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General Discussions => Studio A => Topic started by: zamproject on January 04, 2016, 01:47:47 PM

Title: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 04, 2016, 01:47:47 PM
Hi all

I decide to start this tread as my 89MotioN system is at crucial steep.
It's an automated fader system, full analogue PID motor driver allowing compatibilities and noiseless operation with passive audio fader and low level audio path.
The v1 boards (17pcb for 8 fader pack + SMPS, core and line tx/rx)  work fine, actually interfaced with midibox hardware and MB_NG software using MCU protocol. It still need some correction and crash test
I'm on this since two years, I believe I take one of the best route possible, and the result is good, I can leave and work with the actual implementation/design. But the next steep a "release", to be short, will implies little more work.

The main point here is to take temperature and see potential interest around for a system like this:

here is non exhaustive list of actual spec

-8 analogue PID and analogue touch detection for 8 motor fader (TKD and ALPS tested)

-64 digital in and out for led and button as follow:
  8 din interfaced to touch detection
  8 dout used do drive optocoupler, to allow analogue side remote without digital noise... in my case FET mute
  8 dout used to bypass motor
  6 din/out (per fader) illuminated button for remote, solo/mute/auto-read/auto-write/user/select
  8 spare din (button)

-8 AD and DA converter to read (from servo track) and send (to motor driver) automation data, 10bit<=>1024<=>0.1mm  steps for 100mm fader

-Dynamic spec give around 100ms full scale travel.
-Static spec give 0.01dB repositioning accuracy, by comparing (at step position) 2 audio re-recording pass,  phase inverted of the same automation read. Impressive but it's done in a short time range, same temperature etc...

-core STM32F4
-Vero SMPS (you need a high quality supply, with sens)
-Line TX/RX for computer/psu 19" rack up to 10m

Estimated cost is in the 3k (+/-1k) range, depending of fader choices and mechanical integration, for 8 fader pack.
It's not at all a cheap DIY project, nor an easy on, it involves digital and analogue electronic and some programming knowledge.
But it could be the first OEM DIY moving fader system so...

Let me ear what you guys around think about this.

Best
Zam


------------------------------------------
edit 30/01/16

for HUI protocol and PT user,
group member Zander from Belgium start a discussion about it, have a look.
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61673.0 (http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61673.0)


Title: Re: DIY fader automation interset ?
Post by: miszt on January 04, 2016, 05:20:36 PM
I would really like to be able to record and set the position of Pots via MIDI in my hardware, I guess the principal is the same? making a note on paper does the job, upto a certain point

I did ask a question about it on another forum, but for some reason got a whole host of useless answers that somehow turned into a flame war lol


any particular reason you are using MCU, and not something with better resolution, Eucon for eg? that's the one thing that has always held me back in terms of midi controllers, I always switch back to using a mouse/touchscreen, because the resolution just isn't upto scratch
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 04, 2016, 06:14:01 PM
Hi Miszt
It's not a snapshoot automation, it's a moving fader with automation read/write sync in the DAW,  audio pass through fader.
MCU is the easiest protocol for now, it's what opensource MB_NG have. Eucon is proprietary so no way to use it, OSC may be possible
It work now at 10 bits 1024steps, 0.1mm, with PB data (14bit) I don't see any reason to have better resolution.
I have it tested at 11bit resolution 2048 step 0.05mm for 100mm fader, my hand moving introduce more jitter than the system...
12bit (max ADDA resolution) introduce jitter
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: miszt on January 05, 2016, 04:16:05 AM
Hi Miszt
It's not a snapshoot automation, it's a moving fader with automation read/write sync in the DAW,  audio pass through fader.
MCU is the easiest protocol for now, it's what opensource MB_NG have. Eucon is proprietary so no way to use it, OSC may be possible
It work now at 10 bits 1024steps, 0.1mm, with PB data (14bit) I don't see any reason to have better resolution.
I have it tested at 11bit resolution 2048 step 0.05mm for 100mm fader, my hand moving introduce more jitter than the system...
12bit (max ADDA resolution) introduce jitter
Best
Zam


Yes that is what I meant, automation via a DAW

do you know of any Rotary Switches that can be controlled in this way? most of my stuff is switches rather than variable pots/faders; I've been searching for a while for this kind of solution, so I could record and save settings on hardware, without actually having to mess with the signal chain at all

fair enough if Eucon is proprietary - although I'm sure there must be a high resolution GPL/GNU project out there somewhere! not sure what OSC is, will read up!

1024 sounds pretty good on paper, certainly allot better than midi, I wonder what its like in practice tho? can you get that 0.01db adjustment, or will it be jumping between 0.05 and 0.15, for eg - that would be the test for me personally, and its one of the reasons I now don't bother very much with MIDI in the studio at all (clients don't react well to engineers screaming at the workstation haha)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 05, 2016, 09:14:10 AM
Hi

I don't know any rotary motor switch... ALPS and other offer motor pot

for audio log fader curve with 1024 steps the resolution is:
0.04dB at top +10db
0.08dB at middle -10dB
0.25dB at bottom -60dB

Keep in mind that the fader need time to react so even steeped target position will be reached fade in (or fade out)

Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rogy on January 05, 2016, 01:16:26 PM
Hi Zam,

Interested to integrate this into my EMT MM400 mixing desk...

I hope others will chime in as well!

Thanks for willing to share your knowledge and experience about this complex subject,

Best regards,

Rogy
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: signalflow on January 05, 2016, 02:30:00 PM
I've been researching doing this for a few months, no attempts to flesh anything out just yet.  My main hold back has been the programming of the midi-box.

What faders are you using?  Are they dual track?  Do you have any pictures of your progress so far?

I'll be following this thread to see how it turns out.

-Casey
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 05, 2016, 02:56:20 PM
Hi

Actual fader is TKD MF914
dual track: servo linear 10K, audio log (10K), and touch
I have a second with math log, but I don't like the curve.
I also try the cheap ALPS, clearly way below the TKD

the progress is here http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=56212.msg774490#msg774490 (http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=56212.msg774490#msg774490)

Best
Zam

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 06, 2016, 11:56:53 AM
Interested to integrate this into my EMT MM400 mixing desk...

Hi Rogy
I never come close to this EMT desk, but I belive the design is close to x69 studer series
I'm not sure event the motor fader alone (without any pcb) will fit the modules  :-\
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 06, 2016, 12:36:06 PM
I'm definitely interested and already did some preliminary research over at midi box. Your threads there and here have been really helpful. Your work saved me from going to the Mf_ng route! I know a bunch of other people like ruary are interested too. Timing is a little bad for me right now in terms of both time and money, but 6-12 months from now I'd be able to participate.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: signalflow on January 07, 2016, 04:02:33 PM
Hi

Actual fader is TKD MF914
dual track: servo linear 10K, audio log (10K), and touch
I have a second with math log, but I don't like the curve.
I also try the cheap ALPS, clearly way below the TKD

the progress is here http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=56212.msg774490#msg774490 (http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=56212.msg774490#msg774490)

Best
Zam

I inquired about their pricing some time back after reading about them on the midibox forum(didn't realize you were the same person).  They have other options a bit more manageable in price than the 914 but they take different voltages. 8V instead of 12V to be exact.  What are your thoughts on dropping the voltage to match these other faders?

http://www.tkd-corp.com/products/fader/motorfader.html (http://www.tkd-corp.com/products/fader/motorfader.html)

From the rep here in the States

"On the MF914 , We are quoting for the M8V also, J12V is a very expensive Swiss coreless motor but M8V is a very good DC motor

MF914-A10K-J12V.                               $107.20 ea.
MF914-A10K-M8V.                                  $ 80.56ea.
LMH5-1101-A10K-M8V.                      $ 59.87ea.
LMA5-1101 -A10K-M8V.                     $ 57.65 ea.  "

They never got back to me with the LMH2 series cost.

