VEBO:    5 V    
Maximum DC Collector Current:    7 A    
Power Dissipation:    40000 mW    
DC Current Gain hFE Min:    30 @ 1A @ 4V    
Product:    Bipolar Small Signal & Power    
Packaging:    Box    
Continuous Collector Current:    0.45 A    
Maximum Operating Temperature:    150 C    
Minimum Operating Temperature:    - 65 C

8-HEATSINKS:
1 x SK104-25.4 Q1
www.reichelt.de
CODE V PR32/25,4V PR32/25,4 :: Spezial-Kühlkörper, 25,4x35,0x12,7mm, 14K/Whttp://www.reichelt.de/?;ACTION=3;LA=4;GROUP=C81;GROUPID=3379;ARTICLE=35374;START=0;SORT=preis;OFFSET=16;[email protected]
9-AUDIO TRANSFORMER:
CODES CORRESPOND FOR NOW
2 x 600:10Kwww.edcorusa.com XSM600/10K
2 x 10K:600www.edcorusa.com XSM10K/600

10-CONTROLS:
NEED A BIT MORE TECH SPEC
2 x Rotary Swich, shorting, 2 x24pos
GAIN, THRESHOLDResistance: 15K (INPUT, COMPRESSION)
1 x Potentiometer or Rotary Switch ATTACKRestistance: 10K (TIME CONSTANT)
1 x 5K Trimmer METER TRIM
1 x VU Meter GAIN REDUCTION

ANY TRIBUTE WELLCOME

SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT PARTS:

ROTARY SWITCHES-SHORT OR NOT?

VU METER WHAT? -SPECS ABOUT?
OK NIF SIFAM VU METER ? BETTER PPM?

RESISTORS 110-250-400-500-700 VOLTS???

CAPACITORS AUDIO WIMA
OK 63 VOLTS FOR ALL???

CAPACITORS SPECS FOR PSU?????

.........ALL OTHER PARTS SPECS OK AS POSTED???

ANY SERIOUS TRIBUTE ABOUT
GIVE MORE
SERIOUSNESS
TO THIS FORUM!!!

THANKS TO ALL MEMBERS IN ADVANCE
6TNR
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 10, 2008, 06:29:21 AM
Quote
Hell with buying a bunch of 50W Resistors.... buy yourself one of these 50W suckers and then do the test/measurements to buy the right value. You can use it with for all your future projects.....
(http://idisk.mac.com/cannikin-Public/photo.jpg)


yeah I was thinking of one of those too. as they are ceramic, they would survive in a stereo version ? or is a fixed value resistor a better solution for permanent use ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 10, 2008, 06:31:16 AM
Sixtyniner, please read the partslists in the first post, and read the whole topic. no need for this spamming, so please stop it.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 10, 2008, 06:40:44 AM
HI
FIRST MY POST ARE NOT SPAM!!!
OTHER GUYS NEED SAME INFO
HERE NOBODY POST NOTHING ABOUT.

I READ IT AND READ IT AND RE-READ IT
BOM LIST PUBLISHED
1-SUPPLYERS CHANGE CODES OF PARTS
BUT IF BOM LIST INCLUDE NECESSARY INFOS (NOT AS PUBLISHED)
IS SIMPLE FIND PART REPLACEMENT

MANY ESSENTIALS TECH SPECS ARE ABSENTS
I'M NOT AN ELECTRONIC ENGINEER
BUT I WORK WITH ELECTRONICS FROM 10 YEARS

THE CIRCUIT IS TUBES,
NO POSSIBLE " TRY AND ERROR" AS IN "MIKROSOFT" MANUALS
400 VOLTS KILL PERSONS!
THEN ME AND MANY OTHERS
 MUST TO BE SHURE
ABOUT THE SPECS OF PARTS

DO YOU UNDERSTAND OR NOT?

NOTHING PERSONAL
THANKS
6TNR
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 10, 2008, 06:43:41 AM
please: unlock your caps - lock
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on October 10, 2008, 06:56:27 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]please: unlock your caps - lock


I think he's doing it on purpose... I just got 3 PM's from him YELLING AT ME!

WTF is it with this guy?

69er - Here's the parts list AGAIN:
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/PSU660_rev02-PartsList.pdf

READ the thread to fill in the blanks & ask ONE question at a time to fill in what you feel is missing... SIMPLE!

Hey Volker,
Maybe it's time to update the Parts list with some of the new or updated info so some of the same questions don't swamp the thread... just a though.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on October 10, 2008, 07:12:06 AM
superthanks
i have it and read it !
is the same from this project "take off"...
see at resistor
where voltage about?
i read it 30 pages of this pm 660 thread
looking for  further infos , before ask and re ask
about parts
but apart some good
edcor trafos,
rotary swithes ,tubes, and psu trafo
no other info
found
thanks the same
have a nice day
6tnr
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 10, 2008, 07:16:14 AM
again about the heater resistor, I am thinking of a power rheostat. what value should I buy ? the BOM says something with 0,3 ohm to 1,5 ohm, so a 10 ohm should be ok ?


I am thinking of mounting it to the back panel, without knob and / or some kind of locking mechanism...



sixty: take a look in the black market section on this board. if you are fast, radiance still has four (yes you will need all four) switches. the power trafo and edcor audio trafo's are also in that section.

the tubes can be easily found on the internet, most other components can be found at Conrad fo instance.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on October 10, 2008, 07:23:00 AM
anyone with a working unit yet?
mine is compresing and sounding fine - but there is a dip in the high frequency....i measured -3 db at 9Kh...since we all use the edcor iron-can someone do a measurment and confirm?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 10, 2008, 07:29:58 AM
Quote from: "khstudio"
Maybe it's time to update the Parts list with some of the new or updated info so some of the same questions don't swamp the thread

feel free to to this. personally I don't have the time right now to follow or correct order codes, and the parts theirself haven't changed.
haven't seen a project here with full order codes for any possible supplier anyway.

Quote from: "SIXTYNINER"
see at resistor
where voltage about?

in my parts list there is stated: "HALF WATT METAL FILM RESISTORS"
(I used 1/4W with no problems)
in the PSU there are two "2 WATT METAL FILM RESISTORS"

Quote from: "elektrovolt"
I am thinking of a power rheostat. what value should I buy ? the BOM says something with 0,3 ohm to 1,5 ohm, so a 10 ohm should be ok ?

sure, but anything smaller (5 ohm, 2 ohm) would be better
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 10, 2008, 07:31:27 AM
Quote
again about the heater resistor, I am thinking of a power rheostat. what value should I buy ? the BOM says something with 0,3 ohm to 1,5 ohm, so a 10 ohm should be ok ?

To be honest I will go with regulated supply for heaters because it saves the tube life. But, since this should be under 660 pimp thread I will not going into details about  :wink:  Rheostat should allow you to determine right resistor value and later with parallel combination of few fixed values you will save the pain with ordering bunch of them. Rheostat you buy will be better to stay for some future projects as "lab device" since it's possible to change the value during the time ... heh it's"mechanical thing"  :grin:
And yes, since resistors will be hot it's good idea to mount them on some heater to keep exact value  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 10, 2008, 07:32:40 AM
Quote from: "mich"
mine is compresing and sounding fine

congrats - where are the pictures :thumb:  :grin:  :green:

Quote from: "mich"
- but there is a dip in the high frequency....i measured -3 db at 9Kh...since we all use the edcor iron-can someone do a measurment and confirm?

mhm, I wouldn't call this normal compared to mine.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 10, 2008, 07:37:29 AM
smaller values , indeed. but I could only find 10 ohm as the smallest.

Moby, yes I know, that is why I am thinking of some locking thing and mounting it in the back. no knob, loctite, superglue... only thing is, that I hope it would dissipate enough of it's heat to the case. but a 60 watt should do the trick
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on October 10, 2008, 08:13:05 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "khstudio"
Maybe it's time to update the Parts list with some of the new or updated info so some of the same questions don't swamp the thread

feel free to to this. personally I don't have the time right now to follow or correct order codes, and the parts theirself haven't changed.
haven't seen a project here with full order codes for any possible supplier anyway.


I don't have time either.

But I can say this... I have ALL my parts & found them using the Parts list posted, reading the thread & asking a few questions.  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on October 10, 2008, 08:24:58 AM
It's hard for me to imagine spending significant time theorizing over the exact value of R15, versus buying an assortment and measuring the results in your unit.  My time is worth much more than the $3 x 5 (or whatever) I might spend trying a selection in this $900 beast we're building.  Wiring in a rheostat permanently doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea either; we're not on battery power with a need for constant adjustment.  An internally mounted adjustable tap resistor makes more sense.  The Ohmite adjustable tap 1 ohm 50W is $14.20 at Mouser.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on October 10, 2008, 04:53:58 PM
Where are you guys getting your tubes for these?

Thanks,
Sig
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on October 10, 2008, 05:50:46 PM
www.tubesandmore.com  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: seavote on October 10, 2008, 08:57:13 PM
sorry to ask the same question again but i think it got lost in all the poating as of late
as per the heater supply. is there a reason why an unregulated heater supply is preferred in this application? can we use a regulated supply or is it not practical in this circuit? heat an issue???
sorry if its obvious i'm teaching myself electronics. im only 2 years into this/thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Sorr on October 10, 2008, 09:24:18 PM
Seavote,

You could use a regulated heater supply.
At 2.6A per channel, you could use one LM338 per channel.
Make sure they are mounted on a large heatsink with mica insulators and thermal grease.
If its more than 6 inches away from the input filter cap, you need to use an input bypass cap.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on October 10, 2008, 09:28:27 PM
Quote from: "seavote"
as per the heater supply. is there a reason why an unregulated heater supply is preferred in this application?

This has been discussed a few times in this thread; have a look at the posts by [silent:arts] and emrr on page 15 (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=heater&start=213).

JDB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: CJ on October 10, 2008, 11:11:07 PM
There are a ton of threads on heater stuff, but I do not know where they are.

I posted about 6 different heater supplies from VTV a while back.

There is a startup sequence in the original 670 that might be worth considering:

1) 6386 Tubes get heater current - GZ34 gets heater current
2)6386 heaters now pretty warm - GZ34 is still a few seconds out
3)6CA7/EL34 pass tube heater is now hot
4)GZ34 now on, plate current flows to OC3 Regulator via EL34
5)OC3 conducts after a few seconds
6)B+ now on banks of 6386.

Since the plate voltage is so high, the tubes take a beating during startup if you do not pre bake.

I was told by the 670 guy at AES that the original 6386 did not last that long, as they are being run close to their max rating.

But worry not, 6386 on the way!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 11, 2008, 07:09:42 AM
Thanks CJ. The stereo PM 660 will need 5A at 6.3V . (4x 5687 + 4x6BC8) , so for regulated heater supply (what I prefer because saving tubes life) we need some "stronger" PSU.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on October 11, 2008, 08:40:53 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
regulated heater supply (what I prefer because saving tubes life)


Tube doesn't care if it's getting filament voltage somewhere in the ballpark, so a perfect 6.3V regulation won't make your tubes last any longer.

Some say heater voltages affect sound, but I personally think the design is broken if it can't handle slight deviations. Remember fairchild was designed at the time when 10-20% or something equally ridiculous was the normal deviation for all parts so that was taken care of in the circuit. AFAIK any good tube design still does this, including the poorman.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on October 11, 2008, 11:52:45 AM
i wrote a nice little post and erased it.   :razz:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on October 11, 2008, 12:38:43 PM
o,k , back to the frequency response thing...i measured the Edcor (xsm600/10k) alone - without any termination, and i get the same roll off that starts at about 2K and is -3 db at around 10K and -6db at around 16K....
the test was made using RTA and like i said, no termination - just from the soundcard output (hot & cold) into the primarys and secondries back to the soundcard input.
cant think what else is causing this...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 11, 2008, 12:47:10 PM
mich, I will measure some Edcors tomorrow to compare
what is the input impedance of your soundcard ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on October 11, 2008, 01:22:40 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
i wrote a nice little post and erased it.   :razz:

I (http://clubpenguinexpertshq.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/i-made-you-a-cookie-but-i-eated-it.jpg) think (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/wuterml0n.jpg) you (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/funny-pictures-groundhog-ate-flower.jpg) forgot (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/eastregg.jpg) the (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/funny-pictures-fat-cat-ate-book.jpg) picture (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/ihadahoomun128393624417968750.jpg) link (http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/3/5/ifoundedyoua128492346723242500.jpg).

HTH,

JDB.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on October 11, 2008, 01:23:37 PM
Quote
what is the input impedance of your soundcard ?



 


its an M-audio Delta 1010 -spec's sheet says 10K minimum..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on October 11, 2008, 01:30:25 PM
There seems to be a trend of this sort of roll-off in builds now and then, mainly LA-2A builds.  Can't say I've noticed anyone trying another Edcor in the search for a fix.  

Quality control: everyone should probably take the time to test all of their Edcors before using in any project.    There are enough reports of mis-wired and open connections as shipped to warrant user scrutiny.   Same would surely hold true for other issues.  I know I couldn't wind transformers at that price and hope to offer real QC; only good customer service for problems as received.  Edcor has been great about shipping out replacements in problem cases I've had.    Not a 'thumbs down' comment at all, just a reality check on the real value of $10.    

Maybe altogether unrelated to your problem; could be your card doesn't have enough drive for the load, but I doubt that.  

Was I going to say something about filament supply earlier?  No, I already said it.    :razz:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: CJ on October 11, 2008, 02:12:43 PM
Saw some E 204 D's on evil bay for cheap, really a nice coil.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on October 11, 2008, 03:09:45 PM
Quote from: "Kingston"
Quote from: "Moby"
regulated heater supply (what I prefer because saving tubes life)


Tube doesn't care if it's getting filament voltage somewhere in the ballpark, so a perfect 6.3V regulation won't make your tubes last any longer.

Some say heater voltages affect sound, but I personally think the design is broken if it can't handle slight deviations. Remember fairchild was designed at the time when 10-20% or something equally ridiculous was the normal deviation for all parts so that was taken care of in the circuit. AFAIK any good tube design still does this, including the poorman.


Just to back up Kingston...
I built a 1-Bottle Pre & the filaments were running a little over = about 6.5 - 6.7. Something didn't sound right & I also could he a slight crackling or fizzing sound, so I added a 1ohm resister to the heaters & it dropped to about 6v (or so) & the crackling & fizzing sound went away & the pre sounded a lot better... not just because of the (now gone) extra noises.

Keep in mind this was a "Mic Pre", not a line level unit like the PM670, so it MAY have been more sensitive to it but thought I'd share.

This was my first experience with hearing how the heater voltages can effect the sound & performance.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on October 11, 2008, 03:12:26 PM
i've got a pair of huge Freed's that could do the job - but only a pair won't save me.....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 12, 2008, 07:47:48 AM
Huh, that Edcor issue can be a real problem. I'm still waiting for my transformers and it will be nice to know is that "issue" or something else. It will be great if someone can measure Edcors, but with proper termination. It's great to know that Edcor will accept transformers back but sending them and accepting back will cost . I don't want to judge before we know the facts but I will be dashed if Edcor has no validation process  :cool:
Quote
Tube doesn't care if it's getting filament voltage somewhere in the ballpark, so a perfect 6.3V regulation won't make your tubes last any longer.

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Slow turn-on and stable voltage save the filament life and that's a fact. I just share experience of the people older than Tubes we use  :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on October 12, 2008, 08:11:17 AM
Quote
It will be great if someone can measure Edcors, but with proper termination.


- on the 600R side i dont think you need any termination - just as in real life where you would insert or patch the comp directly from a line out.
- on the 10K side i think you need to "emulate" the circuit's load - 30K?...dont know..
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 12, 2008, 08:32:46 AM
Google can help but here's the one link . Not a big deal with termination but transformers like to see some termination for proper frequency response. :wink:
http://www.shine7.com/audio/LL1545a.htm
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 12, 2008, 08:59:30 AM
Here is a picture of measuring a (naked) Edcor 600/10K
[Z out 15 Ohm, Z in 100K Ohm]:

(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/IMG_5212.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on October 12, 2008, 12:30:50 PM
Making progress......


(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/studiodave/fairchild.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 12, 2008, 01:20:50 PM
Quote from: "dspruill"
Making progress......

 :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
and with active ventilation :cool:  :cool:  :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on October 12, 2008, 07:23:22 PM
A question, where is a good place to get the 12 volts for the bypass relays?
Is that what the tap next to the +/- 17volts output is for? Can I use this and drop the voltage with a resistor?

Thanks
David
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on October 12, 2008, 10:40:55 PM
Anyone who is using the Elma switches:

any tricks for soldering the resistors on Position 0 and position 12?  The solder tab is right behind the screw holding the switch together.

also position 23 is zero value... right?

Building an attenuator is something I have never done before.

 :?: picture will tell me everything if you got one   :!:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 13, 2008, 03:10:17 AM
Quote from: "dspruill"
where is a good place to get the 12 volts for the bypass relays? Is that what the tap next to the +/- 17volts output is for? Can I use this and drop the voltage with a resistor?

use the trimpot RV1 to adjust the +17volts to +12V

Quote from: "cannikin"
any tricks for soldering the resistors on Position 0 and position 12? The solder tab is right behind the screw holding the switch together

have a look at the wiring guide (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PoorMan-WiringGuide.pdf) to get an idea.
can post a photo of mine tonight.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on October 13, 2008, 09:28:01 AM
Hi,

Is that needed to provide mica isolation between hi voltage regulators and heatsinks ?

Thanks
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on October 15, 2008, 05:23:23 AM
Hey Guys,

I started building my Poorman and had hit a snag... the BOM states the resistors for the most part are 1/2 Watt's... problem is I can't find any half watt's that fit the board footprint (we are kind of limited to what we can get here in Africa) it seems the board size is for what I can get here are 1/4W's, the half watters are double the size and don't fit the board.

I'm sure that the 1/2 Watt's were chosen for a reason, so I'm guessing 1/4W's are a no go?

And if they are not, anyone know if RS has what is needed or anyone willing to order me the resistors and I'll cover your costs?

Much appreciated!

Matt
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on October 15, 2008, 05:25:48 AM
Quote from: "Gachet"
Hi,

Is that needed to provide mica isolation between hi voltage regulators and heatsinks ?

Thanks


Um, unless the heatsinks touch EACH other or the chassis, then no isolaters are not needed. The idea of using the isolator is to make sure it doesn't short... if the reg is not touching anything i.e via touching heatsinks or chassis, it can't short  :thumb:

Cheers

Matt
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 15, 2008, 05:35:56 AM
Matt,
I used 1/4W resistors in my Poor Man without any problems.
(the footprint is a standard 0207, the 1/2Ws I have fit in there nicely?)

Gachet, yes, please mount the regulators isolated to the heatsinks.
not for elcetrical (the heatsinks are not grounded or connected to anything), but for safety reasons.
it is too dangerous to touch the heatsinks accidently
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 15, 2008, 05:44:00 AM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Anyone who is using the Elma switches:
any tricks for soldering the resistors on Position 0 and position 12?  The solder tab is right behind the screw holding the switch together.
also position 23 is zero value... right?

 :?: picture will tell me everything if you got one   :!:


(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/elma.jpg)
these are stopped to 21 positions
for the inner deck just unscrew the outer one
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on October 15, 2008, 05:46:07 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]Matt,
I used 1/4W resistors in my Poor Man without any problems.
(the footprint is a standard 0207, the 1/2Ws I have fit in there nicely?)

Gachet, yes, please mount the regulators isolated to the heatsinks.
not for elcetrical (the heatsinks are not grounded or connected to anything), but for safety reasons.
it is too dangerous to touch the heatsinks accidently



Thanks Volker,

Yeah it seems my local shops don't have METAL FILM in 1/4W, and what they said were 1/2W's are in fact 1W... go figure.... good to know that the 1/4W's are working out. I'll prob go in that direction unless I can find 1/2W's easily.

RE the isolators... safety who cares about safety!!!  :shock:

As I shared, as long as the heatsinks DON'T touch you are fine... but if they touch YOU... well lets just say it won't be pretty... for the cost of a few cents the safety is worth it...

Cheers

Matt
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 15, 2008, 05:50:57 AM
we want you to be a Poor Man, not a Dead Man  :grin:
(cool name for the next project) :green:  :green:  :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on October 15, 2008, 06:28:19 AM
Quote from: "cannikin"
Anyone who is using the Elma switches:

also position 23 is zero value... right?



I have the same question, I'm assuming that for the input gain the first position (knob al the way to the left) should be 15K and all the way to the right 0R?

Same for the treshold?

Thanks in advance!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on October 15, 2008, 11:28:31 AM
thanks Volker :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on October 15, 2008, 11:29:21 AM
I used a fair number of Dale 1/2W on my audio boards which requires some interesting lead bending.  They will fit, just not nicely.  There are a few spots you really have to watch for shorting against the neighbors.  An increase in resistor lead spacing size would be my #1 alteration on any re-orders.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 15, 2008, 11:46:14 AM
for the large diode in the psu I had to do some modifications too, because the holes were to small.

how do I isolate the heatsinks from the regulators ? the bolt and nut are conducting too...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on October 15, 2008, 02:19:29 PM
I cant find any 1n4747 diodes nearby, or the 1n4764. Can i just get regular 1.3w  zenerdiodes @ 20v and 100v and substitute? Or do i need these exakt diodes?

Im thinking of this type:
http://www.banzaieffects.com/1-3W-c-474-p-2.html

Thanks!
/J
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on October 15, 2008, 05:40:05 PM
Quote
how do I isolate the heatsinks from the regulators ? the bolt and nut are conducting too...


There are some kind of plastic bolt and nut just made for that...
I found some in a local electronic shop.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 15, 2008, 06:00:23 PM
Quote from: "emrr"
An increase in resistor lead spacing size would be my #1 alteration on any re-orders.

what are the dimensions of those Dale 1/2W resistors ?
(not for the Poor Man, but good to no for future projects)

Quote from: "elektrovolt"
for the large diode in the psu I had to do some modifications too, because the holes were to small

which one is "the large" diode ?
mine are all the same size :?

Quote from: "Jonkan"
cant find any 1n4747 diodes nearby, or the 1n4764. Can i just get regular 1.3w zenerdiodes @ 20v and 100v and substitute?

yes, you can. has been answered before I think ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 15, 2008, 06:57:39 PM
I mean the 100v diode
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 15, 2008, 08:16:37 PM
Quote
cant find any 1n4747 diodes nearby, or the 1n4764. Can i just get regular 1.3w zenerdiodes @ 20v and 100v and substitute?

Any zener rated 1.3W or more will work (if fits)
for example
1n4747=ZY20
1n4764=ZY100
 :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on October 16, 2008, 12:17:33 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "emrr"
An increase in resistor lead spacing size would be my #1 alteration on any re-orders.

what are the dimensions of those Dale 1/2W resistors ?
(not for the Poor Man, but good to no for future projects)


RN65D's on this page:


http://www.mouser.com/catalog/635/631.pdf
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: CJ on October 16, 2008, 03:50:04 AM
Has anybody tried Schotky diodes to rectify the DC control voltage?

We were talkin this up at AES with the Fairchild guy.
He might be using them in the new 670, I forgot.

The original diodes were a pain to source.
In fact, that is one of the few parts that I know nothing about.
I asked Rein about them, but he could not remember.
Diodes were changing quickly back then, there were many more choices by the time the 670 came out, as opposed to the 660.
Germanium?
I do not know.
Nothing on any of the schematics I have seen.
Maybe Alexandervich might know.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 16, 2008, 06:47:40 AM
Quote
Has anybody tried Schotky diodes to rectify the DC control voltage?

That's an interesting question, indeed. 1N4148 is doing the job but it must be that recovery or leakage factor is important in this design. What about FDH333 or similar type (well, not shotky but it's used in 1176)  :?:
Can somebody dig about diodes in other clone units?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on October 17, 2008, 02:23:48 PM
Anyone?  :?


Quote from: "Grooveteer"
Quote from: "cannikin"
Anyone who is using the Elma switches:

also position 23 is zero value... right?



I have the same question, I'm assuming that for the input gain the first position (knob al the way to the left) should be 15K and all the way to the right 0R?

Same for the treshold?

Thanks in advance!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on October 17, 2008, 02:32:32 PM
Hey Goovester,

take a look at Volkers excel for calculating the resistor for 15K attenuator.
It actually tells you which resistor to connect to what position.  Thats what I used.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on October 17, 2008, 02:46:15 PM
I had the Excel file right in front of me when I was typing  :wink:

I'm just not sure if I'm understanding it correctly. To me it looks like turning the knob from left left to right (clockwise) is moving from from pin 3 on the schematic to pin 1.  Decreasing the resistance like an attenuator.  And it looks like the treshold is the same, but I'd like to be 100% sure before I start soldering.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on October 17, 2008, 03:18:39 PM
Hi,
hope this helps you ...

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/uraltone_rotary_switch.JPG)
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on October 17, 2008, 03:23:34 PM
thats awesome thank you.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on October 17, 2008, 03:50:21 PM
Quote from: "Jonkan"
I cant find any 1n4747 diodes nearby, or the 1n4764.
/J


I ordered @ Farnell :
1N4747----1467599
1N4764----9398511

Can someone confirm these one are good?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on October 17, 2008, 03:59:11 PM
Thanks Bernd!!   :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on October 19, 2008, 02:28:51 PM
In selecting the fuse for the Poorman should I just add up the total current draw of the transformer and go with that, or am I mistaken?

Thanks,
David
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on October 19, 2008, 03:51:04 PM
OK, I tried power up. No tubes installed. Voltages looked ok, bridge rectifier got HOT, then transformer started to smell and get very warm. Bam! fuse blew. Now I have no resistance between the primary and secondaries. Blown transformer?
I am using the Edcor these are my connections:

Primary: blk/grn    blk-white/ grn-white

15 volt -centertap-15 volt from transformer connected to AC in on board.
250 AC from transformer connected to 250 in on board
9 volt AC from transformer connected to AC in on bridge rectifier
DC out of rectifier connected to "from rectifier" on board
1 ohm 50 watt resistor connected off board fastened to chassis.

I don't see any blatant mistakes but there must be one!
Help!

David
Title: wow
Post by: shabtek on October 19, 2008, 04:21:05 PM
0 ohms 'tween primary and secondary?
thats not good.
try disconnecting all power trans leads and 'ohm them out' --that is, determine what the heads and tails (and center tap) of each winding is. and if the leads are'nt just colored wrong.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on October 19, 2008, 05:48:40 PM
Disconnected transformer, this is what I got...

Primary to 15volt leg           1.5 ohm
primary to 15 volt centertap 1.5ohm
primary to 2nd 15 volt leg    1.5 0hm
primary to 250 leg                infinity
primary to 2nd 250 leg          infinity
primary to 9 volt leg            1 ohm
primary to 2nd 9 volt leg      1 ohm

hope this sheds some light.....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 20, 2008, 07:06:24 AM
Quote from: "CJ"
Has anybody tried Schotky diodes to rectify the DC control voltage?

We were talkin this up at AES with the Fairchild guy.
He might be using them in the new 670, I forgot.

The original diodes were a pain to source.
In fact, that is one of the few parts that I know nothing about.
I asked Rein about them, but he could not remember.
Diodes were changing quickly back then, there were many more choices by the time the 670 came out, as opposed to the 660.
Germanium?
I do not know.
Nothing on any of the schematics I have seen.
Maybe Alexandervich might know.

Thanks Volker for designing the diode part of pcb like this  :idea:  You did perfect job for dropping DIL Socket 8-Pin  :grin:  So, I prepared for the possible  change or experimenting. Of course first set of diodes are 1n4148 as stated but I will try some Shotky's or whatever later...  :green:
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/pm660-diodes.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on October 20, 2008, 09:03:50 AM
Found my screw up. Bridge rectifier was connected incorrectly. I'll be calling Edcor today!

Its only money......

David
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on October 20, 2008, 11:02:17 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
You did perfect job for dropping DIL Socket 8-Pin  :grin:  So, I prepared for the possible  change or experimenting. Of course first set of diodes are 1n4148 as stated but I will try some Shotky's or whatever later...  :green:

 :cool: cool - a Fairchild with Plug-Ins :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 20, 2008, 11:45:58 AM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]
Quote from: "Moby"
You did perfect job for dropping DIL Socket 8-Pin  :grin:  So, I prepared for the possible  change or experimenting. Of course first set of diodes are 1n4148 as stated but I will try some Shotky's or whatever later...  :green:

 :cool: cool - a Fairchild with Plug-Ins :green:

Plug'n play ;-) yes, I will continiue that under http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274&start=666 Now it's time to finish the beast  :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: CJ on October 21, 2008, 05:51:41 AM
Cool idea on the socket.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 21, 2008, 08:50:40 AM
Quote from: "CJ"
Cool idea on the socket.

Thanks mate :green: Now , give some idea about possible diodes to experiment with....  :cool:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mikeyB on October 22, 2008, 10:22:43 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
Quote from: "CJ"
Cool idea on the socket.

Thanks mate :green: Now , give some idea about possible diodes to experiment with....  :cool:


Possibly try "Geranium"  :razz: diodes - is it OA81 OA91?
What about diodes used in other compessor bridge ccts like the neve stuff - I think they were something like BAT42 or BAW62  - something like that - check on the 33609 build thread :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 22, 2008, 01:09:23 PM
thanks, just keep comming with ideas, right after I finish my units I will start with experimenting and I will do the samples for every diode competitor. So, we are be able to judge together about :)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on October 22, 2008, 06:39:46 PM
what would be the effect of placing different diodes ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on October 22, 2008, 07:21:25 PM
Quote from: "elektrovolt"
what would be the effect of placing different diodes ?

I'm not sure about but I'm curious. I doubt that it will be any difference but ears can say something else. 1n4148 are pretty fast and maybe some slower (older) ones can do the difference....
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: waldorfcave on November 01, 2008, 01:13:20 PM
Hi Folks,

finally i´m ready. Tata :grin:
My PSU Trafo have to go outside the box. With open case i have no hum.
With closed case i have hum @ 88db fs. Strange isn´t it :?:
But i can live with such s/n ratio.
Muchos Gracias, to Volker, Analag and Bernd for such a great project...
I love you all....Lars
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fstotal.jpg)
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fslinks.jpg)
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fsrechts.jpg)
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fsrohre.jpg)
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fsrorhre2.jpg)
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fsinnen.jpg)
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fs.jpg)
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on November 01, 2008, 01:44:12 PM
Lars,

KILLER!  :thumb:

What resistor Value did you end up with  for the Heaters/Filaments ?
...using what Power Transformer?

Also... how does it sound... do you like it?

Just curious to here how different guys like the unit... there's not too many built yet so feedback is cool.

I Haven't laid out my front panel & love yours... looks like bernbrue's.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: waldorfcave on November 01, 2008, 02:02:48 PM
Quote
What resistor Value did you end up with for the Heaters/Filaments ?

0,5R  for 6 volts, on monday i will try 0,47r....psu is from rondo.

Quote
Also... how does it sound... do you like it?

I only did a quick test, i can tell more later. I do not know if i like it.
it sounds diffrerent, then my other compressors.

Quote
I Haven't laid out my front panel & love yours... looks like bernbrue's.

Its Bernds. :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 01, 2008, 03:44:52 PM
:shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:  :shock:
Lars, fast as always :wink:
great work :thumb:
I'm sure you will like it.
but I think you need some more rackspace ...
too much successful DIY :green:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 01, 2008, 04:09:29 PM
Lars, it's looking amazing. Congratulations  :guinness:  Please do some listening tests and tell us about sound... As always, it will be great to hear some clips :wink:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 02, 2008, 03:31:23 AM
Wow, nice one Lars. :thumb:
I hope I'll find a few days off to work on my Pm670...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on November 02, 2008, 05:05:32 AM
:thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on November 02, 2008, 09:43:28 AM
Hi Lars,
I can read between the lines, that you are very proud of your new build. You´ll have a lot of pleasure with this compressor, that´s for shure. The pilot lamp is the biggest one I´ve ever seen. The colour layout is very aesthetic. Ahmmm, yes, frontpanel layout looks familiar to me  :wink:  :grin:  :grin:  :grin:
regards
Bernd
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: babyhead on November 02, 2008, 12:11:23 PM
I've just ordered the new White Xmas pm-670 boards and I am starting to look for parts.

Could a 15k dual log pot work for the input and threshold?

If there is enough interest, PEC could make a HQ carbon for much less than the switch alone.

The tracking couldn't be that far from a Daven with 10% resistors... but something here might require tighter tracking.

Just putting it out there-

Very nice build, BTW.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 02, 2008, 12:21:08 PM
Quote from: "babyhead"
Could a 15k dual log pot work for the input and threshold?

15k dual log pots will work, but the switches with selected 1% resistors will do much better.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on November 02, 2008, 01:57:47 PM
As another switch related question:
I was going to use the 4x 24 rotaries from uraltone(as they are out of the 2 deck) but I'm not sure if i can convert the 4 deck to 2 deck switches. I asked the guy at uraltone and he said it might be possible but wasn't 100% sure as he's never done it before.

Does anyone know if this can be done? Or should I just cough up the money for the elmas?
Thanks
Rob
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on November 02, 2008, 02:33:13 PM
Quote from: "RAM"
I was going to use the 4x 24 rotaries from uraltone(as they are out of the 2 deck) but I'm not sure if i can convert the 4 deck to 2 deck switches.
Does anyone know if this can be done?


What do you mean "convert"? Simply don't use two of the decks. If you mean removing the decks, that should be possible for most brands (quite hard to solder if you can't do one deck at a time).
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on November 02, 2008, 03:46:42 PM
I reckoned thats how it would be done alright. Just wanted to make sure I was right. Thanks Kingston!
Rob
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 03, 2008, 10:20:32 PM
Hey Waldorfcave,

How did you do your front panel?  It looks engraved - FPE?  If so, can you share the file please?

Thanks!
Sig
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Linus on November 04, 2008, 09:56:51 AM
Quote from: "Siegfried Meier"
Hey Waldorfcave,

How did you do your front panel?  It looks engraved - FPE?  If so, can you share the file please?

Thanks!
Sig


Yes!  It is beautiful!!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: waldorfcave on November 05, 2008, 07:10:56 AM
Hello,

here is the file:

www.waldorfcave.com/670.zip

acknowledgement to Bernd. :!:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on November 05, 2008, 11:12:01 AM
I am thinking... wouldn't it be nice to have a variable hipass filter on the sidechain input ? maybe someone has already planned this ?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on November 08, 2008, 11:57:22 AM
Hi  everyone

what type of relay do i need to buy, for silent arts rely board

and where could i get this from in the uk


regards

skal1
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 08, 2008, 12:28:19 PM
http://uk.farnell.com/omron-electronic-components/g5v-2-12dc/relay-pcb-dpco-12vdc/dp/9949496?_requestid=313591
or equivalent
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 08, 2008, 04:03:42 PM
Quote from: "[silent:arts
"]Here is a picture of measuring a (naked) Edcor 600/10K
[Z out 15 Ohm, Z in 100K Ohm]:

(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/IMG_5212.jpg)

Volker, I measured my Edcors and I have similar results with 600/10k but I have some terrible measuring with 10k/600. I don't want to post that because I don't have pro measuring system. I used mastering Lynx card at 192khz  :oops:  can you do the same thing you did with 600/10k but this time with 10k/600?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 09, 2008, 07:51:57 AM
Hi Moby,

nothing wrong here:

(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/IMG_5269.jpg)
(Edcor 10K/600, Z out 15 Ohm, Z in 100K Ohm)

check if the windings are connected the right way, there have been some people posting of mistakes (and unconnected windings) ...
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 09, 2008, 08:46:12 AM
Thanks Volker. I will check that.I'm suspicious about my measuring, that's what I asked you to check with Neutrik   :wink: I also tried to measure with analog sig. gen and AC voltmeter (10 mhz banwidth) and it looks much better, but with nasty +9db peak at 60khz. Did somebody tried to add some compensation to tame that?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 10, 2008, 05:19:06 AM
Just a warnings for the beginers if there's some !!!
The two high voltage heatsinks on the psu board are really close. Be carefull when you solder them.
:shock:  DON'T MAKE THEM TOUCH EACH OTHER  :shock:
Try to keep the maximum space between them (at least about 1mm).

