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General Discussions => Brewery => Topic started by: living sounds on October 26, 2018, 09:42:28 AM

Title: A democracy in crisis
Post by: living sounds on October 26, 2018, 09:42:28 AM
Good read:

https://www.thenation.com/article/the-2018-midterms-have-exposed-a-democracy-in-crisis/
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 26, 2018, 11:07:52 AM
Yet another example of media bias, labelling President Trump a (white) nationalist... cute.

 I expect more like this and probably worse trying to sway undecideds in the upcoming election (weeks away).

The late 60's was worse than this with the nation divided over Viet Nam. The decade before the civil war was reportedly much worse, but I didn't live through that, I do remember the 60s (mostly).

I am not good at predicting vote outcomes, and mid term elections are usually low turn-out losers for the party in power, but it looks like we may have record turnout this time judging from early voting results. The shenanigans trying to energize the left's base, appears to be energizing the right also.  There is an old joke that Americans learn geography from wars, it appears the drama surrounding President Trump's administration is teaching civics to the low information voters (while I'm sure that was not his plan or intention).  ::)

The Kavanaugh hearing abuse of process (and identity politics character assassination), and now the caravan of illegal immigrants moving toward our southern border is far from a successful strategy for the left (IMO).  President Trumps poll numbers are actually rising. A recent NBC/WSJ poll report President Trump has a 47% approval rating. President Obama had a 45% approval rating at the same time in his first term. President Obama lost seats in 2010 so this far from a victory signal, but perhaps informative for the sky is falling (democracy in crisis) crowd. The democratic leadership is trying to soften their message (about calling for impeachment et al), but the damage from energizing the right may already be done.

 Sorry I should do better about ignoring this stuff but the amount of money both sides are spending on this mid term are also breaking records (expected to exceed $5B). As a nation we could do far better things with that money.   >:(

The good news this election will be over in a few weeks, the bad news the extraordinary partisan enmity probably won't stop then.

A split legislature is actually a good thing for the small government crowd (me). We could all do with a little less federal government.

JR

PS: Since Oct is almost over I wonder if the SA caravan, or the suspicious mailed packages were the October surprise? Perhaps still more to come, but there definitely seems to be some fuzzy thinking going on this time around. 
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: living sounds on October 26, 2018, 12:44:40 PM
Yet another example of media bias, labelling President Trump a (white) nationalist... cute.

Well... he even labled himself a nationalist a few days ago. Really John, an incredible amount of bias is necessary not to see Trump and much of the GOP for the corrupt, machiavellian, our-ends-justify-all-means kind of people they are / have become.

I don't see any point in adressing the rest of your post filled with motivated reasoning. I don't want to talk about the Trump talking points, things like the totally meaningless so called "Caravan". These are distractions.

There are people in power now who do whatever they can to grab and keep vast shares of riches and resources, because they consider themselves entitled and don't care about the rest. They are going to try again to take away healthcare, medicare (McConnel stupidly admitted it), allow the desctruction of the planet to commence and don't give a damn as long as they are at the top. That's the naked truth and that's what this election is about. Anything else is meaningless.


Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 26, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
Well... he even labled himself a nationalist a few days ago. Really John, an incredible amount of bias is necessary not to see Trump and much of the GOP for the corrupt, machiavellian, our-ends-justify-all-means kind of people they are / have become.
There is a huge difference between a nationalist and a white nationalist, a pejorative extremist characterization. If you don't see the difference I can't help you.
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I don't see any point in adressing the rest of your post filled with motivated reasoning. I don't want to talk about the Trump talking points, things like the totally meaningless so called "Caravan". These are distractions.
;D good news (I have work to do).
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There are people in power now who do whatever they can to grab and keep vast shares of riches and resources, because they consider themselves entitled and don't care about the rest. They are going to try again to take away healthcare, medicare (McConnel stupidly admitted it), allow the desctruction of the planet to commence and don't give a damn as long as they are at the top. That's the naked truth and that's what this election is about. Anything else is meaningless.
Be sure to vote.... ::)  I am not trying to change anybody's emotional opinion, just trying to keep facts straight.

I am pleased to hear that Angela Merkel has changed her position about opening up Germany to US LNG in response to lobbying from President Trump. This will ultimately reduce your dependence on Russian NG from the pipeline and Putin's influence over EU energy market. This will take years to build a new LNG terminal and get it functional but is a positive long term step IMO (I still question Germany decommissioning nuclear power plants, but they are unpopular since the tsunami in Japan.) 

While of little consequence to mid term voters here it looks like another modest success for President Trump's international policy for those of us paying attention.

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: dmp on October 26, 2018, 01:28:50 PM
To get back on subject, when a politicians attack the ability of citizens to vote for purely partisan reasons, it is a democracy in crisis.
Perhaps the most damning thing about all of this is Trump created a commission to investigate his claims of voter fraud.
The commission was headed by Kris Kobach, the Kansas Sec of State who has been leading the Republican effort to disenfranchise voters.
The commission quietly disbanded after failing to find anything of substance. 
Trump's claims that several million people voted illegally in 2016 turned out to be a lie and the Republican justifications for voter ID, closing polling places, purging voter rolls, creating poll taxes (fees for voter IDs), etc... have all been exposed for just what they are: anti-democratic attempts at obtaining power against the will of the people.
Hopefully people here (or most) can see the truth of all this and what it says about the character of the Republican party.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: gyraf on October 26, 2018, 01:36:53 PM
A recent NBC/WSJ poll report President Trump has a 47% approval rating. President Obama had a 45% approval rating at the same time in his first term.

Not quite correct:  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

..Obama had a 47,9 average approval rating, Trump just about holds it at 39 so far(!) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

..but it is still sad to watch the splitting from the side line...

