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General Discussions => Brewery => Topic started by: JohnRoberts on March 29, 2020, 02:07:07 PM

Title: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 29, 2020, 02:07:07 PM
These days it seems all but impossible to ignore politics, and with a presidential election roughly a half year away, we are already in the silly season.

I absolutely do not want to make this more political, as if that was possible, but perhaps we can keep these political veers compartmentalized.  Of course I will have my right/libertarian biases in place.

#1 Health advice... POTUS is taking full advantage of the gift of daily press conferences to look presidential. Keeping spaced 5 feet apart makes a much less effective photo op... so some political handler's fingerprints are showing with them standing shoulder to shoulder against their own advice. They probably shouldn't even be in the same room.  (I made up a new drinking game, as if I needed an excuse... every time I see a health official or politician on TV touch their face I take a drink... I manage to keep my whistle pretty wet these days.)

#2 the social distancing and assembly rules will hurt political campaigns that depend on large gatherings, and face to face campaigning (not too many babies will get kissed this time around). It appears to have helped lock in the lead position for Joe Biden, while he does not come across strong from his bunker (opinion).  While not being openly discussed (yet) Gov Cuomo (NY ) is gaining political credibility ironically by not being blatantly political (like the NYC mayor), but fighting for his citizens and showing leadership. If he can get this health crisis satisfactorily into the rear view mirror I could imagine him being considered for drafting at the Dem convention, but of course I cannot predict the future.

#3  This crisis will (should) cause many of us to rethink the role of government, and how much are they actually capable of.  The small ball political response is to assign blame to those we don't like, often lacking basis, making it harder to see the real mistakes that surely exist.

#4 If politicians could fix this simply they would just pass laws outlawing COVID19 illegal and declare the problem is solved. They can't so we all need to figure this out together. 
===

Let's try to be respectful as usual... this could be the thread about politics but let's try to keep it somewhat objective and not just partisan venting.

JR

PS: I may regret this, but here goes.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on March 29, 2020, 03:14:01 PM
I think some politicians might want to simply pass laws outlawing threads like this ;)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on March 29, 2020, 03:15:37 PM
As to #3, it's an opportunity to look at how a wide variety of governments deal with the situation--whether it be China or South Korea, Germany or the UK, the US or Iran.  Many, many things to look at, and certainly a lot to consider. 

In the US:  when you have one party that for decades has professed to want a federal govt. small enough to drown in a bathtub, you've got to wonder how much  that party actually wants the govt. to be successful.  That is certainly in evidence when times are good, and now that there's a crisis that would benefit from leadership at the top, these folks seem to be scrambling to figure out what to do. 

Does govt. need to do everything?  No.  I was reading today that S. Korea gathered industry leaders pretty much as soon as they had their first case and set them to work on developing and producing tests for the virus.   Basically  that's the equivalent of the "public-private partnership" that Trump was touting in the US--a month or so later. 

Leadership, vision, coordination, communication--good things to see from your central govt. in a time of crisis.    Wishful thinking, denial, delay, contradiction, and obfuscation--not so good. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 29, 2020, 03:44:57 PM
I think some politicians might want to simply pass laws outlawing threads like this ;)
That's why we value the first amendment... and why it was the first....

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 29, 2020, 03:58:17 PM
As to #3, it's an opportunity to look at how a wide variety of governments deal with the situation--whether it be China or South Korea, Germany or the UK, the US or Iran.  Many, many things to look at, and certainly a lot to consider. 

In the US:  when you have one party that for decades has professed to want a federal govt. small enough to drown in a bathtub, you've got to wonder how much  that party actually wants the govt. to be successful.  That is certainly in evidence when times are good, and now that there's a crisis that would benefit from leadership at the top, these folks seem to be scrambling to figure out what to do. 

Does govt. need to do everything?  No.  I was reading today that S. Korea gathered industry leaders pretty much as soon as they had their first case and set them to work on developing and producing tests for the virus.   Basically  that's the equivalent of the "public-private partnership" that Trump was touting in the US--a month or so later. 

Leadership, vision, coordination, communication--good things to see from your central govt. in a time of crisis.    Wishful thinking, denial, delay, contradiction, and obfuscation--not so good.
yup...  at least in part.

I just finished reading a book this morning (I've been reading more books since pausing my newspaper). This book written by a conservative author with a decades long career in public/government service, articulated that one reasons for disfunction from government is due to size resulting in multi layer bureaucracies where upper levels take credit for success but kick the blame down the hierarchy. Additionally too many different agencies with similar missions diffuse responsibility so nobody is completely in charge or responsible.

An old lesson I learned in business if you tell more than one person to do something, they will each ASSume the other is responsible or actually doing it and nobody does it... (one of several lessons learned the hard way... there's more).  8)

I am encouraged to see the different responsible government agencies all in the same room appearing to work together (but maybe they could video conference in or stand further apart to set a better example). Appearance is better than nothing but the proof is yet to come.

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on March 29, 2020, 04:33:32 PM
This really an odd thing to see happening here from the perspective of national security.  In general the conservatives have always pushed for a bigger military, the one part of a federal government they don't want to shrink.  So in that regard they seem to expect that it'll be the job of the feds to protect the population.  But now we have something that can't be fought with tanks or aircraft carriers and there's a great deal of confusion in the leadership. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: gyraf on March 30, 2020, 06:27:59 AM
OT:

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(I made up a new drinking game, as if I needed an excuse... every time I see a health official or politician on TV touch their face I take a drink... I manage to keep my whistle pretty wet these days.)

Thanks. This was my first coffee-through-the-nose laugh for a long time, appreciate it..  ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on March 30, 2020, 09:25:24 AM
I think there's a good chance that the Coronavirus will be the final nail in the coffin of neoliberal economics. Rightwing authoritarians and con men are unmasked and a massive shift takes place. It happened after the great depression and WW2 and even before the virus the time had been ripe for it.

Yesterday Boris Johnson wrote "there's such a thing as society". Wow.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on March 30, 2020, 11:46:53 AM
It's bothersome that Trump still feels the need to score political points by doing things like calling it the "Chinese virus," or by continuing to crap on Iran when they're clearly in the middle of a grave humanitarian crisis--and when their crisis affects many, many other nations as well.  And of course, his daily campaign appearances include a generous helping of Trump fluffing--sometimes by the folks around him, and sometimes he just fluffs himself.  This is not leadership.  This is self-serving and venal. 

If a leader does a good job of shepherding a nation in a time of crisis, usually good things come to him or her.  The praise doesn't have to be self-generated or part of the job descriptions of those around you--praise comes from doing your freaking job.  Doing a good job does not seem to come naturally to Trump--it would appear that it took the full force of the advisors around him to get him to come off the New York quarantine and the Easter Kill-a-Thon he had planned.  (He also managed to accuse medical workers of stealing masks, which is par for the course with Trump.)

Trump is the epitome of what JR described above:  a leader who takes praise for all successes and puts blame for all failures on those below him.  Sadly, he also struggles mightily with information that goes counter to what he wants to believe (eg, Trump refused not to believe the WTO usually rules against the US, even when presented with the fact that it usually rules in favor of the US), and he seems to be happier making stuff up than actually finding out why something might be the way it is (do you think he ever thought to ask why hospitals would run through so many more masks during a COVID epidemic?) 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 30, 2020, 12:23:10 PM
It's bothersome that Trump still feels the need to score political points by doing things like calling it the "Chinese virus," or by continuing to crap on Iran when they're clearly in the middle of a grave humanitarian crisis--and when their crisis affects many, many other nations as well.  And of course, his daily campaign appearances include a generous helping of Trump fluffing--sometimes by the folks around him, and sometimes he just fluffs himself.  This is not leadership.  This is self-serving and venal. 
This is no secret, President Trump was a blowhard reality TV star, and real estate promotor before entering politics. You can be critical of his persona (I am), but he managed to get elected despite that. That may say more about how weak his opponent was.
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If a leader does a good job of shepherding a nation in a time of crisis, usually good things come to him or her.  The praise doesn't have to be self-generated or part of the job descriptions of those around you--praise comes from doing your freaking job.  Doing a good job does not seem to come naturally to Trump--it would appear that it took the full force of the advisors around him to get him to come off the New York quarantine and the Easter Kill-a-Thon he had planned.  (He also managed to accuse medical workers of stealing masks, which is par for the course with Trump.)
As I tried to explain at the time President Trump's easter target was just a directional marker for the beginning of a negotiation. Before he changed the topic, everybody was estimating how long it would take for us all to get infected and die. Of course his initial target was optimistic, that is what he does, at least we are now working toward that more productive goal than the 24x7 doom and gloom pity party. We are now at least thinking about reopening the economy, moving in the right direction. Actual timing is to be determined by the facts on the ground as expected. We can walk and chew gum at the same time, so it is possible to both fight the virus, and work toward preventing a deep economic depression and saving jobs.

An honest inspection of his first term in office shows good results in many areas (not widely reported by an unfavorable media). Up until the Covid19 viral outbreak hit our economy was doing very well. Trying to blame him for the corona virus is par for the course. I recall much criticism when he first shut down travel coming from china. In hindsight that may have saved a lot of lives. There is plenty to be critical of about the government response, but they seem to be better focussed now, and private industry seems to be stepping up.
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Trump is the epitome of what JR described above:  a leader who takes praise for all successes and puts blame for all failures on those below him.  Sadly, he also struggles mightily with information that goes counter to what he wants to believe (eg, Trump refused not to believe the WTO usually rules against the US, even when presented with the fact that it usually rules in favor of the US), and he seems to be happier making stuff up than actually finding out why something might be the way it is (do you think he ever thought to ask why hospitals would run through so many more masks during a COVID epidemic?)
Opinions vary, but since you seem to know exactly what he is thinking, what's next?

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on March 30, 2020, 01:49:47 PM
Opinions vary, but since you seem to know exactly what he is thinking, what's next?

JR

I wish I knew.  I'm sure you think that's a swat at me--and it is. But with a response so unpredictable and inconsistent, shouldn't we all be trying to figure out what Trump might be thinking, or how he might be going about his decision making process? 
I think it's fair to say the man thinks rather highly of himself, and he needs praise from those around him.  Does he need that praise to feel validated, or to reassure him that those around him are loyal to him?   Some other reason?  He's also (by his own admission) unwilling and/or uninterested in ever apologizing or accepting blame, and he is (obviously) eager to give himself credit for anything positive. 

There's ample evidence that he struggles to focus on complex or lengthy discussions or explanations.  There's quite a bit of evidence that he is largely unwelcoming of opinions that contradict his own.  He seems rather incurious.  As much as he seems to like being a leader, he lacks many of the traits that make a great one.

Of course, you yourself spent a paragraph acting as if you know what Trump is thinking.  I dare say you're straining awfully hard to give him more credit than he deserves.  People did that in 2016.  People were wrong. 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 30, 2020, 02:52:45 PM
I wish I knew.  I'm sure you think that's a swat at me--and it is. But with a response so unpredictable and inconsistent, shouldn't we all be trying to figure out what Trump might be thinking, or how he might be going about his decision making process? 
I think it's fair to say the man thinks rather highly of himself, and he needs praise from those around him.  Does he need that praise to feel validated, or to reassure him that those around him are loyal to him?   Some other reason?  He's also (by his own admission) unwilling and/or uninterested in ever apologizing or accepting blame, and he is (obviously) eager to give himself credit for anything positive. 
Being self-deprecatory is rarely a successful strategy in political campaigns, and he never stopped campaigning.

There are years of concrete evidence of his decision making while in office, do not confuse his hyperbolic public bloviating with actual decision making.
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There's ample evidence that he struggles to focus on complex or lengthy discussions or explanations.  There's quite a bit of evidence that he is largely unwelcoming of opinions that contradict his own.  He seems rather incurious.  As much as he seems to like being a leader, he lacks many of the traits that make a great one.
ample evidence?
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Of course, you yourself spent a paragraph acting as if you know what Trump is thinking.  I dare say you're straining awfully hard to give him more credit than he deserves.  People did that in 2016.  People were wrong.
He actually wrote a book back in 1987 (co-authored with Tony Schwartz) "the art of the deal"  that reportedly describes his business methods/philosophy (I didn't read it, and don't plan to). By 2016 Schwartz and many of his industry peers went hard core anti-Trump so won't say anything remotely positive. 

"Win Bigly" a book written by Scott Adams that I did read offers some insight into how President Trump operates. Of course Scott Adams has been demonized by the left as an evil apologist for President Trump. I could lend you my copy to read but I gave it to a neighbor to read, and he may have passed it along already.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on March 30, 2020, 04:32:19 PM
Being self-deprecatory is rarely a successful strategy in political campaigns, and he never stopped campaigning.


Obama did very well very far with self-deprecatory humor. But he's pretty much in a class of his own. I'm getting nostalgic just by writing this... :-\
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on March 30, 2020, 04:51:58 PM
I could lend you my copy to read but I gave it to a neighbor to read, and he may have passed it along already.

JR

I've put up links to all sorts of things you've never bothered to read.  I'll return the favor & say don't bother.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on March 30, 2020, 05:38:18 PM
No Easter 2020. Health care professionals/infrastructure need(s) this break. Waiting on some other governors to fall in line. Trump's butt kisser, Birx, has now admitted publicly that the best we'll probably do in 200,000 deaths if "handled perfectly". Someone in the COVID-19 thread posted a link showing the US is the country best prepared for a pandemic. I would venture to say we are proudly proving that study wrong. If you happen to live in a state where your governor isn't that smart, contact them and voice your concerns. I predict social distancing will last through mid-late May, given the projected completion dates of field hospitals around the country. The earlier we stop the spread, the earlier we can get on with our lives. Let's get it together. I'd like to get back to normal life. I'm sure others feel the same.  #coronavirushoax
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 30, 2020, 05:56:11 PM
I've put up links to all sorts of things you've never bothered to read.  I'll return the favor & say don't bother.
That's fair... I don't think you would appreciate it anyhow...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on March 30, 2020, 07:31:47 PM
That's fair... I don't think you would appreciate it anyhow...

JR
I've read some of his stuff before--wasn't that impressed.  And I do read a fair bit of conservative-leaning stuff fairly regularly (I don't consume it the way I once did though.)  The Michael Lewis article--I'm sure you're capable of seeing past any bias there might be (I don't consider Lewis all that liberal a writer anyway)--it's an eye-opening read, even if a bit dated by now.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 30, 2020, 09:00:35 PM
I forget if it was in this thread but another data point about the problems with too large to be effective government bureaucracies, it was mentioned in today's press conference that a small OH company had invented a device to disinfect M95 masks so they could be reused up to 20 times... Of course this is not ideal but we desperately need PPE for health care workers.

Approval for that decontamination device was stalled unapproved by the FDA hierarchy... A phone call from the governor of OH to POTUS got this approval shaken loose.

Common sense is not that common within large bureaucracies.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on March 31, 2020, 01:22:26 AM
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The earlier we stop the spread, the earlier we can get on with our lives. Let's get it together.

Well, stopping it effectively means having a vaccine. That's at least 12 months, if not more, down the road.  But it is important to gain time to test existing medication in the hope that they help reduce infections or/and letality.

Governments are worried about the economic loss when shutting things down. Well, dragging it out indefinitely until it's too late and then suddenly being forced to shut things down might even be worse, I think. All country's economies will take a hit anyway -- whether locked down or not -- also because supply chains are interrupted.

But maybe I just don't understand economics in the first place ;)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 31, 2020, 11:10:29 AM
Well, stopping it effectively means having a vaccine. That's at least 12 months, if not more, down the road. 
J&J reportedly identified a vaccine candidate for COVID19 but still need efficacy and human safety testing. They are hoping for wider trials as soon as early 2021... FDA is apparently fast tracking these programs (more than just J&J in this race to market with vaccines). 
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But it is important to gain time to test existing medication in the hope that they help reduce infections or/and letality.
Indeed multiple clinical trials and mass government purchases of those anti-malarial drugs, causing shortages for the existing users  (like Rheumatoid Arthritis, etc). 
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Governments are worried about the economic loss when shutting things down.
Hard part is putting humpty back together after complete shut downs. You can't just flip the switch on again, it takes time and effort to get supply chains working effectively. The longer they are shut down, the harder to restart.
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Well, dragging it out indefinitely until it's too late and then suddenly being forced to shut things down might even be worse, I think. All country's economies will take a hit anyway -- whether locked down or not -- also because supply chains are interrupted.
We were experiencing a soft global economy before this sh__ storm struck. There will be mostly losers, but cheap oil will help oil consuming nations, until OPEC stops this leaning out the window contest (trying to crush US frackers). The current oil price is not sustainable for anybody including the Saudis and Russia, but small companies in the US oil patch have a lot of debt and some will go belly up from the combination of soft demand and OPEC price pressure. I expect some (many?) will get purchased by larger companies and this production capacity will rise from ashes after this OPEC squeeze ends. This makes me question the wisdom of this OPEC policy long term, while they can cause plenty of short term pain.  The US has talked about filling the oil reserve with this cheap oil, but they are already spending helicopter money, so may blink about spending even more.   (There is already some talk about yet another stimulus bill, they love to spend OPM in the swamp.)
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But maybe I just don't understand economics in the first place ;)
Economics is not a hard science, that is why electronics is much more satisfying.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on March 31, 2020, 01:53:39 PM
Well, markets are flooded with printed money in many forms (helicopter, corporate tax rebates, private tax payment delays, household helicopter money, state bonds... you name it, it's all being discussed). Difference to Lehman crisis is that this time money will be not exclusively for banks but also for companies and people.

What we'll see is inflation finally kicking in -- I'd assume harder than most central banks have agreed is desirable (i.e., probably higher than the holy grail of 2%), which can be bad or good, depending on the viewpoint.
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Meanwhile, Europe has a hard time keeping their gig together. And I read that northern EU countries rejected the idea of corona bonds (asked for by hard-hit Spain the other day).

China seems eager to slowly fill a void that especially American inernational politics has allowed to appear due to bias to concentrate on itself. Again this can be good or bad.

And as for Japan, they would have to take a triple hit : already slowing down world economy, postponement of Olympics, and then the massive drop in domestic household spending due to the VAT hike from 8 to 10 percent late last year.
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Apart from that, there are more and more private people in Japan who simply do not understand why Tokyo and Osaka are still not under wider lockdown due to health emergency. So far it is all 'requests' only, which works to some extant here. But schools are still scheduled to restart in a few days. Exciting days ahead... ...

Yeah, Japanese people are generally more vigilant (not fearful !) than elsewhere in the world, and they are often described as obedient, but again it's rather vigilance. There are many voices saying, "Please shut it all down now, what are you waiting for?" -- Mind you, Japan's population has more than 20% of people aged 65+, so it's set for getting really ugly very quickly. But then again, it all depends on the viewpoint, doesn't it...   :-\ :'(
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 31, 2020, 02:21:29 PM
Well, markets are flooded with printed money in many forms (helicopter, corporate tax rebates, private tax payment delays, household helicopter money, state bonds... you name it, it's all being discussed). Difference to Lehman crisis is that this time money will be not exclusively for banks but also for companies and people.
Lehman was a credit crisis that IMO we never fully recovered from.  Free money is always politically popular with low information voters, but there is no such thing as free money.
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What we'll see is inflation finally kicking in -- I'd assume harder than most central banks have agreed is desirable (i.e., probably higher than the holy grail of 2%), which can be bad or good, depending on the viewpoint.
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inflation has been long predicted and still missing... there are still deflationary forces that must be avoided. Many people hope for some inflation... $20 oil is not going to do that.
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Meanwhile, Europe has a hard time keeping their gig together. And I read that northern EU countries rejected the idea of corona bonds (asked for by hard-hit Spain the other day).
The whole premise was free movement/trade between open borders and a central government in Brussels to take care of the hard stuff.... So far it looks like nations are back to restricting travel across their borders and looking out for themselves. Of course I cannot predict the future, this does not look like a win for EU experiment from where I sit.
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China seems eager to slowly fill a void that especially American inernational politics has allowed to appear due to bias to concentrate on itself. Again this can be good or bad.
China is trying to polish the turd they dropped on the world... Every nation is working in their own self interest including China. After the dust settles they will have some serious splainin to do. For now the world is busy dealing with a deadly pandemic. 
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And as for Japan, they would have to take a triple hit : already slowing down world economy, postponement of Olympics, and then the massive drop in domestic household spending due to the VAT hike from 8 to 10 percent late last year.
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Apart from that, there are more and more private people in Japan who simply do not understand why Tokyo and Osaka are still not under wider lockdown due to health emergency. So far it is all 'requests' only, which works to some extant here. But schools are still scheduled to restart in a few days. Exciting days ahead... ...
there are cultural differences that inform every government's specific response. I am not smart enough to speculate about Japan's. I have heard criticism of the government's response to 2011 earthquake/tsunami and Fukushima meltdown. Not sure what if anything there was to be learned from that. 
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Yeah, Japanese people are generally more vigilant (not fearful !) than elsewhere in the world, and they are often described as obedient, but again it's rather vigilance. There are many voices saying, "Please shut it all down now, what are you waiting for?" -- Mind you, Japan's population has more than 20% of people aged 65+, so it's set for getting really ugly very quickly. But then again, it all depends on the viewpoint, doesn't it...   :-\ :'(
Good luck, seriously... The threat to an aged demographic is pretty apparent, while COVID19 can kill young people too.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on March 31, 2020, 07:12:51 PM
China is trying to polish the turd they dropped on the world...