Another bump on the heater PSU :
Unregulated heater PSU is a good idea and is currently used but :
- All the tubes used in this project are old (NOS or not).
- If a 5687 heater fails the current will fall. The resistor will not drop enough tension and the heaters will receive about 1 V more (for a PM670 or 2 V for a PM660 )... This will not kill immediately your tubes but they'll get old really fast.
Regulating the heater PSU (like in the D-AOC) is a lot more secure...
I will...

Anyway, my feeling with this project is that it's a really exiting project... My first PM670 is close to be finished (I'm waiting for the LM350T ) and I can't stand to hear it.

Thanks again Analag, [silent:arts], Bernbrue, TonydB and everyone who worked on this project...  :thumb:  :thumb:  :thumb:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 10, 2008, 05:23:58 AM
alway mount the regulators insulated to the heatsinks.
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: edanderson on November 10, 2008, 08:10:45 AM
Quote from: "Moby"
Thanks Volker. I will check that.I'm suspicious about my measuring, that's what I asked you to check with Neutrik   :wink: I also tried to measure with analog sig. gen and AC voltmeter (10 mhz banwidth) and it looks much better, but with nasty +9db peak at 60khz. Did somebody tried to add some compensation to tame that?


for the 600/10k, the input impedance of the PM660 circuit may well be enough to damp that ringing.  same goes for the 10k/600 output- the ~10kohm input of a soundcard, etc may be enough to damp the output.  if not, you can always put a ~600ohm resistor across the secondary.

the in-circuit sweeps of completed units we've seen haven't shown any ringing, so i wouldn't worry too much.

ed
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 10, 2008, 08:41:35 AM
Cool :wink:  I presume that Transformers will work somehow different under the circuit, so let's see a finished unit response.  :thumb: But if ringing is still present that will produce strange coloration  :oops:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: babyhead on November 10, 2008, 03:42:18 PM
Hey Good People-

I picked up some 10uf Wima MKP 10 rated at 160v at the GT sale. Are these compatible for this build? I did not see a voltage rating in the bom or the silkscreen...

Thanks-

 :guinness:
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 10, 2008, 03:49:48 PM
they are
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: babyhead on November 10, 2008, 05:32:44 PM
Score!

Thanks!
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 11, 2008, 08:17:55 AM
Quote
the in-circuit sweeps of completed units we've seen haven't shown any ringing, so i wouldn't worry too much.

Sorry, must be that I missed that. Where is the sweep measuring of the unit?
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 11, 2008, 08:57:58 AM
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=26887&start=166
Title: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 11, 2008, 09:24:43 AM
Thanks  :grin:
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: cannikin on November 15, 2008, 08:29:07 PM
HEY IF any one wants... I have 3 PM660, 2 PSU, 5 Bypass relay PCBs unstuffed that I'm not going to use... I was excited and greedy for this project  ;D  Same price as volker sells them for.  I prefer shipping in US so you'll get them fast, they aren't the groovy white christmas ones but... give me a PM, didn't really want to post in the BM.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 15, 2008, 10:01:10 PM
the rotary switches

you would better want it exponential (or log in potentiometer language).
it took some time to figure this out, but with some help I was able to do an Excell sheet to calculate the resistors for emulating a real log potentiometer.
fill in the desired steps you want: Log Pot to Switch Excell Sheet (http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/PM660/LogPotToSwitch.xls)

you may want it in dB steps (like me). at the end it is a series attenuator.
my prototype has 18dB of gain, thus I will do one dB steps on an Elma, stopped to 23 steps, going from -4dB to +18dB.

Volker, are the steps in the Excel sheet calculated for 1db attenuation per step? If not, can you tell me about?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 18, 2008, 08:10:21 AM
polite bump  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 18, 2008, 12:02:24 PM
Hi Moby,

no, the Excell sheet just converts the log pot curve to a switch.
for 1dB steps you can use any series attenuator spread sheet out there.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 18, 2008, 10:03:34 PM
Thanks. I was thinking about adding correct values around input control. I already soldered 8 double 15k 24 position sw.  :( So, you don't know about db attenuation per position?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 19, 2008, 02:55:29 AM
Make your maths !!! ;D
Seriously they are :
24°) 0 db
23°) -0,96 db
22°) -1,96 db
21°) -2,95 db
20°) -3,97 db
19°) -5,00 db
18°) -6,05 db
17°) -7,13 db
16°) -8,23 db
15°) -9,37 db
14°) -10,54 db
13°) -11,76 db
12°) -13,03 db
11°) -14,37 db
10°) -15,79 db
9°) -17,30 db
8°) -18,95 db
7°) -20,77 db
6°) -22,83 db
5°) -25,24 db
4°) -28,20 db
3°) -32,17 db
2°) -38,64 db
1°) - inf

I hope it helps...

That's pretty close to -1db per step in the last 12 positions and IMO it's really usable.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 19, 2008, 08:03:58 AM
 ;D Thanks... I was always poor in math so I will round the numbers  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 19, 2008, 10:12:15 AM
;D Thanks... I was always poor in math so I will round the numbers  ;)
Of course, round the numbers, I've been precise to let you choose the closer value... I will do the same ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Mr. Snoid on November 20, 2008, 11:07:58 AM
I scored some cheap retired grayhill 70BFD30s for Fabio's 1270 build a while ago and was wondering  if I SHOULD use them as Time Constant switches.

The problem is they are non-shorting, but I could stop them to 6-8-or even 10 position and solder the resistors to the PC board connectors. Would save a few bucks...but is the non-shorting issue a big deal? Could it be compensated for easily with a cap perhaps?

Or should I just say "f**k it" and buy some 2x6 Lorlins?  It's only money, right????  ;)

Tod
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on November 20, 2008, 02:06:09 PM
Hi,

Quick question, for threshold and gain ,I bought on ebay 4x 24 steps rotary switchhes with double deck for my PM670... just need to ask one thing: the values obtained in the Volker's datasheet need to be present in each deck... matched??

Cheers

Eddie ;-D

Ps.: Volker, received you white boards! fantastic! thanks a lot!!!!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 21, 2008, 08:27:54 AM
I scored some cheap retired grayhill 70BFD30s for Fabio's 1270 build a while ago and was wondering  if I SHOULD use them as Time Constant switches.

The problem is they are non-shorting, but I could stop them to 6-8-or even 10 position and solder the resistors to the PC board connectors. Would save a few bucks...but is the non-shorting issue a big deal? Could it be compensated for easily with a cap perhaps?

Or should I just say "f**k it" and buy some 2x6 Lorlins?  It's only money, right????  ;)

Tod
You don't really need shorting switches for the time constants IMO. The only thing that will occur will be weird attack/release during the switching operation... It will take a few microseconds to go from one step to another so...
You DO NEED shorting switch for the input switch only not to hear a clip or a crack when you switch... Threshold is a lot better shorting but I'm not sure you'd be able to hear anything with a non-shorting switch...
To resume :
- Shorting switch for input necessary
- Shorting switch better for threshold
- Any switch or a pot for time constants
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 21, 2008, 08:42:00 AM
Quick question, for threshold and gain ,I bought on ebay 4x 24 steps rotary switchhes with double deck for my PM670... just need to ask one thing: the values obtained in the Volker's datasheet need to be present in each deck... matched??
If you've got time enough, it's certainly better to match them, but stuffing those switches is already a long work so... If you take 1% resistors, your switches will be matched certainly at less than 2% ( 2% is the worst possibility if you buy following resistors in the same bobin )... It's always better than any pot !!! ;D

PS: we certainly bought the same switches...  ;)
If you need the resistors for the switches, I've got 34 left of each value !!! PM me
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 22, 2008, 01:20:30 PM
Hi all.

Finished my PM670 today. Anything seems pretty good. I've got 6,3-6,4V for the heater. All the other voltages and trimmers are set correctly. I checked all switches and the wiring.
But it sounds somewhat distorted if driven at "normal" level. I have to turn down the channel levels in my DAW to about half to hear no clipping. Thought i miswired the gain switches or something like this but the wiring seems o.k. The threshold switch works good, time constants too But the gain switches don't seem to work.

Any ideas where to start searching?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: waldorfcave on November 22, 2008, 01:46:04 PM
But the gain switches don't seem to work.

I think you forgot the cable between the decks of the gain switch! is the same like threshold switch, but not clearly to see in the drawing ::)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 22, 2008, 01:48:53 PM
Yup, I didn't actually see that.  :D
Hope it solves my problems... Thanks mate.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 22, 2008, 02:21:45 PM
 ;D ;D Wow, fixed that tiny error and now my unit works perfectly.
I'm gonna improve the wiring a bit tomorrow and then it's time for some pics.

Thanks to analag, Volker and all that have been involved and of course Lars for that final hint.  :D

Gonna spend the rest of the evening compressing every possible sound signal available...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: waldorfcave on November 22, 2008, 02:32:10 PM
i did the same error :-*
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 23, 2008, 04:11:54 AM
great Benny - show us some pics ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 23, 2008, 02:03:48 PM
I'm trying to order all those heat sinks from Conrad, but it appears they don't have a listing for Canada...or even USA???

How do I get them?  Did anyone buy extras that I can get?  I need enough for a PM670 with PSU.

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 23, 2008, 02:31:01 PM
Just noticed this from the Conrad site:

Attention: USA / Canada!
No delivery possible to USA, canada an the current embargo countries.

What's the deal here?  I'm confused why a German company would refuse to ship to either Canada or the US...

Still looking for these heat sinks then over here.  Any help much appreciated.

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 23, 2008, 02:35:29 PM
Hi Sig,

not a big problem, those heatsinks are standard, nothing special.
available from Mouser and / or DigiKey for sure.

I bet someone who ordered them in the US will help you out with the part numbers.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 23, 2008, 05:34:11 PM
Cool.  Can anyone in the US tell me Mouser part #'s?  I've tried searching Mouser for the #'s on the Conrad site, but to no avail...sooooo many options.

Thanks!!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on November 23, 2008, 09:43:46 PM
WIRING GUIDE

working on this at the moment, feel free to report possible mistakes.
it is not completed right now, but the more complicated connections are in.

http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PoorMan-WiringGuide.pdf

I am wondering if there are any further developments with the wiring guide yet?

I am a little stuck with the Attack switch at to where the wires go to my rotory switch (6 steps)

Also the bridge rectifier. I see we have one casualty already and i'm not really into guessing myself.



And again thanks for the efforts from everyone involved.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on November 24, 2008, 12:17:02 AM
Cool.  Can anyone in the US tell me Mouser part #'s?  I've tried searching Mouser for the #'s on the Conrad site, but to no avail...sooooo many options.

Thanks!!
Sig

Look for Canikin's post  in the first half of the thread that shows all the mouser part numbers.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 24, 2008, 02:53:57 AM
About the heatsinks, this is what I use :
SK104-38.1 have an equivalent : AAVID THERMALLOY 6099BG
Farnell code : 1213464

Maybe it helps...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 24, 2008, 07:36:36 AM
Quote from: rrs
I am wondering if there are any further developments with the wiring guide yet?
I am a little stuck with the Attack switch at to where the wires go to my rotory switch (6 steps)
Also the bridge rectifier. I see we have one casualty already and i'm not really into guessing myself.
haven't heard of any casualty yet, as far as I know all builders are still alive.

but for "building by numbers" I finished the wiring guide today.
feel free to report any mistakes.
finished wiring guide (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PoorMan-WiringGuide.pdf)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on November 24, 2008, 08:34:55 AM
thanks Volker, that wiring guide is much better :)

first I have to order the resistors for the switches, wiring comes next.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 24, 2008, 09:45:16 AM
I see Cannikin's post, but he mentions only 1 part number for Mouser - there are 3 different heat sinks that are needed for this unit...and I can't find a post that anyone actually confirmed these work.  Can I get a confirmation from someone in the US that has ordered all 3 heat sinks from Mouser?

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: shabtek on November 24, 2008, 10:44:43 AM
there at Mouser
567-647-15ABP
567-637-10ABP

only 2 sizes needed as far as I know

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on November 24, 2008, 10:57:51 AM
Ive been searching for an alternative switch other than the elma rotary.  I can't find these uraltone switches anywhere on the net.  I keep finding a guitar amp called uraltone and the site for it.  Can someone throw up a link for me on these switches?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 24, 2008, 11:10:52 AM
Thanks I'll check those out - the original BOM had 3 part numbers for heat sinks, but it appears that 2 of them are very similar...

Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on November 24, 2008, 11:24:15 AM
URALTONE SWITCHES FOR ALL:
http://www.uraltone.com/kauppa/index.php?cPath=15_53

6T9R
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on November 24, 2008, 11:26:52 AM
Thanks 69r

I guess I can remove two of the decks from the 4 deck to have a 2 deck?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on November 24, 2008, 11:43:31 AM
I'M not shure ....i'm waiting the delivery about ,
but i think that can be possible,
anyway you can use only "reel" 1 and 2 , and let the 3 and 4 unused!

6tnr
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 24, 2008, 12:01:00 PM
Thanks 69r

I guess I can remove two of the decks from the 4 deck to have a 2 deck?
I bought some 4 desks and some 2 desks... I didn't try but I think it's possible to remove some desks. But keeping 4 desks is maybe a good solution to save some place between the switches... When they're fed, the overall diameter is about 45mm. If you solder one switch deck1+2 and another deck3+4 you maybe manage to get closer knobs... Just an idea ;D
Anyway they are about the same price 2 or 4 desks, so...

The 4 desks are made to get 2 pots with only 2 resistors on each position (less noise they say... ::))
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on November 24, 2008, 12:02:02 PM
Just wondering...
where do these meters come from? I badly need them for my poorman.  ;D
(http://www.specialstereo.de/fotospoor/fslinks.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on November 24, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
where do these meters come from? I badly need them for my poorman.  ;D

I think it's these:
http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/58-379.aspx

I'll probably be getting them too  :D
They look great!

Rob

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on November 24, 2008, 12:28:21 PM
HELLO
THIS  PART : obsolete
no longer available at mouser
16 x 1N4007 D1-D6,D8,D9,D11-D18

www.mouser.com 583-1N4007

any replacemente , wellcome

6T9R
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on November 24, 2008, 12:59:07 PM
where do these meters come from? I badly need them for my poorman.  ;D

I think it's these:
http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/58-379.aspx

I'll probably be getting them too  :D
They look great!

Rob


Thanks! that's them! Didn't now they where sifam's..
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 24, 2008, 01:29:06 PM
Quote from: SIXTYNINER
THIS  PART : obsolete
no longer available at mouser
www.mouser.com 583-1N4007
any replacemente , wellcome
a replacement for a 1N4007 ??? ;D
just use another 1N4007 order number ...
searching mouser I can find 67 different 1N4007
it is just a DIODE, nothing special  ::)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on November 24, 2008, 04:57:21 PM
Quote from: rrs
I am wondering if there are any further developments with the wiring guide yet?
I am a little stuck with the Attack switch at to where the wires go to my rotory switch (6 steps)
Also the bridge rectifier. I see we have one casualty already and i'm not really into guessing myself.
haven't heard of any casualty yet, as far as I know all builders are still alive.

but for "building by numbers" I finished the wiring guide today.
feel free to report any mistakes.
finished wiring guide (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PoorMan-WiringGuide.pdf)


Hi
I think that's the same wiring guide as I saw previously.

The attack switch and whole PSU are missing for us "building by numbers" people.
It's been a while now so have everything together just waiting on the extra info (And Power Transformer).
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 24, 2008, 05:06:30 PM
Quote
Hi
I think that's the same wiring guide as I saw previously.

The attack switch and whole PSU are missing for us "building by numbers" people.
It's been a while now so have everything together just waiting on the extra info (And Power Transformer).
Wow, you missed something! Everything is on, just check again  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 24, 2008, 05:07:52 PM
Quote from: rrs
I think that's the same wiring guide as I saw previously.

 :o ??? :-\ ;D :o
are you sure ?
cleared your cache, pressed reload ???
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 24, 2008, 05:13:06 PM
Ya dude, this looks solid...I think you're wrong...

Great work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 24, 2008, 05:19:23 PM
Volker it's great you included the "star ground" . It gonna save  a lot of trouble for non experienced members  :) hey Ethan where is the beer emoticon? I wanna give some gallons to Volker  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 24, 2008, 05:38:48 PM
beear arrived even without an emoticon :) ;D :)

well, the ground is how I do it, for me it works best
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on November 24, 2008, 10:23:05 PM
Quote from: rrs
I think that's the same wiring guide as I saw previously.

 :o ??? :-\ ;D :o
are you sure ?
cleared your cache, pressed reload ???

Cool Thanks

Just found it.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Tubemooley on November 25, 2008, 05:10:15 AM
I'm not sure I'm posting this in the correct place..... I just received my PM660 circuit boards yesterday. I have a question for the guys who have an operating PM660 or even a PM670. How does this unit perform when used on the mix buss for full mixes? Would you consider it "fast"? I have a dual Altec 436 copy which I built several years ago and I find it to be too slow for a full mix. I believe the 6AL5 detector is the culprit. The electrons don't seem to scoot thru fast enough on a full mix but this compressor works great on a single track like drums or bass. I was wondering if any of you guys have used your PM660/670 on the mix buss and how do you like that? I'm not looking for any type of heavy stomping. Just light compression to knock the peaks down. Thanks, DW.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on November 25, 2008, 06:39:38 AM
FOUND replacement for
16 x 1N4007 D1-D6,D8,D9,D11-D18
www.mouser.com 583-1N4007
but have 5uA reverse current ir,
not 30ua as that in parts list

good or bad?

6T9R
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 25, 2008, 11:22:38 AM
Tadaaa...

http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?album=307&pos=0
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/displayimage.php?album=307&pos=1

Can't wait to get those nice vintage sifam VUs but sounds great anyway.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on November 25, 2008, 12:49:44 PM
Hi Benny.
did I miss some kind of Wima Mod? Go on, mate!!
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 25, 2008, 12:56:47 PM
Yeah, you can finetune how poor you are with those things... ;) :D
Just kiddin'. I used those things as measuring points for the trimmers.
Didn't want to measure from under the pcbs while the unit is on.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gus on November 25, 2008, 01:06:14 PM
Benny why did you mount the transformers in line and close together?  Whats your crosstalk between transformers?

google passive crossover design and proper coil mounting for low crosstalk between coils.

maybe it is not a issue but I would have measured crosstalk as I mounted them.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Benny on November 25, 2008, 01:12:31 PM
I didn't really care about crosstalk till I read this now...  ;D
I just mounted them as easily as possible.
No problems soundwise. But I'll propably check that sometime.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 25, 2008, 01:23:31 PM
Benny, nice build :)
for the next project we will include measuring points on top of the PCB ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 25, 2008, 03:24:46 PM
Is raising the resistors like this recommended??  For heat reasons?


(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/pm660-diodes.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 25, 2008, 04:13:44 PM
Quote
Is raising the resistors like this recommended??  For heat reasons?
Yes, but at high current points. This Project has no such a points except some PSU and heater PSU. Now you will ask why I soldered the resistors this way  ??? Well, I like to have option to de-solder things and possibly mod some stages. Instead of hundred times de-solder-solder things on PCB you can just cut the legs and you will have perfect solder places  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 25, 2008, 04:46:13 PM
Quote
Benny why did you mount the transformers in line and close together?  Whats your crosstalk between transformers?
Hmm, I was thinking about that (and about hundred other things PM660 related) a lot. I still didn't connected the "thing" because of that.
Placing 8 transformers plus one 150W power transformer in one case can be a real mess. I know that "it will work" just with placing anyhow, but how, that's the question. What about surrounding the each transformer with steel shield... Well, that will interact  with TX core somehow, but crosstalk will be better  ???
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 25, 2008, 04:57:07 PM
Another good reason to have gotten this...

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28299&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30 (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28299&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30)

Ok, so if I put the resistors flat there should be no problem then, right?  I don't really plan on modding this thing at all, I just want it stock.

Still having problems finding this heater resistor - someone mentioned Mouser, but has anyone that has the above power transformer found anything that will work for them?  I'd like to complete my Mouser order today and get these parts here ASAP.

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 25, 2008, 05:05:39 PM
Quote
Ok, so if I put the resistors flat there should be no problem then, right?
Right  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on November 25, 2008, 05:07:33 PM
Yeah, you can finetune how poor you are with those things... ;) :D
Just kiddin'. I used those things as measuring points for the trimmers.
Didn't want to measure from under the pcbs while the unit is on.

I was thinking about this myself and I the first thing I thought when I saw your picture.
I am wondering if this can be measured from somewhere else (say the following component)?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mikeyB on November 26, 2008, 08:10:55 PM
Can I just use IRF840 in place of 820 - higher current - but is there any reason why it MUST be an 820? Want to get break price and use others for valve tester rig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on November 27, 2008, 03:26:45 AM
Hi ,
i'm on this fantastic boat ;D

i have a  question ??? about C13, C14 and C23, C24...
may i use wima 0,1uf rated 63 volts?

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 27, 2008, 04:14:16 AM
Quote from: mikeyB
Can I just use IRF840 in place of 820
yes

Quote from: AW_music
i have a  question  about C13, C14 and C23, C24...
may i use wima 0,1uf rated 63 volts?
on the PSU PCB ?
yes
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bassculture on November 27, 2008, 07:59:55 AM
hi

1/ thanks i got my pcb today ! reliable & fast shipping ! thank you !!

2/ is 4,7K 25turns trimmers ok for the 5K trimmers on the PSU ? any chance we have to turn them to 5K ?
will those can be also ok for the audio PCB as well (enought prescision ?).
1/2w is ok ?

3/ is that rectifier ok ? (Taiwan Semiconductor KBU 1006 Bridge Rectifier, In-Line. 10A, 560V(RMS) 5/5mm)
see there : http://www.banzaieffects.com/KBU1006-pr-24042.html#tabs
does it gets hot ?

4/ i'm building PM670 (1 PSU). what value of the 50W heater resistor do i have to pick up ?
i didn't order them by now, but i'll stick to the tubes you recommend.

thanks ;)






thanks !
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 27, 2008, 08:14:12 AM
bassculture, please read this thread from 1st page. Almost everything is answered many times  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 27, 2008, 10:32:48 AM
Almost everything, yes, except for the heater resistor, which I'm still trying to find.  It is so dependent on the power transformer and tubes you use.  I didn't want to stick a varistor in there personally, and was hoping someone was using the big huge bad ass 670 Avel Lindberg toroid that Kid Squid was selling, as that's what I have.  But there also hasn't been very many successes in this project yet, I count only 3 or 4 finished units that I've actually seen on here.

If we do go with a varistor first, then find the value and replace, does anyone have the correct part number for this on Mouser?  There are like a million to choose from.

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 27, 2008, 11:03:45 AM
I said it somewhere; multi-tap resistor at Mouser for $9.  You wouldn't have to replace it.   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on November 27, 2008, 12:06:19 PM
[...] varistor [...]

Nit: a varistor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor) is a voltage dependent resistor, and probably not what you mean here. To find the proper resistance you could use a rheostat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheostat#Rheostat).

JDB.
[or get a dozen low-value power resistors and attach them in series/parallel until the proper voltage is reached. More resistors = easier heat dissipation, and tube heaters are forgiving enough to accept brief overvoltage blips]
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 27, 2008, 01:09:48 PM
Doug, can you get me the actual part # of what you used?

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 27, 2008, 01:47:45 PM
If you want to save the money then go with fixed resistor as designer stated. If you want to be precise in the filament voltage then it's much better if you go with regulated slow turn on supply. Rheostat is expensive and you still depend on the mains voltage, so you are precise as your country or area voltage  ;) I decided to go with two LM338 for stereo unit . It saves the tubes life  it's precise and it's cheaper than varistor.
Cheers ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 27, 2008, 01:53:16 PM
Can you show me a pic of how you did this Moby?  And you're talking the LM338 voltage regulator?  I'm quite confused now...aren't we talking about 2 different parts...?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 27, 2008, 01:58:25 PM
regulated heaters are not a bad decision, but will need some good heatsinks.
Sig, look at the schematic of the D-AOC heater PSU as a start.
for a PM670 (stereo) you would need one for each channel.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 27, 2008, 04:06:10 PM
Quote
regulated heaters are not a bad decision, but will need some good heatsinks.
I agree, but with resistor at 5 or 6A consumption you will have a heat anyway. Same thing, something have to burn the voltage from 12 to 6.3 V.... pure energy thing  ;D
Quote
Can you show me a pic of how you did this Moby?  And you're talking the LM338 voltage regulator?  I'm quite confused now...aren't we talking about 2 different parts...?
No we are talking about same thing but one is non regulated and the other one is regulated. Here is basic schematics I started from. Sorry I didn't included the values (hurry, hurry  ;) ) but they are in the LM338 datasheet anyway. Don't be confused with parallel parts Its because I wanted few footprints for part on my PCB... You just have to adjust the voltage with R4 (2k5 or 5k) to 6.3V. This approach is good because if you one day want to replace the Valves you can re-adjust the filament voltage easily. Yes, Two circuits like this for stereo unit....
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/slowturnonfilament.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on November 27, 2008, 07:14:53 PM
That's interesting...

Even if you don't change the valves, this unregulated supply is problematic.
I'm using the poorman since one week next to my diy summing box and the heater voltage change from 6.4V at start  to 6.2V 4 hours later.
There is some distortion (wich is not really annoying) at 6.4 and after 15 minutes distortion gone away heater voltage is 6.3V.

Another thing...
Did some people noticed that the 5687 are becoming very hot after 15 minutes.
The plastic socket are litteraly  cooked by the heat of the valve.Is that normal?
I think I will change those sockets to ceramics ones.
No problem with 6bc8.

Besides those little things I want to thank analag and silent art for that project wich really improve my sound quality ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

The musicians enjoyed the mix session with that vari mu.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on November 27, 2008, 08:38:24 PM
The 5687 heaters run of 0.9A each (IIRC) - they will get very hot.
distortion with 6.4V and no distortion with 6.3V is strange ....
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 27, 2008, 09:38:01 PM
Sounds like tubes that still need to be burned in, or some other problem.  Slight filament voltage variation and distortion are not related IMO.    We are in tolerance here either way.   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 27, 2008, 10:03:13 PM
Doug, can you get me the actual part # of what you used?

Thanks!
Sig

Sorry, I can't as I don't need and haven't ordered one.  I glanced in the catalog months ago when this came up, and posted about it then.  There's a wide variety of tapped resistors available.  Ohmite, I think.  25 or 50W 1 ohm. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 28, 2008, 04:19:33 AM
Did some people noticed that the 5687 are becoming very hot after 15 minutes.
The plastic socket are litteraly  cooked by the heat of the valve.Is that normal?
I think I will change those sockets to ceramics ones.
we mentioned before somewhere that you have to use ceramic sockets because of the 5687 heat ...
hey, send us some pics of your finished PM ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bassculture on November 28, 2008, 04:57:35 AM
hi

first : thanks for sharing this. regulated heater supply is a must.  ;D ;D ;D
i experienced lot of "mystic" / weird behaviours with gear from the 50's & 60's because of unregulated heater supply.

moby :
Quote
Don't be confused with parallel parts Its because I wanted few footprints for part on my PCB...
i am confused ! ;)
is R1 = R2 = R3 ? just use one of them 3 ?
is there 3 because you want 3 footprints on the pcb ? (for component placement, matter of size... ?)
I don't understand...

by the way, looking at the PSU PCB, i'm wondering, where do you plug you heater supply regulator ?
beetween the rectifier and the PSU PCB ?

and if you have time to post values of component, you'll make a bunch of dyiers happy ;)

thanks ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 28, 2008, 06:11:24 AM
in the LM338 datasheet you will find the important component values :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 08:20:59 AM
OK, I found some time and updated the schemo. Sorry, I don't have a PCB file, I accidentally deleted that from my disk, but I'm sure if you ask Volker he will do something. Can you Volker?  ;)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/SLOWTURNONLarge.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 28, 2008, 08:34:35 AM
Hehe, I started to work from the datasheet on my own this morning :)

4700µF is a little bit overkill, I would like to keep the PCB as small as possible.
how many watt do you suggest for R1 ? (R8 isn't needed in my opinion)
looks something like this at the moment:

(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/heaterreg-prev01.png)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 09:09:24 AM
Great Volker. Well, R8 is highly recommended because it protect LM338 from oscillating. It's more important than R1  ;) Please don't exclude that. With 12V and 2.6A consumption you will have something around 1.5W dissipation. So , 3W will work for both R1,R8 but I went with 5W.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 28, 2008, 09:33:40 AM
ok, let me source some parts and packaging options.
will include R8.
those 5W square resistors ?
single sided for home edging, or double sided for manufacturing ?
what I have learned is you need to use parts easily available all over the world,
but this makes it somehow slow ... ???
but ok, working on it
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 09:48:19 AM
Volker, I think that most of guys will like to have finished PCB's . I did it for myself already but it's up to you to decide. You can include that to all PCB's you offer since it's universal filament PSU and can be used in various projects  ;D
Parts, well , I bought all of parts locally so mine source won't work for this. I went with 5W ceramic power resistors. I's widely available. If you want me to "trace" the parts I can do that but nothing fancy is included here. BTW , if you decided to go with finnished PCB's maybe you can include the heatsink on it. Same as PM main PSU
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 28, 2008, 10:52:25 AM
regulated heater supply is a must. 

I disagree with this.  I have owned around 10 types of vintage tube limiters with unregulated filament supplies, and it's not been an issue.  I turn on around 120 tubes at my studio every day.  Not a regulated filament supply among the pieces.  Haven't replaced a tube due to any sonic problem in close to 10 years.   Never personally seen a filament failure in an operating tube amp in 20 years of operating tube gear. 

Lots of old tested tubes in my gear.   New tubes have a burn in period, and can seem problematic for the first 40-50 hours of operation.  Leave the thing on for a week and then start listening more critically. 

PRR has already written a good amount about these filament issues in other threads. 

But you will likely build a regulated filament supply, and it will work.   You will have increased the complexity of the piece and increased the odds of other failure due to increased parts count. 

I have seen regulated supplies fail more than unregulated types, and regulated portions of tube limiters fail where the unregulated sections didn't.  I've seen the failure of DC portions of filament supplies that used both AC and DC for different parts of the amp.  I've never seen a filament contribute to the problem.   

Buy the $9 multi-tap resistor, fine tune it's adjustment for an hour and forget about it.    Im 100% sure that will work perfectly; it has for many decades in many amps.   It's not a 'paint by numbers' part of the equation, unfortunately.   1/10th of an ohm can make a large difference, so it can't be predicted. 

A final point:  I challenge anyone to find another tube limiter thread here in which it's been decided that regulated filament supply is a must.   LA-2A, Federal, BA-6A, 436C, etc etc.  As far as I can tell this is simple fear of a variable part value, a part that works fine in the prototype builds.     
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on November 28, 2008, 11:11:52 AM
Hey emrr,
I presume this is the adjustable tap resistor you mean:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=J6Z1PhGvUbzIlcveIcozLA%3d%3d

If not, I presume that it'd be suitable anyway.I don't think I'll bother with a regulated heater supply either.

Rob
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 11:21:32 AM
Quote
I have owned around 10 types of vintage tube limiters with unregulated filament supplies, and it's not been an issue
must be that your area has a stable mains voltage . mine not  ;) The current-regulated filament supply does have one other advantage – it protects the filament from over-current at startup, which can prolong the life of the filament. That's not my opinion that's a fact.
Quote
Hey emrr,
I presume this is the adjustable tap resistor you mean:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=J6Z1PhGvUbzIlcveIcozLA%3d%3d
No, it's a 1ohm resistor and you need something higher, say 1.5 or 2ohm so you can adjust that since you will need around 1ohm for stereo unit. this one can do a job for both, stereo or mono units http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=ecf2eIk0DojJWcSH%252bYlZdg%3d%3d
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 28, 2008, 11:51:16 AM
Quote
I have owned around 10 types of vintage tube limiters with unregulated filament supplies, and it's not been an issue
must be that your area has a stable mains voltage . mine not  ;) The current-regulated filament supply does have one other advantage – it protects the filament from over-current at startup, which can prolong the life of the filament. That's not my opinion that's a fact.

I think it borders on a pointless impractical fact; how long are we talking?  Again, reference PRR's commentary on the subject.  Tube filaments have a design center life that is quite long.  Like I said, I haven't seen a filament failure in 20+ years.   Be sensible; how much will you pay (time and $) to put together a regulated filament supply versus buying a decent stock of replacement tubes (that you may never need to use)?  Again, where are the other tube limiter builds here that have been modified for regulated filament supply?  Or the examples of failures because of the lack?  I can't find one example.  My mains voltage fluctuates about 112 to 128; I think not so stable.   

Quote
I presume this is the adjustable tap resistor you mean:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=J6Z1PhGvUbzIlcveIcozLA%3d%3d
No, it's a 1ohm resistor and you need something higher, say 1.5 or 2ohm so you can adjust that since you will need around 1ohm for stereo unit. this one can do a job for both, stereo or mono units http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=ecf2eIk0DojJWcSH%252bYlZdg%3d%3d
[/quote]

That's the type of resistor, yes.   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 12:41:34 PM
Quote
My mains voltage fluctuates about 112 to 128; I think not so stable.
Cool, than you will have a filament voltage swing of +/- 0.8V... If it's OK with you to supply from 5.5-7.1V than you go with that but don't bother with rheostat. Just drop 1ohm power resistor and it will work. I'm not sarcastic, just suggesting. ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 28, 2008, 12:56:55 PM
OK, I found some time and updated the schemo. Sorry, I don't have a PCB file, I accidentally deleted that from my disk, but I'm sure if you ask Volker he will do something. Can you Volker?  ;)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/SLOWTURNONLarge.jpg)
Is there a real need of Q1 to stabilize the tension on R4 ?
Wouldn't a single cap, let's say 10uF, paralleled with R4 do the job ?  I think the PSU is over regulated (it's always better than under regulated  ;)) But I think it would work without Q1 and R6... And certainly without C1,R1 and R8...