I am very interested in this automation system.  I just went back to an analog console and would love to have the ability for automation.  Following this closely.

-Casey
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 07, 2016, 06:40:57 PM
I have a 10V version
8V is the mabushi, 12V is the coreless

final peak to peak motor voltage is dependant of PSU rail  and resistor, it's flexible.
I wish I can try the coreless one day...to drop out the little sparkle that remain around console noisefloor
But I don't know if the motor already have the "converter" and can directly take DC.
LMx2 series seem to be end of life, replaced by LMx5, maybe that's why you don't get quote.

LMx5 is the new TKD product, conductive plastic too, so hope performance close to the MF914 regarding sliding noise, manufacturing tolerence is below MF914, so depend of curve matching compromise you think acceptable.
Mechanically they look way smaller than MF914, i'm wondering how the distance between servo, audio, and touch track influence the potential parasitic noise.

-edit: i just check, LMx5 is NOT conductive plastic, they say "direct print", believe it's carbon track...

If someone send me an LMH5 i'm ready to test it   :-X, more seriously I'm in contact since one year with european distributor, I will try to order this fader for test, don't know the availabilities yet.

TKD fader are great, i really like the two MF914 I have here for approval, the only complain I have is why they put the motor at the upper 0dB side, in analogue desk you'll be for sure close to analogue trace here, PAN or bus routing.

As personal note i recommend AP taper (audio log) not A taper (math log) , the fade in (out) feeling is better.

Best
Zam

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on January 08, 2016, 08:51:31 AM
Zam,

Glad to see the interest! I would be willing to talk with the US TKD distributor to see if a group buy would get the price down...

Eric
 
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 08, 2016, 01:33:07 PM
Zam,

Glad to see the interest! I would be willing to talk with the US TKD distributor to see if a group buy would get the price down...

Eric

By memory eu distributor offer 20% for 10pces and 50% for 100pces

I just put some clarification about midi implementation (as I have request by mail/MP)
Any midi data used by MCU can be mapped to any button/led, MB_NG offer LOT of programming options.
The new 16bit mapping release offer an incredible power to the system, I test it since two day, it's great. The direct consequence for 89MotioN system is that analogue fader attenuation match with DAW numerical value.
Now the limitation
MCU don't update instantly the signalling data to the control surface (only all data once per second) that mean midi mute automation can't be uses through MCU if you use optocouper for real mute like me.
You will have a lag from 0 to 1 sec when DAW send back "light this mute led". I use another midi port for this with all mute in a separate midi track. So solo/mute is usable when mixing, but NOT when printing the mix by using MCU
Some functions can't be full bidirectional with proper signalling update, like auto mode.
The only DAW data coming back for this is sysex to print the mode at LCD...no CC or midi note to sync led status. DAW won't update remote led, but remote button will always update it's own led and DAW automation status.
I use digital performer, maybe other DAW will react better. I have to test again with Reaper
There is now way to my knowledgre to run HUI properly because of fader dual CC handling (also limited to 9bit 512 step)
So PT user have to think about :(

Best
Zam


Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 08, 2016, 01:45:36 PM
A group buy would be great!
I'm a PT user, but I would change daws in a heartbeat. For me part of the point of building outboard/console/etc is to get to where I'm not looking at a screen all day. Even if I were to continue editing in pt, I'd just load everything up in another daw for mixing. I bet this sentiment will be common among other PT users who are thinking about building this system.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: john12ax7 on January 09, 2016, 05:40:37 PM
Very interesting project, think it should be moved to one of the discussion forum sections, more people would see it.

Some of my thoughts:

1) it's pricey for DIY. Is there a way to make a budget friendly non audio version? So just a fader control surface.

2) HUI mode would be useful for pro tools users.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 10, 2016, 09:38:51 AM
Very interesting project, think it should be moved to one of the discussion forum sections, more people would see it.

Some of my thoughts:

1) it's pricey for DIY. Is there a way to make a budget friendly non audio version? So just a fader control surface.

2) HUI mode would be useful for pro tools users.

Where do you think this tread below? project discussion mixer ?

1) yes as I say not a cheap DIY project,
using 20bucks/pce servo only ALP motor fader will for sure reduce the budget, but I don't see the point here, it's impossible to beat actual control surface like x-touch or icon or even artist mix.

2)I ear that, we will see if I can trick this

Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on January 10, 2016, 06:43:53 PM
Zam,

For some reason I think that the price is already less here in the states. Send me the exact TKD part number so I can reach back out and get some real numbers. And yes I am a PT user as well but agree that I would change that in a heart beat if this gets further traction. I also think you may be able to reduce the cost even further if we reduce some of the need for all of the functions at the fader side.. I personally don't mind keeping those features at the computer side. I also would be cool keeping mute automation on the computer side. I assume that would keep the cost down? Maybe not...

Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: signalflow on January 10, 2016, 08:07:41 PM
I think keeping the features on board would be nice but if you don't need them don't populate them. I agree with you, the way my saber is set up I wouldn't have enough room for the buttons but could come in handy for others as long as it still functions without them.

-Casey
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: john12ax7 on January 10, 2016, 11:08:21 PM
Very interesting project, think it should be moved to one of the discussion forum sections, more people would see it.

Some of my thoughts:

1) it's pricey for DIY. Is there a way to make a budget friendly non audio version? So just a fader control surface.

2) HUI mode would be useful for pro tools users.

Where do you think this tread below? project discussion mixer ?

1) yes as I say not a cheap DIY project,
using 20bucks/pce servo only ALP motor fader will for sure reduce the budget, but I don't see the point here, it's impossible to beat actual control surface like x-touch or icon or even artist mix.

2)I ear that, we will see if I can trick this

Zam

I would say move it either to  mixer section or drawing board, since it's still a discussion.

I've just been disappointed in control surfaces, so thinking about rolling my own. Mostly I want mixer faders that line up with my 500 series gear, I've fine with either audio or non audio passing through.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 10, 2016, 11:14:28 PM
I think keeping the features on board would be nice but if you don't need them don't populate them. I agree with you, the way my saber is set up I wouldn't have enough room for the buttons but could come in handy for others as long as it still functions without them.

-Casey

You don't "need" the remote board with 6button/led it can be done a DAW side (which is little less ergonomic...) but you still need to populate all SRIO at I/O board, 2 of 16 digital I/O (per fader) is used for touch detection and motor bypass. 56 D I/O have then to be clamped to 0V  ;D

for Eric and cost.
here is my approximation
BOM 400 (including MBHP pcb)
fader between 250 and 800 depending of manufacturer/qualities/quantities
PSU, you can't avoid high qualities, with very low ripple and sense hooked close to servo rail, only 5mV ripple or voltage drop (due to LED) will introduce 1 step jitter / 0.1mm move at the fader.
I use vero PK series, 600/pces you can fin second hand for half.
A rack, 3u vero (or any eurorack) is nice to fit the PSU and computer, front and rear panel 100 at best
Frontpanel for fader, I can't say, it's realy up to each situation/integration. My use case is around 900, with 200x40 FP, digital print and standoff (no visible screw except fader) + special bracket to retrofit my studer 289 fader cassette
All extra, wire, bracket/spacer, everything you don't think about but you will need it... let say 50
Then 17 pcb, I know what I pay for, I have no idea what will be a fair price to sell.
Finaly shipping for all this.

faderI have are
MF914, 10K, 10V (audio log)
MF914 ,A10K, 10V(math log),
B10K is linear servo only.

let me know what your US distributor say, but keep in mind that if the groupbuy is done in US, european buyer will pay aprox 25% in tax when importing back in EU

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 10, 2016, 11:45:42 PM
I've just been disappointed in control surfaces, so thinking about rolling my own. Mostly I want mixer faders that line up with my 500 series gear, I've fine with either audio or non audio passing through.