Since "dropping a turd" is a concious act (for people) what you are implying here is, that China intentionally released the virus. Is that really what you wanted to say?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on March 31, 2020, 07:58:14 PM
Since "dropping a turd" is a concious act (for people) what you are implying here is, that China intentionally released the virus. Is that really what you wanted to say?
Please STOP trying to twist my words...  >:(

To be clear, since apparently you desire clarification  ::) In my judgement the Chinese government grossly mishandled the coronavirus crisis... If they were honest with the rest of the world about the human to human transmission when they first learned about it, they could have prevented the loss of many thousands (millions?) of lives around the world.   Are you still confused about what I meant?

JR

PS: I do not consciously "intend" to drop turds, they pretty much inform me when they are ready to leave the area. Please keep your sad conspiracy theories to yourself.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on March 31, 2020, 10:55:44 PM
In my judgement the Chinese government grossly mishandled the coronavirus crisis... If they were honest with the rest of the world about the human to human transmission when they first learned about it, they could have prevented the loss of many thousands (millions?) of lives around the world.

We have a president that was publicly calling the coronavirus a hoax when this information was available. Fact, not a judgement. It would appear we "one-upped" the Chinese government as far as gross mishandling goes... and Republican governors are still being asses. Wyoming governor said stay-at-home order was unnecessary and the state public health director came up behind him immediately thereafter at the same lectern and stated that the state would run out of PPE supplies in a matter of weeks IF the stay-at-home order was enacted. America is going to be best at something, that's for sure. You can't make this stuff up.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on March 31, 2020, 11:43:45 PM
Pelosi delayed the $2.2T for her personal goals!
but that not idot_ism if u r Trump hater  ;D ;D ;D

dirty assTrump haters can take a hike  8)

[there fixed it for you...  JR ]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on March 31, 2020, 11:47:07 PM
Because I can't help myself, I was watching Tipping Point with Liz Wheeler on OAN. She was complaining that Planned Parenthood was deemed an essential business and churches were not... but she said abortion clinics. Abortion services are a SMALL percentage of what this organization does. Stupid argument. Health services vs. large gatherings for adult Santa Claus. The religious right never ceases to flee from logic. Stay home. Give healthcare systems a chance to deal with this issue. Please speak out against stupidity in this time of crisis.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on March 31, 2020, 11:50:45 PM
dirty assTrump haters can take a hike  8)

Not sure I can compete with that comment. I'm impressed.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 01, 2020, 08:42:19 AM
Please STOP trying to twist my words...  >:(

To be clear, since apparently you desire clarification  ::) In my judgement the Chinese government grossly mishandled the coronavirus crisis... If they were honest with the rest of the world about the human to human transmission when they first learned about it, they could have prevented the loss of many thousands (millions?) of lives around the world.   Are you still confused about what I meant?

JR

PS: I do not consciously "intend" to drop turds, they pretty much inform me when they are ready to leave the area. Please keep your sad conspiracy theories to yourself.

No confusion here on my part. iturnknobs pointed out the inconsistencies in your arguments, my advice would be to try for less passive-agressive defensiveness and more self-reflection.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 08:58:57 AM
We have a president that was publicly calling the coronavirus a hoax when this information was available.

Do we? Let's stick with the facts.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 09:18:40 AM
Do we? Let's stick with the facts.
My bad. He called it the Democratic hoax, essentially. He's got a way with words. How's that Democrat HOAX going? Oh, there's more light reading about his "inaccuracies" in the article I posted a link for. You're not helping your argument, or society.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 09:23:46 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/03/17/politics/fact-check-trump-always-knew-pandemic-coronavirus/index.html

Forgot link.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 09:34:48 AM
Pelosi delayed the $2.2T for her personal goals!
but that not idot_ism if u r Trump hater  ;D ;D ;D

dirty assTrump haters can take a hike  8)

When this bill was stalled in the Senate, I contacted both of my Democratic senators in writing. I said that I agreed with the oversight and transparency for the money provided to large corporations. I said that attaching other unrelated provisions to this bill(enviromental and others) was not appropriate in time of crisis and that they needed to cut the sh*t. That is almost verbatim. Some of Pelosi's sticking points were not just for her, but the good of our earth and society. Timing was really bad, though. So you're fighting against that and oversight for funding that future generations will have to pay back?  I contacted my leaders in writing during crisis in the biggest stimulus/rescue package to date in our country. You?Breitbart is missing a troll over in their comments sections.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 01, 2020, 09:41:12 AM
Tokyo prefectural schools today announced to stay closed until after Golden week in May. All other schools on city levels as well as private ones are left to decide for themselves, depending on Cv19 case in areas. But this being Japan, they are very likely to follow suit -- call it group mentality.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 09:44:34 AM
My bad. He called it the Democratic hoax, essentially. He's got a way with words. How's that Democrat HOAX going? Oh, there's more light reading about his "inaccuracies" in the article I posted a link for. You're not helping your argument, or society.

Give me a break. The dems and media are absolutely politicizing the crisis.

You have no idea what i do or don't do for society, don't project.

edited: playing nice
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 11:09:31 AM
We have a president that was publicly calling the coronavirus a hoax when this information was available. Fact, not a judgement.
Another of those false facts....

President Trump likened the opposition response to his handling of COVID19  "Their new hoax", he did not call the coronavirus a hoax... When claiming facts try to get them straight.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/)
Quote
It would appear we "one-upped" the Chinese government as far as gross mishandling goes...
As has been well discussed here, the original roll out of the test kits was mishandled, since then the government and private industry have stepped up their game.
Quote
and Republican governors are still being asses. Wyoming governor said stay-at-home order was unnecessary and the state public health director came up behind him immediately thereafter at the same lectern and stated that the state would run out of PPE supplies in a matter of weeks IF the stay-at-home order was enacted.
I do not follow how state would run out of PPE supplies if stay-at-home order is enacted? It seems that would reduce spread .

Wyoming is not very densely populated and have a fraction the number of cases we do in MS.... (there are now 2 cases in my county). Wyoming has not done as many tests as even we have. Test availability is still limited but getting better with every passing day.

Quote from: wyo dept of health advice
Recommendations
Stay home when sick and avoid contact with other people unless you need medical attention.
Follow advice from CDC on what to do if you think you may be sick.
Follow current public health orders.
Follow common-sense steps such as washing your hands often and well; covering your coughs and sneezes; and cleaning and disinfecting.
Nursing homes, assisted living facilities and other healthcare facilities should closely follow guidelines for infection control and prevention.
Older people and those with health conditions that mean they have a higher chance of getting seriously ill should avoid close-contact situations.
Quote
America is going to be best at something, that's for sure. You can't make this stuff up.
Some people still do....

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 11:10:46 AM
No confusion here on my part. iturnknobs pointed out the inconsistencies in your arguments, my advice would be to try for less passive-agressive defensiveness and more self-reflection.
and my advice remains stop trying to twist my words...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 11:13:27 AM
Pelosi delayed the $2.2T for her personal goals!
but that not idot_ism if u r Trump hater  ;D ;D ;D

dirty assTrump haters can take a hike  8)

Stop already... we will continue to have civil discussions here....  Calling people names just hardens their positions and closes their minds to new thoughts.


JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 11:19:29 AM
Give me a break. The dems and media are absolutely politicizing the crisis. Get over yourself.

You have no idea what i do or don't do for society, don't project.

Oh wow.. Just checked to see what you're all about 'iturnknobs'. Looks like reddit is missing part of their echo chamber.
lets stick to facts....  and not get personal, while that is an early sign of losing any debate.

This thread is to talk "about" politics wrt COVID19, not to spew out politics..... a different thing. We already get enough political speech from media.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 11:22:47 AM
WARNING... several members are flirting dangerously close with breaking the no ad hominem rule...

We are in the silly season of a presidential campaign, and political enmity is high and getting worse.  We are better than that, please behave.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 11:34:45 AM
lets stick to facts....  and not get personal, while that is an early sign of losing any debate.

This thread is to talk "about" politics wrt COVID19, not to spew out politics..... a different thing. We already get enough political speech from media.

JR

My apologies for adding to the mess. It just gets under my skin when people distort the truth to support 'their' agenda.

I hope those that are healthy stay healthy and I also hope that America (and the world in general) gets well!

I'm outta this one! ;)

-jay

edited previous post to remove  the unnecessary
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 01, 2020, 12:53:01 PM
It just gets under my skin when people distort the truth to support 'their' agenda.


Trump really is the poster child for that kind of behaviour. People caught in his reality-distortion-field just don't notice it.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 01:21:47 PM
Trump really is the poster child for that kind of behaviour. People caught in his reality-distortion-field just don't notice it.

If anything resembles a 'reality-distortion-field', that would be the media.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 01:30:12 PM
Trump really is the poster child for that kind of behaviour. People caught in his reality-distortion-field just don't notice it.
opinions vary probably depending on which koolaid fountain you are drinking from...

===
To get back on topic talking "about" COVID politics... In another example of they must be reading my mind, it looks like the daily press conference with COVID team have stopped standing shoulder to shoulder... (it's about time). They probably shouldn't even be in the same room.

A new topic for political analysis is how some unfriendly media outlets are dropping parts or all of the daily COVID team updates.  I understand the political motivation to deny President Trump this daily opportunity to look presidential (or as presidential as he looks).

The unfriendly media want to edit these press conferences and inject their opinions. If I could read minds like you guys, I would suspect that they want to tell viewers what to think... but i can't, so won't.

Good luck with that strategy, President Trump is the first leader to take advantage of social media to speak directly to the public... If the unfriendly media outlets try to block him, they may force viewers to go around them to the source.

I do not deny that President Trump is taking advantage of this opportunity (duh), that doesn't mean that there is not also important information being disseminated by those briefings.  Deny the public access to the briefing at your own risk of losing ratings.


JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 01:35:49 PM
If anything resembles a 'reality-distortion-field', that would be the media.

There are competing viewpoints about this, we all have our own different filters (worldview) that we use to interpret reality.  By now this should not be a secret to anyone that there are two different movies being seen here, but some here still believe that only their worldview is correct.  The best test of our individual filters it to watch history play out and see if we were correct. Unfortunately the mind does not like to admit being wrong, so this is not as simple as it sounds.


JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 01:43:50 PM
There are competing viewpoints about this, we all have our own different filters (worldview) that we use to interpret reality.  By now this should not be a secret to anyone that there are two different movies being seen here, but some here still believe that only their worldview is correct.  The best test of our individual filters it to watch history play out and see if we were correct. Unfortunately the mind does not like to admit being wrong, so this is not as simple as it sounds.


JR

I wholeheartedly agree with you but it doesn't take much to see the media for what it is (yes, this includes Fox). It's not at all difficult to demonstrate the deception that takes place. Some things never change.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 01, 2020, 01:49:32 PM
Facts (and there are video clips of each quote on the website):

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/trumps-statements-about-the-coronavirus/

Here’s what the president said in public remarks, interviews and tweets from Jan. 22 to March 10 -– one day before the World Health Organization declared the global outbreak a pandemic.

Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.” — Trump in a CNBC interview.

Jan. 30: “We think we have it very well under control. We have very little problem in this country at this moment — five — and those people are all recuperating successfully. But we’re working very closely with China and other countries, and we think it’s going to have a very good ending for us … that I can assure you.” — Trump in a speech in Michigan.

Feb. 10: “Now, the virus that we’re talking about having to do — you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April. We’re in great shape though. We have 12 cases — 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now.” — Trump at the White House. (See our item “Will the New Coronavirus ‘Go Away’ in April?“)

Feb. 14: “There’s a theory that, in April, when it gets warm — historically, that has been able to kill the virus.  So we don’t know yet; we’re not sure yet. But that’s around the corner.” — Trump in speaking to National Border Patrol Council members.

Feb. 23: “We have it very much under control in this country.” — Trump in speaking to reporters.

Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!” — Trump in a tweet.

Feb. 26: “So we’re at the low level. As they get better, we take them off the list, so that we’re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we’ve had very good luck.” — Trump at a White House briefing.

Feb. 26: “And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.” — Trump at a press conference.

Feb. 26: “I think every aspect of our society should be prepared. I don’t think it’s going to come to that, especially with the fact that we’re going down, not up. We’re going very substantially down, not up.” — Trump at a press conference, when asked if “U.S. schools should be preparing for a coronavirus spreading.”

Feb. 27: “It’s going to disappear. One day — it’s like a miracle — it will disappear.” — Trump at a White House meeting with African American leaders.

Feb. 29: “And I’ve gotten to know these professionals. They’re incredible. And everything is under control. I mean, they’re very, very cool. They’ve done it, and they’ve done it well. Everything is really under control.” — Trump in a speech at the CPAC conference outside Washington, D.C.

March 4: “[W]e have a very small number of people in this country [infected]. We have a big country. The biggest impact we had was when we took the 40-plus people [from a cruise ship]. … We brought them back. We immediately quarantined them. But you add that to the numbers. But if you don’t add that to the numbers, we’re talking about very small numbers in the United States.” — Trump at a White House meeting with airline CEOs.

March 4: “Well, I think the 3.4% is really a false number.” — Trump in an interview on Fox News, referring to the percentage of diagnosed COVID-19 patients worldwide who had died, as reported by the World Health Organization. (See our item “Trump and the Coronavirus Death Rate.”)

March 7: “No, I’m not concerned at all. No, we’ve done a great job with it.” — Trump, when asked by reporters if he was concerned about the arrival of the coronavirus in the Washington, D.C., area.

March 9: “So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year. Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!” — Trump in a tweet.

March 10: “And we’re prepared, and we’re doing a great job with it. And it will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.” — Trump after meeting with Republican senators.

A day later, on March 11, the WHO declared the global outbreak a pandemic.


Gallup Poll 3/24:

Trump's response to the novel coronavirus pandemic may be behind his higher overall approval rating. Americans give the president generally positive reviews for his handling of the situation, with 60% approving and 38% disapproving.

We have got the leader we deserve.  Sad, sad, sad.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 02:47:35 PM
I perceive a subtle shift in the health care advice messaging, where it previously was trying to project optimism, there is a more serious tone now warning about trouble ahead. I still can't read minds but this may be an attempt to scare the public into better behavior following the health advice about social distancing. 

One glaring example of kids behaving badly a group of UT students chartered a plane to Mexico for spring break and so far 28 of 70 have already tested positive for COVID19.... Not showing very good judgement and selfish ignoring the harm they can bring upon others.

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: dmp on April 01, 2020, 03:01:00 PM
Is there truth to the reports that Trump is denying help to states and Governors that he doesn't like (or do not treat him well).
Including denying medical equipment to states on his bad list?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 01, 2020, 03:15:14 PM
I perceive a subtle shift in the health care advice messaging, where it previously was trying to project optimism, there is a more serious tone now warning about trouble ahead.
JR
It's not subtle. The  s h i t  has hit the fan and there's no getting around it, and his medical and other advisors have told him he'd better get real or he'll be known as the president who destroyed the country. Not that he cares about the country, only himself.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 03:27:01 PM
Is there truth to the reports that Trump is denying help to states and Governors that he doesn't like (or do not treat him well).
Including denying medical equipment to states on his bad list?
Unlikely but I suspect some states want more than is reasonable, sooner than reasonable...

Gov Cuomo (NY) and Gov Newsom (CA) have both made positive comments about their dealings with President Trump, neither one of those two are considered friends of the Trump administration.

Gov Whitmer  of MI started off with a rather unfriendly approach to requesting federal aid and during days of back and forth verbal sparring President Trump threatened to withhold aid in response to her attitude, but he ultimately didn't. He approved the federal aid request for MI on Saturday. I doubt she is best buddies with him now, but they are working together for the common good.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 03:28:09 PM
It's not subtle. The  s h i t  has hit the fan and there's no getting around it, and his medical and other advisors have told him he'd better get real or he'll be known as the president who destroyed the country. Not that he cares about the country, only himself.
Your mind reading does not agree with mine... we are probably both wrong... mind reading is difficult.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 01, 2020, 03:35:33 PM
Is there truth to the reports that Trump is denying help to states and Governors that he doesn't like (or do not treat him well).
Including denying medical equipment to states on his bad list?

No, it's just his same blowhard rhetoric.

WASHINGTON – President Donald Trump said Friday he has asked Vice President Mike Pence not to call governors he says have not been "appreciative" enough of his efforts on coronavirus – a group of critics that included a governor he referred to only by gender,

"Don't call the woman in Michigan," Trump said at a press conference while discussing Pence's work as head of the White House Coronavirus Task Force.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/03/27/coronavirus-donald-trump-tells-pence-not-call-michigan-governor/2931251001/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 01, 2020, 03:40:14 PM
Your mind reading does not agree with mine... we are probably both wrong... mind reading is difficult.

JR

True - we (and lots of others) are just trying to fit the data we get into a cohesive explanation that make sense to us, and might allow us to make some sort of tentative plan for the future.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: dmp on April 01, 2020, 04:22:11 PM
Unlikely but I suspect some states want more than is reasonable, sooner than reasonable...

A Washington Post story reported Florida got several times what asked for while other states got a small fraction. And Trump has said States should try to buy supplies themselves, then the Federal Gov has outbid the states.  It seems like there is some truth to the story.  But Trump seems to know that believing the news reporting is bad for his reign, hence the 'fake news' declarations.



Quote
Gov Cuomo (NY) and Gov Newsom (CA) have both made positive comments about their dealings with President Trump, neither one of those two are considered friends of the Trump administration.


So the bully pulpit is working then? Or are those supposed to be taken as genuine?  Trump said publicly unless Governors treat him nice he won't take the phone call.

Quote
Gov Whitmer  of MI started off with a rather unfriendly approach to requesting federal aid and during days of back and forth verbal sparring President Trump threatened to withhold aid in response to her attitude, but he ultimately didn't. He approved the federal aid request for MI on Saturday. I doubt she is best buddies with him now, but they are working together for the common good.

JR

In what way was she 'unfriendly'? I saw Trump's public attacks on her.  Might not be the best idea idea for a key swing state to let Americans die while playing politics.

If Trump withholds medical supplies from Americans in need, he should be put in jail. It's hard to believe he could threaten that and still have the support of any American.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 05:18:56 PM
I do not follow how state would run out of PPE supplies if stay-at-home order is enacted? It seems that would reduce spread .

Apologies for paraphrasing.
*even if
Hence the capital IF.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 05:28:50 PM
True - we (and lots of others) are just trying to fit the data we get into a cohesive explanation that make sense to us, and might allow us to make some sort of tentative plan for the future.

Agreed. Not sure why others discredit all those quotes made available directly by the president(must be fake news ;)).Odd how upset people get at others when their chosen leader makes such mishaps. Redirect your frustration to the real issue at hand.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 06:15:21 PM
Another of those false facts....

President Trump likened the opposition response to his handling of COVID19  "Their new hoax", he did not call the coronavirus a hoax... When claiming facts try to get them straight.


Wouldn't this be downplaying the severity of the situation WHILE sowing division amongst our society? Seems twice as bad to me when put in context.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 01, 2020, 06:31:44 PM
Wouldn't this be downplaying the severity of the situation WHILE sowing division amongst our society? Seems twice as bad to me when put in context.

even though i hate the way CNN putting the news, they are always extremely sited, and
they are master of showing one side of the story in a fashionable way. in which they keep them paying hundreds of million$  in lawsuit settlements, i have no idea where they are getting that much settlement money from! hope u r not donating  ;)
FOX is as bad as CNN... may be even worst, i cant stand their TV hosts! but i check boths sides on every single news headline!

i agree, its twice as bad for the country!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 01, 2020, 06:51:53 PM
If anything resembles a 'reality-distortion-field', that would be the media.
+1
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 07:55:26 PM
Wouldn't this be downplaying the severity of the situation WHILE sowing division amongst our society? Seems twice as bad to me when put in context.
OK almost on topic, there has been a lot of criticism about underestimating the severity of the COVID19 outbreak.  I am probably starting to sound like a broken record but.....

China neglected to share with the outside world that their health workers were getting sick from patients, but it is even worse than that. China also understated the severity of the infection and extent of the infection spread.

Even after learning about the human to human transmission the models for projecting future spread were built on faulty (understated) data coming from China that led many western nations to underestimate the potential severity of this viral outbreak.

Now after seeing accurate data from several western countries, in perfect hindsight, we appreciate that we could have responded more strongly.  In an exponential growth equation the variables matter, a bunch. Bad data causes bad projections.

JR

PS: I appreciate that this looks like me blaming China for this, but IMO they really are responsible for a lot of the bad news.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 01, 2020, 08:01:00 PM
OK almost on topic, there has been a lot of criticism about underestimating the severity of the COVID19 outbreak.  I am probably starting to sound like a broken record but.....

China neglected to share with the outside world that their health workers were getting sick from patients, but it is even worse than that. China also understated the severity of the infection and extent of the infection spread.

Even after learning about the human to human transmission the models for projecting future spread were built on faulty (understated) data coming from China that led many western nations to underestimate the potential severity of this viral outbreak.

Now after seeing accurate data from several western countries, in perfect hindsight, we appreciate that we could have responded more strongly.  In an exponential growth equation the variables matter, a bunch. Bad data causes bad projections.

JR

PS: I appreciate that this looks like me blaming China for this, but IMO they really are responsible for a lot of the bad news.

anyone who is not able to understand this and still arguing, must be an...   :-X
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 01, 2020, 08:28:40 PM
McCarthy is on the loose again...

https://news.yahoo.com/suspected-sars-virus-and-flu-found-in-luggage-fbi-report-describes-chinas-biosecurity-risk-144526820.html
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 08:31:50 PM
anyone who is not able to understand this and still arguing, must be an...   :-X

Besides the obligatory "you're a racist/xenophobe" there really is no argument.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 01, 2020, 08:39:06 PM
China also understated the severity of the infection and extent of the infection spread.


