GroupDIY

Project Specific Discussions => Microphones => Topic started by: Deadrecords on February 14, 2019, 11:26:21 PM

Title: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 14, 2019, 11:26:21 PM
I have been mixing for a while. I normally use a u87 and Manley although the manley sounds similar to the Sony it’s just not the same. I am spoiled after traveling to la and finally getting to use one in a session myself. I don’t have the money to buy a legit original one. I have also never built a microphone but I am eager to learn. Do any of you have any recommendations on how I can  learn how to build a clone of the Sony C800G? Or a link to a kit of some sort? I know the Russian tubes sound better on it and it replicates a k67 capsule. Anyways, if any of you can point me to the right direction on how I can achieve my goal and learn to do this please respond!!
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on February 15, 2019, 02:19:48 AM
I don't know if there's been any clones that are actually similar to the C800G.  You can check out whichever Advanced Audio mic is modeled after the C800G, but it not might be an accurate recreation.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 15, 2019, 04:08:17 AM
Thank you for your reply! I saw the cmt but I have not heard  and couldn't find any actual files, or reviews from it.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on February 15, 2019, 04:16:34 AM
Thank you for your reply! I saw the cmt but I have not heard  and couldn't find any actual files, or reviews from it.
This thread has a bit of info:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1165366-advanced-audio-cm800t-aas-take-sony-c800g-4.html
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: kingkorg on February 15, 2019, 04:17:38 AM
Well the biggest challegne would be to find a capsule that is spot on to get c800 sound.

Yes that Manley capsule is very close, but i doubt you could get closer without buying the actual sony capsule, which costs an arm and a leg.

The capsule is the most important part, then headbasket, and eventually everything else as the circuit is flat, and doesn't do much to affect the sound of that mic.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Khron on February 15, 2019, 06:08:26 AM
Wasn't the capsule just some K67-like one? I may very well be mistaken, though...
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Gus on February 15, 2019, 06:15:28 AM
 Things that can matter (one version) in descending order.

Capsule, grill, capsule mount, output transformer(lams used, winding),  tube (needs selection), power supply because of the current and some other parts of the design , tube cryopump, body, parts used type value etc.

All that can matter.

The cooler is to adsorb the molecules in the tube to the glass wall longer because of the glass being cooler.

So without at least a  few of the above building a clone might be difficult because of obtaining the correct parts.

I believe people are missing a lot of what is a different about this design from what is posted on the web. I have not seen some of what I noticed about the circuits used posted.

With a triode out to transformer microphone the capsule and the environment around it and the output transformer matter a lot.

Now a person might not understand this unless they have built a number of microphones trying different parts and mechanical and circuit configurations.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: snigglepit on February 15, 2019, 07:19:09 AM
Have you tried the Sony C100? It sounds pretty close to the C800 at a much lower price.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: kingkorg on February 15, 2019, 07:26:22 AM
Have you tried the Sony C100? It sounds pretty close to the C800 at a much lower price.

+1
And i actually think it's a better mic. If it were 3.000$ everyone would be raving about ut.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Delta Sigma on February 15, 2019, 10:15:38 AM
No experience with it but there's the JJ Atika.

http://jjaudiomic.com/Akita.php
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 15, 2019, 08:17:22 PM
This thread has a bit of info:
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1165366-advanced-audio-cm800t-aas-take-sony-c800g-4.html

Thank you for this I am going to have to look more into this. I do think based off of what I am hearing they do sound very similar.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 15, 2019, 08:19:36 PM
Well the biggest challegne would be to find a capsule that is spot on to get c800 sound.

Yes that Manley capsule is very close, but i doubt you could get closer without buying the actual sony capsule, which costs an arm and a leg.

The capsule is the most important part, then headbasket, and eventually everything else as the circuit is flat, and doesn't do much to affect the sound of that mic.

I understand this I am really looking for someone to point me to a article, video or book where I can learn how to put these parts together when I find them and create a functional working mic.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 15, 2019, 08:22:00 PM
Wasn't the capsule just some K67-like one? I may very well be mistaken, though...

I had meant to type K67 not 87 I am sorry.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 15, 2019, 08:23:05 PM
Things that can matter (one version) in descending order.

Capsule, grill, capsule mount, output transformer(lams used, winding),  tube (needs selection), power supply because of the current and some other parts of the design , tube cryopump, body, parts used type value etc.

All that can matter.

The cooler is to adsorb the molecules in the tube to the glass wall longer because of the glass being cooler.

So without at least a  few of the above building a clone might be difficult because of obtaining the correct parts.

