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Project Specific Discussions => Mixers/Monitoring Systems => Topic started by: bieckmusic on February 04, 2015, 10:25:59 PM

Title: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 04, 2015, 10:25:59 PM
Hi,

I recently discovered an Altec 250su in an old abandoned church.  It's a 10 channel stereo tube console.  I bought it for use in my studio.   Anyone have any experience with one.  I did not even fire it up yet, since it hasen't been used since the early 70s I am afraid of blowing something up.  Until I at least check the powersupply voltages, etc...

I imagine I'll need to replace lots of caps and there will be some issues that crop up along the way...  though it physically looks like its in perfect shape.

best!
Greg
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on February 04, 2015, 10:44:29 PM
Yes, some, more later.....

Get the documents.

What modules and PSU? 

Don't fire up anything more than individual modules one at a time on a different variable PSU and confirm/repair one at a time before powering the whole thing.  The whole thing at one time would be a form of purposeful insanity, unless you just like standing around with a fire extinguisher. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 05, 2015, 12:58:27 PM
Ha, absolutely, I told them they weren't allowed to plug it in.  It's ok to check voltages on the powersupply output without having it connected to the console, to make sure that is working? 

The first step is getting it shipped to Nashville.  Just produced a record for someone sponsored by TA, so I think I can get free shipping.  woo-hoo

I won't move any tubes because they probably biased for the individual modules.

It looks exactly like this in this cool little brocure, but I haven't yet confirmed the preamp/lineamp modules and quantity. 

http://www.bayoucables.com/altec/Altec-250SU-Promo-Man.pdf
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on February 05, 2015, 01:48:55 PM
I wouldn't put full power on that PSU without a load, it is meant to eat a lot of current and voltages will be very far off. 

There is no tube biasing; it's cathode bias. 

These consoles were frequently retrofitted with solid state 9475A modules, and the PSU changed to match. 

Assuming you know it's still tube based, there could be anywhere from 5 to 13 amplifier modules and/or a mix of utility trays with bridging transformers. 

These consoles have fairly flimsy metalwork.  If at all possible, it's worth the trip to pick it up.  Otherwise a full crating with heavy internal foam supports, all modules removed and packed separately.   
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 10, 2015, 02:17:59 PM
hi Emrr,

here's a photo of the guts.  looks like it has 8 preamp modules and some line imput interfaces??  I can't tell if all of the modules for the mixer are installed, looks like something is missing??

lots of nice tubes and transformers tucked in there....  so pretty   :) :)

Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 10, 2015, 02:33:01 PM
here's a closeup of the 458a modules there are a total of 9
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 10, 2015, 02:35:07 PM
there are two 459a modules in the left prog and right prog slots

Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 10, 2015, 02:59:33 PM
here's the front, it's in pretty nice physical condition.  I haven't bought it yet, just wanted to make sure it was worth the trouble...  open to anyone's opinion.  I have some tube console emulator plug-ins and am not super impressed with those.

I'm looking for some nice tube pre's and a sub-mixer with some nice tube coloration...

Looks like someone removed the center channel amplifiers...  not sure why I would ever use those.

I hear they sound pretty good, VK sold one for around $9k.  I wonder how hard it would be to add direct outs to it, that would be necessary for tracking...hopefully it would interface with my Avid HD I/O properly.

anyway, this seems like a cool project.  Would love to build some RuffRecords helios eq's to go along with this   :) 

thoughts??
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: ruffrecords on February 10, 2015, 06:16:52 PM
anyway, this seems like a cool project.  Would love to build some RuffRecords helios eq's to go along with this   :) 

thoughts??