Jakob E.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 26, 2018, 03:45:47 PM
Not quite correct:  https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

..Obama had a 47,9 average approval rating, Trump just about holds it at 39 so far(!) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_approval_rating

..but it is still sad to watch the splitting from the side line...

Jakob E.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/412445-trumps-approval-rating-jumps-higher-than-obamas-ahead-of-midterms

I don't make this sh__ up, this is not the same article I saw this morning but references the same poll  NBC/WSJ... that indicated President Trump's recently rising popularity  (NBC does not strike me as administration friendly media).

The poll that actually counts is the vote in Nov and President Trump is not technically on that ballot (neither was President Obama in 2010). 
====
Indeed it is sad to see the lack of civility from both political parties.

JR

PS: I found a full term gallup poll showing President Obama's popularity between 40% and 50% in 2010...   https://qz.com/889644/obamas-approval-rating-from-his-first-day-to-his-last-in-charts/ (https://qz.com/889644/obamas-approval-rating-from-his-first-day-to-his-last-in-charts/)  But we know what they say about statistics... "lies, damn lies, and statistics."
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: living sounds on October 26, 2018, 09:15:20 PM
Indeed it is sad to see the lack of civility from both political parties.

Please don't do that. You didn't decry civility when Obama (the poster child for civility, decency and integrity) was president and an agry tea party mob was spewing hate in the streets and the "freedom caucus" people misbehaved in parliament.

You  have a choice: You either own the uglyness that orginates overwhelmingly from the extremist right (currently running the governement now) or you can disavow it.

But don't try to muddy the waters like that, it's not a level we shouldn't sink to here.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: boji on October 26, 2018, 10:38:44 PM
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The Kavanaugh hearing abuse of process (and identity politics character assassination)

Kavanaugh equally deployed his identity politic while defending his position so, I'm not sure it's relevant to describing what amounted to a failed 'assassination'. 

As for the voting booth shell game, this is an ancient tactic.
If you can order a firearm or pay for an abortion with your iPhone, you should be able to use an encrypted voting app in front of a notary witness. But I can understand why a political minority would want to frustrate any tool or procedure that might reduce their leverage.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 27, 2018, 08:20:43 AM
The Kavanaugh hearing abuse of process (and identity politics character assassination), and now the caravan of illegal immigrants moving toward our southern border is far from a successful strategy for the left (IMO).

Can you please clarify why you call these people illegal immigrants?

They have entered every country in broad daylight, out in the open.
Every country has let them in.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: sodderboy on October 27, 2018, 10:21:42 AM
Really John, an incredible amount of bias is necessary not to see Trump and much of the GOP for the corrupt, machiavellian, our-ends-justify-all-means kind of people they are / have become.  The screeching mobs on the other side have thrown-in to a ends justifies the means strategy.

They are going to try again to take away healthcare, medicare (McConnel stupidly admitted it), allow the destruction of the planet to commence and don't give a damn as long as they are at the top. That's the naked truth and that's what this election is about. Anything else is meaningless.

Really, the shoe is on the other foot.  Besides the fact that the "GOP" has been against Trump's major agenda items since they recovered from his election, they have not been "taking power" but have been elected in increasing numbers over their democrat challengers on all levels of government since 2010.  The screaming mobs on the other side are more of a ends justifies the means strategy.  They think if the media covers the screaming enough it will sway a crowd psychology reaction.  They are all going down with that strategy.   

And "take away healthcare"?  I have been paying double for 8 years and it is time to stop.  PPCACA was written by the insurance companies and every selling point was a lie.  My tab for "healthcare" over the next year is $22K, $1,850 monthly not including deductables and "out-of-pocket".  I am paying thousands for something I do not use.  Plus, I'm funding cadallac plans for government people on all levels.  The federal and state shackles need to be loosened and let a less encumbered market for a product naturally evolve, reduce prices, and create "market changers" like Uber.  A simple catastrophic plan for me should be more like $2,000 per year, but simple products like this have been legislated away over the decades on all levels of guv.  A multitiered system of coverage with cross-state competition will lower all medical/medical coverage costs and make it more affordable to give for "free" to an ever increasing number of citizens.  That is NOT "taking away healthcare".  All that said, the GOP does not have the fortitude to change PPCACA because they are bought and paid for just like the Dems.  Trump is going to have to drag them there.

Destruction of the planet?  Ganz Kvatch! (What total rubbish!)  No "scientific reports" links please.
Mike
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 27, 2018, 11:12:11 AM
Can you please clarify why you call these people illegal immigrants?

They have entered every country in broad daylight, out in the open.
Every country has let them in.
That does not make it legal. They broke through a Guatemalan border fence ignoring Mexican authorities request for an orderly entrance, so likely broke Mexican law at that point. 

I don't like pretending to know what they think, but after they are coached by legal supporters as they get closer to the US border many will likely present themselves to be arrested by US border agents as illegal entrants, only to be re-released into the US.

If they think they can pull a Guatemala-like rush at the US border they will likely see a different outcome. Hopefully the media will stop egging them on with expectations of a happy ending.

While our immigration laws are in desperate need of update, our border is not a free for all. All sovereign nations require secure borders, and an orderly, sensible immigration process. This is an insult to the millions coming in legally, who built this country, and will help us grow in the future.

JR

PS: Don't get hung up on words... if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may be a duck.  8)
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 27, 2018, 11:47:19 AM
Kavanaugh equally deployed his identity politic while defending his position so, I'm not sure it's relevant to describing what amounted to a failed 'assassination'. 
He lost his temper one time, and said what many people were thinking. In hindsight his response was not temperate or thoughtful. His angry emotional response was different compared to the hours of cold deliberate character attacks mounted by the democratic members of the committee. For them it was just another day in the resistance, but for Kavanaugh and his family it created emotional scars they will carry for the rest of their lives.  As an experienced judge it was probably an extra shock to be treated so disrespectfully so publically.