According to this news article they did:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 01, 2020, 09:13:11 PM
Besides the obligatory "you're a racist/xenophobe" there really is no argument.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D u r more than funny  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 09:14:09 PM
Besides the obligatory "you're a racist/xenophobe" there really is no argument.
you talking to me?

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 09:19:58 PM
For something new to chew on... what do we think about contact tracing... South Korea (about the size of Indiana)  that is held up as model of how to handle COVID19, they use extensive contact tracing to track and control exposure from infected individuals.

This is very useful to slow and/or prevent spread, but is not consistent with our expected privacy protections. 

I think there is a fair argument that infected individual create a risk to public health so tracking them could save lives.

Any thoughts?

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 01, 2020, 09:26:51 PM
you talking to me?

JR

I'm agreeing with you (re: China)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 09:34:39 PM
I'm agreeing with you (re: China)
Hard to tell...  Thanx

I am getting so thin skinned from all this daily political drama that I felt a lady bug bite my arm the other day while working out in the yard. I didn't even know that they could bite... Since they eat aphids, they must be able to bite...  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 01, 2020, 09:54:24 PM
For something new to chew on... what do we think about contact tracing... South Korea (about the size of Indiana)  that is held up as model of how to handle COVID19, they use extensive contact tracing to track and control exposure from infected individuals.

This is very useful to slow and/or prevent spread, but is not consistent with our expected privacy protections. 

I think there is a fair argument that infected individual create a risk to public health so tracking them could save lives.

Any thoughts?

JR

I have no problem with the privacy aspect, but that horse is way out of the barn in locations where there are already more than a few cases. There aren't enough personnel to do the job. It would be helpful to do when the first new positive cases in a given political area (town, county) are encountered, but with the current several day lag in test results even that would be difficult. Maybe when the new 15 minute PCR test is widely available this would make sense, but in general I think it's way too late to attempt.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 11:02:29 PM

China neglected to share with the outside world that their health workers were getting sick from patients, but it is even worse than that. China also understated the severity of the infection and extent of the infection spread.

Even after learning about the human to human transmission the models for projecting future spread were built on faulty (understated) data coming from China that led many western nations to underestimate the potential severity of this viral outbreak.

So does this imply/assume that the death/instance count is falsified from China? Please cite documents.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 01, 2020, 11:10:48 PM
So does this imply/assume that the death/instance count is falsified from China? Please cite documents.
Nice try...

If they do not release accurate data, where would I come up with documents?

How about the fact they denied letting western health inspectors into Wuhan, and whistle blower health workers from there tend to disappear.

The fact that the virus behaves much more virulently than their early data suggests is a strong hint.

But no I do not have proof, that they withheld proof (can't prove that negative), other than the disappearing whistle blowers which imo is suggestive of shenanigans.

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 01, 2020, 11:41:43 PM
For something new to chew on... what do we think about contact tracing...   


I think there is a fair argument that infected individual create a risk to public health so tracking them could save lives.

Any thoughts?

JR

Sorry to chop up your comment. Our countries had case #1 within 24 hours of each other, and they're "done" with it if news reports are accurate. Sounds like a privacy issue we're not willing to deal with, albeit effective.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 02, 2020, 01:53:59 AM
*they're(being South Korea)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 02, 2020, 10:15:16 AM
So does this imply/assume that the death/instance count is falsified from China? Please cite documents.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 02, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/china-concealed-extent-of-virus-outbreak-u-s-intelligence-says
Thank you... this is why the WHO and numerous western countries underestimated the severity of this.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 02, 2020, 02:09:12 PM
Thank you... this is why the WHO and numerous western countries underestimated the severity of this.

JR

There's a certain edge of scapegoating to this "blame China" approach.  There is no doubt that very preventable errors were made  by the US and others in their approach to COVID--and that's without the issues with China's virus reporting. 
Yeah, China almost certainly understated the severity of the situation--weren't people saying that as far back as January?  It's what you expect from China.   Somehow, in spite of the bad information from China, there were plenty of smart and talented scientists and doctors who had a very good idea of how to approach all this, and they were roundly ignored by the Trump administration. 

There's plenty of blame to go around, but for the US govt.  to try to whitewash its own very grave & obvious shortcomings by demonizing China is pretty weak stuff.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 02, 2020, 02:27:59 PM
... Somehow, in spite of the bad information from China, there were plenty of smart and talented scientists and doctors who had a very good idea of how to approach all this, and they were roundly ignored by the Trump administration. 

There's plenty of blame to go around, but for the US govt.  to try to whitewash its own very grave & obvious shortcomings by demonizing China is pretty weak stuff.
"We were warned in 2015, when Ezra Klein of Vox, after speaking with Bill Gates about his algorithmic model for how a new strain of flu could spread rapidly in today’s globalized world, wrote that “a pandemic disease is the most predictable catastrophe in the history of the human race, if only because it has happened to the human race so many, many times before.” If there was anything humanity could be certain that it needed to prepare for to prevent the deaths of a lot of people in little time, it was this...

The systemic failure stems in part from the fact that in recent decades successive administrations have not treated pandemic preparedness with the degree of seriousness they reserved for addressing other top security threats...

When the National Commission on the COVID-19 response materializes, it will differ from the 9/11 Commission in that it will conclude that “the system was blinking red” not just in the inner sanctum of the U.S. intelligence community but out in the open, as well. For years. Within government and outside government. And that, despite all that, the U.S. government was not sufficiently prepared when the boogeyman, in this case the virus SARS-CoV-2, finally came calling."


https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/pandemic-coronavirus-united-states-trump-cdc/608215/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 02, 2020, 02:37:33 PM
Scape-goating is the flip-side of fear.

Fear of something, anything -- and since this is a politics thread, probably also the fear of loosing an election.

---------
Underestimated at first, I guess so. Then the thought it might be overestimated by WHO, since they did a less than stellar job on the previous one.

Underestimated probably also by China. I don't believe the Chinese are that different as people from anybody else. Also, we cannot really expect that they should have known much more back then, than many more almost worldwide still don't know even by now.
--------
Yes, I also recalled Bill Gate's words the other day who has warned of something like this for a long time.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 02, 2020, 03:14:31 PM
PS: I appreciate that this looks like me blaming China for this, but IMO they really are responsible for a lot of the bad news.
Trump Jr. agrees with you John!  8)
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/661762658579513356/694941054406754344/k0rgn4zfc6q41.png?width=379&height=586)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 02, 2020, 06:20:27 PM
Scape-goating is the flip-side of fear.

Fear of something, anything -- and since this is a politics thread, probably also the fear of loosing an election.
that is actually on topic, both sides appear interested in influencing the election any way they can.
Quote
---------
Underestimated at first, I guess so. Then the thought it might be overestimated by WHO, since they did a less than stellar job on the previous one.

Underestimated probably also by China. I don't believe the Chinese are that different as people from anybody else. Also, we cannot really expect that they should have known much more back then, than many more almost worldwide still don't know even by now.
The Chinese people are not very different, but the communist government is quite different in significant ways from western governments, like denying access to international health inspectors and not honestly sharing very important early infection data. Chinese doctors and local political leaders wanted to warn the world. The Chinese government shut them down. 

It is an open secret that China fudges economic data but this misinformation is deadly serious (literally).
Quote

--------
Yes, I also recalled Bill Gate's words the other day who has warned of something like this for a long time.
There are always sky is falling types, and eventually some of them can be right by chance. Bill's charity is involved in multiple world health missions so he is better informed about global health than most.

Coincidentally Bill Gates is a target of conspiracy theories with people accusing him of being jointly responsible for creating and unleashing this pandemic... as some kind of globalist over-population remedy. Likely people connecting dots that do not exist (I hope). I do not buy what they are selling, but some people do.

====

Of course our government's handling of this pandemic is fair game for inspection after the fact, but maybe we can wait until we are a little further down the road before beginning the formal inquisition (the impeachment crowd is itching to dig into this). There will be several government agencies needing to answer for various missteps.

I understand the urgency if your world view is that this administration is totally incompetent and continues driving us into the ditch possibly killing millions. Alternately if you think the administration is doing as good as they possibly can, then all the attacks seem counter productive and even harmful to public health.  The reality is somewhere between those two extremes. Prudent to avoid either extreme in these hyper-partisan times (In my opinion they are now doing a fair job, but had a less than stellar start).

 Pointing out China's culpability in this may look like typical whataboutism, but the exponential growth of this pandemic makes errors at the beginning that caused delays in taking action, more significant down the road.

Of course opinions vary.

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 02, 2020, 06:54:10 PM

 Pointing out China's culpability in this may look like typical whataboutism, but the exponential growth of this pandemic makes errors at the beginning that caused delays in taking action, more significant down the road.

JR
 

Speaking of errors at the beginning, here's one for you:

A Trump adviser working with White House officials on messaging for the pandemic response said Trump "took a gamble" that warmer weather would cause the virus to dissipate, siding with aides who were pushing back on the dire warnings coming from doctors on the coronavirus task force.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/politics/white-house-measures-make-a-difference/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/politics/white-house-measures-make-a-difference/index.html)

I probably said here that I suspected that was Trump's gambit, and one of the reasons he didn't push to get testing out faster. 

Hunches over science.  It was an early mistake, and boy is it costing us now. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 02, 2020, 07:20:31 PM
I am getting so thin skinned from all this daily political drama that I felt a lady bug bite my arm the other day while working out in the yard. I didn't even know that they could bite... Since they eat aphids, they must be able to bite...  ::)

Ladybugs don't eat or bite when they look like a ladybug (their adult form). The larvae of some species otoh eat large quantities of aphids. There are, however also plant eating species and these eat while in adult form.

If it bit you, it's not a typical coccinellid. It could be a spider mimicking a ladybug. I'm not sure these exist in the USA. The species I know of are of Asian origine.

It seems the drama in the media is reversing over here. The first critical noises are starting to emanate from the media.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 03, 2020, 12:11:44 AM
Here's one of those CDC updates   linked from that article......

JR

You're trying really hard to justify your faith in Trump.   It gets harder every day, doesn't it? 
I didn't have to go past Trump's own words(and actions) and the words of an advisor to Trump.  Maybe it's time to stop all your contortions of rationalization and admit that trumped has botched this in a big way.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 03, 2020, 02:41:33 AM
Ladybugs don't eat or bite when they look like a ladybug (their adult form). The larvae of some species otoh eat large quantities of aphids. There are, however also plant eating species and these eat while in adult form.

If it bit you, it's not a typical coccinellid. It could be a spider mimicking a ladybug. I'm not sure these exist in the USA. The species I know of are of Asian origine.

It seems the drama in the media is reversing over here. The first critical noises are starting to emanate from the media.

where r u getting all this info from  :o

i prefer US expert info  ;D
https://www.terminix.com/pest-control/lady-bugs/bites/

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 03, 2020, 11:19:39 AM
i think people start to realize how idiot democrats are  8)

Who does this gentleman provide legal counsel to? Scary. I suppose the removal of this tweet from social media is a violation of the 1st amendment... As I said before, I can only hope that this crisis brings about major positive change. It is unfortunate that pain is the only really effective catalyst for the human race to change. What do all the remaining states to declare a stay-at-home order have in common? One guess. Opinions are one thing and facts are another.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 03, 2020, 11:34:32 AM
Alabama
Gov. Kay Ivey said she did not plan to issue a statewide order, saying that she wanted to balance the health of the state's residents with the health of the economy. "Y’all, we are not California, we’re not New York, we aren’t even Louisiana," she said on a conference call with reporters, according to AL.com. Birmingham, the largest city in the state, has issued a shelter-in-place order for its residents.

Alabama has a higher infection rate per capita than California. :-\




Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 03, 2020, 11:40:57 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-governor-coronavirus-asymptomatic.amp

I suppose China's lack of transparency is the reason why our country has more than double the infection numbers than any other country.

Mike Pence publicly told people to stay away from churches with more than 10 people.... genius, I tell you. I wonder how he came up with that. WHY does he even have to say that?

Facts force this to be political.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 03, 2020, 12:22:58 PM
You're trying really hard to justify your faith in Trump.   It gets harder every day, doesn't it? 
I didn't have to go past Trump's own words(and actions) and the words of an advisor to Trump.  Maybe it's time to stop all your contortions of rationalization and admit that trumped has botched this in a big way.
Just like you admitted that the impeachment drama was partisan BS...?  ::)

JR

PS: I am weary of his bloviating (but I didn't care for that from day 1). I appreciate the visible results, and look forward to more testing...  Still waiting for thoughtful discussion about contact tracing that may raise privacy issues.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 03, 2020, 12:24:58 PM
where r u getting all this info from  :o

i prefer US expert info  ;D
https://www.terminix.com/pest-control/lady-bugs/bites/
Thanks but I saw the f'r on my arm after I felt the bite.... rare but I have first hand experience that it happened at least this once.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 03, 2020, 01:37:56 PM
Here's an interesting clip of Dr Fauci in January.. Nothing to see here... Move along...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-hOSZ3p_wm/?utm_source=ig_embed
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 03, 2020, 02:08:20 PM
Still waiting for thoughtful discussion about contact tracing that may raise privacy issues.

Not specific to contact tracing, but pertinent. I suppose if an infected person is detained, he is under no legal bounds to disclose his contacts, and he can just stew in detention.

d) Apprehension and examination of persons reasonably believed to be infected

(1) Regulations prescribed under this section may provide for the apprehension and examination of any individual reasonably believed to be infected with a communicable disease in a qualifying stage and (A) to be moving or about to move from a State to another State; or (B) to be a probable source of infection to individuals who, while infected with such disease in a qualifying stage, will be moving from a State to another State. Such regulations may provide that if upon examination any such individual is found to be infected, he may be detained for such time and in such manner as may be reasonably necessary. For purposes of this subsection, the term "State" includes, in addition to the several States, only the District of Columbia.

(2) For purposes of this subsection, the term "qualifying stage", with respect to a communicable disease, means that such disease—

(A) is in a communicable stage; or

(B) is in a precommunicable stage, if the disease would be likely to cause a public health emergency if transmitted to other individuals.


https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCODE-2018-title42/html/USCODE-2018-title42-chap6A-subchapII-partG-sec264.htm
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 03, 2020, 05:07:23 PM
I don't know if this is political, but they seem to be shifting away from the advice for the public "not" wear masks. I wonder how much of this advice has to do with availability? When masks were scarcer then hen's teeth they didn't want the public scarfing them all up, denying health professionals PPE, or in a panic because they can't get them but were told to wear them. 

Yesterday when I did my weekly grocery run, roughly half the geezers I saw shopping were wearing masks (some strange ones).  These days I'm a little embarrassed to wear my normal dust mask even while cutting my lawn.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 03, 2020, 05:16:56 PM
Here's an interesting clip of Dr Fauci in January.. Nothing to see here... Move along...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-hOSZ3p_wm/?utm_source=ig_embed

Feb 16th CBS interview

DR. FAUCI: Well, a pandemic is when you have multiple countries throughout the world that have what's called sustained transmission from person to person to person, multiple generations. Right now, there are 24 countries in which there were over five hundred cases. Several of them are starting to get to the second and third transmission. So technically speaking, the WHO wouldn't be calling this a global pandemic, but it certainly is on the verge of that happening reasonably soon unless containment is more successful than it is right now.

Last night:

Fauci on Anderson Cooper:

"I don't understand why a nationwide stay-at-home order is not in place."

This is the man advising Trump. Logic would explain where the problem lies.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 03, 2020, 06:36:14 PM

ie  wyoming:  they dont have state wide stay at home orders, but they have stay at home when possible recommendation statewide , thats from early days...
whole state population is about 1/2 milion and ur nearest neighbour is no closer than 4-5 miles!
their city center is smaller than my friends backyard!  they have different rules for the city center etc!
so our loved Anderson the ass is not telling the whole story as usual, nor the other asses from FOX!

so sad!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 03, 2020, 06:57:46 PM
Just like you admitted that the impeachment drama was partisan BS...?  ::)

JR

What is on display with Trump's so-called "leadership" in this crisis shows why he was unfit to be president in the first place (yes, he got elected, but that doesn't mean he's fit to serve).  I'll admit that there was partisan BS at work in that the Republican senators refused to throw him out on his ear when he so richly deserved it. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 03, 2020, 07:21:03 PM
i would recommend watching old documentary 11/9 by Michael Moore
Obama is the number one reason we have Trump.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on April 04, 2020, 06:16:20 AM
Here's an interesting clip of Dr Fauci in January.. Nothing to see here... Move along...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-hOSZ3p_wm/?utm_source=ig_embed
From the instagram commentary...
Quote
This is on 2/2009. That's the year Donald C Alexander Died..look at the bottom of the screen!!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 04, 2020, 11:09:15 AM
Does anyone recall voting for Jared Kushner? The blind are putting the blind, deaf and dumb in charge. Can anyone cite credentials that would qualify this person for his newly found responsibilities? When will the stupidity stop? When will the people see? When enough people die, and I don't know what that number is:

(ABC NEWS)Until Friday morning, the website of the Department of Health and Human Services, which maintains the stockpile, read, "When state, local, tribal, and territorial responders request federal assistance to support their response efforts, the stockpile ensures that the right medicines and supplies get to those who need them most during an emergency."

But midday Friday, hours after Kushner directly contradicted the language on the HHS website, the text was changed without explanation. Retroactively matching what Kushner said, the website no longer says states can rely on the stockpile, but now says it exists to “supplement” them.Until Friday morning, the website of the Department of Health and Human Services, which maintains the stockpile, read, "When state, local, tribal, and territorial responders request federal assistance to support their response efforts, the stockpile ensures that the right medicines and supplies get to those who need them most during an emergency."

But midday Friday, hours after Kushner directly contradicted the language on the HHS website, the text was changed without explanation. Retroactively matching what Kushner said, the website no longer says states can rely on the stockpile, but now says it exists to “supplement” them..

That's the biggest "it's not my fault/responsibility" I've ever seen... with backpedaling. I believe the proper thing to say is: "We're going to do our very best to provide localities with what they need as this pandemic progresses." Not this administration.


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fallout on April 04, 2020, 12:15:41 PM
Quote from: fallout on April 03, 2020, 01:37:56 PM
Here's an interesting clip of Dr Fauci in January.. Nothing to see here... Move along...

https://www.instagram.com/p/B-hOSZ3p_wm/?utm_source=ig_embed
From the instagram commentary...
Quote
This is on 2/2009. That's the year Donald C Alexander Died..look at the bottom of the screen!!

Nice try... Jan 21, 2020 is when Thomas Railsback died and you can also look at the upper left hand corner of the screen to confirm (hint.. you can clearly see 21/20)

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-01-21/gop-congressman-who-backed-nixon-impeachment-dead-at-87
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 04, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
Just some random paragraphs, quotes, etc.  I think they're short enough for fair use.
Shortly after White House senior adviser Jared Kushner said at a Thursday press briefing that the Strategic National Stockpile is not meant for states’ use, language was scrubbed from and altered on government websites to reflect Kushner’s claim.

“The state still has a stockpile and the notion of the federal stockpile was it’s supposed to be our stockpile,” Kushner said at a briefing about the coronavirus pandemic. “It’s not supposed to be states’ stockpiles that they then use.”

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/kushner-stockpile-trump-coronavirus (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/kushner-stockpile-trump-coronavirus)

They were for the states & territories, until they became ours (meaning Trump and his cronies????)

*******
3 million masks ordered by Massachusetts were confiscated in Port of New York, leading to creative alternative
https://www.wcvb.com/article/3-million-masks-ordered-by-massachusetts-were-confiscated-in-port-of-new-york/32021700# (https://www.wcvb.com/article/3-million-masks-ordered-by-massachusetts-were-confiscated-in-port-of-new-york/32021700#)

And this after Trump declares states are on their own to get supplies.  I'm sure the confiscated masks were headed directly to their stockpile. 

********
In September 2018, the Trump administration received detailed plans for a new machine designed to churn out millions of protective respirator masks at high speed during a pandemic.

The plans, submitted to the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) by medical manufacturer O&M Halyard, were the culmination of a venture unveiled almost three years earlier by the Obama administration.

But HHS did not proceed with making the machine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/federal-government-spent-millions-to-ramp-up-mask-readiness-but-that-isnt-helping-now/2020/04/03/d62dda5c-74fa-11ea-a9bd-9f8b593300d0_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/federal-government-spent-millions-to-ramp-up-mask-readiness-but-that-isnt-helping-now/2020/04/03/d62dda5c-74fa-11ea-a9bd-9f8b593300d0_story.html)

It wasn't a terribly expensive project (several million bucks, chump change by fed standards and when one considers the misery it could have spared).  But it was an Obama project, so it was pretty much worthless, right?  Just like that pandemic task force that had to be axed--because, you know, Obama.

*******
And because one should never let a good crisis go to waste: 

Trump says he will fire intelligence watchdog at center of Ukraine allegations that led to impeachment

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-says-he-will-fire-intelligence-watchdog-at-center-of-ukraine-allegations-that-led-to-impeachment/2020/04/03/d0b873d4-761c-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/trump-says-he-will-fire-intelligence-watchdog-at-center-of-ukraine-allegations-that-led-to-impeachment/2020/04/03/d0b873d4-761c-11ea-87da-77a8136c1a6d_story.html)

That will make a handful of IG posts that Trump is leaving vacant--because no one needs to guard the henhouse when Trump is in charge--right?  He's our national savior!!!!!!!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on April 04, 2020, 01:34:11 PM
Nice try... Jan 21, 2020 is when Thomas Railsback died and you can also look at the upper left hand corner of the screen to confirm (hint.. you can clearly see 21/20)

https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-01-21/gop-congressman-who-backed-nixon-impeachment-dead-at-87
Thanks for clarification!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 04, 2020, 02:41:21 PM
“I just don’t want to wear one myself."