Isn't strange how everything is connected. I am fascinated by old tube mixers. Seeing this thread I downloaded a brochure for this mixer. I was particularly taken by the the heater power supply which creates  13 amps of roughly smoothed 6.3 volts; so much so I tried ac heaters on my Eurochannel mic pre design and it worked extremely well.  One reason I was interested in ac heaters was because it would allow more design flexibility. Someone had asked if it would be possible to do one of my EQ boards with a built in gain make up amp . It only needs one tube and the best one to use only has a 6.3V heater. And here you are thinking of adding my EQ to the mixer that started it all.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 10, 2015, 10:07:49 PM
thanks Ian, things are coming full circle!!  I should have the console here next week... have to say I'm very excited even though it could be months before I hear any audio.


Those peerless transformers look very cool...

best!
Greg
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on February 10, 2015, 11:11:54 PM
Thought is you better hurry up and seal the deal, before it's gone.  Or pass the info on to me!  This is not a time to kick tires unless the asking price is really high.  Ask the hard questions:  can they ohm out all the transformers and confirm they are good?  If not, price should reflect the risk you are assuming.  With that many modules, entirely likely there may be a bad one, and spares are unobtainium.  Amp modules are fairly hard to find at any price if you go looking. 

It probably never came with the center channel amplifiers.  The module count was optional, the tray count was standard.  Reread the info you linked 4 times through. 

Sounds like you will need to pay a knowledgable vintage tube console tech to walk you through the options with this.  It'll be money well spent.  And you need a manual of course!   The audio cyclopedia 2nd ed. has a flow chart. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: ruffrecords on February 11, 2015, 06:34:05 AM
thanks Ian, things are coming full circle!!  I should have the console here next week... have to say I'm very excited even though it could be months before I hear any audio.


Those peerless transformers look very cool...

best!
Greg

I think you are very lucky. There are no similar consoles in the UK. I am envious!!

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on February 12, 2015, 12:12:01 PM
The Altec 250's sound great.  From 60s capital records type hi-fi, to blown out garage rock. I've restored and modded two of these guys. Looks like yours is pretty loaded, even has the tube check meter in the back.

The mix bus uses five amplifiers for two stages of make up gain. L, C, and R each get their own 458 booster amp. The "C"  458 then gets split by a resistive"splitting pad" and sent back to the inputs of the L and R boosters.  The LR boosters then get fed to attenuators and to the 459 program amp. Ridiculous amounts of cool gain staging, a little over 100db to play with.  You need the center 458 to get true LCR mixing, without it it's just LR. Pretty magical hearing a microphone through three tube amplifiers...

The 458mic pres are excellent, super hi-fi, langevin-esque.  Very simple design, only a few electrolytics and resistors in each one to check/replace. The 459s are almost as simple, two caps and some resistors in the signal path, few electrolytics.

Looks like you have a few of the utility trays also, these allow you to bring in line levels devices, necessary if you want to actually "mix" on these. You can find original 15095 transformers and make these. I swap modules on mine all the time...

I would recommend replacing all the electrolytics, in both the modules and the power supply, they weren't meant to last 50 years. Also check all the high voltage wiring across the back, had to totally replace all of it on one of them.

As far as mods, They come with insert points on the back that are jumpered. Points are between the preamp outs and the front davens, ins and outs of the LCR boosters, and ins and outs of the Program amps. You can come right off the insert for direct outs or after the Davens for final gain control.  After the Davens, you have to do it with a terminated switch to keep the the passive mix buss happy.

Two minty restored versions of these recently sold for 26k and 28k respectively...
Good score...



Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 13, 2015, 11:48:33 PM
thanks so much for the great information.  I will have the console by the end of next week I'm told. 

First off, I need to find a schematic.  Does anyone have one.  The console ad has schematics for the pre amps  but a console and power supply schematic I can't find?

and thanks for the Davens reference.  I looked it up, and what we call a fader they called a Davens knob.  how interesting!! 