If it does, Volker, the job is done... Copy the DAOC PSU and here you are, LM338 and LM350 are pin compatible !!! ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 28, 2008, 01:24:51 PM
Be sensible; how much will you pay (time and $) to put together a regulated filament supply versus buying a decent stock of replacement tubes (that you may never need to use)?  Again, where are the other tube limiter builds here that have been modified for regulated filament supply?  Or the examples of failures because of the lack?  I can't find one example.  My mains voltage fluctuates about 112 to 128; I think not so stable.   
I agree I've never seen a tube filament fail...
I disagree, 7 tubes getting old fast for one filament fail is a real risk...
Can you find brand new 6BC8 or 5687 ? No, the best you'll find will be NOS.
Are NOS tubes secure : no. There's minor risks of glass porosity, real risks of bad treatments (by shipping or ex-owner).
If your tube fails, the problem is 100% yours. I prefer to repair sometimes my PSU with brand new IC's than to change my "not-nowadays-built" tubes. But that's a matter of taste...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 01:33:35 PM
Quote
Is there a real need of Q1 to stabilize the tension on R4 ?
Wouldn't a single cap, let's say 10uF, paralleled with R4 do the job ?  I think the PSU is over regulated (it's always better than under regulated  ;)) But I think it would work without Q1 and R6... And certainly without C1,R1 and R8...
Q1 works in the slow turn on circuit. I didn't tried without it  :-\ If you try please tell me if that works like slow turn on. Yes, capacitors are bit larger than needed but front C-R-C of useful. 2200uf will work great for 2.6A filament.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 28, 2008, 02:29:14 PM
Q1 works in the slow turn on circuit.
I was planing to do a "DAOC like" filaments PSU but the slow turn on is a great idea, maybe totaly useless (DAOC works without it) but a great idea !!!  ;)
I assume that nearly any PNP with a 100+ hfe will work in this circuit...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 02:58:08 PM
Quote
I was planing to do a "DAOC like" filaments PSU but the slow turn on is a great idea, maybe totaly useless (DAOC works without it) but a great idea !!!
Filament Current consumption for DAOC is half from PM660. Yes it works without regulation but ... I don't wanna to repeat same thing hundred times  ;) PM works too with just a resistor. It's your choice I just suggest safer and as most people claim better (more stable)sounding solution.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 28, 2008, 03:41:50 PM
to keep this simple:

I'm with emrr.

a regulated PSU won't hurt, but I disagree it is a better sounding or whatever solution.
however it is the best solution if you don't want to find out your value of your "mystic" R.

won't finish it today, but I will do a PCB design with Moby's LM338 slow start suggestion.
that is all I can offer for this topic.

(the analag original way is working)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 28, 2008, 04:06:03 PM
Filament Current consumption for DAOC is half from PM660.
You certainly wanted to say : Filament Current consumption for DAOC is half from PM670  ;D
DAOC current is 6 x 300mA = 1,8 A
PM660 is 2 x 400mA + 2 x 900mA = 2,6A
LM350 handle 3A current out...
LM338 handle 5A current out... Anyway you're out of it's power with only 1 LM338 PSU for a PM670

In both cases, you've got to use 2 filament PSU for a PM670.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on November 28, 2008, 10:07:47 PM
Quote
that is all I can offer for this topic
Me too  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 28, 2008, 10:27:02 PM
Quote
My mains voltage fluctuates about 112 to 128; I think not so stable.
Cool, than you will have a filament voltage swing of +/- 0.8V... If it's OK with you to supply from 5.5-7.1V

So shoot for 5V at the bottom if you really want to be sure 6.6 is the top.   Works fine with most tubes. 

I disagree, 7 tubes getting old fast for one filament fail is a real risk...

Not sure I am following this one.  If one filament fails our ears should surely tell us that a tube needs to be replaced.  Not likely at all that the other 7 tubes would be damaged by a brief period of higher filament voltage due to load lightening on the supply. 

Quote
Can you find brand new 6BC8 or 5687 ? No, the best you'll find will be NOS.
Are NOS tubes secure : no. There's minor risks of glass porosity, real risks of bad treatments (by shipping or ex-owner).
If your tube fails, the problem is 100% yours. I prefer to repair sometimes my PSU with brand new IC's than to change my "not-nowadays-built" tubes.

Ah, but how many times in repair world have we found 15-30 year old parts that could not be easily replaced; either because they aren't made or the current parts no longer fit on the board in question, and required a circuit board hack.   I spend way more labor time fixing new stuff than I do 70 year old stuff.  Tube stuff is never this way, and these tubes are CHEAP.  I find no excuse for not buying 3 times as many as one might need in the expected life of the piece.   A $900 PM670 build with 2 additional tube sets adds under $50 (USA at least) to the price.   Tube hoarding is part of the bargain with owning tube gear.  You face this sooner or later and sooner is smarter than later.  In my experience I expect all other possible failures from a tube OTHER than filament to occur first.  Either way it's a tube replacement.  They decide to change the footprints of a several parts on your additional circuit board 10 years down the road, suddenly you find you need a whole new module sometimes.   Just seems an unnecessary additional bet to take for no strong reason, IMO.    I like the 'keep it simple, stupid' plan.   


Quote
that is all I can offer for this topic
Me too  ;)

me too!  tried to stay out of this before already. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on November 28, 2008, 11:53:33 PM
Cool, thanks for the info guys - I'm going with the adjustable resistor.  I too, want to keep it simple.   ;)

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on November 29, 2008, 06:57:18 AM
Just to end my part of this topic, and not to hurt anybody these are just points of view:

If one filament fails our ears should surely tell us that a tube needs to be replaced.  Not likely at all that the other 7 tubes would be damaged by a brief period of higher filament voltage due to load lightening on the supply.
If you can hear a 5687 fail in dual operation mode, I just think we don't have the same hears... because I'm sure I can't hear something out of the signal path  :-\ :-\ :-\

Quote
that is all I can offer for this topic
Me too  ;)
me too!  tried to stay out of this before already. 
I'm definitively out of this now.  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on November 29, 2008, 11:58:00 AM
If you can hear a 5687 fail in dual operation mode, I just think we don't have the same hears... because I'm sure I can't hear something out of the signal path  :-\ :-\ :-\

Compression characteristic would surely change; we should hear that part.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on November 29, 2008, 02:24:04 PM
Whew... got her completed. Recycled case, home-made front panel. Sounds really good. One question, I noticed that the threshold controls seem to be slightly interactive with other. For instance when I adjust the right channel it will affect the left channel meter just for a second and vice versa. Can't hear anything noticeable just curious if this is normal.
(http://)(http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l265/studiodave/fairchild1.jpg)


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 29, 2008, 02:28:19 PM
GREAT - another one ;D ;D ;D
did you use shorting (MBB) switches ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dspruill on November 29, 2008, 02:48:42 PM
No, they are the uraltone switches.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on November 30, 2008, 02:55:59 AM
Whew... got her completed. Recycled case, home-made front panel. Sounds really good.




wow, that surely looks good !
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 30, 2008, 07:23:09 AM
slow start regulated heater PSU,
initiated by moby:

(http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PSUs/HEATPSU-3D.gif)

schematic & PCB files (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PSUs/HEATPSU_homeetch.pdf)
mirrored 1200 dpi homeedge BMP (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PSUs/HEATPSU_homeetch.bmp)

to use it with the poor man you need one for each channel
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on November 30, 2008, 07:30:20 AM
slow start FTW!

I hope to get at least one channel wired next week, for testing
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 30, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
forgot to mention:
to use this with the poor man you need one for each channel
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on November 30, 2008, 11:20:08 AM
Volker, are you also going to make the pcb's too ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 30, 2008, 01:15:31 PM
why not, if there is enough interest:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30642
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on November 30, 2008, 03:04:28 PM
good one ! :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: sverige_cruz on November 30, 2008, 05:53:20 PM
Anyone have any sound samples of this unit? I'm still stashing away parts when I can (read: have cash) - would be nice to hear something that'll be in my possession once I do eventually get it put together.


EDIT: ah - here they are:

Quote
Before:
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PM660-1.wav
After:
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PM660-02.wav
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on November 30, 2008, 05:59:46 PM
there are sound samples somewhere
since I don't have the knowledge how link a specific post you will have to do a search
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jdbakker on November 30, 2008, 07:31:35 PM
[...] I don't have the knowledge how link a specific post [...]
In the new forum software each post has a link in its title, you can copy those to jump to a specific post. For example, this points to your regulated heater PSU board on the previous page of this thread: http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg371412#msg371412 (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg371412#msg371412) (or: as an embedded text link (http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg371412#msg371412)).

JDB.
[still coming to grips with SMF, and still working on an autoforwarder for old links]
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: glide 1 on December 01, 2008, 12:29:13 AM
can someone confirm if this 12 position switch for GAIN & THRESHOLD would work, thanks.

C4D0212S (shorting) or C4D0212N (non shorting)?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 01, 2008, 03:01:56 AM
JDB, thanks a lot :) :) :)

glide, take the shorting switch
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bassculture on December 01, 2008, 03:49:33 AM
hi glide 1 ;)

i was thinking of thoses too...

did you get a quote for them ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: brother303 on December 01, 2008, 04:05:48 AM
Hi,

one question on the heater psu-pcb:

Where do I hook up that board?

Just put it between the psu-pcb and PoorMan-pcb?

Or right behind the heater rectifier?

Or right behind the torodial 9V/6A output?

Is R15 still needed or can it be let out or bridged?

Thank you!

Greg

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: glide 1 on December 01, 2008, 04:46:50 AM
hi glide 1 ;)

i was thinking of thoses too...

did you get a quote for them ?

They are roughly $20 US from farnell. But now i see they do not have the shorting type as recommended by volker. The hunt continues....
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bassculture on December 01, 2008, 04:49:32 AM
i'm alos searching for 15K double pots...

hopefully, i didn't have a lot of remaining hairs on my head... i wont regret them ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: brother303 on December 01, 2008, 05:11:24 AM
Hello,

Quote
Or right behind the heater rectifier?

Sorry,dumb question. Found the schems and everything is clear now!

 :-*

greg
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on December 01, 2008, 09:50:04 AM
DELIRIUM TREMENS !

PCB REV 1
HALF WATT METAL FILM RESISTORS
4 x 47R ----R11,R12,R13,R14
1 x 120R ---R18
5 x 330R ---R1,R2,R3,R4,R10
2 x 470R ---R7,R8
1 x 4K7 ----R16
2 x 10K ----R5,R9
2 x 22K ----R6,R15
1 x 221K ---R17

PCB REV 2
HALF WATT METAL FILM RESISTORS
2 x 120R ----R13,R14
2 x 475R ----R5,R11
1 x 560R ----R4
2 x 121K ----R2,R3
2 x 150K ----R6,R10
1 x 182K ----R9
2 x 221K ----R7,R12

2 WATT METAL FILM RESISTORS
2 x 47R ----R1,R8

WHAT IS THE RIGHT?

POSSIBLE A PCB JPG WITH REPLACEMENT INDICATIONS?
thanks
6T9R

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 01, 2008, 12:08:52 PM
DELIRIUM TREMENS !
...
WHAT IS THE RIGHT?
;DBOTH
one is for the audio PCB and the other for the PSU PCB
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on December 01, 2008, 03:07:20 PM
For whatever it's worth, I pulled a 5687 off of a PM660 circuit board and compared the voltage change.  4A unregulated filament supply feeding this 2.6A card.  Voltage change from loss of one 0.9A filament was 0.15V. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 01, 2008, 03:24:03 PM
Voltage change from loss of one 0.9A filament was 0.15V
this underlines that regulated heaters are not necessary or dangerous (http://www.nrgrecording.de/nrg/images/smiles/icon_thumleft.gif)
thanks for the test :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on December 01, 2008, 06:24:08 PM
Voltage change from loss of one 0.9A filament was 0.15V. 

Thanks, your test prooves me I was wrong !!! Hopefully !!!  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: glide 1 on December 02, 2008, 01:58:10 AM
Heatsinks

does anyone have Farnell codes for the following heatsinks:

for Q1 - board
for IC1 and IC2 - PSU

thanks in advance.

glide 1

Edited: Found them

Farnell codes

4 x 1368058 - 2 for IC1 and IC2 PSU and 1 for each board (Q1)
2 x 1319813 - for Q4 and Q5
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bassculture on December 02, 2008, 06:01:14 AM
i find almost everything at Banzaieffects.com

search is easyer, less references... it saves a lot lot of time !
sometimes it's a little bit more expensive but... time is money ;)


here my order :
Notice > i didn't double check - maybe mistakes...
when i copy > paste, i loose the numbers (how many) of items.

just copy the first line in search engine > you get to the product !

WIMA MKS2 0,22uF, 63V
MKS2 10%, RM5 
€0.18 x  = €0.36

WIMA MKS2 0,1uF, 63V 5%
MKS2 5%, RM5 
€0.15 x  = €0.60

WIMA MKS2 1,5uF, 63V
MKS2 10%, RM5 
€0.42 x  = €0.84

WIMA MKP4 10uF 250V
MKP4 10uF, 250 VDC/160 VAC, Tolerance: 10%, LS 37,5mm, Size: 19x32x41,5 mm 
€5.24 x  = €20.96

1N4148-PHI
Silicon Universal Diode, made by NXP Philips
75V 150mA DO35 
€0.10 x  = €1.00

WIMA MKP4 0,1uF 630V
MKP4 0,1uF, 630 VDC/280 VAC, Tolerance: 10%, LS 15mm, Size: 7x14x18 mm 
€0.61 x  = €2.44

Panasonic FC 10uF 25V
Panasonic FC electrolytic radial capacitor. Low impedance, long life. Widely acknowledged to be one of the best electrolytic caps available. Black blue body with gold marking.
Dimensions: 4x7mm, LS 1,5mm. 
€0.19 x  = €0.38

Panasonic FC 100uF 25V
Panasonic FC electrolytic radial capacitor. Low impedance, long life. Widely acknowledged to be one of the best electrolytic caps available. Black blue body with gold marking.
Dimensions: 6,3x11,2mm, LS 2,5mm. 
€0.24 x  = €0.48

Panasonic FC 1000uF 25V
Panasonic FC electrolytic radial capacitor. Low impedance, long life. Widely acknowledged to be one of the best electrolytic caps available. Black blue body with gold marking.
Dimensions: 12,5x20,0mm, LS 5,0mm. 
€0.94 x  = €3.76

Panasonic FC 4700uF 16V
Panasonic FC electrolytic radial capacitor. Low impedance, long life. Widely acknowledged to be one of the best electrolytic caps available. Black blue body with gold marking.
Dimensions: 18,0x25,0mm, LS 7,5mm. 
€2.98 x  = €5.96
including VAT 19% (€0.95)

Roederstein EKA 47uF 350V
Vishay Roederstein EKO electrolytic radial capacitor. High switching capability, polarized, isolated.
Dimensions: 16x25mm, LS 7,5mm. 
€1.79 x  = €1.79

100uF, 350V Radial
Electrolytic Radial 18x40mm, RM7,5 
€2.74 x  = €8.22

1N4007
Silicon Diode, 1000V 1A, DO41 
€0.06 x  = €0.96

MPSA42
NPN 300V 0,5A 0,625W B>25 TO92 
€0.12 x  = €0.24

MPSA92
PNP 300V 0,5A 0,625W B>25 TO92 
€0.12 x  = €0.12

IRF820
N-MOS 500V 2,5A 50W 3,0R TO220AB 
€0.71 x  = €0.71

IRF840
N-MOS 500V 8A 125W 0,85R TO220AB 
€0.90 x  = €0.90

LM317T
LM317 T
Voltage Regulator 1,2V - 37V, 1,5A TO220 
€0.31 x  = €0.31

Heat Sink SHS104-38ST-SCREW
Heatsink for all semiconductors in TO220, SOT32- and TOP3 package. 38,1mm. Vertical mount using included solder terminals (Ø 2,3mm). Semiconductor attachable using M3 screws (through hole without threading). Black anodized. RthK: 11 K/W. 
€1.31 x  = €2.62

Heat Sink SHS104-51ST-SCREW
Heatsink for all semiconductors in TO220, SOT32- and TOP3 package. 50,8mm. Vertical mount using included solder terminals (Ø 2,3mm). Semiconductor attachable using M3 screws (through hole without threading). Black anodized. RthK: 9 K/W. 
€1.43 x  = €2.86

Heat Sink SHS104-25ST-SCREW
Heatsink for all semiconductors in TO220, SOT32- and TOP3 package. 25,4mm. Vertical mount using included solder terminals (Ø 2,3mm). Semiconductor attachable using M3 screws (through hole without threading). Black anodized. RthK: 14 K/W. 
€1.31 x  = €2.62

220uF, 400V Radial
Electrolytic Radial 25x40mm, LS10 
€4.97 x  = €9.94

Trimpot T93-YB 4,7k
VISHAY Precision Trimpot, vertical, multiturn, cermet, 1/2W 4,7k
Dimensions: 9,7x4,8mm. Leg spacing: 5,08/2,54mm 
€0.71 x  = €4.26

2N6107
2N6107 Transistor PNP 70V 7A 40W TO220 
€0.82 x  = €1.64


i took the resistors and the few things remainning at farnell.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on December 02, 2008, 04:57:38 PM
I ordered tube Porcelain sockets from Tube Depot - the package says they're Porcelain, but they sure as hell look and feel a lot like plastic...anyone else get these?  Did they mess up?  Isn't porcelain and ceramic supposed to be pretty much the same thing??

Thanks,
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bluebird on December 03, 2008, 01:39:45 AM
Heres mine with the "bluebird pimp psychedelic mod" ;D :o ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bluebird on December 03, 2008, 01:43:00 AM
one more for the inside....before the addition of the 6ba6 GR tubes... ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on December 03, 2008, 02:10:06 AM
cool layout.  link switch?  or permanent stereo?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on December 03, 2008, 04:22:56 AM
bluebird,

Nice... but what the hell is that GIGANTIC RESISTOR ?  :o

That thing is freakin HUGH.... WOW!

Did you buy that on purpose? I have the recommended 50 watt's & they're no bigger than half a finger.

Holly cow that's big... whoa.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on December 03, 2008, 10:09:57 AM
Quote
6ba6 GR tubes
So you liked the 6ba6 version better?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bluebird on December 03, 2008, 11:33:13 AM
cool layout.  link switch?  or permanent stereo?

I decided I didn't want a link switch so its just a dual mono unit...

bluebird,

Nice... but what the hell is that GIGANTIC RESISTOR ?  :o

Yea, I work in an electronics surplus store so I have a lot of over size things at my disposal. ;)
I just wanted to dissipate the heat through more area. I also added the two fans.

Quote
6ba6 GR tubes
So you liked the 6ba6 version better?

Yes, much better.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on December 03, 2008, 10:04:05 PM
Careful getting Porcelain sockets from Tube Depot - turns out those WERE plastic.  Something with their part numbers and stock was messed up.  They're sending replacements.  Just thought I'd mention it if anyone was ordering.

Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: jackies on December 03, 2008, 11:45:35 PM
wow, love the gigantic resistor
so could you elaborate on 6ba6 tubes?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on December 03, 2008, 11:49:32 PM
Careful getting Porcelain sockets from Tube Depot - turns out those WERE plastic.  Something with their part numbers and stock was messed up.  They're sending replacements.  Just thought I'd mention it if anyone was ordering.

Sig

Great; have been suspicious of mine which I've had for 6 months now.   Time for a closer look.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: glide 1 on December 04, 2008, 07:07:32 AM
Sockets

Can someone please confirm which of these are the ones i need for the PM670?

http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/[email protected]:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?item=P-ST9-217
http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/[email protected]:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?item=P-ST9-223
http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/[email protected]:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?item=P-ST9-225

Thanks in advance.

Oh and are sockets for PM670 and D-AOC the same??


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 04, 2008, 07:15:57 AM
this one looks good (http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/[email protected]:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?item=P-ST9-222)
the ones you posted will work in the D-AOC.
sadly they are not the same
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: glide 1 on December 04, 2008, 07:46:57 AM
Thanks Volker, Just to clarify, the link you gave is for the PM670 and i would need 8 pieces

And any of the 3 links i posted will work for the D-AOC? which 1 in particular? believe the dimensions for the 3 are different...

Sorry to ask, but just want to make sure before i put in the order.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on December 04, 2008, 10:23:34 AM
What?  I'm confused...why would they not work?  Won't any 9 pin ceramic socket work, with maybe a little fitting in?  Or am I missing something...

Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 04, 2008, 12:47:24 PM
the PM660 sockets are smaller than the usual ones I use like in the D-AOC or D-LA2A.
footprint and diameter are different and smaller, haven't tried to fit one.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on December 04, 2008, 01:26:48 PM
Quote
so could you elaborate on 6ba6 tubes?
It's explained here. http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=29056.60 Let's that continue there because it's a pimp  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Jonkan on December 04, 2008, 04:17:37 PM
Can someone check for me if this is the correct type of noval socket? im not to familiar with what different types there are available.

http://www.banzaieffects.com/Tube-Socket-NOV-PCY-pr-26157.html

Thanks!
/J
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on December 04, 2008, 09:30:05 PM
Question about the XLR's guys.  The BOM says to use those NC3FD PCB mount type XLR's, and I see that they have pin 1, 2, 3 and G.  I'm not mounting my XLR's directly to the boards, but using long pins to connect them (already cut and mounted XLR's a long time ago).  The board has solder holes for 1, 2, 3 and G, so if I use a standard XLR (if I even can), what goes to G?  I noticed the pic above has this done, but I can't tell how exactly.

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on December 05, 2008, 09:10:07 AM
Hi,
here are some pictures of how I connected the relay bypass boards with standard XLRs.

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/The_Raven_010%7E0.jpg)

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/The_Raven_011%7E0.jpg)

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/The_Raven_013%7E1.jpg)

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/The_Raven_014%7E1.jpg)

hope this helps
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Siegfried Meier on December 05, 2008, 10:14:08 AM
Cool, thanks for the pics - so that ground pin is not needed then.

Thanks a bunch!!
Sig
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 05, 2008, 10:34:29 AM
the ground pin doesn't have any connection to anything on the bypass PCB.
there are jumpers to ground as an option.
but I prefer to star ground them without using the jumpers.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on December 09, 2008, 09:43:58 AM
LUNDAHL TRAFO
on pm660???

 ???
 :o
6T9R
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on December 09, 2008, 10:08:34 AM
LUNDAHL TRAFO
on pm660???

 ???
 :o
6T9R

These pictures were taken from the D-AOC, not the PM670
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on December 09, 2008, 07:02:28 PM
Careful getting Porcelain sockets from Tube Depot - turns out those WERE plastic.  Something with their part numbers and stock was messed up.  They're sending replacements.  Just thought I'd mention it if anyone was ordering.

Sig

Damn....  :o

I have already solderd mine in and didn't realise.
Will the plastic ones be OK?

I don't wan't to fork out another $50 for tubes and shipping.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 09, 2008, 07:08:13 PM
don't know what happens to plastic sockets if they get too hot - melting ?
but we are talking about a very hot peace of gear ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on December 10, 2008, 02:15:58 PM

Silentarts mentioned his site as being down to crossover ?
looking for the Bom , and / or how to get to the grp mailbox

tia , regards Greg
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 10, 2008, 03:10:44 PM
Greg,

the links to the BOM at the first post in this thread are fixed.
(be aware it is still the first version without any changes)
for the group diy mail account look in the meta meta, at the bottom there are instructions how to use it.

yes, I consolidated my communication contracts, with the result silentarts.net being down.
correcting all this links manually are a pain, but the important ones will actually move as time allows.
the same (pain & result) with cross linked postings issued to the forum software change.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on December 10, 2008, 05:23:11 PM
Can some one clarify which two IRF80xx  are needed on the psu  to power two units , i am about to solder them in now just want to make sure..
regards

skal 1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 10, 2008, 05:30:15 PM
mono unit: 2 x IRF820 is fine
stereo unit: 1 x IRF840 & 1 x IRF820 is fine
2 x IRF840 is fine for any unit
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on December 10, 2008, 05:51:55 PM
Thanks {Arts}


regards

skal1

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: geoff004 on December 11, 2008, 01:50:32 PM
Careful getting Porcelain sockets from Tube Depot - turns out those WERE plastic.  Something with their part numbers and stock was messed up.  They're sending replacements.  Just thought I'd mention it if anyone was ordering.

Sig

Great; have been suspicious of mine which I've had for 6 months now.   Time for a closer look.

I just got 8 from Parts Express.  They appear to be a resin of some kind -definitely NOT porcelain.
Does some actually sell porcelain sockets in the US somewhere?


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on December 11, 2008, 08:35:19 PM
http://www.tubesandmore.com/ 

This where I buy mine, in fact I just bought a few to to do a little bit of prototyping

analag
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: glide 1 on December 12, 2008, 10:42:52 AM
Yup Tubesandmore have very good prices + they have 10% off on everything for the month december  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on December 12, 2008, 12:31:26 PM
Hi there! ;D
Could someone post references of tubes @ tubesandmore (I certainly missed a previous post mentionning them :P)
Maybe ceramic sockets too???
In the name of noobiness.... : thanks!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on December 12, 2008, 02:49:10 PM
@RedNoise  Are you talking about the 9 pin tube sockets, if yes here is a link http://tubedepot.com/sk-9pinpc.html


regards


skal`1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on December 13, 2008, 02:37:54 PM
Thanks very much Skal1 , it's very helpfull for a noob like I.As I already ordered so much "wrong" electronic parts...Ahhhhhh noobiness... ::)
I was also talkin about references of tubes...
I'll be happy to get ref for D LA2A...but it's off topic!! ;D
Thanks again.
T.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SUPERMAGOO on December 15, 2008, 05:32:16 AM
someone could be so kind as to show an audio across the pm670? Drums a mix of Buss or any rock band?
would be very interesting to me.
I did not find any audio passed through.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on December 15, 2008, 11:52:21 AM
Supermagoo : you could find audio tests by BerndBrue in the topic "should I ?" IIRC.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SUPERMAGOO on December 15, 2008, 01:16:28 PM
thanks.
already seen that thread.
but do not work the wav's links of analag  :-\

http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PM660-02.wav
http://groupdiy.silentarts.net/pm660/PM660-1.wav
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 15, 2008, 01:26:05 PM
use
http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM660-01.wav
http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM660-02.wav
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SUPERMAGOO on December 15, 2008, 01:51:02 PM
thanks.
Sounds great.
puts the audio firm.
is what I need.
is my next project!

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: giltmastering on December 18, 2008, 07:55:48 AM
boards came in the mail today. thank you so much.
they look amazing.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: gregmartial on December 18, 2008, 06:13:35 PM
please, where can i find the PCB for this project?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 18, 2008, 06:39:42 PM
please, where can i find the PCB for this project?
mhm, only mono is still available:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30131.msg365421#msg365421
but you can build a stereo version from two mono sets with no problem :o
welcome to the forum btw :) :) :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on December 20, 2008, 09:57:20 PM
Hi [silent:arts],

the switch spreadsheet link still not work..


regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on December 20, 2008, 10:58:44 PM
Here's the file in case you are in hurry.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/bmyn2oywntj/LogPotToSwitch.xls
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on December 20, 2008, 11:42:50 PM
http://www.tubesandmore.com/ 

+1

I got mine there and they are definitely ceramic too. just tested them by putting my hot soldering iron on one for a minute.

I don't know how hot the 670 gets (but hopefully will soon.. nearly built!!!) but no melting of the sockets with a direct soldering iron application makes me pretty confident..
:-)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 21, 2008, 05:57:10 AM
I don't know how hot the 670 gets (but hopefully will soon.. nearly built!!!) but no melting of the sockets with a direct soldering iron application makes me pretty confident..

ceramic sockets are fine, plastic sockets will melt for sure

as far as I know we will see some melted socket pics soon :o
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on December 21, 2008, 08:25:15 AM
I have some solens for the 10 uf's on the amp board , one looks
like it is close the a heatsink , i was wondering about that too ?
[ heatwise ]

On another hand when looking at the tube specs , it seemed close to a 12AU7  [ gain of 17 vs 16 ]
To start or in a pinch , this should do , no ?

O.k. don't know what i was thinking other than didn't want to buy them from tube depot
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on December 21, 2008, 11:54:40 AM
A 5687 is no 12AU7 by any means, specs nor pinout.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on December 21, 2008, 08:18:14 PM
http://www.tubesandmore.com/ 

+1

I got mine there and they are definitely ceramic too. just tested them by putting my hot soldering iron on one for a minute.

I don't know how hot the 670 gets (but hopefully will soon.. nearly built!!!) but no melting of the sockets with a direct soldering iron application makes me pretty confident..
:-)


Are these the ones.
P-ST9-217
(http://www.tubesandmore.com/cemirror/inv/P-ST9-217.GIF)

http://www.tubesandmore.com/
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: no-fi on December 21, 2008, 10:33:04 PM
nope - this one.

http://www.tubesandmore.com/scripts/foxweb.dll/[email protected]:/dfs/elevclients/cemirror/ELEVATOR.FXP?item=P-ST9-222
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on December 22, 2008, 11:55:04 AM
Ceramic is ceramic is ceramic. If it's ceramic and it fits the board, you're in business.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Mrosso on December 25, 2008, 09:01:35 PM
Anyone try one of these for the rotary switches? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=280296329471
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on December 26, 2008, 04:54:03 AM
Anyone try one of these for the rotary switches? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=280296329471

Looking good. Chinese build but it gonna work nice  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on December 26, 2008, 05:09:07 AM
Hi,
these switches are the Uraltones which I used in my PM670 as well. Good quality for a very good price.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on December 26, 2008, 11:38:57 PM
Hello, I wired my rotary switches (Uraltone) like that above :) but I'm just confused in one thing... the CCW's resistor in the switch is the one with the lowest value, isn't it? mine is: rotary's pin 1 -> 178R (CCW) to the last 1.62k (full CW)... it's explained in Volker's xls file to calculate the values, I know, but just to be sure!

Cheers,

Eddie.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on December 27, 2008, 04:34:14 AM
... the CCW's resistor in the switch is the one with the lowest value, isn't it?
yes
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on December 27, 2008, 08:15:16 AM
Thanks Volker ;)

Eddie
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on January 01, 2009, 11:21:26 AM
Hey Folks,

Happy New Year! Part of my resolution is to complete some of the projects lying around, the PM660 being one of them and am on my way now...

I have a quick question in that I'm wondering how specific the values of a couple of the resistors need to be? On recommendation of another member I went with the ¼ Watt Metal Film Resistors in place of the 1/2W's but am finding it hard to find the following values locally.

475R, 121K, 182K, 221K

How critical all these values? They seem to have been chosen for good reason, problem is here the closest I can get is 480R, 120K, 180K and 220K... are these acceptable or will I need to try source the specified values?

I know I can just add series resistors to get the exact values, but it will look messy... if I can get away with the rounded down values I'll got that route, if not, anyone have extras of those values I can buy off you?

Also I've noticed the 'newish' regulated heater board for the PM660... since I've already stuffed the PSU board with the Heater section bar the 25W to 50W resistor is it WORTH playing hit of miss finding the right value for this resistor, or better just buying the reg heater board? Any personal experiences from guys having tried both options?

Thanks in advance!

Matt
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 01, 2009, 11:29:15 AM
Happy new year.

take the rounded values.
470R will be even easier to get than 480R.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on January 01, 2009, 11:35:48 AM
Happy new year.

take the rounded values.
470R will be even easier to get than 480R.

Thanks for the heads up Volker!

Cheers

Matt
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on January 01, 2009, 06:24:03 PM
,Happy new year to ya all !!

Hi Matta
If you want I can send you the values you need.Just tell me how many of each?
Igot them from Farnell , they're 0.6W.
Cheers!!
T.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on January 02, 2009, 03:51:14 AM
,Happy new year to ya all !!

Hi Matta
If you want I can send you the values you need.Just tell me how many of each?
Igot them from Farnell , they're 0.6W.
Cheers!!
T.

Hey RedNoise,

Thanks for the offer, it is MUCH appreciated, but in the interim I followed the advice of Volker and just went with the rounded off values. Hopefully all will be well  ;D

Anyone planning on ordering anything from Banzai? Quite keen on getting a pair of the Uraltone 2x24 position switches if anyone wants to help a brother out and piggy back on their order or maybe someone brought extras i can buy off you?

Cheers

Matt
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on January 02, 2009, 05:55:34 AM
Just tryin to help the community as I can !! ;D ;D...Cheers!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 03, 2009, 05:55:20 PM
 ;D Not the prettiest but it does the job ;)

Thanks Analag and Silent art


(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r254/timcyrius/varimu.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 03, 2009, 06:05:00 PM
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r254/timcyrius/Sanstitre.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on January 03, 2009, 06:09:52 PM
wow...Nice front panel Gachet!!!I especially love the DIY graduations/FP layout!!! ;)

Do these sosckets melt down cause of tube's heat ??
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 03, 2009, 06:23:21 PM
Do these sosckets melt down cause of tube's heat ??

Yes  ... scary ,isn't it?

I runned the pm 670 for several mixes before fixing this problem.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on January 04, 2009, 03:28:25 AM
Very lovely box gachet! How did you realize the attack and release controls and how do you like their setup/function?
emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on January 04, 2009, 03:29:58 AM
Yup Gachet .....Inside pics please!!! ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 04, 2009, 04:51:39 AM
cool looking poor man - and tube sockets ;D
(those have been plastic I assume)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 04, 2009, 05:46:29 AM
Hi

The attack control is the normal time constant on a stereo 10K lin pot.
The "so called " release is the suggested bleubird mod:
I've tied a 500k log pot parallel to C4.It results in faster release settings(to my hears)
I can switch it back to original with the "mod" switch to compare.

I have removed the 22k vumeter resistor with no problem.

I've tried 8 rca 6bc8 to find my best sounding quad.

I've tried both schotky and 1n4148 diodes with the dip 8 socket trick .After some audio testing I kept the 1n4148 but this is very subjective.
After the mixing sessions I changed the treshold steps and they are following (in ohms):
1-500 ,2-500 ,3-100 ,4-200 ,5-300 ,6-400 ,7-500 ,8-500 ,9-500 ,10-500 ,11-1000 + 10000 wich is not selectable.
It means that I have control from 14,9K to 10K attenuation for the  treshold.

The input attenuator is basically log steps.

I add a fan for the european transfo wich is heating a lot to me .

That's all.

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r254/timcyrius/Sanstitre2.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on January 04, 2009, 06:27:03 AM
Hi Cyrille,
whow, thats a funky looking unit. I love the orange colour. Did you tie the time constant controls of both channels together? In my unit it´s the rectifier for heater supply that is getting quite hot. Congratulations. Many greetings to France. Bonne annee.
regards
Bernd 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 04, 2009, 06:34:57 AM
Did you tie the time constant controls of both channels together?

All controls(except for input and treshold) are electronically separated but not mechanicaly(I used stereo pots)
Easier for stereo operation but limited in dual mono

I've built it this way to better suit my needs ...(overall mix compression)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 04, 2009, 06:39:26 AM
In my unit it´s the rectifier for heater supply that is getting quite hot.