The guy is a beautiful, perfect leader. I can only hope that his decision will have a beautiful, perfect outcome.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/im-not-going-to-do-it-trump-refutes-his-own-administrations-advice-on-masks
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 04, 2020, 03:32:43 PM
Does anyone recall voting for Jared Kushner? The blind are putting the blind, deaf and dumb in charge. Can anyone cite credentials that would qualify this person for his newly found responsibilities? When will the stupidity stop? When will the people see? When enough people die, and I don't know what that number is:

+1
sad :(
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 04, 2020, 03:42:03 PM
https://www.instagram.com/p/B-hOSZ3p_wm/?utm_source=ig_embed
re this video :

which news/TV channel is that ?

edit : newsmax tv !



Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 04, 2020, 05:02:38 PM
“I just don’t want to wear one myself."
he has no filters so often says whatever comes to mind....  perhaps not the ideal spokesman for issuing important health advice.
Quote
The guy is a beautiful, perfect leader. I can only hope that his decision will have a beautiful, perfect outcome.
nicely laid between the lines...  ;D 

He seems to be a little lower energy than usual (tired, old? but I couldn't keep up with him), maybe he needs to let others around him talk more. His blowhard nature is showing, but politically it is probably working for him to be in front of the TV audience as much as he can. (Gov Cuomo seems to have recognized the merit of that strategy and is doing the same). 
Quote
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/03/im-not-going-to-do-it-trump-refutes-his-own-administrations-advice-on-masks
Speaking of politics it is perhaps interesting how that link description, differs from the actual headline and story. President Trump DID NOT REFUTE the advice, in fact he reiterated the advice, but shared (in a little too much honesty) that he personally didn't want to wear a mask in his office (I don't either).

Damn him speaking too honestly again...  ::) but agreed the perfect health spokesman should wear the mask to set a good example  ::)... and on that same topic maybe not stand shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of mostly old people on stage.  :o

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 04, 2020, 05:18:49 PM
JR

u r the man  :)

i would vote for u if u run for the office  8)

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 04, 2020, 05:44:36 PM
OMG, CNN keep lying again re medical grade masks...
according to their source from WH bullsh*t as usual,
health officials are worried that people would rush out and buy all n95 masks etc!  bla bla bla bla bla!!!!!

there is no medical grade N95 masks are on sale to public in USA. period!

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 04, 2020, 06:33:24 PM
The first Wyoming case was reported on March 11

Governor Gordon and State Health Officer issued
statewide business closures in response to coronavirus, March 19
statewide closure order for public spaces, March 20

there are more, but no need to list all...

CNN still asking nonsense questions ... oh FOX is not better!

are those two has a  hidden same person, to play games with US public !!!
just doesnt make sense!

law about not releasing your source's ID  for your information needs to be changed to something
tougher!

i can easily say, according to my source JR is actually from space, he is not human, my source saw him
covering his UFO on his backyard with an invisible blanket  and he had a yellow bottle in his hand  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

proof it otherwise!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on April 04, 2020, 08:21:10 PM
are those two has a  hidden same person, to play games with US public !!!
just doesnt make sense!
Well it works for Democrats and Republicans...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 04, 2020, 08:39:34 PM
perhaps not the ideal spokesman for issuing important health advice anything...
FIFY.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on April 04, 2020, 08:46:53 PM
He seems to be a little lower energy than usual (tired, old? but I couldn't keep up with him), maybe he needs to let others around him talk more. His blowhard nature is showing, but politically it is probably working for him to be in front of the TV audience as much as he can. (Gov Cuomo seems to have recognized the merit of that strategy and is doing the same).  Speaking of politics it is perhaps interesting how that link description, differs from the actual headline and story. President Trump DID NOT REFUTE the advice, in fact he reiterated the advice, but shared (in a little too much honesty) that he personally didn't want to wear a mask in his office (I don't either).

How would any decent manager justify spending more an hour plus every day doing these press briefings, which are clearly not "brief"?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 04, 2020, 09:12:32 PM
How would any decent manager justify spending more an hour plus every day doing these press briefings, which are clearly not "brief"?
It takes quite a while to try to convince people you're a silk purse, not a sow's ear.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 05, 2020, 01:45:49 AM
How would any decent manager justify spending more an hour plus every day doing these press briefings, which are clearly not "brief"?
In case I wasn't clear this is just smart politics. The business of politics is getting re-elected.

The classic photo op for incumbent POTUS is to do anything that remotely looks presidential, this is almost too sweet of an opportunity to pass up. Even the opposition media have figured this out (it took them a while) and are now trying to ignore it, if they can.

POTUS is the "chief executive" that means he doesn't do the actual work but sets direction and goals, while making other people do the heavy lifting. VP Pence could easily run the press briefings except for the obvious (lights and TV cameras).

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 05, 2020, 02:20:37 AM
Well it works for Democrats and Republicans...

u have to bend over to either side! pick one... doesnt really make any difference!

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 06, 2020, 09:49:30 AM
https://www.straight.com/news/republican-senate-hopeful-shiva-ayyadurai-calls-for-firing-of-us-pandemic-control-czar-dr

     Right out of The Georgia Straight. Governor: Republican Brian Kemp, who claimed he just got the info stating asymptomatic people could be contagious a couple days ago. For the record, this is the case for THE COMMON COLD.  Yet, jackasses are still elected.
     I probably shouldn't even post links to well written propaganda such as this. Lots of "scientific" information and quoted statistics concerning morbidity rates for other afflictions. I don't recall semi trailers for morgue overflow in New York for any of these other afflictions(there goes that LOGIC thing again). This fool should go back over to India to watch what happens as this pandemic is about to spread through the slums over there. I do not believe in God, but somebody needs to pray for those people.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 06, 2020, 11:22:06 AM
. Governor: Republican Brian Kemp, who claimed he just got the info stating asymptomatic people could be contagious a couple days ago. For the record, this is the case for THE COMMON COLD.  Yet, jackasses are still elected.


Kemp got elected by playing the part of a bass-ackwards hillbilly redneck.  He hammed it up for all the rural & outer suburban right wingers.  They loved it, of course.  It didn't hurt that as Secretary of State he spent years engaging in vote suppression and had the opportunity to put his thumb on the scale of his own gubernatorial election. 

I have no inside knowledge here, but I think part of the delay with Republican governors is their own and their consituents' obeisance to Trump.  He's no genius, but I don't really think Kemp is quite as stupid as he appears (although reopening Georgia's beaches was pretty idiotic).  It's a part that has to be played for the unwashed/brainwashed Republican base--although with the way coronavirus is spreading through the state, he may need to try to be a little more serious.


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 06, 2020, 01:49:53 PM
If you exercise your religious RIGHT to assemble en masse, you should be denied your PRIVILEGE to health care should you come down with COVID-19, as you stick your middle finger in the faces of the people who unselfishly put their lives on the line to care for people who need it. There are a number of reports from many rural areas in the country of church services, weddings and funerals. SHAME. Please relay this sentiment to those you are in contact with that behave in this manner. God may protect idiots, but humans shouldn't.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 06, 2020, 02:28:38 PM
If you exercise your religious RIGHT to assemble en masse, you should be denied your PRIVILEGE to health care should you come down with COVID-19, as you stick your middle finger in the faces of the people who unselfishly put their lives on the line to care for people who need it. There are a number of reports from many rural areas in the country of church services, weddings and funerals. SHAME. Please relay this sentiment to those you are in contact with that behave in this manner. God may protect idiots, but humans shouldn't.
I just did a search... first hit was Buffalo, second was Baltimore, LA coonasses didn't show up until 3rd... But maybe rural people moved to those big cities...

There are dumbasses everywhere...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on April 06, 2020, 02:59:35 PM
I just did a search... first hit was Buffalo, second was Baltimore, LA coonasses didn't show up until 3rd... But maybe rural people moved to those big cities...

There are dumbasses everywhere...

JR

John, could you clarify what you mean by "LA coonasses"?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 06, 2020, 04:43:03 PM
John, could you clarify what you mean by "LA coonasses"?
It was intended by me as a term of endearment reserved for some cajun residents of rural Louisiana.... while some consider it an insult.. You can start more fist fights when the same word can be taken as an insult too.  ::) Probably depends on who said it. They routinely call themselves that but might not appreciate a stranger (like me) calling them that. 

The LA legislature condemned use of the word in the 80s, the LA air national guard tactical fighter group referred to itself as the "coonass militia" (until 1992).  Word may be derived from the french "conasse" (a pegorative).

Quote from: wiki
The title "Coonass Militia" was changed to "Cajun Militia" in 1992, and subsequently changed to "Bayou Militia" in the late 1990s.

JR

PS: Not to be confused with the "cajun navy"  which is an impromptu group of neighbors using their fishing boats to assist other neighbors during flooding events.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 06, 2020, 04:45:19 PM
John, could you clarify what you mean by "LA coonasses"?

I actually went to wikipedia on this.  The term refers to cajuns, and I assume the LA here is Louisiana and not Los Angeles.  The etymology of the term indicates there might not be any racist undertones.  It is, apparently, a term that was originally derogatory but that has been embraced by the folks it refers to. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 06, 2020, 06:10:40 PM
I actually went to wikipedia on this.  The term refers to cajuns, and I assume the LA here is Louisiana and not Los Angeles.  The etymology of the term indicates there might not be any racist undertones.  It is, apparently, a term that was originally derogatory but that has been embraced by the folks it refers to.
Like redneck or the N' word, that shall never be mentioned, it is OK for me to call myself a red neck, but if you call me a redneck that could be fighting words.  ;D

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on April 06, 2020, 09:24:01 PM
It was intended by me as a term of endearment reserved for some cajun residents of rural Louisiana.... while some consider it an insult.. You can start more fist fights when the same word can be taken as an insult too.  ::) Probably depends on who said it. They routinely call themselves that but might not appreciate a stranger (like me) calling them that. 

Thanks - that's an odd one I hadn't heard before.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 07, 2020, 12:36:18 AM
Am I the only one paying any attention to the US govt.  commandeering supplies destined for states or private customers?  It would actually make some sense if the feds seemed to have a sane and logical distribution plan, but sane and logical seem to be right out the window.  Not to mention, these supplies seem to be headed to private distributors, who according to reports are selling to the highest bidder rather than supplying areas with most need.  This is all very nebulous at the moment (which is problem #1, really), but it all sounds quite shady and counterproductive if our goal here is to fight an epidemic.  (Details are starting to ooze out--there's a fresh article in the NYT I haven't read yet.  It all sounds incredibly effed up.)

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/more-details-on-airlifts-and-supply-seizures (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/more-details-on-airlifts-and-supply-seizures)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 01:36:16 AM
US government reportedly in talks with tech companies on how to use location data in COVID-19 fight
https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/17/u-s-government-reportedly-in-talks-with-tech-companies-on-how-to-use-location-data-in-covid-19-fight/

Guess I missed this....

Don't know what's creepier...

Derbyshire police urge people not to visit Peak District under coronavirus lockdown rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHNxDzLsPeg

Welsh town uses drone to urge people to stay at home

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4GEZjUTkqc
So Korea the poster boy for doing this right(?) uses location data, for contact tracing...  I asked about this before. Probably unconstitutional without consent.

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 07, 2020, 02:08:01 AM
Am I the only one paying any attention to the US govt.  commandeering supplies destined for states or private customers?  It would actually make some sense if the feds seemed to have a sane and logical distribution plan, but sane and logical seem to be right out the window.  Not to mention, these supplies seem to be headed to private distributors, who according to reports are selling to the highest bidder rather than supplying areas with most need.  This is all very nebulous at the moment (which is problem #1, really), but it all sounds quite shady and counterproductive if our goal here is to fight an epidemic.  (Details are starting to ooze out--there's a fresh article in the NYT I haven't read yet.  It all sounds incredibly effed up.)

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/more-details-on-airlifts-and-supply-seizures (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/more-details-on-airlifts-and-supply-seizures)

i feel the same, but thats how US is set up unfortunately!

i have never seen as hard working people as US people. most have 2-3 jobs to survive in regular
none_pandemic times! and they dont complaint a bit... they all wanna give better future for their kids!

i just cant get my head around how this crapted 2 political parties running the country the way they want in their terms, and public letting them do it so!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 07, 2020, 10:18:09 AM
I just did a search... first hit was Buffalo, second was Baltimore, LA coonasses didn't show up until 3rd... But maybe rural people moved to those big cities...

There are dumbasses everywhere...

JR

I would ASSume that this is because people near populated areas are more likely to raise a "stink" when something like this is occurring so close to them. I highly doubt my father-in-law has stopped attending services 3 times a week in the Baptist double wide in central, rural Tennessee. I wouldn't know(ASSuming, I am aware). I stopped trying to have conversations with him after a museum visit. The skeleton/fossil we were viewing was approximately 600,000 years old. He told me that it could be 6,000 years old, at best, because of the Bible's verses/timeline and that the liberals and atheists all conspired together to denounce God. That type of mentality is dictating behavior concerning this pandemic, and one guess at his political affiliation...

Your last sentence was spot on. It's just unfortunate that they generally fall on one side of the political divide.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 11:44:56 AM
I would ASSume that this is because people near populated areas are more likely to raise a "stink" when something like this is occurring so close to them. I highly doubt my father-in-law has stopped attending services 3 times a week in the Baptist double wide in central, rural Tennessee. I wouldn't know(ASSuming, I am aware). I stopped trying to have conversations with him after a museum visit. The skeleton/fossil we were viewing was approximately 600,000 years old. He told me that it could be 6,000 years old, at best, because of the Bible's verses/timeline and that the liberals and atheists all conspired together to denounce God. That type of mentality is dictating behavior concerning this pandemic, and one guess at his political affiliation...

Your last sentence was spot on. It's just unfortunate that they generally fall on one side of the political divide.
OK here is another anecdote you may find stereotypical and amusing.  Back when I was still reading a local paper once a week (on sundays, it had comics). I found myself compelled to write a letter to the editor disputing another LTE claiming that teaching evolution in the schools was responsible for the breakdown in family values, respect for teachers, etc. I responded strongly that evolution was established science and children should be taught that in schools, to prepare them for the real world. 

A day or two later my home phone rang and an upset caller was in distress because my letter to the editor disagreed with what his religious leader taught him and he hoped I would explain. I quickly calculated that I did not want to become his replacement religious inspiration (answer man) and told him to disregard me and follow his own church's advice.  :o

====
I expect many people these days are scared by the doom and gloom media making them desperate for social support and comfort such as a church group meeting might offer, some religious leaders may selfishly seize upon this opportunity to expand their flock.   

In the newspaper I have seen reports of curbside palm sunday services, and even taking confessions through a car window, so most responsible people (even religious leaders) are trying to flatten the curve with social distancing.

My point is that there are dumbasses everywhere and I am weary of insulting stereotypes about fly over rural voters "clutching  guns and bibles".  While I expect my neighbors do have both more guns and more bibles around than your neighbors.

JR 


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 12:01:38 PM
Hearing some new reports about collusion between WHO and China, suppressing reports about human to human transmission and scope of the viral outbreak.  These weeks of delay prevented containing the outbreak and avoiding worldwide pandemic.

I am not surprised to hear that a UN agency is corrupt, but this complicit behavior resulted in many deaths already and the death toll is still climbing. It is too late to fix it for this cycle, but we need to clean house (disinfect) there before the next one.

With exponential viral infection growth functions timely and reliable data is important. The WHO could have saved lives (it's mission) , instead it did the opposite.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 07, 2020, 01:37:48 PM
Wisconsin today:

Primary elections and the election for one of their own(Republican held Supreme Court) are being held today. Most rural election locations are open. There are reports that FIVE of 180 voting locations are open in Milwaukee. I'm sure that will be a fair representation of the people's choice. SHAME ON the USA.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: dmp on April 07, 2020, 01:46:09 PM
Wisconsin today:

Primary elections and the election for one of their own(Republican held Supreme Court) are being held today. Most rural election locations are open. There are reports that FIVE of 180 voting locations are open in Milwaukee. I'm sure that will be a fair representation of the people's choice. SHAME ON the USA.

Come on - this bothsidesism is ridiculous.  SHAME ON the Republicans. This was 100% by them. Residents of WI have been watching this play out for a couple weeks.
The Democratic Governor opened a special emergency session last week because holding an in-person election would be highly dangerous during this pandemic.  The Republican legislature refused to consider options - immediately closing the special session with no debate.
Therefore, Gov Evers wrote an executive order yesterday to extend mail in ballots by a week and not have in-person voting today.
The WI Supreme Court overturned the order last night followed by the US Supreme court - both in partisan decisions - SCOTUS decision was 5-4 Republican appointees.  Note that both court decisions came without in-person arguments - the judges did not meet in person for the decision while ruling that ordinary voters must go to the polls during a pandemic (unless they had requested a mail in ballot weeks ago)
This is a Republican efforts to disenfranchise voters and a power grab of the court seat that is up for election today in WI.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 01:59:04 PM
Come on - this bothsidesism is ridiculous.  SHAME ON the Republicans. This was 100% by them. Residents of WI have been watching this play out for a couple weeks.
The Democratic Governor opened a special emergency session last week because holding an in-person election would be highly dangerous during this pandemic.  The Republican legislature refused to consider options - immediately closing the special session with no debate.
Therefore, Gov Evers wrote an executive order yesterday to extend mail in ballots by a week and not have in-person voting today.
The WI Supreme Court overturned the order last night followed by the US Supreme court - both in partisan decisions - SCOTUS decision was 5-4 Republican appointees.  Note that both court decisions came without in-person arguments - the judges did not meet in person for the decision while ruling that ordinary voters must go to the polls during a pandemic (unless they had requested a mail in ballot weeks ago)
This is a Republican efforts to disenfranchise voters and a power grab of the court seat that is up for election today in WI.


I thought the election was postponed to June?

be safe.

JR
[edit- overruled by state courts... This does not sound very wise....  /edit]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: dmp on April 07, 2020, 02:04:56 PM
Wisconsin Primary election is today.
There was an idea to move it to June - I think the Gov proposed that.

Unless you already got a mail in ballot, Republicans are forcing people to go to the polls (or not vote)
Hard to be safe.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 07, 2020, 02:55:38 PM

[edit- overruled by state courts... This does not sound very wise....  /edit]

Not only does it sound unwise, it sounds unfair in the face of obviousness. :-\
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 05:26:21 PM
Wisconsin Primary election is today.
There was an idea to move it to June - I think the Gov proposed that.

Unless you already got a mail in ballot, Republicans are forcing people to go to the polls (or not vote)
Hard to be safe.
The cut off for mail in ballots was last thursday... I have not been following this, and thought it was postponed.

The primary seems to be over except for some last minute surprise from a brokered convention (Cuomo ? but too soon to speculate about that).

Stay safe,,, avoid crowds... 

 I worry a little about election workers that generally skew to the older end of the age spectrum.

JR

@ iturnwhatever.... this was probably decided on points of law not fairness.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: dmp on April 07, 2020, 05:41:42 PM
There is an important WI supreme court seat on the ballot, Kelly (R) vs Karofsky (D)

Republicans are trying to win the seat with this



Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 06:25:27 PM
There is an important WI supreme court seat on the ballot, Kelly (R) vs Karofsky (D)

Republicans are trying to win the seat with this
I am not sure I want to know, but does delaying the vote, help the democrats?

Politics is what politicians do... for better and worse, mostly worse.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 07, 2020, 06:53:50 PM
Hearing some new reports about collusion between WHO and China, suppressing reports about human to human transmission and scope of the viral outbreak. 
JR
Any reliable documentation, or just more conspiracy bullsh it?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 07, 2020, 06:53:54 PM
Politics is what politicians do... for better and worse, mostly worse.
JR

nice
+1
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: dmp on April 07, 2020, 07:19:18 PM
I am not sure I want to know, but does delaying the vote, help the democrats?

I wondered about the logic of it also, but generally restricting the vote helps Republicans.
In this case also, cities seem to be having the most difficulty with in person voting today with the pandemic - and cities lean Democratic.

Quote

Politics is what politicians do... for better and worse, mostly worse.

JR

Well, remember that in the future when the tide turns the other way.  I expect there will be significant blowback considering the extreme actions Trump and the Republican party have taken in the past decade.


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 08:39:18 PM
Any reliable documentation, or just more conspiracy bullsh it?
There are too many conspiracies surrounding this COVID outbreak to list them all... no I do not deal in conspiracy theories (not on purpose)

The WHO appears to have consistently touted the Chinese party line, ignoring evidence of human to human transmission, including reports from Taiwan (who isn't a country according to China) who experienced infected health care workers.

I even repeated the bad information from WHO here, saying this wasn't a pandemic.... before it became irrefutable.

The US who is a major funding supporter of the WHO (UN) is already looking into congressional investigations. It's OK I can wait (I hope), but I don't trust China as far as I can throw them.

To dissect the political angles, POTUS is blaming China and WHO for understating the severity of the COVID outbreak, while the opposition is blaming POTUS for under-reacting. So yes there is some political tension and whataboutism...

I was watching the same early news reports (including WHO statements) and anybody who says this pandemic was immediately obvious, is smarter than me. 

JR

PS: my search turns up mostly right leaning sources, so I'll let you do your own search, or just ignore me.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 07, 2020, 08:49:05 PM
@ iturnwhatever.... this was probably decided on points of law not fairness.
Calling people names just hardens their positions and closes their minds to new thoughts.


JR
lets stick to facts....  and not get personal, while that is an early sign of losing any debate.