 :)
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: ruffrecords on February 14, 2015, 06:34:11 AM
Here is the PSU schematic:

http://www.benmook.com/tech/documents/Schematics%202/Schematics%201/Altec535Aps.pdf (http://www.benmook.com/tech/documents/Schematics%202/Schematics%201/Altec535Aps.pdf)

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 16, 2015, 11:02:28 PM
it's here!!  arrived safely...

got the power supply schematic, it's in really nice shape, been locked in church office for 45 years.  now where to begin?  I need to take a look at the power supply, it's got a calibration pot for 6.3 volts.  I'll need that to work properly before anything else can happen...

exciting times,
Greg
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on February 17, 2015, 12:48:30 PM
I'll PM you a scan of the original manual. The 6.3 switch is for loading the DC filament supply when the board isn't fully loaded with with modules, the B+ self regulates. I copied this in the power supply for our modular preamps. You can check out some pics of one I restored on our instagram and twitter.

http://instagram.com/coil_audio/ (http://instagram.com/coil_audio/)
https://twitter.com/coilaudio (https://twitter.com/coilaudio)

Do be careful, there are lethal voltage inside the power supply and console.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 17, 2015, 02:00:18 PM
great, thanks for that!!!

yes, is it ok to power up the powersupply with nothing connected?
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on February 17, 2015, 02:15:10 PM
It is OK to power up without any load. Usually a good idea to use an external power supply to slowly reform all the caps if your not going to replace them, or at  least use a variac to bring up the supply slowly.  Failure at lower voltages is better than a massive failure at full/high voltages.

Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on February 17, 2015, 02:17:46 PM
Variac or lightbulb limiter method a very good idea.     Monitor those caps for heat during/after re-form too, if they are warm to the touch after being brought up, they should be replaced.   
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 18, 2015, 10:26:16 PM
thanks for the tip, don't have a variac but do have a light dimmer.  hopefully will keep the cap explosions down to a minimum.  ha

btw coilaudio your work is really amazing, I checked out your websites, holy cow!!!!  :) :)
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on February 19, 2015, 04:07:33 PM
This is a great time to buy your first variac.  Very minimal cost given what you are taking on. 

I've a lot of related parts, should you find you need anything.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 19, 2015, 08:29:41 PM
do you think something like this will be good enough??

I'd love to use it on guitar amps too, that's the new (old) cool thing in town!! ha

Greg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/251826120718?lpid=82&chn=ps
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 25, 2015, 09:45:30 PM
variac on the way!!  thanks for the suggestion, I can see how this can be useful for a lot of things.   :)

If I want to mix on my 250su, and want to run DAW out +4 into my 458a modules couldn't I insert a passive direct box transformer to bring down the DAW level to mic level into the 458a?



Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on February 25, 2015, 10:36:41 PM
Thanks for the kind words Greg, always preaching the tube gospel...

For bringing in line level you need a balanced line "U-pad".  2x 10k resistors on the sides with a 250ohm resistor bridging. Balanced line input goes to the two 10k resistors, and balanced output off the 250 ohm. This provides impedance matching and a 40db pad. This way the line input side sees around 22k and the mic pre sees 250ohm. Found this "tip" in an old RCA manual from the 50s. I built a bunch of these onto empty patch bay jacks so I can use all my pres as line amps when mixing. I've also built custom boxes for clients that have mic and line pads on a rotary switch.

or you can buy one in a shiny red box from DW Fearn for $160...

You can also skip the preamp and use your "utility trays", they're made for bridging a line input to the mix bus. Then it's just a 10k to 600ohm transformer and straight to the daven. We make an exact clone of those peerless 15095 transformers. It's a different cleaner sound going this route, but less noise than running through pres.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on February 25, 2015, 11:03:38 PM
Awesome, thanks again! 

I found this cool link about u-pads...  cool idea about putting them into a patch bay.  I'm going to probably do the same and bring up all the inputs and insert points and outputs on a patch bay for easy access...

