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Project Specific Discussions => Mixers/Monitoring Systems => Topic started by: Igor on December 15, 2008, 07:48:41 PM

Title: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 15, 2008, 07:48:41 PM
Hi guys, as promissed to Christmass...

PASSIVE CONTROLL ROOM KITS!

(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/crm_sm.jpg)

DESCRIPTION:

PASSIVE, BALANCED SOUNDPATH
AUDIO PASSING THRU RELAYS AND METAL FILM RESISTORS ONLY
4 INPUTS (SELECTOR 1 OF 4)
2 SPEAKERS AND SUB OUT SELECTOR
64 STEPS OF 1 DB LEVEL CONTROLL
MONO, DIM, TALKBACK FUNCTIONS
USER-DEFINEABLE LEVEL OFFSETS ON EVERY INPUT AND OUTPUT
USER-DEFINEABLE LEVEL OFFSETS FOR MONO, DIM AND TALKBACK CONTROLLS

SEPARATE CONTROLL AND AUDIO UNITS
(POSSIBLE TO PUT AUDIO BOX IN GEAR RACK AND CONTROLL UNIT ON TABLE,
BEST ERGONOMICALLY AND SOUND-WISE )
NO AUDIO GOING THRU 15-PIN VGA CABLE, ALL AUDIO IS KEPT INSIDE RACK BOX

Here's some preliminary pictures:

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010542.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010539.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010537.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010534.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010530.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010527.jpg
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/P1010525.jpg


SCHEMATICS
(big sized pictures, right-click and save-as):


http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/schem_audio.gif
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/pcb_audio.gif
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/contr_SCH.gif
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/contr_top.gif
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/contr_btm.gif

Talkback combiner:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=31609.0

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/tb_comb_sch.gif
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/tb_comb_pcb.gif


Kit contains everything except power supply, case and VGA cable.

Ordering:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=29771.0
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Whoops on December 15, 2008, 09:55:31 PM
Congratulations it looks great!!!!!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bobschwenkler on December 15, 2008, 11:10:35 PM
That looks great! If I didn't already have money into an expensive Elma switch for a controller I might jump on one of these. Maybe in the future I still will.

Does the chassis for the cotrol module come with the kit?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 16, 2008, 05:39:16 AM
Quote
If I didn't already have money into an expensive Elma switch for a controller


Just wondering, which Elma switch, how many steps of volume controll and how many resistors
audio passing when it at the middle position? Does this switch has hermetically sealed contacts?
IMHO, Elma is not as expensive as this controller sound and ergonomically-wise....

All questions about racking and front pannels please ask Purusha.
I think it is possible to offer great sollution with plexi front pannel for controller.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on December 16, 2008, 06:00:46 AM

Hi Igor,

I'll be one of the first ten please :)

Will you be starting a new thread in the black market, or adding this to your sticky?

Payment waiting...

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 16, 2008, 06:05:03 AM
Hi Rob, it is allready added to  my sticky.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on December 16, 2008, 06:08:35 AM
 :-[  Oops.  Checked the date of the last post but you updated the first post of course :-[ :-[
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on December 16, 2008, 06:34:36 AM

Hi Igor,

Will it be possible to release exact dimensions of the control unit (positions of the components etc) for those of us wishing to do our own cases and panels?

Thanks,

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 16, 2008, 06:44:21 AM
I will post updated .cdr files for controller's plexi and 1RU back within a few days,
for those who want to make their own cases.
But, please check for Purusha cases option :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Ptownkid on December 16, 2008, 08:02:04 AM
wow, just wow.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bobschwenkler on December 16, 2008, 01:17:08 PM
Quote
If I didn't already have money into an expensive Elma switch for a controller


Just wondering, which Elma switch, how many steps of volume controll and how many resistors
audio passing when it at the middle position? Does this switch has hermetically sealed contacts?
IMHO, Elma is not as expensive as this controller sound and ergonomically-wise....

The Elma certainly is not as nice as your option... It's a 24 pos. switch which I'll probably wire up as a potentiometer. But I've already bought it. We'll see. I definitely am interested in your unit.

Again, does the chassis for the controller module come with the kit?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 16, 2008, 04:11:52 PM
Hi Bob, all questions about racking please ask Purusha.
I definately going to order from him some boxes for this project.

Just as tip, if you using Elma in pot connection,
IMHO best total value is 5k.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ioaudio on December 16, 2008, 05:14:13 PM
HI IGOR
I MISS YOUR PIPE ON THE PIC
-MAX
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 19, 2008, 01:04:43 PM
Hi ioaudio, I will post more pics later with Purusha case,
they will include pipe as well.
BTW, 2 Christmass offer kits still waiting!!!!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 19, 2008, 04:06:10 PM
Great work Igor  :) Is it possible to extend speakers selector to 4 pairs? If yes I'm in  ;D One more question... How did you implemented talkback function? Is the CR level dimmed when TB is pressed?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 19, 2008, 04:52:04 PM
Quote
Is it possible to extend speakers selector to 4 pairs?


You can interchange input and output selectors with some minor mods....
This way SUB becomes useless, i.e. 2 inputs and 4 outputs.

Or, just buy my mastering console monitor section :)
It has 127.5 db range in 0.5 db steps and more functions....

Quote
One more question... How did you implemented talkback function?
Is the CR level dimmed when TB is pressed?

There's talkback combiner, which mixing small electret mic signal
into playback L-R feed from external source  (or same source as CR).
When TB pressed, CR level goes down by user-defineable value (0...-20dB)
and playback level dim'ed as well by 8 dB.

Talkback combiner has balanced 20k inputs and ground-compensated outs.

If TB pressed more than 4...5 sec, it latches; press again to off.

I will post schems and other info about TB combiner in few days.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 19, 2008, 06:04:58 PM
Thanks for info Igor :)
Quote
Or, just buy my mastering console monitor section Smiley
It has 127.5 db range in 0.5 db steps and more functions....
I'm not familiar with that, sorry, can you give some more info about? Kit, finished product, PCB  ???
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 19, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
Sorry, for mastering console, no kits  ;D 8)

For finnished product, PM.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 07, 2009, 04:59:27 PM
Kit arrived, thanks Igor  :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 08, 2009, 08:04:21 AM

What's your recommendation for power supply for this project Igor?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 08, 2009, 08:29:51 AM
@ Moby: Enjoy :)
@Rob: 12V 2A pulse (PWM or "digital") power supply.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 09, 2009, 05:03:46 AM
@ Moby: Enjoy :)
@Rob: 12V 2A pulse (PWM or "digital") power supply.
Can you please give some more info about PSU. Some schematics maybe  :) Also, top silk of the PCB's will be welcome in vectors 1:1 so we can design box and frontpannels  ;) I know that Porusha has made fronts but I will like to make custom one and to add few more things (4 speakers selector)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 09, 2009, 06:35:10 AM
Now I figured out  :-[ You are talking about computer PSU ! Something like this http://uzzors2k.googlepages.com/psu1.jpg/psu1-full.jpg (http://uzzors2k.googlepages.com/psu1.jpg/psu1-full.jpg)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 09, 2009, 05:17:56 PM
Hi Moby! Just check these links:
http://il.farnell.com/tracopower/tof-30-12s/psu-open-30w-12v-2-5a/dp/1242663
http://il.farnell.com/tdk-lambda/zws30-12/psu-30w-12v/dp/1184624
http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/pbm25us12/psu-open-frame-25w-12v/dp/1109866
http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/cu20-12/psu-open-pcb-20w-12v/dp/1005663
http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/ecm40us12/psu-open-frame-40w-12v/dp/1176957

http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/cu20-60-connector-kit/connector-kit-psu/dp/1005668?crosssellid=1005668&crosssell=true
http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/acs40-60-loom/loom-acs40-60-series/dp/1110689

Before ordering from Farnell, check your local electronics store.
Average cost of power supply like this should be $25-40.
Don't save bying very cheap chinese stuff.
Take into account, it connected to mains! :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 09, 2009, 05:32:06 PM
For measures etc, here's the drawings:
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/plexi_contr_FORUM.gif
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/REAR_CRM_1U_FORUM.gif

I suggest to buy cases from Purusha, we worked out excellent looking solution for great price.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 09, 2009, 07:27:26 PM
Thanks Igor. Ok about PSU but pics with front panels are not in scale. Also, I'm not sure about screw holes on the PCB, thats why I asked silk in the vector format . Any wector can work, dwg, Ai, whatewer....I also sent you the mail with some more questions . Did you received?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 10, 2009, 02:56:59 PM

Hey Igor,

I'm stuffing the boards for this project and need to check something with you.  Some of the supplied resistor values don't quite match the values printed on the boards.

For example I have 24k3 resistors and 24k6 spaces on the audio board.  I presume these resisitors are meant to go in that position?  Same thing with 2k62 resistors and 2k52 positions on the board.

Please can you confirm that the 'closest match' should go in each position?

What would be even better is if you have a BOM available which matches resistor value in the kit to resistor number printed on the boards.

Cheers dude :)

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 10, 2009, 11:19:25 PM
Hi Rob, I will post boms in few days. Resistor values are OK in 2% tolerance.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on January 12, 2009, 03:44:13 PM
Hi Igor,

is Output 7-8 of the Speaker Out Sub-D a Record Feed, i.e. is that output just 1:1 mirroring whatever input is selected at the moment, without any level control? 

thanks
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 12, 2009, 08:39:34 PM
Quote
is Output 7-8 of the Speaker Out Sub-D a Record Feed, i.e. is that output just 1:1 mirroring whatever input is selected at the moment, without any level control?


Yes, possible use is record or meter feed.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 13, 2009, 06:05:01 PM
Hi Igor,

I believe that product code 85-2270 on this page

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Power-Supplies/Open-DIN/Chassis-type-switch-mode-power-supplies/68073

will do the trick for a PSU won't it?

Cheers  :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 13, 2009, 08:46:56 PM
Hi Rob, this PS should work fine.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 15, 2009, 09:03:37 AM
Igor , what kind o mic U used for talkback? Dynamic or small condenser one?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 15, 2009, 10:32:58 AM
Every condencer mic which will work with Soundblaster etc will work fine.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 15, 2009, 11:18:48 AM
Thanks. What you think about something like this? http://il.farnell.com/projects-unlimited/aom-6738l-r/microphone-omni-leads-9-7mm/dp/1193005
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on January 16, 2009, 12:12:49 PM
Igor wouldyou mind having a quick look at Tats case thread - I was asking if one of your recommended psus would fit in his case?

thanks!
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 16, 2009, 06:06:52 PM
Microphone seems will work. Will take a look on cases thread now.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 26, 2009, 08:13:27 PM
Igor, I started to stuff the boards and I miss few parts but it seems that I can find them locally. Nothing special , few resistors and diodes  ;) But I miss RN1 & RN2 too. I suppose they are resistors networks 4k7. I think that I can find that too locally but I'm not sure what I'm looking for exactly. Also, can you describe a story with photo resistor? I miss that too, but I see on the BOM's something about it's optional. I would like to have it so please let me know what value I'm looking for and do I have to miss some other resistor in that case?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 27, 2009, 03:26:33 AM
Quote
But I miss RN1 & RN2 too. I suppose they are resistors networks 4k7.

Exactly. Just install 4k7 resistors here.

Quote
Also, can you describe a story with photo resistor? I miss that too, but I see on the BOM's something about it's optional. I would like to have it so please let me know what value I'm looking for and do I have to miss some other resistor in that case?

Photoresistor used as brightness controll for 7-seg display.

No brightness controll: use 3k3 (brighter).....8k2(dim) resistor at the place of R20, ommit photoresistor and R21.
For me, optimal value is 5k6.

If you want to use brightness controll option, install R20,21 and use photoresistor-
allmost everything will work here... Roff >100k, Ron 0.3...2k.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 27, 2009, 06:59:12 AM
Quote
Exactly. Just install 4k7 resistors here.
Actually you designed PCB for SIL resistor network? Am I right? I hope something like this will work (and look better  ;)) (http://hobby_elec.piclist.com/picture/resist1.jpg)
Quote
Photoresistor used as brightness controll for 7-seg display.

No brightness controll: use 3k3 (brighter).....8k2(dim) resistor at the place of R20, ommit photoresistor and R21.
For me, optimal value is 5k6.

If you want to use brightness controll option, install R20,21 and use photoresistor-
allmost everything will work here... Roff >100k, Ron 0.3...2k.
Clear  :)
Also, can you please describe function of the SW_DIP-3 on the audio board?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Mike D on January 31, 2009, 10:18:01 AM
Hy Igor

The value for RZ1...4 on the pcb says 20k and something like *4k3 for RL1...4.
However, according to the schematic aswell as the overlay you posted, RZ1...4 should be 7k5 and RL1...4 20k.

Can you tell me what the correct values are?

Thanks, Mike
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on January 31, 2009, 02:47:45 PM
Hi Guys,

I'm making my own front panel for this,

I was wondering when cutting out the 10mm holes for the switches to pop though how much clearance i should give? .2mm enough?

all the best

Pete

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 31, 2009, 03:22:06 PM
Quote
The value for RZ1...4 on the pcb says 20k and something like *4k3 for RL1...4.
However, according to the schematic aswell as the overlay you posted, RZ1...4 should be 7k5 and RL1...4 20k.

Can you tell me what the correct values are?

Depends on your speaker's impedance.
For most cases, 7k5 is fine. 4k3 used for 20k input impedance speakers (amplifiers, to be correct).
Most speakers have 10k input impedance, use 7k5. This does not affects sound, worst case it
will add error to 1db steps (say, instead of -25 db there will be -24.5 or -25.5...not critical
untill it is not very high precision mastering room).
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on February 01, 2009, 06:29:10 AM
Thanks Igor, I presume you are answering about RL1 on the PCB. But there is a question about two values, actually, difference between schematics, silk picture and real PCB. Can you please elaborate which of these to follow ?
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/igorCustom.jpg)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 01, 2009, 08:17:59 AM
OOPS... Now I see. My mistake. I just took older files for schematic and BOM..
RL 4k3 shown on PCB is right value, except your speaker's (amp) input impedance lower than 10k.
99% of active speaker's amps have 10 or 20 k input impedance.
Attenuator calculated for 3k.
4k3 in parallel with 10k gives 3k.
DIP3 switch SW2 used to equalize speaker's impedance.
RZ values shown on PCB are correct values as well.
If SPK2 for example has 20k imp., ZL and ZR relays switched ON by setting switch SW2.
Just take a look on schematic.
In 99% cases, EXCEPT you need very precision level steps, exactly 1db,
it is not necessary to mess with it, even possible not to install ZL and ZR relays.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on February 01, 2009, 08:26:17 AM
Cool, thanks, everything clear now  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Mike D on February 01, 2009, 09:57:50 AM
Thank you both! Igor for the explanation and Moby for asking the question much better than I did  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 01, 2009, 11:58:53 AM
Huh..
:)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mrclunk on February 06, 2009, 06:05:32 AM
Hi Igor,
nice work!
would i be correct in thinking that it would be fairly straightforward to mod this to be a 5.1 surround controller?
Theres enough ins and outs.

best
paul
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 06, 2009, 12:21:43 PM
Hi Paul, this controller is made for stereo, but you can stack 3 audio boards.
If you don't need separate controll for front/rear speakers, it is OK.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: synthi on February 06, 2009, 12:47:39 PM
Hey igor,

I remember you mentioned about moding it for 3-4 outputs. I don´t need 4 inputs, just two is enought, but at least 3 audio outputs is a must.
Please can you post how to do that?

Thanks!

Synthi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 06, 2009, 06:03:50 PM
All we need to do is reverse inputs and outputs, cut connections to ground on outputs,
remove 75R resistors on outputs.
Refer to schematic. Output relays are connected to ground when output is muted.
Remove R 3,4,5,6,7,8.
Cut bottom layer traces as shown on pictures (white lines).
Reverse input and output with shielded cable, no need to use Monster diameter 12mm,
use something like Mogami line level cable.
Write IN 1,2 instead of MON1,2 on controller.
Write OUT1,2,3,4, instead of IN1,2,3,4 on controller.

SUB can be used as monitor output now (out to meter/phones without level,
paralleled to CRM source of input selector).
Previous METER output comes after level now.

Termination switch (DIP-3), relays ZL and ZR are useless as well, remove it and install
proper terminations on speaker outputs itselves if needed.
Logic is next: attenuator's load should be 3k, and it is allready terminated with 4k3 (RL1....4).

Hope everything is clear.

(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/inp_mod.jpg)


(http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/out_mod.jpg)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on February 09, 2009, 06:54:15 AM
Hi Igor,

My Hafler Amp has 47K input impedance per phase, is that going to be a problem for the values of RL and RZ?

cheers!

Pete
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 09, 2009, 04:50:38 PM
Nope. Install 4x approx. 36k resistors in parallel to amp's input, between - and gnd, + and gnd.
All this  termination stuff dos not affects the sound, only precision of level steps.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on February 18, 2009, 03:28:02 PM


Hi Igor,

All fired up working first time! works lovely jubly!

One question, Can i use Unballanced inputs? would that casue any problems grounding out the negative to ground on one of the inputs?

Best
Pete


Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 18, 2009, 06:15:47 PM
Hi Igor,

All fired up working first time! works lovely jubly!

One question, Can i use Unballanced inputs? would that casue any problems grounding out the negative to ground on one of the inputs?

Best
Pete

Hi Pete,

Just wondering -  what have you done for cases on this project? 

Obviously the 1RU case for the audio stuff is straightforward, but have you gone for a desktop case for the controller side?

If so, do you mind sharing which case you've gone for?  I'm struggling to find a sloping top case that's appropriate for this...

Cheers,

Rob

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on February 18, 2009, 06:37:59 PM
Hi Rob,

I have made my own with Front Panel Express, Im happy to share this with you if you like.

It should turn up tomorrow, ill post pics once its here, Lets hope it all fits!!

I have opted for a 4u case, as it will house my M&S Matrix / and Width contols plus a 2 channel MIxer for paralell work.

Best

Pete

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 19, 2009, 04:47:44 AM

So you're incorporating everything into one single case?  I'm considering this option too.

Looking forward to the pics!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 19, 2009, 11:20:49 AM
Hi Pete, I don't think there can be prob with unbalanced outputs.
I using same controll room system more than 2 years at my home setup.

Pictures please!!!!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 20, 2009, 12:30:11 PM

Did your case arrive Pete?

How does it look?!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on February 20, 2009, 02:02:40 PM

Hi Guys!

well its dark here now so the lighting is not great but here it is..

(http://www.grandmasteraudio.com/aluri.jpg)
(http://www.grandmasteraudio.com/pmcd.jpg)
(http://www.grandmasteraudio.com/pmc.jpg)
(http://www.grandmasteraudio.com/pmcl.jpg)
(http://www.grandmasteraudio.com/alu.jpg)
(http://www.grandmasteraudio.com/alur.jpg)

Thanks Igor, owe you big time!  ;D


Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on February 20, 2009, 03:27:18 PM
Looking great  :) What's the front finish? Where did you find that cute knob ?  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 20, 2009, 06:14:07 PM

Wow!

That looks great.  I'm really impressed.

I presume that's a front panel you've sent to Schaeffer for them to drill and engrave, rather than a piece if aluminium that they have picked and finished?  What's the finish that you've used there?

Also, it looks like there's some kind of smoked glass inset that covers the LED readout for level.  What kind of material is this and how did you fabricate it?

Cheers,

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on February 20, 2009, 06:54:05 PM
Hi Guys,

Thanks, yes i had it engraved by Schaffer, and its their own aluminum raw finish, they said they cant guarantee the raw finish but it looks wonderful to me.

As far as the screen insert, i found some tinted perspex and cut it to the shape of the insert i had cut out of the rear of the panel and carefully super glued it in.

I decided on a BIG knob from Banzai, and rather than sit it on top of the panel i cut it out of the panel, and using 10mm spacers the switches are almost flush with the panel... i like that..

but really Igor is the King in all this, i just put it together, that's the easy bit!

pete

 
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 21, 2009, 04:34:28 PM
HOLY sh*t DUDE!!!!

AWESOME LOOK!!!!!

Peter, I am a way happy with this project.

As VERY lazy person, I don't mind (for now at least) to sell things in big qty's.

But I'm happy my designs are working woldwide, prooved by quality and sound
by other people, and making good vibe and music.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Grand Master Audio on February 21, 2009, 05:01:43 PM
Hi Igor,

Thank you.

I never noticed until today that you can trim the MONO and DIM....how you get you head round designing the relay attenuator i have nooo idea...pure genius!

question:

when you set the trim some times it displays SAU? or some thing similar, what does this mean?

On another subject wait until you see my new Sontec front panel...i cant wait to show you!!

pete

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 21, 2009, 05:17:40 PM
Hehehe... Cool.

Peter, I never designed relay attenuator :)
It is old good trick to controll everything, remaining passive circuit.
There was a lot of info about this in Russian magazine "Radio" than later on DIY Audio forum.
I just wrote the "logic" etc which was programmed into PIC by other guy, and adapted this thing for
recording/mix/mastering studio needs as sound tech with some exp in past :)

Regarding SAV, it is SAVE. Sometimes (it is PIC bug/issue, we didn't found why),
after adjusting the TRIM (level offset) value, it saves current state as initial.
Nevermind.

To see TRIM (level offsets), press and hold TRIM, then corresponding input/output.
To exit TRIM screen, press TRIM again.

Will be happy to see new Sontec pannel.  I suggest it is same nice!!!!
:)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluebird on February 21, 2009, 05:56:28 PM
A little off topic but, may I ask what you use the Dolby units for? I heard people use them to get a little high end sizzle on vocals.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 24, 2009, 08:40:44 AM
Are there more people who finnished the kits?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on February 24, 2009, 08:59:35 AM
Almost... but I'm still waiting for my box  >:( BTW, did you sent me the additional parts I asked from you? I'm not in hurry ,just checking  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 24, 2009, 10:14:54 AM
E-mail sent.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 24, 2009, 12:33:49 PM

My boards are soldered but I'm still deciding on case options.

I'd really like to get this in a single box in my rack rather than a separate desktop controller, but I can't justify 4RU of space for it in the same way Pete has done.

Igor - can you tell me if there will be any issue flying the buttons and LEDs etc off the control board with ribbon cable?  That way I will be able to squeeze everything into a smaller case...

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 24, 2009, 05:34:50 PM
Hi Rob, I don't think there will be any issues with flying ( :) ) buttons....
First proto was a way wierd and messy, but worked fine with long wires coming from keyboard to PIC..
Switches are arranged as computer's keyboard matrix, then, no need to run all wires, see schemo.

MEC switches will fit fine on breadboard.

7-segment LED displays however can be a little prob to get off-board.
Too many wires.... Remember, I'm lazy :)
Best solution will be to take this one:
http://il.farnell.com/opto-images/b14m04n-r/led-display-red/dp/1210820
(they have same 3-wire and power supp. interface)
I used them at first CRM's, till these displays disappeared.

If you need one, can send with hookup schem, just PM me.

Other option is to bredboard controll pcb....Hmm, no, no way, forgive, it is MESS!!!!
:)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 25, 2009, 04:07:39 AM

Hehe ok sounds like it's a little tricky but possible.

Thanks for the advice Igor :)

PS - 33609 should be finished tonight.  Woo!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 25, 2009, 12:08:33 PM
Looking forward!
:)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ruairioflaherty on February 25, 2009, 12:29:12 PM
Hi Igor,

I just received my Sontec PCBs, lightning fast delivery ;) .  I'm considering this kit for my mastering room but I have a few questions, I've read the threads and taken a look at the schemo but would appreciate your help.

1) How is the mono function handled - is it purely passive?  I've seen people raise concerns about passive mono summing solutions before due to the source outputs having to drive a near short when the attenuation is set to a certain level. Any thoughts?

2) I'm not sure how the talkback combiner is implemented?  Is it possible to use the combiner board and set it up so that the TB signal only just goes straight to a dedicated set of outputs - in my case I could use the sub outs or add another set? 

Cheers,
Ruairi

 
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 25, 2009, 07:25:39 PM
Hi Ruairi, yap, I know about delivery ;)

10% off from CRM kit's price for your patience :)

Quote
1) How is the mono function handled - is it purely passive?  I've seen people raise concerns about passive mono summing solutions before due to the source outputs having to drive a near short when the attenuation is set to a certain level. Any thoughts?

Attenuator's impedance kept very low (3kOhm), it is the point op-amps at soundcard outs are still clean but attenuator's output impedance
worst case is about 800 Ohms, enough to drive long non-audiofool (2-5m cable) without sacrificing transient responce.
Mono function is passive sum through resistors, before attenuator, btw, you can add +6dB offset (user-define-able) for mono.

Quote
2) I'm not sure how the talkback combiner is implemented?  Is it possible to use the combiner board and set it up so that the TB signal only just goes straight to a dedicated set of outputs - in my case I could use the sub outs or add another set?

It is simple pair of line-receivers, resistors/opto network which combines source with electeret mic signal and take
level of playback 7 db down when TB pressed, followed by buffer...
In other words, make playback mix for performer on outs 3-4  of workstation; feed it into talkback combiner,
connect talkback combiner's out to phone amp, that's all.
Talkback combiner can be supplied from digital (12v) power supply, I used for this purpose $10 1W DC-DC converter (12->+/-15V).
In this case, TB combiner's ground fully separeted from digital ground.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ruairioflaherty on February 25, 2009, 07:42:36 PM
Hi Igor,

thanks for the response.  Just kidding about the Sontec delivery, it was no problem.

One last question.  Are the trim settings lost when the unit is plugged out?  If so is there any way around this - a battery backup or a cap perhaps?  i know this is a budget minded controller so I don't expect miracles, the important thing is the audio quality and we know that is good.

Thanks again,
Ruairi


Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 25, 2009, 07:52:39 PM
Quote
Are the trim settings lost when the unit is plugged out?  If so is there any way around this - a battery backup or a cap perhaps?
 

Yes and no. You can store current settings as initial, by pressing TRIM for 10 sec. System will start from stored settings as default.
All offsets, level, system state will be saved as well.
Battery backup... Possible. But, I'd prefer to set up all offsets once and store them,
and each time system switched on, to have it on silent level, WS to mains, etc...

Quote
i know this is a budget minded controller so I don't expect miracles, the important thing is the audio quality and we know that is good.

HMMMM.....I'd say it is not budget quality-wise...
I just simplified my commercially awailable CRM and made it as kit with less functions and easyer to build.
Israel is very small country and me tooo lazy to freak with export and mass-pro.
It not worth the nerve cells killed in a battle with burocracy and mass-market..
From other side, if CRM exists as finnished project,
someone has to enjoy and have fun?
;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Jeremy.Starseed on February 25, 2009, 08:09:59 PM
Hi.

Did I see the word "kit" somewhere toward the end of this thread? :P

I am curious...maybe not enough to build this thing from scratch, but a kit....niiiiice :)

What is included, and what would a rough estimate of cost be ?

Very nice example a few posts above btw. drool-worthy, even B)

Jeremy
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on February 25, 2009, 08:14:42 PM
Quote
Talkback combiner can be supplied from digital (12v) power supply, I used for this purpose $10 1W DC-DC converter (12->+/-15V).
In this case, TB combiner's ground fully separeted from digital ground.
Igor, can you tell me which DC-DC converter U used?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ruairioflaherty on February 25, 2009, 08:19:27 PM
Quote
Are the trim settings lost when the unit is plugged out?  If so is there any way around this - a battery backup or a cap perhaps?
 

Yes and no. You can store current settings as initial, by pressing TRIM for 10 sec. System will start from stored settings as default.
All offsets, level, system state will be saved as well.

This is all I need, once the unit boots with saved settings that is good enough.  It's mainly for the Mono button and the various speakers that you want it to be always the same.  For other level matching during a session it will always be changing anyhow.  Good solution as usual Igor!