Mine is a little oversized and I used thermal grease...so no problem
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 07, 2009, 07:59:55 AM
Quote
The attack control is the normal time constant on a stereo 10K lin pot.
The "so called " release is the suggested bleubird mod:
I've tied a 500k log pot parallel to C4.It results in faster release settings(to my hears)
I can switch it back to original with the "mod" switch to compare.
So you left C4 10uf and you just added pot across it to "speed up" a time? 500k/log? Why not linear?
Quote
I've tried both schotky and 1n4148 diodes with the dip 8 socket trick .After some audio testing I kept the 1n4148 but this is very subjective.
So there is some sound change  ;) Good to know, I still didn't tried   :-\
Quote
After the mixing sessions I changed the treshold steps and they are following (in ohms):
1-500 ,2-500 ,3-100 ,4-200 ,5-300 ,6-400 ,7-500 ,8-500 ,9-500 ,10-500 ,11-1000 + 10000 wich is not selectable.
It means that I have control from 14,9K to 10K attenuation for the  treshold.
Did I understood correctly? You turned the pot into tapper with stop value of 10k max 14,9K?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on January 07, 2009, 09:19:03 AM
I add a fan for the european transfo wich is heating a lot to me .
Bonne annee !!!
I'm surprised your transfo can get hot. :o
The EMRR test that closed the too long discussion about regulated or unregulated filament PSU makes me think that the filament can eat a lot more current than they should. Getting hotter the resistance of the filament seam to lower... That would explain the little voltage raise during the test... But that would mean extra-current out of the transfo if you didn't put a high enough resistance...  :-\

Try to know how much current goes through the resistor... It should be 5,2A... If it's more, here is your problem !!! If it's not  ??? ??? ???

Let us know, this is weird and interresting...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on January 07, 2009, 06:52:25 PM
RE: Codered's Avell Lindberg Toroid.

Now that they have arrived I just want to be sure on how to wire it. Here's the colour code.
http://picasaweb.google.com/edcor670/AvelLindbergPM670ToroidalTransformer#

Deciphering this stuff is not my strong point  ::)

Expecialy the primarys I usualy only have 2 wires to worry about.

So far I have worked out.

Orange and White go to the Rectifier
The 2 Black go to AC
Green to Ground
Red and yellow go to AC250 (does it matter which of the two)?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 07, 2009, 10:46:32 PM

So you left C4 10uf and you just added pot across it to "speed up" a time? 500k/log? Why not linear?


Yes.500k log to have some accuracy neer the full short cut of C4.
After that point I prefer the normal mode.


Quote
I've tried both schotky and 1n4148 diodes with the dip 8 socket trick .After some audio testing I kept the 1n4148 but this is very subjective.
So there is some sound change  ;) Good to know, I still didn't tried   :-\


This is just my opinion but I found the pm670 less reactive with schotky.
Maybe less crispy when compressing. :-\


Quote
After the mixing sessions I changed the treshold steps and they are following (in ohms):
1-500 ,2-500 ,3-100 ,4-200 ,5-300 ,6-400 ,7-500 ,8-500 ,9-500 ,10-500 ,11-1000 + 10000 wich is not selectable.
It means that I have control from 14,9K to 10K attenuation for the  treshold.
Did I understood correctly? You turned the pot into tapper with stop value of 10k max 14,9K?

[/quote]

It means that I can't go into extreme compressing values.
1:
The pm 670 is a feedback compressor (the output is feeding the sidechain) so I use it like kind of 1176 (It's a fixed threshold compressor with in and out pots) .
2:
If you increase the threshold the output level is going down.And we don't have make up gain.
So to keep the output loud I prefer to increase input and fine tuning with my 5k threshold.

I did it to suit my very special needs. :)

I add a fan for the european transfo wich is heating a lot to me .
Bonne annee !!!
I'm surprised your transfo can get hot. :o
The EMRR test that closed the too long discussion about regulated or unregulated filament PSU makes me think that the filament can eat a lot more current than they should. Getting hotter the resistance of the filament seam to lower... That would explain the little voltage raise during the test... But that would mean extra-current out of the transfo if you didn't put a high enough resistance...  :-\

Try to know how much current goes through the resistor... It should be 5,2A... If it's more, here is your problem !!! If it's not  ??? ??? ???

Let us know, this is weird and interresting...

I think you're right about current problem but sorry ... I can't measure it right now.
But in fact I had to down the resistor value to raise the voltage from 6.1V to 6.3V.
It result in less current in the heater.I didn't check the heat of the transformer  after that but it must be much safer now with proper voltage.



 

 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on January 07, 2009, 11:10:09 PM
The filament is really quite simple.  A given current at a given voltage.   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on January 08, 2009, 05:07:59 AM
The filament is really quite simple.  A given current at a given voltage.   
Just for fun, I measured the resistance of the filament of a 5687WA... About 2,4 ohm each section meaning 1,2 ohm parraleled... So I'm sure filaments doesn't follow the Ohm's law... Getting hotter their resistance grow... It would be interresting to know how !!!
This doesn't mean unregulated PSU is stupid or... It just explain why unregulated PSU is safe !!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on January 08, 2009, 06:07:03 AM
Just for fun, I measured the resistance of the filament of a 5687WA... About 2,4 ohm each section meaning 1,2 ohm parraleled... So I'm sure filaments doesn't follow the Ohm's law... Getting hotter their resistance grow... It would be interresting to know how !!!

Heaters are very much like light bulbs. So 2,4 ohm is nearly a short circuit when it's cold, but not when it's lit.

Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightbulb section "Electrical characteristics"
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 08, 2009, 06:57:07 AM
Quote
This doesn't mean unregulated PSU is stupid or... It just explain why unregulated PSU is safe !!!
Of course it's not stupid  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on January 09, 2009, 05:19:16 PM
It's looking like I finally have all the parts to put one PM660 together, I am one toroid away from having two done. Here is the preliminary layout, hopefully I am not making any huge mistakes.

Thanks


Howard
(http://www.bobknarley.com/audiodiy/pm660/DSC03429.JPG)

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 09, 2009, 05:30:37 PM
Howard,

is the bottom side of the photo the front panel ?
personally I have all my power on the other side.

anyway, with the slow start heat PSU placed like you have, make sure to connect the regulator (insulated) to the bottom of the case for heatsinking.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on January 09, 2009, 05:42:10 PM
Noted, I can bolt it to the bottom of the case should I also use some heatink compound?
my other question is what value fuse do I need?

thanks

Howard
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kato on January 10, 2009, 08:59:42 AM
Gachet, nice frontpanel!  Handwritten with sharpie looks SHARP! especially on the orange background.
I'm copying off you.  I just wish my handwriting were so nice.

RE: sockets

I ordered ceramics but I knew immediately upon opening the box they were not ceramic.
Anybody having a hard time telling the difference, take a steak knife to them. You will know for sure in a second.

Your picture of melting sockets made me wonder, "what would happen if you just left them in?"
Would it really be a problem? It won't get so hat as to melt your solder connections, right?
Why not let all the plastic melt away into a puddle on the PCB. It will probably sound the same, right?   :P
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 10, 2009, 09:46:31 AM
Quote
Your picture of melting sockets made me wonder, "what would happen if you just left them in?"
One day it will be melted so much that socket will fall apart, and believe me you don't want to "hear" that. There will be no more sound  ;D Avoid plastic sockets  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 10, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
Gachet, nice frontpanel!  Handwritten with sharpie looks SHARP! especially on the orange background.
I'm copying off you.  I just wish my handwriting were so nice.
???
ok but write "threshold" and not "treshold" like I did ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 10, 2009, 10:27:52 AM
Gachet, nice frontpanel!  Handwritten with sharpie looks SHARP! especially on the orange background.
I'm copying off you.  I just wish my handwriting were so nice.
???
ok but write "threshold" and not "treshold" like I did ;D
hehe, pardon my French  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Gachet on January 10, 2009, 05:47:12 PM
Gachet, nice frontpanel!  Handwritten with sharpie looks SHARP! especially on the orange background.
I'm copying off you.  I just wish my handwriting were so nice.
???
ok but write "threshold" and not "treshold" like I did ;D
hehe, pardon my French  ;)
`
 :D It's not you're french...it's my english I made this mistake on my front panel...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on January 10, 2009, 10:03:46 PM
Ok I'm considering getting a custom toroid made for the pm670 from a place here in Ireland. Going from the toroids bernbrue had from his group buy:       
      Prim: 2x115V  yellow-white / yellow-white
      Sek.1: 250V/0,2A
      Sek.2: 9V/6,0A
      Sek.3: 2x15V/2x1,00A
      tx shielding
I presume these specs are exactly what I need? Those toroids were 134VA, is there any point in me getting slightly higher than this?
Oh and possibly a stupid question, but is a 2x115V primary necessary or would a single 220V be okay?

Thanks!
Rob

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on January 11, 2009, 03:53:57 AM
I presume these specs are exactly what I need? Those toroids were 134VA, is there any point in me getting slightly higher than this?
Oh and possibly a stupid question, but is a 2x115V primary necessary or would a single 220V be okay?

Of course you can use a Toroid with more Power but you don´t need to.
A single 220V prim is ok as long as you don´t use it in the US where you would need the 115V primaries.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 11, 2009, 05:29:56 AM
Quote
A single 220V prim is ok as long as you don´t use it in the US where you would need the 115V primaries.
You can add two primaries 220/230v and that will cover the most mains in Europe. I always do like that because ,mains varies from winter to summer in my area  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on January 11, 2009, 09:53:08 AM
Thanks guys!
I'm just trying to think what will be cheapest ;)
But I might end up stretching for multi tapped primaries. The mains where I am are pretty stable. I don't see the unit ever going to america but I might go for a 230V tap as well as the 220V.

Thanks again!
Rob
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 11, 2009, 10:15:18 AM
U welcome  :) BTW, check with dimensions of possibly bigger transformer. It's possible that will occupy a important part of space in the box  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on January 13, 2009, 07:21:53 AM
whats the maths for working out the heater res ? I have not done this before not very good on the theory side of stuff.

regards

skal

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 13, 2009, 09:05:12 AM
It's based on the Ohm's law but you have to know exact heater consumption. Why you bother with that? It's much easier to go with regulated heater supply http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30642.0
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on January 13, 2009, 09:14:57 AM
Or if you don't want it regulated use something like this for R15, that emrr suggested to me(thanks again!):
http://ie.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=ecf2eIk0DojJWcSH%252bYlZdg==

Rob
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on January 13, 2009, 12:05:05 PM
Hey,
Just a quick question: I bought from banzai 4 ceramic's sockets and 4 Plastic ones for my PM670' tubes. Is important that all the tubes mounted on the ceramic ones or the 68C8 gets that hot too?? I just realize I bought the ceramic ones only for the 5687 ones...
Thanks for the help!

Eddie  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on January 13, 2009, 06:32:23 PM
RE: Codered's Avell Lindberg Toroid.

Now that they have arrived I just want to be sure on how to wire it. Here's the colour code.
http://picasaweb.google.com/edcor670/AvelLindbergPM670ToroidalTransformer#

Deciphering this stuff is not my strong point  ::)

Expecialy the primarys I usualy only have 2 wires to worry about.

So far I have worked out.

Orange and White go to the Rectifier
The 2 Black go to AC
Green to Ground
Red and yellow go to AC250 (does it matter which of the two)?


 ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on January 15, 2009, 11:59:47 PM
Hey, could anyone help me with this above? please.. is just a question!
Thankssss

Eddie  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: matta on January 16, 2009, 01:15:28 AM
Hey,
Just a quick question: I bought from banzai 4 ceramic's sockets and 4 Plastic ones for my PM670' tubes. Is important that all the tubes mounted on the ceramic ones or the 68C8 gets that hot too?? I just realize I bought the ceramic ones only for the 5687 ones...
Thanks for the help!

Eddie  ;D


Quote
Hey, could anyone help me with this above? please.. is just a question!
Thankssss

Eddie,

Just put in ALL ceramics... why not? Do you REALLY want to being desoldering a plastic, melted socket from a Double Sided PCB just to save a few bucks? Time and time again it has been stated here that ceramic sockets are to be used. There, question answered.... look at the pics in this thread of what this valves do to plastic sockets... and that was over a SHORT time span... what about 10-15 years from now under daily use? Ceramic, ceramic, ceramic ;D

Matt
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on January 16, 2009, 03:16:03 AM
Hey, could anyone help me with this above? please.. is just a question!
Thankssss

Eddie  ;D

My PM670 is working now, and I can say :
Definitively ceramic sockets everywhere !!! All the tubes are getting really hot !!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on January 17, 2009, 08:44:40 AM
Hey thanks ;) I just asked because I order only 4 ceramic sockets... cause I already have some plastic ones hanging arround!
ok ok ok ok ok ok... I'll order all ceramic!

Thankssssss :)
Cheers,

Eddie  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 17, 2009, 09:12:03 AM
Quote from: SaMpLeGoD
I'll order all ceramic!
you won't regret it ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on January 18, 2009, 03:17:37 PM
Ok, did it already!

hehehehe... thanks!

Eddie :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on January 18, 2009, 05:38:31 PM
As in the psu  , i can't imagine that a 121k resister would be much different than 120k ,
was it spec'ed that because of the 1% tolerance   or is there really a design reason ?

this thread could almost use it's own xfmr questions thread [ and or a good cleaning ,
still working through it to gather parts , thanks ]
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on January 18, 2009, 09:05:50 PM
was there ever a slow starter psu hookup diagram ever posted?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 19, 2009, 07:23:59 AM
was there ever a slow starter psu hookup diagram ever posted?
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.800
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on January 19, 2009, 03:04:16 PM
do I hook up the slow start psu to the heater inputs on the PSU660 board and put a jumper in place of R5
15?
Also are the in's and out's of the slow start PSU polarized?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 19, 2009, 06:11:39 PM
sorry Knarleybass, I'm a little bit bussy at the moment :'(

- just go from the (off board) rectifier to the AC IN of the slow start PCB. no need for the heater circuit on the PSU660.
- GND goes to your star ground
- input right side should be the + from the rectifier

hope this helps
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on January 19, 2009, 06:36:08 PM
RE: Codered's Avell Lindberg Toroid.

Now that they have arrived I just want to be sure on how to wire it. Here's the colour code.
http://picasaweb.google.com/edcor670/AvelLindbergPM670ToroidalTransformer#

Deciphering this stuff is not my strong point  ::)

Expecialy the primarys I usualy only have 2 wires to worry about.

So far I have worked out.

Orange and White go to the Rectifier
The 2 Black go to AC
Green to Ground
Red and yellow go to AC250 (does it matter which of the two)?


 ;D
:-*
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on January 22, 2009, 04:08:58 PM
Matta touched on it , but  [ and more so where the power supply
is concerned ]
Is it better to get the 1% resister values or the 1/2w
if i can't find the both in one part ?

tia
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on January 23, 2009, 09:01:46 AM
I'm not at all familiar with all the high current regulator options out there, but I was wondering...

the slow start heater regulator can't handle enough current for 2 channel operation. Why wasn't a better suited regulator selected for this task? Why wasn't it designed so that it would handle the current for 2 channels?

Seems a bit counter productive to have two of them side by side.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on January 23, 2009, 09:25:49 AM
I believe it was made for more than just the 660
 but also for people who only wanted mono

seems most versitile option , no ?

anybofy answer  which is preferable 1% or 1/2 w ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on January 23, 2009, 10:06:25 AM
I believe it was made for more than just the 660
 but also for people who only wanted mono

seems most versitile option , no ?

well, no.

most versatile would have been a design that caters for all those three options (mono, stereo, other). Now that I look at it, I believe Moby only wanted it for his mono channel, hence he didn't bother with more exhaustive design.

Wish I had the skills for an update. Only like 0.5A more juice needed there.

anybofy answer  which is preferable 1% or 1/2 w ?

Well you could have both. 0.6W 1% resistors are almost as cheap as 0.25W 1% these days.

Example:

http://www.banzaieffects.com/10k-MF-0-25W-pr-17053.html
http://www.banzaieffects.com/10k-RES-0-6W-pr-27506.html

They (or Farnell) pretty much have all sizes. Although Farnell forces you to buy bags of 50 most of the time (which is still dirt cheap at 3euros)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on January 23, 2009, 10:12:53 AM
Most versatile is an adjustable tap resistor.  ;D  Meets the KISS test, unlikely to ever fail, and has stood the test of time for many many decades. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on January 23, 2009, 10:23:28 AM
Most versatile is an adjustable tap resistor.  ;D  Meets the KISS test, unlikely to ever fail, and has stood the test of time for many many decades. 

I realise that, and have done solely that in the past. But since I've already invested so heavily in other areas of the compressor, I thought I'd fix this one as well.

Let's see,

feedback/feedforward and midside selection,
highly tweakable time constant networks (by me, and not the useless 25-second release legacy stuff from fairchild) with some "automatics" involved ie. parallel/serial network combos.

I'll probably end up replacing at least the input trafos as well.

Thought I'd make this less of an oven and more a highly tweakable all-around compressor. The somewhat-poorman.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on January 23, 2009, 10:37:20 AM
I'm in Canada and it was that i couldn't easily find 1 % AND 1/2w
in the right values .

Have you checked out the " pimping the 660 " thread ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on January 23, 2009, 10:39:47 AM
Have you checked out the " pimping the 660 " thread ?

of course I have. and will contribute as soon as I find the time to finish this.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 23, 2009, 01:17:29 PM
most versatile would have been a design that caters for all those three options (mono, stereo, other). Now that I look at it, I believe Moby only wanted it for his mono channel, hence he didn't bother with more exhaustive design.

Wish I had the skills for an update. Only like 0.5A more juice needed there.
it is not like 0.5A more juice ...
5A is the limit of the regulator, but we don't want to come even close to the limit.
a little bit over the half is fine and save.
for sure there are regulators (and PSUs) which can handle a higher current, but they are much more expensive and / or more complicated to handle.
some people are asking for a wiring guide for this heater PSU, which is just two wires in / two wires out.
how should they handle - lets say - a regulator with off board mounted TO3 cases ?

the schematic Moby provided is just the right solution for this application, and two of this PCBs can be mounted on top of each other with the regulators connected to the back of the chassis (insulated of course).

just my 2 cents
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 23, 2009, 02:29:03 PM
Quote
Now that I look at it, I believe Moby only wanted it for his mono channel, hence he didn't bother with more exhaustive design.
Actually it's possible to use one board for stereo unit but you need a lot of cooling  for LM and as Volker stated you are close to the current limit what's not good idea. I use two boards for stereo unit and it's safe  ;D Also, boards and parts are cheap so there is no problem about two of them.  ;) It's possible to design something similar for more current with adding power transistor but at the end result will be just more parts on one board for about same price as two LM's .About wiring diagram , well it's so simple that figuring out will take less time than drawing  :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: okgb on January 23, 2009, 03:48:44 PM
 some of the TO 220 size devices i can only find with a sufixe
AB , digikey couldn't tell me exactly what specified
anyone here know  ? or know if it matters ?

Also if the heatsinks are not attached to anything ,
then shouldn't need the insulators right ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 23, 2009, 05:37:15 PM
Also if the heatsinks are not attached to anything ,
then shouldn't need the insulators right ?
my rule:
ALWAYS insulate the heatsinks.
you never know, in a few years you want to check and touch the heatsink, and you don't know (or don't remember) what voltage will be there. in the poor man this is up to 250V on some heatsinks.
it is just a security thing, and costs nearly nothing ???
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 23, 2009, 06:14:01 PM
Wiring Guide (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PSUs/HEATPSU-PM660WIRING.pdf) for the PM660 Slow Start PSU
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 24, 2009, 07:23:10 AM
Wiring Guide (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PSUs/HEATPSU-PM660WIRING.pdf) for the PM660 Slow Start PSU
Looking great  :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on January 24, 2009, 11:42:59 AM
I'm not at all familiar with all the high current regulator options out there, but I was wondering...

the slow start heater regulator can't handle enough current for 2 channel operation. Why wasn't a better suited regulator selected for this task? Why wasn't it designed so that it would handle the current for 2 channels?

Seems a bit counter productive to have two of them side by side.
The real problem in the choice of the regulator is to find a regulator able to handle 5,2A out. I don't know any (but they maybe exist  ;D). The LM350T or LM338 are only able to handle one PM channel but they are easy to find and are both pin compatible and the board can fit the two certainly without any mod...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 24, 2009, 01:53:59 PM
Quote
The real problem in the choice of the regulator is to find a regulator able to handle 5,2A out
LM338 can handle that but with serious cooling. Inside PM660 is so much heat ,so it's much safer to go with two regulators.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on January 24, 2009, 07:11:13 PM
Quote
TRIMMERS
(how they are set in analags unit)
got this news via eMail:

Quote from: "analag"
RV3 is adjusted to -2.4V and RV6 is set to -4.5V

-2.4V and -4.5V DC isn't it?

Eddie ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: joe-electro on January 24, 2009, 08:30:29 PM
Anybody ever used this device before? Looks like it might fit this application.

http://www.datasheet4u.com/html/L/M/3/LM396_NationalSemiconductor.pdf.html

---Joe

Quote
The real problem in the choice of the regulator is to find a regulator able to handle 5,2A out
LM338 can handle that but with serious cooling. Inside PM660 is so much heat ,so it's much safer to go with two regulators.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on January 25, 2009, 01:13:58 AM
Hey, sorry my dumb previous post! as long as -AC voltage doesn't exists... of course is DC voltage... damn

Cheers,

Eddie  ::)

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on January 25, 2009, 03:13:44 AM
Anybody ever used this device before? Looks like it might fit this application.

http://www.datasheet4u.com/html/L/M/3/LM396_NationalSemiconductor.pdf.html

---Joe

Quote
The real problem in the choice of the regulator is to find a regulator able to handle 5,2A out
LM338 can handle that but with serious cooling. Inside PM660 is so much heat ,so it's much safer to go with two regulators.
This regulator seams to suit better the needs indeed... It's a real 10A...

LM338 can handle that but with serious cooling. Inside PM660 is so much heat ,so it's much safer to go with two regulators.
Yes, you're right (Iout = f (Vout-Vin)) but I always limit myself to the first data sheets specs... I consider them as the real maximum you can expect... LM338 is meant to be a 5A regulator, I won't try to pump more than than 5A... But you right, it should be able to handle the current of a PM670  ;)...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 25, 2009, 05:20:07 AM
Quote
Anybody ever used this device before? Looks like it might fit this application.

http://www.datasheet4u.com/html/L/M/3/LM396_NationalSemiconductor.pdf.html

---Joe
As far as I know LM396 is discontinued device. Again, go with LM338 dual boards and be happy. At last you can go with cheaper TO220 version but ensure some cooling .  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on January 26, 2009, 11:39:10 PM
Is "2 x (optional) Electrolytic, min 250V, max ø 12mm" a reference to the 2 unmarked caps next to the power connections on the PM660 board?  I assume so, based on the few other Q&A's about them.  I measured  2.5 or 5mm lead spacing for both positions.  

Voltage is obvious from the B+ rails.  Benefits from adding substantial extra capacitance is the question for everyone to consider.  They are simply in parallel with the 100 mfd PSU caps exiting the PSU, so it's simply a matter of physical placement.

This very basic electronics question might have been answered elsewhere on the forum, but I could not find it by searching...

I realise adding those extra caps will have a benefit of removing some ripple, if there still is any at that point,

but can there be any negative (parasitic or otherwise) effects of adding them in?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on January 27, 2009, 02:35:22 PM
I'm almost done with my PM670, or maybe not as there seems to be a problem with the heater voltage. I'm using Volker's slow start PSU.  Without the tubes I can dial in a perfect 6,3V  but after placing the tubes the voltage drops and I cant set it any higher than 4.3V.

Any idea if I should be looking at the the slow start PSU or at the PM itself?

Is 4.3 way too low anyway? The tubes seem to glow alright...

Cheers!

G
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 27, 2009, 02:50:57 PM
as far as I know bernbrues first prototype still works with 4.3V ;D

what PST transformer do you use ?
do you use one slow start PSU each channel ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on January 27, 2009, 03:04:55 PM
5,3V ;D
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on January 27, 2009, 03:14:04 PM
Yes I'm using 2 slow starter PSU's. Just hooked up the second channel.  3.9V  :(

Weird.

I'm using the trafo from Bernd's group buy by the way.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on January 27, 2009, 03:50:32 PM
- does the voltage regulator gets hot ?
- measure the current between the slow start PSU and each PM660 PCB
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on January 28, 2009, 06:51:26 AM
- does the voltage regulator gets hot ?

Very. They're both bolted to the chassis (insulated of course) and the screws are too hot to touch.

Not sure with what you mean by measuring the current between the SloStart PSU and PM660 pcb.  (noob here  :o ) From which point to which?

The unit does work by the way. Not sure what the effect of such low heater voltages would be on the sound?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on January 28, 2009, 07:09:42 AM
Quote
Not sure with what you mean by measuring the current between the SloStart PSU and PM660 pcb.  (noob here   ) From which point to which?
You have to insert the ampermeter between Slostart and PM660 and measure. Than we will know where is the problem  :)
Here's the little explanation about how to measure current  ;)
http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/test-methods/meters/how-to-measure-current.php
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on January 28, 2009, 08:25:13 AM
Thanks Moby!  (I recalled something like "in series" for current, but I wasn't sure)

Any way: It's 3,8A for each channel.

The second channel has a problem with audio as well. Very faint and hi-passed sound. Channel one is fine. Tried swapping tubes and heater PSU, but that did not matter.  We'll get there  ;D

Oh, and by way: be careful to connect all wires again before powering on. (forgot threshold and had to replace R10 which immediately passed away  :'( ) 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: pH on February 01, 2009, 02:28:13 AM
Finally getting close to testing, I'm wiring it up on a piece of plywood since I still don't have a case.

One question: since I'm not wiring this for keeps I'd like to only do one channel for now. I know the heater resistor will have to be adjusted for mono, but can I fire up just one channel on the PSU even though it has the IRF840 soldered in?

-paul
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 01, 2009, 04:22:07 AM
Paul, no problem - fire it up
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 01, 2009, 02:23:39 PM
I am having metering  problems with my poorman and I'm wondering if someone can help.

I've put in some old Honeywell vu meters which apparently have higher internal resistance than modern ones.

The parallel resistance needed for it to go to 0vu with no gain reduction is approximately 64 Ohms.

Unfortunately it is too sensitive. The Vu meter value changes when fiddling around with controls when no input signal is applied. (even the other channels controls affect it)

Is there a possible solution to this problem? Unfortunately I have already drilled holes for the mentioned meter.

Thanks,
Nikos

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: shabtek on February 01, 2009, 02:34:26 PM
noulou; maybe a trimpot R in series or an adjustable voltage divider to drop the sensitivity.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 02, 2009, 07:14:36 AM
Quote
Is there a possible solution to this problem? Unfortunately I have already drilled holes for the mentioned meter.
If you can see inside meter there is for sure some resistance network or just one resistor. Try to play with that  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 02, 2009, 08:11:59 AM
Thanks shabtek, Moby,

Unfortunately the meter is completely sealed.

I put a 10k trim in series. didn't help. I do not know where to go next really.  :-[

perhaps a buffer would help?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 02, 2009, 08:58:41 AM
Quote
Thanks shabtek, Moby,

Unfortunately the meter is completely sealed.

I put a 10k trim in series. didn't help. I do not know where to go next really. 

perhaps a buffer would help?
I mentioned many times that VU is connected as DC miliampermeter in this project and it's not "just connect any VU" because ist's connected in series of supply. I doubt that buffer will help in this situation. I'm afraid that you will have to check inside the meter  :P  Or to "rescale" zero db... BTW, I'm sure that you must "rescale" (to draw a new scale) if you want to have a real meter values  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 02, 2009, 09:35:12 AM
Would it be better to stick the vu meters at the cathodes of the 6BC8s?

pin 3 of the 2n6107 via a trimpot to ground?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on February 02, 2009, 11:03:23 AM
I use a vu meter in my PM670... The vu meter is connected to a 3K9 and everything is paralleled to a resistor (or pot) to have 1,27V with no compression... I didn't measure this but it is less than 1K... Tracking is quite good like this... My vu reads -9dB for 10db compression  :)...

perhaps a buffer would help?
A buffer isn't easy to do, the vu is paralleled to a resistor connected to the 130V supply rail.

Would it be better to stick the vu meters at the cathodes of the 6BC8s?
pin 3 of the 2n6107 via a trimpot to ground?
No, no voltage change there... You will only see the polarisation voltage...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 02, 2009, 12:22:02 PM
Quote
I use a vu meter in my PM670...
Which one? Recommended sifam?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on February 02, 2009, 12:39:32 PM
Quote
I use a vu meter in my PM670...
Which one? Recommended sifam?
No, but it's an old Pekly vu meter, 3K6 internal impedance, if I remember well it's the same thing than sifam's specs. There's a build in resistor to reach the classic vu meter spec that isn't connected. In my Pekly it's a 3K9, but I'm sure a 3K6 will do fine ( maybe here is my 1 dB error  ::)). I did use it just because it was simple and because I was afraid to burn it. With the pot paralleled, I've got the 0 vu adjust.
Title: Power Supply Fault
Post by: rrs on February 05, 2009, 06:02:59 PM
Well I've finally buily my PM670.  ;D

Switched on the 240V and began testing voltages. I currently have nothing connected to the PSU.

Anyway I have identified two problems. And my DIY luck has been going so well since my first buit too.

OK when testing for +17V and -17v on the two pin connector pin 1 has +23 but trim won't adjust voltage up or down.
Pin two has no Voltage.

The connectors out next to it seem fine I am getting +23V / - 23V but of course neither trim resistor is adjusting these voltages.

All other mesurements seem fine.

Have checked for solder bridges. Any advice on where to start looking would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Power Supply Fault
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 05, 2009, 06:59:07 PM
OK when testing for +17V and -17v on the two pin connector pin 1 has +23 but trim won't adjust voltage up or down.
Pin two has no Voltage.

The connectors out next to it seem fine I am getting +23V / - 23V but of course neither trim resistor is adjusting these voltages
the two pin connector pin1 is +, pin two is GND - it is fine what you are measuring there.
you have only one problem: why your trimmers don't work ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on February 05, 2009, 07:33:59 PM
Any advice on where to start looking would be greatly appreciated.

Stupid questions  ;D ;D ;D :
Are the regulators mounted insulated ?
Are you sure you didn't put a LM317 instead a LM117 and so a LM117 instead a LM317 ?

This kind of things happen... I remember the last time I soldered an electrolytic the wrong way  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 05, 2009, 10:03:48 PM
Any advice on where to start looking would be greatly appreciated.

Stupid questions  ;D ;D ;D :
Are the regulators mounted insulated ?
Are you sure you didn't put a LM317 instead a LM117 and so a LM117 instead a LM317 ?

This kind of things happen... I remember the last time I soldered an electrolytic the wrong way  :'( :'( :'(



Haa Haaa no there not stupid questions when there aimed at stupid people.  ;D

But yes they are insulated and I am positive without having it in front of me they are the correct ones (Have re checked my mouser order though)



I guess my only problem is the trimmers arn't trimming. Could this only be from the trimmer being faulty or installed wrong or are there other possible factors here.
This is the trimmer I used:
 http://au.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=3296Y-1-502LFvirtualkey65210000virtualkey652-3296Y-1-502LF

(http://au.mouser.com/images/bourns/images/3296.jpg)
Multi-Turn Trimmer Potentiometers 3/8" 5Kohms Sealed Vertical Adjust

They are installed with the middle leg being in a triangular formation ie... not all 3 in a row. the trim adjusters are at the Toroidal input end.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: klaus2you on February 06, 2009, 01:32:55 AM
rrs, regarding your trimmers; keep turning them , i had the same impression first but after LOTS of turns they finaly starts to reacts!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Brolik on February 06, 2009, 12:52:36 PM
yea, I learned from my seventh circles that sometimes you gotta keep turning.  He says in the build instructions 25 times counter clockwise and it will start clicking when you turn.  Then you know you're at 0
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 06, 2009, 10:32:00 PM
Thanks guys your right. It took a few turns just to register a change. I was worried because I have had a faulty power PSU in the past and kept turning till a resistor blew.
Anyway Voltages on PSU and main board are good.

Now for the resistor R15. As I have a stereo version I noticed earlier that 1R is an estimate.
I tried a .86R and measured 5.12V at the heater connector on PSU board. .86R measured 5.21V and .33R is measuring 5.71
I am assuming I may need to go down to .15R should this be right.

I am measuring with everything connected and from the connector on the PSU out named heater (the end one). Does this sound correct.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 07, 2009, 05:17:28 AM
Quote
Now for the resistor R15. As I have a stereo version I noticed earlier that 1R is an estimate.
I tried a .86R and measured 5.12V at the heater connector on PSU board. .86R measured 5.21V and .33R is measuring 5.71
I am assuming I may need to go down to .15R should this be right.
What voltage you measure without tubes? BTW it's possible that PSU transformer is saturating .If it's not too hot go ahead  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 07, 2009, 06:10:22 AM
I'm getting 13.5V with nothing connected to the PSU Board and a .33R resistor at R15.
With everything connected with valves in it's 5.84V at my last measurement.

No excessive heat coming from my Avil Lindberg Toroid.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 07, 2009, 06:31:52 AM
Try tp measure heater current .If it's normal, than must be that TX is dropping the voltage.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 07, 2009, 07:19:44 AM
OK not sure if I have measured this right but 8.2A DC is what I thing I have.This is mesured at the end  (Heater) pin PSU Board output
The output voltage of the transformer measured before it gets to the Heater rectifier is 8.95V.

These are measured under load.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 07, 2009, 08:10:54 AM
Quote
OK not sure if I have measured this right but 8.2A DC is what I thing I have.
There is something wrong with tubes or smoothing cap is leaky. It should be around 5.2A for stereo unit.Try to measure without tubes . It should be zero. Than if it is 0  try to disconnect one channel , and figure out is the consumption same on both channels. It can be that some of tube is shorting filament. Hope this helps  ::)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 07, 2009, 11:07:02 AM
RRS meant volts, not amps, I'm pretty sure. 

Sounds right to me, you just need a smaller dropping resistor. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 07, 2009, 11:42:39 AM
RRS meant volts, not amps, I'm pretty sure. 

Sounds right to me, you just need a smaller dropping resistor. 
Well, if you right that he measured voltage than it's OK  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 07, 2009, 05:56:17 PM
I did mean Amps but I'm sure I've measured it wrong.
I haven't used my multimeter to measure Amps before. It say's to measure in series and I'm not sure what they mean by that.( Where to connect the two probes).
I just tried measuring with one probe connected to Heater pin and one to ground and got a spark so I'll give up on that till I find how to do it properly.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 07, 2009, 06:20:54 PM
that shorts the filament to ground!   Disconnect the filament wiring from the supply, and put the meter in series.  In other words, use the meter (in the correct range setting!) as the wire from supply to filaments. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 07, 2009, 06:31:47 PM
I posted this link about measuring current, but here it is again. http://www.electronics-radio.com/articles/test-methods/meters/how-to-measure-current.php  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: casrec on February 08, 2009, 03:37:50 AM
hello all,
   I'm sure it has already been posted, but 51 pages is a lot to search through. Anyways, can someone please tell me what the average cost is to but a 660 together. Also, i just put together a mnats 1176 with relative ease, is the 660 something a beginner should be able to tackle? Thanks everyone!