I believe people are missing a lot of what is a different about this design from what is posted on the web. I have not seen some of what I noticed about the circuits used posted.

With a triode out to transformer microphone the capsule and the environment around it and the output transformer matter a lot.

Now a person might not understand this unless they have built a number of microphones trying different parts and mechanical and circuit configurations.

I understand this I am really looking for someone to point me to a article, video or book where I can learn how to put these parts together when I finally have completed my research and find  the parts I am looking for to create a functional working mic.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: gyraf on February 16, 2019, 02:40:38 AM
Deadrecords,

Please think of what you are asking.

You want a paint-by-numbers kit for a 10000$ microphone.

More or less everything that has been dissected and kit'ified around here is now also brought to you cheaply by Warm, Stam, Klark & Co.

So no, it's not that easy. The suggestions above all try to point you in a direction where YOU could do some of the work, possibly learning something in the process.

Jakob E.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 16, 2019, 03:29:37 AM
Deadrecords,

Please think of what you are asking.

You want a paint-by-numbers kit for a 10000$ microphone.

More or less everything that has been dissected and kit'ified around here is now also brought to you cheaply by Warm, Stam, Klark & Co.

So no, it's not that easy. The suggestions above all try to point you in a direction where YOU could do some of the work, possibly learning something in the process.

Jakob E.

I think you aren't understanding what I am asking.  I am not asking for a kit to build a sony c800g I asking to get pointed in the right direction on how I can learn to assemble a microphone after I have found the correct parts via online research. I have never put together a microphone.  Where can I learn how to assemble a advanced microphone configuration if I were to  find the parts and read the schematics?  So say say I have found all the parts I need. How do I go about learning how to actually assemble it? 
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: gyraf on February 16, 2019, 03:56:45 AM
The point is there is no single resource.

Work your way into this, read up on all the related threads here and in other forums, build a couple of mics or ten, and then you'll gradually get an idea about how to achieve a specific thing.

There's no going there directly.

To put it into perspective, a friend of mine has spent ALL his time the last 17 years trying to understand what exactly goes on inside one famous Austrian microphone capsule. Yes, he's getting there - and No, it's not because he's slow - for every partial behavior he discovers, there are interactions with multiple others, making the whole an utterly complex mechanism for such a simple device.

It is a surprisingly complicated field.

Which also makes so rewarding to those that are prepared to spend the time and do the deep diving.

Much less so for the impatient.

A starting point could be e.g. my now very-old page about the G7: http://gyraf.dk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/DIY-Tube-Microphone.pdf - or the classic Debanham/Stebbings http://www.sdiy.org/oid/ldc/Debenham-StereoCondenser.pdf - both discussed extensively in this forum, if you look under /Microphones

Jakob E.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Deadrecords on February 16, 2019, 08:15:31 AM
The point is there is no single resource.

Work your way into this, read up on all the related threads here and in other forums, build a couple of mics or ten, and then you'll gradually get an idea about how to achieve a specific thing.

There's no going there directly.

To put it into perspective, a friend of mine has spent ALL his time the last 17 years trying to understand what exactly goes on inside one famous Austrian microphone capsule. Yes, he's getting there - and No, it's not because he's slow - for every partial behavior he discovers, there are interactions with multiple others, making the whole an utterly complex mechanism for such a simple device.

It is a surprisingly complicated field.

Which also makes so rewarding to those that are prepared to spend the time and do the deep diving.

Much less so for the impatient.

A starting point could be e.g. my now very-old page about the G7: http://gyraf.dk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/DIY-Tube-Microphone.pdf - or the classic Debanham/Stebbings http://www.sdiy.org/oid/ldc/Debenham-StereoCondenser.pdf - both discussed extensively in this forum, if you look under /Microphones

Jakob E.

ahhh I see. I will definitely check these articles out and start my journey. Thank you!
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Gus on February 16, 2019, 10:07:26 AM
Deadrecords,

Please think of what you are asking.

You want a paint-by-numbers kit for a 10000$ microphone.

More or less everything that has been dissected and kit'ified around here is now also brought to you cheaply by Warm, Stam, Klark & Co.

So no, it's not that easy. The suggestions above all try to point you in a direction where YOU could do some of the work, possibly learning something in the process.

Jakob E.

Jakob

This post and your following post in this thread would make a nice microphone forum sticky


Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Mworthin on February 20, 2019, 01:59:54 AM
I would also put in a plug for a kit microphone, like those from Microphone Parts, or some of the ones available through the community here for a beginner.