Motor PCB is 34mm, so it will fit the 1.5 inches 500 series, but you need 4U frontpanel,
most of motor fader are about 150mm long.

I/O board is 250x85mm, not more than 30cm cable/ribbon from the fader/motor board.
Motor board is 34x120mm as close as possible to the fader,
Remote is 16x150mm as close as possible to the front panel.

Other note, I design nothing at analogue side, if used outside a desk you have to hookup 10dB amp at output also line receiver/driver if you want symmetrical I/O
The only "outside link" add (except fader lug) is an opto-coupler, free for any switching you like (now I put on the rev2 todo list, optional resistor/wiring footprint for the transistor output, I switch a negative rail here, need positive rail switching option too for other usecase)

best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on January 11, 2016, 08:56:59 AM
Zam,

Thanks again, the cost breakdown is great! I see some places I can save for sure.. I have thoughts on using my existing fader panels for example.. I also have CNC so the panels are easy for me :). I was thinking about the fader Euro issue as well, I suppose it depends on the number of guys in each location will dictate the best option.. I will still reach out.. I will need 24 so maybe I will say minimum 100 and get a price. I will need the Audio taper but I cant imagine the type would change the cost.

Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Zander on January 11, 2016, 09:25:28 AM
Maybe we could do different group buys for Europe and US? Depending on what price you get and interest of course. I'm mailing a distributor too.


Zander
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 11, 2016, 09:36:21 AM
Hi

The log curve will not change the price for sure, but will discount apply the same with different ref ?
At my side as I already say I feel audio log better (with -20dB at half), it's equal to the "historical" 104mm but interpolated to 100mm
The math log, is the curve we mainly find with VCA fader (-30 at half run), which is linear dB scale (as math tell), useful to keep constant gain between non equal absolute fader value when grouping, as travel VS gain is linear.
Hopefully the curve mapping at soft side allow this for any kind of fader curve.

Be careful, for TKD A10K is math, 10K is audio....
I think coreless motor have to be tested, as the new LMH5 series, I will update on this.

For european ppl interested plz don't spam the european distributor with same request, I'm in contact since long time.
Last quotation is 110pce, 20% 5pces, 50% 100pces. On request, 8 week delivery.

BUT if someone ask P&G it will be great, especially if they still have a stereo audo+ servo

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 11, 2016, 01:47:59 PM
I asked P&G's US distributor last year.

The  D460626 Stereo Motor Fader was around $260 if buying 8 pieces.
The D460625 Mono Motor Fader was around $205 if buying 32 pieces.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 11, 2016, 02:22:06 PM
I asked P&G's US distributor last year.

The  D460626 Stereo Motor Fader was around $260 if buying 8 pieces.
The D460625 Mono Motor Fader was around $205 if buying 32 pieces.

HOUTCH !!!
Which series is that? PGFM8000? this fader is in the legacy section at P&G website  :-X
and there is no dual audio+servo in all the new line , PGFM3200 nor PGFM9000
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: squarewave on January 14, 2016, 08:31:11 PM
I don't know any rotary motor switch... ALPS and other offer motor pot
I have searched hard many times for a motorized rotary switch. There is simply no such thing which is very unfortunate.

Just to be clear there actually are motorized rotary switches but they are enormous crude, slow things the size of your fist that sound like an old typewriter when switching.

If there was no knob shaft, the forces required to switch positions drop greatly in which case I would think a motorized rotary switch could be made quite small, fast and quiet. It could just be a mini stepper mounted on a PCB with contacts on one side and gray code contacts on the other. And with standoffs one could make multiple gangs. If they were small enough, mini motorized rotary switches would be GREAT for pro-audio. I love the idea of being able to recall presets and control things remotely.

Relays are not the right solution for more than 2 positions as the signal traces / path are unnecessarily long and convoluted. Solid state devices like SS relays, digipots or chips like ADG1414 have high on resistance and junction capacitance and so they cannot be used with just any circuit. The circuit would have to be designed around the chip.

So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Krcwell on January 14, 2016, 09:43:51 PM
Very cool project, I would definitely be in for a production run of pcb's and a group buy on faders.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 15, 2016, 11:37:01 AM
So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

That won't be me doing this sorry, and this is not the right thread to talk about  :-X

Very cool project, I would definitely be in for a production run of pcb's and a group buy on faders.

copy that !

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Andy Peters on January 15, 2016, 12:17:01 PM
So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

I just saw this (http://www.thegigrig.co.uk/thegigrig-autopot-c2x19388937). Perhaps not enough torque for turning a multi-deck switch. NB it's not a real product yet.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: squarewave on January 15, 2016, 06:49:09 PM
So someone please make a tiny electronically controlled rotary switch. I could see a very small cheap solution using a tiny gear motor, an h-bridge driver, a pic and some feedback circuitry. It could be mounted onto a PCB using standoffs and the contacts could just be pads on the PCB itself. The whole switch could be the size of a medium sized electrolytic capacitor.

I just saw this (http://www.thegigrig.co.uk/thegigrig-autopot-c2x19388937). Perhaps not enough torque for turning a multi-deck switch. NB it's not a real product yet.

Ha! Sorry for hijacking your thread zamproject but this "TheGigRig AutoPot" thing is actually pretty awesome. I still want something small enough to be mounted on a pcb (meaning no knob shaft). And I have to wonder if there is any position sensor or feedback stops. If not, I'm not convinced it could work reliably and repeatedly.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Spino on January 20, 2016, 06:07:53 AM

Let me ear what you guys around think about this.

Best
Zam

Here's my 2 eurocents worth.

First of all: I've been mixing on very different systems, but mostly what gets used nowadays is in the box mixing. I was coming from an old school analogue huge boards kind of environment, and I still miss the "easy of use" while in production. Most of it, in my personal opinion, has nothing to do with audio quality, but with the human interface: a full board with actual tactile buttons is waaaaay faster, its UI is a mixture of eye-ear-hand cordination, it's something you'll never get on a computer, where you have to tweak back and forth.

The rare time that these days I get to work on a full blown modern studio, I am shocked by the fact that their brand new [insert very expensive name here] analog board doesn't have automation. Even those who get [very expensive name in this case is mostly SSL] older board, don't use the existing automation. This mostly means that modern on-board automated mixing is not possible, and in fact every younger engineer mostly mixes in the box using a huge board as a very expensive summing amplifier. None of them realize what they're missing in term of smoothness of workflow.

So, here's my actual 2 cents, I'd jump on the automated board any day of the year. I've been dreaming of that for about 15 years now. I'm only fearing there's not many people who understand this need.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Zander on January 20, 2016, 09:36:56 AM
I wouldn't hesitate one moment once this gets available!


Zander
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 20, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
Spino, I agree with you, even if I came from a more "modern" age where I start ITB.
It could be a long discussion, a philosophic and neuro-scientific one.
I think working sound by looking at a (computer) screen corrupt at subconscious level the way you hear.
Sight and hearing, work great together in a forest to catch prey. But not in a studio to catch Music  ;D

So, here's my actual 2 cents, I'd jump on the automated board any day of the year. I've been dreaming of that for about 15 years now. I'm only fearing there's not many people who understand this need.

We will see
10 kit should be enough for a first run, it's 80 fader pack.
It's 2ppl with 32 fader and one with 16, or 5ppl with 16fader
I think we already have the potential for this.
I still wait a clear reply from midibox community about my system using MB_NG at soft side

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 21, 2016, 11:04:29 AM
Hi all

I just run a read pass for your guy about fader noise
It's the TKD MF914 (not the ALPS) so the sliding noise is truly excellent

You will hear a pink noise, that's my console noise floor, and also the motor sparkle remaining, that's what interest us here  ::)

the file have:
-16sec with 4x4 sec ramp --> 2x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm
-16sec with 16x1sec ramp --> 8x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm
-8sec with 16x500ms ramp --> 8x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm
-8sec with 16x0ms step (square) --> 8x fade-in fade-out full travel 100mm. At this set-up the DAW automation lane is faster than motor fader, so the fader is at his max speed (around 100ms for 100mm travel) voltage and current

Master fader of the console is at unity.
Last 8sec are of course the noisiest, but don't correspond to real use case situation, when printing fader automation by hand.
First 40 sec is more real.