I can't help that the selfish acts being described fall in the hand of Republicans.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 07, 2020, 10:35:52 PM
OK I am getting a sense of the political tension here (not here but Wisconsin)... pretty much the same tired old screed about voter suppression vs. vote fraud. (again?)

The political apparatchiks on both sides are already maneuvering for Nov...   :o

Be safe and drive by, this will be back, again and again.

JR

PS: I finally figured out who President Trumps blowhardism reminds me of... apparently he sees it too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGDyubi5eEE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGDyubi5eEE)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 07, 2020, 11:42:01 PM
So what happened today? 
Trump fired yet another IG, this time because he was afraid the guy was not sleazy enough to handle the stimulus package in a way that would suitably benefit Trump and his cronies. 
We learned that Peter Navarro wrote up two memos, one as early as late January, detailing the potential havoc the coronavirus could wreak, and recommending the govt. stock up on PPE and other medical gear in preparation--something that Trump chose not to bother with until mid-March, when the crisis was well under way. 
Meanwhile, Trump's press secretary who never held a single press conference is out (who cares?  She never did anything anyway.)
And the acting Navy Secretary (because no one who will work for Trump can stand up to Senate confirmation, apparently) is out on his ear because he couldn't help but make a complete ass of himself.

And people in Wisconsin are risking infection and worse to go vote because Republicans and our hyper-partisan, far-right Supreme Court majority see this as a great opportunity for some vote suppression. 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 08, 2020, 05:49:41 AM
Derbyshire police urge people not to visit Peak District under coronavirus lockdown rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHNxDzLsPeg

Doesn't make much sense. People visiting nature while keeping a good distance from each other is actually encouraged by the government here in Germany...

I am still sore from extended mountain bike tours I made last weekend. The most (and really only) critical points for infection for me are visiting grocery stores, where many people congregate, touch the same surfaces, breath in air that does not circulate a lot etc...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 08, 2020, 05:53:23 AM
Well, remember that in the future when the tide turns the other way.  I expect there will be significant blowback considering the extreme actions Trump and the Republican party have taken in the past decade.

They are doing all they can to stave off that inevitable future. But eventually the day will come when they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 08, 2020, 09:14:32 AM
So what happened today? 

In order to not "repost" this entire thread... You can't make this stuff up. SMH. Speak up. Speak out. Hopefully there is not a "lockdown" for our nation's general election. I fear the Republicans sense they've got a "tool" in their pocket. It's already been used once and it would appear the public is not going to raise up. What will it take? I fear that people are willing to test the answer of that question. I will never leave my money in the northwoods of Wisconsin while snowmobiling ever again. Beyond my vote, it the only recourse I have.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 08, 2020, 09:27:37 AM
That's a sinister sounding way of putting it.  Not sure why I can imagine a James Bond villain or Dr. Evil petting a cat when I read some comments...

"wait until everyone's out of work and we'll see how great you're doing" ...etc.....

Let me ask you, how would you feel  if that comment you just made was coming from China? Seriously? I'm actually being serious. How would you feel? We're all in this together right? 

I'm not implying anything at all. I'm just asking if it makes you feel good to hear something like that coming from someone other than your own... Just curious....

My comment has nothing to do with the coronavirus crisis and everything with the pain and suffering greedy a-holes, confused ideologues and evil demagogues have brought to the world. I am not talking about good and decent people (some of whom I know personally), who have been mislead time and time again to vote for these charlatans, but the evil machination that is the right wing in business, politics and media, especially in the US.

I don't make these comments about China because they never had a democracy that slowly, piece by piece, got damaged by bad people.

But in the US, there's hope and historical precedent. Slavery was ended in the 19th century, monopolies were busted in the early 20th century, equality was restored in the later part of the first half of the 20th century, segragation was ended and voting rights strengthened etc. The neoliberal era will end, dangerous digital media will be regulated, right wing politicians and justices will be sent packing, climate change will be adressed. Bad ideas will go where they belong, to the garbage heap of history.

So, you see, nothing sinister about it. Just hope and change.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 08, 2020, 09:54:28 AM
So what is your answer? Doesn't matter how "You" see things in this question I asked....

How would it make you feel? I'm sure China doesn't see things the way "you" do about them....

Since I didn't make the comment "wait until everyone's out of work and we'll see how great you're doing" and would not make such a comment, why would don't ask whomever made that comment?

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 08, 2020, 10:41:50 AM
Doesn't make much sense. People visiting nature while keeping a good distance from each other is actually encouraged by the government here in Germany...

I am still sore from extended mountain bike tours I made last weekend. The most (and really only) critical points for infection for me are visiting grocery stores, where many people congregate, touch the same surfaces, breath in air that does not circulate a lot etc...
I saw a report that French officials in Paris were prohibiting exercising outdoors (like jogging).

This does not seem like risky behavior if you maintain safe spacing.

JR   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 08, 2020, 11:00:58 AM
So Trump apparently disposed of 7 IGs.  Because Trump needs people who will do his bidding and turn a blind eye to his corruption and incompetence.  That's important when you're trying to become President-For-Life. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 08, 2020, 11:49:40 AM
If China were to say this about Germany, how would you feel?

Sorry if I wasn't specific enough or confused the question by lumping it in with other things I likened to fictional villains...

So honestly, nothing weird about my question, just curiosity,,,, How would you feel ?

You don't have to answer that....  it obviously wouldn't  matter.....would  it?

It wouldn't make much sense WRT Germany. Unlike the UK we never followed the US full-on on the path of neoliberalism. And if someone from China were to say "tax evading billionaires and manipulative rightwing politicians in Germany will get what's coming to them", I would tend to agree.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 08, 2020, 11:54:10 AM
Thanks!

You guys and gals (sorry ...haven't learned the new terms yet but them too...with love)  haven't done too shabby yourself...... ;D

I'm really only focused so much on the US in these discussions because the rest of the world tends to follow. And probably because contrasts are so stark and so very obvious, on every level. You just cannot make this up, e.g. mild-mannered, intellectual, squeaky-clean Obama vs., you know, Trump. It's positively cartoonish.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on April 08, 2020, 12:53:24 PM
A lot bad to say about Obama (e.g. indiscriminatly drone murdering people without any legal or even moral justification) , sadly not the things the right wing is raving about.


Btw. do any of the US commentators object to devastating economical sanctions on Iran that multiplies the already desastrous suffering of totally unrelated citizens, that are often suppressed by their own leaders. I personally know reports of the devastating consequences, but the public in which name it happens, just doesn´t seem to be aware?
No media coverage, etc.
It´s so wrong.
EDIT:No accusational question towards you, may sound like it due to phrasing, just interested in your perception!

We can speak about Germany´s dark sides too, I just didn´t suppose that much intrest in that...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 08, 2020, 02:20:59 PM


Nah... Dark Techno maybe..... It's the best from there.....
and maybe some dark beer...

Hard to get good dark beer in Germany (i tried for years at the musik messe). Best I could do was Alt bier that was better than pilsners but lacking IMO.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 08, 2020, 04:06:38 PM
It's funny....maybe sad, but , that 24 pack of variety beers from Germany I received as a gift in recent past had a bunch of Helles beers and I was hesitant to drink them because I ASSumed it was like Devil's beer or something....Was a bit weird that there were so many of them...lol

Probably my religious background......

But they were actually really good.... My Brother in Law  told me what it meant when I regifted him some.........  I guess I was too lazy to look myself...... :-[

Erdinger (German) has some nice beers, use to drink in pubs/London,
from the tap... pretty amazing. extremely foggy,
almost like crazy light show ! end up keep ordering! end up laging  ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 08, 2020, 04:14:49 PM
@ iturnwhatever.... this was probably decided on points of law not fairness.
Ha, ha  ha ha ha ha ha ha HA!  Oh man, that made my day!

Quote
…the dissent refers to voters who have not yet received their absentee ballots. But even in an ordinary election, voters who request an absentee ballot at the deadline for requesting ballots (which was this past Friday in this case) will usually receive their ballots on the day before or day of the election, which in this case would be today or tomorrow. The plaintiffs put forward no probative evidence in the District Court that these voters here would be in a substantially different position from late-requesting voters in other Wisconsin elections with respect to the timing of their receipt of absentee ballots.
You know, why should this election DURING A F'ING PANDEMIC be any different than any other election?  This is the legal equivalent of plugging one's ear and yelling, "LALLALALALALALA".

This was about one thing:  suppressing voter turnout in order to hold a conservative majority on WI's Supreme Court. 

In completely unrelated news, published in the Madison Journal of Completely Obvious Side-Effects of Trying to Hold an Election During a Pandemic News:

Quote
The day before a controversial spring election amid a global health crisis, some Wisconsin voters say they still haven’t received the absentee ballots they requested some two weeks ago.

With the Friday deadline for requesting an absentee ballot now passed, voters still waiting on their ballots face a choice: Either risk their health and go to the polls Tuesday or hope their ballots haven’t been lost and will arrive at their homes Tuesday in time to fill them out and get them postmarked by 8 p.m.
Who could have foreseen this?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 09, 2020, 09:24:09 AM
How would the US react if China offered to send "expertise" if this had happened in the US first?

The only thing the US restrictions on Iran have accomplished, is a failure of moderate politics, freeing the path to more extremism. Just like in Iraq, the US creates terrorism, leading to millions and millions of fugitives. Just average people like you and me, fleeing their country because of violence and extremism.

But that's a picture you can only paint if you actually know some people from/in Iran, Syria and some other places and don't get your "info" from Fox news or worse.


https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11106235/iran-blames-coronavirus-outbreak-us-biological-attack-death-toll-lockdown-cities/ (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11106235/iran-blames-coronavirus-outbreak-us-biological-attack-death-toll-lockdown-cities/)  "IRAN's top general claimed today the global coronavirus outbreak was the result of a US biological warfare attack on China. "
https://www.newsweek.com/iran-back-china-calls-us-coronavirus-1493041 (https://www.newsweek.com/iran-back-china-calls-us-coronavirus-1493041) "Iran has backed China's calls to investigate yet unfounded claims of the United States being the origin of the new coronavirus as an international blame game worsened over a pandemic that has"

https://www.dailywire.com/news/shocker-iran-blames-america-and-the-jews-for-coronavirus (https://www.dailywire.com/news/shocker-iran-blames-america-and-the-jews-for-coronavirus)

"The despotic theocratic regime in Iran, unsurprisingly, is blaming America and the Jews for the coronavirus outbreak in Iran that has now claimed the life of the former Iranian ambassador to Syria as well as an adviser to Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini. "

https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/19/iran-irgc-coronavirus-propaganda-blames-america-israel/ (https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/03/19/iran-irgc-coronavirus-propaganda-blames-america-israel/)
"As news of coronavirus cases in Iran spread, the IRGC quickly developed a narrative for the disease. ... Besides trying to blame the United States and Israel for the virus, the IRGC's propaganda "

etc....   are these sources worse than fox news?
Even the Saudis hate the USA these days...
===
It isn't fair to characterize an entire nation from a few high profile news makers.

I don't think the Saudis ever did really like the US. Who do you think funded and participated in the 9/11 attack? The Saudis are dependent on the US for military security, so they are allied with us out of necessity. Saudis are currently wrestling with Russia over oil exports market share.  The world is awash in oil with COVID slowdown reducing demand.

JR

PS: I moved this into the political rant thread where it seems more appropriate
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 09, 2020, 11:17:57 AM
A small local church here is having a Drive In Easter service... Guess they will have a transmitter set up so people can tune their car radios to the service.... happening in the parking lot......
I'll bet drive in movies could make a comeback if this persists. One in TX was doing well but they had to shut down because of governor's stay at home order.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 09, 2020, 11:54:14 AM
I am not a fan of dropping helicopter money, and truly hope this does not become the new normal expected response from government (but it probably will).

The loans you are seeing are the tip of the ice berg, central banks are intervening in bond market, etc.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 09, 2020, 12:21:53 PM
Because US testing response was so freaking good, federal support for coronavirus testing sites ends on Friday. 
Testing has barely been established in the US & Trump and the idiot brigade are closing up shop (at least partially), undoubtedly patting themselves on the back for a job well done. 

This disease is not going away, and testing is one of the most crucial weapons in fighting it.   This notion that it's time to fold up the tents and go home is insane, but that's what the Trump people are pushing these days.  Happy Days Are Here Again,  blah blah blah.   

They don't learn, these people.  They don't want to learn.  Learning might get in the way of their being disgusting human beings.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829955099/federal-support-for-coronavirus-testing-sites-end-as-peak-nears?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=atc&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20200408
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 09, 2020, 03:36:44 PM
Because US testing response was so freaking good, federal support for coronavirus testing sites ends on Friday. 
Testing has barely been established in the US & Trump and the idiot brigade are closing up shop (at least partially), undoubtedly patting themselves on the back for a job well done. 
cute
Quote
This disease is not going away, and testing is one of the most crucial weapons in fighting it.
true
Quote
  This notion that it's time to fold up the tents and go home is insane, but that's what the Trump people are pushing these days.  Happy Days Are Here Again,  blah blah blah.   
not true
Quote
They don't learn, these people.  They don't want to learn.  Learning might get in the way of their being disgusting human beings.
dark and scary place...
Quote
https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/08/829955099/federal-support-for-coronavirus-testing-sites-end-as-peak-nears?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=atc&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20200408
abbot is ramping up production on their 5 minute test to 50k a day, but in a country of 300M that is a drop in the bucket... we need more like 100x that and self test capability, like pregnancy tests.

I somehow doubt the feds have decided that testing is unnecessary , while the make shift test setups were probably more to look like they were doing something, then really effective. Of course people were disappointed when that particular money flow stopped.

Getting some glimmers of optimism from NY state about flattening the curve.

On downside there are a handful of reports about recovered covid patients testing positive again... Unclear that these are not outlier testing errors. We are still learning.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 09, 2020, 04:24:39 PM

On downside there are a handful of reports about recovered covid patients testing positive again... Unclear that these are not outlier testing errors. We are still learning.

JR

according to doctors in Turkey
"this virus is staying with you 29 25 days" regardless of u have no symptom, light, med, heavy or hospitalized  level of sickness!


edit:  25 days, not 29
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 09, 2020, 05:23:59 PM
according to doctors in Turkey
"this virus is staying with you 29 days" regardless of u have no symptom, light, med, heavy or hospitalized  level of sickness!
Do you mean contagious for 29 days after recovered?

I have heard reports about shedding virus for weeks after symptoms subside, but what about symptomless infections?

A vaccine or two would really be nice... I wonder if the same hollyweird screwballs will argue that the vaccine is unhealthy.  :o

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 09, 2020, 05:38:53 PM
Do you mean contagious for 29 days after recovered?

JR


sorry, its 25 days (will edit  original post) ...
no its from the day u pick up the virus...

greens are recovery, or immune system etc...
dots lines  over chart lines are  contagious time...
its from 14 days to 25 days, depends on case...
bottom case is hospitalized, with death, or recovery result...  time line may not make sense  from the pic...
but when listen, makes sense...


edit:
yellow :  no symptom
orange : symptoms are on
purle : hospitalized
bottom purple: ICU
green : recovery, or immune 
bottom right corner : death or recovery

edit  2 :
top line 30%  : no symtoms
second from top : 55% : light
third from top : 10% : hospital
bottom : 5% : ICU

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 09, 2020, 05:58:08 PM
i am no graphic person.... but should be more clear idea

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 10, 2020, 12:19:26 AM
so in delightfully political news, the feds confiscated a shipment of 500 ventilators bound for Colorado, and then made a big show of giving them back 100 of them (with Trump using it as an opportunity to talk up endangered Republican Colorado senator Cory Gardner).  Insane bullsh!t. 

January 28th, folks, is when Peter Navarro delivered that memo saying it was time to stock up on PPEs and other medical gear.  Mid-March, Trump finally decides it's time to order a few things.  And now Trump is covering up his stupidity and ineptitude by stealing other people's stuff.  These are amazing times we're living in.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 10, 2020, 09:05:08 AM
Because US testing response was so freaking good, federal support for coronavirus testing sites ends on Friday. 
Testing has barely been established in the US & Trump and the idiot brigade are closing up shop (at least partially), undoubtedly patting themselves on the back for a job well done. 

cute

Isn't it funny how displeasure is voiced when it doesn't work for one's narrative(@iturnwhatever). No?
This was accurate until NPR reported it as true and the administration back pedaled. Philadelphia suburb with 1000 positives and increasing daily was one of the federal testing sites to be pulled. If it was a funding issue as claimed in another post, it seems to have been solved awfully quickly. Weird.

This notion that it's time to fold up the tents and go home is insane, but that's what the Trump people are pushing these days.  Happy Days Are Here Again,  blah blah blah. 

not true

Reports are leaking that the current administration is going to now attempt to "open up the country" on May 1st. Rural areas are still lacking testing, as well as many others. Feds just tried to cut testing 48 hours ago.  I think everyone can read between the lines without political favoritism being pushed by denying status quo via semantics.

*my state governor recently hinted at the fact that large gatherings (concerts,plays,sporting events,etc.)will not be occurring by/this summer. It has not officially been mandated but common sense would suggest this is a safe course of action. This affects me immensely, financially. Too bad the president can't shut his mouth, open his eyes and make INFORMED decisions.


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 10, 2020, 11:44:53 AM
   ME: This notion that it's time to fold up the tents and go home is insane, but that's what the Trump people are pushing these days.  Happy Days Are Here Again,  blah blah blah.   

YOU:  not true
JR

NEWS:
  President Trump wants a strategy for resuming business activity by May 1, if not sooner.



Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 10, 2020, 12:17:36 PM

NEWS:
  President Trump wants a strategy for resuming business activity by May 1, if not sooner.

This is only news if you haven't been paying attention. President Trump has been talking about reopening business (economy, jobs, etc) for weeks or longer already.

I have explained his negotiating strategy before, but one more time...  ::)  First he lays down a directional marker or anchor (to reopen business ASAP), then the "when" it can happen gets negotiated or worked out.  The when has moved out at least once already and I don't expect there to be a single firm "when" date.  More likely the private sector will reopen based on their specific needs being met, and their importance to the larger economy. If we don't plan and actively work to get the economy restarted, it will not magically happen by itself. We could see an economic contraction that makes the great recession, seem like a cake walk.

Of course public safety is a given. Wide testing is an important requirement for getting business reopened. 

JR

PS: Reportedly commercial test labs have thousands (ten of thousands) deep backlog in COVID test results. We need alternatives like Abbots 5 -15 minute fast test (that is processed at the test site) but 50-100k a day are not enough. I am still hoping for fast, easy, self administered covid tests like pregnancy tests.

As a bridge solution United Health performed a study with 500 patients self administering a nasal swab, the reduced exposure to health system workers, and public. The self administered tests were reportedly >90% accurate about confirming COVID in positive patients. Not perfect but a step in the right direction. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 10, 2020, 01:15:57 PM
Florida:

"This particular pandemic is one where, I don't think nationwide there's been a single fatality under 25. For whatever reason it just doesn't seem to threaten, you know, kids," DeSantis said at an educators' meeting to discuss distance learning.

This is verifiably incorrect.

Party affiliation: One guess... and kids give it to Grandma and Grandpa, even if they fare better.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 10, 2020, 01:48:49 PM


I have explained his negotiating strategy before, but one more time...  ::) 

JR


This isn't about negotiating, this is about leading a nation.  what part of that don't you understand?  Do you think he & I & 300 million other Americans are sitting at a table sliding pieces of paper back and forth with dates & numbers written on them? 

That may be exactly why he's such a failure as a leader--all he knows how to do is make deals.  We need vision, strategy, compassion and comfort in a leader--all he brings to the table is "negotiation" and way too much wishful thinking and "hunches."

Seriously, John, you think this how a country should be led?   

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 10, 2020, 02:11:34 PM
I have explained his negotiating strategy before, but one more time...  ::)
Who exactly is he negotiating with?  The virus?

To quote from someone who appears to know what they are talking about: "‘You don’t make the timeline; the virus makes the timeline." - Dr. Anthony Fauci.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 10, 2020, 02:34:19 PM
Who exactly is he negotiating with?  The virus?
the public... (including his detractors).
Quote
To quote from someone who appears to know what they are talking about: "‘You don’t make the timeline; the virus makes the timeline." - Dr. Anthony Fauci.
exactly... as I already said The "when" is dependent on how much we can get accomplished, but this will not magically happen by itself, especially if we do not plan or make any effort to reopen the economy.

It is cute to think of the virus making a time line, but as we have already seen the infection trajectory depends hugely on human behavior. We can bend the curve, and timeline by following medical leader's (like Dr Fauci's) advice. The virus is a factor, but so is our behavior. I expect Fauci's point is that dealing with the virus must also be considered. This is not an either/or activity, but a do both program.

JR

PS: A fair criticism of President Trump that his detractors haven't mentioned yet (or I haven't heard)  is that President Trump is perhaps trying to talk up the stock market that he considers a report card of sorts (not safe long term strategy IMO).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 11, 2020, 12:14:16 PM

PS: A fair criticism of President Trump that his detractors haven't mentioned yet (or I haven't heard)  is that President Trump is perhaps trying to talk up the stock market that he considers a report card of sorts (not safe long term strategy IMO).

I was talking about that upstream, and lots of others in the big wide world have discussed it as well. 

This idea that he's negotiating with the American public---maybe that's how his brain works, but he's doing a crappy job.  He seems actually to be losing support, even among a small slice of Republicans, for his handling of coronavirus.

And his constant downplaying of testing (maybe because he's constitutionally incapable of admitting error or accepting blame?) isn't fixing anything.  (As you yourself have said, a lot and for a while, testing is absolutely crucial here.)  That's hugely problematic for the entire nation.  It's one of the reasons (aside from the profiteering & general chaos)  you're seeing certain states & large corporations looking to solve this outside of the federal govt. 

