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Project Specific Discussions => Microphones => Topic started by: RuudNL on July 06, 2018, 05:37:08 AM

Title: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 06, 2018, 05:37:08 AM
In the past I have used a couple of Pronomic SCM-1 microphones, sold by Kirstein in Germany.
These microphones are cheap but produce a very reasonable quality, certainly considering the price.
The only disadvantage they have, is a 'bump' of +/- 5 dB around 7-8 KHz.
But it seems they recently improved the microphone capsule.
The new type (that at first glance looks very similar to the Banzai KM84 body+capsule kit) doesn't have this peak.
The new capsule head has small round holes in front of the capsule.
Only thing to improve is the FET bias, in my sample is was possible to optimize distortion/max. SPL. (0.1% to 0.02% THD)
Great value for money!

https://www.kirstein.de/nl/Live-Studio/Microfoons/Kleinmembraan-Microfoon/Pronomic-SCM-1-kleinmembraan-microfoon-zilver.html
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: lampas on July 06, 2018, 02:45:34 PM
Could you post the photo of the complete microphone ? Thanks.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on July 06, 2018, 04:32:33 PM
Sounds really interesting if you can get a great sounding SDC for that price. Have you compared them to the iSK Pearl?

Is the mic cardioid or super cardioid?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on July 06, 2018, 05:36:51 PM
Hi Ruud,

How have you corrected the bias for the fet?  I have not seen any possibility to adjust it.

Thanks and best wishes

Reiner
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 06, 2018, 05:40:04 PM
Where there's a will, there's a way ;)

And by "will", i mean a soldering iron, a trimpot and a bit of creativity ;D

Hi Ruud,

How have you corrected the bias for the fet?  I have not seen any possibility to adjust it.

Thanks and best wishes

Reiner
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on July 06, 2018, 07:15:35 PM
I guess these capsules fit our Sub Zero friends Ruud? Mxl603 etc.

And if ordered from Kirstein, they arive with new ones, not the standard ones on the pictures on their site?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 07, 2018, 06:00:28 AM
"Could you post the photo of the complete microphone ?"
A picture of the microphone (with the "old" capsule) is on the website of Kirstein.

"Is the mic cardioid or super cardioid?"
The microphone is advertised as cardioid, but opinions differ...

"Have you compared them to the iSK Pearl?"
No, I don't have an iSK Pearl to compare it with

"How have you corrected the bias for the fet?  I have not seen any possibility to adjust it. "
The FET is biased with a 100K and a 220 K (SMD) resistor.
I took out the resistors and replaced them with a small (cermet) trimpot.
I guess you could only take out the 100K and put a trimpot in place, because in my microphones the value of the 100 K appeared too high for a correct bias.

"I guess these capsules fit our Sub Zero friends Ruud?"
I think the diameter of the Subzero capsules isn't the same as the diameter of the Pronomic capsules.
(I think the Subzero's are bigger.) But I will try it today and let you know.

EDIT:
To my surprise I noticed that the Pronomic capsules DO indeed fit the Subzero microphones!
The backplate pin of the Pronomic capsule is a little bit shorter than the Subzero, but I got a good contact with the pin inside the body of the Subzero.
So: it works!

"if ordered from Kirstein, they arive with new ones?"
It seems that during the last months they only have microphones with the "new" capsules.
I ordered a pair this week.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on July 07, 2018, 07:30:31 AM
Thanks a million!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on July 07, 2018, 10:55:07 AM
Thanks for the tip, I'll try them out!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on July 07, 2018, 02:38:24 PM
Thanks !
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on July 08, 2018, 08:00:15 PM
So it's advertised as cardioid but opinions vary on whether or not it's cardioid, super, or somewhere in between? I'm guessing it's at least somewhat similar directionally to the Samson C02s then.

And this new capsule doesn't have the big presence boost a lot of cheap mics have? Does that mean that it's relatively flat? If so I might check it out, though my interest in small diaphragm mics is for portable voice over mics and potentially indoor booming and sound effects, but mainly voice over. Like something I could throw in a bag with a portable recorder and laptop to record something quickly if I'm away from home and need to record something.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 09, 2018, 04:06:44 AM
They are a lot better than the Samson CO2 microphones.
I once had a pair of Samsons, but they were so noisy that I returned them to the seller the same day!
The Pronomics are real (externally polarised) condenser microphones, the Samsons are electrets.
And yes, the new ones have a pretty flat frequency response.
I did a blind test with a collegue of mine (recording engineer), with the Pronomic and the Neumann KM84.
His answer was: "If there is any difference, I can't hear it".
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: analogguru on July 09, 2018, 10:30:13 AM
Quote
"Could you post the photo of the complete microphone ?"
A picture of the microphone (with the "old" capsule) is on the website of Kirstein.
Hmmm..... and how does the microphone look  inside ?  ;)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on July 09, 2018, 10:54:55 AM
I guess it's just matter of time until we find origin of these capsules


https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F202266409962
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 09, 2018, 11:53:40 AM
Yes, those capsules look exactly the same!
(And knowing Microphone-Parts, I guess they cost a fraction of the price he is selling them for!  ;) )
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 09, 2018, 11:56:56 AM
Hmmm..... and how does the microphone look  inside ?  ;)

Lots of SMD components inside! (I am not going to take my microphones apart again to take a picture...)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 09, 2018, 03:19:29 PM
Hi Ruud

did you compare them to Banzai ?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: JuanV on July 09, 2018, 04:02:03 PM
Hmmm..... and how does the microphone look  inside ?  ;)

I will do, ordered.... waiting for delivery :)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on July 09, 2018, 11:02:02 PM
Are there any stores in North America that offer it, or that ship to North America? The linked store doesn't have any info on shipping to the US and Canada. If there are rebrands using the same new capsule I'd check those out too.

The thread on the mic from a few years ago suggests that the Takstar CM-60 might be similar to the older ones. The supplied frequency response by Takstar on AliExpress looks like it has a +2 dB boost between 2-3 KHz, a 2 dB dip at 4 KHz, then boost around +4 dB boost at around 7 KHz.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 10, 2018, 02:52:45 AM
The supplied frequency response by Takstar on AliExpress looks like it has a +2 dB boost between 2-3 KHz, a 2 dB dip at 4 KHz, then boost around +4 dB boost at around 7 KHz.

In general, I don't believe a word of a frequency response graph on the internet!
Especially if the graph is published by an unknown manufacturer/brand.
(Usually it is an almost flat line between 20 Hz and 20 KHz that looks too good to be true!)
And indeed: the 'old' version of the Prononic SCM-1 was very similar to the Takstar CM-60.
I suppose they are made in the same (Chinese) factory.
The fact that Microphone Parts offers these capsules, proves that it is a commercial product.

I am really happy with the quality of the 'new' capsules and I will compare them with the 'Banzai' ones.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Erik2345 on July 10, 2018, 03:51:05 AM
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Top-quality-Takstar-CM-60-professional-recording-microphone-Aforementioned-Type-Condenser-Microphone-for-musical-instrument/32823205728.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_0_10152_10151_10618_10059_10696_10084_100031_10083_10624_10304_10821_10843_10623_10307_10846_524_10341_10065_10340_10068_10343_10342_10301_10103_10620_10344_10820_10622_10621,searchweb201603_0,ppcSwitch_0&algo_pvid=43972c5a-924d-4b32-85ac-7e14e7a87f2d&algo_expid=43972c5a-924d-4b32-85ac-7e14e7a87f2d-7

http://www.takstar.com/en/product/detail-16-79-7-479

Even cheaper at ali..24,74Euro
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 10, 2018, 04:28:16 AM
Yes, but (anyway on the picture) this one still has the 'old' capsules!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on July 10, 2018, 06:20:57 AM
https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/Top-quality-Takstar-CM-60-professional-recording-microphone-Aforementioned-Type-Condenser-Microphone-for-musical-instrument/32823205728.html?ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_0_10152_10151_10618_10059_10696_10084_100031_10083_10624_10304_10821_10843_10623_10307_10846_524_10341_10065_10340_10068_10343_10342_10301_10103_10620_10344_10820_10622_10621,searchweb201603_0,ppcSwitch_0&algo_pvid=43972c5a-924d-4b32-85ac-7e14e7a87f2d&algo_expid=43972c5a-924d-4b32-85ac-7e14e7a87f2d-7

http://www.takstar.com/en/product/detail-16-79-7-479

Even cheaper at ali..24,74Euro
If the new SMC-1s have a much better capsule it's worth the extra money. I'd buy one or a pair if I could find English language stores shipping to North America stocking them. On amazon.ca it's $100 CDN (so like $75 USD) for one of them. It's probably only $60 CDN + shipping if I buy a single one. The Amazon price could probably buy me a pair of them.

Sure, you could buy a Takstar and then buy the linked capsule from eBay, but then you're already spending around what you'd spend on the SCM-1. The Takstars cost around $45 USD, and those capsules look to be around $20, so you'd be spending just as much to get the same result. And the SCM-1 specs seem like they'd be more reliable. 30-18,000 Hz seems a lot more realistic than 30-20,000 Hz for a small diaphragm mic like that.