I openly hoped for some investigation into the multiple shenanigans pulled by the resistance associated with this hearing. The first shoe to drop is Sen Grassley (head of the Senate Judiciary Committee) referred Avenatti to the Justice department for a criminal investigation (submitted fraudulent sworn statement to committee). Separately he also submitted Aventti and his client Julie Swetnik for conspiracy, providing false statements, and obstructing a senate investigation. (so more than one shoe)  There are more snakes in that wood pile, but this is a start.

I am not aware of many such prosecutions resulting in jail time, but this was probably the ugliest baseless accusation made against Kavanaugh (gang rape). They need to realize that they broke laws (lying to congressional investigators) and there are consequences. Martha Stewart and others have felt the teeth of this law.

This is an old rant of mine, but I think our elected representatives need to be held to a similar higher standard of truth telling in public statements. The poster boy was Harry Reid claiming that Romney didn't pay taxes. After the election when he was questioned about his lie, he said "well it worked"... (drain the swamp).

{ here is where you guys rant about President Trump "lying"....  :o }
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As for the voting booth shell game, this is an ancient tactic.
If you can order a firearm or pay for an abortion with your iPhone, you should be able to use an encrypted voting app in front of a notary witness. But I can understand why a political minority would want to frustrate any tool or procedure that might reduce their leverage.
Vote integrity is important... I am repeating myself (again). Let everybody vote who wants to, but take a photo and thumb print. If the election is close those votes can be vetted. If not close, discard the biometric data.

This too is old school team politics. One side rants about vote fraud, while the other rants about denied rights. This gets investigated every election and insignificant numbers (in the context of a couple hundred million) get caught.

Hopefully this will stir up more people to actually participate (looks like a record turn out expected this time).

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 27, 2018, 12:10:06 PM
PS: Don't get hung up on words... if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it may be a duck.  8)

Right. To quote yourself:

There is a huge difference between a nationalist and a white nationalist, a pejorative extremist characterization. If you don't see the difference I can't help you.

There is a huge difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant, a pejorative extremist characterization. Or, it's pretty easy to argue Trump 'walks' and talks like a white nationalist, so he probably is.

Best if you don't like pejorative labels applied to you and ours, to not apply them to others.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 27, 2018, 12:38:56 PM
Right. To quote yourself:

There is a huge difference between an immigrant and an illegal immigrant, a pejorative extremist characterization.
An "illegal" immigrant is an immigrant who entered the country "illegally" breaking our laws. It might be considered premature to call the caravan members illegal while it appears they did break Mexican law by forcing their way through the Guatemalan border fence.

If they were expected "legal" migrants, following established US immigration law they wouldn't be getting 24x7 news coverage (everybody loves a parade.)
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Or, it's pretty easy to argue Trump 'walks' and talks like a white nationalist, so he probably is.
Perhaps easy to argue in one side's biased echo chamber, but not supported by fact. 
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Best if you don't like pejorative labels applied to you and ours, to not apply them to others.
The art of political suasion is "painting with words", this is constantly being used by spinners from both sides. I was attempting to be precise (accurate), while I appreciate that words have impact. I was recognizing their legal status, not attempting to paint a false impression about same.

I try not to delve in political persuasion (spin), I am however a student of government and often feel compelled to explain how things work (not unlike explaining electronic circuits). I appreciate that it is difficult to separate politics from governance, especially since so many spend most of their time in office trying to stay in office (another argument for term limits).

I apologize to all I am apparently offending by right-splaining current events but I am mainly responding to other comments.  ::) I have better things to do with my time (like build drum tuners to fill my back order)

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: boji on October 27, 2018, 03:43:41 PM
The old one-liner: How do you know a politician is lying? Their lips are moving.

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I am not aware of many such prosecutions resulting in jail time, but this was probably the ugliest baseless accusation made against Kavanaugh (gang rape).
I am a firm believer our core instincts don't change much over time.  We may learn things and get wise, but who we were in high school will predict our general temperament. This is to say even if Kav's youth was just a hard drinking, consensual, hedonistic carnival, there are those who know early on to avoid such behavior and those who say 'fuk it' and sneak under the tent.

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emotional scars they will carry for the rest of their lives.
If we're to believe in the witness testimony (what was permitted through), there's enough scarring to go around.
 But I think Kav was a willing victim too, as he was heavily coached to 'disrobe' emotionally.  This means he chose to help the GOP by getting his career to peak over holding to the principals of the position he was vying for.  If he had an ounce of belief in the pseudo-divine status his position is supposed to represent, he would have bowed-out way before the witness roster was called.

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If the election is close those votes can be vetted. If not close, discard the biometric data.
+1
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: living sounds on October 27, 2018, 07:50:01 PM
And "take away healthcare"?  I have been paying double for 8 years and it is time to stop.  PPCACA was written by the insurance companies and every selling point was a lie.  My tab for "healthcare" over the next year is $22K, $1,850 monthly not including deductables and "out-of-pocket".  I am paying thousands for something I do not use.  Plus, I'm funding cadallac plans for government people on all levels.  The federal and state shackles need to be loosened and let a less encumbered market for a product naturally evolve, reduce prices, and create "market changers" like Uber.  A simple catastrophic plan for me should be more like $2,000 per year, but simple products like this have been legislated away over the decades on all levels of guv.  A multitiered system of coverage with cross-state competition will lower all medical/medical coverage costs and make it more affordable to give for "free" to an ever increasing number of citizens.  That is NOT "taking away healthcare".  All that said, the GOP does not have the fortitude to change PPCACA because they are bought and paid for just like the Dems.  Trump is going to have to drag them there.