Quote
i know this is a budget minded controller so I don't expect miracles, the important thing is the audio quality and we know that is good.

HMMMM.....I'd say it is not budget quality-wise...

Sorry I was not clear.  I have no doubts about the quality, I just want you to know that I do not expect the sun, moon and stars for €340!  I think this is an amazing kit.  I hope my questions will have been of use to other interested people too.

Stay well Igor,
Ruairi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ruairioflaherty on February 25, 2009, 08:22:02 PM
Hi.

Did I see the word "kit" somewhere toward the end of this thread? :P

I am curious...maybe not enough to build this thing from scratch, but a kit....niiiiice :)

What is included, and what would a rough estimate of cost be ?

Very nice example a few posts above btw. drool-worthy, even B)

Jeremy

All details are in Igor's Black market Sticky

Ordering:

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=29771.0

Look our for Purusha's cases on offer too.

Total would be very approx €500 depending on shipping (kit, case and PSU)

Cheers,
Ruairi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 25, 2009, 09:23:58 PM
OOPS...Just started to print and you answered better than me and on better english:)
Thanx!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 25, 2009, 09:30:03 PM
Quote
Igor, can you tell me which DC-DC converter U used?
Hi Moby, this one:
http://il.farnell.com/murata-power-solutions/mea1d1215sc/converter-dc-dc-sil-1w-15v/dp/1671264?_requestid=533100
farnell p/n 1671264
All info regarding talkback combiner:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=31609.0
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: yosh on March 08, 2009, 06:01:34 PM
This looks pretty awesome. I'll be ordering a kit as soon as I figure out some details for putting the whole thing together.

I've got a question:

What is the audio connector labeled "TBK/MTR" for? I'm assuming that stands for Talkbalk and Matrix, but on Purusha's cases it is labeled external phone amp. Can this output be used for different purposes?

Also, does the price for the CRM kit include the talkbalk combiner or is that an independent kit?

Thanks!

-Josh
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 08, 2009, 08:18:32 PM
Quote
What is the audio connector labeled "TBK/MTR" for?


It is monitored signal before level control and "talkback_on" logic output.
Can be used to connect VU-meter or phones amplifier.

Quote
Also, does the price for the CRM kit include the talkbalk combiner or is that an independent kit?

No, talkback combiner pcb is not included in kit. I can combine shipping for both.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Henning Svoren on March 29, 2009, 06:32:43 PM
Hi!
I've started soldering on my pcb's. They look amazing!
However I couldn't find the reset button and photo resistor in the kit.
Since I am still a bit unexperienced with this stuff I was hoping someone could give me a link or something
on the Farnell pages or parts number since I am about to order some stuff from them anyway?

Thank you!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 29, 2009, 08:42:14 PM
Hi Henning, it is all optional stuff. Power on/off in case to reset, unit will start from initial
settings, you can store every setup as initial by pressing down for 5-10 sec "trim" (offset) button.
Instead of LDR, just use 5k6-7k5 resistor.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Henning Svoren on March 30, 2009, 07:20:28 AM
Ok, Thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 30, 2009, 10:45:50 AM
When finnished and working, I want ROBOPORN for Bender!!!!!!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: yosh on April 01, 2009, 07:33:09 PM
Got my kit! Thanks Igor!

However, I am missing 5 of the relays. I haven't been able to source the same relay part # from Newark or Mouser (two places I will be ordering from soon.) I'd rather not place a separate order for these. Will any 1A/24VDC DPDT relay with the right footprint work?

-Yosh
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Sylvain D. on April 01, 2009, 08:04:49 PM
Hi Igor,

Is it assumed that the "talkback combiner" can be used independently from the "CRM"?
And do you have any talkback combiners left?

Sylvain


(p.s. please ignore my PM.  this was an error :-[)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on April 01, 2009, 10:46:52 PM
Got your PM, yes, I have some tens left, but prefer to sell them with CRM kits.
Here is the thread for tech info, questions like this please pm or black market.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on April 29, 2009, 04:22:40 PM
Hey Igor,

Just finishing off the soldering for this, and I have a couple of questions:

1.  I got 2 x 220uf caps, and 2 x 150uf caps, but the boards have space for 4 x 220uf caps (C6, C7, C8, C16).  Have I got the wrong caps, or is there an error on the boards?

2.  I have 4 x 7k5 resistors remaining, and the only spaces left on the board is for RL1 - 4, which is designated as 4k3.  Is 4k3 correct here?

3.  I'm missing the heatsink for one of the 7805s, and I see that the audio board in your photos doesn't have one either.  Is it a risk to leave it out altogether?

4.  I'm thinking about changing the  green LEDs for red LEDs.  Can you tell me whether the ones you sent are common anode or common cathode?  These are the ones I'm going to get:

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Optoelectronics/LED-Displays/10.9mm-(0.43in)-LED-Display/29382

Thanks!

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on April 30, 2009, 12:06:22 AM
Hi Rob,
Quote
1.  I got 2 x 220uf caps, and 2 x 150uf caps, but the boards have space for 4 x 220uf caps (C6, C7, C8, C16).  Have I got the wrong caps, or is there an error on the boards?
Use higher voltage at 12v side, lower at 5v side. IIRC 150uf for 5v. There's no matter capacitance, should be something in (470-100uf) range.
Quote
2.  I have 4 x 7k5 resistors remaining, and the only spaces left on the board is for RL1 - 4, which is designated as 4k3.  Is 4k3 correct here?
4k3 is right value. Let me know if your amp impedance less than 10k.
Quote
3.  I'm missing the heatsink for one of the 7805s, and I see that the audio board in your photos doesn't have one either.  Is it a risk to leave it out altogether?
Unless talkback combiner used and feed from 5v, no need for heatsink on 7805 at audio board.
I have some tens of 5->+/-15 V converters and used this on proto to feed talkback combiner,
however, 7805 was pretty hot but tolerable without heatsink. Better is to feed talkback combiner from 12->+/-15 converter.
P/N's were discussed before IIRC.
Quote
4.  I'm thinking about changing the  green LEDs for red LEDs.  Can you tell me whether the ones you sent are common anode or common cathode? 


Common anode, please compare datasheet to schematic by pin Nr's. Pin 14 common anode, 1=A, 13=B, 10=C...pin9=DP...etc.
Here's Farnell p/n's:
http://uk.farnell.com/avago-technologies/5082-7650/led-display-0-43-he-red/dp/1175577?_requestid=353990
http://uk.farnell.com/avago-technologies/5082-7651/led-display-0-43-he-red/dp/1175582?_requestid=354031

http://il.farnell.com/jsp/level5/module.jsp?moduleId=en/206269.xml
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ejod on May 04, 2009, 04:58:21 PM
considering I dont know anything about DIY:

I want to buy the cables for inputs/outputs. my question is will a standard 8 channel cable (25 pin to xlrs) work alright? or do I need the schematics of the pins and make it custom by myself?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ejod on May 05, 2009, 04:26:02 PM
bump

easy question for you DIYers, just need yes or no.

thanks alot
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Henning Svoren on May 05, 2009, 04:43:56 PM
you can buy off the shelf in most cases.(like here)
It's the tascam standard for Dsub25.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ejod on May 05, 2009, 04:58:27 PM
thanks alot mate.
i'll go purchase myself the cables :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on May 06, 2009, 04:19:47 AM
Hi, sorry for "fast" reply, yes, you can take off-the-shelve cable for db-25 side,
at other side it depends on your studio setup (xlr/pl/etc), please see schemo for
detailed pin-out.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on June 03, 2009, 04:32:30 PM
Between the controller and the relay board a standard VGA cable should be used, or am I wrong? I just tried to fire the unit up for the first time and as soon as I plug in a VGA cable in the relay/main board "to controller" socket (and only there - the other end of the cable is still not plugged in the controller box) the power supply shorts down (+12V dissapears) and starts to hum. When I unplug the VGA cable I clearly hear the relays clacking and the PSU works normally.

thanks
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 04, 2009, 01:29:36 PM
Hi Chris, take other VGA cable, maybe your cable is shorted. As well, power supply rated current should be 2A.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on June 04, 2009, 01:44:08 PM
Hey, tried about 6 different cables - Pin 4 on the mainboard is permanently connected to shield/ground on every VGA cable I have, so I just cut off pin 4 on the mainboard vga connector. +12V is still transmitted via 14/15.

christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 04, 2009, 02:08:16 PM
Cool... I used about 10 different manufacturer's VGA cables on more than 30 crm modules,
and pin4 never was connected to gnd.
Yes, just cut 4 on motherboard, will work fine.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on June 04, 2009, 03:40:11 PM
I also had to cut the trace from pin 4 to 14/15 on the little VGA board from the control unit. Now everything is working fine (at least it seems so, didn't connect any audio signals to it, but the relays clack as soon as I adjust the volume or in/output settings).

thanks!
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 04, 2009, 07:51:27 PM
OK, like to hear this. Let me know your sonic impressions.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on June 10, 2009, 11:32:02 AM
theoretically speaking it should be possible to expand this thing to 5.1? Is it just as simple as adding another 2 motherboards and feeding them the three control signals from the control unit?

thanks
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on June 10, 2009, 11:45:18 AM

Hi Christoph,

Answered by Igor on page 3 :

Hi Paul, this controller is made for stereo, but you can stack 3 audio boards.
If you don't need separate controll for front/rear speakers, it is OK.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 10, 2009, 11:47:57 AM
Yes, for level control only. Just hook 2 another motherboards on control signals in parallel.
If you need balance control like l/r or f/b, no.
It is easy to add mutes for lf/rf/....etc.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on June 12, 2009, 10:13:24 AM
thanks rob & igor - I knew that question had come up before, but I couldn't find it.

Any chance someone has a source for D-Sub mounting screws (to attach the female connectors to the case and secure attached male cables to the connector)? They should be M3, but the screws I've got won't fit?

thanks
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 15, 2009, 03:14:19 AM
Hi Chris, they are not M3, but american standard ones. If you can't find them,
pm me your shipping address, will send.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on June 15, 2009, 03:17:53 AM
So imperials? Will try to get them at a computer store - shouldn't be too hard...

cheers
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 15, 2009, 07:49:01 AM
Yap, this is standard stuff.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: guitarmaker on June 23, 2009, 12:25:05 PM
Received the CRM boards yesterday.  They look great!!  Any chance a BOM is on the horizon Igor?  Thanks.

Steve
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on June 24, 2009, 04:53:00 AM

Hi Igor,

My monitor controller is up and running and passing audio.  It works really nicely!  Just got a few more XLR ins and outs to solder and I'll post up some pics.

I have one question that I don't think has been answered yet.  When selecting speakers 1 or 2, when you pick one, it turns off the other.  But the sub on mine seems to work independently, which makes sense but was not what I was expecting.  Is there any way to change this so that there are 3 speaker outputs rather than two and an independent sub output which is either on or off?

Cheers,

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 29, 2009, 05:09:06 PM
Hi Rob, please mind, this is "cut-off" version of monitor module from my mastering console and goes as-is...
otherwice the price is bit different. I prefer to cut features instead cutting the audio quality.
Anyway, just adding some relays, toggle and xlr's will solve it :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on June 30, 2009, 03:34:20 PM

Hi Igor,

Yeah I understand - serves me right for not checking before labelling my front panel anyway :D

I have one question (read problem ;) )

All my source and speaker selectors work correctly, the volume knob works correctly and mono button works correctly.

However, when I press dim, it selects source 2, and when I press trim it also changes the source (presumably to 4 cos I hear the relays click, but that button is not hooked up on my monitor controller). 

I have looked at the schematic, and I see that input 2 and dim are connected, and also input 4 and trim are connected too.  I have gone round with a multimeter making sure there are no shorts based on what should be connected in the schematic, but I can't find anything that seems wrong.

Do you have any idea what could cause the dim button to select input 2?  I'm sure this must be a wiring issue, but do you have any idea where to look based on my explanation as I am stuck?

Bear in mind that I have wired all my controls off board so there is the potential for short circuits etc, but this did all work properly before I put it in the case, so I'm worried now that I may have damaged the CRM chip.  Could this be possible?

Thanks,

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on June 30, 2009, 03:55:51 PM
Rob, if control chip was damaged, it was not work at all or whole port was not working...
Seems it is short. Check everything on keyboard. It arranged as key matrix, so,
you don't need many wires to hook it to controller.
If you need another crm chip to check, please pm.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: kibadachi on July 24, 2009, 12:32:06 PM
Hi Igor,

My source and speaker selectors work correctly.
The problem i experience is with the volume knob. The left channel works correctly from cut to 0, but the right channel works 2 steps correct and then fails 2 steps, then the next 2 steps are correct again and then the next 2 steps fail again and so on... This is repeated from cut to 0. (2 up, 2 down, 2 up, 2 down, 2 up 2 down,.....)
I checked for shorts or loose ends but I can't find anything that seems wrong.
Do you have any idea what could cause this ?  As it is so consistent in behaviour i realise it wil be probably just one little part  that i overlook or have damaged.
Do you have an idea where to look based on my explanation?


Thanks,

Jeffrey
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on July 24, 2009, 02:15:07 PM
Chekc the relays, seems like one is sticky

cheers
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: kibadachi on July 24, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
Hi Cristoph,

Thanks for the reply. that would mean this sticky relay is used every thirth and fourth time.
I tried to find some info on how the resistors and relays are combined, with no luck. It seems one component is used with every thirth and fourth step. By the schematics here i just see the parts but not the real math to combine the resistors to the right value. If you know a topic where this is handled feel free to chime in.


Grtx,

Jeffrey
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on July 24, 2009, 02:47:56 PM
Haven't thought that through either, but maybe you are able to feel/hear the relay clack and find the dodgy one?

good luck,
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on July 25, 2009, 06:34:37 PM
Check the voltages across relay's coils, on relays marked 2R and 4R on PCB. Check resistor's values at steps 2 and 4 as well.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: DAN_000 on September 17, 2009, 12:30:16 AM
Hi Igor,    shem_audio.gif  link seems to be broken,   can you repost it ?
Thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on September 17, 2009, 03:48:39 PM
Right-click, save as....
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: DAN_000 on September 17, 2009, 07:07:44 PM
Thanks, link is up again.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Rafita on September 23, 2009, 12:29:40 PM
Hi Igor if we want to add a plasma display to the CRM we need to add another transformer , rigth for the +/- 15v rigth ?

if Each display runs on approx. 20 mA 245V, 30 mA +/-15V.


can use this ?
http://mx.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pulse/BV020-54220/?qs=90dkOR22QT7qW4znkoNrsw%3d%3d (http://mx.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pulse/BV020-54220/?qs=90dkOR22QT7qW4znkoNrsw%3d%3d)

Thank's for all your help.

my sontec 8 was done last month , i'll post some pictures later , and sound examples , rigth now it's been used on a mixing session , my friend is raving about it .
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on September 23, 2009, 08:37:31 PM
Quote
can use this ?
http://mx.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Pulse/BV020-54220/?qs=90dkOR22QT7qW4znkoNrsw%3d%3d
If you need 30ma than you can't use 0.35VA (7ma) transformer
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on September 26, 2009, 06:36:55 PM
hi are any of these power supplies better than the others (or are any not appropriate at all)
http://mouser.com/Power/Linear-Switching-Power-Supplies/_/N-wp5hZscv7?P=1z0wdj3Z1z0y706Z1z0z54rZ1z0z5fmZ1z0wdd4Z1z0wdceZ1z0wcriZ1z0waurZ1z0wcr6Z1z0wbmwZ1z0wdc0Z1yzxqxtZ1z0wdbrZ1yzxskcZ1z0wcqiZ1z0wcflZ1z0wbdhZ1z0wd8cZ1z0iwjhZ1z0wcquZ1z0wcqsZ1z0wbn5Z1z0wdcwZ1z0wda1 (http://mouser.com/Power/Linear-Switching-Power-Supplies/_/N-wp5hZscv7?P=1z0wdj3Z1z0y706Z1z0z54rZ1z0z5fmZ1z0wdd4Z1z0wdceZ1z0wcriZ1z0waurZ1z0wcr6Z1z0wbmwZ1z0wdc0Z1yzxqxtZ1z0wdbrZ1yzxskcZ1z0wcqiZ1z0wcflZ1z0wbdhZ1z0wd8cZ1z0iwjhZ1z0wcquZ1z0wcqsZ1z0wbn5Z1z0wdcwZ1z0wda1)
thanks for your help, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on September 27, 2009, 04:15:28 AM

Hey Ben,

Any 30W 12V 2.5A will be OK. 

This

http://gb.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/PLP-30-12/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMu0oxGuRuNKH2AbvLnMOowNFp3ta1JkQBI%3d

will work.  I can't see the prices of all the options because Mouser won't ship some of the stuff on that page to the UK, but I don't thinnk there's any need to spend more that the $ equivalent of £20 - £25
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on September 27, 2009, 07:21:25 PM
Thanks Rob! - Best, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: misioka on October 02, 2009, 08:48:27 PM
Hi

What alps encoder J must use (resolution, impulses)

on controler pcb condensers are in pf or other value.

Thanx
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on October 27, 2009, 05:44:09 PM
Hey Igor, where did you get your knob - I've had a hard time finding ones without markings that I like the look of.  Thanks, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on October 28, 2009, 12:20:33 AM
Hey,

Just wondering if its possible to turn one of the inputs into a mono output for a single speaker, or would this require heaps of pcb modification.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 03, 2009, 05:31:13 AM
Not much...just cut some traces, add some wires :)
Knobs are available from Farnell, Mouser, etc...many types.
I found mine in local electronics store :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on November 10, 2009, 05:59:57 AM
I just built a t-pad to attenuate my active monitors, but I feel like the impedance doesn't really match, since I have sudden volume jumps at certain steps of my crm. What's the typical output impedance of the crm? My speakers have an input impedance of 10k.

Thanks!
Christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 10, 2009, 01:51:11 PM
In general: attenuator's load for precision steps should be 3k each side, plus or minus, to ground.
It already terminated with RL1, LL2, 3, 4. For 10k amp(active speaker) input impedance, Rl should be 4k3.

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on November 11, 2009, 04:49:59 AM
thanks Igor - so to get this straight: MY H-Pad in between the crm output and my active speaker input should have a ~5k input impedance (this is the load for the crm, roughly 2k on each +/- leg and a 1k shunt) and a 4k3 output impedance (this is what the active amp 'sees').

Many thanks!
christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 11, 2009, 07:23:12 AM
I quite can't understand why do you need a pad at the output....anyway.
Try to do it as two L-pads, if Rl=4k3, each pad is 10k input resistance, both are grounded.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on November 11, 2009, 07:58:31 AM
I've got a master recorder hooked up on output 7-8, with fixed input gain. In order to get unity gain from da to ad (so the metering is correct etc.) I can't attenuate my ad chain. My speakers have +/-6dB gain control, which means they are freaking loud and I have a usuable gain range of -60 to -45 on the crm.

Sorry I don't quite get your L-Pad recommendation, I always thought for balanced line-level connections a balanced H-Pad would be best?

Thanks
Christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 11, 2009, 12:04:14 PM
OK, now I understand. Remove Rl, and use 6k total input resistance H-pad,
something like 2k-2k5-2k.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 11, 2009, 01:14:59 PM
any suggestions for mounting the microphone for talkback? I suppose I'll just mount it in the rack portion? drill some small holes in a circular pattern, and mount the mic on the inside? (purusha's case came with no provision for mounting the mic) something that looks like this for the holes is what i was thinking:
(http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr05/images/spl2381header.l.jpg)

Also, after much thought, I still don't understand how the tbc is supposed to integrate with the crm. I understand the power and talkback-on connections, but how does the audio integrate? The 9-pin connector is labeled TBK, but where is that supposed to go and how does it connect to the TBC? What is the purpose of having the talkback-on pins on the 9 pin connector? remote talkback switch? Sorry for all the questions - I stared at the schematics for many hours trying to make sense of it. Best, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 11, 2009, 02:01:28 PM
Mounting the talkback mic: I prefer cheap "Soundblaster" microphone mounted near the PC screen.
Yes, 9 pin connector used for external talkback combiner.
TB mic easy can be integrated through the option of talkback combiner PCB.
It powered from 12V relay's/digital supply, via onboard 12->+/-15V dc/dc converter.
Feed audio to TB combiner IN, connect phones amp to TB combiner out...done.
More info on this-here:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=31609.0
The box on photo looks very nice, but not as precision and clean as passive relay-based box. Just my mind.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 11, 2009, 04:40:31 PM
Thanks Igor - now I see. your talking about a mic like this:
(http://tuneintopodcasts.wikispaces.com/file/view/microphone.jpg/49267787)
I bought this fellow here:
http://www.projectsunlimited.com/audioproducts/movieclips/products/audioDetailPrint.asp?CATEGORY=4&PARTNUMBER=AOM-6545L-R&GUID={2319C8F1-BB00-44B4-A9C0-3257E8B5FD72} (http://www.projectsunlimited.com/audioproducts/movieclips/products/audioDetailPrint.asp?CATEGORY=4&PARTNUMBER=AOM-6545L-R&GUID={2319C8F1-BB00-44B4-A9C0-3257E8B5FD72})
with the intention of mounting it in the rack case with the audio board.
The box on photo looks very nice, but not as precision and clean as passive relay-based box. Just my mind.
I agree - I looked at every option for an off-the-shelf monitor controller and decided it was worth investing in the CRM. Anything else in that price range would have been a compromise that I would have likely had to replace later.

I have a TBC board and am going to install it in the rack-mount case with the CRM audio board. The 1/4" jacks for the TBC are normalling jacks: can I wire the MTRL and MTRR outs on the crm to the normal audio inputs on the TBC? That way when nothing is plugged into the 1/4" input jacks it will normal to whatever source is selected by the CRM.

Thanks, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 11, 2009, 04:53:45 PM
Yes, MTRL and MTRR outs are same signal which goes to monitoring.
Good idea can be "normally-connect" MTR outs to TB combiner's jacks, on bottom side of pcb, and,
if separate mix for phones needed, connect outs 3-4 of soundcard to TB combiner from outside.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 11, 2009, 05:07:56 PM
Exactly what I was thinking. Glad to know that it will work - Thanks, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 11, 2009, 06:35:42 PM
Yep. Let us know when it finnished, working, etc!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 15, 2009, 08:56:44 PM
Hey Igor, got mine up and running. I will post pics in a few days. It is fantastic! I was wondering about a mute option. The only way I see to mute the output is by turning the volume all the way down - to "cut". Would it be possible to configure it so that you can toggle speakers on and off? So if I had speaker 1 on and hit the speaker 1 button again it would go off, without having to turn on speaker 2? Thanks for the great design! Best, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 16, 2009, 06:44:21 AM
You can use "dim" button as CUT. Press trim+dim, like ctrl+c, set offset -50, press trim, press dim, done.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 16, 2009, 01:45:32 PM
Thanks Igor -  did that, and -50 is lowest it will let me set the dim to - wont go all the way to cut. If there is not a way to do it, that's ok - I'll figure out a work-around or I'll just turn the volume all the way down when I need to do I take - I track in the same room as the console, so I need no volume. Any further ideas would be appreciated. Pictures soon. Best, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 16, 2009, 03:30:35 PM
Sorry. I can't give any ellegant and simple solution here, without re-programming the controller chip.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mks on November 20, 2009, 02:59:42 PM
Just curious the (minimum) dimensions of the control surface is for this? I'm about to build a workstation and need to decide whether to build a 3U of 4U section for this. Looks like it wouldn't quite fit into a 3U.

Thanks to anyone that can answer this.
Take care,

Marc
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on November 20, 2009, 03:58:51 PM
Just curious the (minimum) dimensions of the control surface is for this? I'm about to build a workstation and need to decide whether to build a 3U of 4U section for this. Looks like it wouldn't quite fit into a 3U.

Thanks to anyone that can answer this.
Take care,

Marc

Hi Marc,

Depends on how creative you're willing to be ;)

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=35018.msg429095#msg429095

As you can see, this did require some breadboarding and quite a lot of extra wiring though...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on November 20, 2009, 05:00:30 PM
Hey,

Just wondering if you could elaborate more on how to turn just one of the inputs into an output.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mks on November 21, 2009, 11:58:26 AM
That's a beauty Rob! Thanks. You just gave me a little shove over the edge there ;)

Marc
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 21, 2009, 04:01:01 PM
If someone need .cdr file for measurements/etc, feel free to pm.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on November 23, 2009, 05:28:07 AM
EDIT: Too expensive to buy.

Better question. What wattage do i need for this project

i'll be running the CRM, plasma displays and talkback meter.

Just a bit of a bump for my questions a couple of posts up as well. Just don't wanna screw anything up if i start cutting traces.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 23, 2009, 10:46:08 AM
It was discussed on this thread some time ago how to convert the system into 2xIN/4xOUT.
Regarding the other changes... Sorry, the kit is complete, I don't want to ask my friend to rewrite program.
This kit is really excellent quality, and IMHO most clean audio-wise level control solution for less than $1.8k (for today).
BUT it has limited functionality in compare to CRM modules/mastering consoles I sell commercially.

To run plasma, talkback, and CRM.
In general: 12V/2A switching power supply for CRM/TB combiner, 2x(18...25)V 20-30VA toroidal trafo for plasma.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on November 23, 2009, 01:56:33 PM
Ahh, so its too much work just to switch one of the inputs over (not really looking to switch all inputs and outputs as discussed)


And i'll need two transformers to run everything? Fair enough. Or could i do something similar to the talkback with just a 12-24 converter.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 24, 2009, 08:24:02 AM
The matter is not work, but my time. I can't put here custom and hopefully working solution for every request....sorry.
Regarding 2 transformers: it is not 2 transformers but 12V 2A switching
mode power supply and 2x (18...25)V 20...30VA toroidal trafo. I think this is simplest way to fire everything up.
There are +5V dig, +12V dig, +/-15V talkback combiner, +/-15V for plasma VU meter
(it is noisy, I'd not recommend to hook it on same supply as TB combiner),
and +245V for plasma display. Sure, there are many elegant solutions as building quiet switching power supply
for 6 outputs, but....trust me, the comb of 12V SW PS and toroid is the simplest one.

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on November 24, 2009, 01:47:03 PM
Thats cool man, just wondering if there was an easy way for everyone.

I'm guessing i lose sub functionality if i reverse the inputs and outputs. As in i can't use two outputs at the same time.
And by reverse the inputs/outputs could i just simply send the inputs down the outputs and vice versa or does it actually have to be hard wired on the board.



Sorry for the question, i just don't want to destroy this beautiful board of yours.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 24, 2009, 07:16:10 PM
Nuff to destroy :)
Leave it as-is, SUB can be added over OUT1/2.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: guitarguy12387 on December 22, 2009, 09:29:28 PM
Hey guys,

Bit of a noob here trying to learn, so bear with me!

So i'm trying to figure how the in/out impedances are figured. For example, i want to know how you maintain a 3k impedance seen by the sound card. So i take the load resistance (10k) parallel with the shunt resistor and add the series resistor. This results in impedances varying from around 7.5k to 3k. What am i missing?

Also, i'm looking at the mono implementation and i cannot make heads or tails of it... anyone feel kind enough to walk me through it?

I sincerely appreciate any help!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 23, 2009, 09:21:41 PM
The input impedance (seen by soundcard out) is 3k to ground at each + or - output.
Every attenuator's stage is calculated so, that we have 1,2,4,8,etc. db attenuation at 3k load.
If we need 19db attenuation, 16, 2,1 attenuators cascaded. Worst case, audio passing 6 attenuator's stages at -63 db.
Work situation, we need -40...-15db attenuation, audio passes 1...4 attenuator's stages (8 resistors max).