I'm actually surprised how many awesome mics you can find in Europe. In the USA and especially Canada it seems like MXL, Behringer, and a couple  Audio Technica and CAD mics are the only real budget options. Now that's where buying online helps, but it's not always an option if things don't ship to your country.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: analogguru on July 10, 2018, 07:15:45 AM
Quote
Sure, you could buy a Takstar and then buy the linked capsule from eBay, but then you're already spending around what you'd spend on the SCM-1.
I can also buy a Takstar and speculate that the picture is outdated.  Who do you think is producing the SCM-1 ?

Pronomic ? is only a brand name, you can also have your name printed on the mics if you buy enough. 

Kirstein ? LOL, they don't even look inside the boxes shipped from China and therefore they don't put another capsule inside....
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 10, 2018, 07:30:28 AM
For what it's worth, i know Gear4Music in the UK sells some rebranded Takstar stuff. Can't quite tell if Takstar is a / the OEM, but...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: analogguru on July 10, 2018, 08:25:23 AM
For what it's worth, i know Gear4Music in the UK sells some rebranded Takstar stuff. Can't quite tell if Takstar is a / the OEM, but...
At least they (claim to) have a factory with 1000 employes:
http://www.takstar.com/en/profile/3

and even a R & D team:
http://www.takstar.com/en/profile/4
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 10, 2018, 09:29:03 AM
Yes, of course "Pronomic" is just a name for the Kirstein products, they will be produced by a known microphone manufacturer somewhere in China. And the "Takstar" CM-60 looks almost the same as the Pronomic SCM-1.
But I have no idea if the Takstar microphones have also updated the capsule.
I wouldn't take the risk!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 11, 2018, 08:51:40 AM
I agree they Are very usable, I just tested my mic,  sounds pretty good, not tons of detail, not spectacular, but also not annoying.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on July 11, 2018, 05:41:16 PM
Damn, i am on a vacation for 5 more weeks, i hope they won't be out of stock.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: shot on July 11, 2018, 06:17:45 PM
So what would be better pick - SubZero or Pronomic?
Considering that both will be modded even before the first use...

:)

Luka
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 11, 2018, 06:27:16 PM
I guess the better (or more accurate) question would be, which one has the better capsule? :)

Since the electronics are all but "expendable"... ;D (ie. going to be modded, if not replaced altogether)

So what would be better pick - SubZero or Pronomic?
Considering that both will be modded even before the first use...

:)

Luka
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 11, 2018, 06:32:07 PM
So what would be better pick - SubZero or Pronomic?
Considering that both will be modded even before the first use...

:)

Luka

actually I like them how they are, I won't mod nothing
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 11, 2018, 06:33:12 PM
and when I'm bored I might throw in a 6s6b
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: shot on July 11, 2018, 06:44:21 PM
actually I like them how they are, I won't mod nothing

You're talking about Pronomic, right?
Not even adjust bias as Ruud suggested?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on July 12, 2018, 03:55:06 AM
Pronomic and Takstar are smd, SubZero is not ;)

SubZero us still a good pick, and front grille that causes 7k peak can be shaved off with an angle grinder. But one has to make some kind of mesh in front of membrane, which usualy leaves you with an ugly mic. 

That 7k peak can be usefull on snare, toms, and other things that benefit from boost in that area.

SubZero has a pad. Not very well implemented one, but it has it.

However i would like to have Pronomic capsule as well.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 12, 2018, 05:06:35 AM
I personally like smd, it needs a little training but it is easier for rework and modding
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: JuanV on July 13, 2018, 07:27:42 AM
Received, inside photos.
I'll do better photos later with Nikon.

(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f6/1d/4v3Qap0V_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/4v3Qap0V) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/8a/09/quBchrI0_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/quBchrI0) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/47/2d/PZ5IIMix_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/PZ5IIMix) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/87/48/7dMEmDQr_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/7dMEmDQr) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/a0/3d/63pORPAn_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/63pORPAn)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: analogguru on July 13, 2018, 08:53:15 AM
Many thanks for the pictures !!!
Interesting the unassembled pad-switch and the 1G-SMD-resistors.... they must be cheap - I want some....
No stabilization for the FET ?
Floating/popping low-cut-filter ?
Normal diodes at the output ?

BTW, someone soldered new transistors for Q1/Q3....
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 13, 2018, 09:16:15 AM
They're not quite THAT cheap - they added an extra (filter?) inductor (L2) at the input of the DC-DC converter ;D And what might be a small common-mode choke right at the XLR input/output (the thing that has white "gunk" around it)...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 13, 2018, 01:14:28 PM
It might be a good idea to remove some flux residue, especially around the high-z input.
(My microphones had lots of flux all over the place.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 13, 2018, 06:06:33 PM
Those output transistors, have you replaced them? Or were they just hand-soldered (or hand-reworked) at the factory?

That source resistor on the edge of the board makes (more) sense,  since the bias varies with each individual JFET...

Received, inside photos.
I'll do better photos later with Nikon.

(https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/f6/1d/4v3Qap0V_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/4v3Qap0V) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/8a/09/quBchrI0_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/quBchrI0) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/47/2d/PZ5IIMix_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/PZ5IIMix) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/87/48/7dMEmDQr_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/7dMEmDQr) (https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/a0/3d/63pORPAn_t.jpg) (http://imgbox.com/63pORPAn)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: JuanV on July 14, 2018, 05:07:23 AM
I did not replace anything, it's stock photo after delivered to me.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 16, 2018, 02:14:21 PM
With a cutter you can remove the pronomic sign without scratches
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on July 17, 2018, 10:54:16 AM
With a cutter you can remove the pronomic sign without scratches

Nitro solvent is much easier and safer to remove logo ;)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 17, 2018, 11:35:58 AM
Nitro solvent is much easier and safer to remove logo ;)
true :)

I did a couple of test with the mic but I didn't compare, usually i get annoyed of the sound of mics after a while. For instance  MBHO or Rode or Oktava or this very same mic with the old capsule. But with the new capsule I must admit, I like  them very much. They sound like no need for any eq to my ears.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 17, 2018, 04:10:09 PM
I still want to measure and compare the Banzai "KM84" capsule and the Pronomic.
But busy, busy, busy...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 18, 2018, 07:34:58 AM
I finally measured the "Banzai" capsule and the (new) Pronomic capsule.
The frequency response matched almost exactly! ( A centimeter difference in position can already make a difference.)
So I have the impression that they are made by the same manufacturer.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: JuanV on July 18, 2018, 08:03:09 AM
So update pronomic mic with Banzai PCB (not available i guess) can do some improvements ?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on July 18, 2018, 08:41:39 AM
So update pronomic mic with Banzai PCB (not available i guess) can do some improvements ?
I think the capsule is the important part. So buying a similar capsule to the Banzai one and installing it on an older Pronomic SCM-1 would be an improvement. The PCB would probably be less so because it seems that the capsule was the problem (or rather a bright installed in a circuit with no HF de-emphasis). Because the new SCM-1 is very balanced/neutral it's probably that the Banzai capsules are designed to be really flat sounding. Unless the new mics have a new circuit with HF de-emphasis but then why change the capsule?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 18, 2018, 08:57:05 AM
Circuit of the "old" and "new" Pronomic microphones is (almost) the same.
The old ones had a trimpot to adjust the FET bias.
But both microphones are based on the "Schoeps" circuit, with a DC/DC converter for the polarisation voltage.
If Banzai is planning to sell the capsules separately (I think he mentioned this already), this capsule would be a great update for the "old" Pronomic or Takstar CM-60 microphones.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: JuanV on July 18, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
I thought replace pronomic PCB with Banzai PCB with transformer - different circuit. Without changing capsule. But i do not know if banzai circuit is better than pronomic.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 18, 2018, 11:51:22 AM
The Banzai circuit is the original Neumann KM84 circuit.
Personally I wouldn't go through all this trouble (expensive transformer!), because the stock Pronomic SCM-1 is good as it is.
(Anyway for me...  A transformer doesn't add quality, I prefer a transformerless circuit.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 18, 2018, 11:58:27 AM
I agree with Ruud. The mic sounds just fine. Btw a Schoeps also sounds fine and  has no transformer. One of my mics needed a pcb wash and I will bias the FET if I have time. I guess  the Banzai capsule and the new pronomic are identical ...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: homero.leal on July 18, 2018, 01:16:36 PM
The Banzai circuit is the original Neumann KM84 circuit.
Personally I wouldn't go through all this trouble (expensive transformer!), because the stock Pronomic SCM-1 is good as it is.
(Anyway for me...  A transformer doesn't add quality, I prefer a transformerless circuit.)

RuudNL,

Some time ago I published a Transformerless KM-84 schenmatic on the MicBuilders forum, if you want to give it a look.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/micbuilders/files/Homero%20Leal%27s%20Files/Transformerless%20KM-84%20Refresh/
 (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/micbuilders/files/Homero%20Leal%27s%20Files/Transformerless%20KM-84%20Refresh/)

It works pretty well. I also have some PCBs left for BM-800/700 or MXL mic bodies,  if some want to try it.