I totally understand you anger with the current system. With a normal (non rich-guy) income you obviously shouldn't pay that much, and in a progressive system wouldn't pay that much. Bernie Sanders, Michael Moore or Ralph Nader wouldn't want you to pay that much.

But if you think McConnel, Trump and the rest of the GOP will make this better you hope for something very unlikely. Look at their track record! In the last 40 years under GOP rule tax cuts for the wealthy, corporate welfare, wasteful military spending and deregulation with catastrophic economic consequenes have increased the deficit and transfered money from the bottom and middle to the top. McConnel even said he wants to eliminate the entitlement programs.

We probably agree over many issues relating to inefficiencies in the system and corporate welfare in the healthcare and other sectors. Personally, I think taxing sugar and junk food the same as other toxic consumer produces like alcohol and cigarettes would be a good start.

As for a market-based-solution... Well, the health care "market" is not like other markets. It is an insurance, and the most important one of them. You may need it, you may not need it. You pay for other people most of the time, as is the case with any insurance. But you have it if and when you need it. So naturally we pay for something we hopefully don't need. I know I do and hope to do so in the future.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: L´Andratté on October 28, 2018, 07:33:28 AM
Wow, Pittsburgh, things are speeding up fast...
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: L´Andratté on October 28, 2018, 07:38:25 AM
Destruction of the planet?  Ganz Kvatch! (What total rubbish!)  No "scientific reports" links please.
How do you mean that? Do you think scientific reports invalid as a whole?

Your monthly medical costs are ridiculous and as you said likely a result of successful lobbying*.
In Germany the highest I had to pay was ca. 600EU when I had a royal income (yet still "normal"), when I haid very low income it was about 200EU. With that everything essential is covered (even like 1,5 years of pay of 60% of former income when unable to work because of health issues) It is for me a cornerstone of civilization.

*which is the undisclosed end all that voting and political talking business of all parties is a means to. Imho.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 28, 2018, 07:57:36 AM
An "illegal" immigrant is an immigrant who entered the country "illegally" breaking our laws. It might be considered premature to call the caravan members illegal while it appears they did break Mexican law by forcing their way through the Guatemalan border fence.

If they were expected "legal" migrants, following established US immigration law they wouldn't be getting 24x7 news coverage (everybody loves a parade.)Perhaps easy to argue in one side's biased echo chamber, but not supported by fact.  The art of political suasion is "painting with words", this is constantly being used by spinners from both sides. I was attempting to be precise (accurate), while I appreciate that words have impact. I was recognizing their legal status, not attempting to paint a false impression about same.

I try not to delve in political persuasion (spin), I am however a student of government and often feel compelled to explain how things work (not unlike explaining electronic circuits). I appreciate that it is difficult to separate politics from governance, especially since so many spend most of their time in office trying to stay in office (another argument for term limits).

I apologize to all I am apparently offending by right-splaining current events but I am mainly responding to other comments.  ::) I have better things to do with my time (like build drum tuners to fill my back order)

JR

Labelling them as criminals, using a pejorative description, is textbook political spin: you're projecting a belief system where all poor non-white immigrants travelling to the US are "illegals".

How plausible does this sound:
A "white" nationalist is a nationalist who is "white". Nothing political is inferred by "white", it's just an accurate description of their skin colour.

Apparently the "white" nationalist "terrorist" in Pittsburgh, was fed up with all the "illegals" the "jews" were bringing in to "invade" his country.

No sh*t words have impact.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 28, 2018, 12:20:36 PM
Labelling them as criminals, using a pejorative description, is textbook political spin: you're projecting a belief system where all poor non-white immigrants travelling to the US are "illegals".
Are you suggesting that some fraction of those Honduran migrants are "legal" and following established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US?
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How plausible does this sound:
A "white" nationalist is a nationalist who is "white". Nothing political is inferred by "white", it's just an accurate description of their skin colour.
As you well know the "white" modifier attached to nationalist does not infer but specifies a racist (white supremacy) extreme variant of nationalism
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Apparently the "white" nationalist "terrorist" in Pittsburgh, was fed up with all the "illegals" the "jews" were bringing in to "invade" his country.
He is a "terrorist" white nationalist...  I try to avoid breaking news coverage which is mostly conjecture, and media blaming President Trump for everything negative.  Sadly this media attention will likely spread fear and perhaps copy cats, that is the implicit goal of terrorism, while this guy may lack any rational motivation. 
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No sh*t words have impact.
I have been saying exactly that right here for years.

Politics is subjective so we all view the actions of the other team differently.  It is unfair to hang the extreme behavior of isolated unhinged individuals on political leaders. We didn't blame Bernie Sander's when one of his followers attempted to murder Steve Scalise, while democratic leadership has openly called for incivility.

Some recent Democratic commentary
Quote from: Hillarysez
"You cannot be civil with a political party that wants to destroy what you stand for, what you care about,"
While not exactly democratic leadership
Quote from: Rep Maxine Waters
“Let’s make sure we show up wherever we have to show up,” she said at a rally in Los Angeles on Saturday. “And if you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd. And you push back on them. And you tell them they’re not welcome anymore, anywhere.”

From where I sit it appears the left is openly calling for public hostility and "incivility". In fact supporters have taken Maxine literally agressively confronting legislators and senior administration members. 

This sounds like how the left characterizes President Trump, so no doubt opinions vary.

IMO this rhetoric can end badly.  Leaders from both sides need to work to cool passions (and some try), but I doubt this will recede  before the midterm vote. This hyper partisan enmity is helping both parties raise huge piles of money, so why stop what is working?