Compared to 10:11 resistors with Elma switch at mid (normal work position), it is IMHO better solution....
Ah yes, for audio-purists, relay contacts are goldplated and hermetically sealed,
i.e. no distortion caused by oxidation after year of work in smoking studio :)
I.e. pipe amateurs can use it!!!!

Power amp see output of soundcard through relay contacts at 0 attenuation;
Worst case of output impedance seen by power amp is approx. 1k2. I am not good at mathematics,
but can calculate it if someone persists :)

For precision 1dB steps, CRM monitor output should be loaded at 3k, however,
the steps will be within +/-0.5dB at 2...6k load.

There are attenuator's load resistors, RL on schematic.

Choose them so then Rl in parallel with your amp input will give 3k.

If different input impedance amplifiers used, take higher value for Rl, and terminate higher value amplifier with resistor at the input.

Anyway, perfect load termination does not affects or improoves audio quality, it is just precision.
Take RL in range 4k3...7k5 and be happy with +/-0.5 db steps at any amp with 5....20K input impedance :)

Mono: 3k resistors inserted between soundcard out and attenuator's input,
than tied together.
There is an offset which can be used to correct -6 dB insertion loss at mono;
press trim+mono, adjust say +6db, press trim again.. Every time MONO is ON, microcontroller will add 6dB to attenuator's value,
of course, if the level is lower than -6dB. Working level (normally) is between -40....-15dB, so, it quite correct.
Current system's state with all offsets, etc. is stored by holding the TRIM button for 5-8 sec.
Next time system powered on, it will be the initial state.

Huh...hope it is clear, despite my english :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 23, 2009, 09:40:18 PM
BTW. About 40 CRM kits are working arround the world. I very happy with it,
just because clean monitoring is one of important tools to make a good sounding music...
More good music=good!
So, if this makes happy someone except me, cool and enjoy!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: theshadowpanelist on January 26, 2010, 03:54:38 PM
Hi Igor

My tech friend is in the process of modifying my CRM to 2in 4out.

We are having some problems, in that the attenuator is not working and the 3 new inputs are not switching as expected. There is also a lot of bleed between the inputs.

Any ideas what may be wrong?

The ins are connected by d-sub to the main board via my d-sub patchbay. However we have checked them with a mogami snake I had and they are still doing the same thing.

The outputs are on XLR but they are switching OK.

In the instructions of how to do the mod you mentioned that we need to cut the connections to ground on outputs. Is this the same as cutting the bottom layer traces? Or do would we need to something extra.

It may be worth mentioning that this CRM is the silver one pictured earlier in the thread which I bought from Peter [Sinestar]. However we have separated the remote out and put the main unit in a rack behind the desk.

Cheers in advance for any help
George
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: theshadowpanelist on January 27, 2010, 08:45:03 AM
Anybody else know what this could be?

Need to get sorted asap. I'm having to turn work away as this is an essential part of my studio.

Cheers
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: guitarguy12387 on January 29, 2010, 05:07:24 PM
Hey,

Back again, trying to understand the schematic :)

What is the purpose of the 68 ohm R's? i.e. R3-R5?

thanks again!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 01, 2010, 05:08:19 PM
Hi, the purpose of r3-r5 is to tie shorted (muted) amp's inputs to ground without hum if amp is unbalanced at all.
I know, this is 0.01% case, but...anyway.

Quote
Hi Igor

My tech friend is in the process of modifying my CRM to 2in 4out.

I mentioned I can't always give support on modifications....the kits are AS-IS. Anyway.
Just finnished to move the lab to new bigger place and overloaded with tones of stuff.
Well, let's go little by little. Did this worked before the mod?

Quote
We are having some problems, in that the attenuator is not working and the 3 new inputs are not switching as expected.
There is also a lot of bleed between the inputs.
Any ideas what may be wrong?

OK.... You mean cross-talk? Many missing info.

Grounds. Wiring. Pictures please.

Attenuator is not working: can you see 7-segment display changes according to rotary's rotation?
Do you hear relay's clicks from step to step?

Quote
The ins are connected by d-sub to the main board via my d-sub patchbay.
However we have checked them with a mogami snake I had and they are still doing the same thing.

Huh. What is "same thing"? I am stupid Russian without multilanguage W7 support. PleaZZ slow :)

Quote
The outputs are on XLR but they are switching OK.

It means, the outputs are wired to external XLR's via Molex 3-pin connectors?

Please suport some pictures after mods. It will be helpfull to solve the issue.

Quote
In the instructions of how to do the mod you mentioned that we need to cut the connections to ground on outputs. Is this the same as cutting the bottom layer traces? Or do would we need to something extra.

Just see schematic. Idea is we swapping the input and output selectors. The input now is output.

Remove 68R resistors. White lines are indicating traces to cut from bottom. Signal now comes to "/outputs/" 1-2,
than goes to attenuator's INPUT (connect 4 wires) than goes from attenuator's OUTPUT to "/input/" selector (connect 4 wires).
Hope it is clear.

Quote
It may be worth mentioning that this CRM is the silver one pictured earlier in the thread which I bought from Peter [Sinestar]. However we have separated the remote out and put the main unit in a rack behind the desk.

OK. Will try to help in a free minute.

Peter told me his CRM was working fine without any issues. Let me know more about "mods".
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mpc3000limited on February 05, 2010, 09:19:54 PM
Anyone else have some pics of finished unit's? I am interested to see what people did with finishing! The mastering rack setup Sinestaraudio did is phenomenal for sure!~  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on February 05, 2010, 09:25:25 PM
i'll be finishing mine in about a month?  ::)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on February 07, 2010, 09:26:05 AM
Anyone else have some pics of finished unit's?

http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=35018.0
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Tim Campbell on March 03, 2010, 03:53:43 AM
Dear Igor,
We have 2 of these units. Both have had problems with encoders. When first assembled everything works fine but after a week or so they begin to have intermittent problems with deciding if they are turning up or down and eventually they only work in one direction. We've tried several different encoders with the same result.

Also one of the units stopped working completely. At power up it displays U20 and then freezes with talback, input 1 and speaker 3 lit and the display at 0 and is completely unresponsive. Any ideas?

( I'm editing this but leaving this question in case someone else has a similar problem) The error U20 message was caused by a sticking #3 input(or output after mod) switch.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 03, 2010, 05:15:29 AM
Tim, please check everything include power supply and especially
values of capacitors near the rotary encoder.
Maybe, there's a bad contact.
Check for shorts on pcb as well.
I never had prob like this, except if power supply has really bad contact,
the chip can go into wrong state.
It seems like both units have same wrong value resistor or capacitor,
or power supply is way noisy, or somehow it went into wrong configuration and was saved.
After checking every bit of hardware, do next.
Hold TRIM button than power on unit. You see S(e)TU(p).
Press in1 button, TRIM again, check all trim inserts are OK,
save initial state with all zeroed trims, than power off, wait minute, power on.

BTW, are these units were done from kits or you sourced the parts yourself?
Pics can be helpful.

There was another issue with guy who "modified" already working unit.
Really, this is not simple project and I simply can't give support
for every wrong case / have no time!!!! /. From the other side, if everything done carefully
and no mistakes, CRM works from first fireup.
I can offer next: if unit assembled from my kit, send it to me,
and we will fix it for a minor fee.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mik on March 22, 2010, 09:33:42 AM
HI folks, I' ve to build mine CRM, so I need  to know what is IC5. an witch type of encoder
I've to use.

thanx

Mik
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 22, 2010, 02:48:18 PM
Hi Mik, there was a BOM posted on this thread.
IC5:
1    MM5540     LED CONTROLLER WITH BRIGHTNESS  IC5
http://il.farnell.com/micrel/mm5450yn/led-display-driver-34-seg-5450/dp/1213480

ALPS ROTARY ENCODER
http://il.farnell.com/alps/ec12e1220401/encoder-vertical-12-det-12ppr/dp/1520809?_requestid=8119
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on March 22, 2010, 03:17:24 PM
Hey, just finished my CRM with VU and talkback, just putting it in a box now. Will have pictures soon.

Just wondering if there were any things that i'd need to know, i saw to set dim level you hold down trim and dim and set it, then press trim then dim and it saves it. Anything else like that? Also setting Input/Output offsets?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mik on March 24, 2010, 07:34:08 AM
thank you Igor, were's the link of the BOM ? I can't find it.

Mik.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 29, 2010, 12:28:49 PM
The microcontroler comes with all settings inside, no need to do anything special.
Pictures are more then welcome!
@mik: I mailed you the BOM.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: TheGuitarist on March 29, 2010, 06:05:41 PM
Will do soon, just trying to trouble shoot some problems with my TB combiner, mic isn't working... but that could be the mic, works with my computer, just gotta work that out.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: syn on April 07, 2010, 03:51:59 PM
Hi
    anyone have part no. for green display (farnell or digikey). I found this one at digikey (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?lang=en&site=US&WT.z_homepage_link=hp_go_button&KeyWords=HDSP-4601&x=0&y=0)  but
i'm not sure is it the right thing- data sheets are so confusing, for this stuff.
Thank you
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on April 17, 2010, 06:48:02 PM
http://il.farnell.com/jsp/level5/module.jsp?moduleId=en/206269.xml
Common anode, 8.
HDSP-4601 should work, according to datasheet.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on April 20, 2010, 10:44:25 PM
Hi folks,

There are two chips which I just wanted to understand a bit better - they both have A6833SEPT printed on them on one line, but then below they are different:

1 - 0834
   - 0834023MDAA

2 - 0710
   - 0710347MDAA

Are they both exactly the same (and can go in either socket) with the different numbers indicating they are from different batches, or are they different and do they each need to go in a specific place?

The schematics say A6833 in both places so my guess is that they are the same, I just wanted to double check.

Thanks!

D :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on April 20, 2010, 10:45:55 PM
One other very quick question - I have a dead LED on one of the buttons, does anyone know if it's possible to swap the LED itself for a new one, or would I need to get a whole new switch?

And if anyone has a part number (and/or link in North America) for either or both of these I'd be hugely grateful.

Thanks in advance,

D :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on April 21, 2010, 03:06:41 AM
make sure it's not just reversed ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on April 21, 2010, 03:51:57 PM
Hahaha that is a VERY good point!

I checked it with my multimeter and it is definitely not working, all my other LEDs light when I tested them...

I wish it had been such simple solution though!

Anyone else with any insight about those chips or a replacement LED?

Thanks,

D :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on April 22, 2010, 04:14:39 AM

Yes - you should just be able to replace them with a 3mm LED of the correct colour.  The dome topped kind, not flat top.

The only issue you may run into is a slightly different brightness if the LED is not exactly the same spec.

If you want to source a whole new switch, search your normal supplier for MEC.  I'm not in the US, but here's where I get them from in the UK.  You should be able to find part numbers here :

http://www.rapidonline.com/Electronic-Components/Switches/Tactile-Switches/3FTL6-IP67-Tactile-switch-for-cap/80566

You need to order the cap separately.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: DIY-solder on April 22, 2010, 08:37:13 AM
I just bought new monitors (Event Opal) and with Igor's CRM I hear loud clicking when switching between all monitors.  ???
The click only comes from these new monitors. Looks like they are sensitive to some changes when switching....

Is there anything it could be done inside the CRM to reduce or avoid these clicks?


Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Tim Campbell on April 23, 2010, 06:01:41 AM
The problems I was having seemed to be caused by poor construction ( not me!!). I changed the encoders to Alps STEC16B02 but they only work correctly in reverse ( to left turns up/ right turns down). I assume this is because of an incorrect pulse length. I'm hesitant to use specified original EC12E encoders because of the problems I had. Is there another  high quality encoder you would recommend?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on April 23, 2010, 07:05:10 AM
Quote
The problems I was having seemed to be caused by poor construction ( not me!!)
Can you please point me to this person?

Quote
I changed the encoders to Alps STEC16B02 but they only work correctly in reverse ( to left turns up/ right turns down). I assume this is because of an incorrect pulse length.

To change PULSE LENGTH, swap the encoder's signal output pins, this will give you
correct PULSE LENGTH to get right direction.

@diy-solder: had same question from Purusha by mail....strange.
Check fro DC offsets. Maybe, input stage of new speakers has a tendency to oscillate.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: DIY-solder on April 23, 2010, 07:11:13 AM
Quote
Check fro DC offsets. Maybe, input stage of new speakers has a tendency to oscillate.

How exactly do I check this?

BTW, I never got any replay by email... strange.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on April 25, 2010, 04:09:36 PM
Hi all, just a bump for an earlier question:

There are two chips which I just wanted to understand a bit better - they both have A6833SEPT printed on them on one line, but then below they are different:

1 - 0834
   - 0834023MDAA

2 - 0710
   - 0710347MDAA

Are they both exactly the same (and can go in either socket) with the different numbers indicating they are from different batches, or are they different and do they each need to go in a specific place?

The schematics say A6833 in both places so my guess is that they are the same, I just wanted to double check.

Thanks so much,

D :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on April 25, 2010, 08:02:14 PM
Hi, A6833 is serial input 32-bit relay driver. Both are same.
Please check for "key" both socket and chip, when installing them.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on April 25, 2010, 10:27:51 PM
Awesome, thanks Igor!

D :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on May 02, 2010, 02:10:16 PM
So I've read every page of this thread and still don't see a BOM. If one exists, I would love to see it.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on May 02, 2010, 04:22:25 PM
PM me your mail address, for BOM.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gec on May 05, 2010, 12:53:14 PM
HI, In the kit I received I got 24V relays...
-without talkback combiner can I use a 24Vdc switching power supply like this?:
http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/acs40us24/psu-open-pcb-40w-24v/dp/1109811

thanks for your help, Gec
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on May 06, 2010, 07:43:19 PM
There are two options...
Please check if relays are marked:
M4-12H
1A/24VDC
0.5A/120V DC

M4-12H is 12 v relays. "1A/24VDC 0.5A/120V AC" related to contacts current.
This is good option.

If they are marked M4-24 or something like this...this is not bad option as well,
my first CRM design was running on 24 volts for all relays.

You can do it on 24V of course. Be sure heatsinks are instaled on 7805.

If relays are wrong type (I doubt, but all can be :)
please pm me your shipping address, I will send 12V relays without a charge,
just send me back 24V relays.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gec on May 07, 2010, 02:02:05 AM
 :-[ I'm an idiot, it's the M4-12H...sorry. gec.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on May 07, 2010, 04:09:26 AM
Not idiot, it is OK, all these electronic parts have messy markings :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on September 12, 2010, 11:22:51 PM
Did anyone ever get a mute switch figured out on these?  I'm interested in building one for my mastering room, without talkback, and a mute switch would be the only thing missing.

On your original Igor, you've got 2 speakers and 1 sub.  I assume this could just be 3 speakers?  Or is #3 a latched switch that is meant to connect with another speaker, like the Presonus Central station?

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: crisotop on September 13, 2010, 02:17:16 AM
Out 3 is latching (but the in/outputs of the unit can easily be swapped to a 3 in and 4 out configuration). The amount of attenuation of the dim switch is also variable, this could be your missing mute switch?

Hth, christoph
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on September 13, 2010, 02:23:40 AM
The amount of attenuation of the dim switch is also variable, this could be your missing mute switch?

Not variable enough to act as a mute. If anyone figured this out it would be a breakthrough. I have to turn mine down all the way whenever I want to mute it (which is pretty often). Its definitely the biggest drawback on an otherwise great piece of gear.

Best, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on September 13, 2010, 04:31:53 PM
Gotta be some easy way to build a mute switch into these, no?

Sounds like just the unit I need for my mastering room.  I've contacted Igor about the kit price mentioned on the first post of this thread, but his other thread in the White Market doesn't mention the kit at all.  Anyone know if the kits are long gone?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on September 13, 2010, 06:11:23 PM
Gotta be some easy way to build a mute switch into these, no?

Sounds like just the unit I need for my mastering room.  I've contacted Igor about the kit price mentioned on the first post of this thread, but his other thread in the White Market doesn't mention the kit at all.  Anyone know if the kits are long gone?

I think they are I'm afraid.  I recall Igor mentioning he was having a clearout of some of his projects and would not be restocking them after they'd all gone.

I've built the mastering controller though and there are no particularly obscure parts, just a lot of relays!  However, a BOM never did materialise despite me requesting it at the time, but in the end I didn't need it.  If you can get that you should have no probs whatsoever getting the parts you need.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on September 13, 2010, 06:35:57 PM
Ok cool, I'll just order the PCB's from Igor then.

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on September 23, 2010, 03:51:49 PM
Hello all,

I finally got a chance to plug in my CRM and was absolutely delighted with it the evening I fired it up, it worked beautifully! I have it paired with an Apogee Rosetta 800 converter on my project setup with a Pro Tools Digi 002, you don't need me to tell you how much better it was listening through the CRM after being plugged straight into the stock digidesign converters and their built in monitoring section. I'm really impressed and grateful that Igor hooked this project up for us.

The next day though things went a bit weird, I got the U20 message on power up, then lost the ability to control volume on Spkr 1, and while Spkr 2 worked the display didn't change along with the level. Spkr1 was stuck at one fixed volume; no lovely click click from the relays anymore, though Spkr2 still changed volume while the display remained fixed at -14.

On top of this, when switching between speakers there would be a terrifying loud click sent to Spkr 1 - just one big nasty transient.

I read through this thread in the evening and found Tim Campell's post about tracing a fault back to a sticky button on In3. Today I bashed away on that same button and found that switching inputs back and forth a bit does allow me to now control the volume on Spkr 1, but the big click is still there on switching, and the unit always boots up displaying the U20 message and "defaults" to the faulty scenario described above (no relay/volume control on Spkr1, display fixed at -14 even when Spkr 2 is changing volume, and big click when switching speakers)

Does anyone have any idea why this might be happening? The unit has not been moved at all since the first night when it worked absolutely perfectly, the only thing that has happened since then is that it's been switched off then on again. I'm wondering if there might have been some kind of crazy rogue power surge that messed with the chip, or maybe if the fact that I hadn't pressed In3 that first night might have not revealed a problem on that part of the circuit.

Any thoughts most gratefully appreciated - I can't stand the thought of switching back to the monitor outputs of my Digi 002 but am worried about doing damage to my monitors from the transient on switching.

Cheers,

D :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on September 23, 2010, 04:39:04 PM
Thanx for note about sound quality.
To be honest, it is one of world cleanest possible level controllers.

For further use: TRIM+another button means you press TRIM, hold it,
than press another button like SPK1 for example, then leave fingers from both buttons.
Exactly same way as CTL+C.


Mute function.
There is a DIM button
After startup message, U20, press TRIM+DIM, exactly like you press CTL+C.
You will see -20. Adjust it to -40, it is "mute'ish" enough.
Then, PRESS TRIM AGAIN!!!!!!
You will get to previous screen, maybe, setup will be saved.
To be at save side: check TRIM is not lit up;
press: IN1, MON1, check level is about -40, check no another buttons on,
than, press TRIM for 10 sec, you see SAV.


If somehow the setup was [email protected] up.
It happened me when there were shorted buttons at startup.
Can be caused by bad +5V.
It is not the bug of software and can't be corrected.
The microcontroller goes in wrong state.
Guys, PLEASE!!!!! check everything before power up.
I can't take a care on solder blobs, improper soldering and other [email protected]


To solve frozen screen etc.
CHECK EVERYTHING!!!!!!
Than,
DO EXACTLY LIKE HERE:


Turn unit off.
Wait till power supply goes down completely, say, 1 min.

Press and hold TRIM, power up the unit. Wait.
It will show StU (setup). Stop pressing the TRIM.
Nothing to be settled at this stage, setup proc cleans the EEPROM.
After 7 sec seeing the STU, press TRIM again, you get SAV (save) on screen.
You cleaned the EEPROM and trim offsets were set to default.
Check IN1, SPK1 are on, level -40. TRIM is OFF!!!!

Than, to be at safe side, pass on every possible trims.
I.e. press TRIM+IN1 see 0 than press TRIM again;
SAME!!!!
TRIM+IN2, see 0, press TRIM;
TRIM+IN3; see 0, press TRIM;
TRIM+IN4; see 0, press TRIM;
TRIM+SPK1, see 0, press TRIM;  
TRIM+SPK2, see 0, press TRIM;
TRIM+SUB, see 0, press TRIM;
set up ALL!!! 0 offsets for inputs and outputs.

Than, check TRIM is not ON.
If TRIM is ON, turn it off.

Than, press IN1 (pressing IN1 starts the program), SPK1, adjust level for -40,
hold TRIM again 10 sec. It will save initial setup.

Power down the unit, than, power on.

It should show -40, IN1, SPK1.

Then,
press TRIM+MONO, check or set (-6), press TRIM, MONO to get to prev.screen;
press TRIM+DIM, check or se  (-10...-40), press TRIM, DIM;
press TRIM+TBK, check or set (-6...-20), press TRIM, TBK;

check buttons TRIM, DIM, MONO, TB are OFF!!!!!;
check IN1, SPK1, ON; display is -40; press TRIM 10 sec, this will save correct setup.

Power down, wait, power up, check IN1, SPK1, -40, press IN1 to start the prog,
check everything works fine.....DONE!

Again, before setup: check there are no shorts or wrong solder joints etc.
Worst case, if you somehow lucky [email protected] up the micro-controller,
I can send new one at self cost.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: dtonthept on September 23, 2010, 10:15:44 PM
Awesome thanks Igor! I'm back at home now but will check this out in the studio tomorrow. And yes - sound quality simply stunning - I'm so happy with the performance of the CRM.

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bonnie on September 24, 2010, 07:08:15 PM
Hey Igor.
Nice kit. A mate of mine has ordered one, and I've whipped up a controller for it. I realise the kit comes with the controller pcb, but we have a spare lawo board waiting for a purpose. Means we dont need to get a front panel made for it.

Anyway, I'm in the middle of programming the PIC, and I was just wanting to know the pinout/wiring of the A6833. I.e. what port to what relay.
Either that or a schemo with the control side of the relays to the A6833 shown.

Cheers,
Andrew
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moses on September 25, 2010, 08:23:56 PM
Hey Bonnie!!

Welcome to the forum!!

Just to clarify, I am the guy who ordered the CRM that Bonnie wants to modify. As it goes, we don't feel that the controller offers all the options we want (no mute being the biggie, but we also want fixed 'preset' volume levels) which is why Bonnie has spent time and effort writing code (some straight up in hex - respect!) for this!

Im looking forward to building 'the other half' of this...

Mo
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on September 26, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
Hey guys, sorry, all mods - at your rescue only.
In case of whatever, contact me by mail or skype, will help if this not taking too many time.
A6833 will be discontinued very soon, not rec'd for new designs.
I did not wrote the code for CRM, mine are:
idea, algorytm, schematic, PCB layout, front design and tech implementation....
PIC programming for this project was done by my friend at 2005.
He left Israel few years ago, and now I working with another programmer.
Thus: no code, no code updates, no changes.

"fixed 'preset' volume levels" are already here, btw, you can easy store them.
-50 db is "mute" enough.

I still have about 8 CRM PCB sets. The support will be for about a year,
anyway, I want to clean the stock and forget this project. Same as PGA2500 pre',
it is not DIY-friendly.

From the other side, I did design for very similar CRM project, active, without digital control
and quite more DIY-able.

New CRM has: 4 inputs (1 of 4), 3 outputs (can be 1 of 3 or paralelled),
mono, mute (dim), AND great A/B option.
It can be used as simple mastering console with 2 inserts or CRM
with A/B test compatibility.
Talkback can be easy added here.
It is not hi-end as relay-based, passive CRM, but quite more DIY-friendly,
and, trust me, better than monitor section of $$L G4000 (G6000).

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on September 30, 2010, 10:36:23 AM
Hi Igor,
     Are these CRM sets that you have left complete kits with all parts needed (excluding case) to build the unit?  I am about to place and order with purusha for a bunch of cases and if you have kits left I will order a case for the CRM as well, thanks in advance.

Chris
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on October 07, 2010, 08:40:00 AM
Bump....Does anyone know if Igor has anymore full CRM kits available?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: funkmuffin on October 07, 2010, 09:19:48 AM
Caprock -- I asked Igor via email last week or so about a full kit, and he responded that the parts are instock.  The price, though, was pretty high, and I think you'd be able to source them locally for less maybe.  Igor also included a BOM in that response, and I started looking things up, but decided to not build this project now, so I didn't get very far.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on October 10, 2010, 02:20:57 PM
Igor,

Need to use some more wires on the VGA connection.

In fact these:

-12V
L-CH +/-/Gnd
R-CH +/-/Gnd

(I like to integrate some meters in my remote)

So the question: do you see any problems for the digital connection between the pic and the relay driver on the audio board?

The audio connections will be buffered, so there should be no backscatter into the main audio (which i will take from the MTR points)

---

and another one: I did read trough the whole thread, but i missed the function of the dip switch except "DIP3 switch SW2 used to equalize speaker's impedance. "

SW1 and SW3 are for ?

EDIT: Stupid me. Impedance for Spk 1 - 3, correct? ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on October 10, 2010, 02:45:19 PM
Last Q for today ;)
Quote
If you want to use brightness controll option, install R20,21 and use photoresistor-
allmost everything will work here... Roff >100k, Ron 0.3...2k.

Cannot find LDRs with Ron 0.2..2k. Easy to find are 4k to 12k Ron.

On the datasheet for the MM5450 (on your shematics its 5540) there is a max. of 4.3V @ 750uA stated. So just decreasing R21 (1k8) using these values? Should i modify R20 (22k) as well?

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on October 11, 2010, 09:22:07 PM
@dtonthept: whazzup? News? :)

@CapRock:
Quote
     Are these CRM sets that you have left complete kits with all parts needed
     (excluding case) to build the unit?  I am about to place and order with purusha
     for a bunch of cases and if you have kits left I will order a case for the CRM as well,
     thanks in advance.
     
Yes, we have parts for kits, enough for 5 CRM's.
The price is same as last 2 years, full kit EUR368, if you bought PCB's, math is EUR368-USD110.
Kit include everything except: box, power supply, IEC socket, VGA cable.
     
Quote
(I like to integrate some meters in my remote)

Good idea. I like it.

IMHO separate cables for audio is best solution.

I'd connect THAT1246 at audio side to
meter feeds and used it's out as unbalanced feed to meter integrated in control.

It is possible to feed meter driver from small 12->+/-15V dc/dc converter.

Quote
Easy to find are 4k to 12k Ron.
OK....It is fun to have a brightness of 7-seg. display adjusted all time to lite at the studio.
But.....not MUST :)
Quote
decreasing R21 (1k8)
Leave it as is, the maximum brightness can be easy to see at daylight
which almost never found in normal studio..... IMHO the combination of 4k ROn photo-R and
values shown at schematic will work.

I use r20=8k2, r21=not installed, Photo-R=not installed, and it is enough.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on October 12, 2010, 09:00:06 PM
Good idea. I like it.

IMHO separate cables for audio is best solution.

I'd connect THAT1246 at audio side to
meter feeds and used it's out as unbalanced feed to meter integrated in control.

It is possible to feed meter driver from small 12->+/-15V dc/dc converter.

THAT1246 ... isnt that overkill? We dont need sonic capabilities for a meter feed, or do we for some other reasons?

I was thinking just to add non-inverting buffers to avoid getting noise or other stuff from the control box/cable back into the audio part. Like to keep the one wire solution. Do i miss something?

In fact two build JLM 40vuppm led meters sitting on my desk waiting to jump into my control box  ;D

Quote
OK....It is fun to have a brightness of 7-seg. display adjusted all time to lite at the studio.
But.....not MUST :)

Thanks. Well, like you said .. its not a must ... but fun.  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on October 14, 2010, 08:23:55 PM
Hey Igor,
Payment Sent For 1 CRM full kit.  Let me know if you need any other info besides what I sent in the paypal notes section.  How long till you do another shipping? thanks...Chris
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on October 17, 2010, 01:05:36 PM
Hi Igor,
Payement sent for 3 CRM full kit...Everything is ok? do you need further informations?
regards

choko
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: juniorhifikit on October 17, 2010, 02:04:45 PM
From the other side, I did design for very similar CRM project, active, without digital control
and quite more DIY-able.