Regards!

HL
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 19, 2018, 11:12:13 AM
Sorry, I can't find it.
It says:

"Oops!
You need to be a member to perform this action. "

Well, I am a member (and logged in), so I don't know what went wrong.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: homero.leal on July 19, 2018, 11:54:56 AM
Ohh... that's strange... but anyway, i uploaded the schematic to my gdrive.

Try this link:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XbRknHqym6CZcVSylNRdk2m7URl4wEc/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10XbRknHqym6CZcVSylNRdk2m7URl4wEc/view?usp=sharing)

For the actual build, I used:
- 39pF mica  cap for C14.
- 5k6 for R6.
- Jumper wire for R19.
- And 0.1uf film cap for C11.

Kind regards!

HL
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on July 19, 2018, 02:03:29 PM
Thanks.
Some remarks about a couple of  things that come to mind at first sight:

- I don't really see the point of using 3 resistors (R17, R18, R19). I suppose two 10 M.ohm resistors would do the same.
- The filtering for the polarisation voltage is a bit extreme.  0.1 uF + 1 G.ohm will cause a very long charge time!
(Something in the order of 100 seconds or more than 1.5 minute!)
- Personally, I don't like OpAmps in microphone circuits, but it has been done before, so it will probably work.

For the rest it is basically a KM84 circuit with an OpAmp buffer, so I don't expect real problems.
I suppose this will be a "high output" microphone, because in the KM84 a step down transformer is used, but in this design there is even 6 dB gain after the FET. But maybe this is already compensated by C14.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 19, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
Just to chip in real quick, i'd personally lean towards using a dual opamp instead of two singles :)
Less board space, less traces to route, and potentially even lower current draw, as well as cost.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: homero.leal on July 19, 2018, 03:55:25 PM
Yes Khron, I agree... originally, schematic had a dual unit OpAmp... but this design requires a very low quiescent current OpAmp.

I found the OPA145 that uses just 0.475mA per unit, but I could not find the dual version of it. So I had to stick with the single unit version.

To save space, I placed one OPA on the top, and the other at the bottom of the PCB.

I also considered OPA1692, but it's very tiny, may be for a next version.

If you have more options on low current Opas,  that could work, plz let me know!

Regards!

HL





Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: homero.leal on July 19, 2018, 03:59:30 PM
- I don't really see the point of using 3 resistors (R17, R18, R19). I suppose two 10 M.ohm resistors would do the same.
- The filtering for the polarisation voltage is a bit extreme.  0.1 uF + 1 G.ohm will cause a very long charge time!
(Something in the order of 100 seconds or more than 1.5 minute!)

Yes RuudNL, you are right.

I suppose this will be a "high output" microphone, because in the KM84 a step down transformer is used, but in this design there is even 6 dB gain after the FET. But maybe this is already compensated by C14.

Yes, that's the reason C14 is 39p on my actual build.

Regards!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on July 19, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
How about something like the good old MC33178? Max 1.4-1.6mA quiescent in total, according to the datasheet. 65 eurocents one-off from Mouser. OPA145's 2.18 euros (and you need TWO) :P

MAX4494's 1.07eu, although limited to an 11V supply, and 0.77-1.1mA quiescent draw.

OP282's 2.77eu, only 500uA quiescent max total, but has a bit higher noise density than the others.

LM6132's 3eu, 800uA quiescent total, and same as the one above.

LM6142's 3.5eu, 1.6mA quiescent total, but lower noise than the two previous ones.


Yes Khron, I agree... originally, schematic had a dual unit OpAmp... but this design requires a very low quiescent current OpAmp.

I found the OPA145 that uses just 0.475mA per unit, but I could not find the dual version of it. So I had to stick with the single unit version.

To save space, I placed one OPA on the top, and the other at the bottom of the PCB.

I also considered OPA1692, but it's very tiny, may be for a next version.

If you have more options on low current Opas,  that could work, plz let me know!

Regards!

HL
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 24, 2018, 04:58:05 AM
so what do you all think about the mic ?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Vac11 on July 26, 2018, 04:15:01 PM
Today I tested this mic. Im positively suprised. This mic sound fine as is. It look like polarisation voltage is cca 50V. Now I want to try this capsule with S52 tube circuit from Piotr...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 27, 2018, 07:43:57 AM
Could you post that Pjotr circuit?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Vac11 on July 27, 2018, 07:48:38 AM
Of course:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=63436.msg803459#msg803459
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 27, 2018, 09:06:29 AM
Cool. Does the neutrik fit the body ?  Maybe  doing it smd is a good idea and maybe  6s6b
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Vac11 on July 27, 2018, 09:31:18 AM
Yes, I want to do it with 6S6B tube...i have one Neutrik tranformer at home, so I have to try it. But I think it will fit...it is realy small.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on July 28, 2018, 02:01:38 PM
After doing now quite a number of recordings with this mic I have to say I’m very impressed. If you are looking for a mic which capture more than what you hear. More low end or more details. That’s not your mic. But if you do like recordings without the need of eq. Get a pair of these mics. Thank you Ruud that was a very good tip
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: L´Andratté on July 28, 2018, 03:50:18 PM
+1
Good two of them too, did not play with them that much yet, but I´m pleased!
Thanks, RuudNL for a great pointer!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: McIrish on August 01, 2018, 03:01:02 PM
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Top-quality-Takstar-CM-60-professional-recording-microphone-Aforementioned-Type-Condenser-Microphone-for-musical-instrument/1241205_32823205728.html?spm=2114.search0604.8.29.781b5580tPolT9&priceBeautifyAB=0#feedback (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Top-quality-Takstar-CM-60-professional-recording-microphone-Aforementioned-Type-Condenser-Microphone-for-musical-instrument/1241205_32823205728.html?spm=2114.search0604.8.29.781b5580tPolT9&priceBeautifyAB=0#feedback)

I bought this one. Once I get it in a month, I will be able to see if it has the newer capsule. Even if it doesn't, I might find some use for it.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: rodaffleck on August 02, 2018, 10:23:32 AM
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Top-quality-Takstar-CM-60-professional-recording-microphone-Aforementioned-Type-Condenser-Microphone-for-musical-instrument/1241205_32823205728.html?spm=2114.search0604.8.29.781b5580tPolT9&priceBeautifyAB=0#feedback (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Top-quality-Takstar-CM-60-professional-recording-microphone-Aforementioned-Type-Condenser-Microphone-for-musical-instrument/1241205_32823205728.html?spm=2114.search0604.8.29.781b5580tPolT9&priceBeautifyAB=0#feedback)

I bought this one. Once I get it in a month, I will be able to see if it has the newer capsule. Even if it doesn't, I might find some use for it.

A number of the reviewers have uploaded pictures along with the reviews, the most recent one being from July 6 2018. Unfortunately it clearly shows the older style capsule in the photo.

I'm in the same boat as Icantthinkofaname--I would love to be able to get a couple of mics with the new capsules at a reasonable price here in North America. Contemplating ordering a couple from the mic-parts ebay auction; while they no doubt have a markup, $25US for the capsule isn't that far off what I've seen for standard MXL and Monoprice replacement capsules so it's not outrageous. But that said, if there was a complete mic with new capsule available for the same price as the Pronomic that would be much preferable so if anyone has any leads please let us know!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: McIrish on August 02, 2018, 10:54:38 AM
Well, that is a letdown.  :( But maybe this is the correct capsule?https://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-diaphragm-SDC-condenser-microphone-capsule-MXL-CAD-style/202266409962?hash=item2f18047bea%3Ag%3ArfUAAOSwKJtasFWE&_sacat=0&_nkw=SDC+Capsules&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Small-diaphragm-SDC-condenser-microphone-capsule-MXL-CAD-style/202266409962?hash=item2f18047bea%3Ag%3ArfUAAOSwKJtasFWE&_sacat=0&_nkw=SDC+Capsules&_from=R40&rt=nc&LH_TitleDesc=0)
Still, it's hard to go wrong with a $25 investment.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on August 13, 2018, 04:41:02 PM
Here is a recording I did. XY with the scum-1 and a sound devices mixpre3. Church organ detuned drone dub. Mic positioning is not very good. The one mic points to the corner the other to the space of the  small gothic cathedral. https://wolke7.grandprixdamour.com/index.php/s/d27Y2xlntOzvRQg (https://wolke7.grandprixdamour.com/index.php/s/d27Y2xlntOzvRQg)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 14, 2018, 02:15:43 PM
Can anyone confirm if the mic still shipps with new capsule?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on August 14, 2018, 04:55:10 PM
4 weeks ago, yes
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 15, 2018, 03:22:41 AM
I can confirm this.
And I suppose that they currently still sell the same version.
(I don't order microphones every day!  :) )
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 15, 2018, 04:32:18 PM
I'll keep checking eBay to see if someone sells on of these. I'd really like one but I can't understand German, and I couldn't find any shipping rates to North America.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on August 15, 2018, 04:35:40 PM
They DO have an english version of the site, y'know ;) See the little flag on the top edge?