Brandon
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 08, 2009, 04:55:38 AM
that shorts the filament to ground!   Disconnect the filament wiring from the supply, and put the meter in series.  In other words, use the meter (in the correct range setting!) as the wire from supply to filaments. 

Thanks for all the help guys.

OK I have measured current with the two PCB's connected at 4.72A. With just the single boards both measured 2.92A exactly each.

I think this may be too low. 5.2 Amps was mentions earlier.
Or is this acceptable if not what action should I take to rectify this?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 08, 2009, 06:18:06 AM
It seems exactly like I mentioned before. Voltage drops on the transformer sec. And yes, filament current is exact like it has to be. You have 8.2V in front of the resistor and 5.71V after.Current is 4.72A. For 9V in front of resistor you will have 6.3V , 5.2A  ;).
Try to change your resistor and pray that filament winding will "survive" . BTW, do you have voltage drop on other sec. windings when you connect filament supply? If not, than go ahead.  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 08, 2009, 11:57:17 AM
5.2A is correct draw at 6.3V.  You have less voltage.  Lower R15 value, voltage goes up, current goes up.    R15 eats power, you need less power eaten.  Both supply and load are relative constants.  The power transformer is rated to deliver 9VAC at 6A AC.   10.2VAC at no load.   This assumes 115 or 230 VAC on the primary; confirm primary voltage first and measure sec AC again.   Looks like you are supposed to be on 240VAC/50 Hz there?  The filament winding is rated for 6A, so it will have no problem surviving unless it's actually bad.   Did you confirm zeroish current between the rectifier and the first cap with no tubes in?  Check AC and DC current.  You mentioned 13.5V with no load connected to the PSU board; that's clearly higher than the transformer 'no load' rating of 10.2VAC.   

I think the average cost for a PM660 is probably $600+. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 09, 2009, 07:02:44 AM
Well guys I have made some more measurements which have really left me scratching my head.
So here they are:

With boards not attached
Pin 1 Heater = 14V
Pin 2 Heater = 0V
Pin 3 245V = 401V
Pin 4 136V = 218V
Pin 5 -17V = 17.12 (Trimmed)
Pin 6 Ground
Pin 7 +17V = +12.08 (Trimmed)

With 2 Boards attached
Pin 1 Heater = 6.03V
Pin 2 Heater = 0V
Pin 3 245V = 311V
Pin 4 136V = 169V
Pin 5 -17V = 17.12 (Trimmed)
Pin 6 Ground
Pin 7 +17V = +12.08 (Trimmed)

This don't look good does it  :'(

Could I have the Toroid wired wrong?
The funny thing is that I measured 136V the other day and it was only a couple of volts out I'm sure. Also the Pin Heater is measuring higher although this could be due to power fluctuation.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 09, 2009, 09:54:03 AM
Coming along nicely

(http://www.kiwistudio.gr/poorman/poorman_guts.jpg)


Do not ask me to comment on the sound though yet. I have some issues to iron out.

Namely some low-level buzzing, the vu meters issue...

I think I will also mod it for a  couple quicker release times at the first time constant steps. Attack is fast enough for me.

Heater resistor in mine is 0.33R. I also have a 6.3V lamp on my front panel also though.


When I have it proper up and running I'll post some clips.

BIG thanks to everyone involved in making this happen for us.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on February 09, 2009, 10:14:04 AM
Can you make one for me?.....good job.

analag
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 09, 2009, 10:25:46 AM
Looks great  :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 09, 2009, 11:02:35 AM
 :)

Thanks for the kind words.

Here's the seriously good looking purusha case also.
My apologies for the crap photography.

(http://www.kiwistudio.gr/poorman/poorman_front.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 09, 2009, 11:55:59 AM
Well guys I have made some more measurements which have really left me scratching my head.
So here they are:

With boards not attached
Pin 1 Heater = 14V
Pin 2 Heater = 0V
Pin 3 245V = 401V
Pin 4 136V = 218V
Pin 5 -17V = 17.12 (Trimmed)
Pin 6 Ground
Pin 7 +17V = +12.08 (Trimmed)

With 2 Boards attached
Pin 1 Heater = 6.03V
Pin 2 Heater = 0V
Pin 3 245V = 311V
Pin 4 136V = 169V
Pin 5 -17V = 17.12 (Trimmed)
Pin 6 Ground
Pin 7 +17V = +12.08 (Trimmed)

This don't look good does it  :'(

Could I have the Toroid wired wrong?
The funny thing is that I measured 136V the other day and it was only a couple of volts out I'm sure. Also the Pin Heater is measuring higher although this could be due to power fluctuation.

WHAT PRIMARY AC VOLTAGE WAS PRESENT WITH THESE MEASUREMENTS?

How are the primary windings connected? 

Are we still considering 0.33R for R15?

Note that C1 and C3 in the PSU are possibly at the limits of rating with nothing connected; depends on what you used. 

The only thing you could possibly do wrong in toroid wiring, and get anything similar to normal voltage ranges, would be to have the wrong primary connection.  Anything else would have probably started a fire.  You have correct ranges present, though not correct voltages for B+.   +/-17 seems proper regulation.  I can't address B+ other than to say check that all parts values are correct in each position.  It would certainly help if someone having a normally operating unit would post voltage measurements within the PSU (and audio), for troubleshooting purposes; a list of junctions and measured voltages.  Mine isn't up and running to check yet.   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 09, 2009, 02:10:26 PM
My primarys are:
brown to IEC 1
blue to IEC 2
Grey and Purple tied together (does that mean they should be connected together)?

I am still using .33 at R15.

I will re check all values soon.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 09, 2009, 02:20:04 PM
Sounds right for 230 VAC primary connection.  You are on 240V 50 Hz there, right?  So you will see slightly higher voltages because of that. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 09, 2009, 04:20:02 PM
I got an email with questions from klaus2you. I'm posting the answer here for anyone else having the same problems.

Quote
I also finished my poor man in purusha case last night but have issue i need to fix, vu meter also, put a 4k trim and didn't help. Could you please tell me how you wire your time constant 2x 6 lorlin because i think i fuct up there, just unsure of the connection between the board and the lorlin (+,-,ground).


the problem with my vu meter is that it has too high internal resistance.
In the circuit the vu meter is in parallel with R6, a 22K resistor.

you can calculate parallel resistances using this:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-paralresist.htm)

In mine I had to substitute R6 with a 68 Ohm resistor in order for the current flowing through them to be normal.

If your meter is pegging to the right you should also try a smaller value R6.

The attack switch is wired as follows:

At the pcb connector, the left leg goes to fully cw at the switch. (end of resistor network)
The middle one goes to the wiper.
Right one goes fully ccw. (start of resistor network)

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 09, 2009, 05:28:05 PM
Sounds right for 230 VAC primary connection.  You are on 240V 50 Hz there, right?  So you will see slightly higher voltages because of that. 
Yes we run on 240V. I here it's more 250V. The day I initialy tested the unit we had terrible bushfires and was the hottest day in history here in Melbourne so voltages then may have been off due to excess power consumption. The latest mesurement should be more normal.

So are you saying the 401V and 218V I am getting is are ok ?

I have visualy checked everything and seems the board's components are correct.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 09, 2009, 05:52:54 PM
Yes we run on 240V. I here it's more 250V. The day I initialy tested the unit we had terrible bushfires and was the hottest day in history here in Melbourne so voltages then may have been off due to excess power consumption. The latest mesurement should be more normal.

So are you saying the 401V and 218V I am getting is are ok ?

I don't have one to measure, so I can't say.  I would think something is not right in the B+ chain since you are getting too high readings with load.    Even up to 250 VAC input, the 14V at no filament load is higher than rated.   We need a comparative measurement from another known working unit with this toroid. 

Hey, you haven't said if it's passing sound in both channels.  You might as well listen since it should have already caught fire if it was prone to do so. 

The fires sound terrible, the death toll unimaginable.  I hope you and yours are not directly affected. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 09, 2009, 06:16:22 PM
Us city dwellers are OK Doug but still distressing knowing there not that far away.

Anyway.
Havn't run audio throught it but not really prepared to keep running it longer than I have to. The Meters (Sifam Vintage ones) though are flat all the way to the right.

I may have to wait to see what others may be doing.

The only thing I couldn't check were the diodes as there a little small to read but are the right way arround. I am very confident I have the right components on and no soldering bridges.Have purchase everything from the BOM on the first page. I thought if I went by the book on this one all would be fine.

All my DIY stuff since my first build works first time so I am feeling something is faulty.





If the guys in US are finding things are OK with 120V than maybe I can try using it that way with a stepdown transformer.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: klaus2you on February 11, 2009, 01:19:02 AM
Noulou, thank you for your reply! It's been really helpfull,  wiring was fine but one of my lorlin was faulty. Regarding the meter i originaly put a 22K trim in place of R6 but was afraid to go so low, but you where right two turn of trimmer after my vu finaly read 0.
For those who used sifam AL20SQ like me, substitute R6 22K with a 47ohm or little higher.

Noulou again, thanks!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 11, 2009, 05:10:55 AM
Just an update.
I have measured the Voltages coming from my Avil Lindburg toroid:  http://picasaweb.google.com/edcor670/AvelLindbergPM670ToroidalTransformer#

240V going in Blue and Brown , Violet and grey tied together.

Black  .... 7.32V  .....to AC
Green .... 7.78V  .....to GND
Black ..... 22.4 V  ....to AC
Red ....... 173 V   ....AC 250V
Yellow ....98.3V    ....AC250V
Orange ... 10.9V   ....to Heater Rectifier
White .....1.10V   .....to heater Rectifier

To me this seems very wrong

Con someone who has the same tranni please confirm if they get similar results?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 11, 2009, 10:03:05 AM
Your corrections appear correct by color code, but B+ and +/- 17 appear to have no ground reference, and instead allowed to float above ground.   Check that all ground/B- points are made properly and have nearly zero resistance.   Also confirm you have 30ish VAC from black to black.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 11, 2009, 05:13:48 PM
Just an update.
I have measured the Voltages coming from my Avil Lindburg toroid:  http://picasaweb.google.com/edcor670/AvelLindbergPM670ToroidalTransformer#

240V going in Blue and Brown , Violet and grey tied together.

Black  .... 7.32V  .....to AC
Green .... 7.78V  .....to GND
Black ..... 22.4 V  ....to AC
Red ....... 173 V   ....AC 250V
Yellow ....98.3V    ....AC250V
Orange ... 10.9V   ....to Heater Rectifier
White .....1.10V   .....to heater Rectifier

To me this seems very wrong

Con someone who has the same tranni please confirm if they get similar results?

I forgot to mention these mesurements are with no load. According to the winding diagram red should be 279 (no loaod), Both Black 17.5 (no load) ect... . Infact only white and Orange seem correct.
Does it indicate the TX is faulty or are my novice skills showing.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on February 11, 2009, 08:36:30 PM
trans doesn't look faulty. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 11, 2009, 10:13:03 PM
Thanks.

So much for being confident I havn't stuffed up. ::)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on February 12, 2009, 04:52:58 AM
David,
the primary connection is allright for 230/240V countries. Could you measure again between red/yellow, should be around 279 VAC no load, orange white 10,2 VAC, green/black 17,5 VAC and between green/other black about the same?
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 12, 2009, 06:10:00 AM
David,
the primary connection is allright for 230/240V countries. Could you measure again between red/yellow, should be around 279 VAC no load, orange white 10,2 VAC, green/black 17,5 VAC and between green/other black about the same?
regards
Bernd

Ok

between Red/Yellow is 294V, Orange/ White is 10.83, Green/ Black 18.65, other Black/Green 18.75.
There a little high I guess but I am assuming it's not the transformer that is causing my problem.

I have meticulously checked that all components are correct .Have used the buzzer on my multimeter to check all ground points are connected and solders joints are good.
Is there any specific components I should check or replace?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on February 12, 2009, 06:59:06 AM
Sounds right to me, you just need a smaller dropping resistor. 

Do you use the extra heater pcb or the heater on the main PSU. If main PSU, bridge one side of heater voltage to ground as shown here:

(http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/heater_to_ground.JPG)
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 12, 2009, 08:23:48 PM
Thanks Bernd

I am using the Heater on the Main PSU.

So can I just run a wire from the Heater Rectifier - connector Pin to Ground Connector Pin that is next to it ?

Will try tonight when I get home. I'm shure what you have circled is not on my PCB. I have notice looking at your build thought that you have something here just can't quite see.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 13, 2009, 02:55:59 AM
... I'm shure what you have circled is not on my PCB...
this jumper is only on rec01 PSU PCBs we used for prototyping.
at rev02 PCBs the minus coming from the rectifier has a fixed connection to ground directly at the screw terminal.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 13, 2009, 04:57:50 AM
thanks Volker.

That I guess in confirmed as I am getting exactly the same measurements. 400V where I should have 245V and 218V where I should have 136V.

I'm at a complete loss here.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 13, 2009, 05:09:54 AM
measure DC to ground from the anode of D8
measure DC to ground from the cathode of D8
any difference ?

do the same with D9 ...

double check if the zener diodes are correct
(D7 & D10)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 13, 2009, 06:54:55 AM
D9 Anode = 392V
D9 Cathode = 211V

D8 Anode = 392V
D8 Cathode = 394V

1n4747 and 1n4764 look to be correct parts. Though they are small I cannot makeout all numbers.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 13, 2009, 08:04:20 AM
Quote
1n4747 and 1n4764 look to be correct parts. Though they are small I cannot makeout all numbers.
I always use magnifying glass to read small diodes  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 13, 2009, 09:28:04 AM
D9 Anode = 392V
D9 Cathode = 211V

D8 Anode = 392V
D8 Cathode = 394V

looks like your first regulator (around Q4) doesn't work
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on February 15, 2009, 01:13:48 PM
hey i just finished stuffing psu ,can i power it up with a load or will this cause damage to the psu


regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 15, 2009, 01:18:00 PM
Just power it up with nothing connected if you want to measure your voltages.

Everything apart from the heater psu is actively regulated.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on February 15, 2009, 01:24:23 PM
hey thanks for the quick response   ;D


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 15, 2009, 05:28:32 PM
D9 Anode = 392V
D9 Cathode = 211V

D8 Anode = 392V
D8 Cathode = 394V

looks like your first regulator (around Q4) doesn't work

Thanks again I will replace this.

This raises another question though.
I initialy mesured 136V on the connector pin where indicated when first powering up and was correct. Didn't mesure 245V.
After doing this I plugged in the two PM660 boards with valves inserted to mesure the requires R15 resistance. I noticed though after doing this that when I turned one of the threshold knobs that I got a spark on the PSU board around this "Q4" general area so am wondering the cause of the IRF820's failure and could it happen again. I am using the greyhyill rotary non-shorting type.
Mfr Part#: 71BD30-02-1-AJN
Allied Stock#: 948-7249

I don't want to have to replace it a second time as removing the first seems to have not been easy for me or on the PCB.

Also R10 330R on both PM660 boards is burnt out I guess due to the incorrect voltages being pummped through it.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on February 15, 2009, 07:50:47 PM
hey i just finished stuffing psu ,can i power it up with a load or will this cause damage to the psu


regards

skal1

Just remember that with no tubes in, the caps will retain the high voltage for a Very long time !!!
BE CAREFUL
MM,
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on February 15, 2009, 07:52:10 PM
What about with tubes IN?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on February 15, 2009, 08:41:35 PM
What about with tubes IN?

Dissipation is a bit quicker with them in but ....... S   L   O   W without !!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Purusha on February 15, 2009, 08:45:26 PM
BTW, how does this unit sound? Haven't had the time to even start mine or read this thread.

Any sound samples out there?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on February 16, 2009, 09:28:51 AM
Thanks again I will replace this.

Quote
This raises another question though.
I initialy mesured 136V on the connector pin where indicated when first powering up and was correct. Didn't mesure 245V.
After doing this I plugged in the two PM660 boards with valves inserted to mesure the requires R15 resistance. I noticed though after doing this that when I turned one of the threshold knobs that I got a spark on the PSU board around this "Q4" general area so am wondering the cause of the IRF820's failure and could it happen again. I am using the greyhyill rotary non-shorting type.
Mfr Part#: 71BD30-02-1-AJN
Allied Stock#: 948-7249

I don't want to have to replace it a second time as removing the first seems to have not been easy for me or on the PCB.

Also R10 330R on both PM660 boards is burnt out I guess due to the incorrect voltages being pummped through it.

Keep in mind, that you should not fire up the PSU with the audio pcbs connected before you have done the complete wiring. I burned R10 several times before I realized that the transformers have to be connected first. So I recommend to measure the PSU voltage without anything connected. Then do the complete wiring including rotary switches or pots and transformers, check everything twice and then fire it up.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 17, 2009, 05:11:51 AM
OK I have replaced IRF820 and things seem a little better.

heater = 14V
254V = 273V
136V = 147V

Still getting 5.9V at Heater under load with .33R at R15.
Will try using .15R.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 17, 2009, 06:21:37 AM
Leave the machine on for more than half an hour with case closed in order to get warm in there.

The filament voltage will probably rise.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: noulou on February 17, 2009, 01:13:18 PM
I'd love some help with a problem I'm experiencing.

I've got a loud buzzing which I'm suspecting it is the 5687 oscillating.

It changes with varying degrees of threshold change and it completely disappears if I touch the heater B- on the pcb connector with a metal part. (for example metal pliers)

wtf is going on? is it acting like an antenna cancelling rf?

Thanks in advance

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on February 17, 2009, 01:18:31 PM
Mhm, never noticed this problem, I would double check grounding.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 17, 2009, 05:13:29 PM
Leave the machine on for more than half an hour with case closed in order to get warm in there.

The filament voltage will probably rise.


Thanks will try.

Noulou, thank you for your reply! It's been really helpfull,  wiring was fine but one of my lorlin was faulty. Regarding the meter i originaly put a 22K trim in place of R6 but was afraid to go so low, but you where right two turn of trimmer after my vu finaly read 0.
For those who used sifam AL20SQ like me, substitute R6 22K with a 47ohm or little higher.

Noulou again, thanks!

I am using the same Sifam AL20SQ meter which had the same problem. Have replaced R6 on both boards with 47 ohm resistor but 1 meter (Closest to PSU) is still Flexed hard right. The other channel is at about 3 db GR so will try the 69 Ohm .

Any ideas why one channel is still a problem?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 17, 2009, 05:46:04 PM
Quote
I am using the same Sifam AL20SQ meter which had the same problem. Have replaced R6 on both boards with 47 ohm resistor but 1 meter (Closest to PSU) is still Flexed hard right. The other channel is at about 3 db GR so will try the 69 Ohm .

Any ideas why one channel is still a problem?
Did you checked the Edcors. Try to measure them , for start dc resistance...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 17, 2009, 07:00:08 PM
Quote
I am using the same Sifam AL20SQ meter which had the same problem. Have replaced R6 on both boards with 47 ohm resistor but 1 meter (Closest to PSU) is still Flexed hard right. The other channel is at about 3 db GR so will try the 69 Ohm .

Any ideas why one channel is still a problem?
Did you checked the Edcors. Try to measure them , for start dc resistance...

How do I go about doing that?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 17, 2009, 07:07:53 PM
I'ts possible that DC resistance is different on one channel ... some people reported that. Just measure are the resistances of the windings. Simply ,, by ohmeter....
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 17, 2009, 07:36:35 PM
Thanks Moby

I'm pretty rough on this stuff so if you can tell me what point to measure and what mesurements to look for that well help.
My skills beyond soldering and conecting parts are extreamly limited. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on February 18, 2009, 03:09:38 AM
Thanks Moby

I'm pretty rough on this stuff so if you can tell me what point to measure and what mesurements to look for that well help.
My skills beyond soldering and conecting parts are extreamly limited. 

Before changing R6 I would adjust RV3 to 2.4V and RV6 to 4.5V for both channels. Since the these trimmers also influence the meters, this might be a chance to get both meters right.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 18, 2009, 01:43:51 PM
Thanks Moby

I'm pretty rough on this stuff so if you can tell me what point to measure and what mesurements to look for that well help.
My skills beyond soldering and conecting parts are extreamly limited. 
Try to measure resistance on the 10k/600 (T2) from pin1 to pin2 (around 215ohm) and from pin4 to 2 (around 240ohm). If the resistance is the same on both channels than you don't have a problem with Edcor's  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 18, 2009, 05:07:35 PM
Thanks Moby

I'm pretty rough on this stuff so if you can tell me what point to measure and what mesurements to look for that well help.
My skills beyond soldering and conecting parts are extreamly limited. 

Before changing R6 I would adjust RV3 to 2.4V and RV6 to 4.5V for both channels. Since the these trimmers also influence the meters, this might be a chance to get both meters right.
regards
Bernd

Yep I've adjusted trimmers already but I think I did this without tubes in. Not sure if that changes things expecially as one channel is fine.
The meters take a while to move (around 20 seconds) then slowly make there way into position.

RE: Edcors, Thanks Moby will test further tonight.



Also ..... it was mentiond earlier that when testing the PSU without load that the capacitors hold there charge for a very long time. Well a day after doing some testing I replaced the R15 resistor and while desoldering one of the wires accidently touched the threshold pot giving a decent spark. No power had been connected for about 20 hours. :o
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on February 19, 2009, 04:49:58 AM

Also ..... it was mentiond earlier that when testing the PSU without load that the capacitors hold there charge for a very long time. Well a day after doing some testing I replaced the R15 resistor and while desoldering one of the wires accidently touched the threshold pot giving a decent spark. No power had been connected for about 20 hours. :o

Jeez !!
That's why you can now buy "capacitor powered" hand tools !
Charge them for 45 seconds and you get about 15 minutes of decent power.

Be careful mate !
MM.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 19, 2009, 05:16:42 AM
buy a cheap Multimeter for EUR 10,- and have it connected to the high voltage part all the time you work on it ...
at least I do it this way, and since I'm still alive this can't be wrong ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on February 19, 2009, 06:19:58 AM
buy a cheap Multimeter for EUR 10,- and have it connected to the high voltage part all the time you work on it ...
at least I do it this way, and since I'm still alive this can't be wrong ;D

You're too modest Volker , since you build and repair this stuff for a living ... we expect you to LIVE  !!

The rest of us "mortals" just keep one hand in a back pocket  :-\

MM.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 19, 2009, 08:18:25 AM
OK this has really got me down.

Realized I had a couple of transformers mixed around. Fixed up and turned on with much anticipation.
Meters went to correct place or close to.

Was very excited at this time ...BUT!!
After a period of time both went all the way right.

Now I am back to where I started. Am testing with everything connected and fried R10 on both pcb's again.
PSU measurements with no load are now.

Heater --14V
245V ----278V under load at around 300V
136V ----150V under load around 160v
other voltages are normal.

Measured
D8
403V - cathode
278 - anode

D9
278 - cathode
150 - anode

 :'(

Any advice on what I have blown this time. Hopfuly this was due to something I did while swapping the Edcors. Power wasn't on but considering how much charge that may have been left?????
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 19, 2009, 06:56:19 PM
OK I'm assuming I've blown IRF 820 again so will replace that and IRF 840.

Anything else ??
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 20, 2009, 03:59:43 AM
Burning R10s:
double check if your "compression / threshold" control and T3 is wired correctly.
mine smoked while testing without the controls connected.
double check T2 & T4.
the high voltages are fed through the center tap of the primary (Edcor Pin2)
you should measure (nearly) equal voltages on Pin1 & 4 of those transformers.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on February 20, 2009, 10:03:05 AM
And please measure the tx's as I described before... It can be that they are shorted or wrong wired.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 20, 2009, 05:39:11 PM
Thanks guys that gives me somewhere to look.

I have noticed also one of my Valves (V1 6BC8) now has a dark discoloration up the top of the valve.

Is this something to worry about?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on February 21, 2009, 10:54:38 AM
Hello everybody.
first PSU fire up and it did seem to work.
then I went on to check various voltages around it (off load)and I managed to short circuit PIN 2 and 3 of Q4...
 >:( >:( >:(
of course that blew Q4 and Q1. replaced those (plus Q2 and Q3 just in case) and now I have really low voltages at the output.
220V instead of 245V and 110V instead of 136V off load and 60V instead of 245V and 30V instead of 136 on load.

so then I disconnected R8 from the circuit and measured voltages(off load of course) and I have:
   -Q4 PIN 2 ->378V
   -Q4 PIN 3 ->254V   
   -Q3 PIN 1 ->101V (across the zener diode)
so everything seems to be fine at the first stage.

then I replaced Q5 and D10 reconnected R8 in the circuit but yet the voltages are as mentioned above..

are we suspecting R9 and R10? shall I replace the resistors in around Q5?!

any help will be much appreciated.

AW.


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on February 21, 2009, 11:11:31 AM
Hi,
you might check orientation C7/C9. Unless R9/R10 are not burnt, they should work properly.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on February 21, 2009, 11:50:42 AM
Thanks Bernd,

I have replaced R9/R10......

i have checked C7 and C9, they seems OK
 i have measured their capacitance:
C7 : 92 uF
C9 : 82 uF
C5 : 86 uF

still the same.
 ??? ???

Maybe the problem i have is caused by C9 and C5 that are not at their best performance ??

Someone can shom me the  way ??

Ragards
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 24, 2009, 04:04:40 AM
OK this has really got me down.

Realized I had a couple of transformers mixed around. Fixed up and turned on with much anticipation.
Meters went to correct place or close to.

Was very excited at this time ...BUT!!
After a period of time both went all the way right.

Now I am back to where I started. Am testing with everything connected and fried R10 on both pcb's again.
PSU measurements with no load are now.

Heater --14V
245V ----278V under load at around 300V
136V ----150V under load around 160v
other voltages are normal.

Measured
D8
403V - cathode
278 - anode

D9
278 - cathode
150 - anode

 :'(

Any advice on what I have blown this time. Hopfuly this was due to something I did while swapping the Edcors. Power wasn't on but considering how much charge that may have been left?????

OK
Have replaced IRF820, IRF840. and still no joy.

D8
Cathode 182
Anode 153

D9
Cathode 110
Anode 53

245V Pin  = 390V
136v Pin = 211V

I really need some help please.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on February 24, 2009, 05:10:42 AM
I really need some help please.
Static check Q1, Q2, Q3... R1, R8... If there's something wrong with Q1/2/3, you'll maybe have to disolder them... If you do, check all the resistors all around here...
Check once, twice... your ground connections.

Hope you'll find something wrong there...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 24, 2009, 05:22:22 PM
I really need some help please.
Static check Q1, Q2, Q3... R1, R8... If there's something wrong with Q1/2/3, you'll maybe have to disolder them... If you do, check all the resistors all around here...
Check once, twice... your ground connections.

Hope you'll find something wrong there...

Hi

How do I do a static check?

I did also replace Q2,Q3 but Q1 I cannot get as easily but will have too order I guess. If I work out how to check I'll find out if I have to do that.
Also desoldering is destroying the PCB pads as they are lifting off the PCB too easily and am having to wire directly.

I did have the PSU working perfectly for a while so I'm sure resistors are correct values. But will re check.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on February 24, 2009, 06:04:09 PM
Static check ... mmmm ... I don't really know if it's the correct word in english... Anyway, power off, all caps empty, test all the connections possible. On your tester you should have a diode mode... check the differents points of Q1/2/3. You should find 2 diodes values on each one (around 600mv) as a transistor is basicaly two diodes connected on the Base point. If there's something wrong with a value, you'll have to disolder the transistor to check if it isn't the all around components that make the error  :'( :'( :'(. Yes, the boards are really painfull to disolder... but I have to, and I did it but you've got to be calm and patient... Use a few solder sucking wick and the help of a disoldering pump...
If Q1 is dead I'm sure there will be someone to help you here to get one at a fair price...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on February 25, 2009, 05:13:11 AM
Tested Diodes and Q1,2,3 and all measured around .600 so that's good. 47R/2W resistors measured ok also.

Is there any further measurements to try. Could they measure well but still be faulty??

I would really appreciate any further input.


[Edit]
OK found the culpritc ....1N4764 (D7) replaced and now voltages are correct.  ;D

And now to hookup to the two PM660 boards. I'm crossing my fingers.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: klaus2you on February 28, 2009, 12:51:19 PM
Hopefully one of my 6BC8 died yesterday, i say hopefully because it make me realize that RV3 and RV6 was wrongly adjusted, -2,04V and -4,05V instead of -2,4 and -4,5!
I finaly had to retrimm my AL20 variable resistor (470r trim) and end up with something like 127R and not 47R like i said in my previous post, so my apologies here.

Volker,Analag, thank you again for this nice comp! ;D ;D ;D

Best regards, Adrien.

http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc214/klaus2you/DIY/
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on February 28, 2009, 03:00:23 PM
OK found the culpritc ....
:) :) :)

Adrien,
very nice and clean build 8) 8) 8)
the PSU transformer is mounted under the PSU PCB ?
interesting looking switches as well  ;D
enjoy it !!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: klaus2you on February 28, 2009, 06:01:31 PM
Volker,

thank you for the kind words! Regarding the PSU transformer you're right, i mount it under the PSU pcb encapsulated into a shielded can. The switches are Elma's.
I really like the way you design boards, clever work ! I wait for your analag tube eq and your 500 format box and hope i'm not going to miss the order thread this time.

Thank you again Volker,Analag ;)

Adrien.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on March 01, 2009, 07:39:22 PM
i mount it under the PSU pcb encapsulated into a shielded can.

Great idea!

What transformer was this, a toroid I'm guessing, made by whom? Where did you get the can?

I've always had difficulties finding transformer shielding cans.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on March 01, 2009, 08:16:06 PM
Very, very nice indeed.

analag
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on March 01, 2009, 09:35:48 PM
My Stereo PM660 is now up and running  ;D

BUT!!

I have a slight issue with the gain and threshold controls. One channel seems to influance the other and gain setting seem differect for each as does the threshold.
 
I have wired PSU to channel 2 then to channel 1.
Should I wire both channels directly to PSU?
 
Or is the problem likly to be somewhere else? have checked rotary switches and all seems fine same with wiring.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on March 02, 2009, 08:12:52 AM
My Stereo PM660 is now up and running  ;D
BUT!!
Good to know it's working !
I like star-grounding and I like to star supply wiring from PSU boards...
I don't know if it'll solve your problem but I think it's a better way to do...

Maybe the weird looking 6BC8 is where your problem is... Try to change the tubes from one board to the other to see if the problem changes too (it'll be the tubes), then if it stays on the same side, try to exchange the gain pots, test... Repeat with threshold pot, then transformers... If there's an easy way to find, you'll find by possibilities elimination...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 04, 2009, 02:49:18 AM
My first channel is set up in "experimentation mode": I want to try different sidechain mods suggested here and other things but I got one question about RV3 and RV6:
I know these should be trimmed to get -2,4V and -4,5V, but when playing around with these I noticed that I get really nice distortion when  raising RV3. I will include this as an effect with a switch but was wondering if there are any reasons I should not so (safety etc).
The reason I ask is because I don´t have the technical knowledge to understand the function of RV3 and RV6.
Thanks, emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on March 04, 2009, 06:01:11 AM
Are the stereo boards hook up serial or parallel ?

regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on March 04, 2009, 08:09:19 AM
My first channel is set up in "experimentation mode": I want to try different sidechain mods suggested here and other things but I got one question about RV3 and RV6:
I know these should be trimmed to get -2,4V and -4,5V, but when playing around with these I noticed that I get really nice distortion when  raising RV3. I will include this as an effect with a switch but was wondering if there are any reasons I should not so (safety etc).
The reason I ask is because I don´t have the technical knowledge to understand the function of RV3 and RV6.
Thanks, emre
RV6 sets upper grids polarisation, this polarisation will be more negative when compressing.
RV3 sets the anode polarisation.
Both sets the non-compressing operation point of the 6BC8.
To know if you're going to damage your tubes, you've got to measure the voltage and current at the anode of the 6BC8. If it the multiplication give less power than what they can accept, it is safe, if not you will damage your tubes.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 04, 2009, 03:15:53 PM

RV6 sets upper grids polarisation, this polarisation will be more negative when compressing.
RV3 sets the anode polarisation.
Both sets the non-compressing operation point of the 6BC8.
To know if you're going to damage your tubes, you've got to measure the voltage and current at the anode of the 6BC8. If it the multiplication give less power than what they can accept, it is safe, if not you will damage your tubes.

Ah, thanks for your reply lolo! Do I have to measure when compressing or non compressing or does it not matter?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on March 04, 2009, 04:34:52 PM

RV6 sets upper grids polarisation, this polarisation will be more negative when compressing.
RV3 sets the anode polarisation.
Both sets the non-compressing operation point of the 6BC8.
To know if you're going to damage your tubes, you've got to measure the voltage and current at the anode of the 6BC8. If it the multiplication give less power than what they can accept, it is safe, if not you will damage your tubes.

Ah, thanks for your reply lolo! Do I have to measure when compressing or non compressing or does it not matter?

Both !!!
When compressing, current is little, but voltage big.
Without compression, current is high and voltage low.
Measure both situation, allow about 5 or 10% of margin power for security ( curves maybe vary during compression ).
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: gevermil on March 04, 2009, 10:00:23 PM
Has anyone here used these ebay switches ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-PC-Selector-Switch-24-step-2-pole-Attenuator-Pot-New_W0QQitemZ280313607493QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280313607493&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

If they have been mentioned in this thread Im sorry .

Just looking for the good buy
thanks
gary
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 05, 2009, 02:17:39 AM
Thanks again lolo!
emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Holger on March 05, 2009, 03:23:53 AM
Has anyone here used these ebay switches ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-PC-Selector-Switch-24-step-2-pole-Attenuator-Pot-New_W0QQitemZ280313607493QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280313607493&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

If they have been mentioned in this thread Im sorry .

Just looking for the good buy
thanks
gary
I have purchased four of them. They are cheap in any regard.
1. the adjustment range is 345° rather than then usual 270°-300°.
2. some holes are too small for 2 resistor legs.
It will take hours to solder one switch. I didn't had the money to buy Goldpoint switches, I wish I had...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on March 05, 2009, 03:50:27 AM
Has anyone here used these ebay switches ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-PC-Selector-Switch-24-step-2-pole-Attenuator-Pot-New_W0QQitemZ280313607493QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280313607493&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

If they have been mentioned in this thread Im sorry .

Just looking for the good buy
thanks
gary
I use those too. They're perfect for the job... If I do remember well, bernbrue uses them too.
Warning : overall diameter with resistors is about 34mm. (it can be a problem in some cases)
If someone has got a tip to reduce those switches from 24 positions to 20 I am interrested ! I must admit I didn't try to open their back so...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on March 05, 2009, 06:10:50 AM
Quote
If someone has got a tip to reduce those switches from 24 positions to 20 I am interrested ! I must admit I didn't try to open their back so...

Its possible to reduce the # of positions by opening the switch (carfully..) and inserting a piece of those small plastic retainers that you would use to hold your wires together...
there is a curved slit inside - thats where you put the small piece of plastic. - once you open the switch it will all be clear.....
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on March 05, 2009, 09:22:04 AM
Has anyone here used these ebay switches ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/1-PC-Selector-Switch-24-step-2-pole-Attenuator-Pot-New_W0QQitemZ280313607493QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item280313607493&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

If they have been mentioned in this thread Im sorry .