New CRM has: 4 inputs (1 of 4), 3 outputs (can be 1 of 3 or paralelled),
mono, mute (dim), AND great A/B option.
It can be used as simple mastering console with 2 inserts or CRM
with A/B test compatibility.
Talkback can be easy added here.
It is not hi-end as relay-based, passive CRM, but quite more DIY-friendly,
and, trust me, better than monitor section of $$L G4000 (G6000).

Hey Igor,

On this new CRM design would it be possible to link 3 boards together for a surround controller?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on October 17, 2010, 02:27:36 PM
Hi, I think, you will receive the kits within 3 weeks, depending on post office speed :)
2 CRM kits were shipped last week, we have some orders to be shipped now...
Address..everything correct...cool than!

Quote
On this new CRM design would it be possible to link 3 boards together for a surround controller?

Hmmmm....... The previous version is surround-friendly, just parallel 3 audio board's controls.... :)
For new version, if you can find 5 or 6 decks 24(21)-pos. switch, yes, it is possible.
The rest is parallel selector's relays, mono, dim...Yes, possible, after some thinking :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on October 17, 2010, 05:34:48 PM
Hi igor,
    I just ordered 1 CRM kit from you.  Is it the passive relay based kit or the new version kit?  I was hoping to have the passive relay kit.  The only reason I am asking is because I ordered the case for it from TAT and I would like to know if the new version will work with his case?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on October 17, 2010, 05:39:23 PM
Old, passive, proved and built many times, Christmas edition.
When the new once will be available, there will be kinda announce.
I have to be more specific, anyway :)
This make laugh hard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8104PLAI_N0
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on October 17, 2010, 07:15:17 PM
Verrrry nice avatarrrr you have now :)

Pls, if you find time, check my post on one page before, regarding the buffering for the meters

Thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mik on October 22, 2010, 12:39:31 PM
Hi Igor, I Have 7 segment Led display
http://uk.farnell.com/avago-technologies/5082-7651/led-display-0-43-he-red/dp/1175582?_requestid=354031

they Has 2 pin more then the holes on the PCB,
do I have to cut those 2 ?

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on October 24, 2010, 03:20:45 PM
What have people been using for their knobs? I really like the white one Igor used on page one, but I haven't had any luck finding something similar - everything has indicator marks of some kind. I've had mine finished for more than a year and I still haven't found anything.

Thanks, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on October 24, 2010, 04:50:50 PM
Alps has a nice knob in black. White i dont know.
(http://www.conrad.at/medias/global/ce/7000_7999/7100/7150/7157/715751_BB_00_FB.EPS_250.jpg)


EDIT: Fits, but doesnt clamp too well to the encoder (well its also alps, so how could i suggest a good fit  ::) ) and looks a little bit cheap .. so not the perfect solution
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on October 24, 2010, 05:10:09 PM
Hi Tomcat, thanx, I love this avatarrrrr :)

Quote
THAT1246 ... isnt that overkill? We dont need sonic capabilities for a meter feed, or do we for some other reasons?

Quote
I was thinking just to add non-inverting buffers to avoid getting noise or other stuff from the control box/cable back into the audio part. Like to keep the one wire solution. Do i miss something?

I usually have INA137/THAT line receivers in-stock...instead of inventing balanced line receiver
with op-amp and some parts across it, less time and money. One INA2137 can do perfect job here.
Put it on small breadboard in audio box, supply can be feed from dc/dc converter like:
http://il.farnell.com/xp-power/ia1215s/converter-dc-dc-1w-15v/dp/8727597

It will be better IMHO to feed "buffered" audio by separate cables to controller.  
VGA cable has no enough lines to do it.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: DAN_000 on November 06, 2010, 12:41:44 PM
Hi Igor,  What is  U20 ?  Everything works like expected, but everytime I boot I see U20 on screen for a sec. 

Thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 06, 2010, 12:55:08 PM
Great news!!!!
Hi Igor,  What is  U20 ?  Everything works like expected, but everytime I boot I see U20 on screen for a sec. 

Thanks!
Software version, V2.00
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 08, 2010, 04:55:48 PM
Finished the build today after a looong wait for the red LEDs.

What should i say ... click click click ... its so cooool  ;D


Thanks a lot Igor!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 08, 2010, 05:01:17 PM
HURRAYYYY!!!!!
How's the sound, BTW?
:)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 08, 2010, 05:15:57 PM
Well, was just bench / function testing. Need to build a new case for my remote/meters idea.

Im still unsure if i should use the 1U case i have + the Tascam DB25 cables (which i dont have right now) or build a 2U version with XLRs on the back. I dont like these adapter cables so much.

P.S. Was an easy build. The only thing which didnt happen to me since a long time ... i reversed two electrolytics. The bug was easy to find: bang .. smoke  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 08, 2010, 05:36:50 PM
lol
Wash the PCB after capacitor's blown, if they put some electrolyte on pcb, it can contaminate.
I hate reversed electrolitycs-it smells soooo bad!

Try Mogami 8 snakes (thin, nice, cool cable).
I saw many DB25's on some mastering units, so.....hmmm...dunno :)
Many people use them, and it become standard.
Anyway, I hate DB-25's too.
My personal taste goes to ELCO 56 pin for case like 4 stereo unit's insert cable (K-1).
But this is not DIY frendly thing (soldering=real hardcore).
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on November 09, 2010, 02:32:09 PM
Hey Igor,

Disaster strikes!

I powered up my monitor controller today (its been working fine for a year or more), and hear one click from the relays, then nothing.

Button LEDs are dead, 7 segment displays are dead, and when I turn the volume control, no clicks from the relays.

I tried turning it off, waiting, and then powering on with trim held down following your instructions on the last page.  Again - nothing...

The interesting thing is, when powered on, the unit does pass audio (at 0dB), there's no way to control the gain though.

Any idea what might be the problem?  Is the microcontroller dead?

EDIT - Panic over! 

After a bit of prodding about inside I found one of the leads on the main board going to my DIY veroboard control board had come loose.  Should be a simple job to fix...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 09, 2010, 02:49:59 PM
Igor,

The 3 data lines between the remote and mainboard (Data_in, Clock, Strobe) ... necessary to use shielded wire per line or do you think it will work if i take 2 twisted pairs with common shield for Clock&Strobe or another combination.

Im still trying to figure out a way to just use one cable to my remote (+ my add on for the vu/ppms). A HDMI cable could possibly work, there i have 4 twisted pairs with shield/pair + a couple of extra wires for power.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 09, 2010, 05:51:26 PM
Quote
After a bit of prodding about inside I found one of the leads on the main board going to my DIY veroboard control board had come loose.  Should be a simple job to fix...
Duh. It was adrenaline'ish!

Quote
The 3 data lines between the remote and mainboard (Data_in, Clock, Strobe) ... necessary to use shielded wire per line or do you think it will work if i take 2 twisted pairs with common shield for Clock&Strobe or another combination.
Depending on cable length. I think it is OK to go with simple ribbon computer cable for up to several meters,
just hook it like strobe-gnd-clock-gnd-data-gnd.

Im still trying to figure out a way to just use one cable to my remote (+ my add on for the vu/ppms). A HDMI cable could possibly work, there i have 4 twisted pairs with shield/pair + a couple of extra wires for power.

Why not use 2xVGA's?
:)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 10, 2010, 09:19:50 AM
2x VGA = 2 cables ;)

I found a cable with 5x Coax and 5x extra wires. This will do the trick ... hopefully  :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gandhalf3 on November 11, 2010, 03:09:34 PM
hello
i'v got a problem. I'v just finished to populate the PCBs, and when i fire up, i can hear a Click and few pushbutton are lighted, but the Digit are non lighted, and when I turn the Alps encoder, nothing happens, no clicks. Same things if I push a button, nothing happend, the dark one stay dark, and the lighted ones stay lighted.

Where is the probleme ?

please help me.
Thanks a lot best regards.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gandhalf3 on November 11, 2010, 05:11:36 PM
another observation, the IC4 onb the control Card become really hot after jus few seconds of turning on.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 11, 2010, 05:41:22 PM
Check your soldering. The ic shouldnt get hot. Measure if 5V is ok.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gandhalf3 on November 12, 2010, 05:45:32 AM
hello again, thanks for the answer.

I checked the soldering, but i dont see anything special, but i measure just something around 3V instead of 5.  the electrolytics Condo are really hot too in few seconds. Maybe IC4 is dead ?

I'll check the solderings again. ???

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 12, 2010, 06:11:25 AM
Maybe you did the same like me and solderd the electrolytics wrong way in ;)

Pull the semis and try again. Measure the power without semis and check the electrolytics. Are we talking about the controller board or the main board?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gandhalf3 on November 12, 2010, 07:32:00 AM
I'm talking about the controller board. the elecrolytics are in the same direction as in this schema http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/contr_btm.gif (http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/contr_btm.gif).

Maybe the A6833 is in the wrong way.

Could it be dangerous for it or for other componenent ?

I'll check this
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 12, 2010, 08:11:09 AM
On the Socket for the A6xx you see one corner different/keyed. If you soldered the socket wrong way ... well you have a problem. Otherwise you need a lot of brutal force to insert the chip in a different way then keyed. And yes i think it will destroy the chip if you insert it wrong way.

What means "maybe the a6833 is the wrong way"?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on November 12, 2010, 08:54:28 AM

Hi Igor,

I was a little bit premature in saying that I had fixed my monitor controller :(

I thought the issue was going to be fixed when I resoldered a loose wire going to the trim switch.

Unfortunately after resoldering the wire to the switch, nothing on the control board works.  It looks like this wire wasn't the problem.

I have 12V going into the control board, and 5V after the rectifier so power isn't a problem 

I have removed all connections to the trim switch altogether just in case it is bad in some way, but I don't see why this would cause a problem anyway.

Can you suggest anything to try next?  I must admit, the schematic isn't helping me much because it's all to do with digital contro - not my speciality! 

Do you think it's possible that the CRM chip is fried?  I get the same result with or without the CRM chip in place when I turn the power on...

Cheers

Rob





Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gandhalf3 on November 12, 2010, 10:08:44 AM
Finally He is Alive.


The a6833 was in inserted in the wrong way, maybe with a little brutal force.
thanks for your answers Tom, and thanks igor for this wonderfull Kit.

here is it : (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4014/5169007071_a0d221b3e0.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BJk7z7OB1E
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 12, 2010, 11:38:33 AM
Lucky bastard ;) Didnt think that the chip will survive this treatment  :)


Btw. if anybody needs just the remote control case like you see in the picture above, i will sell mine soon.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 14, 2010, 08:09:14 PM
Quote
I was a little bit premature in saying that I had fixed my monitor controller Sad

I thought the issue was going to be fixed when I resoldered a loose wire going to the trim switch.

Unfortunately after resoldering the wire to the switch, nothing on the control board works.  It looks like this wire wasn't the problem.

I have 12V going into the control board, and 5V after the rectifier so power isn't a problem

I have removed all connections to the trim switch altogether just in case it is bad in some way, but I don't see why this would cause a problem anyway.

Can you suggest anything to try next?  I must admit, the schematic isn't helping me much because it's all to do with digital contro - not my speciality!

Do you think it's possible that the CRM chip is fried?  I get the same result with or without the CRM chip in place when I turn the power on...

Hi Rob, please check if any keyboard inputs are not connected.
I.e. pins 15....22 are on +5V thru pull-up resistors,
and there are pulses at pins 2...6.

Check SPI going to A6833, 8,9,10 of microcontroller - if lines are not shorted.
Check without 74AC125 in case of whatever.

Maybe, microcontroller chip gone, maybe, something is shorted at control board.
No prob, I have one spare control board, and can send it for free with
pre-prog'd chip at chip self cost + shipping. Feel free to mail/PM.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on November 15, 2010, 05:30:17 PM

Thanks for replying Igor.  I need to ask a couple of beginner questions  :-[

Please can you just explain quickly :

Quote
please check if any keyboard inputs are not connected.
I.e. pins 15....22 are on +5V thru pull-up resistors

So I'm looking for +5V in these places (red dots)?

(http://www.robgould.plus.com/crm.JPG)

Quote
and there are pulses at pins 2...6.

Never done this before - so I'm looking on a scope for regular 5V square wave pulses at a certain frequency?


Quote
Check SPI going to A6833, 8,9,10 of microcontroller - if lines are not shorted.
Check without 74AC125 in case of whatever.

Not a problem...

Quote
No prob, I have one spare control board, and can send it for free with
pre-prog'd chip at chip self cost + shipping. Feel free to mail/PM.

This could come in really useful if I can't find the problem using my limited troubleshooting skills ;)  I'm away with work for a few days so it'll take me a while to get to this, but please keep the spare parts for me.

Cheers,

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on November 21, 2010, 05:47:22 PM


I'm back at home now and had a go at this testing.

I can see pulses of some kind on pin 2 of the controller chip, but they are not square waves.  I'll try and get a pic.

Pin 6 doesn't seem to be doing anything.

Can you have a look at my questions in the post above?  Having had a go at this, it's obvious I have got the wrong idea.  There isn't 5V on any of pins 15 - 22 so I'm guessing there should not be?

Cheers,

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on November 21, 2010, 09:15:06 PM
everyone seems to be out of the relay you used original the C93418
I believe these would work but im double checking
the C93402
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PB1125-ND (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=PB1125-ND)
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on November 22, 2010, 06:34:39 AM
Yes these will work
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 22, 2010, 04:04:45 PM
Rob:
Seems uP is dead.
Talk to me, shipping address etc, will put control PCB inside, 'cause there is one spare (without audio part).
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on November 23, 2010, 12:29:36 PM
Any reason i shouldn't use this for the encoder?
i dont want to pay a 20$ to get the unit from newark/farnel
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=102-1762-ND
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 23, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
Should work. Some encoder types using different A/B pin arrangement.
Worst case, pins 1 and 3 can be swapped if turning enc CW the level goes down.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on November 24, 2010, 06:04:01 AM
Hi igor,

I didn't receive my 3crm full kits... i paid it the 17th october... is it normal??
what's append?
regards

choko
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 24, 2010, 01:10:22 PM
No, it isn't normal. I remember, we sent 3 kits about month ago.
Please PM or mail me your shipping address, will do best to fix it.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on November 24, 2010, 01:24:19 PM
You scare me !!!...

Franck rivoire
12rue fabien roussel
69520 Grigny
France

my mail : [email protected]
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 28, 2010, 07:22:35 AM
PM'd, mailed
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on November 28, 2010, 02:56:45 PM

Hey Igor,

I sent you a couple of emails about the spare CRM chip.  Did you get them?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 29, 2010, 06:24:47 PM
Yes, was in total run, chips sent today, mailed tracking nr,
just found some time now to go thru e-mails etc.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on November 30, 2010, 01:09:03 PM
Tomcat,
     Are you still looking to sell your desktop controller case?  If so PM me with where you are located and how much you think you want for it, thanks
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on December 06, 2010, 11:04:59 AM

hi Igor,

I received the chips this morning so thank you.  They did not solve my problem, but I have managed to find out what was the matter.

I could see that there was no 5V after C8, so I presumed that C8 had somehow died.  However, when I removed C8 from the board, I saw that the 5V rail going to it was broken.  I have soldered a small wire between the 5V side of the V Reg and the anode of C8 and now the board works again. 

Before I contacted you, I saw that there was +5V after the voltage regulator so therefore assumed the whole power section was OK.  Live and learn eh...

One more thing - I accidentally lifted the trace going to the cathode of the Dim LED.  I could see that the trace went to one side of R11, so I just took that cable going to the LED anode and soldered it directly to the correct side of R11.

Now, I get 11.4V over the Dim LED.  All the others are around 1.8V when they're lit.  Obviously 11.4V will have blown the Dim LED, but why is the voltage so high?  All the circuit does is 12V > LED > R11 and I have bypassed one trace.  R11 still checks out as 1.2k ohm.  I can't see any shorts anywhere on the board...

Any idea what the problem could be?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 07, 2010, 12:25:14 PM
Hi Rob, good news. Hope it works now, let's fix the led issue.

Cathode of DIM led goes to R9, not 11. R11 goes to cathode (-) of TRIM led.
If the led gone, and does not conducts (interestingly, FUBAR'ed zeners usually shows short,
but led's infinity), there's no appropriate voltage drop (1.8V) on blown led.
Just check everything again, replace led...etc)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on December 07, 2010, 04:33:44 PM
Hi Rob, good news. Hope it works now, let's fix the led issue.

Cathode of DIM led goes to R9, not 11. R11 goes to cathode (-) of TRIM led.
If the led gone, and does not conducts (interestingly, FUBAR'ed zeners usually shows short,
but led's infinity), there's no appropriate voltage drop (1.8V) on blown led.
Just check everything again, replace led...etc)

Sorry - it is Trim that has gone.  Dim is working fine.   Slight confusion on my part ::) ;D

I'll try replacing the LED and seeing what happens...

By the way - you've got mail ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 10, 2010, 06:58:49 PM
Rob, any updates?
;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on December 12, 2010, 06:06:59 AM

I haven't had a chance to look at this yet, and I'm unsure whether I will.

You remember I laid out the front panel controls on veroboard?  Well getting is all apart is a real pain and for the Trim LED, I'm not sure it is worth it.  I will get round to it one day, but perhaps not today  :D

I'll put your CRM chips back in the post to you this week though.

Cheers

Rob
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on December 25, 2010, 03:18:33 AM
That freakin allergo chip is hard to get. Any ideas..... subs?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 02, 2011, 03:51:52 PM
So I'm just getting at building these, much later than everyone else!  I just have a quick question regarding the 3 LED displays.  There's more pins than there is holes in the PCB, am I supposed to cut off the legs?  Feels wrong to me...

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 02, 2011, 05:24:01 PM
So I'm just getting at building these, much later than everyone else!  I just have a quick question regarding the 3 LED displays.  There's more pins than there is holes in the PCB, am I supposed to cut off the legs?  Feels wrong to me...

Thanks!
Sig

That doesn't sound right.  Did you get the kit, or source the components yourself?

I replaced the green LED displays with red ones from Farnell and they fitted OK as I recall.  It's casting my mind back quite a while now, but the only question I had to ask was whether the boards fitted common anode or common cathode displays...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: mik on January 02, 2011, 05:52:16 PM
I ended my CMR few day ago, every works fine.. great project.. and yes I have cut the surpus pin on the leds..

M.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 02, 2011, 07:04:52 PM
Full kit from Igor, although some stuff is missing...

But, they're the red LED displays, and they have 6 legs on one side, and 5 legs on the other side.  On the PCB, there is only 3 holes on one side and 6 holes on the other.  The 6 holes line up, and the LED display would be oriented correctly (with the dot LED on the bottom left and right sides), but the pins on the one side gotta go.  There's no other way to make em fit.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on January 02, 2011, 08:18:39 PM
Cut them. Dont know which red ones you have but the ones igor was refereing some time ago have a few unused extra pins which you can cut.

P.S. datasheets are available on the web for comparsion ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 02, 2011, 09:24:37 PM
Cool, they're cut.

I'm unclear about these resistor networks - RN1, RN2, RN3.  Do I just pull 4.7 resistors through, solder on the control board side, and then solder each resistor together on the underside?

And I wanted to add this Photoresistor.  Anyone do it?  Where would I get it?

Thanks guys,
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 02, 2011, 10:02:07 PM
Also need to find that reset switch, anyone know where to get those?

Thanks!!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on January 03, 2011, 06:11:41 AM
Resistors: Yes, solder them standing, bend one wire so it crosses all other wires, solder, cut. Pin 1 is common for all resistors, no resistor into this hole!

Reset switch: same as on/off/on powercycle. Not necessary if you dont do pic programming (info from igor)

Photoresistor: look up this thread, had a discussion with igor about it. Couldnt find a proper value so im using a resistor.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 03, 2011, 09:09:22 AM
Do I jumper anything on the reset switch if I'm not using it?  Or just leave it?

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 03, 2011, 11:48:34 AM
Also on the Photo resistor - jumper it?  Igor also said to leave one of the resistors out, does this still mean to jumper it?  I can't see that leaving it out and doing nothing will complete the circuit and allow this thing to work...

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 03, 2011, 01:19:42 PM
Also on the Photo resistor - jumper it?  Igor also said to leave one of the resistors out, does this still mean to jumper it?  I can't see that leaving it out and doing nothing will complete the circuit and allow this thing to work...

Thanks!
Sig

I left the reset switch out altogether - it's not necessary to jumper the switch location for normal operation.

Also there's some discussion earlier in the thread about the best value for the photoresistor.  I don't think you should use a jumper, but I can't remember the value I used I'm afraid.

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on January 03, 2011, 03:12:19 PM
If you like to get a permanent reset .. lets go and jumper it  ;D

No seriously, no jumper for reset button and no for photoresistor. There is another resistor which you have to change to another value if you use a photoresistor. Like said before, everything you can find if you read some pages back  ::)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 03, 2011, 05:08:23 PM
Awesome, ya I have the info for R20, I just didn't know about leaving the other pads for the reset and photo resistor open like that, felt weird to leave components out and not jumper, as if the circuit wouldn't be complete.

As far as PSU's go, I know some were mentioned a while back too, but I wondered if anything in the US/Canada was available through Mouser or Digikey.  Any luck over here?

Thanks guys!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on January 03, 2011, 06:06:59 PM
http://ca.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=pqZ7J9Gt/moIRZwus6T4eg==

Mouser sells that Mean Well model you mentioned earlier in this thread Rob, this link is for the 42W version, which I think will work fine.  

http://ca.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=S-25-12virtualkey63430000virtualkey709-S25-12 - 25 watt version.

Better to go for the 42W?  Or is the 25W just fine?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 03, 2011, 07:41:37 PM
Tomcat, thanx a lot for help.
I had a little New Year vacations and back here.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 04, 2011, 05:53:53 AM
http://ca.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=pqZ7J9Gt/moIRZwus6T4eg==

Mouser sells that Mean Well model you mentioned earlier in this thread Rob, this link is for the 42W version, which I think will work fine.  

http://ca.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=S-25-12virtualkey63430000virtualkey709-S25-12 - 25 watt version.

Better to go for the 42W?  Or is the 25W just fine?

Mine's running fine with a 25W supply...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 04, 2011, 07:23:05 AM
12V, 2A switching mode power supply is enough.
I organized some nice new power supply's for cheap from local surplus store.
They will be added to CRM kits without charge.
Rob: is everything fixed and fine now with your CRM?
Happy New 2011!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 04, 2011, 07:35:03 AM
Rob: is everything fixed and fine now with your CRM?
Happy New 2011!

Happy New Year Igor :)

Yes - everything is fine with my CRM now with the exception of the Trim LED which I am not too bothered about fixing - too much like hard work  ;D. 

UI'm afraid I have not posted the spare CRM chips back to you - Christmas got in the way...  I will send them this week definitely.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 04, 2011, 09:12:09 AM
OK, NP :)
TRIM led: just be sure you don't save somehow setup with TRIM led ON, it can cause some mess.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on January 07, 2011, 12:56:28 PM
After a year of sitting around on this one I finally got a start last night. Woke up early before work to finish up. Ill test when I receive the chips and psu.
(http://srichard.net/prodigy/crm/1.jpg)
(http://srichard.net/prodigy/crm/2.jpg)
(http://srichard.net/prodigy/crm/3.jpg)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on January 07, 2011, 01:48:38 PM
What LDR did you use?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on January 07, 2011, 02:07:15 PM
I picked up this one as per Igors earlier sugestion, but it is as yet untested.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=PDV-P9007-ND&x=0&y=0 (http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=PDV-P9007-ND&x=0&y=0)
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on January 07, 2011, 02:08:43 PM
A small bit of advice; solder in the sockets on the controller after the displays.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on January 07, 2011, 07:40:44 PM
A small bit of advice; solder in the sockets on the controller after the displays.

And how do you solder the controller socket when the leds block the solder side pins?

First sockets, then leds. If you have a piece of plastic in your way (from the socket) cut it off. Easy to do that.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on January 07, 2011, 08:36:49 PM
In that case you would be cutting off the socket itself.
Here is a pic of how one side interacts with the other.
(http://srichard.net/prodigy/crm/display%20closeup.png)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 07, 2011, 08:00:00 AM
WOA!!!!! Old green PCB's!!!! It means, you bought them a year ago at least!
Nice work, looking forward to hear "It works!"

Again, just to remind - already have this memo in documentation folder/archive, but:

Check if there's no short between pin 4 and gnd inside VGA cable!!!
Some cables has pin4 shorted to ground inside. Pins 4,14,15 are used for +12 from audio
unit to controller.
/I had only one cable with pin4 to gnd for last 3 years, but....in case of whatever!/

(had a mail from one guy who assembled the kit few days ago and had this issue with VGA cable).
Some of VGA cables have this short, some-not, just check before, and, if shorted, just cut pin 4 on VGA cable
or desolder it on PCB and cut.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zenmastering on February 09, 2011, 02:13:49 AM
I can confirm that the photocell sold by DigiKey (p/n PDV-P8001-ND) works just fine with the stock resistor values and gives a useful range of brightness control.

My CRM is almost done. I'm hunting down a problem where the encoder will only count up and not down. It happens intermittently, so it's a little maddening to trace it. There are pulses on both the A & B encoder outputs while this problem is occuring (as well as pulses at both PIC encoder inputs).

Best Regards,

Graemme
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 09, 2011, 10:15:26 AM
If quadrature encoder's pulses on pins 33, 34 of microcontroller are OK -  yes, in your case, than,
maybe, there's no enough voltage for changing the uP port's state...
Try to change R13, R14 to 1k, and see what happens.
R12, R15 should be in range (1......4.7k). I use 1/8W 4k99 for R12, 13, 14, 15 for 2 years -
(bought a box of 2000 for $1 on local surplus store), and never had this issue with about 50 microcontrollers-
we using same controller in our bigger version commercial product.
One guy, who assembled the kit, reported this prob and the fix was using lower value resistors.
BTW, his microcontroller is from same batch as yours.....
Let us know if the resistors were the issue.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zenmastering on February 10, 2011, 02:19:26 AM
Hi Igor,

Thanks for the very quick and clear suggestion. I changed R12 and R14 to 1K and so far (10 power up/down cycles) the encoder and general operation are flawless. I'll continue to test it tomorrow, but I think this has fixed the encoder issue!

Your help is much appreciated!

Graemme
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 10, 2011, 06:43:33 AM
GREAT!!! Tell us about sound when connected to speakers.

Encoder issue:
That's was strange, never had this before.
I bought 100 microcontrollers from local Microchip distributer, at least 10 were OK,
this is the second PIC from from this batch which has same issue with encoder port.
OK... We have a fix, in case of whatever :)

EDIT: I "burned-in" another 18 microcontrollers and tested in circuit.
One had same issue as yours. Will check every microcontroller before sending.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zenmastering on February 12, 2011, 03:27:32 AM
Hi Igor,

The sound? What sound? It has so little sound of it's own that I love it...and I'm used to very high-end monitoring here (EMM Labs DAC, Bel Canto amps and Revel monitors).

This is just great...Thanks Igor!

Now having said that, I still have one problem with the operation: Even if I follow Igor's instructions exactly, with respect to using the TRIM button to store a default setup, the unit will power up in some odd state and be unresponsive until I press another input switch. It's almost like the unit 'forgets' the setup that I've loaded and instead loads this incorrect data that 'freezes' the unit until I switch inputs.

Any thoughts?


Graemme

p.s. I've now run about 30 power up/down cycles and the encoder problem is definitely fixed.

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 12, 2011, 06:40:32 PM
Please pass setup procedure (to reset the microcontroller):
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30914.msg510069#msg510069
and store trims and initial state.