https://www.kirstein.de/en/Live-Studio/Microphones/Small-diaphragm-Microphones/Pronomic-SCM-1-Small-Diaphragm-Microphone-Silver.html

That being said, they might not ship outside Europe, as far as i can tell :-\

I'll keep checking eBay to see if someone sells on of these. I'd really like one but I can't understand German, and I couldn't find any shipping rates to North America.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 17, 2018, 04:58:33 AM
Messaged them and no shipping to Canada. I doubt they ship to the US either.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 17, 2018, 05:46:29 AM
Maybe you could ask a forum member in Europe to buy one or more for you, and ask to send them to your place?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: shabtek on August 17, 2018, 05:41:06 PM
I bought a micparts capsule and it is the standard mxl capsule with woven mesh— NOT the one with perforated sheet-stock resonator screen, as pictured.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: McIrish on August 17, 2018, 06:01:02 PM
I bought a micparts capsule and it is the standard mxl capsule with woven mesh— NOT the one with perforated sheet-stock resonator screen, as pictured.
that's good to know.  I won't be going that route.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 18, 2018, 04:36:45 AM
I bought a micparts capsule and it is the standard mxl capsule with woven mesh— NOT the one with perforated sheet-stock resonator screen, as pictured.

Since the delivered capsule doesn't match the picture, I would send it back and reclaim my money!
(Mmm...  why am I not surprised? The seller is Microphone-Parts, isn't it?)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: shabtek on August 18, 2018, 10:46:00 AM
Ruud, that is my intent--

here is a bit of the exchange:

"We don't have any more of the style with the perforated metal screen. The ones you were sent sound exactly the same, and in many cases, better.

If you'd like to return them, we will refund the purchase price, but for what it's worth, these are what is described in the auction: MXL style small diaphragm capsules. What you received are actually manufactured by MXL."

My interest in linguistic evolution compels me to ask: does anybody know if the statement in bold is a logical fallacy or what it is called? I hear this kind of device used at 'rallies' frequently.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 18, 2018, 11:41:22 AM
My advise: never argue with Matt McGlynn.
He is always right.
And if not, he still is!  ;D
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 18, 2018, 04:22:23 PM
That's really sh*tty. If it's the one that says "MXL/CAD style" there's nothing in the description saying that it's an actual MXL capsule, just that it's a small diaphragm capsule for MXL and CAD style mics. I'd return it, or if he tries to fight you open a case with eBay.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: lampas on August 18, 2018, 05:24:06 PM
I can confirm this.
And I suppose that they currently still sell the same version.
(I don't order microphones every day!  :) )

Yes they do. I got it yesterday, new version.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 19, 2018, 07:05:50 AM
Great to hear that! I recently ordered a couple more.
(It seems they are out of stock at the moment, but will be available soon.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 20, 2018, 01:27:29 AM
ShuaiYin have these in stock. They have mesh instead of grille, but seem like the same thing otherwise.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 20, 2018, 01:28:10 AM
And with mesh removed
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on August 20, 2018, 02:35:18 AM
I suspect the grill  to make the sonic differences. These ones are the old style and the will have a bump  around  7k
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 20, 2018, 07:31:49 AM
Have you guys been asked by kirstein.de to provide passport information in order to receive your mics?

I have ordered and paid two mics few days ago, and today they asked for my passport ID via email in order to ship mics to me. That doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 20, 2018, 09:02:14 AM
Very strange...
From what I read on their website, the SCM-1 is out of stock at the moment, but will be available soon.
I ordered a couple too.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 28, 2018, 10:59:27 AM
Today I received a couple of SDC capsules from Microphone Parts.
To my surprise they look (and sound) exactly the same as the 'Banzai' capsules.
Strange... (Because forum member shabtek received different ones!)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on August 28, 2018, 12:38:59 PM
Today I received a couple of SDC capsules from Microphone Parts.
To my surprise they look (and sound) exactly the same as the 'Banzai' capsules.
Strange... (Because forum member shabtek received different ones!)

What changed your mind Rudolph? :D ;)

Everything from Microphone Farts Parts is way overpriced.
(That is the reason that I will never buy from them...)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 28, 2018, 02:12:38 PM
I needed a couple of these for a collegue.
They seemed to be the only ones of reasonable quality that were available.
As you know, I am not a big fan of Microphone Parts...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 28, 2018, 08:14:05 PM
Today I received a couple of SDC capsules from Microphone Parts.
To my surprise they look (and sound) exactly the same as the 'Banzai' capsules.
Strange... (Because forum member shabtek received different ones!)
How much did those cost? Still trying to avoid Mic-Parts myself.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on August 29, 2018, 06:33:24 AM
I needed a couple of these for a collegue.
They seemed to be the only ones of reasonable quality that were available.
As you know, I am not a big fan of Microphone Parts...

That's why i was surprised, i'm also not a fan.
BTW. did you tried electret TSB2555B which also mparts sells?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 29, 2018, 12:06:56 PM
BTW. did you tried electret TSB2555B which also mparts sells?
Yes, many years ago already. I got them directly from the factory, for a fraction of the price.
Not too bad for an electret capsule. Bit bright though.
As far as I could see, they are also used in the 'Ear Trumpet' microphones.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on August 29, 2018, 01:27:44 PM
Hey Ruud,
how are the capsules then compared to the pronomic ones? Are they all the same?

Cheers
Jannis
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 29, 2018, 02:39:13 PM
how are the capsules then compared to the pronomic ones? Are they all the same?
The 'old' Pronomic capsules had a pronounced HF peak. (~ 5 dB @ 7/8 KHz.)
The MP capsules are the same as the 'new' Pronomic capsules and the 'Banzai' ones, as far as I have heard and measured.
These capsules have a pretty 'flat' frequency response and sound better than the 'old' Pronomic ones.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on August 29, 2018, 03:47:17 PM
Great, thanks for the info!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: craigmorris74 on August 29, 2018, 05:18:40 PM
I tried to order the micparts  version yesterday, but got an email stating they were like the MAP capsules, not the ones pictured, so I got a refund.

Anyone know where I can get the Banzai/Pronomic type capsule in the US?  Or does anyone have an extra they'd like to sell? 

Also, I'd be interested in one of those transformerless km84 boards, homero, if you had more.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 30, 2018, 01:34:33 AM
Anyone have one of the newer Pronomic ones they'd sell? Or be willing to pick one up for me? I'll pay you obviously, Paypal preferred. Located in Ontario, Canada.

The Mic-Parts capsule with the mesh or whatever, not the Banzai like one, has anyone compared it to the new Pronomic/Banzai ones?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 30, 2018, 05:11:28 AM
Why don't you ask a forum member in Europe to order a Pronomic SCM-1 for you, let him calculate the shipping costs to Canada, pay him through Paypal and there you have your SCM-1 microphone!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Vac11 on August 30, 2018, 05:32:28 AM
Im going to order 2 Pronomics in the near future. So if you want, I can order microphone for you and resend it to Ontario... Just send me PM.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: stelin on August 30, 2018, 04:46:16 PM
I got two capsules from micparts  today (from eBay). Ordered about two weeks ago.
They look like the capsules in the eBay picture.
Tried them on my Takstar CM-63 mics tonight. Huge HF-peak around 7-8 KHz!
My CM-63 mics sounds pretty good with the original capsules. Not much different than my KM 184 (but a bit more noise).
Don't buy the micparts capsules! Unless you want a very, very bright mic.
Link to eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/202266409962?euid=null&bu=43022476200&cp=1&sojTags=bu=bu
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 31, 2018, 02:27:35 AM
That is very strange!
I measured them and there was an obvious difference in frequency response.
The ones with the punched metal were measurable (and audible) more 'flat'.
In fact the same as the 'Banzai' capsules.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 31, 2018, 03:39:13 AM
That is very strange!
I measured them and there was an obvious difference in frequency response.
The ones with the punched metal were measurable (and audible) more 'flat'.
In fact the same as the 'Banzai' capsules.
I think they're saying they got the ones with she mesh screen. So not the Banzai looking ones.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 31, 2018, 12:21:10 PM
Correct me if i'm wrong, but shouldn't it be possible to screw off the brass coloured ring and replace mesh with any kind of DIY mesh/grille?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 31, 2018, 01:59:12 PM
Yes, theoretically this should be possible!
As long as you don't sneeze and lose the thin spacer(s) between the diaphragm and the backplate.  ;D
But where do we find fine punctured thin metal plate?
I would measure the capacity of the capsule before disassembly and check afterwards.
Because the pressure of the threaded ring, that holds everything together, changes the capacity.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: craigmorris74 on August 31, 2018, 03:54:41 PM
The 7K problem isn't caused the screen/grill.  It's the distance from the front of the capsule to the diaphragm.  If you look at better sounding  SDC's the diaphragm is much closer to the front of the capsule than the MXL types.