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on March 04, 2015, 10:39:07 PM
Well, I got my vari-ac hooked up.  And started real slowly adding power.  The console started smelling bad, so at around 35-40% power I pulled out the modules and one of  the electrolytic can casp was hot and the modules transformer was pretty warm.   I don't think audio transformers should ever be warm so I pulled that module.

I'm going to do some double checking of things before I try adding the power again...  Could be all the dust getting hot on the tubes, but I never saw a tube even glowing, don;t think I got enough power going...  Looks like the heater voltage only got up to around 3v.  I never got above 50%.  My ampmeter says the powersupply was around .3 amp on one rectifier and .2 amp on the other compared to ground.  the tube tester needle would go up about 25% on all the modules so electrons are flowing. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on March 04, 2015, 11:06:35 PM
Heat bad.  Warm transformer is a very bad sign.  Confirm DC resistance of output transformer primary before going further with that module. 

Dust bad, good friend of heat.  Really!!?  You didn't even clean it and you powered it up?!

YOU REALLY DON'T WANT TO TEST MORE THAN ONE MODULE AT A TIME.

LONG BEFORE YOU TRY TESTING THE WHOLE CONSOLE. 

REPAIR ONE AT A TIME, THEN POWER THE WHOLE THING AS IF IT STILL HASN'T BEEN TESTED. 

You can hardly see these glow if I recall correctly; anyway that should never be a prime indicator if you aren't familiar with the tube type. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: shabtek on March 05, 2015, 10:19:51 AM
 a known good heater voltage (auxiliary power supply)
And ammeters inserted on power feeds to monitor current draw--before b+ is ever brought up would not be a bad practice
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on March 05, 2015, 02:36:59 PM
well, thank you for the feedback.  It was definitely not a great idea to start powering everything up.   :-\ :-\

The vari-ac from ebay is not working correctly and creating the horrible smell with nothing plugged into it.  So I'm sending it back. 

Looking for a small bench rig to power up modules.  I have an Ian Bell HT Power Supply Design card.

Looking at the web site, with the correct transformer, that looks like it might be able to supply the + - 275 volts DC at 40ma?

The schematic for the 459a amplifier requires a 6.3V DC however the HT Power Supply provides 6.3V Ac?  Can the 459A heaters work off 6.3 V ac or dc?? 

thanks!! Greg
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on March 05, 2015, 02:48:21 PM
They are wired for DC specifically, so there's no care taken for quiet AC usage, but you can at least test with AC filaments.  Good luck. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on March 05, 2015, 04:05:52 PM
Seems, I have two different types of 458a amplifier.  Some of them have a small pcb board mounted underneath the output transformer with 2 6.49 k resistors a few other allen bradley resistors an and a sprague cap on it.  Some of the amps are identical but missing this small circuit pcb board all together???  Seems like these parts are not on the alter 458a schematic.

 :) Greg



Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on March 05, 2015, 04:29:29 PM
That's a mod of some sort
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: ruffrecords on March 06, 2015, 04:07:54 AM
Looking for a small bench rig to power up modules.  I have an Ian Bell HT Power Supply Design card.

Looking at the web site, with the correct transformer, that looks like it might be able to supply the + - 275 volts DC at 40ma?

The schematic for the 459a amplifier requires a 6.3V DC however the HT Power Supply provides 6.3V Ac?  Can the 459A heaters work off 6.3 V ac or dc?? 

thanks!! Greg

My HT PCB can  certainly supply 275V dc at 40mA. With suitable resistor values it can supply up to 100mA if required.

The HT board does not supply any heater voltage. That you need to do separately, As others have said, use ac heaters for initial testing. Then ,when you get the original power supply working you can use that for the dc heaters. In fact the power supply is relatively simple so it should not be too hard to get going - you might need to simply replace all the electrolytics in it to have a working power supply.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on March 09, 2015, 02:45:32 PM
Heathkit makes great power supplies for bench top testing.  Check ebay, IP or PS series. They have regulated variable b+ up to 300v or 500v depending on model. They also have 6.3v and 12v for filaments. Plus they show current draw, which is great for trouble shooting.