BTW, we replaced today control room section in DB for 3 of these kits, bit adapted to 5.1.

What can I say.... 6000G control room section sucks, now the sound is like somebody removed a blanket from the loudspeakers.
Will post some pics soon.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 12, 2011, 08:13:08 PM
Yep.... Check here:
http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=43120.0

Some nice porn - photos are in photo album:
http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/NEW_CRM_DB/
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on February 12, 2011, 11:42:08 PM
Nice Igor!

The button on the right lower side "Sub" is for the subwoofer switch here?

Possible to mod your normal CRM for 3-speaker + Sub like this? Would love to scrap Talkback for this feature ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 13, 2011, 08:35:41 AM
Ohho.... I cannot give a support each time you change or modify something, but can post
all possible features of controller chip and full table of A6833 outputs.

"Custom mods" support is [email protected] time consumer;
Please mind, every time you modify something, you do it on your own rescue.

Well... if there is interest, have to find some time and write a loooooong post about all these features :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 18, 2011, 11:43:54 AM
Hey guys,

Just got one of Igor's PSU's for the CRM project here.  I'm unsure of how to hook this up to mains.  One side has 4 pins, the other has 2 and a ground on the edge of the PCB.  I'm assuming I use the side with 2 pins, and 1 is hot and one is neutral, with IEC ground to the PCB?

(http://www.siegfriedmeier.com/electronics/Igor%20PSU.jpg)

Any info would be greatly appreciated, I'd like to get this thing done.

Thanks,
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 18, 2011, 07:54:23 PM
Anyone?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 21, 2011, 01:21:15 AM
Did anyone get one of these PSU's or am I the only one...?

If there's a way I can test this, someone please let me know.  I've never played around with these computer switching type PSU's so I have no clue...

Thanks!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on February 21, 2011, 12:35:01 PM
I've been using my monitor controller for about 2 weeks now. Unfortunately this weekend a strange thing happened. While switching through the inputs I must now pres the second button fallowed by the 3rd and the second again in order to select the second input. Until I run press the buttions in that order the interface freezes. Should I go through the reset procedure or look elsewhere?
Everything else is working fine. What a great project Igor. I really appreciate being able to make an upgrade of this quality to my studio.
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on February 21, 2011, 06:14:57 PM
Well I went through the reset procedure and no change.
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on February 24, 2011, 05:52:59 PM
Igor?
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 25, 2011, 09:28:43 PM
OK, so it seems my unit is working, but I have no LED's active...

The main LED screen shows stuff, but I'm unsure of how to properly set this thing up.  Are there instructions anywhere?  I have all the stuff that Igor sent me, but there are no instructions on setup, and I've been through this thread a few times...at least I didn't notice anything written here?

I did the "hold trim" on startup thing, and now it just says CUT, no clue what that means or what I'm to do...

Thanks for the help!
Sig
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 25, 2011, 10:10:00 PM
Ok, so the fact that ALL the switch LED's don't work seems to indicate something is F*cked.  When the readout shows the dB level, it doesn't matter if I turn it up or down, the numbers keep going down until it hits zero and then I hear no more relays clacking.

Any clue what's wrong with this thing?  I've been uber careful with the solder joints, and have checked everything to the best of my abilities...

Pin 5 is GND on a standard VGA connector, so I've made sure that pin 4 doesn't ground out with pin 5, as I understand from what Igor has said some cables are wired that way.

http://pinouts.ru/Video/VGA15_pinout.shtml

Thanks guys,
Sig

EDIT - ugh man, cock and balls I put every single switch in backwards...I see now that there's a + on the PCB, and on the back of those switches it also denotes positive and negative, what a pain in the butt it'll be now to pull all those out.  First time using these, consider lesson learned...   :-[
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 26, 2011, 12:41:24 AM
Ok, so that wasn't much fun, but all this did was fix the LED's - the switches do the same thing backwards as forwards.

Still having this weird countdown thing, where the encoder does nothing but count down to 0 when I turn it left or right, til it hits zero and then nothing.

Chip screwed?  What else could be wrong here?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: kibadachi on February 26, 2011, 02:29:10 AM
Siegfried,

check reply #298 from zenmastering and the reply from Igor. Your situation does the opposite but still seems similar ???
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 26, 2011, 09:26:31 AM
Jeeez...same page essentially!  How could I have missed that.  

This sounds strange, I'll try changing R12 and R14 to 1k this morning, see what happens?

Thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 26, 2011, 11:25:50 AM
Ok, I changed the value of those 2 resistors and all it does upon startup now is:

U20 - which I assume means V2.0

and then the encoder reads 0 and the knob does nothing...

I don't think it's the resistors.  I think the chip is screwed, prob didn't work right from the beginning.  Aren't these checked out before they get sent?  All my switches work correctly, relays clack away when each one is pressed etc.  Everything else appears to be working flawlessly...

Igor, been weeks since we've heard from you.  Would love to hear on this issue please.

Thanks,
Sig

EDIT - I put the 4k7 resistors back in and now I still get a zero reading and no encoder action.  I even swapped the input to the PSU since it was "technically" backwards before, still no difference.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 26, 2011, 04:00:27 PM
Man, it's sooooooo close.  As far as I can see it's functioning 99%.  I can save, all switches work, reset setup works, it just never counts up when I turn the dial, everything counts down...

Doesn't feel to me like it's a bad solder joint or anything like that...gotta be something real simple!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Siegfried Meier on February 26, 2011, 04:21:14 PM
Success!!!

I had changed R12 and R14 before as per the top post, but Igor's original thread note said to:

"Try to change R13, R14 to 1k, and see what happens."

So, I did and now it seems to work!!  But, I'm curious as to why it's working in SO many other CRM's, and not here?

Haven't got time today to plug it in and listen, but it appears to function as normal!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zenmastering on March 01, 2011, 03:45:57 AM
Welcome to my dyslexia...although if you look at the schematic it's pretty straightforward.

You were looking for a control-knob?

http://il.farnell.com/jsp/search/altsSubs.jsp?type=acc&sku=1520809

Some don't like this one, however. Poking around a surplus store might be an idea (and fun!)

Cheers,

Graemme
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gec on March 01, 2011, 09:38:12 AM
Hi, I finished my unit but I have a problem only on the right channel: every two steps of the encoder the output is muted...
0,-1:ok  -2,-3:no output  -4,-5:ok  -6,-7:no output...and so on...I already resetted the unit.
I think the problem should be in a relay (I already checked for bad solders on every joint), can you point me to wich relay? Or how can I check it?

thanks, Daniele
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gec on March 02, 2011, 08:16:04 AM
Solved!!!
RA44 was the problem, wrong value (61K9 instead 619).
Daniele
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 05, 2011, 01:15:22 PM
Dat's common thing. We have a huge stock of resistors, it takes about a cube meter space.
Every time we buy resistors, we check them before placing in stock.
Guess what.
About every 200'th package of resistors we receive has K instead of ohms or something like this.

Strongly recommended: even if you ordering the parts from good, proven suppliers like Farnell/Mouser/Digikey,

CHECK EVERY COMPONENT BEFORE INSTALLING TO PCB.

De-soldering resistor from 2-layer, 2Oz PCB isn't a prob, the traces arent't comes off, like in case of China pcb's,
but in case of wrongly placed chip etc, it can be headache unless you have a desoldering station, blower, etc.
I use Hakko808 in this case and highly recommend this toy.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bobine on March 20, 2011, 10:43:01 PM
A6833 obsolete??

Hi... I got my "Christmass Edition" boards last summer. The relays have been out of stock at Mouser for the past five months but are due in April so I began to order my parts today...

Apparently the Allegro A6833SEP-T driver chip is out of stock everywhere and won't be reordered since it is obsolete.

I don't want to order $200 worth of parts if I can't get this key component.

Is there a substitute or replacement?  Or has the passive CRM passed me by?  :-[

b
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on March 21, 2011, 08:07:00 PM
Farnell Germany does have some stock.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zyzlik on March 27, 2011, 07:41:44 AM
Hi! Is it possible to replace MM5540, A6833 by any other? I can't find it in Farnell. Please, help.  :'(
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on April 11, 2011, 04:30:37 AM
Hi,

It's choko the newbee.
I wake up early this morning to finally finish my crm. I was so excited !! The last problem that i meet was the vga cable... evry vga cables that i found had the 4th pin  gnd... so i bought to connectors and 8 wires cable...i make my own vga cable with pin 5,6,7,8,10 straped and nothing to the 11,12,13th pin.
Then i finally powered up my crm, the controler show me V20 and -40, but the in4, out1 and sub led are blocked....I can modifie the level of the trim, save a new trim, but nothing else....
The A6833 and the 7805 are very hot....
Please help me... do you have any suggestions????
I'm very new in this sport... the only thing that i build before is a SSL4000 compressor, it was so easy!!
Sorry for the inconvenience, but i realy need your crm.
Thank you for your answer
regards
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on April 11, 2011, 04:27:51 PM
A6833 orientation is correct? Somebody did the same mistake before a few pages back
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on April 14, 2011, 06:18:51 AM
Hi,

Thank you tomcat, the A6833 orientation was wrong... what a pity!!
Now it work but :

-no led lighted for : in1, IN3, SPK2, Mono, Trim, Dim & TB !!! but the relays click when i switch it on
- SPK the relays click from 0 to -42, then nothing from -43 to -62, then click when cut
-Trim + spk (or in) the relays clicks from -2 to 20, but no click from -3 to -20
-Trim + dim : click to -23, then nothing from -24 to -50

Any ideas??
Perhaps the passive crm was a bit too difficult for me...

thank you for your patience;-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: funball2 on April 14, 2011, 11:29:08 AM
hi choko,



-no led lighted for : in1, IN3, SPK2, Mono, Trim, Dim & TB !!! but the relays click when i switch it on

check the leds are right position

- SPK the relays click from 0 to -42, then nothing from -43 to -62, then click when cut

your input trim is not on zero

-Trim + spk (or in) the relays clicks from -2 to 20, but no click from -3 to -20
-Trim + dim : click to -23, then nothing from -24 to -50

let me see if i find it on my crm ....

Any ideas??
Perhaps the passive crm was a bit too difficult for me...

not

thank you for your patience;-)

your welcome

funball

[/quote]
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: funball2 on April 14, 2011, 12:14:08 PM

hi choko,

Any ideas??
Perhaps the passive crm was a bit too difficult for me...

i think beside the leds  your crm is working :)

cheers

funball

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on April 14, 2011, 04:26:59 PM
Hi funball,

I think i'm about 12 hours to be the hapiest man in my town!!!...
It was the leds!!!... I'd have to be ashamed, but ...
The last challenge is to hear the silence in my studio tomorow... and to plug my Dsub25. I have rme dsub (male & female normaly used for a neve somator), i'm not sure with the way to wired it, but i passed the first step, then i follow the newbie chance...

Thank you funball thank you igor !
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: choko on April 15, 2011, 04:24:31 PM
success !!
first master with my own crm ;-)))

It sounds like hapiness!...

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on May 12, 2011, 09:53:42 PM
've had to put this thing down for a while because I got frustrated. Im back and hoping someone might have time.
I was testing today and this is what I get on startup. None of the relays click.

http://youtu.be/pSFOlQvABhw (http://youtu.be/pSFOlQvABhw)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on May 13, 2011, 11:42:12 AM
Wow, Im really starting to sour on Igor and this whole project.
Can I not get some love here? :'(
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on May 20, 2011, 03:06:34 PM
Lame, just lame!
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on July 18, 2011, 08:11:15 PM
@bluesbaz: sorry, I had really busy time. Now, let's fix it.
Please explain what are the problems with your build. I will try to figure out and write down here.
The CRM is not an easy project, for the very worst case, we'll do same as did with MixBuzz1 troubleshooting with some guys from here:
I need you on skype, with scope, DMM, soldering iron and the patient (CRM),
4 of MixBuzz1's were solved for approx. 1.5 hour each, the CRM is less complicated.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on August 02, 2011, 05:30:39 PM
First, BUMP to all people who had a questions, let's fix your CRM's.

Many people asked about hooking a SUB.

With balanced SUB, with XLR L and R inputs, should be no problem,
just add 1-2 db to compensate level.
Remember, aye, this CRM thing is absolutely passive!!! I don't know how to make it cleaner, but there can be a level drop issue.
This way, press and hold trim than SUB, see 0 at level display, adjust for +2, press TRIM again to exit.
Set initial setup like IN1, SPK1, -50,  no other buttons lit up; save it by pressing TRIM for 10 sec, and the trim value will be stored as well.

If you have an unbalanced SUB with MONO input:

2x (INA137 or INA134 or THAT1246 etc) bal. line receivers; 1xNE5534, some resistors, stuff, and, of course, +/-15V 0.1 A power supply.

See picture attached.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bobine on August 05, 2011, 03:18:38 AM
After a year collecting parts, I switched on the CRM tonight and listened to it clickity clack. Works great, as far as I can tell. For now I'm just using it to switch an input to one of two outputs, so level will mostly stay on zero. But level control works down to the vanishing point.

On the ohmmeter, the resistance between the input and output does not increase exactly stepwise as I reduce the level. Some steps are out of sequence. A couple of drops in level may sound greater than others, but it's hard to tell. It's not a problem for me.

Haven't played with the trim yet. One segment of one LED display is out (lower leg of the "4"). I found the hard-to-find parts through Newark. This project required a lot of thinking about the parts and much care during assembly, but it worked first time for me.

Now I need to get the talkback PCB and integrate that.

Cool project. Makes me want to do something with robots next...

Thanks, Igor!

   
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on August 05, 2011, 10:56:51 AM
Quote
After a year collecting parts, I switched on the CRM tonight and listened to it clickity clack. Works great, as far as I can tell. For now I'm just using it to switch an input to one of two outputs, so level will mostly stay on zero. But level control works down to the vanishing point.

HURRAY!!!!! Happy to hear about this.
BTW, just kidding, was it cheaper than a kt? :)

Quote
On the ohmmeter, the resistance between the input and output does not increase exactly stepwise as I reduce the level.
Well, it shouldn't. You have to feed signal and measure the output.

With 2% resistors (it means, worst case), loaded properly, maximum difference
between the level you see at the screen and measured out is less than 0.3db.

Quote
Some steps are out of sequence. A couple of drops in level may sound greater than others, but it's hard to tell. It's not a problem for me.

To avoid misunderstanding, let's do simple thing.
Connect out of soundcard to CRM input, and CRM's out to input of soundcars, feed 0db, and pass on all level steps.
Depending on how your soundcard loads the CRM out, there can be variation in steps, but we should expect continuity,
like (for xample) -1, -1.1, -2.1, -3,1, -4.2, -5, -6, -7.1, -8, -9.2, etc.
When crm's out properly loaded and actual source out impedance is 0...100R, 
the step tolerances are very low. Both channels btw should match at every step within 0.1 db.

Quote
Haven't played with the trim yet. One segment of one LED display is out (lower leg of the "4"). I found the hard-to-find parts through Newark. This project required a lot of thinking about the parts and much care during assembly, but it worked first time for me.

Maybe, the pin was overheated. Or, check for shorts on PCB.
With good hands, some thinking and patience, yes, CRM supposed to work from first fire-up) Congrats again!

Quote
Now I need to get the talkback PCB and integrate that.

Da ea-sy part, aye!))))
Quote
Cool project. Makes me want to do something with robots next...

Thanx man. Ahmmm.... Talented ROBOSINGER?????
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bobine on August 05, 2011, 02:50:52 PM
Yes, you're right. With a 0db signal input and measuring the output it tracks very well. 0db input returns -0.1 and it remains consistent to -20.

More importantly, variation from left to right is within 0.1 with an occasional 0.2 difference. Only one position (-20) is off by 0.4 left to right.

One odd thing: in the -40s, there begins some drift away by up to 2db, then suddenly at -48, the ouput drops to -54.3 (both channels) and remains out by 6db to the end.

I haven't checked what mono does, but there seems to be an apparent drop in level.

I don't think the kit was available when I got the boards.

A talented ROBOSINGER would solve SO many problems.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on August 09, 2011, 02:51:17 AM
Quote
Yes, you're right. With a 0db signal input and measuring the output it tracks very well. 0db input returns -0.1 and it remains consistent to -20.
Quote
More importantly, variation from left to right is within 0.1 with an occasional 0.2 difference. Only one position (-20) is off by 0.4 left to right.

Exactly as it supposed to be)

Quote
One odd thing: in the -40s, there begins some drift away by up to 2db, then suddenly at -48, the ouput drops to -54.3 (both channels) and remains out by 6db to the end.

Check all the resistor's values.
Or, another thing: I've read about some soundcards have significant error in their meters at low levels.
Maybe, this is due to they use less bits for level measurement so save dsp? Dunno.
Just check everything again, if all resistors are within 2%, should be fine.
My old good over-modyfied Boonton 1120 have about 0.2 db max error, thou.
However, I did some tens of CRM's of 3 kinds (mastering version, regular version, and kit);
with use of 1% resistors and right output load, all they were exactly within specs of my analyzer.

Quote
I haven't checked what mono does, but there seems to be an apparent drop in level.

Press and hold TRIM, than (while holding TRIM) press MONO, release both, set 6, now the offset for mono is +6 dB.
Press TRIM again to exit from TRIM screen.
The summing into MONO is passive, and there is the level drop for 6 db, which is easy to compensate.

Quote
I don't think the kit was available when I got the boards.

Woa, you mean, you have green PCB's? We started to make yellow at 2009. Funny! Took some time to build, aye!  ;D
Quote
A talented ROBOSINGER would solve SO many problems.

After some thinking, no) The studios will have less work.

Cool than, check, fix, and let us know how it sounds!  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on October 01, 2011, 10:48:55 PM
Is anyone else getting some buzz on their signal, possibly from the switching power supply? I have always had lots of noise on the talkback, but I recently discovered I may have some noise on my signal as well. I am running into an unbalanced power amp which may exacerbate the situation. Is it worth exploring a linear supply?

Best,

Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on October 02, 2011, 04:30:54 AM
Is anyone else getting some buzz on their signal, possibly from the switching power supply? I have always had lots of noise on the talkback, but I recently discovered I may have some noise on my signal as well. I am running into an unbalanced power amp which may exacerbate the situation. Is it worth exploring a linear supply?

Best,

Ben

Nope) Looks like a grounds issue.
INA137 x2 (etc) and some parts can easy make your power amp input balanced.
In any case, to be at safe side, check how much AC do you have at out of power supply; up to 2mV is OK.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: yosh on October 14, 2011, 04:01:50 PM
Hi, I've had igor's CRM working in my studio for almost two years now. I love it, but have had a couple issues happening for a while now that I would like to figure out.

When turning the encoder sometimes there are large jumps in level (like -30dB to -10dB) in an instant. This happens when I'm turning the encoder down and the jumps are always up. The display changes with the level, accurately showing the jump in level. Makes me look kinda dumb to clients sometimes. They ask me to turn something down and suddenly it's twice as loud. Heh heh. Oops.

I did try resetting the unit according to the instructions beginning with turning on the unit with the trim button pressed.

Any ideas on why this might be happening?

Thanks!
Josh
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Whoops on October 16, 2011, 05:28:58 PM
Hello,
I'm building my own studio at the moment, and most of the stuff will be high quality DIY.

I really need a Control Room device, but I couldn't buy one of Igor's Kits at the time,
so I would like to ask if there's anyone that has one available for sale, please let me know.

Maybe there's people that bought more than one kit or that have one kit that they will not use anymore.

Thanks
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on October 20, 2011, 03:43:10 PM
Is anyone else getting some buzz on their signal, possibly from the switching power supply? I have always had lots of noise on the talkback, but I recently discovered I may have some noise on my signal as well. I am running into an unbalanced power amp which may exacerbate the situation. Is it worth exploring a linear supply?

Best,

Ben

Nope) Looks like a grounds issue.
INA137 x2 (etc) and some parts can easy make your power amp input balanced.
In any case, to be at safe side, check how much AC do you have at out of power supply; up to 2mV is OK.

I did a little more testing. I can more or less completely eliminate the buzzing by transformer isolating on the way to the speakers. That, however, is not an ideal solution for various, obvious reasons. I measured the AC coming out of my power supply at 50-100mV!!??. Here is a link to the PS: http://www.meanwell.com/search/PLP-30/PLP-30-spec.pdf  (http://www.meanwell.com/search/PLP-30/PLP-30-spec.pdf) It is the PLP-30-12. It has a quoted ripple+noise of 2V p-p. What do you think?

Thanks, Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on October 21, 2011, 08:35:59 PM
Hi, I've had igor's CRM working in my studio for almost two years now. I love it, but have had a couple issues happening for a while now that I would like to figure out.

When turning the encoder sometimes there are large jumps in level (like -30dB to -10dB) in an instant. This happens when I'm turning the encoder down and the jumps are always up. The display changes with the level, accurately showing the jump in level. Makes me look kinda dumb to clients sometimes. They ask me to turn something down and suddenly it's twice as loud. Heh heh. Oops.

I did try resetting the unit according to the instructions beginning with turning on the unit with the trim button pressed.

Any ideas on why this might be happening?

Thanks!
Josh

One of these (or all of them) will work.
1). Replace encoder to a new one;
2). Change R13, R14 to 1k;
3). Change CE1, CE2 (15nF ceramic) to 10...22 nF poly, 5mm, 50...63V
(last one wasn't audiofullery joke :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on October 24, 2011, 01:25:30 PM
Is anyone else getting some buzz on their signal, possibly from the switching power supply? I have always had lots of noise on the talkback, but I recently discovered I may have some noise on my signal as well. I am running into an unbalanced power amp which may exacerbate the situation. Is it worth exploring a linear supply?

Best,

Ben

Nope) Looks like a grounds issue.
INA137 x2 (etc) and some parts can easy make your power amp input balanced.
In any case, to be at safe side, check how much AC do you have at out of power supply; up to 2mV is OK.

I did a little more testing. I can more or less completely eliminate the buzzing by transformer isolating on the way to the speakers. That, however, is not an ideal solution for various, obvious reasons. I measured the AC coming out of my power supply at 50-100mV!!??. Here is a link to the PS: http://www.meanwell.com/search/PLP-30/PLP-30-spec.pdf  (http://www.meanwell.com/search/PLP-30/PLP-30-spec.pdf) It is the PLP-30-12. It has a quoted ripple+noise of 2V p-p. What do you think?

Thanks, Ben

Is it worth investing in a new, lower ripple, psu?

Thanks,

Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 02, 2011, 06:29:31 PM
Igor...? Anybody...?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: yosh on November 02, 2011, 07:59:51 PM


One of these (or all of them) will work.
1). Replace encoder to a new one;
2). Change R13, R14 to 1k;
3). Change CE1, CE2 (15nF ceramic) to 10...22 nF poly, 5mm, 50...63V
(last one wasn't audiofullery joke :)

Replacing the encoder did the trick! Thanks Igor!

Josh
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 07, 2011, 03:25:58 AM
Is anyone else getting some buzz on their signal, possibly from the switching power supply? I have always had lots of noise on the talkback, but I recently discovered I may have some noise on my signal as well. I am running into an unbalanced power amp which may exacerbate the situation. Is it worth exploring a linear supply?

Best,

Ben

Nope) Looks like a grounds issue.
INA137 x2 (etc) and some parts can easy make your power amp input balanced.
In any case, to be at safe side, check how much AC do you have at out of power supply; up to 2mV is OK.

I did a little more testing. I can more or less completely eliminate the buzzing by transformer isolating on the way to the speakers. That, however, is not an ideal solution for various, obvious reasons. I measured the AC coming out of my power supply at 50-100mV!!??. Here is a link to the PS: http://www.meanwell.com/search/PLP-30/PLP-30-spec.pdf  (http://www.meanwell.com/search/PLP-30/PLP-30-spec.pdf) It is the PLP-30-12. It has a quoted ripple+noise of 2V p-p. What do you think?

Thanks, Ben

Is it worth investing in a new, lower ripple, psu?

Thanks,

Ben

I completely misunderstanding:
"I can more or less completely eliminate the buzzing by transformer isolating on the way to the speakers. "
You use switch mode PS for CRM, right? It does not adding hum like power trafo. Strange.
The CRM is completely passive and the effect of power supply is negligible, it used ONLY for powering the relay coils and isolated
from talkback combiner by use of dc/dc converter.
In any case, take 12V STABILIZED power supply and check. I think the issue is ground loop. However, there are many variants :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 07, 2011, 03:26:49 AM


One of these (or all of them) will work.
1). Replace encoder to a new one;
2). Change R13, R14 to 1k;
3). Change CE1, CE2 (15nF ceramic) to 10...22 nF poly, 5mm, 50...63V
(last one wasn't audiofullery joke :)

Replacing the encoder did the trick! Thanks Igor!

Josh

See, black magic worked! Enjoy :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bobine on November 14, 2011, 10:17:50 PM
I thought I'd share how I inlaid my controller in a little wooden table...my entire work surface.

I plan to spray paint the back of the Lexan white once I decide how to label the buttons. 
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on November 26, 2011, 02:42:40 PM
Hey Igor,  I dont know if this is normal or not but for some reason, when I adjust the trim for my sub it adjusts the level of SPK1 + SPK2 also, as in the volume of all outputs is adjusted.  Is that how it is supposed to be?  Another issue I am having is the Speaker 2 output decreases volume between steps -48 to -47, -32 to -31, and -16 to -15.  I see a pattern there what is your take on it?  I ran the outputs back into my DAW to meter them and saw that when speaker 2 is active the sub output also responds the exact same way.  SPK1 output increases gain properly all the way from cut to zero.  When I was looking at my software meters I noticed another weird thing at the steps in which I listed above.  When I was actually looking at what the meters were reading it showed that at the step before each of the ones listed above, only one side (say the right side) would bump up a small bit in level, but the left would not, then at the next step the left channel only, would bump up to match the right.  After they were back inline the steps would become normal again until I reached the next step listed above, and then the same process would repeat again.  This has been going on since the unit was completed about a year ago and I just never had the time to address it, let me know what you think, thanks...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 26, 2011, 04:16:20 PM
Speaker 2 output decreases volume between steps -48 to -47, -32 to -31, and -16 to -15.

I had the same problem. I made sure I had all the resistors correct and finally figured out that it was because I was trying to drive a 600-ohm load - the loss was different at different steps (presumably because of the change in output impedance) which meant that at -47, for instance, the additional loss from trying to drive a low impedance load with a higher impedance output was larger in magnitude than the 1db increase caused by going from -48 to -47, thus a net loss. Mine works fine when going into a bridging input.

Best,

Ben

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on November 26, 2011, 04:47:37 PM
Thanks for hitting me back.  That makes sense to me when I hear the audible difference when listening through the speakers that are connected to SPK2 output, but why would it show up also when I send the signal from spk2 output back into my DAW to view the meters?  I have that set of speakers connected to the output of speaker 2 through a patchbay so it was easy to take those very same sends and route them back through my converters into my interface.  It appears that i see a visual representation of what I am hearing when I let the signal actually pass to the speakers.  Its not the biggest deal, just something I wanted to try and troubleshoot while I have the time.  I flipped the dip switch both directions with no change at all.   
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: plumsolly on November 26, 2011, 05:51:07 PM
why would it show up also when I send the signal from spk2 output back into my DAW to view the meters?

Yeah - this is confusing, your speaker's input should be high enough not for this to happen there either. Do you have anything else loading the outputs of the controller? What are your values for RL1-RL4?

Best,

Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 01, 2011, 05:46:28 PM
Hm... check resistor's values.