It really isn't that difficult to grind off the front of the capsule and tame that peak.  Take out the inner brass ring, the backplate, and the diaphragm.  Like Ruud says, make sure you don't loose the thin spacer behind the diaphragm, it's super clear and thin.  Pop the inner ring that holds the screen  and screen out, grind the outer part of the capsule down, and put everything back in.  I used a tiny bit of glue to hold the screen in place.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on September 01, 2018, 03:15:51 AM
Hey guys,
today I received my pair and unfortunately both had the old type of capsule with the slotted grille. It seems like after being sold out they restocked the old variant.  :-\
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:41:20 AM
Hi all,

this week a got my Takestar CM60 from China. I have compared them to the new Pronomic. Here are pictures and frequency plots.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:42:31 AM
Inside
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:43:33 AM
backside
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:44:22 AM
capsules, different size!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:45:03 AM
from the top
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:47:36 AM
Frequency plot Takestar red in comparison to Pronomic blue .  Speaker is a KH310 Neumann with pink noise
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:49:03 AM
Takestar (red)  in comparison to MBHO KA200 (Blue) pink noise
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 01, 2018, 05:51:22 AM
Pronomic (red) to MBHO KA200 (blue) .

Sorry, but it seems, that I can only upload one picture in one post.

Reiner
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on September 01, 2018, 06:32:11 AM
So after my initial disappointment I did some research and it seems like both type of capsules are manufactured by ISK and are rebrands of different models: The "old" Pronomic seems to be a BM-81 model, while the "new" one seems to be their BM-80.
In larger quantities you seem to be able to buy them on Alibaba ( http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/cardioid-small-diaphragm-condenser-microphone-BM80_60307864991.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.85.1432751eVsR5AV ) and in smaller quantities they are available from an Austrailan eBay-vendor ( https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BM-80-/311698332454 ).
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 01, 2018, 07:28:17 AM
So after my initial disappointment I did some research and it seems like both type of capsules are manufactured by ISK and are rebrands of different models

Sherlock Holmes!  ;D
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on September 01, 2018, 08:47:16 AM
So after my initial disappointment I did some research and it seems like both type of capsules are manufactured by ISK and are rebrands of different models: The "old" Pronomic seems to be a BM-81 model, while the "new" one seems to be their BM-80.
In larger quantities you seem to be able to buy them on Alibaba ( http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/cardioid-small-diaphragm-condenser-microphone-BM80_60307864991.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.85.1432751eVsR5AV ) and in smaller quantities they are available from an Austrailan eBay-vendor ( https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BM-80-/311698332454 ).
Interesting. Has anyone used the BM-80 before? I just have to CM-20c and BM-600.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 01, 2018, 11:16:29 AM
Frequency plot Takestar red in comparison to Pronomic blue .  Speaker is a KH310 Neumann with pink noise

They are too close for Pronomic to be considered "better" imho.

That 7-8k peak is still present.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on September 01, 2018, 07:40:39 PM
They are too close for Pronomic to be considered "better" imho.

That 7-8k peak is still present.

Well, as far as I can tell the peak is still present, but at 7k there's a difference of about 8(!) dB. So I'd call that a pretty massive difference.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 01, 2018, 07:58:26 PM
As far as i can tell the peak is just shifted towards 8k, and Pronomic seems to have a dip at 7k which makes 8k peak even more prominent  and sharper. I am not sure if we are talking about the same graph.

Still waiting for my mics, and will post my measurements.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on September 04, 2018, 07:46:10 AM
https://www.swamp.net.au/isk-bm-80-cardioid-pencil-condenser-overhead-microphone here's an English link to the BM-80. It does look pretty similar actually to the Banzai like capsules. A google search of the Banzai kit suggests it uses Maiku capsules though, not iSK. (Don't own the Banzai kit so I couldn't tell ya)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 04, 2018, 08:26:20 AM
I got a message from someone who recently ordered the Pronomic SCM-1 microphones, that they are back to the 'old' capsules...
(Maybe they ordered the 'wrong' type for a certain period of time.  :D)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on September 04, 2018, 10:11:24 AM
I got a message from someone who recently ordered the Pronomic SCM-1 microphones, that they are back to the 'old' capsules...
(Maybe they ordered the 'wrong' type for a certain period of time.  :D)

Hey,
maybe my message got lost in the thread but I also received the old version, when they arrived on saturday.  That's why I said that I was kind of disappointed and that's why I searched for an alternative.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 04, 2018, 11:32:34 AM
"Banzai" announced that when there will be a next run of KM84 kits, he will also make some extra microphone capsules available.
So, that is the only hope we can have...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 04, 2018, 11:50:36 AM
ISK is the source of the capsules, and they even confirmed through email to me that they make Pronomic. However, they won't sell capsules under 300pcs or so.

Still waiting for mine. And the same version of the capsule but without punctured grille is on the customs, i got them from Shaiyin.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 05, 2018, 06:07:43 PM
I received these today. Hyper, and cardioid.

Even though they have different grille, they have very simmilar responses like Pronomic measurements provided here, compared to older type capsules.

I wait for my pronomics, and will post results.

If anyone is interrested, HyperCardioid version has larger holes in plastic backplates, the rest is pretty much the same.

And no, they are not the same as old MXL capsules with mesh. These are shallower, have very dense mesh, and are flatter in response.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 06, 2018, 05:25:51 AM
Interesting! What is the (approximately) size of the holes in the plastic 'backplate'?
How did you get those capsules from ShuaiYin? (I suppose they are not interested to sell a small quantity.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 06, 2018, 04:38:15 PM
I will try to measure the holes and post the results.

No, but they are willing to send some samples :)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 07, 2018, 01:53:59 PM
Ok, i am very impressed. I think Matt from MP wasn't lying. This Shayin capsule seems to be the one  that MP sells now, but it is not like old MXL capsules. I think they are the same Shabtek got. 

Blue line is old style Pronomic, MXL, Subzero type capsules...
Red one is Shayin cardioid capsule
Yellow is Shayin hypercardioid capsule
Green is Neumann KM84, but you can omit weaker bass response, it's older measuerment and i believe KM84 was furthet away from the speaker. However the curve is pretty mush identical, it's just amplitude difference.

So yes i dare to say KM84 and these new capsules are almost as matched pair, if you omit proximity effect with km84 here.



(https://i.imgur.com/ti1JDMj.jpg)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 07, 2018, 02:12:09 PM
Ruud I cant measure the holes precisely, but i think it's very obvious.

Left one is Hypercardioid, wider plastic backplate holes, and smaller brass bacplate holes.
Right one is Cardioid and it's exactly opposite.

Note that Hypercardioid's outer ring  holes on brass backplate has smaller holes.

(https://i.imgur.com/UfTp0WO.jpg)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 07, 2018, 03:55:08 PM
Thanks! I have several 'old' capsules, so maybe I will give it a try and see what happens.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 13, 2018, 11:13:23 AM
Got mine with old one :(
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 13, 2018, 11:53:35 AM
That's what I mentioned already:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=69474.msg891463#msg891463

I have compared the "Banzai" ones with the "newer Pronomic" (or iSK, or whatever), but those capsules measure exactly the same.
But the "old" (and apparently current) Pronomic capsules sound completely different compared to the "Banzai"-style ones.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 14, 2018, 02:17:24 PM
I converted one of the stock capsules yesterday to hypercardioid by widening holes in plastic backplate. It knocked of 7k peak. However you ged a dip at about 4k, which happens with stock hypercardioid as well.

If anyone is interrested, diameter of wider, hypercardioid holes is 2mm.

I can rapport  that grille in front of the membrane affects just response above 10k. I even made several custom grilles to see what happens. Not much, it's mostly response above 10k that changes.

The biggest changes come from spacers betwen backplates, and holes.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 14, 2018, 04:14:01 PM
I suppose that you enlarged all the holes to 2 mm?
It would be interesting to see what happens if you only change a couple (4 or so) of them.
Maybe the change wouldn't be so drastic, but there is a chance that the 4 KHz dip wouldn't be so prominent.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 14, 2018, 04:50:36 PM
Yes. All four of them. Sure, one can try with less or smaller holes.

When i measure the capsule outside stock body, in a faraday shield the capsule is flatter and that dip at 4k is way smaller.

I gues when the holes are enlarged the acoustucs behind the capsule make more impact, and we all know those vents are not perfect. I'll post some measurements i made.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 14, 2018, 05:21:49 PM
So i got old style capsules, and two of them couldn't be more different. One is insanely hyped, and the other is ''classic'' with 8k peak.

The one that was hyped had only one spacer between the backplates instead of two! One thing to have in mind when you order these!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 14, 2018, 05:33:08 PM
And this is  the same cardioid capsule  attached to the stock body (blue) vs detached in a Faraday shield with same electronics (green) unsmoothed.   Notice the dip/peak that body creates.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 14, 2018, 05:38:30 PM
And this is cardioid vs hypercardioid (hypercardioid purple). The hip at 6.5k is caused by the body.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 15, 2018, 04:56:17 AM
Wow, that is some pretty interesting information!
By the way: I noticed that the capacity of those capsules varies widely!
I have some as low as 30 pF, while others are 42 pF.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 15, 2018, 05:59:19 AM
Hi, all,

It would also be interesting to close some holes to get a wide cardiode.  May be the dips will be away also!?