JR

PS: I think I recently commented that political spin is like painting with words. Sorry if you read more into my words than I presented. Illegal is not exactly the same as criminal. If I wanted to paint that picture I could have easily wrote criminal illegal immigrants, while I consider the coyotes helping them (for money) criminal.     
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: living sounds on October 28, 2018, 02:07:09 PM
A single congresswoman is not the President of the United States. No president in living memory, not even Nixon, ever ever went remotely as low as Trump.

And what was Maxine Waters protesting? An administration taking children  away from their parents and locking them up in cages.

Ask yourself what you are defending here. There's still time to leave the rabbit hole.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 28, 2018, 03:24:25 PM
A single congresswoman is not the President of the United States. No president in living memory, not even Nixon, ever ever went remotely as low as Trump.
Nixon drafted me into the army so I am not a Nixon fan, but he did open up China to the west.
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And what was Maxine Waters protesting? An administration taking children  away from their parents and locking them up in cages.
(https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5b0dafa31ae66245008b4885-960-480.jpg)
You mean like this 2014 image?

Immigration law is tangled up and I blame both parties for this.
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Ask yourself what you are defending here. There's still time to leave the rabbit hole.
Ah there's the personal insult....   ::)

Don't you realize this is yet another political strategy to keep us angry at each other so we don't actually listen to each other and learn how much we have in common. 

Don't be played.   8)

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 29, 2018, 07:50:43 PM
Are you suggesting that some fraction of those Honduran migrants are "legal" and following established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US?
Your question is already loaded with bias: the entire caravan is "legal".

Every single one of them has the right to show up at a US port of entry, and request asylum. That is the established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US.

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PS: I think I recently commented that political spin is like painting with words. Sorry if you read more into my words than I presented. Illegal is not exactly the same as criminal. If I wanted to paint that picture I could have easily wrote criminal illegal immigrants, while I consider the coyotes helping them (for money) criminal.   

This shows how absurd the label is: you have illegals who are law abiding (legal illegals), and illegals who are criminals (illegal illegals)

:o
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 29, 2018, 09:47:02 PM
Your question is already loaded with bias: the entire caravan is "legal".
In case I wasn't clear, they broke Mexican law by breaking through the southern border fence.

Their apparent intent is to ignore US immigration procedure and therefore law .
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Every single one of them has the right to show up at a US port of entry, and request asylum. That is the established procedure for gaining legal entry to the US. Unless the US decides to go rogue, it is obliged to process every asylum request it receives.
Yes, but only for extreme cases. Migrants from Canada and Mexico that don't meet the standard for entry get returned to their home country immediately, but policy for more distant nationals involves court hearings and that system is swamped with delays, not to mention most don't even show up for their hearings. It is a loophole they have been exploiting for years.
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What these people haven't done, is violate US immigration laws merely by walking towards the border.
No, this is mainly political theater but IMO misguided. 

Mexico has offered them asylum that has been declined so if they were indeed desperate refugees they should welcome asylum anywhere, this appears coached and orchestrated for political ends (but I repeat misguided as it will likely have the opposite effect  from intentions.)   
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This shows how absurd the label is: you have illegals who are law abiding (legal illegals), and illegals who are criminals (illegal illegals)

:o
Yes, this is all pretty absurd.

Their intent to take advantage of loopholes and gaps in immigration law do not make this right.  There are millions following the rules and procedures, waiting in queue to become US citizens legally. These attempts to jump the line is unfair to all them.

A Honduran from a second caravan was just killed at the Mexican border (shot by a rubber bullet)...  Sovereign governments have the "right" and responsibility to control their borders, and will.

This is unlikely to end well. They are getting bad advice to continue. 

JR 
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 30, 2018, 08:22:33 AM
In case I wasn't clear, they broke Mexican law by breaking through the southern border fence.
They're 'illegals' because they broke a fence, with the Guatemalan police standing right next to them? The Mexican state was also obviously incapable of controlling a crowd of 7000 people, helpless as they watched their country be "invaded" by famished refugees?

This rhetoric is ridiculous. There are football stadiums in Mexico that can seat close to 100'000 people. No-one in mexico is afraid of 7000 refugees, and if they're in Mexico, it's because they allowed them in.

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Their apparent intent is to ignore US immigration procedure and therefore law .
Their "apparent intent" is to apply for asylum at the border! It's been documented that's exactly what these caravans do:
Your own law states these people MUST be on American soil to apply for asylum, so they're following your legal procedure!!!

Your 'loopholes' also have nothing to do with these migrants – nothing right or wrong about using the law to your advantage (your own President openly brags about using 'loopholes' to his advantage).

What is it you always say: "Don't like it? Go out and vote!"
If you don't like your immigration laws, you know what to do!   ;)

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Mexico has offered them asylum that has been declined so if they were indeed desperate refugees they should welcome asylum anywhere, this appears coached and orchestrated for political ends (but I repeat misguided as it will likely have the opposite effect  from intentions.)
Because you know what it's like to be a refugee/asylum seeker, and what a refugee should and shouldn't do?
You know what it's like to live in Honduras?
All from personal experience?

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Their intent to take advantage of loopholes and gaps in immigration law do not make this right.  There are millions following the rules and procedures, waiting in queue to become US citizens legally. These attempts to jump the line is unfair to all them.
Again, your own law states they MUST be on US soil to apply for asylum.

You're being incredibly disingenuous by claiming these people are 'breaking the rules'.

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Sovereign governments have the "right" and responsibility to control their borders, and will.
Thanks for the Israeli rhetoric used to justify wholesale murder. It's 7000 people: you do not need military or deadly force to control 7000 people, half of which are women and children. If this ends badly, it's because your country is run by a nut.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: dmp on October 30, 2018, 10:51:44 AM
So I see the same thing going on in this thread as in the national news of the USA. Trump says something inflammatory, often completely contradicting facts, and it takes over all the oxygen in the room, which then dominates the discussion. For instance Trump said this morning he would end birthright citizenship (granted in the 14th amendment in the Constitution)with an executive order. This is Ridiculous, but what is not being talked about?