Just looking for the good buy
thanks
gary

Hi,
these are the Uraltone switches. I used them for my PM670 prototype. They are not as good as the Elma ones but good quality for a reasonable price.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SIXTYNINER on March 06, 2009, 06:45:51 AM
GREAT JOB
klaus2you

nice 660 on the "club"

6T9R
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 08, 2009, 04:25:18 PM
Just to be on the safe side:
refering to the shematic on which leg of RV3 and RV6 do I measure the to be adjusted voltage?
One more question:
I played around witch different meters and values for R6 + additional paralleled trimmers: whatever I do the needle of the meter is constantly moving back and forth and indeed: when measuring voltage across R6 it is raising and dropping constantly! Does anybody have an idea what´s wrong?
Thanks a lot, Emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 10, 2009, 02:28:38 AM
Don´t mean to be impatient, but is there anyone who could help me out?
Thanks, Emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on March 10, 2009, 07:03:34 AM
Hi Emre,
just a few ideas: check PSU for constant 136V, +/-17V. Check also the wiring of T2. Check the transformer itself. What about Q1, isolated from ground? I had problems with a bad solder contact at the trimmers (RV3, RV6). What kind of meters do you use? Do the meters of both channel react the same way? Hope it helps a bit.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on March 10, 2009, 07:12:58 AM
Just to be on the safe side:
refering to the shematic on which leg of RV3 and RV6 do I measure the to be adjusted voltage?

Hi Emre, you measure between pin 2 of trimmer and ground.  (Not that I knew this but Volker said so on page 20 of this thread  ;) )

Cheers,
G
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 12, 2009, 06:53:12 PM
Thanks Grooveteer, must have overlooked that.
And thanks Bernd for your help.
At the moment I have only built one channel, so no comparison possible  :(
I checked voltages from PSU, they are stable. ALso switched T2, still the same, and yes, Q1 is isolated.
At the moment I use a DC meter because my SIfam AL22 seems to have a too high internal resistance. I took out the rectifying part out of another AL22 before and got it working with the PM660 but I accidently dropped it, and well, we might meet again in heaven. :-\
BUT:
I tried disconnecting the other Transformers as well. When I disconnect Nr4 the needle stops moving back and forth so I guess it must be something in the sidechain section.
Anybody knows what to check?
Thanks in advance, Emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on March 13, 2009, 01:49:08 AM
Maybe check  T2, T4 transformers are 10K:600 and you havn't put one of the  600:10K ones in by accident.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 13, 2009, 04:20:17 AM
Yesterday night I suddenly realized that the sidechain section can´t be the problem because it is AFTER T4, so I thought it is maybe the second tube section just BEFORE T4. ANd indeed, when swapping the tubes my meters needle stopped to move, everything seems to be fine now  8)
Thanks everybody four your help!
Emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on March 19, 2009, 12:23:47 AM
OK High Five everybody.

I have a working PM670.

Analag..... Seriously ........ you have designd a wepon.
This has been my most challanging build so thanks everybody for your support.
Damn it ......... I said I wasn't gonna cry.  :'(







Who want's to buy an Avalon 747 ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on March 19, 2009, 05:14:04 AM
I have a working PM670.
congratulation :) :) :)
you know we want to see some photos, don't you ...  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on March 19, 2009, 05:16:44 AM
picspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicspicsp
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: creal on March 19, 2009, 06:24:25 AM
rrs
Quote
Who want's to buy an Avalon 747 ?

i want to start my PMs (just missing some part before start the 2 babes).

Where is the pics ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on March 19, 2009, 07:36:40 AM
Well I got so excited that it's all racked up.

I took some pic's before it was finished and was a little messy but what the heck hey.

(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg161/rrs12/P1010056.jpg)
(http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg161/rrs12/P1010054.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on March 19, 2009, 08:18:50 AM
(just missing some part before start the 2 babes).

Hi Creal , which parts are you missing???PM me if you want!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on March 19, 2009, 08:34:58 AM
Well I got so excited that it's all racked up.
I took some pic's before it was finished and was a little messy but what the heck hey.

(http://www.nrgrecording.de/nrg/images/smiles/headbang.gif)(http://www.nrgrecording.de/nrg/images/smiles/headbang.gif)(http://www.nrgrecording.de/nrg/images/smiles/headbang.gif)
congratulations, I love the creamy chickenheads. They arrange nicely with the beautiful meters. Enjoy the compressor monster.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on March 19, 2009, 08:49:29 PM
Hello!

Can anyone tell me, if you please, the link regarding the PM660/670 and the Sifam AL20SQ... I know that there's some resistor I need to change...
I'm planning wire a 5K trimmer between the VU leads to regulate the zero...
I power up my PM670 and both VU stuck at the right side... I didn't adjust RV3 and RV6 yet...
Can anyone help?

Cheers,

Eddie ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on March 19, 2009, 09:20:31 PM

For those who used sifam AL20SQ like me, substitute R6 22K with a 47ohm or little higher.



This worked for me.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: klaus2you on March 19, 2009, 11:17:10 PM

For those who used sifam AL20SQ like me, substitute R6 22K with a 47ohm or little higher.



This worked for me.


Rrs,

congratulation for your build!!

SaMpLeGoD,

I finaly removed the resistor and solder a 100ohm trim, i first tried a 5k 25turn trimmer and removed it to get something more precise but it works.
Also before you trim your meter precisely to O, power up your unit whith the top of the rack close for a while.

Best, Adrien.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on March 20, 2009, 12:09:59 AM
Hey rrs and Adrien!
Thanks for the fast reply!

Adrien, did you use the 100Ohm trimmer to set the Odb on the Meter? did you put that trimmer with access in your front panel for future zero resets? or do you simply regulate the unit with the 100Ohm trimmer and set the 5K trimmer (that was supposed to be across the Sifam lugs)to be acessed from the front panel?

Thanks a lot!
I'll put some pics soon ;)

Eddie ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on March 20, 2009, 03:30:26 AM
I use a Sifam AL22 and ended up doing following steps:
1. remove the 22K resistor and replace with a 2K trimmer
2. remove the rectifying bridge and resistors inside the meter
3. put a 50K resistor in series to the meter

Before doing step 2 I couldn´t get the needle to zero.
Before doing step 3 I could get the needle to zero but it was "unstable" moving left and right when moving my hands around it or the wires.  ??? But now it behaves like it should do,well, tracking is not 100% but...
I´m not sure if another value in step 3 would be "better", someone with more knowledge could give the answer...
Good luck, Emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on March 21, 2009, 04:57:33 AM
to remember for all people having PSU problems:
use IRF840 on both places (Q4 & Q5)
doesn't make sense to order one IRF820 & one IRF840 anyway :D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mata_haze on March 21, 2009, 11:15:44 AM
hello everybody,
I am having troubles with my 670 in the power supply section.
can anyone post any static voltage readings (or PM) so I can compare them with mine?
many thanks
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mata_haze on March 21, 2009, 01:23:27 PM
done.
Q3 was blown.
I kindly recomend to follow silent art suggestion: since I have used 2X IRF840 the supply has exactly the right voltages...


Best,
Mattia.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on March 21, 2009, 02:06:58 PM
great you sorted it out  8)

anyway, if I can find some time next week I will try to do a voltage chart for the PSU PCB.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on March 21, 2009, 05:08:10 PM
I used IFR820 and IRF840, and so far I have all the voltages with correct values and working... do you think I'll have problems if I don't sawp the IRF820 by the IRF840?

Cheers,

Eddie

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on March 22, 2009, 09:22:53 AM
Hi,
as Mata_haze told, we have solved the problem with the PSU (the PM we are working on is the same unit),
so the voltages are OK without LOAD , but when i plug-in the two boards there is a huge drop:

245V -> 77V
136V ->36V

The heater is perfect at 6,35V

May i suspect the IRF regulators not working properly ?

 >:(PM670 is a complicated beast !) >:(

Many thanks for your help
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on March 23, 2009, 05:12:07 AM
I used IFR820 and IRF840, and so far I have all the voltages with correct values and working... do you think I'll have problems if I don't sawp the IRF820 by the IRF840?
since it is working I don't see any reason to change it.
there other units running with this combination without problems.

some people had problems and changing the IRF820 to 840 helped.
may be there are some bad or underspect IRF820 arround ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on March 23, 2009, 05:48:45 AM
Hi,
as Mata_haze told, we have solved the problem with the PSU (the PM we are working on is the same unit),
so the voltages are OK without LOAD , but when i plug-in the two boards there is a huge drop:

245V -> 77V
136V ->36V

The heater is perfect at 6,35V

May i suspect the IRF regulators not working properly ?

 >:(PM670 is a complicated beast !) >:(

Many thanks for your help

What makes you think the PSU is the problem. Sounds like the boards might be shorting somwhere. Check if R1 is getting hot or too warm. If there is too high a current draw after the regulator R1 is there to drop the voltage among other things.

analag 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mata_haze on March 23, 2009, 09:29:40 PM
Hello,
the following are the results after an afternoon of tests:

the 670 got tested without VU meters in the circuit and the following is the behavior:
-at start up all the voltages reach NEARLY correct level ie=245 it's instead 230
-after 30 seconds 245V drops down to 136. and the 136 branch drops to 64.
   -with VUs in circuit the voltages drop as follows 245->77 and 136->30.

we cheched R1 on the PSU and is not hot at all, the voltage drop across it it's 0.18 VDC

then we tried to twick RV3 and RV6 and the voltages bumped as follows:
245-> 180 (previously 136)
136-> 90 (previously 64).

any hint?

many thanks,

Best,
Mattia.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on March 24, 2009, 11:50:39 AM
Now the situation is this:

PSU alone is:
245-> 254
136-> 138

With  Boards:
245->is 158
136->is 83
 ??? ???

What we have done:
-tweaked RV3 and Rv6 at correct values (-2,4   -4,5)
-checked  for current drop across R1 : 0,73 VDC
-checked ALL trafos (one pin of T1 was broken_ Edcor !!   >:( : FIXED !)
-checked the PSU alone with no boards and without R8 _ after Q4 we have 254V perfect !

Any suggestion ? Any idea?

Many thanks

Best regards
Nico

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on March 24, 2009, 12:08:59 PM
first, test it with one channel.
if one channel is working, swap the channels.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on March 24, 2009, 03:53:32 PM
Plug out the 6BC8's and power up. Check if the voltage to the GR (5687) is stable now.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on March 25, 2009, 05:14:13 AM
Ok,
the struggle goes on !!! >:(

So i've pulled out 6BC8's, and measured 5687's :
On valve pin 1 / 9 -> 202V
On valve Pin 2 / 7 -> 0V
On valve Pin 3 / 6 -> 15V

The PSU  now shows:
245-> 204
136-> 108

---
Yes Volker,
I have already tested channel by channel , but they do the same ! ???
----
I wanna see the "light" with this project !!!
Any direction ?

Nico
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on March 25, 2009, 02:27:37 PM
hi
[silent:arts]

anyone can i connect the 50w resistor to power supply without the pm660 modules been attached?


thanks

skal1



Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on March 25, 2009, 02:29:24 PM
you can
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on March 25, 2009, 02:31:12 PM
 ;D  hi
[silent:arts]


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 01, 2009, 07:54:55 AM
hi

What value is a good starting place for r15  the 50w resistor , with the rectified 9v from the tx i am seeing 13.35v. can someone help me with this please

thanks in advance.


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on April 04, 2009, 09:13:02 AM
Hello all,

I finally finished my PM670 and I'm having some questions that I can't really understand...

1) Why, even I'm not in link mode, if I move one threshold (left or right) both VUs move? it's supposed to move indepoendently, right?

2) Is the SIFAM AL20SQ that slow? I think they have a excessive release time... can I do something? or is just VU caratheristic and that's it?

3) I just can only "hear" the compression at the extreme hard CW gain + threshold, so only at this time I understand what the TConstants are doing... I'll get the Lolo-m mod as soon as possible, because this is not a behaviour I expected and like :(

4) In "Link" stereo mode, should I move the ontrols in "parallel"? or only the controls of one channel takes place? I ralize that the gains re independent, but the threshold don't... how about the TC?

5) why in CCW or CW pos the VU's get nuts without any signal? like: no input signal put the threshold hard CW or CCW the VU goes far left? it is norlmal?

Sorry for all the questions, the comp It sounds really nice, but do what I didn't expect from a compressor... maybe with the new TC network... thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Eddie :-\
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 04, 2009, 09:27:35 AM
Hello all,

I finally finished my PM670 and I'm having some questions that I can't really understand...

1) Why, even I'm not in link mode, if I move one threshold (left or right) both VUs move? it's supposed to move indepoendently, right?

2) Is the SIFAM AL20SQ that slow? I think they have a excessive release time... can I do something? or is just VU caratheristic and that's it?

3) I just can only "hear" the compression at the extreme hard CW gain + threshold, so only at this time I understand what the TConstants are doing... I'll get the Lolo-m mod as soon as possible, because this is not a behaviour I expected and like :(

4) In "Link" stereo mode, should I move the ontrols in "parallel"? or only the controls of one channel takes place? I ralize that the gains re independent, but the threshold don't... how about the TC?

5) why in CCW or CW pos the VU's get nuts without any signal? like: no input signal put the threshold hard CW or CCW the VU goes far left? it is norlmal?

Sorry for all the questions, the comp It sounds really nice, but do what I didn't expect from a compressor... maybe with the new TC network... thanks in advance!

Cheers,

Eddie :-\

Eddie,
For the full CV / CCW problem :
Try to measure the voltage on the two sides of the diode bridge with no signal and your "pots" on mid position... If there's 0,1 or 0,2V it isn't normal... I had this problem on one side of mine ::) ... There was something wrong with the diode bridge but I didn't go farer in my searches as I implement my mod on it and this mod needs the bridge to be removed... I would like to know why there was this problem anyway  ::)
The link problem is certainly a result of this problem...

Analag loves high level signals... definitely  ;D !!! I agree, you've got to push hard the comp... Some of our digital workstations are falling on their knees with a less than 1K loads...

The slow release isn't that slow... There's two release times in Analag's network, one quite fast ( about 300ms IMO ) and one slow... If the needle moove fast for attack, you haven't got an problem.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 04, 2009, 09:46:35 AM
can some one point me to the self etch slow start heat psu, being look for a couple of days for this .


regards

denis
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 04, 2009, 10:26:00 AM
can some one point me to the self etch slow start heat psu, being look for a couple of days for this
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg371412#msg371412
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 04, 2009, 12:37:29 PM
I'm in the middle of building this beast (can't wait to finish it) but i have one question about the zener diodes.
i have ordered zener diodes at RS and i'm not sure if they are the right one's and before i stick 'm on board i wanted to make sure.

RS pn. 625-6518,  100V Zener diode,1N5378B 5W
RS pn. 812-538,  20V Zener diode,BZX85C20 1.3W

Will these do the job or do i need other zeners? I'm pretty new to zener diodes so i'm not sure..
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on April 04, 2009, 10:19:20 PM
Eddie,
For the full CV / CCW problem :
Try to measure the voltage on the two sides of the diode bridge with no signal and your "pots" on mid position... If there's 0,1 or 0,2V it isn't normal... I had this problem on one side of mine ::) ... There was something wrong with the diode bridge but I didn't go farer in my searches as I implement my mod on it and this mod needs the bridge to be removed... I would like to know why there was this problem anyway  ::)
The link problem is certainly a result of this problem...

Analag loves high level signals... definitely  ;D !!! I agree, you've got to push hard the comp... Some of our digital workstations are falling on their knees with a less than 1K loads...

The slow release isn't that slow... There's two release times in Analag's network, one quite fast ( about 300ms IMO ) and one slow... If the needle moove fast for attack, you haven't got an problem.


Hello Laurent!! your explanation helps me a lot! thanks!!! I'll measure the diode bridge just to be sure, althrough I'm looking forward your board to boost the Side Chain Amp ;)
About the VU's needle, it is moving correctly, just the release is a little bit slow... I think there's no problem with that :)
The comp is preety clear, but I need to feel the compression, maybe is a bad habit, hehehe, but I move the threshold in this comp and it sound like lowering the volume, I don´t really feel the compression acting... maybe with your mod I'll start to feel this... hope so!  :-\

In link mode witch control assume both os channels regulation? only the threshold?
Thanks a lot!

Eddie ;)

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 05, 2009, 04:32:00 AM
In link mode witch control assume both os channels regulation? only the threshold?
look at the schematic / block diagram (http://www.silentarts.de/DIY/PM660/PM660-BlockDiagram.pdf)
the stereo link is done like in the original fairchild: combining the control voltage of both channels.
the control voltage in the block diagram is the line which goes from the "time constant" block to the "input gain".
you can easily see this is behind all controls.
for stereo operation it is best to have set all controls to the same value.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: btproductionsaustralia on April 05, 2009, 04:49:30 AM
hey Guys,

is any one selling pcb's for the 660/670 or do you have to make your own?

I'm in australia...

BT
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 05, 2009, 05:01:44 AM
is any one selling pcb's for the 660/670 or do you have to make your own?
the PCBs are sold out.
watch the black market, from time to time somebody sells a set.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 05, 2009, 05:34:37 AM
The comp is preety clear, but I need to feel the compression, maybe is a bad habit, hehehe, but I move the threshold in this comp and it sound like lowering the volume, I don´t really feel the compression acting... maybe with your mod I'll start to feel this... hope so!  :-\
Analag's network is really interresting because you don't feel much compression effect even when you compress a lot... Some poeple like, some others don't...
With my mod you can have more possibilities of attack/release and so more earable compression effects if you want. But a varimu comp is always natural when compressing...

For stereo mode, only the input setting can be different ( to adjust the volume of a bad balanced signal ) and the threshold should be the same on both channels...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 05, 2009, 08:59:44 AM
I'm in the middle of building this beast (can't wait to finish it) but i have one question about the zener diodes.
i have ordered zener diodes at RS and i'm not sure if they are the right one's and before i stick 'm on board i wanted to make sure.

RS pn. 625-6518,  100V Zener diode,1N5378B 5W
RS pn. 812-538,  20V Zener diode,BZX85C20 1.3W

Will these do the job or do i need other zeners? I'm pretty new to zener diodes so i'm not sure..

nobody?  :o
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on April 05, 2009, 09:51:43 AM
I'm in the middle of building this beast (can't wait to finish it) but i have one question about the zener diodes.
i have ordered zener diodes at RS and i'm not sure if they are the right one's and before i stick 'm on board i wanted to make sure.

RS pn. 625-6518,  100V Zener diode,1N5378B 5W
RS pn. 812-538,  20V Zener diode,BZX85C20 1.3W

Will these do the job or do i need other zeners? I'm pretty new to zener diodes so i'm not sure..

nobody?  :o

AFAIK breakdown voltage is all that matters...do the test and see for yerself  ;)

http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/index_tj.asp?objID=ENG6903
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: SaMpLeGoD on April 05, 2009, 11:18:57 AM
Thanks Volker and Laurent! Looking forward to apply the Scamp mod... I really want ot hear some compression effect ;)
Cheers,

Eddie :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 06, 2009, 08:17:29 AM
I'm in the middle of building this beast (can't wait to finish it) but i have one question about the zener diodes.
i have ordered zener diodes at RS and i'm not sure if they are the right one's and before i stick 'm on board i wanted to make sure.

RS pn. 625-6518,  100V Zener diode,1N5378B 5W
RS pn. 812-538,  20V Zener diode,BZX85C20 1.3W

Will these do the job or do i need other zeners? I'm pretty new to zener diodes so i'm not sure..

nobody?  :o

AFAIK breakdown voltage is all that matters...do the test and see for yerself  ;)

http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/index_tj.asp?objID=ENG6903
OK, so i'm save using 'm if i look at it like that..
Thanks!

A new pm670 will be born soon.  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 10, 2009, 02:03:08 PM
Just wondering, what resistor values did everybody use here for the time constant switch?

I have allready made the uraltone swithes en modified them to 21 steps which is not really easy to do.
I will try to post pics of where i drilled a hole and put in a 1.5mm copper wire as a stopper. Works like a charm and you don't have to open up anything.  8)

Meters came in today (the retro sifam's), tubes are in and the boards are stuffed for 95% now can't wait to hear it!
Still need to think about the frontpanel, not sure if i go for lasertran (cheap and fast) or engraving (expensive, better but slower)
I only had 2 DOA XSM600/10k's, waiting for a response from Tony now..  :-[
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 12, 2009, 04:39:50 PM
Just wondering, what resistor values did everybody use here for the time constant switch?

I have allready made the uraltone swithes en modified them to 21 steps which is not really easy to do.
I will try to post pics of where i drilled a hole and put in a 1.5mm copper wire as a stopper. Works like a charm and you don't have to open up anything.  8)

Meters came in today (the retro sifam's), tubes are in and the boards are stuffed for 95% now can't wait to hear it!
Still need to think about the frontpanel, not sure if i go for lasertran (cheap and fast) or engraving (expensive, better but slower)
I only had 2 DOA XSM600/10k's, waiting for a response from Tony now..  :-[

Nobody? Topic is a bit resting i guess..
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 12, 2009, 05:06:13 PM
Just wondering, what resistor values did everybody use here for the time constant switch?
nothing is resting, but I'm tired to say:
choose the suggested stock values.
if you are unhappy you can do experiments.
why always mod before heard ? ???
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 13, 2009, 03:07:08 AM
Just wondering, what resistor values did everybody use here for the time constant switch?
nothing is resting, but I'm tired to say:
choose the suggested stock values.
if you are unhappy you can do experiments.
why always mod before heard ? ???

I don't want to mod this thing.. i want to keep it stock.. ok.. ordered the 'modboard' but i'm not even sure if i'm going to use it, if i'm happy with what i hear it's cool for me.
The thing is, i don't see the stock values for the time constant anyware or do i miss something here?  :-[
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 13, 2009, 03:40:42 AM
... The thing is, i don't see the stock values for the time constant anyware or do i miss something here?  :-[

RV7 on the schematic, 10K lin pot. if you want 6 steps switched use 5 x 2K resistors.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 13, 2009, 10:00:39 AM
... The thing is, i don't see the stock values for the time constant anyware or do i miss something here?  :-[

RV7 on the schematic, 10K lin pot. if you want 6 steps switched use 5 x 2K resistors.

OK, thanks! That was what i was looking for.. couldn't be more simple, i was thinking way more difficult.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 14, 2009, 09:39:48 AM
Just wondering, what resistor values did everybody use here for the time constant switch?
nothing is resting, but I'm tired to say:
choose the suggested stock values.
if you are unhappy you can do experiments.
why always mod before heard ? ???
That's why I made the board to have a "Stock" mode  ;)... It is working really well stock... This is also why I designed the mod to be easily reversed into stock PM670...  :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 14, 2009, 09:48:01 AM
nothing wrong Lolo,
I like the enthusiasms you put in your boards and in this project.
should order one PCB too, just to support it.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on April 14, 2009, 09:38:32 PM
nothing wrong Lolo,
I like the enthusiasms you put in your boards and in this project.
should order one PCB too, just to support it.


Shouldn't somebody send me one...really?

analag
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: rrs on April 14, 2009, 09:49:14 PM
nothing wrong Lolo,
I like the enthusiasms you put in your boards and in this project.
should order one PCB too, just to support it.


Shouldn't somebody send me one...really?

analag

Not untill you let us in on the next big Project.  ;D

It's was an EQ of sorts am I right.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 15, 2009, 03:01:00 AM
nothing wrong Lolo,
I like the enthusiasms you put in your boards and in this project.
should order one PCB too, just to support it.


Shouldn't somebody send me one...really?

analag

analag and [Silent:arts]: if you're interrested in mod boards, just PM me or e-mail me with your address, I would be glad to offer one to you  ;D ! Without you this project wouldn't be what it is !
Thank you again and again !
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: analag on April 15, 2009, 10:09:56 AM
analag and [Silent:arts]: if you're interrested in mod boards, just PM me or e-mail me with your address, I would be glad to offer one to you  ;D ! Without you this project wouldn't be what it is !
Thank you again and again !

I'm just messing around...I already have the PoorMan II.

analag
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 15, 2009, 10:15:27 AM
Poor Man II !!!
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 15, 2009, 10:18:04 AM
hoha ;D
let me first finish the EQ ... :o
too busy times ...

official announcement:
I hired some server space yesterday, to do a web shop for all this wonderful projects.
group buys are always too limited in time, and this would give a mostly permanent availability of the PCBs and may be some hard to get parts.

sad thing is: setting this up costs some time which could be used in designing PCBs and building prototypes ...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lewilson on April 15, 2009, 01:58:44 PM
Ive got my poorman working , A few bugs to work out still.
Also Im reading a max of about -12 volts for control voltage with full compresion, is this correct?  Many thanks
   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 17, 2009, 12:12:45 PM
Hey , can anyone help me with this heater resistor  thingy , ok know matter what resistor i connect to r15 i do not seem to get a voltage drop for the heater supply , what  am i doing wrong ?

regards


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 17, 2009, 02:28:56 PM
Hey , can anyone help me with this heater resistor  thingy , ok know matter what resistor i connect to r15 i do not seem to get a voltage drop for the heater supply , what  am i doing wrong ?
measuring without tubes in ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 17, 2009, 02:35:44 PM
yes without the any signal boards connected


regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 17, 2009, 04:18:26 PM
No tube = no heater current = no voltage drop thru R15 = no heater voltage change
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 17, 2009, 05:53:34 PM
That what i thought , so no load means no voltage drop .If i connected two 8v 2.5A bulbs in parallel to the heater out put  would this simulate the two signal pcbs?

@lolom


regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 18, 2009, 02:05:35 AM
Yes it will simulate it, but with an error... I don't think they will take 2,5A if the voltage drop thru R15 tends to give you 6.3V... You can measure the current anyway thru R15 with the ohm law I=U/R15 to know if you're close to the ideal value for R15 or not...
Title: Re: new power supplies
Post by: lewilson on April 18, 2009, 01:32:08 PM
Maybe for the next batch of pm660 pc boards you can put a little more room for transisor sockets for q1 q2 and q3.  Many thanks
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 19, 2009, 11:41:09 AM
ok just hooked up 1 chan of the poor man but it does not sound right , i have checked the supply to the board with out tubes in and that is ok .


245=250

137=139

the 17v rails are ok too the heater voltage is 6.4

With tubes in i am getting really low voltage on the 245v and 137v  so 245v equals 40v and 137=20v every other voltage is ok , bacisally under load strange things are happen  any clues.javascript:void(0);

regards

skal1



Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on April 19, 2009, 02:55:33 PM
I think there were some similiar problems with another members unit, you should check the previous posts.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 19, 2009, 03:29:31 PM
Hey veermaster that post has no conclusion to their  problem  >:( it seems funny that the psu is ok  without the signal board connect and ok with signal board connected without tubes in ,this makes think that irf840/820 can not handle the load of the 4  tubes properly , so tomorrow i will try subing the 820 for the 840 and see what happens then.

regards


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on April 20, 2009, 04:31:16 AM
I thought they solved the problem but I didn´t really follow since I was lucky enough to have a working PSU.
Good luck!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on April 20, 2009, 05:24:24 AM
I'm sure that Volker mentioned that 2 x 840's may help.

MM.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on April 20, 2009, 07:38:45 AM
to remember for all people having PSU problems:
use IRF840 on both places (Q4 & Q5)
doesn't make sense to order one IRF820 & one IRF840 anyway :D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 08:22:19 AM
 ;D yes yes the beast lives
to remember for all people having PSU problems:
use IRF840 on both places (Q4 & Q5)
doesn't make sense to order one IRF820 & one IRF840 anyway :D


regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mrclunk on April 21, 2009, 08:28:15 AM
Quote
yes yes the beast lives

muhahaa

Hopefully mine will soon, i just need a clear day to finish it. 


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 21, 2009, 08:34:44 AM
;D yes yes the beast lives
good news - have fun  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 08:41:08 AM
Thanks to analog and the art for bring this project bless up , whens the tube eq comin?


regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 21, 2009, 08:57:02 AM
... whens the tube eq comin?
should have more time :-\
but it will come for sure :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 04:19:11 PM
ok this might be a silly ? , i have injected a 0.776v sine wave in to the poor man ,which i have read is  0db so why is it that the poor man is clipping on my master meter on my o1v , i can hear the compression but with the led meter sticking at clip i can not see what happen , do i need some sort of volume control on the output or am i missing some thing.  ???


regards

skal1


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on April 21, 2009, 04:25:53 PM
ok this might be a silly ? , i have injected a 0.776v sine wave in to the poor man ,which i have read is  0db so why is it that the poor man is clipping on my master meter on my o1v , i can hear the compression but with the led meter sticking at clip i can not see what happen , do i need some sort of volume control on the output or am i missing some thing.  ???


regards

skal1



You have two controls. Input and threshold. Turn the threshold at min to achieve no compression and tune the input to have 0 db. Then you are at unity gain . Than if you turn threshold you will notice some compression at some point
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 21, 2009, 04:43:41 PM
I probably overlook it but what should be done with the elco's between the PSU connector on the pm660 compressor board??? so the ones that are on both sides of the connector.
There is no value given and nothing in the BOM and on the silkscreen.
Are they optional? i think they are part to the high voltage section.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 05:10:20 PM
hi thanks moby,

i have a bypass ? , i have wired the bypass boards up and they are not working correctly .I have connected the - to the bypass pcbs and + to the switches  and from the switches to the corresponding relay boards is this correct,, the reason i am ask is that when both switches are in bypass it works ok but if i switch one of the switches to on and try to switch either of them on at the same time only one seems to be working properly .

regards

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on April 21, 2009, 05:18:33 PM
Quote
I have connected the - to the bypass pcbs and + to the switches  and from the switches to the corresponding relay boards is this correct,

The bypass boards don't take the - voltage. Just send the +12V from the PSU660 board to the relay. But make it switchable (no 12V sent to the relay board gives bypass).

Quote
I probably overlook it but what should be done with the elco's between the PSU connector on the pm660 compressor board??? so the ones that are on both sides of the connector.

I presume you mean the space for the electrolytics on the pm660 boards? They are completely optional. No need to use them if you don't want.

Rob
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 05:31:11 PM
Quote

The bypass boards don't take the - voltage. Just send the +12V from the PSU660 board to the relay. But make it switchable (no 12V sent to the relay board gives bypass).





Rob

so why is their to wires leading to the relay boards on the wiring diagram

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RAM on April 21, 2009, 05:34:36 PM
One is +12V and the other is a connection to ground. Bear in mind the wiring diagram doesn't show a switch for to turn bypass on and off. It is a little bit confusing due to the colours Volker used for the description just beneath the connection on the diagam.

Rob
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on April 21, 2009, 05:39:28 PM
Quote
the reason i am ask is that when both switches are in bypass it works ok but if i switch one of the switches to on and try to switch either of them on at the same time only one seems to be working properly .
So you solved the gain issue? This is the another Q? Did you measured voltage on relays when you switch bypass. Any drop from 12V?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 05:48:11 PM
yes can of solved just turn down the source level right, no i have not measures for any voltage drop but i will try that next , is it the way i have wired the relays?


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on April 21, 2009, 05:58:48 PM
If you have voltage drop (12V) when you turn bypass on than it's possible that you have a +12V psu problem of relay is faulty. Probably the 1. one is possible  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Grooveteer on April 21, 2009, 06:00:12 PM
I probably overlook it but what should be done with the elco's between the PSU connector on the pm660 compressor board??? so the ones that are on both sides of the connector.
There is no value given and nothing in the BOM and on the silkscreen.
Are they optional? i think they are part to the high voltage section.

They're not needed as per Volker  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 06:04:42 PM
just to ease my confusion of bypass relay boards, 0v goes to one pin on board and then you cut postive rail and insert swicth then from switcth to bypass board ,am i correct in thinking this ?



skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on April 21, 2009, 06:12:16 PM
yes
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on April 21, 2009, 06:28:04 PM
sorted thanks for everybodys help ;D


skal 1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 22, 2009, 03:30:02 AM
I probably overlook it but what should be done with the elco's between the PSU connector on the pm660 compressor board??? so the ones that are on both sides of the connector.
There is no value given and nothing in the BOM and on the silkscreen.
Are they optional? i think they are part to the high voltage section.

They're not needed as per Volker  ;)

OK, i allready thought so but now i'm sure :)
I wanted to know for sure before i all wired it up and then came to the conclussion that i needed it anyway and have to remove the boards again.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 22, 2009, 01:00:14 PM
Ok.. some progess..

One channel is 80% wired up and frontpanel and stepped switches are done and mostly wired.
Second channel has to wait a bit longer since i have 2 DOA edcors :(

The PSU is working.. well... not 100%.. i have a weird problem with the + and -17v, i have + and - 20v (approx) and whatever i do with the trimmers, the voltages stay the same. ???
I have tried a load of 500r to see if it needs a load but it's just giving these voltages and that's it.
What can go wrong here?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on April 22, 2009, 01:12:40 PM
the +/- 17V PSU is regulated, they don't need a load.
without mains power use the trim potentiometers, to one end, to the other end.
set them in the middle and try again with power.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 22, 2009, 01:22:43 PM
Ok.. some progess..

One channel is 80% wired up and frontpanel and stepped switches are done and mostly wired.
Second channel has to wait a bit longer since i have 2 DOA edcors :(

The PSU is working.. well... not 100%.. i have a weird problem with the + and -17v, i have + and - 20v (approx) and whatever i do with the trimmers, the voltages stay the same. ???
I have tried a load of 500r to see if it needs a load but it's just giving these voltages and that's it.
What can go wrong here?
Don't forget to look at the wiring guide to turn the good trimmer when testing, they're oposite order than output... I make the mistake at every change I do  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 22, 2009, 03:53:57 PM
Ok.. some progess..

One channel is 80% wired up and frontpanel and stepped switches are done and mostly wired.
Second channel has to wait a bit longer since i have 2 DOA edcors :(

The PSU is working.. well... not 100%.. i have a weird problem with the + and -17v, i have + and - 20v (approx) and whatever i do with the trimmers, the voltages stay the same. ???
I have tried a load of 500r to see if it needs a load but it's just giving these voltages and that's it.
What can go wrong here?
Don't forget to look at the wiring guide to turn the good trimmer when testing, they're oposite order than output... I make the mistake at every change I do  ;D ;D ;D

ahum... please don't call me stupid.  :-[
-17 and 12v sharp now.  8)
One channel even came alive now, at least it's giving sound and compression, only thing i have to do is set the trimmers and add a potmeter to the meter, it's pegging in the corner now.
But at least it's allready working!  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on April 22, 2009, 04:19:53 PM
ahum... please don't call me stupid.  :-[
If I call you stupid, I must call myself stupid as I spent some time with this !!!
Refer my note to self !!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on April 23, 2009, 02:58:00 AM
ahum... please don't call me stupid.  :-[
If I call you stupid, I must call myself stupid as I spent some time with this !!!
Refer my note to self !!!
;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 03, 2009, 03:03:26 PM
hey guys, I´m one of three independent poorman-builders striving with the exact same problem. We are all sitting around waiting for someone to enlighten us here at the forum, so that we can fire up our builds. We are hopefully very close…

The voltages from the 245V and 136V drops fast -when one or several tubes are inserted. The same thing happens with only one audio-pcb connected.