Reiner
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 15, 2018, 01:58:29 PM
Sure, but 8k spike might rise, and it will get brighter.

Superglue should work.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 15, 2018, 11:18:21 PM
Just stumbled upon this, Kenny Arnoff uses Mojave  which have ''old'' type Pronomic, MXL, bla, bla, bla capsules. And he found them useful on snare and toms...

https://youtu.be/SMqR57OCZto?t=10m57s
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 16, 2018, 06:20:14 AM
Just out of curiosity, I used an 'old' capsule and enlarged four of the eight holes in the plastic backplate to 2 mm.
The difference is dramatic: the bump around 7-8 KHz is a lot lower now, but there is a very sharp dip around 6.5 KHz.
Also the midrange seems to be boosted (1-2 KHz), while the lower frequencies are rolled off.
I am sure that the real capsule designers are now rolling over the floor laughing, when they see us struggling!
Green = original, Red = modified capsule.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on September 16, 2018, 06:34:26 AM
If you have another one to sacrifice, maybe try enlarging only two holes?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 16, 2018, 10:36:45 AM
Never got midrange boost. But i did get that dip. Lows should be actually stronger. Maybe try widening all of them.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 16, 2018, 12:05:14 PM
Ruud, if you have two of these spacers between the backplates try removing one, that solved the dip problem for me.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 16, 2018, 12:07:02 PM
The blue one is with one spacer instead of two (stock)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on September 17, 2018, 02:57:28 AM
I have two spacers. I will try again with one!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on September 18, 2018, 12:52:10 AM
So how does the hyper cardioid backplate mod sound? EDIT: Reread some posts and it's clearly the old Pronomic (though correct me if I'm wrong).

I'm think I might just get the  newer Oktava MK-012 "film set" (hyper cardioid capsule) SDC (which apparently  implement the Dorsey mod stock), unless someone can recommend me another good hyper cardioid SDC that isn't super bright or peaky within the same or lower price range (which is somewhere around $300 Canadian or $225 USD I think).

The blue one is with one spacer instead of two (stock)
Wow that's quite the difference. Seems like the mids aren't  as present, and the high end is slightly more present but you don't have the huge dip obvious. So one spacer is good for hyper cardioid, but bad for cardioid?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on September 18, 2018, 07:34:17 AM
Well it's more trial and error, some of these capsules are all over the place with specs.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on September 18, 2018, 03:43:35 PM
@Icantthinkofaname

What do you think about MBHO KA500 HC. Might be what you search. Phantastic hypercardiod capsule . Price is a little bit higher.

Reiner
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on September 19, 2018, 05:16:53 AM
Think this hyper cardioid mod would work in other cardioid SDCs assuming they used a similar backplate? I'd be pretty interested to see how it works with something like the iSK Pearl (rebranded iSK BM-88) since that has a 25mm diaphragm (so it's a "medium" diaphragm I guess, still an instrument mic, looks kinda like an Oktava MK-012 copy I'd say). If I pick one up I'll take open it up and post some pictures, it's been on my list of cheap gear to look at for a while. Though if it's anything like the CM-20 or Little Gem cardioid capsule it has a pretty significant rise around 7k.

And I'll probably just get the MK-012 since it seems to be one of the better price for performance SDCs (I've heard the same about a ton of things like the iSK Little Gem, but that has a pretty big rise around 7k and the super cardioid cap also has an additional spike around 5k (though I've heard people compare it to a modded MK-012?), but I know I've liked every MK-012 sample I've heard for dialogue/speech, not terribly fond of my iSK CM-20C still but it's far from neutral sounding) so it's probably the best choice.  I'd prefer to keep price as low as possible since I don't know how much I'd actually use it. Plus I have to also buy a portable recorder that does at least 96/24, and possibly a small preamp like a FetHead Phantom (and probably a used budget shotgun mic for outdoor recording). Basically my planned use case is micro/no budget videography (imagine comedy sketches and the like) and occasionally voiceover (though I still need to make proper acoustic treatment).
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: McIrish on September 19, 2018, 11:54:35 AM
The Oktava MK-012 is a very good mic. Extremely inexpensive for how it sounds. I had bought a dozen and kept the two I liked the best back in 2000. I just did a session with both my  Oktava and a KM84 strapped together to mic a guitar and a mandolin. My Oktava's are not modded yet, though I may change the FET cap and the cap feeding the bipolar transistor.  I could easily use either mic in these recordings. They are very similar in sound. The KM84 had a touch more smoothness on top but unless I had them side by side and switched tracks over the same musical passage, I wouldn't be able to pick them apart. 

On the other hand, we are all mic junkies and love to tinker and see what we can do with minimal investment. I know I have had a lot of fun learning about mics and changing circuits and capsules to see what I can come up with. Buying a MK-012 is an easy and inexpensive solution to getting a good SDC that compares to top level SDCs. But, it's not as much fun as the experiments we do....
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on September 20, 2018, 07:49:00 AM
The Oktava MK-012 is a very good mic. Extremely inexpensive for how it sounds. I had bought a dozen and kept the two I liked the best back in 2000. I just did a session with both my  Oktava and a KM84 strapped together to mic a guitar and a mandolin. My Oktava's are not modded yet, though I may change the FET cap and the cap feeding the bipolar transistor.  I could easily use either mic in these recordings. They are very similar in sound. The KM84 had a touch more smoothness on top but unless I had them side by side and switched tracks over the same musical passage, I wouldn't be able to pick them apart. 

On the other hand, we are all mic junkies and love to tinker and see what we can do with minimal investment. I know I have had a lot of fun learning about mics and changing circuits and capsules to see what I can come up with. Buying a MK-012 is an easy and inexpensive solution to getting a good SDC that compares to top level SDCs. But, it's not as much fun as the experiments we do....
I'm kind of tempted to go the DIY route, but the MK-012 is so nice sounding I'll probably pick up the hyper cardioid version. The newer wooden case one though, since that's supposed to have better electronics. Plus it doesn't seem like there's much that can be done with SDCs since they're usually transformerless flat Schoeps circuits. I'm also kind of interested in the 3U Audio small diaphragm mics like the CM100. I really like my Black CM1.

EDIT: I ordered the 3U Audio CM100 small diaphragm mic with the hyper cardioid and "airy" cardioid capsules. I'll probably buy the iSK Pearl at a later date and try the hyper cardioid mod just because.

I converted one of the stock capsules yesterday to hypercardioid by widening holes in plastic backplate. It knocked of 7k peak. However you ged a dip at about 4k, which happens with stock hypercardioid as well.

If anyone is interrested, diameter of wider, hypercardioid holes is 2mm.

I can rapport  that grille in front of the membrane affects just response above 10k. I even made several custom grilles to see what happens. Not much, it's mostly response above 10k that changes.

The biggest changes come from spacers betwen backplates, and holes.
How did you enlarge the holes anyway? Really small drill bit? A tiny file? Did the plastic backplate detach from the capsule, or do you have to be very careful not to damage the capsule?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on October 21, 2018, 05:57:34 AM
Is there anyone here, who ordered SCM-1 in last two weeks?
I would like to order it from kirstein, but they aren't able to verify what capsule version they currently have...
Another option, maybe someone know where to find ISK BM-80 in small quantities?
Or is there any other OEM version under different brand?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on October 21, 2018, 09:19:26 AM
It seems the last Kirstein batch had the 'old' capsules...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on October 21, 2018, 10:54:36 AM
It seems the last Kirstein batch had the 'old' capsules...

Thanks Rudolph, yes i've read about that but i was hoping that maybe someone just had bad luck and received just some stock but not from new batch.
Kirstein is unable to check it physically and keep four pcs. for my order.
I'm trying to find ISK in small quantities - any other version available guys? Someone found something?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on October 21, 2018, 11:45:56 AM
Apart from the eBay link I posted earlier (which is the eBay-store of an Australian company named Swamp Industries, that also sells the mic at their online shop at https://www.swamp.net.au/isk-bm-80-cardioid-pencil-condenser-overhead-microphone), I couldn't find anyone else selling these in small quantities. I'm also still looking for a seller within the EU, since im not really keen on going through the import hassle that is unavoidable when buying from Australia.

Cheers
Jannis
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on October 21, 2018, 12:32:09 PM
Some time ago our 'friend' Matt (from Microphone Farts Parts) had the capsules  ln76d is looking for.
I have the impression that Kirstein ordered the 'wrong' type some time ago, but now they are unfortunately back to the 'old ones'.
The SCM-1 has changed during the past years. A couple of years ago, there was even a trimpot for the FET bias.
Now most components on the PCB are SMD, and a fixed FET bias, which is not correct in most microphones.
(The ones with the trimpot came properly adjusted.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on October 21, 2018, 03:27:03 PM
Apart from the eBay link I posted earlier (which is the eBay-store of an Australian company named Swamp Industries, that also sells the mic at their online shop at https://www.swamp.net.au/isk-bm-80-cardioid-pencil-condenser-overhead-microphone), I couldn't find anyone else selling these in small quantities. I'm also still looking for a seller within the EU, since im not really keen on going through the import hassle that is unavoidable when buying from Australia.