Definitely replace all electrolytics, they were never intended to last this long. All the big caps in the power supply for sure. Mallory or cornell dubilier/CDE still make the big "computer Grade" cans. Might involve some rigging to get the replacement caps to fit in the same space... little glue, some mounting brackets...

Bring it up on its own/disconnected and make sure its all cool.  Before connecting it, check all the high voltage wiring in the frame and make sure all is well, no shorts, no "modifications", etc. Remove the bulbs from the meters or you'll see a short on the 6.3v.  Make sure and check across the entire back plane. The insulation here is usually dry/cracked. They used little pieces of electrical tape to cover the splice on the filament run...Had to redo all the wiring on one I restored.  Always important  to check anything that carries or distributes high voltage and current. You can then check the power supply attached to the frame and make sure the proper voltages are going only were they are supposed to on the rear module plugs...REMEMBER DEATH HANGS OUT AT THOSE PLUGS AND WITH THE POWER SUPPLY.

If the board and power supply are all good, you have a perfect test bed...

Recap all the modules, the large black 3 section is the only one in the 458. 459 also has two caps in the signal path that can be leaky. You can buy multi sections at antique electronics (pricey), or you can replace with three separate small ones underneath. You can leave and disconnect the big one on top. Definitely check all resistors  to make sure they're in tolerance. Check the modules one at a time, then slowly add them to the board to make sure all is well as you load the power supply. There are "insert sends" on the back plane they come directly off the module for checking em out.

I've definitely been  guilty of excitedly plugging some new vintage piece and firing it up immediately... But luck eventually wore out.


Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on March 10, 2015, 02:20:25 PM
thank you for the great post, I really love this forum!!

and I hear the high voltage warning, thanks for that

did you use old style wire to re-wire your board or modern mogami type??  My wiring harness look pretty good but I probably for safety's sake at least rewire the current carrying wiring...

thanks again!!!
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on March 10, 2015, 02:27:07 PM
Wire rated for the current demand. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on March 27, 2015, 03:43:46 PM
I believe it's 18awg rated for at least 300v (better if 600v) for the B+, and 12awg 300v for the filament. The filament run is mostly 12awg with small jumpers of around 18awg to each connector. The tube check run is 18awg/300-600v. Mogami/canare is typically for audio wiring. Wouldn't suggest rewiring the whole thing unless absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on April 14, 2015, 11:35:28 AM
Ok, so I built a test station.   :) :)

I found a lot of old audio test equipment for sale.

I got a Hickok Tube Tester, this thing's awesome.  Anyone in Nashville need tubes tested, come on...  Will take Girl Scout Thin Mints in exchange for tube testing.   ha
And an oscilloscope, an old signal tracer with a magic eye tube, and an ohm commander. 

The heath Kit ip-17 I got does perfect with the dc current.  But the ac 6.3v is coming out 7.3v.  Looks like it's a tap right off the transformer with no regulator on it.  Will 7.3 damage tubes? I've read that exposing the tubes to  too high a voltage really lowers it's life.  I could wire the 6.3 volts right off the Hickok tube tester, maybe??  I tried a light dimmer on the 7.3 and it didn't do the trick...

best!
Greg
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on April 14, 2015, 11:44:07 AM
Use some series resistance to lower the voltage.  The current supplied is much higher, therefore it swings high.  Something like a 10W 0.5 ohm could be a good starting position, as a guess. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: coilaudio on April 14, 2015, 02:19:53 PM
High filament voltage will definately shorten tube life, and eventually cook them totally.

Resistors work great. I normally put low ohm wire wound resistors in all AC filament supplies. They act as an inrush limiter to help prolong tube life. Also, most filament transformers expect to see 110-115 on the primaries. Especially  older ones. City utilities tend to run at 117 to as high as 126v to keep up with current demand. You can also use a variac to set it for perfect 6.3. It won't affect the b+.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on June 06, 2015, 12:13:58 AM
So I got sidetracked with projects but I'm back at the altec 250su project. 