Similar problems have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but no solution has been presented as far as I can see.

When powering up the PM670 with all tubes inserted, the unit works and sounds good for a few seconds, (Meters work too), before the voltages dive from 245V (and 136V) to below 50V. (Heatervoltages 6.3V and -17V stays constant.) 

The audio-pcbs have been searched up and down for shorts, but I can’t find any.  And the PSU gives correct voltages with no load.

I have two IRF840A at Q4 and Q5.   I see little difference on the spec-sheets between IRF840A and IRF840B. So I guess 840A are ok?

So, IF there actually are no shorts on my PCB. Could the voltage drop be caused by the edcors´?  Could there be something wrong with Bernbrues group-buy power-tranny? Nah...  What can it be?  where does my voltages go?  Any hints would be greatly appreciated.


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on May 03, 2009, 03:25:30 PM
Hi,
verify, that C7 and C9 are ok. What about the tubes, are they ok? Check wiring from PSU to audio board. Check R10 of audio board as well, it burns when threshold pots are not connected. Check the wiring guide once again, especially if the transformers are connected the right way. What about the input and threshold pots? check their wiring twice, cause it´s quite complicated. I don´t think, that there is any mistake in the transformer, in case, measure secondaries as well. Good luck, mate.
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 03, 2009, 04:26:52 PM
Thanks Bernd,

The tubes should be ok, since the voltages drops with only one random tube inserted. I have an extra set of tung-sol 5687 which also has been tested.  Wiring triple checked now...  The transformers "see" 30K on their secondaries, so the attenuators should be ok too. right?  Will disconnect and check transformers later.


Anybody experienced something similar, and found a cure?

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on May 03, 2009, 05:58:09 PM
Hey inputoutput


I had a similar problem with my poor guy dipping voltages with load attach, i do not know much about this thing but if was you i would exchange those IRF840A type , just a suggestion, i got mine from here www.bitsbox.co.uk  worked first time  and they delivery world wide   :)


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on May 03, 2009, 10:50:22 PM
I've read through the thread and looked over the .pdf offerings and schemtic, but I can't find the fuse value.  I must be damn dense or have just read over it, so could someone post the mains AC (120) fuse value?

I'm finally down to doing a final parts order and then it's assembly time.  I can't wait as this thing is one of the coolest projects I've yet attempted.

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: another pm done
Post by: lewilson on May 05, 2009, 01:53:40 PM
Here are a couple of pix of my 670. I went cheap and used pots instead of rotary switches, It works great.
   I had some trouble early on with the power supply. I had to make some jumpers on the pc board due to some  damage I created while desoldering. If there ever is another chance to buy a power supply board put me first in line!

(http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss288/lewilsonmicrophones/pm670pic1.jpg)
(http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss288/lewilsonmicrophones/pm670pic.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on May 05, 2009, 08:02:07 PM
Wow.  Thanks for the photos.   :P

What the heck is that huge power transformer with the flag on it?  Are you happy with it?  I'm looking for a power transformer for mine.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on May 05, 2009, 09:20:58 PM
Wow.  Thanks for the photos.   :P

What the heck is that huge power transformer with the flag on it?  Are you happy with it?  I'm looking for a power transformer for mine.

It's a edcor, most likely the one made for the PM670 project. XPRW063 is whats on my box, but don't quote me..

BTW your not the only one who has lifted a pad on the pcb... in the +/- section on mine.

Like the old school Simpson meters you used.. Is that a meter zero pot placed on the front ?

Tell us a little more about the pots... IE what you used and or changed.. 25K pot?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lewilson on May 05, 2009, 10:54:54 PM
Yes, edcore power  transformer.  Zero adjust are 100 ohm cermet pots at front.
   I used 25k dual pots which work fine for threshold and input.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: giltmastering on May 05, 2009, 11:12:00 PM
about to solder resistors on my rotary switches.  have some questions and need help.
i'm trying to make sure that pin 1 & 2 is the lowest resistor position with the 178ohm resistor?
which is also counter clockwise all the way left on the dial, right?
so then all the way clockwise right would give us position 24... resistor value 1620, correct?

also,  if the threshold switch is wired exactly as the input...  does that give us more compression or less compression when turned right, clockwise? 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 06, 2009, 12:46:20 PM
Gettin close to done with my PM but need a bit of help with the "uraltone" switches.  I've got all resistors in place and Im a bit concerned about the interconnects to them. 
T1 connects to both decks 1st resistor
Middle pin from the gain header connects to the 24th position resistors and daisychains across both decks
Pins 1 and 3 from the gain header connect to the small lugs between both decks closest to the first set of resistors?

Is this correct, On the uraltone switch there are two sets of lugs, not sure why there are two sets. Are there two for using the switch CCW?

Thanks fellas!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 06, 2009, 01:17:04 PM
about to solder resistors on my rotary switches.  have some questions and need help.
i'm trying to make sure that pin 1 & 2 is the lowest resistor position with the 178ohm resistor?
which is also counter clockwise all the way left on the dial, right?
so then all the way clockwise right would give us position 24... resistor value 1620, correct?

also,  if the threshold switch is wired exactly as the input...  does that give us more compression or less compression when turned right, clockwise? 
On the way to put the resistors, you're right.
Turning clocwise the threshold pot actually gives you more compression.

Gettin close to done with my PM but need a bit of help with the "uraltone" switches.  I've got all resistors in place and Im a bit concerned about the interconnects to them. 
T1 connects to both decks 1st resistor
Middle pin from the gain header connects to the 24th position resistors and daisychains across both decks
Pins 1 and 3 from the gain header connect to the small lugs between both decks closest to the first set of resistors?

Is this correct, On the uraltone switch there are two sets of lugs, not sure why there are two sets. Are there two for using the switch CCW?

Thanks fellas!
The 2 descks replaces 2 ganged pots (look at the schemo)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 06, 2009, 01:22:40 PM
Lolo
I think I could have worded that better.  The two sets of lugs Im refering to are what I assume to be the outputs of each deck,  just not sure why there are two sets and which set I should use.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 06, 2009, 02:01:47 PM
Lolo
I think I could have worded that better.  The two sets of lugs Im refering to are what I assume to be the outputs of each deck,  just not sure why there are two sets and which set I should use.
If I did undertand well that time, you're talking about the 2 legs on each desk... Didn't test on mine, but if I remember well they're connected together... Certainly to help (or not ::)) soldering or placement... I did use the first one (the closer to resistor one).
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: giltmastering on May 06, 2009, 06:36:32 PM
thanks for the answer lolo.
i was thinking of making the threshold the other way around,
where turning it counter clockwise gives me more compression....
so, i might just wire that part backwards.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on May 06, 2009, 06:56:40 PM
 :o  I didn't realize Edcor made a PS transformer for this project.  I vaguely remember it being mentioned, didn't realize it went through. 

Is XPRW063 the correct part number? 

Was it a special group buy? 

I'll call them for availability, but just wanted to hear from you guys first...  It seems it would work for many other tube projects as well.

Have you guys had any circuit noise radiation problems with it?

Is it as quiet as a toroid?

thanks.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lewilson on May 06, 2009, 10:09:19 PM
There is a bit of hum. Its very low. I have not measured it yet,maybe - 80 or -85db
    I left space for a mu metal shield that is not shown in the picture. When its in place there is no hum at all. I place the shield next to the audio transformers closest to the pt.
   I think if you placed the audio transformers a little more carefully  than I did this would not be a problem.
 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on May 07, 2009, 01:04:35 AM
:o  I didn't realize Edcor made a PS transformer for this project.  I vaguely remember it being mentioned, didn't realize it went through. 

Is XPRW063 the correct part number? 

Was it a special group buy? 

I'll call them for availability, but just wanted to hear from you guys first...  It seems it would work for many other tube projects as well.

Have you guys had any circuit noise radiation problems with it?

Is it as quiet as a toroid?

thanks.

Made to order.

Make sure it's grounded well (like Drip recommends on the Dripopto) and has a good Star ground based on the case. I use lock washers all around and make sure it bites in a bit.

It's not a toroid so you loose those aspects.

If I remember right it was like $45
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: giltmastering on May 09, 2009, 10:47:09 PM
would anyone besides me like to get a Toroidal supply for this unit?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: tommypiper on May 10, 2009, 02:16:52 PM
would anyone besides me like to get a Toroidal supply for this unit?


Yes.  I'm still collecting parts for mine; (my usual slow schedule due to wild kids and a full plate of domestic duties and issues).   ;)

I contacted Haeboer several times to request shielded toroids.  I believe they make good audio-quality toroids, and I think shielding is a good investment.    But they have continually dropped the ball and don't reply or follow through.  If we could get an order of 10 or more we might get their attention and better service.  I could order 6 myself for various compatible tube projects... how many would you want?  Where were you thinking of ordering yours?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Brolik on May 10, 2009, 02:19:00 PM
yup, I'd be in for one of those as well
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 10, 2009, 05:39:48 PM
Following up on my previous post a few days ago. As mentioned, the voltages dropped fast when one or several tubes were inserted.  So now, finally got my voltages right, also with tubes.   i've been looking for shorts on the audio-pcbs for weeks, but it must have been something with the voltage-regulators.  I changed them from two IRF840A into two IRF840B !   Looking at the voltage-regulators spec-sheets, I don't see why this should make much difference, but it does certainly work now. Another option might be that I had too much thermal compound, and that the heat didn't transfer fast enough.  Anyway, it could also be the 840B that made the difference. So all you guys struggling with voltage-drops. Take a look at the those regulators again.

I am glad I bought a big chassis, cause placing of the Edcors play a important part in lovering hum and noise.  So I'll move those around, and post a report as soon as I'm happy with the result.

------------

small question : I've got 0.8 VAC in my heaters.   Does  a little AC in heaters matter in tube equipment?


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on May 10, 2009, 06:51:02 PM
Quote
small question : I've got 0.8 VAC in my heaters.   Does  a little AC in heaters matter in tube equipment?
How did you measured 0.8V AC?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 10, 2009, 07:45:00 PM
hey Moby! ,

Measured AC between the ground and + on the Heater PSU output. Can also be seen with my scope.  Do you think I Should put a cap in-between?

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on May 10, 2009, 08:36:26 PM
OK, if you measured by scope that's accurate  ;D Well, filament can be done AC, most vintage equipment was done that way but since we have cheap diode bridge  and capacitors today it's piece of cake to make it DC. If you don't have any hum leave it as it is but if the 50 or 60 hum is present than consider some more capacitance smoothing on the board (near tubes).
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 11, 2009, 03:26:11 AM
small question : I've got 0.8 VAC in my heaters.
It's a result of the high current eated by the heaters... The AC you see is what caps can't absorb...

Does  a little AC in heaters matter in tube equipment?
We're in push-pull technology here, so you shouldn't ear any hum caused by heaters... Original Fairchild's heaters are fed by pure AC... So I bet we won't have any problem with this little AC !!!
Anyway, if you use NOS tubes, let the heaters burn during about 48 hours... After that, the heaters will heat less current and this AC should be lower...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 11, 2009, 11:31:53 AM
ok, thanks Lolo-m! 

Tested different caps, but it didn't seem very effective on the AC voltage anyway.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 11, 2009, 03:31:56 PM
Think I'm almost done with mine now. Will use it in the studio for a week or two to get to know it before I wrap it up. Specs are pretty decent.  Placement of trafos, metal-covers and wiring is important to get the noisefloor down.

It is easy to make vintage-looking meters. Just buy a new one, and stuff it in an old case.  A little pictorial :

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/vu-1.jpg)

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/vu-2.jpg)

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/vu-3.jpg)

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/vu-4.jpg)

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/vu-5.jpg)

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/PM670-gutz.jpg)

(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/PM670-gutzzz.jpg)

two new buddies
(http://www.kaada.no/DIY/DIY-670/buddies.jpg)

BIG thanks to Analag / [silent:arts]
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on May 11, 2009, 03:39:00 PM
Love your design.

..are those cases from modushop btw?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 11, 2009, 03:58:22 PM
yes they are

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Holger on May 11, 2009, 04:02:47 PM
@Inputoutput, cool meter idea. Maybe we should start a new thread: meter modding :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: ultra-alex on May 11, 2009, 04:13:57 PM
impressive! holy sh*t...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 11, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
very cool looking unit 8) 8) 8)
and good to hear you sorted the PSU problem out :D
for now I would vote for the best looking PoorMan right now.
but be careful, others might follow ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: crisotop on May 12, 2009, 02:54:38 AM
wow!  :o :o :o Very nice looking unit indeed!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lewilson on May 14, 2009, 05:22:29 PM
Id like to thank  Analog and silent arts for a great project.Im enjoying my compressor.Thanks
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: ChuckD on May 14, 2009, 05:32:45 PM
Wow very cool looking units! Love your design! very tough.




Hey Tommy and giltmastering count me in on the Transformer for this unit.
I need one as well. I too am lagging on this project but now want to get it finished.

-Chuck
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 14, 2009, 05:49:58 PM
ChuckD, Tommy and giltmastering, I think it's time to make a Black Market thread...
This thread is pretty long as is :P, isn't it ?
Put PM 660 and PM 670 and transfo in the name, I think you'll have every interrested people...
And post a link on this thread  ;).
Title: Another One Crosses the Finish Line
Post by: idylldon on May 14, 2009, 07:25:09 PM
Thanks again to silent:arts and analag for such an amazing project.  For a variety of reasons I didn't need/want a rack case for this one, so I used an old PA head cabinet that I've had lying around for quite a while.  The VU meters are some old Hoyts, and that little aluminum band between them hides the meter lights, which work on 12 volts.

The VU meter zero adjustment pots are accessible using a small screwdriver through the top louver just to the side of the relevant meter.

(http://www3.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/af7ca6ffb7d0a41294fdecce5e3f4c140760ce1c76569e2c89ee25d6d5e6822f5g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=xsinr99t2ljtfzb&thumb=4)

The bottom:

(http://www1.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/23ab66df97e4439db61e45fb568c7b165g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=ymzedfmjien&thumb=4)

One final one with the lid off:

(http://www3.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/a713bb0900e27281768dbe681639a0f46g.jpg) (http://www.mediafire.com/imageview.php?quickkey=3wt3jzw2mfj&thumb=4)

There were no surprises when I fired it up, and it only took a few minutes to adjust all the voltages.  The high-voltage supplies are pretty much right on.  Once I dial in the 6.3 supply I'll purchase the correct value resistor and get rid of the adjustable one.  

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: inputoutput on May 15, 2009, 01:50:09 AM
cooool... very nice looking! great work man

since my last post, I turned some of the edcores a 45 degrees angle from each-other.  Plus, added some more metal-walls in between. The noisefloor dropped an additional 4dB. I´m down with a almost not notable hum at -82dBu. Which I can live with.   

The Heater-psu-boards  picks up a lot of noise from the toroid, so if you use those, place the heater-psu's as far away from the power-toroid and power-wires as possible.  Shove as much metal as possible in-between.  You should also test not using the heater-psu boards if you are experimenting with lowering the hum.

The soundsamples previously posted in this thread do not do this unit justice.  I´m blown away by how good the Poorman is.  Analag has done a fantastic job. Looking forward to the next projects coming from your hand Analag! can´t wait.

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 15, 2009, 03:10:50 AM
WOW :o :o :o
they are getting more and more creative, I love it ;D ;D ;D
cool build, congratulations.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 15, 2009, 03:54:43 AM
WOW :o :o :o
they are getting more and more creative, I love it ;D ;D ;D
cool build, congratulations.
I definitively agree with you !!!
Nice work, I wish I could be so creative but I'm not :'(...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on May 15, 2009, 09:39:45 AM
The Heater-psu-boards  picks up a lot of noise from the toroid, ....

I don't get this...but I'm trying here> the slow start heater boards are picking up hum from the toroid which translates in heater ripple or something like that?
I thought that picking up hum was reserved for audio connections only .


O, and that's very tasty idylldon!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mich on May 15, 2009, 11:19:45 AM
Wow Again!  i think Virile is the best word for both of your units...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on May 15, 2009, 12:29:35 PM
Congrats,
idylldon´s and inputoutput`s poormen are hot candidates for "DIY of the week", what do I say, "DIY of the year". Though I love mine very much, I´m a little bit jealous of your "old style" gear. Excellent!!
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on May 15, 2009, 02:14:06 PM
Thanks for the kind words, folks.  As for being creative, well, I couldn't possibly have done this without analag's amazing design creativity and [silent:arts'] extremely detailed and well-thought-out PCB work.  Kudos to both of you (and all those who have shared their knowledge on this project while working through the build) for sharing this amazing compressor with those of us who still find the design part of electronics beyond our grasp.  My studio wouldn't be nearly as well equipped without your kindness and willingness to help.  Thank you very much.

My DIY score since joining this forum:

6 -- 1176
2 -- GSSL (w/turbo)
2 -- LA2A
1 -- Poorman 670
1 -- Two-channel Neve BA183 line amps used to balance the output of my Neotek when I want that certain color.

All of these are serving me quite well in my studio. 

Next up?  Guavatone's Orange 86 project.  Once my wallet has a chance to recover from the 670, I'll be building a dual-channel 86.

BTW, one of my IRF840s is getting quite a bit hotter than the other one.  Is this normal?  All the voltages are right on and I think everything's OK, but I thought I'd ask.  Since my power supply is mounted upside down, I'll most likely add a small quiet fan to help move some air through the enclosed part of the chassis.

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: syn on May 15, 2009, 02:22:02 PM
inputoutput and idylldon  , very inspiring and good looking units.
very, very tasty.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 16, 2009, 02:18:16 PM
yes, they are looking good ! after a while, I just ordered all the missing parts (rotary switch resistors, heater pcb stuff etc.) so I hope mine will be finished soon.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: edcorusa on May 22, 2009, 12:06:27 PM
Just to let you know that EDCOR has setup a section on their website for Project Specials and has added the transformer packages for the PM660 and PM670.

Product Specials (http://www.edcorusa.com/Products/BrowseTypes.aspx?DepID=17)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 22, 2009, 12:57:54 PM
cool  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 23, 2009, 02:35:04 PM
Im a bit confused on the Q1 isolated from ground.   How do I accomplish this isolation?  From the looks of the layout I just solder it in.

I searched but couldnt find out how to mount Q1, can someone please explain? :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 23, 2009, 05:10:26 PM
Just solder it in.
Mount it isolated to the heat sink.
that is the point to save your live if touching ...
(no harm to the circuit if mounted uninsulated)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 23, 2009, 06:06:48 PM
some pictures of my project, still awaiting the LM338 for the heater psu board.

http://picasaweb.google.com/geefmijmaarelektro/Poorman67Project#
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 24, 2009, 01:37:09 PM
Just solder it in.
Mount it isolated to the heat sink.
that is the point to save your live if touching ...
(no harm to the circuit if mounted uninsulated)

Im still unclear?  What does it mean to mount Q1 isolated from the heatsink?  And we are talking about Q1 on the audio boards?

Sorry, it does sound important.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on May 24, 2009, 02:24:04 PM
Just solder it in.
Mount it isolated to the heat sink.
that is the point to save your live if touching ...
(no harm to the circuit if mounted uninsulated)

Im still unclear?  What does it mean to mount Q1 isolated from the heatsink?  And we are talking about Q1 on the audio boards?

Sorry, it does sound important.

There are insulation "kits" used to isolate regulators and the like from heatsinks.  Basically, they consist of an electrically non-conductive gasket (fishpaper, mica, etc.) that goes between the regulator and the heatsink and a sleeve ("top hat" washer) that electrically isolates the screw that connects the regulator to the heatsink (or you can just use a nylon screw/nut instead of using the sleeve, though some folks don't approve of this method).  The result is the regulator is isolated electrically from the heatsink but still passes the heat on to it.  To test, you just check continuity from the mounting screw to the heatsink.  If there's any connection, then the isolation isn't working. 

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on May 24, 2009, 02:44:20 PM
I am still working on mine, turns out I need another power toroid, would anyone by chance have an extra for sale?

thanks

Howard
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 24, 2009, 03:36:03 PM
OK, Got it.  So until I do that just don't touch that Q1 or heatsink.  Fired the beast up and have perfect voltage across the board!  Under load right now!  Gonna test her out.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on May 24, 2009, 03:52:38 PM
Quote
(or you can just use a nylon screw/nut instead of using the sleeve, though some folks don't approve of this method)
Nylon is not suitable for this because it melts and loose tension. Thermal connection must be tight and it's possible only with metal part. Well, maybe Teflon screw can do the job but I never tried such a thing because ordinary m3 do the job perfectly  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 24, 2009, 03:54:05 PM
One more Question,  I should set the rv3 and rv6 to Analags voltages[RV3 is adjusted to -2.4V and RV6 is set to -4.5V] on page 20 then zero out the meter with a 5k trimmer?  This babys sweet like MONEY ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: kazper on May 24, 2009, 04:16:58 PM
I am still working on mine, turns out I need another power toroid, would anyone by chance have an extra for sale?

thanks



Howard

Edcor sells a standard type power transformer also.

XPWR063.

Not to pimp out any distributors etc...
http://www.edcorusa.com/Products/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=685


Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 24, 2009, 05:14:26 PM
I have this toroidal power transformer, and it has 2x 115 volt wires (2x white, 2x yellow)
I would like to connect it as a 230 volt transformer, does it matter wich wires I connect together ?

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: stereokillah on May 24, 2009, 05:26:47 PM
hi,
probably the first white with the second yellow.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 24, 2009, 06:35:17 PM
thanks, that's just what I thought, but only to be sure... :)

just started matching resistors and soldering them to the elma switches... this is actually less difficult than it seems.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: stereokillah on May 24, 2009, 06:55:57 PM
i know i did it one week ago for 4 switch but not elma it's very long.
but i don't how to link it i've checked the wiring guide but i've only two point on my swicth.
http://cgi.ebay.fr/New-24-step-DIY-Selector-switch-2-pole-Attenuator-Pot_W0QQitemZ110391296000QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Connectors_Switches_Wire?hash=item19b3d58000&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1526|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A2|294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.fr/New-24-step-DIY-Selector-switch-2-pole-Attenuator-Pot_W0QQitemZ110391296000QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Connectors_Switches_Wire?hash=item19b3d58000&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1526|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A2|294%3A50)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: stereokillah on May 24, 2009, 07:03:48 PM
i think the point are the first, the return and the end
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 25, 2009, 06:56:13 AM
now I am looking at the pot resistor spreadsheet,it seems to be in reverse order, or isn't it ?
it seems logical to me that the most counter-clockwise position #one (or zero, whatever your switch says) is the position with the lowest gain and more resistance.

please, someone ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 25, 2009, 07:35:19 AM
na, there is nothing reversed  ;)
think of potentiometers.
in CCW position the wiper is 0Ω to pin one, and 15KΩ to pin three, pin one to three is 15KΩ.
in CW position the wiper is 15KΩ to pin one, and 0Ω to pin three, pin one to three is still 15KΩ.
now in the poorman, position one (CCW) on the switch gives you a 2x15KΩ resistance in between the tubes and the input transformer.
and since the positive and the negative side of the symmetrical signal are shorted there won't be any signal left.
full on (CW) you have 0Ω between the transformer and the tubes, but 2x15KΩ between "hot" and "cold".
this will be louder ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 25, 2009, 08:41:05 AM
tricky !

now I know why there is this wire between the two decks. it took me 15 minutes to get it  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: stereokillah on May 25, 2009, 10:26:59 AM
ok it's always 2x15ohm between the cold and hot and the variable between tube and transformer.

It's very good explain thank you
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 26, 2009, 09:54:07 AM
Sup fellas!

Got the PM fired up and the voltages under load are stable.  Right channel sounds awesome!

Left channel... not so good. 

The gain seems to work fine as I can match the input signal on the output well.  however the threshold is acting strange.  If in the first position with no attenuation meter pegs right.  as I lower the threshold nothing happens until maybe the 6th position when the signal gets smacked extremely hard with compression.  the meter reads -15dB.  from there as I lower the threshold it continues to compress more.  Also the attack switch pins the needle right in any position other than the 3rd.  The only dif I can find is that the attack switch was wired lugs 7-12 and the C lug rather than 1-6 and the A lug.  Its a 2*6 lorlin.  Should I have programed this switch starting on the 7th poistion and locking it at the 1st and using the A lug or should I pull it out and go 1-6 with A?

Any thoughts?  This Babys gonna rock real soon!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 26, 2009, 11:31:53 AM
Now I have noticed that the frontmost 5687 on the bad channel has no silvered surface area in the top of the tube.  I looks like it burnt out or something..  All thats there is a small white stain.  Any thoughts on how this could have happened?  Im figure this is what my problem is but am hoping that the tube was bad from the go and will not happen again!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on May 26, 2009, 11:34:39 AM
Small white stain where the silver getter material was sounds like you've lost vacuum in that tube.   Air leak around a pin when stressed on insertion, possibly. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 26, 2009, 11:37:30 AM
Grrrr... I hope I can still get a match for this damn nos tube!  Thanks for the reply!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 26, 2009, 05:22:58 PM
Replaced bad tube and checked out all of the interconnects and soldering to no avail.  Still getting a major crush at 5th position of threshold switch.  Any ideas?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on May 26, 2009, 08:32:37 PM
I have mine wired up, and it passes audio in bypass, but I am getting nothing when it's engaged. and the needle remains pegged as high as it will go. I am stumped
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: giltmastering on May 26, 2009, 10:20:40 PM
Replaced bad tube and checked out all of the interconnects and soldering to no avail.  Still getting a major crush at 5th position of threshold switch.  Any ideas?

have you tried swapping the rotary switches with the working side just make sure your issue is not in the switch?

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 27, 2009, 04:26:01 AM
I have mine wired up, and it passes audio in bypass, but I am getting nothing when it's engaged. and the needle remains pegged as high as it will go. I am stumped

- check all voltages
- check if you wired the bypass PCB correctly (or try it without the bypass PCB)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 27, 2009, 10:59:00 AM
Replaced bad tube and checked out all of the interconnects and soldering to no avail.  Still getting a major crush at 5th position of threshold switch.  Any ideas?

have you tried swapping the rotary switches with the working side just make sure your issue is not in the switch?



I was gonna try that today figuring I could at least figure out if the problems in the board or the switches. 
Thanks, will report back!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 27, 2009, 10:39:09 PM
Hm, now I have the input switches ready, but what about the treshold switches ? Should they be just the same as the input switches ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 28, 2009, 02:55:39 AM
Hm, now I have the input switches ready, but what about the treshold switches ? Should they be just the same as the input switches ?
if you made normal rev log input switches the answer is yes
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 28, 2009, 05:38:47 AM
Hm, now I have the input switches ready, but what about the treshold switches ? Should they be just the same as the input switches ?

If your input switches are filled as pots (-inf to 0dB), yes they are the same... If you filled your input switches as -20dB to 0dB, you should fill the threshold switches as pots to have the possibility not to compress in comp on mode.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on May 28, 2009, 06:13:47 AM
If your input switches are filled as pots (-inf to 0dB), yes they are the same... If you filled your input switches as -20dB to 0dB, you should fill the threshold switches as pots to have the possibility not to compress in comp on mode.

Nice one! 
 So what would work best as threshold pot? Log or lin? Anyone experiemented with both yet?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on May 28, 2009, 06:24:45 AM
Apparently a log (pot or rotary switch series) will work best with the "threshold/compress" switch as well. Someone in this thread tested it and with linear it apparently only "digs" at the audio (with modern levels) at about half or one quadrant of the pot/rotary. With log you get more even spread.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 28, 2009, 06:26:06 AM
thanks, I used the resistors just as the log to pot spreadsheet says, 0 to 15k ohm. so I should just use the same for the treshold ones ? sorry for being stupid :P

radiance, I am curious about your project, where are you having your frontpanel done ? just Schaeffer ? maybe you could help me out with this...

Jimi
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on May 28, 2009, 06:33:33 AM
Earlier on this thread it was also discussed that 0 to 15k ohm range is pointless here, and you are only limiting your rotary switch precision with this. It goes to full attenuation, which is just not needed on compressor. You will get stupid large 6-10dB steps on the attenuator on the most important part of the gain range.

The "make up" gain stage part of the poorman has about 18dB of gain. This means that you basically want about 22dB or so of attenuation range for the rotary switch. It has been discussed in detail earlier in this thread and I strongly suggest everyone read it before soldering (or even ordering) their range of rotary switch resistors. Links to great dual attenuator gain range calculators have been posted, and these are invaluable. Even suggested values.

The same 22dB (or so) range for the threshold/compression attenuator is quite ideal as well.

[edit]

here is the good calculator I and several others have used:

http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~nroberts/atten.html

Here's how I did mine (picked close enough resistors so that total range was 15000ohm)

Step 1, Attenuation = 22 dB, Rx = 13809 ohms, Ry = 1191 ohms, Resistor = 1191 ohms.
Step 2, Attenuation = 20 dB, Rx = 13500 ohms, Ry = 1500 ohms, Resistor = 309 ohms.
Step 3, Attenuation = 19 dB, Rx = 13317 ohms, Ry = 1683 ohms, Resistor = 183 ohms.
Step 4, Attenuation = 18 dB, Rx = 13112 ohms, Ry = 1888 ohms, Resistor = 205 ohms.
Step 5, Attenuation = 17 dB, Rx = 12881 ohms, Ry = 2119 ohms, Resistor = 231 ohms.
Step 6, Attenuation = 16 dB, Rx = 12623 ohms, Ry = 2377 ohms, Resistor = 258 ohms.
Step 7, Attenuation = 15 dB, Rx = 12333 ohms, Ry = 2667 ohms, Resistor = 290 ohms.
Step 8, Attenuation = 14 dB, Rx = 12007 ohms, Ry = 2993 ohms, Resistor = 326 ohms.
Step 9, Attenuation = 13 dB, Rx = 11642 ohms, Ry = 3358 ohms, Resistor = 365 ohms.
Step 10, Attenuation = 12 dB, Rx = 11232 ohms, Ry = 3768 ohms, Resistor = 410 ohms.
Step 11, Attenuation = 11 dB, Rx = 10772 ohms, Ry = 4228 ohms, Resistor = 460 ohms.
Step 12, Attenuation = 10 dB, Rx = 10257 ohms, Ry = 4743 ohms, Resistor = 515 ohms.
Step 13, Attenuation = 9 dB, Rx = 9678 ohms, Ry = 5322 ohms, Resistor = 579 ohms.
Step 14, Attenuation = 8 dB, Rx = 9028 ohms, Ry = 5972 ohms, Resistor = 650 ohms.
Step 15, Attenuation = 7 dB, Rx = 8300 ohms, Ry = 6700 ohms, Resistor = 728 ohms.
Step 16, Attenuation = 6 dB, Rx = 7482 ohms, Ry = 7518 ohms, Resistor = 818 ohms.
Step 17, Attenuation = 5 dB, Rx = 6565 ohms, Ry = 8435 ohms, Resistor = 917 ohms.
Step 18, Attenuation = 4 dB, Rx = 5536 ohms, Ry = 9464 ohms, Resistor = 1029 ohms.
Step 19, Attenuation = 3 dB, Rx = 4381 ohms, Ry = 10619 ohms, Resistor = 1155 ohms.
Step 20, Attenuation = 2 dB, Rx = 3085 ohms, Ry = 11915 ohms, Resistor = 1296 ohms.
Step 21, Attenuation = 1 dB, Rx = 1631 ohms, Ry = 13369 ohms, Resistor = 1454 ohms.
Step 22, Attenuation = 0 dB, Rx = 0 ohms, Ry = 15000 ohms, Resistor = 1631 ohms.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on May 28, 2009, 07:00:39 AM
thanks, I used the resistors just as the log to pot spreadsheet says, 0 to 15k ohm. so I should just use the same for the treshold ones ? sorry for being stupid :P

radiance, I am curious about your project, where are you having your frontpanel done ? just Schaeffer ? maybe you could help me out with this...

Jimi


Jim, I'm no were near the fronpanel design stage...it will probably be schaeffer or maybe Frank Röllen
Either way, design will be done in FPD. What help do you want? Mind you, I'm living in France now... you're welcome to come over though. ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 28, 2009, 07:12:50 AM
in France ? huh  :o ;D well, we are going to france this July, so maybe  ;D

I'm getting more and more confused about these attenuators, I thought that spreadsheet was the found solution but apparrently it isn't ?!

 would like to know what values other people have used for the gain and treshold attenuators, and if they are happy with their choice.

as being not as a tech wonder like most people here, I'm trying !



my machine in progress:

(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7634/meer.th.jpg) (http://img33.imageshack.us/my.php?image=meer.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on May 28, 2009, 08:44:04 AM
Just re-read the thread again if the above still didn't help. No point in posting the same thing over and over again. This has been discussed extensively.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: elektrovolt on May 28, 2009, 08:55:33 AM
heck, I  think it is better to buy a few stereo pots for testing. I can't find any 15k pots, but 22k should be fine, I think.

still learning to DIY  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 28, 2009, 09:33:48 AM
UH OH :'(  In checking my non functional channel I removed both pcbs from the psu.  I put the left channel in place of the right and rewired to the psu.  When I powered up the unit I got a major explosive elec discharge(not me but the unit) somwhere back near the irf820.  After this happened I lost both of the high voltage rails but the trans is still working fine.  They dropped to 2 or 3 volts while the 12 and 17 volt rails were fine.  Im confused as to why this occured.  Could it have been that there was only one channel loaded?  Everything was perfect except for the problems in the left channel before I did the swap.  Im also assuming that to cure the dead voltages I will have to replace the 820 and 840 since I cant find any other damaged components?  
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 28, 2009, 10:47:38 AM
BTW,  I found a tube supplier here in Cleveland.  Actually about 25 minutes south of Cleveland.  http://www.oldradioparts.com/       330-558-0247  He sold me 4 Tung Sol 5687 tubes for 28 bucks even.  Less than half price of tube depot.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on May 28, 2009, 11:34:30 AM
Never try this at home  :o
(http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users16/sanasha/default/large-msg-123992753865.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 28, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
replaced 820 and 840 to no avail.  High Voltages are still dead. At this point I have 0V on both rails, then 12, 17, and 6.3 on the others. Any thoughts on what I might do to fix the problem?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on May 28, 2009, 12:06:10 PM
replaced 820 and 840 to no avail.  High Voltages are still dead. At this point I have 0V on both rails, then 12, 17, and 6.3 on the others. Any thoughts on what I might do to fix the problem?

You mentioned the the transformer was fine after the short, but have you checked it directly?  What do the secondaries measure at the transformer?

Remember, if you're not using insulating gaskets/washers on the 840 and 820, the heatsinks have voltage on them.  Did one of them short somehow?