This is one of those situations where a strong and coordinated response from the feds is essential--this is absolutely the kind of thing we have a federal govt. for--and Trump is not serving the nation.  If anything, he's working harder than ever to devolve our govt. into an authoritarian, illiberal democracy--but that's  too much for me to get into right now. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 11, 2020, 12:22:29 PM
I was talking about that upstream, and lots of others in the big wide world have discussed it as well. 

This idea that he's negotiating with the American public---maybe that's how his brain works, but he's doing a crappy job.  He seems actually to be losing support, even among a small slice of Republicans, for his handling of coronavirus.

And his constant downplaying of testing (maybe because he's constitutionally incapable of admitting error or accepting blame?) isn't fixing anything.  (As you yourself have said, a lot and for a while, testing is absolutely crucial here.)  That's hugely problematic for the entire nation.  It's one of the reasons (aside from the profiteering & general chaos)  you're seeing certain states & large corporations looking to solve this outside of the federal govt. 

This is one of those situations where a strong and coordinated response from the feds is essential--this is absolutely the kind of thing we have a federal govt. for--and Trump is not serving the nation.  If anything, he's working harder than ever to devolve our govt. into an authoritarian, illiberal democracy--but that's  too much for me to get into right now.
They are reluctant to talk about tests that are not available yet,,, but rumors are that antibody testing is getting close. That will be instrumental to better managing lives during pandemic.

I still can't read minds.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 11, 2020, 01:17:01 PM

I still can't read minds.

JR

I can listen to words and observe actions.  Trump, in his words, diminishes the importance of tests.  Trump, in his actions, has been extremely slow in implementing testing on a widespread basis.  He has regularly lied about the availability of testing. 

That is my evidence.  What's in a mind is of far less importance to me than words and deeds. 

*I find your "I still can't read minds" dodge reminiscent of a certain swath of modern philosopy--Wittgenstein, relativism, etc.   I know that many of your right wing comrades take it back even further to the Stoics & Cynics.  I've long had an appreciation for both.  But we live in the real world, where decisions must be made.  At some point, those various attitudes become bullsh!t evasion for taking responsibility (or admitting error), or excuse-making for actions that on their face are moderately harmful or at worst horrendous. 

On the other hand, I do appreciate that all minds do not work the same.  It's fascinating stuff, and it certainly brings up some of the issues you bring up.  But it shouldn't be used as an excuse for dodging culpability. 
 
Since it seems to be the sort of thing that interests you, I would recommend to you a book called The Tell-Tale Brain by V.S. Ramachandran.  It's not a perfect book but it's extremely thought-provoking and has some good insight into why brains work as they do. 

P.S.  The irony(or contradiction) of you telling us we just don't understand how Trump's brain works and then telling us you can't read minds is not lost on me. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 11, 2020, 01:25:22 PM
PS: A fair criticism of President Trump that his detractors haven't mentioned yet (or I haven't heard)  is that President Trump is perhaps trying to talk up the stock market that he considers a report card of sorts (not safe long term strategy IMO).
What is clear is that he is scared to death of a tanked economy going in to the election season in the Fall.  Far more than a few million deaths, he's worried that if the stock market doesn't recover and people don't have work to return to by the time voting happens then he's doomed, no matter how much cheating can be facilitated in the key swing states.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 11, 2020, 01:36:51 PM
The amount of personal attacks suggest a lack of substantive issues.

In case it isn't clear, it is bad practice to stir up public demand for remedies that do not exist yet. It scares the sheeple and wastes time and effort answering more questions.

At least you are keeping these examples in the right thread.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 11, 2020, 02:22:28 PM
The amount of personal attacks suggest a lack of substantive issues.

In case it isn't clear, it is bad practice to stir up public demand for remedies that do not exist yet. It scares the sheeple and wastes time and effort answering more questions.

At least you are keeping these examples in the right thread.

JR

If you consider it a personal attack when you're called out for sloppy and inconsistent arguments, so be it.  That's on you. 

Honestly, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by remedies that do not exist.  Do you mean testing?  The testing that other countries seem to have plenty of, and yet Trump's govt. is still incapable of delivering on a proper scale?  Or are you talking about the unproven "remedies" that Trump has stirred up so much support for (hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin)? 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on April 11, 2020, 02:25:20 PM
Interesting pic
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 11, 2020, 03:01:26 PM
For some unintended positive consequences from the extreme COVID measures, murder rates and crime statistics are down in a number of countries. Some of this may be Police declining to engage about petty misdemeanors but vastly reduced murder statistics is not as easily explained.  Some are worried about increased domestic violence from same bad actors picking targets closer to home, so we'll see.

===

For some speculation, farmers are dumping crops they cannot sell because of restaurant demand falling off a cliff. Thousands of gallons of milk dumped into waste pools. Pork bellies rendered down to less valuable lard instead of bacon because of reduced demand.  My speculation is... does this mean we are eating healthier, and/or less?  It is no secret we were eating way too much before.

I apologize for all my sloppy thinking.  8)

JR

PS: While related indirectly,  I feel that I need to compliment SF leaders for outlawing reusable shopping bags because of the COVID transmission health risk. I won't even take the easy opportunity for cheap shot, and applaud common sense whenever I see it.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on April 11, 2020, 03:12:59 PM
I'm OK with Trump being a salesman, of promoting the country, of trying to motivate people to improve things.

But as any legitimate salesman knows, at some point you actually have to deliver a product.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 11, 2020, 04:47:05 PM
Now I'm really scared: Trump said the facts would determine the next move, though he reiterated his desire to re-open the economy. Asked what metrics he would use to make his judgment, he pointed at his forehead: “The metrics right here, that’s my metrics.”

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/using-his-own-metrics/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 11, 2020, 05:01:20 PM
And here's something to upset the privacy freaks (and some of the rest of us too): Apple and Google are building a coronavirus tracking system into iOS and Android

 https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/10/21216484/google-apple-coronavirus-contract-tracing-bluetooth-location-tracking-data-app
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 11, 2020, 05:30:10 PM
Interesting pic

The stock market was way overvalued even before corona.  Inflating it now does not seem a good long term solution.

The economy will be in bad shape for a while.  Giving the middle class some money is good,  but most of the bailout will go to those at the top,  yet again,  and will be paid for by the middle class,  yet again. The net wealth gap will increase even further after this.

Is anyone else concerned about this?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 12, 2020, 04:31:28 AM
The stock market was way overvalued even before corona.  Inflating it now does not seem a good long term solution.

The economy will be in bad shape for a while.  Giving the middle class some money is good,  but most of the bailout will go to those at the top,  yet again,  and will be paid for by the middle class,  yet again. The net wealth gap will increase even further after this.

Is anyone else concerned about this?

i think u r forgetting, we are living in the USA...
how do you even think government gonna bail out the poors, and the gap will decrease  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 12, 2020, 11:41:48 AM
So I was thinking again about Trump "negotiating."  Maybe looking at Trump's weaknesses as a leader through the prism of what he undoubtedly considers one of his great strengths would give some insight.

Initially here, the question was asked, "Whom is he negotiating against?"  The better question might be, "Whom is he negotiating for?" 
Is he negotiating for healthcare workers, trying to keep them safe and  well equipped to fight this battle?

Is he negotiating for grocery store and delivery workers, underpaid, underprotected "heroes" in a country that hasn't seen a minimum wage increase in more than a decade?

Is he negotiating for the health and safety of the American people when he privately suggests that maybe the coronavirus should just be allowed to "wash over" the entire country?

Is he negotiating for transparent and efficient governance when he fires the IG who was to oversee stimulus funds and makes an undisguised power grab to gain control of the funds with less transparency? 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 12, 2020, 11:50:14 AM
The stock market was way overvalued even before corona.  Inflating it now does not seem a good long term solution.
I have been saying this for years, but we have precious few alternate asset classes that are safer, or deliver decent return.  I find it instructive that Warren Buffett is not buying stocks because he thinks they are too expensive, but he can get better deals lending money to desperate companies.

IMO we never fully normalized after the credit collapse of 2007/2008.  +1 injecting more liquidity now seems a little risky, but the alternative is a recession that makes the great recession, look like a cake walk.
Quote
The economy will be in bad shape for a while.
Return to normalcy is far from easily predictable. It is clear the longer we keep it shuttered, the harder it will be to get it going full strength again. I expect the new economy will be different in several ways, some better some worse.
Quote
Giving the middle class some money is good,  but most of the bailout will go to those at the top,  yet again,  and will be paid for by the middle class,  yet again. The net wealth gap will increase even further after this.
this sounds like a partisan talking point, I guess it depends on how you define the "top".
Quote
Is anyone else concerned about this?
I do not support dropping helicopter money... central bankers and governments believe their own BS, and think the strategy will work/is working, because they have been getting away with it for over a decade, so far.

Since I am the optimist here I do not expect a total economic collapse (or hope I will die before that happens.).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 13, 2020, 02:29:04 AM
CEO of Smithfield Foods:

"It is impossible to keep our grocery stores stocked if our plants are not running," he said. "These facility closures will also have severe, perhaps disastrous, repercussions for many in the supply chain."

Sioux Falls, SD meat processing plant closes, having half of the state's cases in one meat packaging factory(which supplies 4-5 percent of all U.S. pork). Here's a state without shelter-in-place orders.  Political affiliation? One guess. The rural isolation idea is not working well for those on the right and it's being proven day by day that we're all "connected" in this thing(but they are insistent on being right: pun intended). The stupidity will continue, it would appear. Today is the day for the great re-opening with packed churches that Trump wanted. Let's be Republican and go for it. 'Murica.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 13, 2020, 11:03:09 AM
CEO of Smithfield Foods:

"It is impossible to keep our grocery stores stocked if our plants are not running," he said. "These facility closures will also have severe, perhaps disastrous, repercussions for many in the supply chain."

Sioux Falls, SD meat processing plant closes, having half of the state's cases in one meat packaging factory(which supplies 4-5 percent of all U.S. pork). Here's a state without shelter-in-place orders.  Political affiliation? One guess. The rural isolation idea is not working well for those on the right and it's being proven day by day that we're all "connected" in this thing(but they are insistent on being right: pun intended). The stupidity will continue, it would appear. Today is the day for the great re-opening with packed churches that Trump wanted. Let's be Republican and go for it. 'Murica.
Multiple different meat processing plants have suffered brief shut downs when infected workers are discovered. They generally reopen after a serious scrub and disinfection cycle. Hopefully PPE for workers, and fever screening are involved (although fever screening may not be enough with symptomless spread).

The tight working conditions are not conductive to social distancing.  Food supply seems like a critical resource worthy of extra effort and attention.  Some food processors are not set up to package the final product for retail sales so they are often discarding palatable food in bulk packaging.

======

For a political angle on reopening the economy, imagine if we shut down the all the highways to prevent deadly auto/truck accidents. The first death after the highways are reopened will get blamed on the unlucky official who reopened the highways.  ::)

I expect we will still lose patients, in hopefully more modest numbers after the economy is reopened.  There is still much work to be done. A couple different areas are performing random testing to see how many people were infected without symptoms or only a minor sickness.  This will be important to better understand the community spread. I have heard speculation that the multiple nursing homes that became local hotbeds were likely infected by symptomless workers. 

---
While I have been a little disappointed with the unavailability of n95 masks, and high price now for "dust masks", we are still instructed to wear dust masks. I initially wrote this off as a psychological "feel good" exercise. Because it mainly slows down transmission from infected people. Now connecting a few dots, if people are infected without symptoms they can be inadvertently spreading the virus without knowing it, so wearing dust masks can reduce that transmission vector ( I have some dust masks on order, we'll see if they ever show up. The TP I ordered a few weeks ago is still "delayed").   

Everybody be well and stay safe...

JR

PS: I have mentioned this before but extreme contact tracing seems like cracking the door open to further diminish personal privacy. I think Bill Gates is pushing for a global immunization registry. This seems like another  step down the slippery slope (that we are already on).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 13, 2020, 02:31:45 PM
Quote
if people are infected without symptoms they can be inadvertently spreading the virus without knowing it, so wearing dust masks can reduce that transmission vector

hmmm - only 4 patients, but....   in conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 13, 2020, 02:49:05 PM
hmmm - only 4 patients, but....   in conclusion, both surgical and cotton masks seem to be ineffective in preventing the dissemination of SARS–CoV-2 from the coughs of patients with COVID-19 to the environment and external mask surface.

https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2764367/effectiveness-surgical-cotton-masks-blocking-sars-cov-2-controlled-comparison

That supports the early dismissal of non  n95 masks as being ineffective.

Of course any mask probably makes some beneficial difference however modest, but should not give wearers a false sense of security.

I will wear a dust mask for my weekly shopping trip later this week, mainly to not scare my fellow shoppers. I have no expectation it will protect me from anything other than dust.  8)

ASSuming the health professionals already know (suspected?) this, that reinforces the mask wearing advice as a feel good exercise. If n95 masks were widely available that would be the more logical advice.

Everybody be safe, and "feel good".

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 13, 2020, 04:52:32 PM
That supports the early dismissal of non  n95 masks as being ineffective.

Of course any mask probably makes some beneficial difference however modest, but should not give wearers a false sense of security.

I will wear a dust mask for my weekly shopping trip later this week, mainly to not scare my fellow shoppers. I have no expectation it will protect me from anything other than dust.  8)

ASSuming the health professionals already know (suspected?) this, that reinforces the mask wearing advice as a feel good exercise. If n95 masks were widely available that would be the more logical advice.

Everybody be safe, and "feel good".

JR
No one has said the mask will protect the wearer - it's supposed to catch the possible viral particles and  infected secretions of the wearer and keep them from being spewed into the air to protect the people around him. But I suppose this study notwithstanding,  it will catch those big loogies.

But you're right- it's mostly feelgood.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 13, 2020, 07:02:08 PM
this sounds like a partisan talking point, I guess it depends on how you define the "top".

Why is it partisan? Both parties are complicit in giving corporate bailouts. Capitalism means you take the profits and the losses.  Unfortunately the precedent now is if you are a big enough,  you can take as much risk as you want knowing the government (really the taxpayers)  will cover any losses. This shouldn't be acceptable to anybody.

Airlines have had record profits fur years.  It's a cyclical business in regular times,  the responsible thing would be to save some.  Instead most went to share buybacks. Why should the taxpayer cover their irresponsibilty?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 13, 2020, 10:23:38 PM
The tight working conditions are not conducive to social distancing.
...a cavalier attitude towards the mitigation tool itself is not conducive to containing virus spread(R).
For a political angle on reopening the economy, imagine if we shut down the all the highways to prevent deadly auto/truck accidents. The first death after the highways are reopened will get blamed on the unlucky official who reopened the highways.  ::)
I agree with your point, but there WERE (only)150 vehicular deaths per day in our country(I’m not driving anymore). We were at 2000+ virus attributed deaths per day even with shelter in place mitigation. Imagine the numbers without. Imagine how much lower the number could have been, but then it would have been a “deep state” conspiracy against Cheeto-lini.  :'(

The TP I ordered a few weeks ago is still "delayed”.
Waffle stomp. Urban dictionary.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 14, 2020, 01:12:38 PM
Why is it partisan? Both parties are complicit in giving corporate bailouts. Capitalism means you take the profits and the losses.  Unfortunately the precedent now is if you are a big enough,  you can take as much risk as you want knowing the government (really the taxpayers)  will cover any losses. This shouldn't be acceptable to anybody.
Thanks for explaining capitalism to me.... You appear to be describing "crony capitalism" that I have openly ranted against.

Depending on how we count I have started 3 or 4 businesses (one still operating).  Never got a penny of government support, but while president of a company we applied for a SBA loan (we didn't get it).  This was one of the old school SBA loans where you actually have to pay it back, and the government only serves as partial guarantor on the loan.


Quote
Airlines have had record profits fur years.  It's a cyclical business in regular times,  the responsible thing would be to save some.
airlines have been a crappy business for years (decades?), now with nobody traveling  they are even crappier. I wouldn't mind some creative destruction allowing weak sisters to fail, but apparently government thinks they can save everybody without picking winners and losers.
Quote
Instead most went to share buybacks.
this is being done by way too many companies in almost all industries for way too long. I consider this a financial engineering trick to artificially increase apparent per share earnings by reducing the number of shares outstanding (smaller denominator).  I blame the too easy lending, which right now looks like it is getting even easier, for facilitating this.
Quote
Why should the taxpayer cover their irresponsibilty?
We should not....but why single out airlines? To point fingers at irresponsible behavior how about central banks pumping too much liquidity into markets (since 2007-2008).  The global economy is arguably a bubble with coordinated liquidity injections by all central bankers.   ::)

I am a chronic optimist but this could end badly... I hope it doesn't.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 14, 2020, 01:48:22 PM
...a cavalier attitude towards the mitigation tool itself is not conducive to containing virus spread(R).
Not sure I understand your critique... I was making a factual observation....

FWIW I suspect some food processors have excess capacity with so many restaurants closed, so don't mind taking a short breather to close and disinfect plants here and there.  I expect wider availability of PPE for workers, routine fever monitoring (that may not work), and antibody testing when it becomes available. I consider our food supply chain worthy of preserving.

Speaking of PPE, I just picked up a single discarded glove from my yard by the road, not the typical discarded debris I find, but a sign of the times.  >:(
Quote

I agree with your point, but there WERE (only)150 vehicular deaths per day in our country(I’m not driving anymore). We were at 2000+ virus attributed deaths per day even with shelter in place mitigation. Imagine the numbers without.
this was a metaphor for the lose-lose aspect of any deaths after restarting the economy, being blamed on the restart.
Quote

Imagine how much lower the number could have been, but then it would have been a “deep state” conspiracy against Cheeto-lini.  :'(
Not sure I follow but I have been accused of sloppy thinking...  ::)  (I recognize "Cheeto-lini" as a pejorative reference to POTUS).
Quote

Waffle stomp. Urban dictionary.
I sometime pee in the shower if the spirit moves me, but #2 does not make any sense with a working flush toilet nearby.

I vaguely recall an old movie reference to someone challenged by restroom unavailability, doing something that rude in a YMCA shower.  My worst experience in that regard was attending a Newport Jazz festival back in the 60s. As I recall the local Macdonalds was about the only open restroom with a line hundreds of people long.

Hitting the shower to clear dingle berries is always an option but I am not at risk. I started out this adventure with two rolls of TP in reserve and still have one of those two, plus a package of 4 I purchased a week and a half ago... The web order I placed before I found those 4 rolls is still showing up as "delayed" with prompts for me to cancel the order.  Coincidentally I have seen web ads from that exact same merchant saying they will not run out of TP. I expect this is true, but not proved by my experience with their website. I should probably cancel.

My apologies for TMI in the scatological realm but you took us there with the waffle stomp image.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 14, 2020, 03:16:12 PM
So Trump declared, 
“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's gotta be. It's total."
at yesterday's presser.

While he tries to position himself as dictator, several governors (not all Democrats) are gearing up to give Trump the big middle finger.  These governors seem to have noticed that Trump's motivation for ending lockdown has a lot more to do with making Trump look good than any petty concerns about the welfare of this country's citizens. 

Trump, meanwhile, seems to have taken notice as well, issuing some vague threats about how he'd handle a "mutiny" by the states.  He did not come right out and say, "L'etat c'est moi," but I suspect that has less to do with what he believes and more to do with it being hard for him to pronounce.

And in other news, the state Supreme Court nominee that Wisconsin republicans risked voters' and pollworkers' lives for went down in flames.  Congratulations & continued good health to the intrepid voters of Wisconsin.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 14, 2020, 03:42:47 PM
So Trump declared, 
“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's gotta be. It's total."
at yesterday's presser.

While he tries to position himself as dictator, several governors (not all Democrats) are gearing up to give Trump the big middle finger.  These governors seem to have noticed that Trump's motivation for ending lockdown has a lot more to do with making Trump look good than any petty concerns about the welfare of this country's citizens. 

Trump, meanwhile, seems to have taken notice as well, issuing some vague threats about how he'd handle a "mutiny" by the states.  He did not come right out and say, "L'etat c'est moi," but I suspect that has less to do with what he believes and more to do with it being hard for him to pronounce.

And in other news, the state Supreme Court nominee that Wisconsin republicans risked voters' and pollworkers' lives for went down in flames.  Congratulations & continued good health to the intrepid voters of Wisconsin.
I can't read his (dictator) mind, but am inclined to agree that he does not have constitutional basis or authority to prevent state governors from making local state decisions regarding reopening the state economies.

I suspect there may be some subtext with presumptive VP candidate Cuomo taking advantage of the national media platform to push back against POTUS and appear presidential himself.  (He has already mentioned repealing SALT tax legislation so launching trial balloons for his 2020 platform. )

Of course I am answering speculation with more speculation, so  Caveat lector

JR
 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 14, 2020, 05:11:32 PM
So Trump declared, 
“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's gotta be. It's total."
at yesterday's presser.
Almost time for Godwin's Law.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on April 14, 2020, 06:22:23 PM
Almost time for Godwin's Law.

Time for Peter Principle... :o
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 14, 2020, 07:16:00 PM
Thanks for explaining capitalism to me....

Apologies if it came across the wrong  way.  I'm just disappointed with corporate bailouts yet again.  Wasn't a fan of 2008 either,  or 1998 for that matter.