Yes, for M-P, you could do it more cheaply, but for a rank beginner, learning to solder, deflux a Board, deal with the high Z parts of a circuit, handle a delicate capsule,  etc, are essential skills,and the instructions are very good. You won’t have to bias a FET mic your first time out if that is the route you choose because the bias resistor is chosen for you, so you don’t need expensive test equipment to start.  There are tube options.

I considered the extra expense part of my initial education,  and now have moved on... just a thought. ..

My G7 build follows Banzai’s KM84s....once you get the bug, it never stops...

—Mark
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on February 20, 2019, 02:39:48 AM
I would also put in a plug for a kit microphone, like those from Microphone Parts, or some of the ones available through the community here for a beginner.

Yes, for M-P, you could do it more cheaply, but for a rank beginner, learning to solder, deflux a Board, deal with the high Z parts of a circuit, handle a delicate capsule,  etc, are essential skills,and the instructions are very good. You won’t have to bias a FET mic your first time out if that is the route you choose because the bias resistor is chosen for you, so you don’t need expensive test equipment to start.  There are tube options.

I considered the extra expense part of my initial education,  and now have moved on... just a thought. ..

My G7 build follows Banzai’s KM84s....once you get the bug, it never stops...

—Mark
I don't think the PCB kits are nearly as bad of a deal if you don't already have a useable donor mic, as long as you don't pay MP $150 for a $30 Chinese capsule. If you're spending that much on a capsule go with Maiku or 3U Audio, not an iSK capsule you're paying 5x the factory price of.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Gus on February 20, 2019, 05:57:35 AM
I have been mixing for a while. I normally use a u87 and Manley although the manley sounds similar to the Sony it’s just not the same. I am spoiled after traveling to la and finally getting to use one in a session myself. I don’t have the money to buy a legit original one. I have also never built a microphone but I am eager to learn. Do any of you have any recommendations on how I can  learn how to build a clone of the Sony C800G? Or a link to a kit of some sort? I know the Russian tubes sound better on it and it replicates a k67 capsule. Anyways, if any of you can point me to the right direction on how I can achieve my goal and learn to do this please respond!!

Is it your u87? and what Manley microphone?
If it is a u87 you could remove the lowpass
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Khron on February 20, 2019, 06:00:05 AM
IF we're talking learning to solder, there are other cheaper electronic assemble-it-yourself kits out there - not necessarily microphones.

Deflux boards? A q-tip and some IPA / rubbing alcohol (the higher concentration, the better). Never had to / bothered to do that outside the Hi-Z areas in mics (not to mention anywhere else), and i've yet to encounter any issues due to that (in 15+ years of soldering).

Hi-Z parts? A (clean) pair of tweezers. Or two.

FET biasing? An audio interface, even a cheap one, some free software, and a bit of elbow-grease ;)

Yes, for M-P, you could do it more cheaply, but for a rank beginner, learning to solder, deflux a Board, deal with the high Z parts of a circuit, handle a delicate capsule,  etc, are essential skills,and the instructions are very good. You won’t have to bias a FET mic your first time out if that is the route you choose because the bias resistor is chosen for you, so you don’t need expensive test equipment to start.

—Mark

Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Icantthinkofaname on February 20, 2019, 06:24:35 AM
IF we're talking learning to solder, there are other cheaper electronic assemble-it-yourself kits out there - not necessarily microphones.

Deflux boards? A q-tip and some IPA / rubbing alcohol (the higher concentration, the better). Never had to / bothered to do that outside the Hi-Z areas in mics (not to mention anywhere else), and i've yet to encounter any issues due to that (in 15+ years of soldering).

Hi-Z parts? A (clean) pair of tweezers. Or two.

FET biasing? An audio interface, even a cheap one, some free software, and a bit of elbow-grease ;)
A bit off topic, but how does one bias the FET using an audio interface and software? Got a link to an article or thread?
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Khron on February 20, 2019, 07:01:03 AM
Not 100% sure if or where one might find a / the bespoke article, but it's quite simple (imho).

DAW - signal generator - interface output - [optional signal pad / attenuation] - coupling capacitor (1nF) - JFET gate
Mic - XLR cable - interface input - DAW - oscilloscope plugin (most DAWs have one in the stock library)

Start with said output at minimum, slowly raise it until the circuitry (not the interface input) starts to clip on the top or bottom of the test-sinewave, turn the bias trimpot to remove the clipping, increase signal level, "rinse and repeat" until both the top & bottom clip around-about the same time (or level) :)

Exactly the same as you'd do with a physical, hardware signal generator and oscilloscope. Minus the expensive test gear ;D Mind you, you'd still need the mic connected to something that provides phantom power anyway.