You can put this audio file across any other audio file (like lead voice, good test) both at unity, to hear the real impact of the fader

here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/wdfwq9ds4mrgi1q/89MotioN_1_fader_noise.wav?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/wdfwq9ds4mrgi1q/89MotioN_1_fader_noise.wav?dl=0)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 21, 2016, 11:21:22 AM
And here it is 30sec hand writhing automation and playback record, master fader still at unity.
I stay in the +5/-10dB area of the fader (around unity) an move like it was a vocal or instrument adjust at mix.
In that 30 sec fader always move.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghl3js4l3k8fivh/89MotioN_1_fader_noise_2.wav?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ghl3js4l3k8fivh/89MotioN_1_fader_noise_2.wav?dl=0)

Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 22, 2016, 01:05:18 PM
Hi,
Did someone put an ear at those files?
I'm interested for feedback about the fader motor noise.
For me it's ok, as at "normal" use the sparkle is at my console noise floor, but my 40 years old lady is not an example for this.
Let me know
Best
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: signalflow on January 25, 2016, 11:02:34 AM
The only time I could hear any artifacts was on the first file after the 40 sec mark.  The second file didn't have anything I could hear under phones.

-Casey
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Zander on January 25, 2016, 11:17:16 AM
I also didn't hear anything until about the same time as signalflow reported. I'm going to check soon on my monitors.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 25, 2016, 11:57:59 AM
Hello
Tks both of you for the first feed back.
As suggested by Zander it's preferable to listen with studio monitor, there is a chance the sparkle noise is under cellphone amp/speaker noisefloor.

If you want to hear what really happen, I suggest a trim gain about +40dB or more.
If you want real use case consequence of the sparkle noise keep the file at unity.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 26, 2016, 10:50:04 AM
Hi all

Some info update, midibox creator aka Thorsten just inform me that he accept this project release using his open source system.
It was on of the last major doubt I have, now solved.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Zander on January 26, 2016, 11:13:55 AM
Great news!


Looking forward to hearing more about this!


Zander
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 26, 2016, 02:19:11 PM
Hi all

So here is more, I have a choice/decision to take soon then.

I know now there is low chances I'll be able to fund the last test in the next 6 month (basically 8 fader pack)

So I'm little stuck here,
Do I have to decide to put this in standby until then, to release the thing 100% tested (I mean at least 8 fader together).
Or do I start now releasing not 100% tested system, which will partially pay hardware to fit my console and test a full pack...

Since beginning of this project, I try to not involve other's money with non fully tested system, even if I get few very kind offer.

I know Zander is very enthusiastic with this, and he want to look forward for potential PT user support (soft side). Which could be great!
Also Tskguy, have you any update from US TKD distributor?

What do you guys usually find acceptable "error" when it come to a first run with DIY project?
The main concern here is potential latency via MCU protocol, when running more fader (more mididata), and of course what happen with 4MCU unit (32 fader)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Zander on January 27, 2016, 03:37:29 AM
What would sell if you release now? I can take the risk of buying a faderpack if this would fund you for further testing.


Zander
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 27, 2016, 02:16:37 PM
I could buy pcb's but not faders right now. I'm in the middle in switching to off-grid solar power so I need to chill on expenses for the rest of the year.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 28, 2016, 12:33:33 PM
mmm i still thinking, maybe I can check with a bunch of cheap alps, it will approve the system, just poor audio spec with those carbon track. I think it will cost less at the end buying ALPS now and TKD with group buy later than ordering TKD now at full price.

To respond about price, I have no idea, i'm not used to this "market"
What do you guys have in mind about price range for a project like this?
It's and "inspired from" project, but not a cloning at all, there is some true "RnD" and original design/layout
It involve 17pcb.
When I see a 1176 pcb at 20€, that cost 2€ to manufacture, it's a x10...

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on January 29, 2016, 01:30:26 PM
Little risk in an 1176 though. I too have been watching this thread in anticipation.
Maybe try the alps. You spend less that way and it will get you further along until you can get as far as you can.  Than when its time you know what you have will probably work.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 29, 2016, 10:52:14 PM
I'd say charge for your time in such a way that you feel good about it. In this business especially we all know about being too generous and working for too little money because we like a  project or a person and then end up feeling resentful as the project drags on. When you say its 17 pcbs is that for 8 channel? Are the midi box pcbs in addition to that? If so that would be a ton! In general pcb's both in gdiy and in synth land cost $20 or more (example of different makers of synth module pcbs all at one hub: http://synthcube.com/cart/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_77).
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 30, 2016, 10:30:52 AM
I'd say charge for your time in such a way that you feel good about it. In this business especially we all know about being too generous and working for too little money because we like a  project or a person and then end up feeling resentful as the project drags on. When you say its 17 pcbs is that for 8 channel? Are the midi box pcbs in addition to that? If so that would be a ton! In general pcb's both in gdiy and in synth land cost $20 or more (example of different makers of synth module pcbs all at one hub: http://synthcube.com/cart/index.php?route=product/category&path=74_77).
yes it's 17 pcb for 8 ch, I keep the system modular, because it's the only way to fit in my modular console...
One in/out board (64Digital I/O and 8 analogue I/O)
8 motor/touch pcb and 8 button/led pcb
MB_NG pcb not included, you need 1 core pcb and optional line rx/tx pcb if you put the brain in a rack (recommended)
So the basic system is 20 pcb total for 8 fader
For what I look around regarding pcb dimension and complexities the I/O pcb is in the 50-75 range, motor in the 15-25 and remote in the 7-15. It's a 200-400 total range estimation

I will never be able to charge time!!! I think I put more than 1000h in the last two years on this  ::)
There is a reason "big name" charge 6 to 8k for 8 fader pack...it still a small market for branded system you can't really absorb R&D by selling million unit.
The only reasonable target I can hope for, is to eventually compensate hardware invest, and donate something to support the MIOS creator/community.But then releasing the system introduce a new cost (mainly time) for the support and help.

Little risk in an 1176 though. I too have been watching this thread in anticipation.
Maybe try the alps. You spend less that way and it will get you further along until you can get as far as you can.  Than when its time you know what you have will probably work.
Yep, recent thinking tell me it's the route to go.
So it's an half standby  :P

Best
Zam

ps: here is what a 8 fader "89MotioN" pcb set look like

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 30, 2016, 10:45:49 AM
Discussion for HUI and PT compatibilities started by Zander here:
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61673.0 (http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=61673.0)

(first post updated about this too)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 30, 2016, 10:56:30 AM
In any case, count me in.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 02, 2016, 03:12:35 PM
Zam count me in for an 8 pack as well!!

Glad to see the movement. I was away doing some traveling . I did get some numbers from the US distributer for TKD. For some reason he said the 8v motor was the better option and that the 10v motor was longer lead time and more expensive.
 

Prices as follows:-

                                                   50.             100.          500.          1000
                                                   -----          ------       -----          ------

MF914 A10K M8V.                   $77.             $68.93.    $65.85.     $58.73

LMH5-1101-A10K M8V.         $62.50.        $53.32.    $48.01.     $45.50

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 02, 2016, 03:48:33 PM
Hi Eric
Look like price are more or less the same, considering VAT and import. I will check
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 03, 2016, 01:44:12 PM
So one thing to consider if we want to buy them in the states we have no VAT or Import Tax so if we did a group buy for the boys state side it still may be worthwhile,, That being said I have a line on a large number of PG motorized faders that are correct just trying to work out a good price...

Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 03, 2016, 03:29:41 PM
Not sure to understand your point ?
Don't you pay VAT an import in the US ? I think your distributor price include what it cost to him to import them, and he also ad VAT on invoice... am I wrong ?

Unfortunately I can't go back with other motor fader at my side, the whole design (I mean mechanical) is around TKD, P&G won't fit now due to motor position.

Best
Zam


Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 03, 2016, 06:21:56 PM
Yes that is correct we do not pay Vat in the USA , import tax is something I am not sure about... And bummer about the PG fader!! Not a huge deal though...

Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on February 03, 2016, 06:43:53 PM
Duty on goods imported into the US is variable and can be as high as 37%, but is generally closer to 5%.
I'm not sure how the faders would be classified. I know some electronic products get exemptions.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 03, 2016, 07:51:59 PM
True but we will not be the one importing the goods.. The USA distributer will be.. He may pass the cost on but I would say most do not....
Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on February 04, 2016, 09:50:52 AM
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were saying it might be cheaper to buy from the Europe group buy because we'd avoid VAT.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 04, 2016, 10:50:45 AM
OK, I use wrong word, you have no VAT in US like here in EU, but you still have sale tax.
What I mean is that if you (for example) manage the group buy, you will have to pay this sale tax, then send fader for EU buyer which will have more or less 25% VAT and import to pay (depending of country) when importing to EU, which mean EU buyer will pay twice (EU VAT and US sale taxes). It will be the same the other way

So my point is that it's maybe better to run two group buy, it need to be calculated, what option is the best regarding price.
Another point is the distributor/manufacturer warranty, for high pricing and qualities part like those fader, it's maybe better to buy from official "local" supplier.

For the moment I'm just questioning.
 I still wait updated quotation from EU distributor

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: pahstah on February 04, 2016, 03:10:53 PM
Hi Zam, i'm interested in this project, when i conceived my mixer i left space in the fader section in order to accept an movente fader automation like this. I'd be interested in eight faders.

Paolo

P.s. Mixer thread here: http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=60690.0
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 04, 2016, 03:28:57 PM
Hi Zam, i'm interested in this project, when i conceived my mixer i left space in the fader section in order to accept an movente fader automation like this. I'd be interested in eight faders.

Paolo

P.s. Mixer thread here: http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=60690.0

Hi Paolo
That's a really nice project you have :) bravo !!
What is the modules width in your design ? 1.5 inches API ?
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: pahstah on February 05, 2016, 04:57:47 AM
Hi Paolo
That's a really nice project you have :) bravo !!
What is the modules width in your design ? 1.5 inches API ?
Best
Zam
[/quote]

Thank you Zam!
yes, my project is based on 1.5 inches API, the proto you see in the thread uses a single 8 channel wide panel to cut the cost during development , but my idea is to have single modular channel for routing solo and mute and fader panel in group of 4 or 8 just as in api 1608.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 05, 2016, 07:17:50 AM
Thank you Zam!
yes, my project is based on 1.5 inches API, the proto you see in the thread uses a single 8 channel wide panel to cut the cost during development , but my idea is to have single modular channel for routing solo and mute and fader panel in group of 4 or 8 just as in api 1608.

Hi
It will fit with 1.5 inches pitch, but you need 4U length (fader is 152mm).
By the way what is your mute design based on? FET ? relay ? manual switch only?
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 05, 2016, 08:53:48 AM
Paolo

I just have a more detailed look at your build, which is amazing.
I'm little scared about room in your design. It seem you won't be able to fit the led/button remote PCB as your routing PCB already take place at left hand of fader, approximately half way.

TKD have the motor at 0dB side, I suspect you don't have enough space between upper fader M3 screw and pan pot, you need minimum 19mm here. Have a look http://www.tkd-corp.com/products/fader/pdf/mf914s-e.pdf (http://www.tkd-corp.com/products/fader/pdf/mf914s-e.pdf).
Also the motor will be so close from your output trafo (is it? direct out ?) not sure it even fit, I have relative  good result with motor noise here, but I think an audio trafo is the last component you want to have so close to a motor  :-X

So for what I see now I think you can't use the TKD fader, you need P&G or ALPS.

Regarding the the button and led you can leave without them, then every parameter have to be handled at DAW side, or you design a smaller version (it seem you have the skill for design 8) ) with less control to fit at the very lower side of the fader.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: pahstah on February 05, 2016, 03:44:15 PM
Zam, you're right there's no room for the fader and pcb in this version of the mixer. In fact i was thinking about design a bigger version of the chassis with faders in their own 4U module and the routing part of the pcb on a 6U part but this will happen only if there will be interest in the mixer project.
Paolo
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on February 06, 2016, 11:04:14 AM
I must say I like the idea of possibly making everything in standard 19 inch 4u or 6 u for those of us who havent taken the time to learn metal work like you fine gents have. Lots of potential there.
I'm all for standing on the shoulders of others.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 08, 2016, 09:08:51 AM
Zam,

I am a bit confused to why the P&G faders wouldn't work??  I have a line on some for a great price. Remember we on Group DIY!!
Do it yourself.. Not build someone else's perfect kit... :)

Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 08, 2016, 11:12:07 AM
I am a bit confused to why the P&G faders wouldn't work??

Hi Eric
I don't say they wouldn't work !!! I say I can't use them with my mechanical integration/design for my Studer 289.
There is in theory no reason they don't work with the electronic, I just don't try them nor core less motor (which is the P&G standard)
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 10, 2016, 02:07:50 PM
Oh ok cool...

I have a line on some used ones for a good price.  Thanks again. How are things progressing by the way? Have you seen what Jeff Steiger is up to regarding automation??
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 10, 2016, 02:42:25 PM
Have you seen what Jeff Steiger is up to regarding automation??

I know nothing, any link ?
best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on February 10, 2016, 06:08:53 PM
Go to his Facebook page.  He did it.  Well him and a few others.  Its awesome.  Pretty much vca controlled  eight fader modules that offer daw control, automation, and recall in ot nuendo and logic but will be universal.
They will come in different formats e.g.one kind for retrofitting a console, one as a summing mixer fader pack, and another to replace ssl faders.
Very impressive at any rate.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 10, 2016, 08:17:33 PM
well I just have a look...
Sound like death sentence for a release of my system, I can't "compete" here.
Don't know what to say  :(
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on February 10, 2016, 08:43:27 PM
I'm not sure. Won't That VCA's add quite a bit of distortion? How much will those boards cost? Unless they cost significantly less, I think this project would probably be worth pursuing.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: signalflow on February 10, 2016, 08:58:26 PM
well I just have a look...
Sound like death sentence for a release of my system, I can't "compete" here.
Don't know what to say  :(
Best
Zam

I disagree. You both have the same ideas but his is going to be pre built and yours will be build to taste.  If you were able to offer the 8 channel per board option for the fader controller it would possibly help keep some costs down both for you and others. I know your console doesn't allow for space like that but others do. Keep going man, you're doing great work.

-Casey
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 10, 2016, 09:33:04 PM
I'm not sure. Won't That VCA's add quite a bit of distortion? How much will those boards cost? Unless they cost significantly less, I think this project would probably be worth pursuing.

The plan is clear...second release is a passive system with motor fader... "for folks to upgrade their old ..., Studer."
Is that a joke ?? a call ?? or I'm just paranoiac ??

I disagree. You both have the same ideas but his is going to be pre built and yours will be build to taste.  If you were able to offer the 8 channel per board option for the fader controller it would possibly help keep some costs down both for you and others. I know your console doesn't allow for space like that but others do. Keep going man, you're doing great work.
-Casey

We will see.