For people who asked me how to change SUB to SPK3, i.e

Changing the SUB to Speaker 3 (i.e. instead of having spk1 or spk 2 and sub over it, one of 3 speakers: spk1/spk2/spk3)

http://s251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/CRM/CRM%20sub%20to%20spk%203%20mod/

cut = magenta

connect = white

Please ignore wrongly cutted and connected back trace here:
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg291/diy33609/CRM/CRM%20sub%20to%20spk%203%20mod/P1060837.jpg

All tested and rechecked twice.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: KasperNyhus on January 23, 2012, 06:42:14 PM
Hi Igor

Got the CRM kit, and its looking really good! ;D

I know only very little about power supplys, so I have to ask why you use a switching type PSU in this CRM? Because of noise? Could a "normal" trafo based voltageregulated supply work?

I have tried to search the forum for an answer.

Thanks, Kasper
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 23, 2012, 07:20:37 PM
This thing is absolutely indifferent to power supply noise up to say 20 millivolts.
The power supply goes to relays coils and control ONLY.
So, use 12V 2A "digital" power supply and enjoy. Seriously, one of my friends running
same kit connected to +12V of hard disk connector of his PC. (Not recommended, just for example).

Use balanced equipment and ground properly. Dat's it.

I got 10 of A6833 (discontinued chip, relay driver) from local supplier. About 6-7 PCB's are still in stock. In case of whatever....mail etc ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: KasperNyhus on January 24, 2012, 06:43:50 AM
Ah I see. That makes a lot more sense.  :)

I'll ask my local electronics dealer guy. Yesterday I asked one of the other guy at the store, but he only found 200W+ expensive computer psu's...

In case of faliure of finding a PSU that works, do you have one spare? If Im lucky it will get through the customs... :)

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: KasperNyhus on January 26, 2012, 10:42:08 AM
PSU fixed.

Just a little question to ask now. I got some small yellow capacitors from Igor's kit marked "104" but the pcb print says "224" - is this ok? I looked at the pictures and the capacitors I got appear smaller than those Igor has used.

Thanks,
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zayance on January 26, 2012, 10:59:31 AM
PSU fixed.

Just a little question to ask now. I got some small yellow capacitors from Igor's kit marked "104" but the pcb print says "224" - is this ok? I looked at the pictures and the capacitors I got appear smaller than those Igor has used.

Thanks,

If it's for PS bypass caps, 104 (0.1uF) will do, 224 means 0.2uF
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: tomcat on January 26, 2012, 01:15:03 PM
Ah I see. That makes a lot more sense.  :)

I'll ask my local electronics dealer guy. Yesterday I asked one of the other guy at the store, but he only found 200W+ expensive computer psu's...

In case of faliure of finding a PSU that works, do you have one spare? If Im lucky it will get through the customs... :)

Look harder, they are all over. Reichelt (bad for Denmark), RS & Newark / Farnell. Should be able for you to get them in Denmark as well
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: KasperNyhus on January 26, 2012, 06:16:13 PM
Thanks guys! :)

Well for the PSU I found a 12v trafo originally bought for a DIY pultec which i switched because it was noisy when used as step-up... So i can easily make +-12v. A little bit more work but no waiting on shipment...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: timmygrimm on January 29, 2012, 01:49:00 PM

Got my CRM kits!

Should I worry about matching resistors?

Igor, PMed you about .cdr files. Do you have files for the back panel of the rack as well? Need to have proper dims for connector spacing. If anyone else has 'em please send my way.

Ordered this psu as per earlier post:

http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=S-25-12virtualkey63430000virtualkey709-S25-12

Hope it is good!

Thanks for this!

Tim
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on January 30, 2012, 02:25:34 PM
Resistors within 2% are fine, with max error +/-0.1db.
For .cdr files: please mail me (igor_jazz at yahoo), will send.
As well, http://ij-audio.com/downloads/CRM_DESIGN_COREL.zip
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: timmygrimm on February 06, 2012, 02:08:12 PM

Has anyone else tried to open these files? I can open the controller file, but the rear panel file will not open with my version of Corel. If anyone can post an .eps , .ai, etc I will be your best friend.

Tim
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on February 06, 2012, 08:47:38 PM
Corel 13 :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: arcOne on March 23, 2012, 01:31:34 AM
I can't seem to be able to find the relays for this anywhere. Is there an alternative to the MH4-12H or am I just looking in the wrong places?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 23, 2012, 10:56:43 AM
http://il.farnell.com/te-connectivity-axicom/v23105a5003a201/relay-pcb-dpdt-12vdc/dp/1608360
http://il.farnell.com/te-connectivity/mt2-c93402/relay-pcb-dpco-12vdc/dp/9913653
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-RY12W-K-TAKAMISAWA-12V-DPDT-Miniature-Relay-/220926306163?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33703be773
etc etc
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: arcOne on March 23, 2012, 12:27:55 PM
Thank you for the quick response.

So will any 12v DPDT relay with the DIP 16 footprint will work?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on March 23, 2012, 01:32:04 PM
Yep. Coil resistance should be higher than say 500R; use 50000 cycles and more rated relays for reliability;

Now, that's important.

Some guys told about clicks. The system should be balanced; it should have less possible DC offsets; that's all.

For the rest... do something performing better audio - wise, I want to see it!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Leonardo_007 on March 30, 2012, 05:11:22 AM
maybe a stupid question but how would you connect the CRM to the existing mixing console? via the monitor out plugs?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on April 04, 2012, 07:27:05 AM
maybe a stupid question but how would you connect the CRM to the existing mixing console? via the monitor out plugs?

Nope. You don't need the weirdness of console's monitor section soundpath and 2 volume controls.

For every console and purpose it will be different, however, possible to do it next way.

Say, INP1 of CRM connected to main A/D output; INP2 of CRM connected to main(master LR) console output;
master also slplitted to converter's input. If you need SOLO (AFL, PFL etc) monitoring, need to find on
console's monitor section card the point before relay (FET switch) where SOLO comes to, add pair of THAT1646,
maybe, will need a buffer before THAT1646, dep. on situ, and patch it to say INP3 of CRM.

You have in this case INP4 left for another 2TRK.

Nowadays, we used to SOLO/AFL/PFL from ProTools (or another workstation), as well as send to headphones... but, for AUX/groups monitoring,
if you have large console and sending to headphones, or use group processing from here, having console's SOLO point at CRM input can be useful.

In case somebody going to use my CRM with existing console and need SOLO/AFL etc hookup, just write here,
will need schemo of your console mon section.
 
 
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Leonardo_007 on May 04, 2012, 04:30:00 PM
issue has been resolved.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on July 30, 2012, 04:37:23 PM
Hi guys, I'm using this great unit for a long time in my studio but i never find some spare time to picture and post here. So, here we are :)

(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_ALL.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=ALL.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_CONTROL1.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=CONTROL1.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_CONTROL2.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=CONTROL2.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_CONTROL8.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=CONTROL8.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_CONTROL9.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=CONTROL9.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_FRONT.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=FRONT.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_INSIDE2.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=INSIDE2.jpg)
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/th_INSIDE3.jpg) (http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g8/mobidik/master%20controller/?action=view&current=INSIDE3.jpg)

Click on thumb for large pic's  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: zayance on July 31, 2012, 02:35:28 PM
ohh Fancy, Nice....
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on August 18, 2012, 02:21:35 PM
Awesome pictures, Moby!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ubxf on August 18, 2012, 06:51:47 PM
Is the CRM kit still for sale ? i didn't see it on your site
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on August 18, 2012, 07:39:01 PM
I still have PCB's and all parts in stock, yep, possible to make some kits on request. Mail/skype/Facebook.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: bluesbaz on August 29, 2012, 04:20:39 AM
I need to replace the encoder on my unit and cant seem to remember the specs. Anyone have an old bom or want to point me in the right direction?
Thanks for your consideration

Also for Igor I would love to suss out some still nagging problems over skype when/if you have the time.
-s
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on September 01, 2012, 02:42:19 AM
Awesome pictures, Moby!
Thanks mate, I forget to tell that it sounds great :) Real mastering tool  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on September 08, 2012, 05:55:44 PM
I need to replace the encoder on my unit and cant seem to remember the specs. Anyone have an old bom or want to point me in the right direction?
Thanks for your consideration

Also for Igor I would love to suss out some still nagging problems over skype when/if you have the time.
-s


Skype: I was at vacations, now at home; feel free to talk;
Encoder: for very reliable, un-kill-able thing, check HRPG-AD16.
I saw them used on evilbay for cheap. Need more info - feel free to ask.
ALPS is good enough, but I replaced them after some thinking.
We use HRPG-AD16 in DB Studios CRM on SSL 4k console (we added surround - 3 kits like yours from same control) and at La-Vi console.


Moby: thanx for your feedback!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 02, 2012, 05:15:49 AM


Hi everyone...
Does anyone by chance have a "fpd" for the remote-panel? Or at least a vectro-based drawing?

 Thanks a lot to any help...

Frederic
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 02, 2012, 09:49:07 AM
Corel Draw file is vector based.
http://ij-audio.com/downloads/CRM_DESIGN_COREL.zip
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 02, 2012, 03:14:23 PM
Purched one of your Babys, Igor ... thanks for your kind service!!  8)

If anyone still has a draw in fpd with the backside of the controler - panel id be very thankfull!!  :P

F
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on November 02, 2012, 07:37:28 PM
Thanx. You can convert Corel files to .plt by layers than import them into fpd.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on November 03, 2012, 10:30:50 PM


Hi everyone...
Does anyone by chance have a "fpd" for the remote-panel? Or at least a vectro-based drawing?

 Thanks a lot to any help...

Frederic
Here is the file I used https://www.dropbox.com/s/zi1j2ie5lceedr2/control.ai hope it helps  :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 04, 2012, 04:24:37 PM
Hey Moby. Thank you!
I tried to open it. But it does not open proper in Ilustrator. (only letters... seems like there is something wrong with the code? My Ilustrator Version is from CS5)

Could you convert it into a pdf so i at least could read out the measurements? Is there also something about the backside? (LED - panel)

Thanks a lot!!! :-) F
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on November 04, 2012, 04:45:00 PM
Hey Moby. Thank you!
I tried to open it. But it does not open proper in Ilustrator. (only letters... seems like there is something wrong with the code? My Ilustrator Version is from CS5)

Could you convert it into a pdf so i at least could read out the measurements? Is there also something about the backside? (LED - panel)

Thanks a lot!!! :-) F
I also have CS5 and when I dl the file site adds .ps but it still works for me. Anyway, here is the pdf as you asked. I don't understand what you mean by "Is there also something about the backside? (LED - panel)"  :-\
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 04, 2012, 05:00:50 PM
HA! Strange now it worked also for me... Cool. Sorry for this complication..

With the backside I meant to make the LED - Panel fit proper one had to cut out the backside a little bit so the LED sits on same level like top of Panel. So you did not cut it out from the back as I see. I think Pete did what i mean. (post 060 in this thread) He shows a pic with the panel from the backside. Thats what I wanna also do. ;-) (not 19" but cutting out the backside and also some threaded holes for the PCB) Thanks again. at least I got the exact measures now for the holes.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on November 04, 2012, 05:14:11 PM
Janzoulou, when you say "led", you are talking about switch? If so, than you just have to make smaller hole than mine, since there is no any backside. Check the Switch drawings.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 04, 2012, 05:17:31 PM
No.. sorry I meant the display! LOL But the drawing of the switch is also from help  :P Thanks Moby!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on November 04, 2012, 05:31:04 PM
No.. sorry I meant the display! LOL But the drawing of the switch is also from help  :P Thanks Moby!
The backside cutout you want is the cutout for the mask as I can see. Display is much smaller and positioned lower than switches top.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 04, 2012, 05:52:39 PM
this means Grandmaster put a glass to the back?

Is there a exact draw from the assembeled PCB  dimensions somewhere or do I have to wait ill the package arrives from Igor?

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on November 04, 2012, 06:03:45 PM
Check the files I uploaded. Everything is there. You can see the switches, holes, led displays dimensions and positions. What else you need  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on November 04, 2012, 06:20:03 PM
I want the Display or at least a glass - cover to be plain with the panel, if I describe it right? Guess I have to wait until the material is here to figure out that.  ::) Thought I could already start with something so it get a bit faster as I need a CRM. At the moment I am working with the SPL one and I dont like it anymore. Hey thanks a lot for your help and files you uploaded!!! I appreciate that.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 09, 2012, 09:48:13 PM
I want the Display or at least a glass - cover to be plain with the panel, if I describe it right? Guess I have to wait until the material is here to figure out that.  ::) Thought I could already start with something so it get a bit faster as I need a CRM. At the moment I am working with the SPL one and I dont like it anymore. Hey thanks a lot for your help and files you uploaded!!! I appreciate that.

Well, I just mill both front and plexi insert at cnc at the workshop. What controller enclosure are you using?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 10, 2012, 08:56:07 AM
Igor, as I mention before my controller works as a charm, but I have one tiny problem :/ Talkback latch. I made same mistake dozen times by commenting guy in studio. Wow, it's hard to be silent  :-X Is it possible to omit that function without reprogramming the PIC?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Igor on December 12, 2012, 03:32:10 AM
Haha :) I can understand.....
Sorry, it comes pre-defined. As I wrote here, program was written about 6 years ago, and code gone. I have only .hex of last version.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 12, 2012, 06:39:30 AM
Well, I assumed  :-\ Anyway, do you or somebody have an idea how to achieve some signalization of "talkback on" ? Can I make some external light like old school "on air" ?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on December 18, 2012, 04:04:07 PM
Igor,
Could you clarify how to install the 630-HRPG-AD16-56F encoder you recommended on the previous page as a replacement for the ALPS?
The 630-HRPG-AD16-56F datasheet shows these pins:
1:Ground
2:Channel B
3: VCC +5Volts
4:Channel A
5: Shield (housing ground)

Where should these be hooked up? Is +5V needed?

I did pin 1:Ground to C on the controller PCB, pin 2: Channel B to B on the pcb, and pin 4: Channel A to A on the PCB. But, my 7-segment displays don't light up - Encoder problem:?
thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on December 19, 2012, 02:32:33 PM
Encoder/7 segment display issues...

A follow up: I connected 5V to pin 3 of the 630-HRPG-AD16-56F encoder. Now when I power up the CRM it starts at 0 volume, and the volume increases no matter which way I turn the encoder. After it reaches the maximum volume the encoder stops working and the relays stop clicking. If I unplug the AC power and plug it in again everything resets and I can repeat the process.

Also, I used these green 7-segment displays:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=HDSP-4603virtualkey63050000virtualkey630-HDSP-4603 (http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=HDSP-4603virtualkey63050000virtualkey630-HDSP-4603)

They don't light up at all. I have 5V power at the controller PCB. Am I correct that these 7 segment displays should work in the CRM?
Any help is appreciated!
JS
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on December 20, 2012, 02:41:03 AM
SOLVED.
In case this happens to you....

The replacement encoder from Avago (630-HRPG-AD16-56F) works if you put +5V to the center terminal. But, I found it would only increase it's value unless you changed R13 and R14 to 1K as Igor put in an earlier post.

I tried replacing the red 7-segment displays I got from Igor with green ones, but it turns out that they weren't an exact replacement. I put the red ones in, wired up the encoder correctly, changed the resistors to 1K and now it is working great.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 20, 2012, 06:14:50 AM
SOLVED.
In case this happens to you....

The replacement encoder from Avago (630-HRPG-AD16-56F) works if you put +5V to the center terminal. But, I found it would only increase it's value unless you changed R13 and R14 to 1K as Igor put in an earlier post.

I tried replacing the red 7-segment displays I got from Igor with green ones, but it turns out that they weren't an exact replacement. I put the red ones in, wired up the encoder correctly, changed the resistors to 1K and now it is working great.
Thanks for sharing :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Benny on January 06, 2013, 02:30:34 PM
I finished soldering my CRM yesterday. Short time after each powerup the relays start to click randomly and the relays don't react to the input/speaker switches any longer. The "volume relays" don't react if I turn the encoder.

I checked the 7805 regulator on the relay board. After powerup it gets very hot and the voltage slowly drops from about 3,5V down. I took out the A6833 chip on the relay board and checked the voltage again. Without the chip I have 5V after the 7805 and the regulator stays cool.

I checked all resistor values and chip orientations and everything seems good. I checked for cold solder joints or blobs.

Following functions seem to work:

- encoder changes the level and display shows the level change, but volume-relays don't react
- selector switches work and the relays click if I switch ins/outs until the regulator gets too hot

The control board seems to be ok as all switches, LEDs and displays work.

I also checked the relay board without the control board connected and the regulator still gets hot and the voltage drops.
The orientation of the A6833 should be right, the arrow on the pcb marks pin 1???

Any ideas?
I thought about exchanging the A6833 chips but I don't want to fry both chips.

Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Benny on January 08, 2013, 11:49:26 AM
update:

I tested around a little and tried the A6833 chip from the relay board on the control board. Now the control board LEDs dont work an the 7805 regulator on the control board gets too hot to touch and the 6833 gets hot, too.

After that I took the working A6833 chip from the control board, put it in the socket on the relay board and, tadaaaaaaa, volume relays work nicely.

That makes me think one of the A6833 chips is fubar.

Igor, as those chips are obsolete now, is it possible that you could send me another one?
Or does anyone else know where I can get my hands on one?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Benny on January 15, 2013, 08:53:27 AM
Update:

After replacing the faulty A6833 chip with a new one the CRM works and sounds great.
Thanks Igor
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on February 17, 2013, 11:41:16 AM
For anybody who got a kit without them included, these 7segment displays work http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=5082-7650virtualkey63050000virtualkey630-5082-7650 (*you have to trim off 2 pins)

One more question... I'm curious if the 9-pin serial port is to get the talkback mic signal output to send to a separate cue system (I have a Hearback system and need to feed the TB alone to it). If so, which pins does the signal come out on?

Thanks
-Jim
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD/Resistor Values
Post by: Janzoulou on February 27, 2013, 04:46:03 AM
Hello...

I am stuffing the boards and just recognized that the resistor values, included in the kit are not exactly matching the BOM and the printed circuit. They differ like for example RA 22, 23,26,27 should be 1K98 and the ones I get are 1K92.
Is that causing any problems or can I use them? (most of the ones sitting besides the relays are like that)

And the question mentioned above (jimkeaney) is also from interest to me as I am also sending the TB seperate into HP and not need to combine it with any other signal.

Thanks a lot in advance! :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD/Resistor Values
Post by: jimkeaney on February 27, 2013, 08:12:12 AM
Hello...

I am stuffing the boards and just recognized that the resistor values, included in the kit are not exactly matching the BOM and the printed circuit. They differ like for example RA 22, 23,26,27 should be 1K98 and the ones I get are 1K92.
Is that causing any problems or can I use them? (most of the ones sitting besides the relays are like that)

And the question mentioned above (jimkeaney) is also from interest to me as I am also sending the TB seperate into HP and not need to combine it with any other signal.

Thanks a lot in advance! :-)

Janzoulou, I believe somewhere else in this thread Igor tells someone it's 'close enough' (the provided resistors are supposed to be within 1%), but I wouldn't worry too much. Some of my values weren't spot on, but close enough for me to differentiate which pile they belonged in when sorting. I just turned on my CRM last night for the first time, haven't tried passing audio yet, but it looks to be functional so far. Although, occasionally when I turn the level control slowly turning through the 'steps', the value will jump up several notches. Wondering if my pot is bad...

If you haven't yet, I highly recommend reading this entire thread (at least once) there are little problems/inconsistencies revealed long the way. Most of my questions were already answered in this thread.

PS - be sure to cut pin #4 on your VGA. It will short to ground and keep your CRM from working. That was my last hurdle.

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD/Resistor Values
Post by: Janzoulou on February 27, 2013, 08:53:26 AM

If you haven't yet, I highly recommend reading this entire thread (at least once) there are little problems/inconsistencies revealed long the way. Most of my questions were already answered in this thread.

PS - be sure to cut pin #4 on your VGA. It will short to ground and keep your CRM from working. That was my last hurdle.

Thanks for your response! Yeah, I read it already twice.. And found some answers though.  :D

I wont use a VGA as my box wil be set into a 19" Rack all together with a Telefunken Meter - Section. (VU + Mono - VU) So I will connect it direct.

As i understand the TB- Combiner can be used also without feeding anything into the inputs and send the TB-Mic signal direct to where you need it. Thats how I will do it. Thought about leaving the whole OP- Amp section out on the PCB but decided to stuff it so I can use it whenever I want to combine TB with HP-Mix.

One question is: LED1 on TB-Combiner will be "on" as long TB is active??
If yes I will put it to the front Panel to get an indication of TB... Earlier this thread someone talked about that, as TB will automatically latch after being held more than 4-5sec?

Another Question: will this DC/DC Converter work?
http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/dc-dc-wandler-isoliert/3114821/ (http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/dc-dc-wandler-isoliert/3114821/) It has 65mA and 2W... Maybe this post is placed wrong here as it is more about TB-Combiner?  ::) Thanks again!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on February 27, 2013, 08:59:12 AM
Yes LED lights when TB mic is engaged. I'm putting mine on front too.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on February 27, 2013, 09:09:37 AM
Yes LED lights when TB mic is engaged. I'm putting mine on front too.

 8)

Cool.. Regarding the DC/DC converter: Solved in my case as i anyway need +/- 15V for the Telefunken - Metersection.

Now i need to find a PSU - PCB for that but thats not a serious issue...  ;D

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on February 27, 2013, 09:21:39 AM
I'm doing meters too and I'm looking at jlmaudio.com they sell a stereo buffer amp kit.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on February 27, 2013, 10:34:36 AM
Quote
One question is: LED1 on TB-Combiner will be "on" as long TB is active??
If yes I will put it to the front Panel to get an indication of TB... Earlier this thread someone talked about that, as TB will automatically latch after being held more than 4-5sec?
Yes, make i visible and yes, it latch after 5 sec's
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD/Resistor Values
Post by: jimkeaney on February 27, 2013, 10:35:01 AM
Another Question: will this DC/DC Converter work?
http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/dc-dc-wandler-isoliert/3114821/ (http://de.rs-online.com/web/p/dc-dc-wandler-isoliert/3114821/) It has 65mA and 2W... Maybe this post is placed wrong here as it is more about TB-Combiner?  ::) Thanks again!

Heres the one igor recommended http://il.farnell.com/murata-power-solutions/mea1d1215sc/converter-dc-dc-sil-1w-15v/dp/1671264?_requestid=533100
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on February 27, 2013, 10:41:05 AM
(http://www.fonojet.com//downloads2/a117_meter_ohne_mono.jpg)

This is what I am including with an additional mono-meter (no pic so far...). Buffer amp, +20dB button included.

It show dB, not VU and if switched off it sits at 0dB. Design will be White coated with orange Letters. Cant wait to get the panel-cut from Frank.  8)

Regarding the "latch" - problem i decided to put an orange LED on the front panel, indicating the TB-mic being open.....

For the ones not combining audio- and CRM-PCB in one housing: I think they could use one Line of VGA-Cable to send the 5V to CRM - Unit and include a LED into the Panel?

Heres the one igor recommended http://il.farnell.com/murata-power-solutions/mea1d1215sc/converter-dc-dc-sil-1w-15v/dp/1671264?_requestid=533100

Thanks jimkeaney! But I already noticed that my Meter - Section also needs +/-15V so I don't need that conversion from 12V anymore and got the right voltage already.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ArnauTS on March 12, 2013, 07:26:24 PM
Anyone have a part number of the pushbuttons? Our two kits came with the "knobs" but not the pushbutton that goes soldered into the pcb and i need to order before the next week.
Thanks! ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on March 12, 2013, 09:49:27 PM
Are you talking about the "reset" button? Mine didn't include that either.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ArnauTS on March 13, 2013, 08:46:58 AM
No, just the other buttons for dim, inputs, speakers,trim.. M1,M2,SUB,TRIM,DIM...
You can see in the picture that i have none of this buttons, just got the black cover knobs on the kit.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=364119000370155&set=pb.130064960442228.-2207520000.1363178548&type=3&theater (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=364119000370155&set=pb.130064960442228.-2207520000.1363178548&type=3&theater)
Thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on March 13, 2013, 09:30:11 AM
Did you buy this kit recently? If so, I'm surprised those weren't included, since they are a good portion of this "complete kit". You should've received an $90 discount!

Here's the link from his BOM (but out of stock): http://il.farnell.com/multimec/3ftl600/switch-body-led-blue/dp/1132954

I see some here: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/3FTL600/679-2228-ND/2034784?WT.z_cid=ref_octopart_dkc_buynow
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ArnauTS on March 13, 2013, 08:47:40 PM
Thanks for the link,
Well, he or his assistant forgot to put them in so Igor will send them next week as he is sick now.
Hope they arrive soon and i can use it on the studio and i'm going to put the other kit in a neve 8016, will take pictures when it's finished.
Have a nice day guys :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on April 16, 2013, 06:03:26 PM
So I got mine finished and it works pretty well. Strange how it feels after 8 years working in my studio with a " normal " CRM. Feel a litle bit ashamed about the set up i got... High - end pres, mic,s cables, acoustics and converters.... But in front of the speakers the weakest box was plugged in the circuit.

Anyway, this Kit is amazing, even if it is not DIY friendly, like Igor says.

The only thing i dont understand why it has no CUT - button as there IS a Cut - state on the microchip. Should be easy to modify, no?

Soon I will post some pics.

Cheers to all!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on April 22, 2013, 03:30:39 PM
finished...  :)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/935750_455163897885543_1308768257_n.jpg)

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/399811_462763867142417_1483444666_n.jpg)

 For the TB I replaced the capsule in the MD 418 and found out the plexi got a small bulb inside!  8) Soon there will be light!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 20, 2013, 02:08:31 AM
Hi All,
I'm finishing to build the control room but I can't figure out how to mount the seven-segment display because the pins do not match on the pcb.
I have to cut the pins in excess or not ?
Anyone can clarify that ??
Thank you in advance !!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on May 20, 2013, 03:39:09 AM
Yes, exactly. Cut them. :-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 20, 2013, 05:41:50 AM
Hi Janzoulou,
The dot on the display are oriented down right ??
all the three displays are the same or have a precise mounting sequence ?
Thank you Again !!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on May 20, 2013, 06:21:01 AM
Don´t remember, but I htink yes. (as I remember logically it explains itself) and yes they are all the same.

Good luck!  8)

J
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 20, 2013, 06:30:27 AM
Thank you Man !!
I post pictures after finished Assembling :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 20, 2013, 10:58:53 AM
Also (if it's not already done) I remember the 7-segs sit in the same area as the ic sockets on the back. So just make sure you solder the correct side first ;) I cant remember which right now
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 21, 2013, 04:04:54 AM
HI jimkeaney,
you are right before you must solder the 7 segment display and after the big IC socket
i have another problem about the displays , two are labeled CM1-0302500 and one CM1-0301500-H
and i am confused about the right mounting order , and one of the two type not matching on the PCB pinout
can you help me to clarify this ??
thank you in advance
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 21, 2013, 11:25:20 AM
HI jimkeaney,
you are right before you must solder the 7 segment display and after the big IC socket
i have another problem about the displays , two are labeled CM1-0302500 and one CM1-0301500-H
and i am confused about the right mounting order , and one of the two type not matching on the PCB pinout
can you help me to clarify this ??
thank you in advance
Fabio

You may've received 3 of the same displays but from different stock (ie. different #'s). My kit did not include the 7-segs from Igor, so I purchased them here: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=5082-7650virtualkey63050000virtualkey630-5082-7650

I did have to trim a couple legs off so they would mount... and I think they only fit in one way. I used 3 identical displays, so I'm guessing it won't matter which order you put them.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 22, 2013, 03:49:21 AM
Hi jimkeaney
The display are differents because the pinout is different
two of them are ok (i trim two legs on each one) but one (labeled CM1-0301500-H ) are not fitting on the PCB
so i must order it on RS with this code 113-4441
i have another issue if i place the 7 segments on the pcb the big socket on the other face remains raised , i must trim the pin of the 7 segments after soldering ?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 22, 2013, 05:16:42 AM
This is a picture of the two type of 7 segment display
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 22, 2013, 01:32:45 PM
Hi jimkeaney
The display are differents because the pinout is different
two of them are ok (i trim two legs on each one) but one (labeled CM1-0301500-H ) are not fitting on the PCB
so i must order it on RS with this code 113-4441
i have another issue if i place the 7 segments on the pcb the big socket on the other face remains raised , i must trim the pin of the 7 segments after soldering ?