- The Republican tax cut to the wealthy blew a whole in the budget and Republicans are planning to cut Social Security and Medicare. Several Republicans (like McConnell) are on tape saying this.
- Trump and Republicans have repeatedly tried & voted to undo the ban on pre-existing conditions, yet they claim the opposite.  When they blatantly lie about something like this, why do people even consider voting for them?
- Trump's rhetoric has radicalized his supporters and incited violence in the USA. He congratulated a Republican congressman that physically assaulted a reported. He calls the media the enemy. He has tweeted violent imagery against his political opponents. He has called for his political opponents to be imprisoned.
- Trump's recklessness has put the country in danger (using insecure phones that hostile countries have been able to listen to)
- Trump's own taxes are something he keeps secret, reportedly because he has evaded taxes, like others (Manafort) in his administration. They are un-American and criminal.
- Trump's trade war has now endangered the strong economy he inherited
- Trump's administration has been filled with scandals with indictments & guilty pleas (Manafort, etc...).

Its better to ignore arguments made in bad faith that are just about playing team politics, and focus on the issues that matter.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 30, 2018, 12:45:36 PM
They're 'illegals' because they broke a fence, with the Guatemalan police standing right next to them? The Mexican state was also obviously incapable of controlling a crowd of 7000 people, helpless as they watched their country be "invaded" by famished refugees?

This rhetoric is ridiculous. There are football stadiums in Mexico that can seat close to 100'000 people. No-one in mexico is afraid of 7000 refugees, and if they're in Mexico, it's because they allowed them in.
Mexico has tolerated them passing through, they have far larger rule of law problems to deal with than this. BUT they were not welcomed in, they broke through a border fence. Mexico is now beginning to appreciate that if this caravan is stopped at the border, they will become Mexico's problem.
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Their "apparent intent" is to apply for asylum at the border! It's been documented that's exactly what these caravans do:
Your own law states these people MUST be on American soil to apply for asylum, so they're following your legal procedure!!!
Not exactly... they can apply for hardship  refugee status at US embassies around the world. They don't even try because the vast majority do not qualify and would be refused.

Quote from: refugee status
A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.
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Your 'loopholes' also have nothing to do with these migrants – nothing right or wrong about using the law to your advantage (your own President openly brags about using 'loopholes' to his advantage).
When the law as written is insufficient to handle the latest strategy to game the system (overload the appeals court system), the law must be adjusted. Right now democrats and republicans are both willing to leave this unfixed. (Both are raising piles of campaign money from these visuals). 
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What is it you always say: "Don't like it? Go out and vote!"
I recently suggested to our German friend that "he" be sure to vote... He actually just had an election where Merkel's party lost enough seats that she stepped down as party leader and decided to not run for another term. I am ok with you not voting.  ::)
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If you don't like your immigration laws, you know what to do!   ;)
Yes, I have been arguing for rational immigration reform forever, and voted for people promising reform, but this is a large enough issue that it requires bipartisan compromise, and cooperation across part lines is pretty scarce in the swamp these days.
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Because you know what it's like to be a refugee/asylum seeker, and what a refugee should and shouldn't do?
No I have traveled to several countries and spent time in Mexico a couple times, but never central/south america. Brazil just elected a conservative leader FWIW.
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You know what it's like to live in Honduras?
I know a few people from Honduras. A sales girl working at Peavey that a friend of mine dated for a couple years, and another local guy who is a great musician, and worked in Peavey QA. He couldn't play at my house parties because he was always working paying gigs on satuday nights (he would come early for the chili and beers... I would start serving the chili around noon on days of my parties for my working musician friends). He gave me a birthday present one year (hand carved wooden salad fork and spoon) that are still hanging on my wall as pieces of art decades later.
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All from personal experience?
don't claim to have "that" personal experience... we are blessed to be born here and so few appreciate it.
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Again, your own law states they MUST be on US soil to apply for asylum.
Embassies work...  but when refused at the border they get humanitarian treatment and opportunity to appeal here, instead of a short walk to the sidewalk.  One solution would be greyhound bus rides south. They could appeal their rejection at the embassy down there.
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You're being incredibly disingenuous by claiming these people are 'breaking the rules'.
They are clearly "economic" migrants, looking for a better life. There are rules for doing that with a very long waiting list of people ahead of them.
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Thanks for the Israeli rhetoric used to justify wholesale murder.
Huh.... that seems more than a little hyperbolic...  If these folks were lobbing missiles into our populated areas (to murder our civilians) we would likely respond in kind, and worse.
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It's 7000 people: you do not need military or deadly force to control 7000 people, half of which are women and children. If this ends badly, it's because your country is run by a nut.
This one caravan the world is watching and if they succeed more will follow. I mentioned one person was already killed in a second caravan already trying to do the same thing. The messaging matters, sending troops to the border is not to kill anybody, just discourage them.

There is an estimated  10-12 million unauthorized immigrants already in the US. Border crossings is just one way they get in. Many overstay legal visas. We welcome legal immigration, our nation was build on legal immigration, my ancestors immigrated here, legally. We are a wealthy and generous people but that generosity has limits and people are gaming our laws and systems, to jump the line for personal benefit. This is unfair to everybody else. We have hundreds of thousands homeless right here that could use some help first.

JR   

PS: Expect about another week of political talking points on steroids... I can't (won't) fact check everything so caveat lector (reader beware).
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 30, 2018, 07:20:07 PM
Huh.... that seems more than a little hyperbolic...  If these folks were lobbing missiles into our populated areas (to murder our civilians) we would likely respond in kind, and worse. This one caravan the world is watching and if they succeed more will follow. I mentioned one person was already killed in a second caravan already trying to do the same thing. The messaging matters, sending troops to the border is not to kill anybody, just discourage them.