Anyway tks both of you for support

Best
Zam

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on February 11, 2016, 04:42:36 AM
well I just have a look...
Sound like death sentence for a release of my system, I can't "compete" here.
Don't know what to say  :(
Best
Zam

I disagree. You both have the same ideas but his is going to be pre built and yours will be build to taste.  If you were able to offer the 8 channel per board option for the fader controller it would possibly help keep some costs down both for you and others. I know your console doesn't allow for space like that but others do. Keep going man, you're doing great work.

-Casey

Ditto.
Yeah man I didn't intend on derailing you.  Its apples and oranges really.  I thought it was just another reference for you to use for ideas for your project.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 11, 2016, 10:12:43 AM
Ditto.
Yeah man I didn't intend on derailing you.  Its apples and oranges really.  I thought it was just another reference for you to use for ideas for your project.

Hi
I won't derail !  :)
Whatever happen I will finish and use what I'v done, it's a matter of weeks.
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on February 11, 2016, 10:26:20 AM
Zam,

Yes please continue!! Jeff's initial release is only VCA and not motorized.. I am sure you can to the table first with a motorized solution.


Eric
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 11, 2016, 11:43:43 AM
Zam,

Yes please continue!! Jeff's initial release is only VCA and not motorized.. I am sure you can to the table first with a motorized solution.


Eric

Hi Eric
Of course I continue, I won't stop two years of work  ;)
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on February 11, 2016, 03:06:01 PM
Dude, I'm in for 40 channels. I decided I can at least buy the pcbs even if I won't be able to afford the faders for some time.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 11, 2016, 07:08:03 PM
Dude, I'm in for 40 channels. I decided I can at least buy the pcbs even if I won't be able to afford the faders for some time.

Hi Gato
As the system (for now) use MCU protocol you are limited to 32 fader
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on March 02, 2016, 12:34:38 PM
Hi all

Little update  ;)

16 TKD fader on the way... I will tell more in 8-10 weeks.
It let me time to complete 8 channel built (mechanic and pcb) and put the fader in as soon as I got them  8)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on March 02, 2016, 02:44:03 PM
Great news.. Cant wait to see more!
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on March 16, 2016, 02:09:16 PM
Great news.. Cant wait to see more!

"petite mise en bouche"

Startup script, letting time for the system correctly setting up all analogue and digital I/O, with LED and fader check :)
As soon as I have 8 fader loaded with 48LED I will do a Vegas mode :p

here it is -->https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1jefhpjynqwg1h/89MotioN_poweronscript.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/n1jefhpjynqwg1h/89MotioN_poweronscript.mov?dl=0)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on March 24, 2016, 08:45:17 AM
Looking very good! ;D
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on March 24, 2016, 01:35:33 PM
Yes!!!!!!!
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on April 13, 2016, 10:28:34 AM
Hi all

Some update:

-I'm expecting some delay with TKD delivery, more about end of May...

-all other parts for 8 fader pack are now at home or in the way to, meaning I just hit the 4k invest for this R&D (but including 8 spare fader and 2  front panel... for the second 8fader pack)

good new is:
-I study RTP-Midi since time now, compatible ethernet board are on the way too, expecting some improvement with communication and timing with "true" real time :)
I first look at OSC few month ago, but now I think RTP-Midi is the way to go, we will see !
-I'm also starting to study CTRLR for a plugin (VST/AU). First build, basic fader+mute work somehow!!!, but it's just the beginning...I will need time for this I think.

Both implementation put together (RTP-Midi + plugin), if working, should run way more than MCU/HUI 32faders...

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on April 19, 2016, 08:35:48 AM
Héhé  8)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: r2d2 on April 20, 2016, 03:58:27 AM
hi,
any info about the cost of this automation?
cheers
R.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on April 23, 2016, 08:06:02 AM
hi,
any info about the cost of this automation?
cheers
R.

Hi
It's already  discussed, please read whole topic to not repeat myself  :)
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on May 18, 2016, 08:22:22 PM
desperately waiting for the most important part...the fader  :-\

best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on June 11, 2016, 09:33:04 PM
Hi all

Did I say something ?
 8)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mrtnagyd1fcza0s/89MotioN_FaderPack_480p.mov?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/mrtnagyd1fcza0s/89MotioN_FaderPack_480p.mov?dl=0)

more coming soon  ;)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on June 13, 2016, 08:21:24 AM
Hi

Few side notes.

-RTP-midi ethernet pcb is currently evaluated :)

-I burn LOT of motor driver transistor this w-e, and discover all broken one come from the same batch from Reichelt...
I think what's labelled is not what's inside...I just place order at RS which I feel better about potential counterfeit component.

-I use some spare time to mod the DAC used for first prototype to now drive my VCA rack, work great, with MIOS too, perfectly scaled with the mapping tool... I can use motor fader across VCA and group them with accurate matching, will be fine for my stereo channel.

Best
Zam

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on June 13, 2016, 09:23:07 AM
yea! (cause a like ain't enough)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: tskguy on June 16, 2016, 04:17:55 PM
WOW!! that is so bad ass....  ;D ;D ;D Looking forward to seeing more.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on June 17, 2016, 11:13:13 AM
Hi

Thanks to all of you.

Two news...one good...one bad

Good:
I perform some test after software reconfiguration to run the thing  over RTP-midi, so far it work great.
Which mean I think this solution is great and will be retained as possible option (over USB) for ppl who want/can afford the extra cost.
KissBox RTP-midi OEM CPU board used here, SPI connection with MidiBox world.

Bad:
Since previous video teaser, which is without audio passing though, I complete the build and connect audio.
Look fine except some PSU/digital noise at left hand module where all system wire run close in the frame, just need better isolation or to find another road for them, should be easy.
The main and BIG issue, is that I just got a batch (16 faders) with wrong audio taper log curve. Discovered when finally connect the audio after fixing the dozens burned transistors driving the motor (I believe fake component)
I don't know when they will replace them, already wait 12weeks for those, and I have a big summer coming with a relocation of the studio.

It's difficult to stay calm...

Hope I'll find some spare time this summer to finish the rev 2 pcb, probably a 4 layer for main pcb, will be way easy to solve some small design issue (corrected with rework and wire now, not so clean..).
I need them anyway for my second fader pack (first pcb batch made only for 8 ) I will then ask here or at a new  feeler tread for small run if interest remain.

By the way, are you guys afraid with SMD soldering ? SSOP/SOIC, pitch 1.27, the DAC is already only available in SOIC20, so I'm thinking to put all IC surface mount.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: audiomixer on June 17, 2016, 12:34:39 PM
I think SMD is doable, been testing stuff with success over here. easier to do with solder paste stencils. I use a small conventional oven that I measured the temp raise / fall of.

cheers,

Michael
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on June 17, 2016, 12:52:58 PM
I think SMD is doable, been testing stuff with success over here. easier to do with solder paste stencils. I use a small conventional oven that I measured the temp raise / fall of.

cheers,

Michael

Hi Michael

Tks for your input, I also have success with SOIC 1.27 pitch for this project, two time, for standard midibox CV pcb and for my design.
That's why I have in mind to maybe use SMD for all other, the 8ch ADC and 16 shift register (128 digital I/O), I will keep resistor, capacitor and connector TH.
One advantage is that it will for sure give me more room, for optional line receiver fitted at the 89InouT PCB (in place of separate pcb) also to update the connector layout which have to be changed/corrected.
I will give a try, at least for the PCB design, we will see for manufacturing.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on June 17, 2016, 08:01:58 PM
I wouldn't have a problem with SMD.
It's been on the list of things I want to learn, so this could be great.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on July 11, 2016, 09:46:16 PM
Hi all

I don't update sooner sorry, but I have lot of work because I relocate my studio this summer.
Also I have issue with my fader order, I wont talk to much about this because it's a f... mess (not my fault at all) and I lost one more month, anyway the result is I unmounted everything few weeks ago, send back all my motor fader and wait for another batch.. Should have them tomorrow !!! but I'm so busy I don't know when I will be able to finish the revB PCB and test them.
I think the main PCB with digital and analogue I/O will be 4 layers, SMD for all chips.
Stay tuned  8)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on July 19, 2016, 09:37:56 AM
Hi all

Some new and little poll

The issue I have with the fader is that TKD send me math log curve in place of the audio log curve I order.
They say they won't manufacture audio log any more for MF914, which is a f... shame.
They finally send me back a batch of 16pces audio log but seem it's the last run, with very low stock.