Yes, I probably trimmed the pins after soldering to keep it low profile.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 24, 2013, 12:57:19 AM
@jimkeaney @Janzoulou
I have another issue , you have mounted on the pcb the photoresistor and the reset switch ??
If yes can you give me the code (farnell, RS, Digikey) of the two parts ?
Thank you in advance
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 24, 2013, 02:07:11 AM
@jimkeaney @Janzoulou
I have another issue , you have mounted on the pcb the photoresistor and the reset switch ??
If yes can you give me the code (farnell, RS, Digikey) of the two parts ?
Thank you in advance
Fabio

Both are optional, I believe. You can reset the program using the trim button. Igor outlines the process earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 24, 2013, 06:19:54 AM
@jimkeaney @Janzoulou
I have another issue , you have mounted on the pcb the photoresistor and the reset switch ??
If yes can you give me the code (farnell, RS, Digikey) of the two parts ?
Thank you in advance
Fabio
You can leave out the reset switch.

Photoresistor used as brightness controll for 7-seg display.

No brightness controll: use 3k3 (brighter).....8k2(dim) resistor at the place of R20, ommit photoresistor and R21.
For me, optimal value is 5k6.

If you want to use brightness controll option, install R20,21 and use photoresistor-
allmost everything will work here... Roff >100k, Ron 0.3...2k.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 25, 2013, 12:10:05 AM
Hello remaining few CRM builders. I finally finished my kit today and installed it into my studio. Blew a few things up along the way and learned a lot in the process. Special thanks to anyone who chimed in here to help out and Brian from TB Audio (user Horvitz) for providing lots of info/support for a product that wasn't even his :) Here are some photos if you care to see...

(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm1.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm2.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm3.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm4.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm6.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm7.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm8.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm9.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm5.jpg)
(http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/crm10.jpg)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 25, 2013, 12:44:32 AM
PS - anyone have any idea if it would possible to modify the Mon1 & 2 buttons so they aren't either/or but on and off. I miss being able to solo the sub :(
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 25, 2013, 01:49:16 AM
Hi jimkeaney,
Many compliments great job !!
How does it sound ??
about the sub solo problem
the sub is always working even if you press monitor 1 or monitor 2?
I ask because I have a sub genelec 7060A and I wanted to connect it to sub out
but I have not finished my kit and i don't know how it works
after finished i'm testing and I'll tell you my impression

I have another issue about the displays
do you have installed before or after the big socket on the other side of the pcb ? because if i solder before the displays i cannot reach some of the pin of the socket !!
I arrived the display was missing but is different than the kit
but if I try to mount the pcb corresponds perfectly to screen printing because it is a little more wide
anyone have the right code of the display kit ?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 25, 2013, 02:12:18 AM
A picture of the two displays
right the display including in the kit
on left the rs components code 113-4441
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 25, 2013, 10:33:27 AM
Hi jimkeaney,
Many compliments great job !!
How does it sound ??
about the sub solo problem
the sub is always working even if you press monitor 1 or monitor 2?
I ask because I have a sub genelec 7060A and I wanted to connect it to sub out
but I have not finished my kit and i don't know how it works
after finished i'm testing and I'll tell you my impression

I have another issue about the displays
do you have installed before or after the big socket on the other side of the pcb ? because if i solder before the displays i cannot reach some of the pin of the socket !!
I arrived the display was missing but is different than the kit
but if I try to mount the pcb corresponds perfectly to screen printing because it is a little more wide
anyone have the right code of the display kit ?

Thanks. It sounds fine... It's passive so I don't hear anything noticeably different.

Thinking back I believe I installed the sockets on the back before soldering the displays in. It leaves only a tight space for soldering the displays, but I was able to okay.

The sub button works on or off. But if you are using both the MON1 & MON2 outputs for 2 sets of speakers, one pair will always be chosen (on) so there is no way to listen ONLY to the sub. I wish all 3 output buttons worked as on/off's... but Mon 1 & 2 toggle between. I don't know if this is a programming thing that cannot be modified?

Yes, your 2 different displays look silly. The bigger one on the left (in the photo) is the correct size. I provided you a link to the ones I bought on the previous page in this thread. Use them. They definitely fit and work. Heres that link again http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=5082-7650virtualkey63050000virtualkey630-5082-7650



Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 25, 2013, 11:38:52 PM
My CRM had it's first full day today and I had an issue where the vocalist said my talk back level suddenly dropped severely in his headphones (about 8 hours into the session). Then about 30 minutes later the talk back audio had completely cut out. I didn't have time to tinker in that moment, but at the end of the day I checked the connection at the rack unit and everything looked proper. When I powered the unit down and back on, the talk back volume was working fine again. Curious to see if this happens again during tomorrows session. Any ideas out there?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 27, 2013, 10:58:49 AM
Hi jimkeaney
Do you have the front panel design file of the remote control ?
because i can't find the correct height of the cutout for the display ...
anyone can clarify this ?
Thank you all
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 27, 2013, 11:09:25 AM
Do you have the front panel design file of the remote control ?
because i can't find the correct height of the cutout for the display ...
anyone can clarify this ?
Thank you all
Fabio
here we go https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3863856/BOX.zip
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 27, 2013, 11:18:38 AM
Hi Moby,
Thank you for the info !!
i don't have corel draw on my pc ....
can you tell me the value of the height of the cutout of display ?
because i have the height of the mono knob that is 83.7 mm but the display seems to be a little bit up
let me know
Thank you in advance !!
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 27, 2013, 11:45:34 AM
OK, find it attached as PDF. Enjoy  8)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 27, 2013, 11:58:38 AM
thank you man !!!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 27, 2013, 02:50:21 PM
@Moby
what kind of thickness you choose for the remote panel ? 3mm ??
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 27, 2013, 04:36:32 PM
here is the one I found (in this thread maybe) and built from

(attached)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 27, 2013, 04:42:45 PM
Here's my FPE panel file. My window came out a little wider (maybe 3mm too wide on each side) and the bottom has a 4mm gap I could've tightened up.

http://www.devotionrecording.com/CRM/CRM-panel.fpd
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 27, 2013, 04:49:56 PM
Hi Jimkeaney,
Thank you for the file !!
The problem on the original drawing is no height for the display cutout
this is why your panel have a gap on bottom side of the display
so now i measure the PCB for found the measure
if i found the right measure i send you
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 27, 2013, 05:42:18 PM
the right measure for the display is 85,60 mm
is +1,90 mm respect the MONO and TRIM height
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 27, 2013, 05:43:04 PM
fabio, yes I think i tried my best to measure based on the pcb display location. hope yours comes closer. too late for me, my panel is done. but it looks fine. it's dark inside the controller case especially when the display lights are on, so it still looks nice.  ;)

PS my level pot didn't fit through the 6.5mm(as indicated) on a powder coated panel. just FYI. you might wanna go to 7 to have a little room. Also, thinking now I should've mounted that level pot a little higher from the board. not sure the shaft is tall enough for certain knobs to fasten to nicely.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 27, 2013, 07:18:34 PM
@Moby
what kind of thickness you choose for the remote panel ? 3mm ??
Nope, 2mm.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 28, 2013, 03:41:57 PM
I'm having some bizarre issues with my CRM these past 2 days. The input volume dropped severely on the right channel. When I put pressure on the audio board, it would become intermittent, so I tracked it down to a bad solder joint on one relay. After I reflowed the solder, things were functioning okay. But then a few minutes later I noticed the volume dropped again and this is the weird part... when I turn the volume from -33 to -34 it actually gets twice as loud. Then from -34 down, each step gets quieter (as it should). But something is definitely wrong. Any ideas out there?

One concern I have is... I'm using a 12v 2.1A PSU as Igor advised, but are we assuming the TB combiner can run safely from that too? Then, I also added a VU meter buffer amp (pulls 10mA) which I'm running from that same PSU as well. Could any of these issues be related to insufficient power?

Thanks for the help
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 28, 2013, 03:56:25 PM
Hi Jimkeaney,
Can you try to power up the unit using an laboratory psu ? if yes you can measure the total absorb of your unit and if is more than 2.1 Ampere the problem is there .
let me know
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 28, 2013, 04:38:28 PM
Thanks for the reply audioman. I do not have a lab psu, but perhaps I can use my DMM to figure out the load? Would need some instructions on that though.

Also in the build docs for the CRM it states that all Molex connectors are:

1: +
2: ground
3: -

When I DMM audio output molex pins 1 & 3 there is continuity. Should the hot & cold be connected at the board?

Also can anyone tell me exactly how they have these boards grounded? I see 2 Aground pads. Chassis? anywhere else? Should the db25 connectors claws also be soldered? I feel like my issue has something to do with bad grounding or balanced/unbalanced issues.

thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 30, 2013, 12:29:40 AM
update on my issues... I reflowed all solder connections on the audio board and everything seems to be working again fine. I did find a couple suspicious spots (oops). I also figured out that I had a strange problem with one of the cables going to my RIGHT Genelec 1031a. Get this... when I would engage my API2500 compressor, the right speaker would drop drastically in volume. I still have no idea how that could be possible since I metered the compressor alone and it's in and outs were balanced fine. Maybe an impedance thing? Bizarre. anyhow, for now, I think I'm okay with the CRM  :-X

PS I'm still curious how and where other builders grounded their CRM's
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 30, 2013, 01:41:53 AM
Hi Jimkeaney
you cannot measure the load of your unit with the multimeter in parallel you must measure it in series .
this is why i ask you if was possible power up the unit with a laboratory psu.
my unit is almost finished and i count to power up on saturday and i will make some measure
during the measures i make some picture and post here
yes claws are be soldered

P.S. i presume DMM mean Digital Multi Meter  :D :D :D :D :D


Thanks for the reply audioman. I do not have a lab psu, but perhaps I can use my DMM to figure out the load? Would need some instructions on that though.

Also in the build docs for the CRM it states that all Molex connectors are:

1: +
2: ground
3: -

When I DMM audio output molex pins 1 & 3 there is continuity. Should the hot & cold be connected at the board?

Also can anyone tell me exactly how they have these boards grounded? I see 2 Aground pads. Chassis? anywhere else? Should the db25 connectors claws also be soldered? I feel like my issue has something to do with bad grounding or balanced/unbalanced issues.

thanks!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 31, 2013, 04:17:24 PM
Hi Jimkeaney
you cannot measure the load of your unit with the multimeter in parallel you must measure it in series .
this is why i ask you if was possible power up the unit with a laboratory psu.
my unit is almost finished and i count to power up on saturday and i will make some measure
during the measures i make some picture and post here
yes claws are be soldered

P.S. i presume DMM mean Digital Multi Meter  :D :D :D :D :D


Thanks for the reply audioman. I do not have a lab psu, but perhaps I can use my DMM to figure out the load? Would need some instructions on that though.

Also in the build docs for the CRM it states that all Molex connectors are:

1: +
2: ground
3: -

When I DMM audio output molex pins 1 & 3 there is continuity. Should the hot & cold be connected at the board?

Also can anyone tell me exactly how they have these boards grounded? I see 2 Aground pads. Chassis? anywhere else? Should the db25 connectors claws also be soldered? I feel like my issue has something to do with bad grounding or balanced/unbalanced issues.

thanks!

cool, I'll solder the claws - can;t hurt ;) Yes, I meant Digital Multi Meter.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 31, 2013, 04:24:11 PM
I put VU meters in my CRM rack just to show where the program level is. But because I work mostly in the DAW (dbfs) I'm starting to think VU's were a bad idea. My convertors "zero" is +22 (SSL alphalink). The VU meters only have about 25db of 'range' as it is. I envy Janzoulou's meters (like 40db of range) post #428 :)

Would it be silly to add a switch at the meters that adds an attenuator to the meter feed before it hits the VU amp? Or after? If I did this, I'd like to pad it accurately so I imagine some sort of trimpots would be necessary. Can anyone point me to a schematic or general ideas of what it would take to make this happen?

One big concern, will attenuating the meter feed effect the (resistance) anywhere else in the CRM?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 31, 2013, 04:56:02 PM
Hi Jimkeaney,
i though to put vu meter on my build but after read your post the doubt are coming !!
The meter showing the inputs ?
i have a pair of sifam R32AF but i don't know if is a good or a ba idea installing in the unit ...
i also use DAW for work and i don't know what to do now
I also looking for the datasheet of the sifam R32AF for the cutout of the meter bezel anyone can sent me ?

P.S. did you solve the problem of volume drop ?



I put VU meters in my CRM rack just to show where the program level is. But because I work mostly in the DAW (dbfs) I'm starting to think VU's were a bad idea. My convertors "zero" is +22 (SSL alphalink). The VU meters only have about 25db of 'range' as it is. I envy Janzoulou's meters (like 40db of range) post #428 :)

Would it be silly to add a switch at the meters that adds an attenuator to the meter feed before it hits the VU amp? Or after? If I did this, I'd like to pad it accurately so I imagine some sort of trimpots would be necessary. Can anyone point me to a schematic or general ideas of what it would take to make this happen?

One big concern, will attenuating the meter feed effect the (resistance) anywhere else in the CRM?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 31, 2013, 05:01:02 PM


One big concern, will attenuating the meter feed effect the (resistance) anywhere else in the CRM?
If you put any resistance in parallel to your existing input impedance it will be changed of course. But, you can make cheap opamp hi Z input buffer and after that to trim signal for your VU's. That way  the impedance change will be aceptable.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on May 31, 2013, 05:05:56 PM
Hi Moby,
Your advice is make a meter buffer for attenuate the meter feed ??



One big concern, will attenuating the meter feed effect the (resistance) anywhere else in the CRM?
If you put any resistance in parallel to your existing input impedance it will be changed of course. But, you can make cheap opamp hi Z input buffer and after that to trim signal for your VU's. That way  the impedance change will be aceptable.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 31, 2013, 06:49:34 PM
Hi Moby,
Your advice is make a meter buffer for attenuate the meter feed ??



One big concern, will attenuating the meter feed effect the (resistance) anywhere else in the CRM?
If you put any resistance in parallel to your existing input impedance it will be changed of course. But, you can make cheap opamp hi Z input buffer and after that to trim signal for your VU's. That way  the impedance change will be aceptable.
Right. Or you can do it passivelly but with possible impedance degradation. What's the input impedance of your amplifier ? Try to calculate parallel resistance of the amp and passive attenuation network and see is it drops below 10k. If yes, then is better to go with active buffer. Just my 0.2 c
Edit: sorry, i missed the detail of VU measuring the input. Right? Sorry if I confused you, I was typing in hurry. Maybe the best route is to try passive. If you don't have any signal drop, than you are done. ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 31, 2013, 07:14:44 PM


One big concern, will attenuating the meter feed effect the (resistance) anywhere else in the CRM?
If you put any resistance in parallel to your existing input impedance it will be changed of course. But, you can make cheap opamp hi Z input buffer and after that to trim signal for your VU's. That way  the impedance change will be aceptable.

Thanks Moby

I already have a buffer amp before the VU meters. This one from JLM http://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=163

They come with 25-turn trimpots to calibrate the meters. Would I be able to take the signal after that trimpot and add a switch in the path with another trimpot to further pad it (-22)? or is this a messy idea? If ok, how could I add such a switch/circuit? Thanks for the ideas/help :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on May 31, 2013, 07:28:46 PM
Quote
I already have a buffer amp before the VU meters. This one from JLM http://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=163

They come with 25-turn trimpots to calibrate the meters. Would I be able to take the signal after that trimpot and add a switch in the path with another trimpot to further pad it (-22)? or is this a messy idea? If ok, how could I add such a switch/circuit? Thanks for the ideas/help
You can probably make that with paralleling one more trim , but I can't see the schemo of the buffer. Is the trimmer gain of the amp or input pot? If it's gain, than adding one more trimm and making it switchable can do the job.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 01, 2013, 12:05:34 AM
Quote
I already have a buffer amp before the VU meters. This one from JLM http://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=163

They come with 25-turn trimpots to calibrate the meters. Would I be able to take the signal after that trimpot and add a switch in the path with another trimpot to further pad it (-22)? or is this a messy idea? If ok, how could I add such a switch/circuit? Thanks for the ideas/help
You can probably make that with paralleling one more trim , but I can't see the schemo of the buffer. Is the trimmer gain of the amp or input pot? If it's gain, than adding one more trimm and making it switchable can do the job.

The trimpot on the board looks like it's right at the input, so maybe I should grab the output of the buffer amp (right before it hits the vu meter) and add a switch 2nd trimpot there?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on June 01, 2013, 07:03:14 AM
It's really hard to judge without schematics. All you can do is to try.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on June 02, 2013, 04:56:28 AM
Hi All
yesterday i power on for the first time my unit , without the box because at the moment is not ready
after trying 3 different vga cable i must solder a DIY vga cable because all three have a short inside on the pin 4 (as describe in the before pages of the thread )
after that the unit is working correctly and comparing to the mixing desk control room (tac scorpion) is absolutely amazing clean sound !!
it was like change my studio monitors !! absolute fantastic thanks to Igor for this amazing work !! he is an absolutely genius !!
now it's time to finish design the box of the remote control and the front panel
when i finish the unit i post some pictures
at the moment looks like this  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 02, 2013, 09:22:16 AM
Hi All
yesterday i power on for the first time my unit , without the box because at the moment is not ready
after trying 3 different vga cable i must solder a DIY vga cable because all three have a short inside on the pin 4 (as describe in the before pages of the thread )
after that the unit is working correctly and comparing to the mixing desk control room (tac scorpion) is absolutely amazing clean sound !!
it was like change my studio monitors !! absolute fantastic thanks to Igor for this amazing work !! he is an absolutely genius !!
now it's time to finish design the box of the remote control and the front panel
when i finish the unit i post some pictures
at the moment looks like this  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Congrats! Doesn't it feel great to see it come alive? I too had issues with pin 4 on the VGA. So I grabbed pin 4 with needlenose plyers and just pulled them out on each end. Problem solved :)

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on June 02, 2013, 11:38:50 AM
yes when you see it come alive is amazing !! technologic miracle
right now i design the front panel and the control panel ... front panel design time !!
the only doubt is regarding install or not the vu meter on the front panel
do you think are useful or not ?
another think that i don't understand is the setting of the dip switch on the audio board
can you explain me the function of that ?
thank you in advance
Fabio

Hi All
yesterday i power on for the first time my unit , without the box because at the moment is not ready
after trying 3 different vga cable i must solder a DIY vga cable because all three have a short inside on the pin 4 (as describe in the before pages of the thread )
after that the unit is working correctly and comparing to the mixing desk control room (tac scorpion) is absolutely amazing clean sound !!
it was like change my studio monitors !! absolute fantastic thanks to Igor for this amazing work !! he is an absolutely genius !!
now it's time to finish design the box of the remote control and the front panel
when i finish the unit i post some pictures
at the moment looks like this  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Congrats! Doesn't it feel great to see it come alive? I too had issues with pin 4 on the VGA. So I grabbed pin 4 with needlenose plyers and just pulled them out on each end. Problem solved :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on June 02, 2013, 11:54:24 AM
DIP3 switch SW2 used to adjust  controller/amp's impedance.
In 99% cases, EXCEPT you need very precision level steps, exactly 1db,
it is not necessary to mess with it. You can even go without ZL and ZR relays.

Regarding VU, it's really personal choice but I will never install it in the master controller. Maybe some precision led/peak with more useful functions (peak, rms, bla, bla..) Moving coil? I can't see any reason for it . Again, that's just my 0.2c  8)

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 02, 2013, 04:24:24 PM
I can't see any reason for it . Again, that's just my 0.2c  8)

yes, I agree now that I see how little sense it makes in my set-up. If you work in a DAW mostly (like I do), the VU meters aren't as important as dbfs. Because say you're mastering right up to digital "zero" (could be +22db) Your VU meter will be pinned in the red! Even mixing at -10 dbfs, that would pin a VU. Maybe a dorrough/led/peak meter would've made more sense for me. That's why I'm reconsidering it now. Cosmetically though, it looks pretty cool  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on June 03, 2013, 04:02:24 PM
Hi all,
about the Vu now all is more clear , and now i ask you an advice
what kind of metering are suggested ? RTW PPM ?
or do you know any dbfs kit for sale ?
i'm asking you before close the front panel ....
let me know
Thank you in advance
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 03, 2013, 08:50:30 PM
Hi all,
about the Vu now all is more clear , and now i ask you an advice
what kind of metering are suggested ? RTW PPM ?
or do you know any dbfs kit for sale ?
i'm asking you before close the front panel ....
let me know
Thank you in advance
Fabio

Jlmaudio.com has some ppm led type kit. I probably should have gone with that myself
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on June 04, 2013, 06:45:47 AM
this one ??
http://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=100&added=1
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 12, 2013, 07:16:52 AM
this one ??
http://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=100&added=1

Yeah, that's the one I was considering. Now I'm wondering if buying a pair of used Dorrough meters might be a cheaper solution.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: CapRock on June 19, 2013, 08:40:51 AM
Hey Igor,
      My CRM just started acting funny and I was looking for some advice.  Basically the overall level is way down and there is an overlaying distortion or noise floor that is as loud as the signal if not louder.  This happens on every input to every output so it appears to be a global issue.  All of the settings on the desktop controller are correct.  I have verified this from various sources and tested the cabling all the way to the DB-25 to TRS snake that enters the input side of the CRM and everything is clean.  I checked the DB-25's and they all appear to be in perfect condition. Does anyone have any idea about what could have happened or where I can start checking for issues?   Right now I am unable to work because of this issue.  I would describe the sound as if you pushed a mix through a heavy limiter to the point at which it was mostly distortion and no headroom.  AS I said the volume is also much lower.  Let me know if anyone has any suggestions. thanks
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on June 19, 2013, 10:47:25 AM
I would like to have the idea and help, but i'ts hard to believe that passive network can cause this kind of distortion. Are you sure that when you connect your source directly (no controller at all) to the monitor amp issue dissapier?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on June 22, 2013, 03:34:03 PM
Hi All,
I need an info about wiring .
I need to wire a second remote control connector on the front panel of my unit, anyone have the pinout to follow ?
Let me know
Thank you in advance
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 22, 2013, 04:41:41 PM
not sure if this helps...?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on June 25, 2013, 01:14:15 PM
I'm about a month into using this now. Is anyone else noticing this issue... Occasionally my mix volume will seem softer or louder than where it was earlier that day (in relation to the controllers volume position). For example... sometimes "-20" doesn't seem as loud as "-20" was the day before. Sometimes I noticed that the relays don't always click, especially when I go lower on the level knob (like below -45. I feel like there is pent up resistance or something I cannot properly articulate. So I restart the unit and that solves the issue. Curious what causes this?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on July 02, 2013, 02:52:24 AM
Hi All,
I have a stability problem with my unit,
The problem is : when you switch on the unit and turn the level knob up or down the the level increase only !!
the level incease until reach the 0 level but after a few minutes the unit reach a sort of stabilization and all is working good for hours !!
since i received a wrong type of ic's in the kit (IC2 74AC125N) i go to my local electronics shop and i buy the right one maybe is the wrong one anyone can confirm is the right one ?
Let me know
Thank you in advance
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on August 19, 2013, 03:20:30 PM
I would like to have the idea and help, but i'ts hard to believe that passive network can cause this kind of distortion. Are you sure that when you connect your source directly (no controller at all) to the monitor amp issue dissapier?

@ CapRock: did you try this?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on October 01, 2013, 03:28:47 PM
Any one can make a copy from his V2 software eeprom? I need a new one and Igor is not reachable!

Thank's dom
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on October 01, 2013, 04:10:03 PM
Any one can make a copy from his V2 software eeprom? I need a new one and Igor is not reachable!

Thank's dom
It's not a big deal to make a copy but I think it's copy protected. It that case it's almost imposible :/
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on October 01, 2013, 04:45:32 PM
Hey Moby,

thank's for answer!

Do you have a eeprom reader and can check out if there's a copy protection in it!

Thank's
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on October 01, 2013, 05:04:54 PM
Mine is protected, let us know if you succeed.  :-\
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on October 01, 2013, 05:34:27 PM
now only Igor can help! I hope the guru read his mails.

Many thank's to you moby!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Benny on October 10, 2013, 01:17:25 PM
Is it possible to use a standard psu instead of the switching mode psu?
I'm going to put the CRM into a mixing console and it would be easy to use the console psu.
I searched the thread but couldn't find an answer.

Ben
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on October 12, 2013, 03:14:17 AM
Hello,

we are now three CRM builders around the world with out the CRM 2.0 eeprom!!! Altogether we need 5 CRM eeproms!!!
Any one here need it too, can make contact to Igor, or can help anyway?

With out this IC we never finish the CRM and we buy a lot money for trash!!! I think that's a little fraud....!?!


Thank's Dominic   
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on October 12, 2013, 06:13:33 AM
Is it possible to use a standard psu instead of the switching mode psu?
I'm going to put the CRM into a mixing console and it would be easy to use the console psu.
I searched the thread but couldn't find an answer.

Ben
It's possible, but you have t check if your console Psu has spare power.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: gyraf on October 12, 2013, 09:08:34 AM
It's read protected afaik.

A friend of mine ended up ditching the control board, and setting up an arduino or similar for directly controlling the relay board from computer.

I'll see if he can be persuaded to share the needed code

Jakob E.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ramshackles on October 14, 2013, 02:53:51 AM
Hi guys.
Can someone explain to me a bit about this eeprom? What is it's function, what is the chip etc etc. Any useful information?

Cheers!


PS I should add that I'm a programmer by day, so coming up with a new code might be a possibility. I just don't know anything about it yet.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on October 14, 2013, 10:07:58 AM
It controls the relay network for input select, speaker select, volume etc on the monitor controller.  Momentary tactile buttons and a rotary encoder are used to control al the functions.

I'm not sure about the model of the EEPROM that is used. 

As well as simple relay control, there's some basic programmable stuff whereby you can set your own level for the Dim button and that kind of thing.

Here's the schematic of the control board :

http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/contr_SCH.gif.html

It seems like the EEPROM is the weak link in this unit.  I also had to organise a replacement with Igor at one point.  That was a few years ago and fortunately my unit has been rock solid ever since.  It really is an excellent box (when there's a working EEPROM!)

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on October 14, 2013, 10:20:23 AM
It controls the relay network for input select, speaker select, volume etc on the monitor controller.  Momentary tactile buttons and a rotary encoder are used to control al the functions.

I'm not sure about the model of the EEPROM that is used. 

As well as simple relay control, there's some basic programmable stuff whereby you can set your own level for the Dim button and that kind of thing.

Here's the schematic of the control board :

http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/contr_SCH.gif.html

It seems like the EEPROM is the weak link in this unit.  I also had to organise a replacement with Igor at one point.  That was a few years ago and fortunately my unit has been rock solid ever since.  It really is an excellent box (when there's a working EEPROM!)

The EEPROM used is an A6833SEPT from ALEGRO. And there are two of them, one on the control board and one on the circuit board.

http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/pcb_audio.gif.html (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/pcb_audio.gif.html)

It controls the switching of relays and lightning of LED´s.
Best, Fredi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on October 14, 2013, 10:33:05 AM

Hi Fredi,

Those A6833s are LED drivers.  The EEPROM is labelled as CRM v2.00 in this pic :

http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/contr_btm.gif.html
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on October 14, 2013, 10:34:02 AM
It controls the relay network for input select, speaker select, volume etc on the monitor controller.  Momentary tactile buttons and a rotary encoder are used to control al the functions.