Share buybacks as a general thing are ok if done responsibly imo. But that's not often the case.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 14, 2020, 07:17:29 PM
So Trump declared, 
“When somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. And that's the way it's gotta be. It's total."
at yesterday's presser.
He's not trying to be a dictator, it's the opening to a negotiation.  He asks for Stalin-esque total power, but will settle for Maduro or Erdogan-like  privileges.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 14, 2020, 08:49:46 PM
Apologies if it came across the wrong  way.  I'm just disappointed with corporate bailouts yet again.  Wasn't a fan of 2008 either,  or 1998 for that matter.
no problem... we  probably agree more than disagree.
Quote
Share buybacks as a general thing are ok if done responsibly imo. But that's not often the case.
Share buy-backs are a return of capital to share holders so generally OK, but can be irresponsible if they borrow money, they shouldn't. Dividends are taxed, share buy-backs are not taxed until shares are sold.

That said for years IBM was the poster boy for using share buy-backs to manipulate their sagging P/E.... Most serious investors understand the math and look at all the numbers, or more than just the one.

JR   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on April 14, 2020, 09:24:55 PM
Quote
Coincidentally I have seen web ads from that exact same merchant saying they will not run out of TP

I have been to the grocery store 3 times in the last 3 days and found TP in the 3 different grocery stores each time.   This is now a non crisis for now . Today when I went in I found the tp and decidedly not to buy to let the next person who needs it have the opportunity.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Brian Roth on April 14, 2020, 09:49:42 PM
As an Olde Phart (sort of an Olde Hippie.....so I lean waaay libertarian) in these bizarre times I read multiple sources to triangulate.  This article shocked me.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/trey-hollingsworth-coronavirus/index.html

Wow......

Let's have millions dead so what's left of the economy can stumble along
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 14, 2020, 11:35:21 PM
I have been to the grocery store 3 times in the last 3 days and found TP in the 3 different grocery stores each time.   This is now a non crisis for now . Today when I went in I found the tp and decidedly not to buy to let the next person who needs it have the opportunity.
Maybe you shouldn't go to grocery stores every day... Back decades ago I used to buy groceries every day. Now I use my time more efficiently.    ::)

I stopped looking for TP after I found some almost 2 weeks ago. I did not cancel my web order from before I found some (yet, but probably will).

TP NEVER  WAS A REAL CRISIS, sorry if I perpetuated that media generated perception in any way. This perception is apparently shared by many, thanks to the "sky is falling" media.  This is exactly like when media reports rumors of a gasoline shortage, causing everybody to top off their auto gas tanks, creating the exact short term shortage they reported. 

Now n95 masks actually appear to be in short supply (but I have been accused of sloppy thinking).  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on April 15, 2020, 12:55:31 AM
Quote
Maybe you shouldn't go to grocery stores every day...

Just how it worked out not my normal plan .  We are living in the country and traveling between the city on weekend (Easter) with daughter and then back to the country to use acres of social distancing.   

Got my mask gloves and washing clothes when I get home.  My phone doesn’t recognize my fingerprint anymore from washing my hands and the dried out skin.

I love working in the shop barn on things that need done around the place. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 15, 2020, 01:48:48 AM
Quote
This article shocked me.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/trey-hollingsworth-coronavirus/index.html
That's the ugly face of neoliberalism. Voices like that can be heard in other Western countries too, not just in the US. -- Proponents are mostly "younger" politicans.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 09:09:06 AM
As an Olde Phart (sort of an Olde Hippie.....so I lean waaay libertarian) in these bizarre times I read multiple sources to triangulate.  This article shocked me.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/trey-hollingsworth-coronavirus/index.html

Wow......

Let's have millions dead so what's left of the economy can stumble along

Your president seems to agree that the oil companies' profits are more important than people dying.

It's useless, of course, in the age of electric vehicles. People all over the world are finally seeing what billions of cars do to air quality, the climate and even the weather. Let's hope they still remember when Corona is a thing of the past...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 15, 2020, 10:30:30 AM
So here in Georgia, I saw a rather unsettling article on ajc.com about underreporting of cases and deaths in nursing homes and extended care facilities here in the state.  Data collection is still woefully inadequate (Republicans have for years done a nice job of cutting govt social services to the bone, which is almost certainly part of the problem.)  But even worse, testing is still woefully inadequate.  Even in spots like nursing homes, where the need for testing is extremely pressing, it's still a struggle to get access to enough testing.  Our half-bright governor is starting to push to open up testing to a bare minimum level--at least now you won't need a note from a doctor to get a test.  But the range of people allowed to get a test is still very narrow.

And test & track?  Are you kidding me? 

That's where we are.  As Trump pushes furiously to "reopen" the country, as Republican agitators around the country begin organizing anti-quarantine rallies, we're still so far from ready to go back to business as usual that it's laughable (and not in a funny way.) 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 15, 2020, 10:45:50 AM
As an Olde Phart (sort of an Olde Hippie.....so I lean waaay libertarian) in these bizarre times I read multiple sources to triangulate.  This article shocked me.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/politics/trey-hollingsworth-coronavirus/index.html

Wow......

Let's have millions dead so what's left of the economy can stumble along
Reaction to suggestions like this depends on where you are standing... Seniors in the target group at risk for dying or serious illness are understandably not receptive, younger people who would likely benefit from scraping off a bunch of seniors citizens could embrace it (they could move out of the basement and up into the master bedroom).

We have long been thwarting natural selection by supporting the weak and infirm among us. The world would survive if this was allowed to run its course with vaccines developed at normal speed (after years not months).

The auto companies building ventilators can't do it fast enough to help much now, so this is mostly rebuilding the national stockpiles. This is a good thing for next time, and there will be a next time.  N95 masks reportedly were depleted by H1n1 outbreak and not adequately restocked.

Philosophically I can see his point, while it seems a little selfish, but that is human nature to be selfish. Civilization is based on appreciating a greater good (like preventing avoidable deaths) and making personal sacrifices for that greater good.

JR

PS: If you find CNN shocking maybe don't go there....  This is all probably a little shocking to people who think government is the solution for everything. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 15, 2020, 12:59:04 PM
  This is all probably a little shocking to people who think government is the solution for everything.

But this is exactly the sort of thing govt should be involved in solving--it's what most sane people, right or left, would want their govt to excel at.  This is why Trump's numerous missteps (and the hobbling of the response caused by GOP malice towards the institutions they are ostensibly running) are so glaring, maddening, and unforgivable. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 15, 2020, 01:26:08 PM
. The world would survive if this was allowed to run its course with vaccines developed at normal speed (after years not months).


Have you given much thought to what that would look like?  New York has a diagnosed infection rate of something like 1%.  This virus has the potential to infect as many as 70% of the planet's population. 

So imagine if  the US hit  10% infection rate in a short period of time.  30 million people.  You'd see a complete collapse of medical systems.  The fatality rate from COVID would double or triple due to lack of medical care, and other treatable medical conditions would go untreated, causing further loss of life.  I would expect looting, maybe riots.  The global financial system would be a shambles. 

So yeah, the world would survive.  But it'd be nothing like the world we have right now, and it would take decades (or more) to put it back together. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 01:36:30 PM
The greedy certainly aren't helping in any way...

the AirSense 10—the world's most widely used CPAP, costs 700$. Its manufacturer, ResMed, says the device only functions as a "continuous positive airway pressure machine", used to treat sleep apnea. It does this by funneling air into a mask. ResMed says the device can't work as a bilevel positive airway pressure device, which is a more advanced machine that pushes air into a mask and then pulls it back out.

https://www.resmed.com/en-us/sleep-apnea/cpap-parts-support/sleep-apnea-full-products-list/cpap-machines/airsense-10/

However, Trammell Hudson, famed security reaercher and hacker, pulled the firmware and found out everything needed is already present in the firmware...

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/04/firmware-jailbreak-lets-low-cost-medical-devices-act-like-ventilators/

Quote
To demonstrate his findings, Hudson on Tuesday is releasing a patch that he says unlocks the hidden capabilities buried deep inside the AirSense 10. The patch is dubbed Airbreak in a nod to jailbreaks that hobbyists use to remove technical barriers Apple developers erect inside iPhones and iPads. Whereas jailbreaks unlock functions that allow the installation of unauthorized apps and the accessing of log files and forensic data, Airbreak allows the AirSense 10 to work as a bilevel positive airway pressure machine, a device that many people refer to as a BiPAP.

Another case of manufacturers swindling buyers out of their money?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 01:43:37 PM
My reading list is filling up with this stuff...

Quote
In the wake of reports last month that four US senators sold stocks shortly after a classified briefing on January 24 about the risk posed by the novel coronavirus, Timothy Carambat, a mechanical and software engineer, created a website to make stock sales by every senator more visible.

In an email to The Register, Carambat, who runs a design firm based in Covington, Louisiana, called Industrial Object, explained he was motivated to create Senate Stock Watcher after news broke that Senators Richard Burr (R-NC), Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), James Inhofe (R-OK), and Kelly Loeffler (R-GA) had dumped stocks before most people in America understood the implications of the outbreak. It is illegal for senators to buy and sell shares using non-public information.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/13/senate_stock_sales/

https://senatestockwatcher.com/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 15, 2020, 01:48:30 PM
My reading list is filling up with this stuff...

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/13/senate_stock_sales/

https://senatestockwatcher.com/
The legislators have passed rules prohibiting profiting from non-public information, then with a wink and nod, gutted the penalty/enforcement. Effectively having the foxes guard the hen house...

Just ask yourself how these pukes become millionaires on legislator paychecks?

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 02:00:46 PM
And the madness keeps flowing...

Quote
San Diego police are continuing to ticket homeless San Diegans and compel them to move elsewhere despite federal guidance discouraging law enforcement from disrupting homeless camps and potentially fueling the spread of coronavirus, and a City Council resolution encouraging the mayor to consider relaxing crackdowns on those sleeping in their cars.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention last month encouraged cities not to clear homeless camps unless they can move those living there into housing.

https://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/public-safety/police-are-still-citing-the-homeless-despite-cdc-and-council-guidance/

While every idiot can see the danger in displacing the homeless, the orange genius is giving away the Moon:

https://phys.org/news/2020-04-trump-moon-asteroids.html

And as if that wasn't enough, according to the Washington Post, relieve checks have been delayed, because the orange genius wants his name printed on them.

Everyone can clearly see what a Great! Leader! this guy is. Always on the Frontline for his people!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 15, 2020, 02:43:23 PM
Lansing, MI:

Currently a protest against the state stay at home order is occurring.  Prevalent in almost every camera shot is the American flag, MAGA hats, Trump 2020 flags and the confederate flag. The last time I refreshed myself on the Civil war, the confederate flag is a symbol of treason... and I personally don't collect and display losing lottery tickets(because I LOST). Looks like all the woketards are staying home. Why is the stupidity always leaning to the the right?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 15, 2020, 02:57:24 PM

And as if that wasn't enough, according to the Washington Post, relieve checks have been delayed, because the orange genius wants his name printed on them.


If this is true, many people who voted for Trump, or are considering to do so, can go hungry for a while so they can see what their decisions do for the American people. Pain is the only eye opener.

On another note, hooray for Wisconsin. The Republicans lost that Supreme Court seat and democrats had to put their lives in jeopardy to do so. Leaning to the right is wrong.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 15, 2020, 06:06:54 PM
This is what happens when Congress votes on something they don't read (or maybe they did and didn't care).  The few congressman who wanted to actually debate the stinulus bill got a lot of flac for it.

Part of the stimulus bill is a huge tax cut for the rich.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/shaharziv/2020/04/14/why-are-rich-americans-getting-17-million-stimulus-checks/amp/

The 2 trillion bill is about $6k per person cost.  Take out the $1200 check and the average middle class person is paying  $4800 to help bailout irresponsible corporations and reduce rich peoples taxes. Certainly a raw deal.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 15, 2020, 08:12:43 PM
Trump's twitter feed:

"I love Michigan, one of the reasons we are doing such a GREAT job for them during this horrible Pandemic. Yet your Governor, Gretchen 'Half' Whitmer is way in over her head, she doesn't have a clue. Likes blaming everyone for her own ineptitude! #MAGA"

Maybe that has something to do with some of the "attendees".
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 08:43:06 PM
It's getting wilder by the hour:

https://thebaffler.com/latest/essential-now-deportable-later-de-la-hoz

Quote
Essential Now, Deportable Later...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 08:47:55 PM
If this is true, many people who voted for Trump, or are considering to do so, can go hungry for a while so they can see what their decisions do for the American people. Pain is the only eye opener.

The check in the mail will be late. The 80 million or so who registered with the IRS for direct payment might also have to wait, as US banks can't seem to handle the traffic:

https://www.cnet.com/personal-finance/online-banking-struggling-as-people-check-for-coronavirus-stimulus-checks
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 15, 2020, 08:57:21 PM
It's not certain if the delayed check story from the Washington Post is accurate. It seems the IRS is denying it now, after confirming it to the Post. The checks will however go out end of April. Don't know if that's late?

https://www.npr.org/2020/04/15/835105999/report-adding-trumps-name-to-checks-will-delay-them-irs-says-they-re-on-schedule
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 15, 2020, 09:51:20 PM
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis(R) just declared WWE(yes, wrestling) an essential business.

You can't make this stuff up.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 15, 2020, 10:31:16 PM
...and now Trump is threatening to adjourn Congress to fill open positions that would normally require a vote to approve the nominee. It's his administration that vowed to "deconstruct the administrative state". They gutted many agencies and left positions open that they are now being criticized for. Now Trump is using the COVID-19 crisis to push through and finally fill these positions with his choices, unopposed and without oversight or approval. Republicans are dirty cheaters(Gorsuch, need I say more?).If this starts to occur and the people no longer have any say, how does this ever get resolved. This, in my opinion, would be the start of the end of our country. What do people do when they have no say. History tells us that the answer is bad.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: squarewave on April 16, 2020, 01:18:13 AM
Lansing, MI:

Currently a protest against the state stay at home order is occurring.
Honestly as long as they're respectful of folks who are not participating, then it seems to me that it should be ok if they're just hanging out with each other. Some will get sick. It might be born out of stupidity but they will reach a local herd-immunity sooner. It doesn't look like enough to overwhelm the hospitals but I suppose it will be awkward when they end up in the hospital looking for help from the doctors they claim are lying.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 16, 2020, 06:50:05 AM
Quote
Some will get sick. It might be born out of stupidity but they will reach a local herd-immunity sooner. It doesn't look like enough to overwhelm the hospitals...
And that latter is exactly what could happen, has happened, and is happening elsewhere.


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 16, 2020, 11:57:04 AM
And that latter is exactly what could happen, has happened, and is happening elsewhere.
We are getting closer to anti-body testing so we can gauge herd immunity. This seems critical path for safely reopening the economy (in my judgement).

JR

PS: I hope the partisan enmity apparent here is evidence of reduced fear, not increased.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 16, 2020, 01:43:58 PM
Trump's name on checks:

"Oh thank you Mr. President for sending me money. I'll certainly vote for you."

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 16, 2020, 02:13:15 PM
PS: I hope the partisan enmity apparent here is evidence of reduced fear, not increased.

https://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2020/04/15/devos-group-right-wing-fringe-organization-threaten-public-health

The party I affiliate with does not pay to push people to the streets to protest common sense in the midst of a pandemic, nor does it force voters in major cities to cram all voters into 4% of all available voting locations in order to create fear and win(which they fortunately did not). The partisan enmity that absolutely exists is created out of lack of logic and contempt towards those who push hate, fear and exploit single issue voters. I can't seem to find documentation showing polar opposition of the stances I have provided examples for.  Please convince people not to root for the bad guy/evil wrestler... Oops, partisan enmity caused by real life observation.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 16, 2020, 05:52:44 PM
I understand delays in creating vaccines and even anti-body tests, but why the shortage in N95 masks? This is certainly a mature technology and widely used across multiple industries other than medical care.

Now that some governors are instructing all citizens to wear masks, why not have effective masks more widely available? 

======

I wore my dust mask, left over from yard work today on my once a week shopping trip. Availability of some items was still a little sketchy, and inexplicably Walmart decided to strip and clean the floors this morning blocking off several aisles I wanted to shop from. I ended up going to a second food store nearby and still didn't get everything I on my list, but I'll live until next week to shop again. 

Funny if I try to order the items I needed from walmart's website they say only available at the store.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 16, 2020, 06:10:01 PM
The N95 shortage is probably 1 of 2 things.  Usage rate spiked exceeding regular production capacity.  Or there is an issue somewhere along the supply chain,  hoarding,  or unscrupulous people stockpiling in order to price gouge.

I used to just buy them at the hardware store for dust related activities.  Never knew they were also used in medical.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 16, 2020, 06:55:09 PM
I mentioned before wondering about a diy mask using those 9 or 10 rated Air Conditioner filters...They say block virus carriers??

Looks like there may be videos online atm now that I'm looking.....

I picked one up a while ago just in case....It has some reinforcement in it so not sure how it would go///
My hepa rated Hoover vacuum cleaner bags are rated to catch 5 micron particles (dust-allergens).  The actual virus is much smaller than 5 microns, but the water droplets the virus generally travels in are about that size.

I haven't started cutting up my unused vacuum cleaner bag (yet) but today at Walmart doing my weekly grocery shopping I tried to buy more... only found a generic walmart bag....  I took it home and it doesn't mention hepa so probably isn't.

I still think proper n95 masks should be more widely available.

How about inventing a better mask?

JR
 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 16, 2020, 11:26:59 PM
...and now Trump is threatening to adjourn Congress to fill open positions that would normally require a vote to approve the nominee. It's his administration that vowed to "deconstruct the administrative state". They gutted many agencies and left positions open that they are now being criticized for. Now Trump is using the COVID-19 crisis to push through and finally fill these positions with his choices, unopposed and without oversight or approval. Republicans are dirty cheaters(Gorsuch, need I say more?).If this starts to occur and the people no longer have any say, how does this ever get resolved. This, in my opinion, would be the start of the end of our country. What do people do when they have no say. History tells us that the answer is bad.
You should Google the latest Federalist Society nutjob that just got rammed into a Federal judge position in Kentucky.  The next SC seat pick no doubt - Justin Walker.

Apparently 'originalism' only applies when you need a justification for your preferred outcome.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 16, 2020, 11:36:01 PM
Republicans are dirty cheaters
i can argue Democrats are the same all day long!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 17, 2020, 01:43:16 AM
Both parties have long ago sold out the people.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 17, 2020, 10:41:54 AM
i can argue Democrats are the same all day long!

Please post in context...(Gorsuch, need I say more). We can move on to gerrymandering or the fact that Wyoming(560,000) has the same number of senate seats as California(39,000,000) and Mitch McConnell(R) broke constitutional norms by not even hearing SCOTUS nominee by the president. Instead of brandishing AR-15s outside the Michigan State courthouse, the entire country should gave been on the lawn of the Capitol building in DC with their firearms. For some reason
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 17, 2020, 10:44:38 AM
...democrats don't pull this sh*t. SHAME ON the USa. Seriously, guns at the Capitol in Michigan. What is wrong with these Republicans? Someone is looking for a civil war, and it's not the left.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 17, 2020, 11:00:17 AM
Maybe we need another thread just about typical team politics, instead of COVID related politics... 

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 17, 2020, 12:53:42 PM
Maybe we need another thread just about typical team politics, instead of COVID related politics... 

JR

...now thread related. WTF is going on with the President and the gems that vote for him?  This behavior will incite violence. The right is wrong. Speak up, speak out... and you don't need a gun in your hand to protest public safety health measures.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 17, 2020, 12:55:20 PM
...convince me otherwise.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 17, 2020, 01:43:59 PM
...convince me otherwise.
I can't so I won't waste mine and the rest of the forum's time trying.
======
OK I will start another thread for team politics talking points, to hopefully keep this thread relatively clean. 

I have long been interested in the strategies and tools used to marshal support and mold public influence, I am not interested in wrestling mano a mano over the specific hot button talking points.

Of course keep doing whatever floats your boat, but i will try to herd the kittens on the WWW once again.

JR


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 17, 2020, 03:45:05 PM
I can't so I won't waste mine and the rest of the forum's time trying.
JR
So don't - no one's mind was ever changed on an internet forum, only by the  vicissitudes of real life.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 17, 2020, 03:58:41 PM
So don't - no one's mind was ever changed on an internet forum, only by the  vicissitudes of real life.
Businesses and especially politicians spend a lot of money and effort trying to influence sentiment via social media...

Thanks, I just said I won't so telling me don't is superfluous.

=======

Back on topic I will feel better about the state of things when I can again purchase N95 masks... right now they are restricted to health professionals and first responders. These should be widely available for professionals especially and any who want them.

---

Apparently there are a number of fake covid 19 antibody tests being sold to consumers.  FDA opened the floodgates to get more testing but apparently some tests don't work.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 17, 2020, 04:58:10 PM
Businesses and especially politicians spend a lot of money and effort trying to influence sentiment via social media...

Thanks, I just said I won't so telling me don't is superfluous.

=======

Back on topic I will feel better about the state of things when I can again purchase N95 masks... right now they are restricted to health professionals and first responders. These should be widely available for professionals especially and any who want them.

---

Apparently there are a number of fake covid 19 antibody tests being sold to consumers.  FDA opened the floodgates to get more testing but apparently some tests don't work.

JR

Sorry, I meant don't bother with a new thread, but after I posted this I saw you already did. Carry on.  :)

Regarding the masks, I have several of the N95's of different configurations and other surgical masks that I bought at HFT years ago for sanding. I don't think any mask makes an adequate seal with the face to avoid mixing with some air from the sides so I suppose they may help avoid viral inhalation, maybe enough to significantly decrease the viral load but not to completely avoid exposure. Just my experiential opinion.

As far as the tests, none has been approved in reality by the FDA - they've only given Emergency Use Authorization:

The Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) authority allows FDA to help strengthen the nation’s public health protections against CBRN threats by facilitating the availability and use of MCMs needed during public health emergencies.