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 28, 2009, 01:08:34 PM
I measured the output voltage at the input of the psu board.  They all read fine.  At work now but I recall measuring that right away fearing that I really F'd it somehow.    Now I really have come to understand the idea of of isolating your regulators. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 28, 2009, 07:14:53 PM
I measured the output voltage at the input of the psu board.  They all read fine.  At work now but I recall measuring that right away fearing that I really F'd it somehow.    Now I really have come to understand the idea of of isolating your regulators. 
If you have to change the IRF, put 2 IRF840 and not IRF820 + IRF840. Some poeple had problem with the 820 and the 840 handle more power/tension without any change in the result. It seam to be safer to use 2 x IRF840...
And yes, INSULATED from the heatsink. The metal part of the IRF are at +130V or +240V or so (don't remember) and the heatsink is grounded. The paint of the heatsing can do some kind of insulation (sometimes, if you're lucky) but if something is moving there's an electric contact between the two and so some sparks  :'(...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on May 28, 2009, 07:34:46 PM
Hmm, I remember measuring the heatsinks and finding them to be ungrounded.   
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on May 28, 2009, 07:52:28 PM
Hmm, I remember measuring the heatsinks and finding them to be ungrounded.   
Yes, it's not connected to the ground plane at PCB but we are "grounded" so insulated FET's is recommended ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: EmRR on May 28, 2009, 07:55:14 PM
Sure; thought I was remembering correctly. 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on May 29, 2009, 03:35:53 AM
Hmm, I remember measuring the heatsinks and finding them to be ungrounded.   
Yes, it's not connected to the ground plane at PCB but we are "grounded" so insulated FET's is recommended ;D
Grounded or not grounded, the FET heatsinks can touch themselves (they're really really close) and there's different voltages on them so, insulation is not only recommended but necessary... On my PM670, I measured the metal part of the IRF voltages : 340V on one and 240V on the other. If they're not insulated there's 100V between the two heatsinks  :o :o :o.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 29, 2009, 09:35:04 AM
OK this is making more sense.  Is it just the IRFs that should be insulated or the 337 and 317 as well as q1 on the audio boards?  Ive been searching mouser and digikey but for the life of me I cant find the insulators.  Anyone have a part number for these?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on May 29, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
OK this is making more sense.  Is it just the IRFs that should be insulated or the 337 and 317 as well as q1 on the audio boards?  Ive been searching mouser and digikey but for the life of me I cant find the insulators.  Anyone have a part number for these?
No need to insulate 337/317 if they are not on the same heatsink, same with Q1. here's the link
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsQtlBhqKq43cWWDPGVV2IS
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on May 29, 2009, 12:45:23 PM
No need to insulate 337/317 if they are not on the same heatsink, same with Q1. here's the link
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=sGAEpiMZZMsQtlBhqKq43cWWDPGVV2IS
but since it is cheap it doesn't hurt either ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Apache5 on May 29, 2009, 02:21:23 PM
Mouser has 532-4880M insulators for TO-220 case type... (these are mica)

Arnau
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: W DeMarco on May 29, 2009, 04:10:39 PM
Awesome!  Thanks guys
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on May 31, 2009, 03:10:48 PM
I got my PM660 to pass audio, but  it's still not compressing, when then Time Constant is in position 6 the needle on the VU drops into range and it will move a little, the gain switch seems to work, the threshold has little effect though.

The power has been on for about half an hour and now the needle is going up and down all on it's own.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on May 31, 2009, 06:57:32 PM
I just want to make sure, the trimmers RV3=-2.4V and RV6=-4.5V? and these measurements are taken off pin two (center pin or whiper) of the trimmers? I have them both turned all the way down and I am getting -.005V and I can't get it any lower.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 03, 2009, 07:46:17 PM
My anoart is  act up , for some reason the bass is rolled of and when compressing it is only acting on the snare .

Has anybody got an idea about what could be causing this


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lofi on June 03, 2009, 07:52:04 PM
snares too loud? try seeing if theres second or third harmonics using valuable head space

i'll get me coat
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 03, 2009, 08:03:14 PM
i think the low end is being filtered out some how i know this because  when in bypass the bass is there its mad..

skal1

Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 04, 2009, 06:23:33 AM
 ;D found the problem , dry joint on the gain switch..

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 05, 2009, 01:49:27 PM
here it is! another living poorman!  ;D

(http://www.dagoosemusic.nl/temp/pm-1.jpg)
(http://www.dagoosemusic.nl/temp/pm-2.jpg)
(http://www.dagoosemusic.nl/temp/pm-3.jpg)

I had it nearly finished on the bench for about 1.5 months.. i had to wait about that time for 2 DOA edcors to arrive :(
But i got 'm in today and so i finished it and it's doing a great, smooth job and so far i'm happy with it.
Panel is done with lasertran and a smooth lacauer for wooden floors painted with a brush to give it an old skool look and i think it worked out great! If you see it in real live it's really cool and 'white wash'.  ;D

Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt, without tubes they go up higher but with all tubes in both boards read the same voltage. anyone?
I also have to add some resistance in parallel with the meter null pot, it's hard to zero it now though an exiting to get it at exactly 0 now... whehehe

Thanks for this great project guys!  :-*
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 05, 2009, 02:04:54 PM
COOOOOOLLLL  8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
another one is born.
great work, and the first one I see with the moby heater PSU.

don't worry about 5,9 volt heaters, this is not nice on the paper but fine in practice.

have to edit the first post ...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: bernbrue on June 05, 2009, 02:11:59 PM
Hey, that´s a nice one. I like the white touch very much. Haven´t I seen this frontpanel layout before?? !! ;)  ;D ;D
regards
Bernd
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on June 05, 2009, 02:58:01 PM
Great job! Whats your source for those meters ?(e-parts?)
Having build both D-AOC and poorman...how do they compare according to you? (I've asked bernbrue as well but would like to know your thoughts...)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 05, 2009, 03:16:52 PM
Quote
Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt, without tubes they go up higher but with all tubes in both boards read the same voltage. anyone?
Well it's not a problem at all but please tell me does the voltage drops in front of Slow start PCB or just after?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 05, 2009, 05:42:08 PM
Quote
Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt, without tubes they go up higher but with all tubes in both boards read the same voltage. anyone?
Well it's not a problem at all but please tell me does the voltage drops in front of Slow start PCB or just after?

ok, have to check that.. both boards have about the same max voltage but without tubes it's easy to get 6.3v with the trimmer about 50% open.
I think it's a load thing?
Now that i think about it.. could be the regulator, it's running quite hot and i think with only one board running (the missing trafo's) i had 6.3v.
ok.. time for some checking this weekend.  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 05, 2009, 05:47:19 PM
Great job! Whats your source for those meters ?(e-parts?)
Having build both D-AOC and poorman...how do they compare according to you? (I've asked bernbrue as well but would like to know your thoughts...)

I got 'm at canford http://www.canford.co.uk/Products/58-379-SIFAM-AUDIO-LEVEL-METER-AL20SQ-Retro
Not like really 'cheap' but i think it was worth it.

I haven't really seriously played with it but a quick comapre says me that the poorman in more like a smoother compressor then the d-aoc, that one can do it's job and you will actually hear it and the poorman does it's job 'unheared' But like i said, i didn't give it a serious listen. I will make some AB tests with both units if i have the time.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: stereokillah on June 05, 2009, 06:04:46 PM
great il like your white button style ivory, give it some prestige
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 06, 2009, 11:23:18 AM
Quote
Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt, without tubes they go up higher but with all tubes in both boards read the same voltage. anyone?
Well it's not a problem at all but please tell me does the voltage drops in front of Slow start PCB or just after?
I had this kind of problem in mine even if I don't use your design (I use standard LM350 based heater PSU)... I increased the filtering caps ( x 2 ) to get enough capacity to handle the 5,2 A constant feed... I did a few other mods and the ripple is still there on the output but I minimized it... The problem was that I could ear the hum caused by the heaters...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 06, 2009, 11:26:31 AM
Are U sure that transformer is not saturating? That's why I asked about drop before regulator  :-\
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 06, 2009, 11:41:41 AM
Are U sure that transformer is not saturating? That's why I asked about drop before regulator  :-\
On mine I've got 9V DC after the caps, with a sawtooth of minimum 2 V peak to peak centered on this 9V DC... It doesn't look like a transformer saturation but more like a caps I use are not strong enough... Anyway, 5.2A is a real strong current and it's constant... Nothing appear to be wrong but LM350 seam to need more than 2V in/out to work correctly... Don't know for 338.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 06, 2009, 02:19:12 PM
Hey, that´s a nice one. I like the white touch very much. Haven´t I seen this frontpanel layout before?? !! ;)  ;D ;D
regards
Bernd

No.. i think you must have had a really good dream about that frontpanel.  ::)
I printed a PDF file from your design in frontpaneldesigner and used that as a base for the lasertran prints.
I used 2x a4 prints, there is a small line where the 2 sheets meet but not like really noticable, certainly not disturbing and almost gone with the lacquer.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 06, 2009, 04:06:54 PM
Hey [silent:arts]


have you got a spare psu for a poor man  just burnt a big hole in  board and carpet  >:(.


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 06, 2009, 04:33:40 PM
... have you got a spare psu for a poor man  just burnt a big hole in  board and carpet  >:(.
ouch  :'(
how did you manage that?

unfortunately I don't have anything left right now.
I will do some more, but this will take some weeks.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 06, 2009, 04:59:20 PM
oh well that's diy for you, shorted some thing while i was testing  :-[


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 06, 2009, 05:06:30 PM
oh well that's diy for you, shorted some thing while i was testing  :-[
glad you are still alive.
this PSU could kill you ...

which part burned?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 06, 2009, 05:54:54 PM
As far i can see  r1 r5  and all transisors are gone, r1 did the most damage and r 5 ..

skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: giltmastering on June 07, 2009, 01:26:02 AM
here it is! another living poorman!  ;D



Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt,

Looks like you still have C23 & C24 on the PSU board......  does this matter?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 07, 2009, 05:03:31 AM
here it is! another living poorman!  ;D



Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt,

Looks like you still have C23 & C24 on the PSU board......  does this matter?
Yep, they are still on but it doesn't matter because the heater part of the board is not doing anything, it's simpy not connected at all.

I did some other measuring this morning; when all tubes are in i have about 8.8v right after the rectifier (so input of the board) and after about an hour i still have 5,9v at the outputs of both boards. It's not reall hard to to get 6.3v then at the other output where no tubes are in. So it looks like the regulator can't handle the power consumption of the tubes in some kind of way and so the voltages drop.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 07, 2009, 05:25:07 AM
Can you please measure the voltage drop across R1?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 07, 2009, 06:31:50 AM
here it is! another living poorman!  ;D



Some minor issues, i can't get the heater voltages higher then about 5,9 volt,

Looks like you still have C23 & C24 on the PSU board......  does this matter?
Yep, they are still on but it doesn't matter because the heater part of the board is not doing anything, it's simpy not connected at all.

I did some other measuring this morning; when all tubes are in i have about 8.8v right after the rectifier (so input of the board) and after about an hour i still have 5,9v at the outputs of both boards. It's not reall hard to to get 6.3v then at the other output where no tubes are in. So it looks like the regulator can't handle the power consumption of the tubes in some kind of way and so the voltages drop.
If you've got a scope, do a test with it... You may understand better what hapens.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on June 08, 2009, 07:24:16 AM
Sorry guys, I try to keep up with the thread but work has been demanding.
Remember IRF820 for mono and IRF840 for stereo.

analag

Finally getting my STEREO unit together & found this post...

Do I need to change my Q4 from IRF820 to IRF840 ?

( I already have an IRF840 at Q5 )

Thanks
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 08, 2009, 07:29:26 AM
Do I need to change my Q4 from IRF820 to IRF840 ?
try first if it works. there are enough working stereo units build with this combo.
but if you have high voltage problems exchange the IRF820 to IRF840.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on June 08, 2009, 08:31:53 AM
Thanks man  ;D

I could use a little advise: I have
2x 24 position switches
2x 12 position switches

Were do you think the 24 position switches would work best?
Input or Threshold?

I was thinking Input - but thought I'd ask beforehand.

Also,
I plan on dB steps for the input but want to ask you guys that have built units - which do you feel is better for the the Threshold?
Log or Lin taper?

I'm sure there's a "sweet spot"
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on June 08, 2009, 08:36:20 AM
read what I wrote just two pages back, then the rest of the thread.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on June 08, 2009, 08:57:43 AM
read what I wrote just two pages back, then the rest of the thread.

I've been doing nothing but READING... but there's a sh*t load of info to sift thru.
I'm not a newbie here bro.  ;)

I'll look back a few pages.
thanks.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on June 08, 2009, 09:10:19 AM
Apparently a log (pot or rotary switch series) will work best with the "threshold/compress" switch as well. Someone in this thread tested it and with linear it apparently only "digs" at the audio (with modern levels) at about half or one quadrant of the pot/rotary. With log you get more even spread.

Great info... sorry I missed it.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 08, 2009, 09:16:45 AM
I have added a link to Kingstons rotary contribution to the first post :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: JoleFIN on June 08, 2009, 01:56:19 PM
Apparently I've missed something that I can't find with the search function, but a dull question regarding the basic things... What are the differences between PM670 and original Fairchild 670?

I'm about to start the PM project soon, gathering the parts here :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: MartyMart on June 08, 2009, 02:01:31 PM
Apparently I've missed something that I can't find with the search function, but a dull question regarding the basic things... What are the differences between PM670 and original Fairchild 670?

I'm about to start the PM project soon, gathering the parts here :)

It's 10 tubes different for a kick off !!

Supposed to sound great though :-)

MM.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Kingston on June 09, 2009, 07:17:24 AM
What are the differences between PM670 and original Fairchild 670?

You should really ask, what is similar between a PM670 and Fairchild 670. And the answer is: the general topology to achieve Vari-mu compression, and nothing else.

I have found it extremely odd that so many people here have labeled their poormans with the Fairchild logo. It's like you build a really nice custom chopper from the ground up and stick a Rolls Royce logo on the gas tank.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 09, 2009, 07:34:11 AM
Quote
You should really ask, what is similar between a PM670 and Fairchild 670. And the answer is: the general topology to achieve Vari-mu compression, and nothing else.
With pimp "Scamp" board is possible to have same time constant values and that's one step closer to Fairchild 670  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: JoleFIN on June 10, 2009, 12:32:28 AM
I have found it extremely odd that so many people here have labeled their poormans with the Fairchild logo. It's like you build a really nice custom chopper from the ground up and stick a Rolls Royce logo on the gas tank.

That's exactly the reason.. Probably like the others who already stamped the FC logo, I thought it differs mostly only by the side chain and use of up-to-date parts + cheaper tubes (and also less, I thought there are more tubes in parallel use in the original or something like that). Hearing this there won't be a Fairchild logo when she's ready one day (with the scamp too) :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 10, 2009, 05:15:47 AM
I was working with my poorman in the studio on a masteringjob and i noticed it has a low end roll off.
Not like the low end is gone or something but it sounds a bit like the roll of is maybe about 3db at 50hz or something like that. (didn't measure it yet, i can't get rmaa to work right now)
For the rest the unit sounds great and smooth but i just noticed that roll off.
Anyone else have that problem? maybe change some cap values?  ???
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 10, 2009, 05:21:01 AM
Anyone else have that problem? maybe change some cap values?  ???
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg414809#msg414809
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on June 10, 2009, 05:32:24 AM
Thank you for choosing the Volker search engine  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 10, 2009, 05:32:24 AM
Anyone else have that problem? maybe change some cap values?  ???
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=28274.msg414809#msg414809

No, that is not it.. it's exactly the same on both channels, otherwise i would have made the same soldering error on both channels exactly the same.  ;D
It's not like really much but you hear something is going on/missing in the low end, i will post an example later on.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on June 10, 2009, 05:33:39 AM
the same soldering error on both channels exactly the same.  ;D

These things DO happen sometimes .....

No but seriously, you have a scoop right? Send a square wave in the poorman and see where the low cut occurs... Should not be too hard to find out if you ask me...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 10, 2009, 07:03:01 AM
Quote
It's not like really much but you hear something is going on/missing in the low end, i will post an example later on.
If the roll off is subtle then measure the "beast" first ( yes square will tell you how good the situation is), but I suspect that bass roll off can be caused by big tubes  mismatch. Edcor has no much space to compensate DC current difference. As far I know tx is not gaped and total mismatch shouldn't be more than few ma's. Just my 0.2c
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 10, 2009, 07:22:29 AM
I was working with my poorman in the studio on a masteringjob and i noticed it has a low end roll off.
Not like the low end is gone or something but it sounds a bit like the roll of is maybe about 3db at 50hz or something like that. (didn't measure it yet, i can't get rmaa to work right now)
For the rest the unit sounds great and smooth but i just noticed that roll off.
Anyone else have that problem? maybe change some cap values?  ???
There's no cap in the signal path so the problem cannot be this.
During my tests I didn't notice any bass roll-off but the load on the PM670 output was more than 10K so :
Where is placed the PM670 in your mastering chain ?
What is its load on the output ?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: dagoose on June 10, 2009, 07:24:02 AM
My mistake... i thought i heard a roll off but it was more like a 'low freq roll up' on another compressor i have.  ???
So... actually it is flat, when i bypass (hard relay) i still have the same response as when enganged so nothing is wrong. (ok.. except for the vu meter null adjust which is still a bit to hard to get zero but that is no problem.  ;D )
But anyway... thanks!  8)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 10, 2009, 08:19:07 AM
Quote
But anyway... thanks!
Great news  :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on June 10, 2009, 12:45:26 PM
Very strange: My VU-Meter (Sifam AL22) is pegging hard to the right even when NOT CONNECTED  ???
After I couldn´t get it trimmed to zero (taking out R6 and replacing it with various trimmers) I took out the rectifier diodes and resistors. I then could get the needle to zero but tracking was very poor so I wanted to try the VU route once more.
I have a few more AL22 but they all behave the same: when I come near the meter connector with the leads the needle starts pegging to the right (I guess it is some interaction with the 5687), I just don´t understand it...
OR is it just better to get the recommended VU-Meter (Sifam AL20), but why should this VU-Meter react different then?
Thanks a lot, Emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 11, 2009, 08:07:13 AM
Very strange: My VU-Meter (Sifam AL22) is pegging hard to the right even when NOT CONNECTED  ???
After I couldn´t get it trimmed to zero (taking out R6 and replacing it with various trimmers) I took out the rectifier diodes and resistors. I then could get the needle to zero but tracking was very poor so I wanted to try the VU route once more.
I have a few more AL22 but they all behave the same: when I come near the meter connector with the leads the needle starts pegging to the right (I guess it is some interaction with the 5687), I just don´t understand it...
OR is it just better to get the recommended VU-Meter (Sifam AL20), but why should this VU-Meter react different then?
Thanks a lot, Emre
You've got to understand how's the VUmeter is tracking gain reduction (maybe you already understood that but some of us can be interrested) :
A vu meter is a AC voltmeter (with the rectifier build in). Through R6, the current pumped by the 6BC8 creates a voltage you measure. As the tubes are pumping less current when compressing the voltage drops and the needle goes left. Some little maths : If we call Ib the DC current pumped by the tubes and Ia the current pumped by the tubes to create audio signals voltage on R6 can be calculated with this : Ur6 = [Ib + (Ia - Ia)] x R6.

You can use nearly any Vu or voltmeter here to track compression. On mine, I left R6 on the board and connected on parallel a 500 ohm pot (with 2 points wired together to react as a single resistor). One point of the pot is connected directly to the vumeter, the other point feed the Vu through a 3K6 or 3k9 ohm resistor. It works ! And my Vumeter is an old PEKLY (french brand unfortunately disapeared a long time ago)...

(http://pagesperso-orange.fr/NBNS-Studio/PM670/vumeterconnection.bmp)

Try this if you didn't and tell us what's happening  ;).

PS: the needle reacts weirdly only when the 6BC8 are overdriving audio (I mean with no compression).
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on June 11, 2009, 09:00:54 AM
Thanks for your reply lolo.
I will try your method as soon as I´m home but what really puzzles me is the fact that my vu-meter pegs hard right even though it is NOT connected. As soon as I come near the 5687 tubes with the leads of my meter the needle starts to move like there is some sort of induction going on (excuse my probably nonsense talking here). How is that possible?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 11, 2009, 09:09:40 AM
I'm not an expert in this but maybe there's some electrostatic field generated by the tubes... I'm surprised by the fact it can interract with the meter  ::)... Think about some metal shield there if the problem persists. But before, test without any shield  ;). This will certainly learn us something  ;D !
Your problem is really weird  :o.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 11, 2009, 10:30:48 AM
Well maybe a little about theory may help.. ;) I wanted to post earlier when Lolo mentioned hum but I was short in time.
Electromagnetic fields decay with the square of distance, so heater wiring runs should be as far away as possible from signal circuitry as possible, and only come up to the valve at the last possible moment and in the most direct manner possible.
Valve sockets should be oriented so that the pins receiving heater wiring are as close to the chassis wall as possible, and heater wire should never loop round a valve (except for rectifier valves, where hum is not an issue).
Electrostatic fields and heater wiring....
The electrostatic field is due to the voltage on the wiring.
Heater wiring should be pushed firmly into the corners of the (conductive) chassis, since the electrostatic mirror at the corner tends to null some of the electrostatic field. Heater wiring must not run exposed from one valve to the next, but should return to the corner of the chassis to re-emerge at the next valve.
Hope this helps  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on June 17, 2009, 05:45:36 AM
Hi,
I'm back in front line with this monster !!

here is something I have found that it's not clear.
I have had a look at the data sheets for the MPS42 and MPS92 and the maximum VCBO and VCEO are 300 while on the base of Q1 there are effectively 370VDC.
would this 70VDC differece cause the transistor to blow?

can anyone,very kindly, take some static measurements around Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 e Q5, please?

Many thanks for the help

Regards
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 17, 2009, 06:12:46 AM
Hi,
I'm back in front line with this monster !!

here is something I have found that it's not clear.
I have had a look at the data sheets for the MPS42 and MPS92 and the maximum VCBO and VCEO are 300 while on the base of Q1 there are effectively 370VDC.
would this 70VDC differece cause the transistor to blow?

can anyone,very kindly, take some static measurements around Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4 e Q5, please?

Many thanks for the help

Regards
not exactly.. on the base of Q1 is around 300v and on the collector around 250V. So there is 50V...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on June 17, 2009, 09:10:04 AM
Excuse me Moby,
I'm talkin about MPS92....... =Q1
is impossible to have 300V there !!!!
SO form trafo i have 270Volt AC in .
Then after D1-2-3-4 i will find near 370 and then at base of Q1 i will have near 370.

Whats wrong ???

Hey Moby would you be so kind to take some REAL static measurements so maybe i can figure out whats going on here ?  ???
Any other good samaritan !!! ::) ::)

Thanks for help

Regards
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: veermaster on June 17, 2009, 10:37:31 AM
About my meter problem:
I now use a 15V meter shunted with a 5K trimmer (took out the 22K shunt).
Works fine now. Thanks for all your help!
emre
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 17, 2009, 01:53:39 PM
well, still making slow progress on my PM660, turns out the LM337 is getting so hot it's shutting down, could there be something wrong or do I need a larger heat sink?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 17, 2009, 09:09:38 PM
Quote
Excuse me Moby,
I'm talkin about MPS92....... =Q1
is impossible to have 300V there !!!!
SO form trafo i have 270Volt AC in .
Then after D1-2-3-4 i will find near 370 and then at base of Q1 i will have near 370.

Whats wrong Huh
Noting wrong, voltage depends on mains transformer U use. Ok, you have 370V unregulated, than the base of Q1 will have 368V, emitter something like 369V and you forget that collector is not grounded but biased at 254V. So "wrong" is that Q1 never "see" ground , just difference between base and collector. No need for measuring it's clear by analyzing the schematics  ;)
Edit:
If you don't measure something close to 254V on collector of Q1 than you have to check D7(100V) it's probably shorted. Same with Q2,Q3, expect on the junction something close to 230V
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 17, 2009, 09:12:10 PM
well, still making slow progress on my PM660, turns out the LM337 is getting so hot it's shutting down, could there be something wrong or do I need a larger heat sink?
Somethin' is wrong for sure, check did you reversed something.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 17, 2009, 09:51:04 PM
everything seems right, nothing reversed, at least everything follows the silkscreen on the PCB, it's Vexing...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on June 18, 2009, 05:30:59 AM
Hi, REPORTAGE FROM THE FRONT LINE !!!
Great progress with the BEast !!! ;D
Finally Getting ready with the PSU!
There were a couple of resistors with wrong values!!! ....AZZ.....
So with board attached now i have :
245V ,  137V,     5,8V Heater
Finally It seems OK !

NOW

I tried to set the trimmers but the value goes from -0,2 to -0,78 !!!!
I cannot set them to -4,5 and -2,4

What should i have check ???
regards
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 18, 2009, 07:57:21 AM
Hi, REPORTAGE FROM THE FRONT LINE !!!
Great progress with the BEast !!! ;D
Finally Getting ready with the PSU!
There were a couple of resistors with wrong values!!! ....AZZ.....
So with board attached now i have :
245V ,  137V,     5,8V Heater
Finally It seems OK !

NOW

I tried to set the trimmers but the value goes from -0,2 to -0,78 !!!!
I cannot set them to -4,5 and -2,4

What should i have check ???
regards
Great news  :) Check the -17V regulator, if you are talking about voltages on RV6
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 18, 2009, 07:58:48 AM
everything seems right, nothing reversed, at least everything follows the silkscreen on the PCB, it's Vexing...
Yes, it's vexing but that's the part of DIY  ;)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on June 18, 2009, 10:56:51 AM
OK, GOOD NEWs
Finally sorted OUT!!!

There were others wrong resistors on boards........SUPER AZZ..... stupid errors i know.....  :'(
So if you have strange voltages on you PM , Check 10 times your resistors
AND
never do "DIY" thinking about your girlfriend !   ::) ::) ::) ;D
Now the PM670 FINALLLY is ALIVE!!!
Soon I will post some photos.

Thanks to  Silent.art, analag, moby, and mata_haze for help and support !!! NEVER GIVEUP!   NO WAY!

The meters react very slowly....... is this the way they are supposed to work ????

Regards
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 18, 2009, 12:04:47 PM
need some help on the meter light connection and bypass boards ,


can they both run of the 17 v rail

Do i connect the light and relay boards in parallel with the 17 v rail


skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 18, 2009, 12:05:28 PM
another one alive - cool  8) 8) 8)
great you sorted it out.
I always measure any resistor before soldering in, just to go sure ...  :D

The meters react very slowly....... in this the way they are supposed to work ????
this depends very much on the ballistic of the meter you used.

we want pics ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 18, 2009, 12:07:03 PM
need some help on the meter light connection and bypass boards ,
can they both run of the 17 v rail
Do i connect the light and relay boards in parallel with the 17 v rail

if your meter light doesn't need too much current no problem.
and yes, parallel.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 18, 2009, 01:16:02 PM
cheers Mr Art



skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 18, 2009, 03:18:30 PM
Quote
Thanks to  Silent.art, analag, moby, and mata_haze for help and support !!! NEVER GIVEUP!   NO WAY!
U welcome, cheers!  :)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: mata_haze on June 18, 2009, 05:09:55 PM
Quote
Thanks to  Silent.art, analag, moby, and mata_haze for help and support !!! NEVER GIVEUP!   NO WAY!
U welcome, cheers!  :)

ROCK AND ROLL!
Mattia.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: AW_music on June 20, 2009, 09:47:11 AM
Here we are, with the BEAST !! ;D ;D ;D
Long battle.....
but you know..
...in the end...
only the STRONG survive !!!!!! >:( >:(

Thanks to ANALAG and SILENT ART and this great forum for the Help !
I'm wondering where i can put LOLO's pcb ???

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6914/pm6701.jpg)

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/658/pm670inside.jpg)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on June 20, 2009, 06:53:02 PM

I'm wondering where i can put LOLO's pcb ???

Yes with this box it's pretty tight  ;D

But I see two options :
- Verticaly ( TO 220 fixed on the bottom of the box ) behind the transformers and the front plate
- Upside down, on the top of the box, TO220 fixed on the right side , upon the PSU board.
TO220 fixed INSULATED any way you choose
I hope it helps  ;)

It make me think I should finish my front plate  ;D...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 21, 2009, 04:00:01 AM
brilliant color mix  ;D ;D ;D
nice work  :)
added to the porn list  :o
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 22, 2009, 05:38:12 PM
well,
  turns out the -17v supply is working properly, at least when it's not connected to the PM660 PCB, when it's connected the LM337 gets so hot it shuts down.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Moby on June 22, 2009, 06:05:57 PM
well,
  turns out the -17v supply is working properly, at least when it's not connected to the PM660 PCB, when it's connected the LM337 gets so hot it shuts down.
Than check the components on PM660. Must be that something is shorting. Did you tried to adjust the RV6? Is the resistance of the RV6 not less than 2k5?
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 22, 2009, 07:37:12 PM
turns out I am having a grounding issue with the 660 board,
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 23, 2009, 01:15:52 AM
I have ordered some nylon screws and spacers to that the compressor board will be isolated from the case ground, that seems to have solved the problem.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 23, 2009, 01:47:52 PM
OK here is my ugly duckling



(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/skal34/S6000112.jpg)


(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f392/skal34/S6000113.jpg)



skal1
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 23, 2009, 02:07:44 PM
OK here is my ugly duckling
mhm - where is the ugly ??? can't see it ...
now they are coming, cool 8) 8) 8)
hey, I like unique designs  ;D

great work, enjoy it :D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 23, 2009, 02:24:23 PM
it looks great!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: skal1 on June 23, 2009, 03:29:04 PM
 ;D next time it will be aesthetically pleasing .. thanks you and the log for this machine


skal1 
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on June 23, 2009, 05:27:00 PM
it looks great!
Sir, where are your pics ;)

;D next time it will be aesthetically pleasing .. thanks you and the log for this machine
one tip: cables could have been done better - next time ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on June 23, 2009, 06:14:27 PM
pix are on the way, I have a bit of work still to do, I am waiting for some nylon screws and washers to come so I can get it all bolted down.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 02, 2009, 02:11:56 AM
Hey guys.

My PM670 is 99% Done... really.
 - but I'm not sure what size FUSE I should install before firing it up.

I'll be posting Pics VERY Soon.  ;D
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: [silent:arts] on July 02, 2009, 03:28:28 AM
Hi Kevin,

this is an answer Harpo posted in the GSSL thread, but it belongs to here too:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=47.msg420494#msg420494
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 02, 2009, 04:36:16 AM
OK... got it fired up & no smoke.  :)

Question #1
With ALL tubes installed, using the EDCORE TX, & a .47 ohm 50w resistor for the Heater:
I'm only getting about 3.7 volts on the heater lugs.
It measured about 11.9vDC before - (no tubes)

This seems very low, NO?

::::::::::EDIT:::::::::::
OK, My heater Voltages came up... When I build TUBE gear, I always use a Light bulb in series with the power at 1st power-up for safety... when I disconnected the bulb, the voltages went up, so that's cool.

ALL other voltages look good.

Question #2
The Trimmer Voltages:
RV6  = -2.4v & RV3 = -4.5v ... but where is the best place to measure these?

RV6 is easier it seems... I measured it at R17 (one side of the 221k resistor) is this correct?

But RV3 is harder with the PCB's installed?
Let me get this straight... is the voltage supposed to be measured @ the wiper of RV3 or is it the voltage coming out of Q1 - to the junction of the 330r resistors ??? (the Cathode resistors for the 6BC8's)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: RedNoise on July 02, 2009, 04:37:39 AM
Nice shots!I love the "ugly" one!
Hey AW_music , what sifam did you use on your PM?I think I got a pair of them too , but didn't know if I have mods to do to use them.
Thanks.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 02, 2009, 05:31:50 AM
WOW!!!!!
 those tubes, Rectifier & Heater Resistor get HOT!!!!!!!  :o

again, WOW.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: radiance on July 02, 2009, 06:48:48 AM
WOW!!!!!
 those tubes, Rectifier & Heater Resistor get HOT!!!!!!!  :o

again, WOW.

I think in my current room without AC I can only use this compressor during winter time  :(
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on July 02, 2009, 09:36:28 AM
OK... got it fired up & no smoke.  :)

That's always a good sign.  Congrats!

Quote
Question #2
The Trimmer Voltages:
RV6  = -2.4v & RV3 = -4.5v ... but where is the best place to measure these?

Measure between pin 2 and ground.

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 02, 2009, 01:59:38 PM
Quote
Quote
Question #2
The Trimmer Voltages:
RV6  = -2.4v & RV3 = -4.5v ... but where is the best place to measure these?

Measure between pin 2 and ground.

Cheers,
--
Don


Hi Don,
That's the obvious answer but with the PCB mounted you can't get to the wiper = Pin 2.
Quote
The Trimmer Voltages:
RV6  = -2.4v & RV3 = -4.5v ... but where is the best place to measure these?

RV6 is easier it seems... I measured it at R17 (one side of the 221k resistor) is this correct?

But RV3 is harder with the PCB's installed?
Let me get this straight... is the voltage supposed to be measured @ the wiper of RV3 or is it the voltage coming out of Q1 - to the junction of the 330r resistors Huh (the Cathode resistors for the 6BC8's)
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 02, 2009, 02:05:12 PM
WOW!!!!!
 those tubes, Rectifier & Heater Resistor get HOT!!!!!!!  :o

again, WOW.

I think in my current room without AC I can only use this compressor during winter time  :(

I was afraid of that... my control room gets too hot already. I think I should drill some more holes in my case & possibly add
a heat sink to the Regulator.
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on July 02, 2009, 02:45:21 PM
That's the obvious answer but with the PCB mounted you can't get to the wiper = Pin 2.

Which is why I ran small wires from the wipers out to test points.  Even though it's not a frequent adjustment, I figured it would be easier to add test points during the build process to make setting those a snap.

Cheers,
--
Don
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: Knarleybass on July 02, 2009, 02:59:25 PM
WOW!!!!!
 those tubes, Rectifier & Heater Resistor get HOT!!!!!!!  :o

again, WOW.

I think in my current room without AC I can only use this compressor during winter time  :(

Yes,
  mine get hot as well...
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: khstudio on July 02, 2009, 03:11:24 PM
That's the obvious answer but with the PCB mounted you can't get to the wiper = Pin 2.

Which is why I ran small wires from the wipers out to test points.  Even though it's not a frequent adjustment, I figured it would be easier to add test points during the build process to make setting those a snap.

Cheers,
--
Don

Good idea... I was wondering when I saw your pics what they were for.

Your unit is very cool BTW.

Thanks,
Kevin
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: lolo-m on July 02, 2009, 04:08:54 PM
That's the obvious answer but with the PCB mounted you can't get to the wiper = Pin 2.

Which is why I ran small wires from the wipers out to test points.  Even though it's not a frequent adjustment, I figured it would be easier to add test points during the build process to make setting those a snap.

Cheers,
--
Don

Good idea... I was wondering when I saw your pics what they were for.

Your unit is very cool BTW.

Thanks,
Kevin

Another solution is to get the voltage on the proper leg of R17 and to get the other on the Base leg of Q1. That's what I do. But be carefull, don't shake, don't move or you'll maybe make some sparks  :'( !!!
Title: Re: the Poor Man 660 support thread
Post by: idylldon on July 02, 2009, 04:23:53 PM