So what do you guys think?
Stick to this high end motor fader but with no option except math log (same scale as you find in VCA faders, linear dB scale)
Start to test another series (I have LMH5 in mind) which have the advantage of pin contact to fit/solder the pcb directly to the fader, but with a deep revision of the PCB which I will never use at my side (just to say I have to find motivation to do it...)

happy summer/holiday to all  ;)
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on July 19, 2016, 10:09:01 AM
Why don't you stick with the the faders you have since they're what you want and let us do any tests?
Many projects here work like that. I'm down to start work on it today.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on August 09, 2016, 11:45:07 AM
Hi all

Summer update
I take few hours to test some change/improvement
Now the system run at 11bit (2048 steps for 100mm travel) without any jitter, previously it was 10bit clean and some jitter at 11bit).
I also change the power transistors for a stronger one, better dissipation and less heat. It was impossible to touch the previous one, and failure issue with a batch (still thinking it was a faked ref). Now it's safe.

I try to work at V2 pcb when I'm not building walls  :)
The main PCB is now 4 layer, all IC with SMD package.
Motor PCB have minor change and remote PCB is fine as is.

I wish I can order a new pcb run for early September, I'll keep you all informed  :)

Best
Zam

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: thekid777 on August 14, 2016, 09:50:03 PM
Really, really cool!
By the way I have someone in my family working with smd components all the time (near Toulouse)
What would be the estimated cost per channel now?
How hard it is to fit the system in your Studer for example?
Quality of sound is untouched with the new system fitted?
Quite a great thing to give automation to oldies :)

Bravo!
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on August 15, 2016, 05:09:19 AM
Hi thekid

Prototype cost me around 4k (with some mistake and already faders and front panel for 16 pces)
It is designed to fit my Studer so it fit well...
As the fader is passive, no change in sound, still little motor sparkle around mixer noise floor.
Resistive material is modern CP, and low resistive touch of the wiper keep the sliding noise far away, even at fastest move.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: thekid777 on August 15, 2016, 05:49:33 AM
Thanks Zam!
Are you near to success?
I watched the video and it seem really cool…and great looking!
I would be very interested to get your system when you'll be done, does it work with ethernet-protools now?
If you're interested to develop it more and sell it to the "masses", I guess the person of my family (smd components) could help…
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on August 15, 2016, 09:52:09 AM
Hi

It's a success since few months, but I take me time to fine adjust/test  some improvement and now completely redraw the main PCB with 4 layer and SMD package.
It use midi over MCU protocol (no PT compatibilities for now...), tested with USB midi and RTP-midi (ethernet)
I'm not planing a mass production.
For what desk are you interested ?
Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: thekid777 on August 15, 2016, 09:57:06 AM
Same as yours ;)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on October 01, 2016, 12:30:09 PM
How is it going?

The channel width is 1.5 inches?
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on October 02, 2016, 05:25:59 AM
Hi Gato

It's going stand by  :(
I desperately try to find half a day since one month for the final check/order of the V2 pcb...
Moving the studio (and private house) take me more time than expected, i'm over busy. I'm one month late, at least.
Now everything is a the right place..waiting for rebuild  :o

My Studer have 4cm modules, but the wider pcb is 3.4cm (motor driver pcb) it will fit 3.81cm/1.5in channel

Best
Zam

Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 11, 2017, 06:26:44 AM
Hi all

2017 update...
I'm sorry to take so long for this, but the studio relocation eat all my time past months...
Now it's better, I double/triple check the revised pcb and I just order them :)

I order 15 pcb set (one set is for 8 fader), I think I will let go 10 to 12 for this first batch, I need at least two and one is reserved for the software creator.

More info soon  ;)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 13, 2017, 03:20:58 PM
I'm in!
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 13, 2017, 05:25:31 PM
I'm in!

yeah  :)
at least one set locked for you as say by PM  ;)

I will tell price as soon as pcb arrives here with vat and custom fees,
as all requested documentation.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 19, 2017, 08:59:28 AM
Hi all

 ;)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Marko on January 19, 2017, 09:19:58 AM
Great!!!  :)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 19, 2017, 03:07:29 PM
Hi

demo of the day...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jub2WdGA3XI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jub2WdGA3XI)

it's a short loop at DAW so there is some glitch
audio is 6 single waves/note (previously recorded from my virusB)

try to forget the crap camera and S/N  :-X

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 20, 2017, 01:11:44 PM
Wow!
Great piece of music!
I'm super impressed with how user friendly it is. This really turns the faders into an instrument. That is all I've ever dreamed of.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 21, 2017, 12:37:19 PM
Wow!
Great piece of music!
I'm super impressed with how user friendly it is. This really turns the faders into an instrument. That is all I've ever dreamed of.

Hi gato

Thanks ! not sure this music is so great here... it's just a (third) kind of quote... for fun  8)

here is a second one which show better how grouping is handled at user interface, also some demo waves/random ramps/random steps
-left hand blue button create group
-second one suppress group
-third is suspend group
-at right hand, blue button is just a shift function for the select
-the blink blue is a PANIC, disable all motor at hardware side (no midi data involved here) useful when playing back a stereo mixdown in the same DAW/computer without having to deactivate ALL automation play

It's how I set it now, but all button/led are fully assignable to whatever you want (multi layer is possible)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1pEPkPZZaE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1pEPkPZZaE)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on January 22, 2017, 07:54:08 PM
I clapped.  Great job Zam.  Its awesome.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 23, 2017, 06:09:54 AM
I clapped.  Great job Zam.  Its awesome.

Thank you Rocinante !

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: pahstah on January 23, 2017, 10:44:21 AM
Simply wonderful!!

Paolo
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 23, 2017, 11:20:20 AM
Simply wonderful!!

Paolo

Hello Paolo

Many thanks !
I already lock 1 set for you, as promised few month ago ...
As the console builder you are (amazing work btw), i'll really like to saw this loaded in your desk, I can't have better feedback than this...
I also have to contact Ian with his tube mixer, not sure he comes around this corner.
I'll update soon with details

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: pahstah on January 24, 2017, 05:45:25 AM
Hello Paolo

Many thanks !
I already lock 1 set for you, as promised few month ago ...
As the console builder you are (amazing work btw), i'll really like to saw this loaded in your desk, I can't have better feedback than this...
I also have to contact Ian with his tube mixer, not sure he comes around this corner.
I'll update soon with details

Best
Zam


Thank you Zam!! looking forward to have the set in my hands!!
by the way, i'm currently working on new version of my mixer so the automation would be the perfect companion for it! 8) 8)

Paolo
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 28, 2017, 10:49:51 AM
Hi all

News of the day !
I'm able to use HUI protocol !!!
It's just the first step and I'm not sure I will go further to investigate this as I don't use ProTools, but I downloaded the demo version of midi translator, and now all the fader respond with my DAW in HUI mode  :)
I don't perform intensive test, can't say about the possible extra latency, also HUI is 9 bit so the system is downgraded to 512steps --> 0.2 mm

Voilà  ;)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: metalb00b00 on January 29, 2017, 07:09:15 AM
Hi all