Cheers
Jannis

Thanks for the link! I'll think about that or in worst case scenario i will order from kirstein old version and will wait to find somewhere capsules only (Matija mentioned Shuayin). Maybe i will just modify/remove top grill. We will see. I will also contact isk and if there will be possible to order small quantities, i will post info here. I checked aliexpress nothing similar.

Some time ago our 'friend' Matt (from Microphone Farts Parts) had the capsules  ln76d is looking for.
I have the impression that Kirstein ordered the 'wrong' type some time ago, but now they are unfortunately back to tho 'old ones'.
The SCM-1 has changed during the past years. A couple of years ago, there was even a trimpot for the FET bias.
Now most components on the PCB are SMD, and a fixed FET bias, which is not correct in most microphones.
(The ones with the trimpot came properly adjusted.)

It is still available on mfarts . 150$ plus all thievery when ordering to EU is a true nonsense. I need also the body for it, no need the circuit at all.
Kirstein rather don't know what they are selling. Shop located elswhere, logistic center elswhere. I can bet that the boxes are exactly the same for both versions of this microphone and rather employees see only these boxes not the internals.



Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Gus on October 21, 2018, 10:46:34 PM
A little off topic
I bought a SPA SP1 for the body and grill for a circuit I am working on.

I like to try things before I take them apart.

The new SP1(mostly smd) surprised me it did not sound like an older one (leaded parts). The change seems to be from the capsule.

I looked at the parts and found the older SD capsule brass backplate has smaller holes than the newer SD capsule. The plastic plate looks like the same hole size.  I might build a circuit for this newer capsule version.

Interesting reading about the variations in some of the SD capsules.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on October 21, 2018, 11:53:49 PM
Grooves in brass backplates are not the same on many models, even though they seem to be the same.

There are differences in .2mm or so between pronomic and Shayjin for example.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on October 22, 2018, 04:21:38 AM
Matija where did you bought Shuayin?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on October 22, 2018, 06:50:07 AM
I ordered directly from them. You could ask Jenny, it's her i talked to at Shaiyin.

shuaiyin9(at)126(dot)com

She asked me actually today how i like the capsules, i will reply and mention you are interrested ;)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Khron on October 22, 2018, 12:37:45 PM
Might i recommend "coding" that email address? :) Just so it's less recognizable for spam-bots and whatnot.

I ordered directly from them. You could ask Jenny, it's her i talked to at Shaiyin.

She asked me actually today how i like the capsules, i will reply and mention you are interrested ;)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: aazaa on October 25, 2018, 09:49:06 AM
A question about sound, in the end it is all about sound.

Is the sound of the cheap Pronomic SCM-1 as good or even better than the very well performing Shure SM81 electret instrument microphone?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on October 25, 2018, 03:15:23 PM
I think it is up to you to judge about that!
(How good is good?)
For me the Pronomics are very usable.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: ln76d on December 05, 2018, 07:50:34 AM
I see that now pronomic is made in black?!?! Top grill looks like old type. Anyone ordered black version and could confirm grill type?
https://www.kirstein.de/Live-Studio/Mikrofone/Kleinmembranmikrofone/Pronomic-SCM-1-Kleinmembranmikrofon-Silber.html
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on December 05, 2018, 10:48:55 AM
It is the same as the 'old' one. Only black...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: dasnevestheo on December 07, 2018, 04:04:04 AM
So there's still no way to get the SCM-1 with new Banzai capsule ? ...  :-[
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: micro1_de on December 07, 2018, 04:24:35 AM
Hi,

I have 3 new capsules for sale. If anyone want them. Please post me.

Greetings
Reiner
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on December 07, 2018, 03:42:02 PM
So there's still no way to get the SCM-1 with new Banzai capsule ? ...  :-[
There very well might be under a different name. A lot of these mics are just rebranded and sold under different names.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: dasnevestheo on December 13, 2018, 05:26:55 AM
I see that now pronomic is made in black?!?! Top grill looks like old type. Anyone ordered black version and could confirm grill type?
https://www.kirstein.de/Live-Studio/Mikrofone/Kleinmembranmikrofone/Pronomic-SCM-1-Kleinmembranmikrofon-Silber.html
Anyone tested those black ones ? also, did anyone compared with the even cheaper Takstar on aliexpress ? Someone mentioned it but not much infos...
I have the banzai capsules, just looking for some bodies to put them on.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on December 13, 2018, 07:11:19 AM
Anyone tested those black ones ? also, did anyone compared with the even cheaper Takstar on aliexpress ? Someone mentioned it but not much infos...
I have the banzai capsules, just looking for some bodies to put them on.
If they have the grill with the slits they're probably the old ones. They're probably just coloured differently. The Takstar might be similar as well since a lot of super cheap mics are just rebrands of other cheap mics. You can get an iSK BM-80 from Swamp.net.au for $60 AUS. I don't know what the Takstar costs though.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: dasnevestheo on December 13, 2018, 08:30:18 AM
25€ /mic
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: dasnevestheo on December 13, 2018, 08:30:58 AM
I'm going to change the capsules anyway, just looking for a body+electronics
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: craigmorris74 on December 13, 2018, 10:36:28 AM
Does anyone know who makes the type of capsule in the image I've attached?  They are super-flat, but only one dealer has them, and they're $150.  I think that's pretty steep for considering where it's made.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: dasnevestheo on December 13, 2018, 11:01:41 AM
looks like those from microphone parts
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: craigmorris74 on December 13, 2018, 11:10:50 AM
looks like those from microphone parts

Yes, it's the MP version and it's the one used by 3U, but I can't find the original Chinese source.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: rodaffleck on December 14, 2018, 11:50:02 AM
Yes, it's the MP version and it's the one used by 3U, but I can't find the original Chinese source.

I was under the impression that 3U make their own capsules. Can anyone confirm?

I have also heard third-hand that in their stock form the 3U sdc capsules don't work with the standard Chinese/MXL style bodies as the metal post on the capsule is too short to make contact with the connector on Chinese body.

So if both of these are in fact true, then it's likely that Mic-Parts did a custom order from 3U for their capsules.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on December 15, 2018, 08:31:23 AM
It wouldn't be too difficult to make the center contact a bit longer, or replace it completely.
(As long as the thread for the microphone body fits.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on December 17, 2018, 08:46:42 AM
Does anyone know who makes the type of capsule in the image I've attached?  They are super-flat, but only one dealer has them, and they're $150.  I think that's pretty steep for considering where it's made.
FWIW if it's anything like the 3U Audio capsules it'll be pretty nice. I hate to see Mic-Parts selling an $80~capsule for $150 though.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Gus on December 25, 2018, 10:03:39 AM
Does the perforated plate match any in the following link?
https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-perforated-sheets (https://www.mcmaster.com/standard-perforated-sheets)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: e.oelberg on December 28, 2018, 06:43:57 AM
I guess so, but I do have no tools to measure precise
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: dasnevestheo on December 30, 2018, 05:00:09 AM
OK i now have the good capsules and empty bodies, just need to find some PCBs to start building my Pronomics mutant mics !
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on February 02, 2019, 09:36:19 AM
I have just sent a price inquiry to iSK for their BM-81 microphones and "the good" capsules.
Would anyone be interested in this? (As soon as I know prices, I will let you know.)
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on February 02, 2019, 10:18:51 AM
I have just sent a price inquiry to iSK for their BM-81 microphones and "the good" capsules.
Would anyone be interested in this? (As soon as I know prices, I will let you know.)
I might go in for a couple. How does the group buying work? Does everyone's stuff get shipped to one location, or do they ship each of them put individually to the buyers?  The BM-81 is sold with what looks like the good capsule as the "BM-80" on Swamp.net.au for about $60 AUD, so if it's not much cheaper, Swamp Industries could be a good place to buy them assuming that is in fact the good capsule.

Not part of the same question or relating to the group buy, but how do we enlarge the holes in the spacers to do the super/hyper cardioid mod? Is there a specific size drill bit that works? Or do you need a specific tool like a small file? I'd like to have a couple as travel mics and knock around mics (stuff I'd use them on where I don't want to take a good one, maybe for sound effect recording outside, like getting the sound of snow crunching under feet, leaves, mud, etc).

If the one spacer thing works to get rid of that dip on the super cardioid mod, I'll go in for four if the price is right.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Vac11 on February 02, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
I would be interested, depends on the price...