I think I'l try the resistor route first...

so to  get my 6.3 volt ac supply down from 7.3 vac
do you think some resistors like this would work?

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Bourns/PWR220T-20-R500F/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMu61qfTUdNhG7dNYlvJJaAMdpsmg3LfNdQ%3d

they're 20watt, they didn't have 10watt on mouser...  that's just the maximum rating so usually going higher is no problem it's just going with a lower rating that can cause problems..?

wiring in series, does that mean wiring one resistor off each leg of the ac source (the 6.3 v ac supply of my heath kit power supply, to bring the 7.3down to 6.3.

thanks again!!
Greg  :) :)
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on November 14, 2018, 05:03:06 PM
So, I started this thread when I got a defunct Altec 250su some years ago...  Anyway, now it's working and it sounds amazing.  I haven't got everything sweetened up yet, need to build snakes and check some original wire routing. 

What an amazing sounding pre-amp!  so cool

Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: tony hunt on November 15, 2018, 01:44:49 AM
Thanks for the update, I had never seen this thread before. It is a good one.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on December 28, 2018, 10:27:20 AM
Next mission:

I need to add a pad to the altec 250su.  There is just way too much gain to use the mic preamps for drum tracking.

searching around I found this really cool page about pad circuits

http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/

So off to see what sounds good...     8)
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on December 28, 2018, 10:29:50 AM
Standard 20dB U pad.  I don’t understand why this wheel gets reinvented every 5 minutes. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on December 28, 2018, 11:18:18 AM
sorry I posted, I won't post anymore about it.  My Apologies.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on December 28, 2018, 11:25:06 AM
Well that’s an overreaction.   There’s a zillion threads here there and everywhere about mic pads.  Spend a while with them. 
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on December 28, 2018, 11:42:20 AM
Excuse me, I was just happily posting my progress.  I was sharing a link that I was thinking was helpful.  I didn't actually ask for help, especially for your chiming in.

I've built 10 pieces of diy including restoring the altec.   TG limiter, API's, LA2a, SSL compressor, 1176... 

Internet trolls, who jump on the backs of people and make them feel bad, really just need therapy and someone to tell them they love them.  I love you man, and your posts...

Man I'm not angry, it's no big deal.  20 dB pads are not personal for me...  LOL  I'm having fun with my DIY, not trying to give anyone a bad day.

All good on my end.  But pad's are complicated they're is some math involved.  and though it's super simple easy for you, it's not in my wheel-house...

So I'll take my business elsewhere.  I've wasted enough time thinking about you.
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: EmRR on December 28, 2018, 11:50:10 AM
There was nothing angry in my post.  Context is always lost in print.  It’s a fact; this wheel gets reinvented every 5 minutes for reasons I don’t undertand.  Exactly what I said. 

I thought you no longer owned this console anyway, so that’s confusing too. 

Would you know if I was trolling you?  THAT’s trolling.   
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on December 28, 2018, 12:01:38 PM
what are you talking about?  i own it...I'm using it right now.

go away...  mess with someone else...
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: JohnRoberts on December 28, 2018, 12:30:30 PM
what are you talking about?  i own it...I'm using it right now.

go away...  mess with someone else...
Chill some old timers (like me too) grow weary of plowing the same field over and over, while its still news to somebody.

Keep posting or not... Only you can let other people bother you.

JR
Title: Re: Altec 250su any experiences
Post by: bieckmusic on December 28, 2018, 12:44:42 PM
My point is no one asked for the rude comment.  I wasn't asking a question in my post.

No field needed to be plowed.  I just caught EMRR when his blood-sugar was down apparently...

Maybe the old timers should "chill" and loosen up a little...