Yes, predictably you agree with Israeli snipers shooting unarmed Palestinians – but that isn't the point. Word for word, it's the justification used by Israel to kill people at its border.

Quote
There is an estimated  10-12 million unauthorized immigrants already in the US. Border crossings is just one way they get in. Many overstay legal visas. We welcome legal immigration, our nation was build on legal immigration, my ancestors immigrated here, legally. We are a wealthy and generous people but that generosity has limits and people are gaming our laws and systems, to jump the line for personal benefit. This is unfair to everybody else. We have hundreds of thousands homeless right here that could use some help first.

Is it unfair to everyone else these "illegals" pay $7B/year to social security, and $12B/year in taxes?

How about you use some of that money to help your homeless?

Anyway, dmp is right, we're going round in circles just for the sake of arguing.

I'll leave you with a number: if this entire caravan ended up in Los Angeles, it would represent 0.175% of the total population.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 30, 2018, 09:54:59 PM
Your article deals with "immigrants" – the "legal" ones. Illegal immigration bars access to welfare.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: s2udio on October 31, 2018, 09:19:32 AM
Illegal immigration bars access to welfare.
As it should, I really do not understand why it should be otherwise.
So I should pay my tax bill to give it away to illegal imagrants........come on WTF
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 31, 2018, 12:23:57 PM
So I see the same thing going on in this thread as in the national news of the USA. Trump says something inflammatory, often completely contradicting facts, and it takes over all the oxygen in the room, which then dominates the discussion. For instance Trump said this morning he would end birthright citizenship (granted in the 14th amendment in the Constitution)with an executive order. This is Ridiculous, but what is not being talked about?
Yes as I have noted before that seems to be his playbook...

I don't want to give President Trump credit he doesn't deserve but raising the 14th amendment to nation discussion will teach low information voters some history (republicans granted citizenship to children of slaves).

Once again the ongoing civics lesson...

===\

Looks like you will have to list the liberal/progressive talking points yourself...  ::)

JR
Quote
- The Republican tax cut to the wealthy blew a whole in the budget and Republicans are planning to cut Social Security and Medicare. Several Republicans (like McConnell) are on tape saying this.
- Trump and Republicans have repeatedly tried & voted to undo the ban on pre-existing conditions, yet they claim the opposite.  When they blatantly lie about something like this, why do people even consider voting for them?
- Trump's rhetoric has radicalized his supporters and incited violence in the USA. He congratulated a Republican congressman that physically assaulted a reported. He calls the media the enemy. He has tweeted violent imagery against his political opponents. He has called for his political opponents to be imprisoned.
- Trump's recklessness has put the country in danger (using insecure phones that hostile countries have been able to listen to)
- Trump's own taxes are something he keeps secret, reportedly because he has evaded taxes, like others (Manafort) in his administration. They are un-American and criminal.
- Trump's trade war has now endangered the strong economy he inherited
- Trump's administration has been filled with scandals with indictments & guilty pleas (Manafort, etc...).

Its better to ignore arguments made in bad faith that are just about playing team politics, and focus on the issues that matter.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: living sounds on October 31, 2018, 01:35:45 PM
republicans granted citizenship to children of slaves

And in the 19th century there was actual cocaine in Coca Cola.

Brand names stay the same, but the product may change significantly. Todays GOP has very little overlap with the party of Lincoln's day.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on October 31, 2018, 05:03:23 PM
And in the 19th century there was actual cocaine in Coca Cola.
coca cola was invented about 2 decades after the 14th amendment but yes in the same century...
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Brand names stay the same, but the product may change significantly. Todays GOP has very little overlap with the party of Lincoln's day.

Political parties are constantly evolving and indeed they have even swapped ideology  (like the earths magnetic poles reportedly have)... I was not making a substantive argument just suggesting how it could be spun for low information voters. (Its what they do, but AFAIK they haven't yet).

JR

[edit] speaking about political drift (or hypocrisy) here is a Harry Reid speech from the 60's about the 14th amendment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWc1qT8M1eU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWc1qT8M1eU)
All politicians evolve over decades, Harry Reid perhaps quicker than that.  :o  [/edit]
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Banzai on October 31, 2018, 05:54:30 PM
As it should, I really do not understand why it should be otherwise.
So I should pay my tax bill to give it away to illegal imagrants........come on WTF

Are you feeling okay??  ???

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/304/old.jpg)
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on November 01, 2018, 10:29:59 AM
Are you feeling okay??  ???

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/019/304/old.jpg)
How did you find that picture of me (get off my yard)?   ::)

I though I removed all my facial images from the WWW.

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: hodad on November 01, 2018, 01:21:12 PM

You mean like this 2014 image?
Don't be played.   8)

JR

You know, of course, that that image does not indicate that Obama's immigration policies were not the same as Trump's?  Or are you really that ignorant? 

I'm pretty sure I debunked all that nonsense here a couple of months ago.  It took me about 20 minutes to get a fairly clear idea that all of the whataboutism the GOP apparatchiks attached to this picture was a load of crap. 

So you're either ill-informed about this subject, or you're knowingly spreading false information because it supports your beliefs. 

So which is it:  are you ignorant or a liar? 
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on November 01, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
You know, of course, that that image does not indicate that Obama's immigration policies were not the same as Trump's?  Or are you really that ignorant? 
I didn't say it did, but I posted it as a tweak because it was first circulated by a democrat to criticize President Trump. Now that was ignorant.  ::)

As I said then and I repeat now  "Immigration law is tangled up and I blame both parties for this. ".