Thanks for doing this

M.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on February 02, 2019, 12:03:31 PM
Yes, the price of the BM-81 iSK (capsules) is still a well hidden secret...
I had hoped that the 'Banzai' capsules would become available as separate items, but as far as I understood the selling of 'only the capsule' has a low priority.
So, let's wait for the answer from iSK!
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Recording Engineer on February 02, 2019, 01:00:29 PM
I’d be interested in a pair.

Any word on buying the capsules in the U99 or AT100?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: rodaffleck on February 02, 2019, 08:26:00 PM
Depending on the price, I'd be up for a pair as well. 

Someone more industrious than myself might also want to reach out to 3U to see if they'd be willing to work out  a deal for a capsule group buy that is  compatible with iSK bodies.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on February 03, 2019, 04:38:00 AM
I'd be in for a pair as well.

Cheers
Jannis
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on March 15, 2019, 10:00:00 AM
Looks like we haven't had any news on this in a while. Anyone know if the BM-80 capsule (looks identical to the good one) is actually like the good capsules, or is it some premium upgrade? I'd pay the $63 AUD easily if they are the good capsules.

I'm attaching the advertised frequency response available on iSK's website. I don't know if it's trustworthy, and they list different specs than Swamp Industries does (Swamp lists 16 dBA self noise, iSK lists 20 dBA which might be for the BM-81, pretty sure Swamp also listed the CM-20 mics with 18 dBA rather than the 20 dBA iSK advertises, though that's been corrected). Yup, Swamp's specs are incorrect. They're listing the BM-88/Pearl specs on the BM-80 because it says 25mm capsule.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on March 15, 2019, 01:39:41 PM
I have emailed iSK a couple of times and asked for a price for a batch of microphones and/or capsules, but unfortunately they never replied. Strange...
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: cyrano on March 15, 2019, 03:02:35 PM
It's possible you're just too polite...

Sometimes you need to "badger" the Chinese.

Years ago, I bought laptop batteries from China. It's very common not to get a reply on a first mail. I got transferred to one of their Hong-Kong "handlers" after the fourth mail or so. They admitted having no person able to mail in English. The HK handler was reliable and I've bought several dozens of batteries from that manufacturer.

Recently, a friend bought an expensive e-bike. It should arrive assembled. Of course, it wasn't. No plans, no schematics, no battery...

It wasn't until he made a post on FB calling the manufacturer a scam operation he got response. They threatened him with a lawsuit. Again, he posted the threat on FB and sent them a mail alerting them to the post, stating that he would make a lot of noise unless they sent him what he wanted. He did get what he paid for and the manufacturer has found a Russian intermediary to handle EU business.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on March 18, 2019, 02:02:10 AM
I have emailed iSK a couple of times and asked for a price for a batch of microphones and/or capsules, but unfortunately they never replied. Strange...

I tried that and they did reply.
However they redirected me to their
reseller.

Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Banzai on March 20, 2019, 09:08:05 AM
If you guys are interested in the stock BM80, can ask for a quote.

But needs to be 100pcs ordered minimum.
Also be prepared for ~ 4 month leadtime.

Btw not using ISK for the KM84 kits.
Haven't dealt with them since the capsule groupbuy we did years ago.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on March 21, 2019, 11:37:06 AM
I could probably go in for 4 (so I can have two cardioid, and two to try the hyper/super cardioid mod on, and 4 from Swamp Industries would probably cost $250 or so anyway.) if we can get the group buy together. Though they might just tell you to talk to the reseller.

Seems like they're already somewhat cheap (compared to a KM84), but I can't find anything on how it actually sounds or even any reviews, and I don't really trust the frequency response plot much, because a lot of iSK's look way too similar for me to believe they all sound really similar unless they're all the same few mics rebadged.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: rodaffleck on March 21, 2019, 04:39:51 PM
Interested, depending on the price.  Seeing as Swamp sells them retail for $63 AUD, I'm thinking you should be able to get them for well under $40 US a piece?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on March 31, 2019, 04:24:05 PM
I'd still be in for a pair (or more, depending on the price), if we can make that groupbuy happen. Thanks for the offer, Banzai!

Cheers
Jannis
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 13, 2019, 02:45:52 PM
I received these today. Hyper, and cardioid.

Even though they have different grille, they have very simmilar responses like Pronomic measurements provided here, compared to older type capsules.

I wait for my pronomics, and will post results.

If anyone is interrested, HyperCardioid version has larger holes in plastic backplates, the rest is pretty much the same.

And no, they are not the same as old MXL capsules with mesh. These are shallower, have very dense mesh, and are flatter in response.
How much do those custom Shuaiyin capsules cost? And what's their minimum order?
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 13, 2019, 03:17:16 PM
7.5$ piece. Shipping to Norway is 45$.

They are nothing special. For the price of shipping and capsule you can get a couple of Takstar CM60 microphones. Which has the same type of caosule, if you dont mind the grille on them. And you get the body as well.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 14, 2019, 02:23:05 AM
7.5$ piece. Shipping to Norway is 45$.

They are nothing special. For the price of shipping and capsule you can get a couple of Takstar CM60 microphones. Which has the same type of caosule, if you dont mind the grille on them. And you get the body as well.
They seem pretty flat though, aren't they? I doubt they'd fit any of the mics I have since most of my SDCs are iSKs which are electret.

I'm mostly interested in the hyper cardioid capsule anyway, but picking up a cardioid, omni, and hyper cardioid is something I'd be open to.

Actually do you think these would fit the iSK BM-80 or Pronomic SCM1? I'd certainly be open to grabbing a pair of the latter and some Shuaiyin capsules.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 15, 2019, 12:20:17 PM
I wouldnt recommend hyper cardioids with this kind of body because of the accoustical mess behind the capsule. I've never seen decent FR curve with hypers on these mics. They usualy have huge dip in upper midrange. And off axis sound gets ugly.

For this kind of body i would go with omnis, or cardioids. Not that hypers will dramatically differently reject the sound compared to cardioids.

I tried this on toms hoping i would get less bleed from cymbals. Nothing happened, i just got uglier off axis sound (cymbals).
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 15, 2019, 06:09:39 PM
I wouldnt recommend hyper cardioids with this kind of body because of the accoustical mess behind the capsule. I've never seen decent FR curve with hypers on these mics. They usualy have huge dip in upper midrange. And off axis sound gets ugly.

For this kind of body i would go with omnis, or cardioids. Not that hypers will dramatically differently reject the sound compared to cardioids.

I tried this on toms hoping i would get less bleed from cymbals. Nothing happened, i just got uglier off axis sound (cymbals).
Yeah I figured hyper wouldn't be great on a mic where the acoustic vents are on the body sleeve. I'm either gonna get a couple hyper cardioid MK-012 capsules (and return them if it's my preamps that are the issue, but I'm starting to doubt that), and if that's the case I'll get another 3U Audio SDC with the hyper cardioid capsule.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: jarvis on August 16, 2019, 07:01:19 AM
Hey,
I had a little bit of free time on my hands and dug a little deeper. So I found that a manufacturer called Byron Audio sells these types of microphones at very reasonable rates. They want 47$ for a pair of these mics ( MOQ 100) including two mic clips, windscreens and a wooden/aluminium box. They also sell these capsules for 7.70$ (MOQ 200). I don't know if they are affiliated with ISK or not but they seem to be identical.
Just FYI.  ;)

Best
Jannis
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: kingkorg on August 16, 2019, 07:31:01 AM
That's awesome! Thank you for sharing!

EDIT (update):
Just received a reply, sadly they don't have the CS-170 type.

However, as i suspected, they claim the two types sound and measure exactly the same, the only difference is cosmetic.

Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 16, 2019, 09:53:16 PM
Hey,
I had a little bit of free time on my hands and dug a little deeper. So I found that a manufacturer called Byron Audio sells these types of microphones at very reasonable rates. They want 47$ for a pair of these mics ( MOQ 100) including two mic clips, windscreens and a wooden/aluminium box. They also sell these capsules for 7.70$ (MOQ 200). I don't know if they are affiliated with ISK or not but they seem to be identical.
Just FYI.  ;)

Best
Jannis
Got a link to their site? There are a couple Byron Audios I'm finding through Google.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 17, 2019, 03:43:29 AM
I have a feeling it is this one: http://www.byron-audio.com/
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on August 17, 2019, 04:12:09 AM
I have a feeling it is this one: http://www.byron-audio.com/
Yeah, that's what I figured but I'm not finding those mics, and most their stuff seems to not be actual studio condensers either (a ton of dynamics though), there's a lot of lav and gooseneck mics and a lot of their studio stuff looks like the usual stuff from Nady and the like, though I will say some of their LDCs under the "Pro Microphones" tab intrigue me. They have some stuff that looks like Shure condenser knockoffs with some pretty decent sounding specs, but no audio samples or frequency plots (this doesn't bother me so much, but they're cheaper condensers that are Apex/Nady rebrands have them) or even a dedicated info page for the individual mics.

The other few results actually called Byron Audio seem to be videography services.
Title: Re: Pronomic SCM-1
Post by: RuudNL on August 17, 2019, 04:27:05 AM
This is the one: http://www.byron-audio.net/