[Edit] Found a video, too - https://youtu.be/SHD4Rrwqy_Q?t=1014 Arguably a bit "long-winded", but pretty damn thorough - includes a description of how the circuitry in that particular mic works, etc.

A bit off topic, but how does one bias the FET using an audio interface and software? Got a link to an article or thread?
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Mworthin on February 20, 2019, 08:20:07 AM
I wish I had had this thread when I was starting out!
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: kingkorg on February 20, 2019, 03:09:25 PM
Been there done that, i really think it's a waste of time. Hats down to anyone who can hear 0.1% thd difference recorded at 140db. I had to inject pretty high levels of signal into FET to make it show some serious harmonics, the kind capsule is never going to be able to produce.

While it's a great idea to check it for a clean mic build, or if something is wrong with one, FET swap, but re-biasing stock mics never did anything for me.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: thecr4ne on February 21, 2019, 05:10:41 PM
I was looking into something along these lines too. Have a look at this http://www.foxaudioresearch.ca/c800clone.htm (http://www.foxaudioresearch.ca/c800clone.htm)

Also, I did email Dave at Advanced Audio and he suggested using a Nady TCM 1050 (the good version with the actual tube socket and better capsule) keeping the original capsule and doing his Apex 460 Mod with AA's BV-18 transformer to get pretty close.
*It's worth noting this was his recommendation for a DIY version and is not what the CM-800 is.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: kingkorg on February 21, 2019, 06:04:04 PM
I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but DT said pretty much what i did before.

"The Sony design is not an exact replica and shows a response that has less mid-range lift than a typical K67.  The high-end lift is about the same amount as a K67. This is the single most important part in setting the tone of the c800 in our opinion."

Find the capsule that nails that sound and stick it into almost anything and you are there. The 32mm Nady capsule is not even close IMHO. I would rather go with something like 797audio's k67, or the capsule Manley uses in their Cardioid reference, that is also found in 100$ Sterling Audio ST51(cardioid only though)!!!
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Khron on February 21, 2019, 06:08:19 PM
PS: I know this might be borderline blasphemous, but... I seem to recall reading somewhere (possibly even here) that the whole tube-cooling stuff is just a gimmick  ???

Which kinda makes sense, if you stop and think about it a bit. According to the service manual, plate voltage is 90v and idle plate current about 1.4mA, which works out to about an eigth of a watt (datasheet quotes the maximum as 3.5W).  Plus about 1.7W from the heater.
The Peltier element itself burns off almost 5W all on its own.

Is the temperature - noise correlation in (such) small-signal pentodes / triodes really that severe, that would warrant all the extra complexity?

So how come extra-cooling-less tubes have been just fine for decades, everywhere else (i'm thinking other tube mics and preamps), anyway?
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: kingkorg on February 21, 2019, 06:24:45 PM
+1

I think Jacob mentioned somewhere it theoretically could reduce tube noise for couple of db at best, but that's about it.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Gus on February 21, 2019, 07:35:12 PM


The tube cooling is a type of cryopump the gas molecules will adsorb to the glass wall keeping them more often on the glass than in the vacuum envelope.  This helps with the higher current.
You can do this with a microphone that costs what this does.  I wonder why the heatpipe/heatsink was not pointed down?

Other things the web gets wrong the capsule voltage divider is lower value resistors to act as a shunt load on the power supply. 

Super caps in the heater supply

The tube diodes in the power supply will help get rid of diode switching on and off edges and things that can cause.

Nothing wrong with a 6AU6 it is pentode wired as a triode like other pentodes wired as triodes in microphones

EI lamination core transformer. EIs sound different than DIs to me as well as alloy, winding, stacking of the lams.

You can underheat some tubes it depends on the Ni alloy and oxides best way to test is trying different heater voltages. In my tube testing most 6.3VDC can be under heated to 5.8VDC sometimes lower. Note tube transconductance can drop with lower heating.

There is more.
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: JessJackson on March 23, 2019, 04:26:46 AM
Gus is right..

I own two c800g and they run 5.7v heater.

playing around with circuits I discovered most of sonics of this mic due to 6au6a (long body Russian style)

Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: Gus on July 30, 2019, 08:46:24 AM
JessJackson

Your PM box is full
Title: Re: Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Post by: gyraf on July 30, 2019, 10:18:39 AM
If you want to go in this direction, try doing a mockup of the cooling fin and place behind a slightly hypercardioid mic  :o

..or, if you have a 800G around, try to put it behind e.g. a U89 with the fins at the same approximate distance to capsule. Yes, it does a difference, specially in an underdamped booth.

Jakob E.