FWIW President Obama  was elected with a supermajority and instead of fixing immigration, spent all that political capital on passing a democratic health care bill without a single republican vote. By the end of his administration, his political capital depleted he lacked votes to change immigration and used his "pen and his phone" (executive orders) to make temporary changes.
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I'm pretty sure I debunked all that nonsense here a couple of months ago.  It took me about 20 minutes to get a fairly clear idea that all of the whataboutism the GOP apparatchiks attached to this picture was a load of crap. 
It's what both sides do, don't claim that only republicans play politics. That might be considered ignorant.
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So you're either ill-informed about this subject, or you're knowingly spreading false information because it supports your beliefs. 

So which is it:  are you ignorant or a liar?
I don't care for either of those two choices... how about you? Are you ignorant or a liar?  ::) (I don't suspect you are either just giving you a sense for how it feels.)

I am ignorant about a lot but not this topic.  8)

I do not lie intentionally and I trust you will correct any mistakes I make inadvertently.

I have debunked a ton of crap over the years right here, but still have to repeat myself. Like Sisyphus rolling that rock up the hill.
(http://www.mythweb.com/encyc/zooms/sisyphus.gif)

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: DaveP on November 01, 2018, 05:08:08 PM
Back on topic:

Where is the next Democratic Presidential candidate?

Only two years to go and no sign of one!

I've read that most people expect it to be Biden?

Doesn't there need to be someone for the voting public to get to know?  They can't just spring an unknown at the last minute, surely?

What a weird system you have over there.

DaveP
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on November 01, 2018, 05:59:19 PM
Back on topic:

Where is the next Democratic Presidential candidate?

Only two years to go and no sign of one!
Perhaps some of the democratic supporters here could answer better but it appears that several are jockeying for that position, not to mention that Hillary in recent interview said that she would like the job (but maybe not the campaigning for it part).

Elizabeth Warren was reportedly trying to clear skeletons out of her closet in anticipation for a 2020 run, but may have shot herself in the foot with the ancestry claims. 

The expectation is that there may be even more democratic hopefuls this time than the republican circus last time.
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I've read that most people expect it to be Biden?
He is a little too old, probably kicking himself for deferring to Hillary and not running last time.
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Doesn't there need to be someone for the voting public to get to know?  They can't just spring an unknown at the last minute, surely?
There are several jockeying for air time.. I don't want to insult any by not mentioning them but Cory Booker is on the list. More will come out more vocally after the mid term.
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What a weird system you have over there.

DaveP
Yes, I am jealous of other country systems that don't waste so much time, money and effort on campaigning (lying), just to get elected and start campaigning all over again. We used to get pauses between elections to actually govern... now not so much.

JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: Gold on November 01, 2018, 06:08:35 PM
Back on topic:

Where is the next Democratic Presidential candidate?

Only two years to go and no sign of one!

I've read that most people expect it to be Biden?

Doesn't there need to be someone for the voting public to get to know?  They can't just spring an unknown at the last minute, surely?

What a weird system you have over there.

DaveP

We like out of nowhere Presidents. No one knew who Clinton was when he ran. Bush was the opposite. Obama was a little known first time senator. Trump. Democrats are itching to take on Trump. I think someone good will emerge because of all the interest. None of the commonly floated names seem right to me.  I actually think it’s too early to tip  your hand if you are serious.
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on November 21, 2018, 04:40:13 PM
Back on topic:

Where is the next Democratic Presidential candidate?

Only two years to go and no sign of one!

I've read that most people expect it to be Biden?

Doesn't there need to be someone for the voting public to get to know?  They can't just spring an unknown at the last minute, surely?

What a weird system you have over there.

DaveP
It is still too early to know with any certainty, but people are starting to assemble lists... at this point politicians with name recognition will rank high on the list so Biden, Bernie, and the like, score top spots... I doubt they will remain that high but with pot being legalized in more states who knows?  ::)

[edit] and how could I forget Hillary? She still has beaucoup name recognition and likely wants the job. [/edit]
JR
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: scott2000 on November 21, 2018, 07:17:46 PM
Wonder why nobody in media is mentioning Andrew Yang......fazer's thread introduced his name to me personally and I think he'll be someone interesting to watch......

Andrew Yang's Pitch to America - We Must Evolve to a New Form of Capitalism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkH0xGUgR0c
Title: Re: A democracy in crisis
Post by: JohnRoberts on November 21, 2018, 07:55:56 PM
We like out of nowhere Presidents. No one knew who Clinton was when he ran.
enough knew who he was to win the primary... He was (is) a very popular ex-governor from Arkansas. Southern governors gained currency after Jimmy Carter won the WH.  Living in MS for decades I have heard much gossip about him, partying around with MS governor (Mabus). Reportedly he was a horndog back then too.  ::)
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Bush was the opposite.
Bush was part of another political family dynasty (not unlike the Kennedys).
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Obama was a little known first time senator.
He was well known regionally and cultivated by the Chicago political machine. He made his bones at the democratic convention with a very successful speech.
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Trump.
yes he is the square peg in modern politics... One popular theory is that he stood out as different on a stage full of similar conventional political hopefuls, and that helped him win his primary. 
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Democrats are itching to take on Trump.
They are looking for a same but different anti-Trump. There are likely to be more democrats on the primary debate stage than republicans had last time. Trump-like names floated are Michael Moore, Alec Baldwin, Rosie O'Donnell... (good luck with that). There are numerous senators jockeying for political position, not to mention the leftovers from last couple races. 
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I think someone good will emerge because of all the interest. None of the commonly floated names seem right to me.  I actually think it’s too early to tip  your hand if you are serious.
Never too early and several Democrat senators have been playing to the cameras thinking about 2020 for months.

Good luck, the demo primary will be a real scrum and probably more closely inspected for shenanigans than last time. I think there have been a few rules changes instituted because of the last time.

JR