I'm not sure about the model of the EEPROM that is used. 

As well as simple relay control, there's some basic programmable stuff whereby you can set your own level for the Dim button and that kind of thing.

Here's the schematic of the control board :

http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/contr_SCH.gif.html

It seems like the EEPROM is the weak link in this unit.  I also had to organise a replacement with Igor at one point.  That was a few years ago and fortunately my unit has been rock solid ever since.  It really is an excellent box (when there's a working EEPROM!)

The EEPROM used is an A6833SEPT from ALEGRO. And there are two of them, one on the control board and one on the circuit board.

http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/pcb_audio.gif.html (http://s251.photobucket.com/user/diy33609/media/pcb_audio.gif.html)

It controls the switching of relays and lightning of LED´s.
Best, Fredi
As far I know 6833 is driver not Eeprom. We are looking for the 40pin chip

Edit: oops, sorry rob_gould was faster ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ramshackles on October 14, 2013, 04:48:15 PM
Is anyone with the eeprom able to read a part # or was it scratched off on all of them ?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ramshackles on October 14, 2013, 04:56:49 PM
PIC16F887 could be a likely candidate
(Or any/most 40 pin PIC's)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on October 14, 2013, 05:52:22 PM
Hi,

mine is hooked into the console right now and I am in the middle of a production. As soon I am able to open it I will have a look.

@ rob:

Oh, I my fault, sorry to confuse.  :-[
I right away thought this must be the programmed item, as I had a faulty one. Igor sent me another one and pointed out to me that this was one of his last ones and he cant do new ones again because he has no contact to the programmer anymore...

When it was faulty nothing worked in the controller and wherever the faulty was sitting (either on the audio-circuit or the controller-board) the relays where not switching... I assumed this would control the relays and not the E-prom.

Also if you look on the board from the circuit it could mean that the A6833SEPT is switching the relays, not the eprom?

But I have no glue about these things.. more into analog world. ;-)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on October 14, 2013, 07:23:36 PM
PIC16F887 could be a likely candidate
(Or any/most 40 pin PIC's)
also the PIC18F452, PIC16C77X, PICAXE-40x, PICAXE-40x2... are 40pin and the same Vdd (11+32) pinning as used in the CRM. We are maybe hunting the ghost here  :(
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ArnauTS on October 26, 2013, 05:19:09 AM
Mine it's working fine but will be nice to help and also to have one spare. I'll see on my unit that it's used the PIC18F4620.
Hope it helps and someone can program one.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on October 26, 2013, 08:39:40 AM
I'll see on my unit that it's used the PIC18F4620.
Hope it helps and someone can program one.
Thanks, that's the guy we are looking for :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on November 24, 2013, 04:17:13 AM
Hi All,
I have found the problem that cause the instability problem in my unit
the problem is the temperature of the IC5 MM5540 , when the chip is cold the encoder of the unit not responding correctly but when the chip goes in the temperature the unit start to work perfectly !!
i redid the solder joints on all the control board but some points are not reacheble because hidden by the three 7 segment display
anyone have idea of how reach these points ?
maybe with a hot air gun
Let me know
Thank you All
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: kishibashi on November 24, 2013, 04:04:24 PM
I've been kept up to date from audiocommand. Thanks!
I have two units completely built with chassis but missing the CRM v2 chip as well. I hope a solution is reached :/

I've been looking through this thread multiple times, but having a hard time finding a transformer/psu to fit the 1U chassis in the US. Anyone have a lead?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on December 09, 2013, 03:16:09 AM
Hi All,
After checking an double checking on all the components of the remote control of my control room unit i discovered the problem of stability of my unit :
The problem is the temperature of the OS eprom , if is cold the encoder gain only and when is reach the zero on the display stop working
if you put the soldering iron on the eprom for 2 seconds the unit start working perfectly
I don't know how to solve this problem
If you have any idea let me know
Thank you all in advance
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: 100WChris on December 10, 2013, 04:12:43 PM
Just one thought: i solved some malfunctions of my CRM simply by pressing the Ics into their sockets. Some of the ICs on the bottom pcb side can slip out a little over the time, when you use a desktop case (like me)...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on December 13, 2013, 04:27:57 AM
@JAkob
do you have any news about the software of the eeprom of the control room ?

@ramshackles
the Eeprom is PIC18F4620 this one
http://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/Devices.aspx?dDocName=en010304

and After checking an double checking on all the components of the remote control of my control room unit i noticed that
the problem is the temperature , if the unit is cold the the encoder gain only and when you reach the zero on the display stop working
but if you send hot air for 10 seconds on the back of the remote control (with an hot air gun) the unit start working perfectly !!
I don't know how to solve this problem
If you have any idea let me know




It's read protected afaik.

A friend of mine ended up ditching the control board, and setting up an arduino or similar for directly controlling the relay board from computer.

I'll see if he can be persuaded to share the needed code

Jakob E.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: damianschwartz on December 28, 2013, 01:17:12 PM
Hello guys, is it still be possible to buy the controller as a kit? or the pcb´s?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on December 30, 2013, 03:06:24 AM
@damianschwartz

the pcb/kit you get from member igor but he is out of buissnes .... and we have build problems now with out igor...!
igor send a lot of kit's without the software eprom....
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on December 30, 2013, 05:27:48 PM
Hi Guys ,
Problem finally solved !!
Today after reading again al the post of this thread i found the solution to my problem, i changed the two resistors R13 and R14 from 4k7 to 1K and now all is working flawlessly !!
Thank you all for support !!
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 30, 2013, 07:31:54 PM
Hi Guys ,
Problem finally solved !!
Today after reading again al the post of this thread i found the solution to my problem, i changed the two resistors R13 and R14 from 4k7 to 1K and now all is working flawlessly !!
Thank you all for support !!
Fabio
Congrats :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on January 02, 2014, 12:22:31 PM
Et Voilà !! This is the unit with the new Summing Mixer and the Dual LA-4 work in progress .
Thank you all for the huge support !!
Fabio
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on January 02, 2014, 12:25:47 PM
Another Picture .
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: djfatum on January 07, 2014, 04:41:37 PM
hi where can I buy this kit and what is the cost of shipping to Polish
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: ramshackles on January 08, 2014, 12:10:39 PM
It is no longer for sale Im afraid
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on January 20, 2014, 03:58:01 PM
any one knows somting about the 3f1d pushbutton's... order number,datasheet or shop .... in my kit they are not ink....
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Audioman on January 20, 2014, 04:08:45 PM
the pushbuttons : http://it.farnell.com/multimec/3ftl600/switch-body-led-blue/dp/1132954?Ntt=1132954
the caps of the pushbuttons : http://it.farnell.com/multimec/1e091/cap-round-lens-black/dp/1132905?Ntt=1132905
these are the italian link of farnell site take the farnell code and switch the web site on your language
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: AudioCommand on January 20, 2014, 04:13:03 PM
many thank's
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: keeeth on January 29, 2014, 01:57:56 PM
i think i may have damaged my crm by accident. i have my remote mounted in my desk but the pcb is open on the underside of it and in moving some stuff around i think the small pcb which is connected to the vga cable has touched something on the main pcb for the remote and shorted something. I certainly heard some relays click.

Now the unit doesn’t pass any audio. The encoder doesn’t make any relays click [it does show the numbers on the screen changing though] The unit is stuck on input 1 and output 1. I can’t select anything else except mono and dim which click sporadically

There is definitely audio going in as I have meters on the inputs which are showing signal

I should mention that i didn’t build the unit and I don’t really know much about electronics and I had the unit modified to give 3 inputs and 4 outputs. It’s documented in this thread if anyone is wondering what that entails.

I’ve tried resetting the unit as per the instructions Igor explained earlier in the thread. But when I power it up with trim pressed it will go to “stu” but as soon as i release it the screen says cut. Further than that it just does exactly as before, where I can’t press anything.

I worry that I've damaged the micro controller. Is there anyway to get a new one?

Can anybody think of anything else it might be?

Cheers
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: EvilGenius on April 29, 2014, 06:55:31 AM
Hey guys, i too wanted to start this build but seeing that Igor is not around anymore makes this a lot more difficult

I think moving forward Arduino is a good option to use as a controller i.e. basically build a new control unit
as long as we have a list of the necessary functions and how they control the hardware then all is not lost we can maybe come up
with another unit based on the Arduino especially if Gyraf can help us out with that code

other than schematic are there any PCB trace documents around?

I have layout, bom, and schematic for this but it would make life a whole lot easier if the traces were available

We'll have to get our thinking caps on from here  :o
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on April 29, 2014, 01:13:07 PM
Hi. I think that pcb files are possible. Do u need both boards or just audio?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: EvilGenius on April 29, 2014, 07:26:12 PM
Hey Moby thanks for the reply, I think i would just need the audio board traces. Having the controller board file(s) also would help me understand the control unit better, it may take some time but i would like to maybe create some other way of controlling the unit with arduino and later maybe a new controller circuit and make it available to the community.

My best friends are all programmers so i believe it is very doable via arduino. However it probably won't be easy but i'm sure with time we'll get something going! :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on April 30, 2014, 09:17:15 AM
Hey Moby thanks for the reply, I think i would just need the audio board traces. Having the controller board file(s) also would help me understand the control unit better, it may take some time but i would like to maybe create some other way of controlling the unit with arduino and later maybe a new controller circuit and make it available to the community.

My best friends are all programmers so i believe it is very doable via arduino. However it probably won't be easy but i'm sure with time we'll get something going! :)
Hi, drop me the mail so we can figure out something ;)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on May 06, 2014, 09:33:47 AM
Did anyone found out these?

http://www.amb.org/audio/lcduino1/ (http://www.amb.org/audio/lcduino1/)

http://www.amb.org/audio/delta2/ (http://www.amb.org/audio/delta2/)

http://www.amb.org/audio/delta1/ (http://www.amb.org/audio/delta1/)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: petermontg on July 30, 2014, 03:47:57 PM
Did anyone found out these?

http://www.amb.org/audio/lcduino1/ (http://www.amb.org/audio/lcduino1/)

http://www.amb.org/audio/delta2/ (http://www.amb.org/audio/delta2/)

http://www.amb.org/audio/delta1/ (http://www.amb.org/audio/delta1/)

I might give those a go and see how I get along.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on December 18, 2014, 07:21:59 PM
T hanks to our friend Silvas we finally have a hex file :) check here:
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=55264.msg740118#msg740118
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on April 20, 2015, 08:29:13 AM

Encoder: for very reliable, un-kill-able thing, check HRPG-AD16.
I saw them used on evilbay for cheap. Need more info - feel free to ask.
ALPS is good enough, but I replaced them after some thinking.
We use HRPG-AD16 in DB Studios CRM on SSL 4k console (we added surround - 3 kits like yours from same control) and at La-Vi console.


Hi everybody!
So I need to replace my encoder after long time-used.  ;D

So this one is the right?

http://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Avago-Technologies/HRPG-AD1656F/?qs=YDL0qNrpDT7Tpr02PuxXGw%3D%3D (http://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Avago-Technologies/HRPG-AD1656F/?qs=YDL0qNrpDT7Tpr02PuxXGw%3D%3D)

and can someone please share with me how do I connect it to the PCB? Are there any modifications needed? In the specs I see that it has 5 pins, not 3 or is it just a wrong picture in the specs?

And does it fit, as it is higher than the ALPS...

Lots of questions for such a tiny issue... lol

Thanks in advance! Fredi

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 22, 2015, 03:09:18 PM

Encoder: for very reliable, un-kill-able thing, check HRPG-AD16.
I saw them used on evilbay for cheap. Need more info - feel free to ask.
ALPS is good enough, but I replaced them after some thinking.
We use HRPG-AD16 in DB Studios CRM on SSL 4k console (we added surround - 3 kits like yours from same control) and at La-Vi console.


Hi everybody!
So I need to replace my encoder after long time-used.  ;D

So this one is the right?

http://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Avago-Technologies/HRPG-AD1656F/?qs=YDL0qNrpDT7Tpr02PuxXGw%3D%3D (http://www.mouser.de/ProductDetail/Avago-Technologies/HRPG-AD1656F/?qs=YDL0qNrpDT7Tpr02PuxXGw%3D%3D)

and can someone please share with me how do I connect it to the PCB? Are there any modifications needed? In the specs I see that it has 5 pins, not 3 or is it just a wrong picture in the specs?

And does it fit, as it is higher than the ALPS...

Lots of questions for such a tiny issue... lol

Thanks in advance! Fredi

I haven't done this, but I too am considering a new encoder. Depends how much space you have between the pcb and your faceplate. I'm using 10mm standoffs and the height of the body of this Avago encoder is 11.4mm. It'd be a tight fit for sure. I'd start to worry the push buttons would be then sunk in too low. I do like that the Avago has more shaft options though. It has 4 corner mounts and the pcb is looking for 2 side mounts - but that probably wouldn't matter as it's mounted o the faceplate with a nut at the shaft.

UPDATE:

I just bought the ribboned version here http://www.ebay.com/itm/390121123473

I'll let you know how it works out for me (or not). Thinking if it's a tight fit, I might dismantle the encoder and pull the ribbon out from under the body (to gain free up another 1mm of space). TBD...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on May 23, 2015, 07:08:04 AM
Thanks a lot!  :)

So mine is soldered direct to the  PCB such as the pushbuttons. 10mm stand - offs also. 3mm faceplate. So my guess is it won't fit.

Are there any good encoders left, except the ALPS?

Thanks for letting me know about your proceed.  ;D

Cheers, Fredi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 29, 2015, 09:47:41 PM
Hey Fredi,

So I received that HRPG encoder. Seems it will fit if I pull the ribbon wire out from underneath - it's body is just about 10mm in height. However... I soldered it in using the corresponding B/C/A pins, but it is non-responsive. I assume it has something to do with the 2 leftover wires (1 ground and 1 shield). I'm not sure where these would go since there is only a 'DGND' (digital ground) on the controller board.  When I power up, the display reads "CUT" and makes no relay noise when turned. Every other function (buttons) work fine and I hear relays doing their thing. I tried a system reset and made no difference. I'm not savvy enough to know where to connect these grounds, without fearing that I might fry something.

UPDATE:

Someone attempted this replacement earlier in the thread - had similar issues but apparently figured it out:
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30914.msg644593#msg644593
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: jimkeaney on May 31, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
So the one thing Skidmorebay didn't mention with his success to wiring the Avago encoder was that the blue "ground" wire does need to be attached. Maybe that's assumed, but I was being cautious. Anyhow, I attached it on the point labeled -12V and I'm feeding the center pin 5v from the left side of R15... now everything works as it should. Not sure if the wire labeled "Shield" needs to go to ground as well, but for now, I'm leaving it off. The model encoder I bought was this one found on ebay  HRPG-AD16 #16C http://www.ebay.com/itm/390121123473?rmvSB=true  As you can see (in my attachment) I removed the metal bracket and moved the ribbon cable out from underneath. It is now exactly 10mm in height. Juuust fits  ;D

(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10686889_859951747425836_532425023953672940_n.jpg?oh=99b222f7a19a5bf0687a6ef3e42b90d9&oe=55FBA9C6)  ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 04, 2016, 09:24:22 AM
Hi everybody. I recently had o change the rotary pot. It is working fine but the input and the output select are not doing anything. Checked solderpoints... all seem to be fine. Any ideas? Thy a lot!  :(

Edit: The unit is passing audio and the attenuation is also working. Mono  and talkback are also functional. Only the input/output-selction doesn't.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 04, 2016, 10:00:27 AM
Rotary pot=Encoder? If yes it cant be directly connected with select buttons. Check the solders at  sub-d or maybe u have some solder dropped on pcb
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 04, 2016, 10:28:38 AM
Yes, of course, encoder. So it can be that there is a connection between the encoder and the select buttons? Would this result in dysfunctionality?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 04, 2016, 10:35:25 AM
Yes, of course, encoder. So it can be that there is a connection between the encoder and the select buttons? Would this result in dysfunctionality?
i really doubt. Encoder  just adds up/down info to the Pic
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 04, 2016, 11:18:24 AM
Yes, of course, encoder. So it can be that there is a connection between the encoder and the select buttons? Would this result in dysfunctionality?
i really doubt. Encoder  just adds up/down info to the Pic

Thanx for the quick answer!!

I checked and resoldered them.. no change. So when I switch on the CRM level, mono, TB are working fine. SPK 1 /Input 1 passing audio but none of them switchable... I did a quick vid:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jthrrmt0crtafow/2016-01-04%2016.59.09.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jthrrmt0crtafow/2016-01-04%2016.59.09.mov?dl=0)

Can it be that the micro controller is gone?

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 04, 2016, 03:13:18 PM
Now it went even worse. It fires up, goes to saved state (CUT + INPUT 1) and from there nothing is happening anymore.

If the EPROM goes to saved state, does that mean that it is working or can it be that it is gone?

Thanx in advance for helping out... I´m in real trouble as this is the heart of the studio... :-[
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 04, 2016, 03:26:26 PM
Now it went even worse. It fires up, goes to saved state (CUT + INPUT 1) and from there nothing is happening anymore.

If the EPROM goes to saved state, does that mean that it is working or can it be that it is gone?

Thanx in advance for helping out... I´m in real trouble as this is the heart of the studio... :-[

I don't know about your issue, but when I had a failed EPROM, the LED screen and buttons were completely dead - nothing lit up at all.

One other thing you may not already have seen - the instructions from Igor on how to reset the EPROM.  They are in this post :

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30914.msg510069#msg510069

I guess it's worth a try just to see if the behaviour of your unit changes.

Also, I have a copy of the hex code to flash a new EPROM if you need it.  I have never tried it, but it is the one supplied by Silvas a few pages ago...

Good luck...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 04, 2016, 03:32:35 PM
Hi Rob!
Thanx for responding!!
That´s what I did. (Reset the EPROM). It did not change the behavior. Then I resoldered a few points, (for example RN2). Now it is getting into CUT+IN1, as described and then nothing is working. Not the Encoder nor any switch responds.

Seems like there is something missing on the board. The voltage is as it should (12V and the regulator is on 5V)...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 04, 2016, 03:40:26 PM
If you haven't seen it already, but there's a small amount of additional troubleshooting info which Igor provided to me when I was trying to fault find my CRM. 

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30914.msg520226#msg520226

This was the info which enabled Igor to tell the EPROM was dead.  Perhaps it'll help you...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 04, 2016, 04:00:59 PM
If you haven't seen it already, but there's a small amount of additional troubleshooting info which Igor provided to me when I was trying to fault find my CRM. 

http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=30914.msg520226#msg520226

This was the info which enabled Igor to tell the EPROM was dead.  Perhaps it'll help you...

I check it now. THX a lot!!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 04, 2016, 07:55:29 PM
@Janzoulou.  has your CRM ever worked correctly? Sorry I missed that point?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 05, 2016, 05:07:06 AM
@Janzoulou.  has your CRM ever worked correctly? Sorry I missed that point?

:-) Yes since 3 years now. In perfect manners, day by day. Then the encoder died (it stopped  moving anti-clockwise, a mechanical fault)

I have checked the 5V on the EPROM and they are ok. Unfortunately i don't have a scope, so I can't check the pulses. But somehow I got a feeling that the pull-ups (RN2) are faulty. I will replace them with this:

https://www.conrad.de/de/widerstandsnetzwerk-47-k-sip-81-0125-w-1-st-414271.html (https://www.conrad.de/de/widerstandsnetzwerk-47-k-sip-81-0125-w-1-st-414271.html)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 05, 2016, 06:17:15 AM
You dont have to use sip resistors. You can replace it with the group of 4k7's. Just like Igor did on his protorype
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 05, 2016, 06:21:17 AM
I know. It´s just laziness and I anyway have to go there...  :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 05, 2016, 06:27:27 AM
Here is the pic. I still can't believe it's broken PIC.  As someone mentioned before, dead PIC will cause totally wrong behaviour or no response at all.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 05, 2016, 07:36:39 AM
Here is the pic. I still can't believe it's broken PIC.  As someone mentioned before, dead PIC will cause totally wrong behaviour or no response at all.

Me to. And this is how I had installed them.

What is strange is the fact that it only is the upper switches (In-1-4 + Mon1-3).
All the other ones were working (Trim, mono, dim,TB)

Are there any special parts related only to these switches?

Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 05, 2016, 08:43:24 AM
Ok, SIP changed same behavior:

Powers up into CUT and from there nothing works, no response at all.

EDIT:

to describe better: When powering up the LED´s are shortly showing U20 (Version 2.0) and then the nit switches into CUT and IN2. then it is not responding at all. Does that mean the EPROM is still there or can it be it is gone?
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on January 07, 2016, 11:42:16 AM
SOLVED

It was the PIC. Thanx mates, for helping out!

So it is official: the hex-file does work and, if the PIC is loading the software but freezing it CAN be that the PIC is gone.

For anybody interested, here in Berlin there is a service, burning HEX-files into PIC´s for 5€.
I used this PIC http://www.distrelec.de/de/mikrocontroller-bit-dil-40-microchip-pic18f4620/p/17379392?wt_ga=18078709831_69647412511&wt_kw=18078709831_pic18f4620&gclid=COyAtdWBkcoCFSsOwwodhVQOzA (http://www.distrelec.de/de/mikrocontroller-bit-dil-40-microchip-pic18f4620/p/17379392?wt_ga=18078709831_69647412511&wt_kw=18078709831_pic18f4620&gclid=COyAtdWBkcoCFSsOwwodhVQOzA)

and they did burn it for me:

http://www.segor.de/#/dienstleistungen/16-Programmierservice/ (http://www.segor.de/#/dienstleistungen/16-Programmierservice/)

Now it would be amazing to extend the functionality to be able using DIM as real CUT... any ideas? LOL

Glad that I can go back to work...

 8) ;D
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Moby on January 07, 2016, 11:52:14 AM
Great! I learned something new :)
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: rob_gould on January 07, 2016, 12:56:11 PM
Great news to hear it's solved!

And very reassuring to know that the code works too...
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on August 11, 2016, 12:20:32 PM
I posted this already in The TB-combiner - Thread. But maybe here are more watching...?

Hey there, if by any chance, someone can help:

I need to connect two extra TB-mics for 2 recording rooms... (ADR session with Cutter in the recording room)

So I got an http://www.apart-audio.com/Category/Details5?cat2=APART&cat3=40.MICROPHONES&cat4=3010_ALL_CALL&cat5=3010_ALL_CALL&productcode=MICPAT-D   "Apart MICPAT -D "which has a parallel switch to send a DC (eg 5v).

Actually I only need the information where to apply 5V or 12V to toggle DIM

Cheers to you all! Fredi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on August 14, 2016, 07:39:35 AM
Ok.. I´ll try it again..

Does anybody know if there is a way to engage DIM on the CRM from external? I am reading the schematics and can't find a solution... please.  :'(
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: moamps on August 14, 2016, 05:49:55 PM
I am reading the schematics and can't find a solution...
Could you post the schematic here? Or link to it.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Janzoulou on August 18, 2016, 04:46:13 AM
I am reading the schematics and can't find a solution...
Could you post the schematic here? Or link to it.

Hi Moamps! Thanks for your answer!! The links are in the beginning of the thread. But I already came to a different solution.

for everybody interested, I decided to use a HWBP pcb from Volker to get an external DIM - control for the Main Output on my CRM. And there comes up another solution: CUT.  :) Often asked for and I think this is the best way, doing it. Therefore I am glad about the decision putting the audio - & control - pcb into the same housing. Adding 4 HWBP and a switch for CUT into the front panel - done! Cheers, Fredi
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: solderboy on August 20, 2016, 08:30:54 PM
Owns someone still the schematics?

Thank you!
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: 100WChris on September 10, 2016, 10:27:01 AM
Quote
Owns someone still the schematics?
Schems are in the first post…
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on April 09, 2017, 12:41:56 PM
Since I know Igor isn't listening, can anyone tell me -

I want to hook up a subwoofer. I'm going to use the mono LFE channel on the sub, since the sub's left and right inputs are already being used by the Monitor 1 pair of speakers, and I want to be able switch the sub in and out when using my NS10's which are hooked up to Monitor 2.
SO, can I just combine the SUB L and SUB R outputs on one connector, or do I need do do something to get the combined level of the two sub outputs down by 3db to suit the pan law, etc?
thanks.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: 100WChris on April 13, 2017, 03:23:49 PM
Hi skidmorebay,
im not sure if i understand your problem, but you can trim every in- and output of your CRM  :)
Igor explained this in Reply 208 on page 11 of this thread.
Chris
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Gilbert on July 31, 2017, 05:20:13 PM
Finished building a kit that was partially stuffed by another member.  I'm getting a bad ground hum on my left side only. Tried removing the VGA pin 4 connection described earlier in the thread figuring it would help, but no such luck.  For whatever reason in the 0 and -32 db attenuation position there is no hum.  Sounds great in those two positions, such a tease! thanks for any help on the issue.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on July 31, 2017, 07:22:04 PM
I would probably check all of the external cabling and connectors first. Then check that the signal is being attenuated correctly even when the hum is present (which would mean the relays are functioning correctly and the resistors are properly in-circuit). Something like a solder bridge on the db25 pins on the pcb could be an issue. 
Good luck. Mine has been (knock on wood) reliable for several years.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: Gilbert on July 31, 2017, 08:54:32 PM
Thanks for the quick reply! Surely  something simple.. usually is aghh
I checked the external connections on the dsub cables and made sure of no soldier bridges anywhere on the pcb dsub in/out

It's attenuating the signal, and as the signal goes down the hum stays the same.  This is the case no matter what input or output I'm on and always just the left.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on August 01, 2017, 10:16:28 AM
Another thing would be to swap the left and right inputs at your interface and see if the hum stays in the left channel. If the hum moves to the other speaker, then it's coming from "upstream" of the CRM.
Then  swap the outputs at the monitors. If the hum doesn't move then it is downstream of the CRM.

Also, you can try plugging your interface into different inputs on the CRM. If the noise exists on Input 1 but not Input 2 that would at least isolate it to the connector. Ditto for the outputs.

I've had some luck with other processors from taking a jumper to chassis ground and touching it to various grounds on the pcb until something diminishes the noise.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: boji on September 09, 2017, 09:58:16 PM
Hello All!

Does anyone have copies to the Bom and build photos / links that Igor once posted concerning this relay driven attenuator build?  Most of the links are broken since it's such an old project.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as I have most of the parts but no build reference!

By the way, if someone can send me what he initially posted,  I'll reup them to my imgur account and try to get the main links fixed.

Thank you in advance!    ;D
-Boji
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: skidmorebay on September 10, 2017, 07:09:43 PM
Here's a copy of Igor's build folder:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lrmwwwnopnd4y9p/AABq-rTnpe1I2P2V0-fz3pGra?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lrmwwwnopnd4y9p/AABq-rTnpe1I2P2V0-fz3pGra?dl=0)

It would be best to move it to a safer location. No guarantee my Dropbox will be the same a year from now.

FYI, my CRM has been going strong since 2012. I recently bought a bunch of JLM Audio's "Regurgitators" to provide buffers for the input and output:
https://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/regurgitator-pcb-8pak.html (https://www.jlmaudio.com/shop/regurgitator-pcb-8pak.html)
But, I probably won't get around to using them, since I recently got a Crookwood monitor controller as part of one of their consoles. I wanted to be sure that what I was hearing wouldn't be modified by the loading of my DA converter and speaker amp. The JLM circuit is supposed to offer really low distortion specs at unity gain.
Title: Re: PASSIVE RELAY-BASED CONTROLL ROOM KITS BUILD/SUPPORT TREAD
Post by: niconeemis on October 14, 2020, 11:47:39 AM
Hello guys ! i'm selling my igor passive monitoring controller. full working order. 400€. PM me if interested.