News of the day !
I'm able to use HUI protocol !!!
It's just the first step and I'm not sure I will go further to investigate this as I don't use ProTools, but I downloaded the demo version of midi translator, and now all the fader respond with my DAW in HUI mode  :)
I don't perform intensive test, can't say about the possible extra latency, also HUI is 9 bit so the system is downgraded to 512steps --> 0.2 mm

Voilà  ;)

Best
Zam

HUI fader data width is 10 bit (1024 steps)
The MIDI bytes to send the fader channel 1 data:

0xB0 0x2F 0x40
0xB0 0x00 MSB
0xB0 0x20 LSB

in C++ language, the most significant bit and least significant bit can be calculated with this formula:

MSB = ((1023 + i) >> 3) & 0x7F;
LSB = ((1023 + i) << 4) & 0x7F;

i = fader wiper voltage converted to a 10 bit digital value
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 29, 2017, 08:01:24 AM
Hi metalb00b00

Ok, lets go further then, with some precisions

HUI is tweaked midi (as you show) it act more or less like RPN/NRPN, so its a 14 bit message
At 89MotioN the software MIOS send/receive 14bit PB midi data, AD and DA for analog motor driver are 12bit
With my DAW which is Digital Performer, using MCU actually send/receive full range pitchbend value (RPN 14bit)
checked with 30 min automation ramp, it increment whithin 1 in the 14384 steps)
Now in HUI mode my DAW only send  MSB  0-127(7bit) steps and LSB is 4 steps (in 7bit format...) value 0-31-63-95 only
it end with 128x4 possible value 512steps, 9 bit

Here is where come my math

BUT if other DAW handle better or full(14bit)  definition by sending/receiving HUI type fader data you will have better than 512 steps
I don't have Protools, I can't test this  :-\

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 29, 2017, 08:13:39 AM
additional note:

MIOS is unable to handle the tweaked HUI data, that's why I try a translator that can handle row midi data

I just convert pitchbend to row data "0xb0 0x0n 0x(low) 0xb0 0x2n 0x(hi)" (n=fader from 0 to 7)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: gato on January 29, 2017, 10:32:18 AM
I have pro tools. Send me some boards!  ;)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: metalb00b00 on January 29, 2017, 11:40:06 AM
additional note:

MIOS is unable to handle the tweaked HUI data, that's why I try a translator that can handle row midi data

I just convert pitchbend to row data "0xb0 0x0n 0x(low) 0xb0 0x2n 0x(hi)" (n=fader from 0 to 7)

that's your error. you're sending the least significant bit first instead of the most significant bit.
see the example i gave for channel fader 1.

edit: added a link for a video capture of a HUI fader app I wrote in '03 controlling a channel fader in Pro Tools 10.

http://sendvid.com/limwg1dg
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on January 29, 2017, 12:43:25 PM
that's your error. you're sending the least significant bit first instead of the most significant bit.
see the example i gave for channel fader 1.

Hi

yes! it's a typo sorry... inverting value make the physical fader only have 4 positions, but toggled 128 time in a full fader move at DAW :)
I repeat the 9 bit limitation is at my DAW side, HUI driver don't send all LSB values in the 0x00 to 0x77 range... but only 4 value
 
example, HUI full fade-in:
0x00 0x00
0x00 0x20
0x00 0x40
0x00 0x60
0x01 0x00
0x01 0x20
0x01 0x40
0x01 0x60
...
0x77 0x00
0x77 0x20
0x77 0x40
0x77 0x60
total 512 steps / 9 bit

While RPN 0 0 (pitchbend) used by MCU send
0x00 0x00
0x00 0x01
0x00 0x02
0x00 0x03
...
0x77 0x75
0x77 0x76
0x77 0x77
total 16384 steps / 14 bit

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on February 09, 2017, 11:42:42 AM
Hi all.

Still interested  :)
http://midibox.org/forums/topic/20390-midibox-89motion-fader-automation/ (http://midibox.org/forums/topic/20390-midibox-89motion-fader-automation/)

 ;)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on March 04, 2017, 09:13:34 AM
Hi all

V2 fully populated, just before final assembly  :)

6 pcb kit left !

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: EvilFuzz on March 12, 2017, 09:11:01 AM
PM)
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on March 21, 2017, 04:07:03 PM
Hi all

Finally 16 faders :)

(audio at fader 9 and 10 only)

https://youtu.be/Z9vLD8GdzgM (https://youtu.be/Z9vLD8GdzgM)

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Marko on March 21, 2017, 04:30:24 PM
...absolutely fantastic!!
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on March 25, 2017, 10:05:47 AM
...absolutely fantastic!!

Thank Marko  :)

Since one week I'm mixing/producing songs with friend with the new steup.
16 faders is just a dream to work with, this was my end goal to fit all mono channels, and asap finish the wiring of 12VCA card I have for the stereo channels post fader insert (already tested and work well with the 12bit DAC).
But now I'm hardly thinking to add fader automation at my 6 stereo channels and 4 stereo aux return...

Also I beta test an implemented solo safe function (software side).
It use banking and multi layer at led/button to select a channel solo safe status with the solo button.
As word say, it avoid channel mute (analogue side) if a solo is pressed at any other channel.

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: Rocinante on March 25, 2017, 12:40:23 PM
Stereo channels seem like a good addition but imo aux and for that matter master fader would be unnecessary. How often do you adjust the aux faders?  Do you have a lot of outboard reverbs?  For me personally any adjustment is on the delay or reverb unit itself with maybe adjustments on the actual channel aux. Damn half the time i use it only during recording to give the client a wet mix. I dont own a bricasti though.
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on March 25, 2017, 10:42:50 PM
Stereo channels seem like a good addition but imo aux and for that matter master fader would be unnecessary. How often do you adjust the aux faders?  Do you have a lot of outboard reverbs?  For me personally any adjustment is on the delay or reverb unit itself with maybe adjustments on the actual channel aux. Damn half the time i use it only during recording to give the client a wet mix. I dont own a bricasti though.

Hey

My Aux return modules are closes to stereo modules, with full EQ etc... it happen I use them like stereo channels
Also I like to play with different space, meaning  manual move at aux return faders, or cut at the master/bus send from these channels. I basically hook a Lex 80 and two springs (including  a BX20), and my virus B syth, which play sound from here or like  FX box as it have audio in too (from aux send).

Best
Zam
Title: Re: DIY fader automation interest ?
Post by: zamproject on April 19, 2017, 11:07:58 AM
Hello

Some update

VCA's finally wired to the system  8)
I decide to only involve 8 CV to drive the 12 VCAs, 4 VCA "mono" and 4 VCA "stereo" (linked CV by pair)
So now in addition of 16 motor fader I have patchable VCA (for stereo channels or anything I want to automate).

As it is implemented in the exact same manner as faders (same 12bit DAC, same pcb) and with the use of dedicated map at software side, the tracking between passive (motor) fader track and VCA is supper accurate... as the VCA gain which I set like a fader, -100dB to +10 dB.
The math give 110dB/4096(12bit)=0.027dB steps, which is more or less what I can measure when the DAW allow so small adjust (top of fader)

Test with stereo material, L with VCA insert post fader, fader at unity (no motor engaged), R with motor fader.
Both grouped at DAW side so when I move motor fader the VCA follow. I can't ear any pan shifting  :)
With very fast automation (bellow 100ms full travel) the fader is 10 time slower than VCA so there is  a fade delay between track's.
It's possible to solve this at soft or hard side to slow the CV ramp driving the VCA, but I won't do it, fast VCA can be usefull for fast dynamic automation, like tremolo, rotary pan, pattern gate, and maybe "creative" compression as I can trig midi at DAW or with my DS301 (have to test this !!!) and for normal volume automation I don't go so fast so it's fine to me like this.

Best
Zam