Under section 564 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FD&C Act), the FDA Commissioner may allow unapproved medical products or unapproved uses of approved medical products to be used in an emergency to diagnose, treat, or prevent serious or life-threatening diseases or conditions caused by CBRN threat agents when there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives.


So I don't know if any of the tests out there are adequate regarding sensitivity and specificity. And as several medical consultants have noted, a bad test is probably worse than no test at all.

Regarding antibodies, I don't know if any of the test antibodies, or even the antibodies produced by recovered individuals are neutralizing antibodies - that is, antibodies that bind to a site on the virus that prevent it from entering a cell and replicating, or if they are just antibodies to other sites on the virus and don't prevent disease. Time will tell.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 17, 2020, 06:11:56 PM
So how is the rightwing astoturf orgs 'stirring up these stupid protests, and Trump's explicit support of said protests, any better than the preachers  who insisted on holding Easter services in violation of shelter in place rules?  What kind of a leader is a president who actively works against the states' governors in their efforts to protect their citizens and reopen their economies in a safe and timely fashion. 

Trump is morally and temperamentally unfit to lead this nation.  He's shown this quite clearly over the past week.  He should have been impeached but Republicans are too craven and self-serving to know what's right anymore.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 17, 2020, 07:02:36 PM
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/17/senate-democrats-mike-pence-conference-call-192868 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/17/senate-democrats-mike-pence-conference-call-192868)

Basically, the White House wants to "reopen" the economy, but they don't have the testing capacity, don't have a plan for managing the data, don't have a target for when they'll have testing or how much they will actually need. 

Cart before the horse.  Not to mention the stunning incompetence.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: mtw on April 17, 2020, 07:36:19 PM
My hepa rated Hoover vacuum cleaner bags are rated to catch 5 micron particles (dust-allergens).  The actual virus is much smaller than 5 microns, but the water droplets the virus generally travels in are about that size.

I haven't started cutting up my unused vacuum cleaner bag (yet) but today at Walmart doing my weekly grocery shopping I tried to buy more... only found a generic walmart bag....  I took it home and it doesn't mention hepa so probably isn't.

I still think proper n95 masks should be more widely available.

How about inventing a better mask?

JR
 

Just a friendly reminder that HEPA filters contain borosilicate glass fibers. I've seen "tutorials" describing how to make one, they all involve some sort of cutting or opening up of the filter itself.  :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 17, 2020, 07:38:49 PM
...convince me otherwise.

In keeping with this thread one only needs to look at the recent "stimulus " package.  Both parties tried to sneakily put in things to further their agendas.  In the end both parties overwhelmingly supported a package that predominantly benefits the top earners.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 17, 2020, 07:41:38 PM
So don't - no one's mind was ever changed on an internet forum, only by the  vicissitudes of real life.

Real life.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 17, 2020, 07:56:41 PM
..."very fine people on both sides". The thread is titled COVID politics and this is a demonstration regarding said issue. If something else is going on here, it should be acknowledged and spoken out about, because I don't and wouldn't dress like that going to a protest because it is an obviously antagonistic behavior. I guess that's what separates left from right. If this displeases anyone, they could speak amongst themselves within their own subset of society and discourage the reinforcement of a stereotype... or not.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on April 17, 2020, 09:13:22 PM
Quote
Someone is looking for a civil war, and it's not the left.
 

"Someones looking to get electrocuted and it's not the left lead on the plug!"  -Left lead on the plug
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 18, 2020, 09:44:57 AM
"Women leaders are doing a disproportionately great job at handling the pandemic," says this article.

True food for thought. Read, compare with what you read, and decide for yourselves.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/asia/women-government-leaders-coronavirus-hnk-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/asia/women-government-leaders-coronavirus-hnk-intl/index.html)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 18, 2020, 10:17:35 AM
"Women leaders are doing a disproportionately great job at handling the pandemic," says this article.

True food for thought. Read, compare with what you read, and decide for yourselves.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/asia/women-government-leaders-coronavirus-hnk-intl/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/14/asia/women-government-leaders-coronavirus-hnk-intl/index.html)
I have always been a proponent of women being in charge. I've asked for employees in leadership positions to be women at my workplaces in the past. Seems that the lack of testosterone and often innate nurturing characteristics produce well thought out results and prevent a lot of unnecessary stupidity. I would guess we'd be better off with a woman than Cheeto-lini, but we can't have a woman in charge who organizes child porn in the basement of pizzerias.  :o
Unfortunately this article is dead on point, but there are those on the right that won't even compare the job of "their boy" to these women because CNN is a "biased" news source. You can't fix stupid. Thank you for posting a link of how things SHOULD be handled during a crisis like this.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 18, 2020, 10:54:44 AM
Almost time for Godwin's Law.
Since you brought it up... I'm guessing these aren't libtards out for a walk at the protest.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 18, 2020, 11:10:19 AM
Real life.
While I cannot read minds, they appear to be protesting the governor's overly restrictive shut down as fascist.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 18, 2020, 11:57:41 AM
While I cannot read minds, they appear to be protesting the governor's overly restrictive shut down as fascist.

JR

This Is a POLITICAL rally, not some organic uprising.  I'm surprised you didn't notice that, John, since you so loathe politics.  In Michigan, the rally was supported by a right wing astroturf group that is tied to betsy Devos' family (you know, the ones who got rich off a pyramid scam?)  Billionaires are more than happy to shove a few hundred little people into harm's way to score some political points. 

If Republican rabble weren't brainwashed idiots, they'd be protesting the lack of testing, and the horrible delays and lack of planning that have caused said lack.  Trump is the idiot who's made all this worse.  Democratic governors are targeted bacause they took a sh!t on Trump's plan to usurp governors' power.  That is really why they're protesting--Trump had a hissy fit. 

TESTING, TESTING, TESTING.  I've been saying that for a month and a half at least.  Even you've been saying it, John.  That's the key to easing up on the shelter in place.  And Trump, not the governors, is lagging mightily, STILL, in this area. 

All the Republican [email protected] need to go to DC and tell Trump to get his @ss in gear.  This is squarely on him, and he's done a horrible job as a leader. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 18, 2020, 12:00:25 PM
This Is a POLITICAL rally, not some organic uprising.  I'm surprised you didn't notice that, John, since you so loathe politics.  In Michigan, the rally was supported by a right wing astroturf group that is tied to betsy Devos' family (you know, the ones who got rich off a pyramid scam?)  Billionaires are more than happy to shove a few hundred little people into harm's way to score some political points. 

If Republican rabble weren't brainwashed idiots, they'd be protesting the lack of testing, and the horrible delays and lack of planning that have caused said lack.  Trump is the idiot who's made all this worse.  Democratic governors are targeted bacause they took a sh!t on Trump's plan to usurp governors' power.  That is really why they're protesting--Trump had a hissy fit. 

TESTING, TESTING, TESTING.  I've been saying that for a month and a half at least.  Even you've been saying it, John.  That's the key to easing up on the shelter in place.  And Trump, not the governors, is lagging mightily, STILL, in this area. 

All the Republican [email protected] need to go to DC and tell Trump to get his @ss in gear.  This is squarely on him, and he's done a horrible job as a leader.
Just more of my dumbass sloppy thinking....   ::)

Clean you hands and stop touching your face...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 18, 2020, 10:28:45 PM
I am not ready to call foul yet.......BUT China has recently instituted new export regulations delaying shipments of PPE from China involving important health supplies... Coincidence? Maybe but perhaps a subtle negotiation over being blamed for this cluster fsk.

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 19, 2020, 07:45:16 AM
I see that Chinese behaviour as a warning that the party is still boss in China and doesn't want others to interfere.

Bad news for Taiwan, that's been cut off from getting WHO data. And while the US fleet had to withdraw from the South Chinese sea, because of infections aboard the main carrier, the Chinese are moving in. They "donated" about a billion dollars to build a trade port in Indonesia. Of course, it's also a marine port. Chinese marine, that is.

It's not a confrontational policy, more of a silent, slow take-over. Instead of showing muscle, they are just trying to show a friendly face to those who are in need. Like Africa, fi. Seems to be working.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 19, 2020, 07:52:12 AM
If the world had any sense they would recognize Taiwan as an independent nation and learn from them.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: DaveP on April 19, 2020, 08:48:58 AM
I worked as a volunteer at a hospital in the Congo  from 75-77.  ( it was called Zaire then)

There was no plastic PPE back then, but plenty of cotton gowns and masks that were sterilised in high pressure boilers powered by paraffin and then re-used.  I guess this was not too far removed from what happened back in 1918.

The problems we are suffering today are two-fold:-

1)   Over reliance on a throwaway plastic culture.

2)  Over reliance on Chinese manufacturing.

I hope the West wakes up to this and maintains some strategic manufacturing in-house in future.   I always thought it was a short term fix to buy cheap from China, now look where we are :'(

DaveP
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 19, 2020, 11:09:44 AM
I see that Chinese behaviour as a warning that the party is still boss in China and doesn't want others to interfere.

Bad news for Taiwan, that's been cut off from getting WHO data. And while the US fleet had to withdraw from the South Chinese sea, because of infections aboard the main carrier, the Chinese are moving in. They "donated" about a billion dollars to build a trade port in Indonesia. Of course, it's also a marine port. Chinese marine, that is.

It's not a confrontational policy, more of a silent, slow take-over. Instead of showing muscle, they are just trying to show a friendly face to those who are in need. Like Africa, fi. Seems to be working.
China patiently plays a long game extending their influence all around the world, the "belt and road" program is a debt trap that many poor nations take in hook line and sinker.  Africa is already struggling with high debt levels, China is offering more of the same.

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 19, 2020, 11:32:04 AM
If the world had any sense they would recognize Taiwan as an independent nation and learn from them.
I have been paying attention to history long enough to remember it was originally called Formosa. It has long been a thorn in mainland  china's side... they were ticked off before WWII when Japan took over the short lived republic there.

Communist china believes that Taiwan belongs to them  and really does not like it when other countries recognize Taiwan as a separate nation and give it military defensive support. 

Quote from: wiki
The United States bi-partisan position is that it doesn't recognize the PRC's claim over Taiwan, and considers Taiwan's status as unsettled. All of this ambiguity has resulted in the United States constantly walking on a diplomatic tightrope with regard to cross strait relations.
The reports coming from Taiwan about COVID19 conflicting with mainland china's, resulted in more diplomatic dancing for the western powers.

The WHO is pretty much a puppet of communist china so not allowed to recognize Taiwan by its masters.

Hong Kong can serve as an example of China's long term intentions (hint: not freedom of self rule). This likewise is playing out in slow motion, while the world is distracted elsewhere.

JR

PS: We agree again...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 19, 2020, 11:48:44 AM
It's not a debt trap. That would be US style. The Chinese really "donate" the funds. Of course, they get exclusive rights to some things in exchange, so it's not without strings, but still...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 19, 2020, 11:58:37 AM
The WHO is pretty much a puppet of communist china so not allowed to recognize Taiwan by its masters.

That's certainly not true. You could say the same thing about any other Int'l organisation, like Interpol, or UNO.

Just like all other players, China wants influence in all of these organisations. But they are very much aware that if they would dominate in one of these organisations, that would render them useless.

And, yes, Taiwan is between a rock and a hard place. But let's not blame Gibraltar on the Spanish, shall we?

I can understand both sides. Taiwan wants recognition as an independent state. And China doesn't like that, obviously. But I don't think the Chinese communist party would risk going to war to incorporate Taiwan. It's an insult to the party, but they don't need Taiwan.

The US needs China, as they are finding out now. But China needs the US too. It's just a question which one of those needs the other one the most...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 19, 2020, 12:01:53 PM
It's not a debt trap. That would be US style. The Chinese really "donate" the funds. Of course, they get exclusive rights to some things in exchange, so it's not without strings, but still...
A study of chinese culture does not suggest they are doing this out of altruism...

Of course I cannot read their minds so perhaps overnight they became generous to distant people for no reason, perhaps just some more of my sloppy thinking.  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 19, 2020, 03:15:46 PM
A study of chinese culture does not suggest they are doing this out of altruism...

Of course not, John. Money equals power, equals time. And since most of us would like to live forever, we're all susceptible...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 20, 2020, 11:23:36 AM
Baecause Trump couldn't get his hands on any smallpox blankets: 

A single deportation flight to Guatemala by the U.S. government saw more than 75% of the migrants later test positive for novel coronavirus, the country's health minister told reporters on Tuesday......{L}ast Friday, President Donald Trump ... signed a memorandum to authorize sanctions against any country that doesn't accept removals from the U.S.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 20, 2020, 11:29:19 AM
One more note:  Last night I saw the Repoublican governor of Maryland call Trump "delusional" on testing.  See, JR, you can still be conservative without drinking the Trump Kool-Aid.  All the cool Republicans are doing it--why not just give it a try?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 20, 2020, 11:38:40 AM
One more note:  Last night I saw the Repoublican governor of Maryland call Trump "delusional" on testing.  See, JR, you can still be conservative without drinking the Trump Kool-Aid.  All the cool Republicans are doing it--why not just give it a try?
Stop trolling me personally...  I hope you don't think you are accomplishing anything.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 20, 2020, 12:21:03 PM
I hope you don't think you are accomplishing anything.

JR

Yeah.  You'd think I'd know better by now.  The preponderance of evidence suggests you're correct--what kind of fool am I?

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 20, 2020, 04:03:28 PM


Hong Kong can serve as an example of China's long term intentions (hint: not freedom of self rule). This likewise is playing out in slow motion, while the world is distracted elsewhere.

JR


I must have felt a disturbance in the force... Hong Kong police just arrested more than dozen major pro-democracy leaders. Apparently under instructions from mainland China to squash the democracy protests while the world is paying attention elsewhere...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/18/world/asia/hong-kong-arrests.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/18/world/asia/hong-kong-arrests.html)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on April 20, 2020, 06:36:04 PM
Probably also hoping it doesn't get in the news now, because of Corona...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 21, 2020, 05:19:56 PM
So Donald Trump's big "hunch" is turning out not to be the wonder drug he promoted it as:  https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2 (https://apnews.com/a5077c7227b8eb8b0dc23423c0bbe2b2)

You'd think that by now certain people in this country would figure out that we're better off trusting science over Donald Trump's "hunches,"  but that seems highly unlikely.  Cultists gonna cult, I suppose. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on April 21, 2020, 06:29:00 PM
On leaders under any emergency: The personality cult can also take the form of an anti-personality cult.  Drumpf was a voted-in symptom of a much bigger problem, which is the loss of the American mythos that we produce excellent and extraordinary people, and those excellent people naturally rise into positions of leadership by virtue of those qualities.   It's a natural evolution of unrestricted capitalism that those with the capital eventually buy their way into positions they are unqualified for.
Tulsi had a lot of positive leadership traits, and she got pushed out for not having the money to buy the blessings of the dnc.  It's not the personalities at the top we should be obsessed about,  it's the payola system of restricting people's choice of candidates that should be the focus of our ridicule/memes/attempts to influence future positive outcomes.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 21, 2020, 07:17:43 PM
Tulsi had a lot of positive leadership traits, and she got pushed out for not having the money to buy the blessings of the dnc.

Imo it was more she was pushed aside because both sides of  the political establishment didn't want her bringing up unpleasant truths that threatened the status quo.

The fact that most of the political elite didn't like her indicates she was probably on to something.

I think she was good candidate.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on April 22, 2020, 04:00:12 AM
I agree with you 12AX, however "she was pushed aside because..."   

Oh you're willing to donate 10m to the NDC, CPC and, ESSC?  How generous of you Tulsi! I'll  pass the word on to our family of congressional organization heads. I'm sure I can get them to reconsider, given the importance of your 'commitments' should you maintain a presence in the caucus.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 22, 2020, 11:30:48 AM
I love it when politicians say they follow the science.... reminds me of George Orwells "newspeak".

====

Not to get into local politics for other locals but https://nypost.com/2020/02/11/former-cnbc-anchor-michelle-caruso-cabrera-to-take-on-aoc-in-primary/ (https://nypost.com/2020/02/11/former-cnbc-anchor-michelle-caruso-cabrera-to-take-on-aoc-in-primary/)   A well know former CNBC (business news) anchor has announced she is challenging AOC.  Michelle already has a 3 letter nickname (MCC) so will be the contest between AOC and MCC.....

I worry she is probably too conservative to get elected in NYC, but it would be refreshing to have a candidate who understands business and economics, and most importantly how to count. (Sorry probably wishful thinking, but maybe after AOC pursues upgrading to a senate seat).  MCC is not the only person pursuing AOCs seat.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 22, 2020, 05:43:14 PM
I agree with you 12AX, however "she was pushed aside because..."   

Oh you're willing to donate 10m to the NDC, CPC and, ESSC?  How generous of you Tulsi! I'll  pass the word on to our family of congressional organization heads. I'm sure I can get them to reconsider, given the importance of your 'commitments' should you maintain a presence in the caucus.

True,  you generally need to pay to play.  But in doing so it also degrades the integrity of your campaign.  Hard for principled people to advance in politics.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 22, 2020, 06:44:38 PM
I love it when politicians say they follow the science....

So much better when they follow "hunches."
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 22, 2020, 11:55:44 PM
"Azar tapped a trusted aide with minimal public health experience to lead the agency’s day-to-day response to COVID-19. The aide, Brian Harrison, had joined the department after running a dog-breeding business for six years. "

This is one of Trump's "people" who are supposed to handle the details while Trump blathers on in self-aggrandizing semi-coherence.  I dare say all that conservative optimism is rather misplaced.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-hhschief-speci/special-report-hhs-chief-azar-had-aide-former-dog-breeder-steer-pandemic-task-force-idUSKCN2243CE (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-hhschief-speci/special-report-hhs-chief-azar-had-aide-former-dog-breeder-steer-pandemic-task-force-idUSKCN2243CE)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 23, 2020, 11:19:11 AM
A peer reviewed study is far less of a "hunch" than that new grasp imo.......

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920300996

regardless of any reasons for not wanting to pay attention to it.....
It was a study of 28 patients--less than a tenth of the VA study.  The other evidence I've seen from a New Orleans ER doctor, purely anecdotal, but he wrote that in his ER there was no evidence that hydroxychloroquine was doing any good at all. 

At this point I'd think it's fair to say it's not going to be the wonder drug it was touted as.  It may be of benefit in a limited number of cases, or at a certain point in the disease, but it has serious risks.  And as of this point,  the cautious, thorough science that would help to figure this out is not there, and HQ shouldn't have been touted as a wonder drug by a certain authority figure.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 23, 2020, 12:42:53 PM
No, still a hunch.  Trustworthy scientists and medical professionals were saying that from the first--while there may be some anecdotal evidence of it having beneficial effects, it needs to be studied.  As some here like to point out in other contexts, correlation is not causation.  If one or two patients improve dramatically (while many others don't), it's not time to start spouting off about it being a wonder drug (as some idiot did.)  It's a good time to study its usefulness, certainly.  But it really doesn't appear to do much good.  Another study: 
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?action=post;topic=74718.320;last_msg=949452 (https://groupdiy.com/index.php?action=post;topic=74718.320;last_msg=949452)

"I think it's going to be great," Trump said at a White House briefing on March 19.


That is a hunch.  Plain and simple.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: volker on April 24, 2020, 06:16:04 AM
His latest stroke of genius: injecting disinfectant  ;D ;D.

How he comes up with more stupid ideas by the day is really quite the feat.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 24, 2020, 06:32:35 AM
Quote
. In Gangelt, people who had no or only mild symptoms
Wasn't that study result debated hotly because the testing was non-specific? Meaning, so-and-so many people had some immunity against a coronavirus, as in one amomg the many there are, but nobody knows which coronavirus exactly ?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 24, 2020, 09:59:47 AM
Last sentence in that article the most interesting :
Quote
Questions remain about whether antibodies for COVID-19 in people who've survived the illness provide immunity.
Answer: they don't know yet. And with that, down the drain goes the entire herd-inmunity discourse. For now, it's nothing but assumption.

And while pure assumption is hardly ever the smart way, building a political strategies around that...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 24, 2020, 10:37:25 AM
Quote
millions of people could be walking around with this thing.
No proof yet, but that's what I strongly believe too... And hence the social distancing.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on April 24, 2020, 08:44:46 PM
His latest stroke of genius: injecting disinfectant  ;D ;D.

How he comes up with more stupid ideas by the day is really quite the feat.

And today we find out that he doesn't understand how "sarcasm" works either.

So the politics of COVID-19 are that the President of the United States is an idiot, but still has to be taken seriously. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 24, 2020, 11:14:47 PM
looks like a lot of idiots  dont understand "sarcasm"

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 25, 2020, 02:18:29 AM
Quote
And the infection fatality rate??
What about it? Some hospitals are (still) so hopelessly overwhelmed that the fatality rate there is quite high / too high. What more do we need to know?

Which phase are we in, hope or denial ?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 25, 2020, 09:26:44 AM
The 2017/2018 influenza season, yeah. Wasn't that the year they had f**ked up one of the two vaccination cocktails? Worldwide phenomenon, as far as I remember.
----------
Sorry to hear about you dad in law. COPD, yes, then you know what's going on in hospitals around the world.

What I want to hear and read about is NOT trigger-happy 'herd immunity' arguments that pop up seconds after a study has surfaced that might or might not contain something hopeful, but nobody can possibly tell because samples were too small, test methods not standard, etc etc. It's all still too early for that.

What I'd rather like to read more about is...
(1)
detailed studies about the health conditions of those who needed to be hospitalized and got released. How are they doing? Truly fully recovered? If not, what and how severe the damage? What GOLD stage? II or III or IV ? Curable ?  Chronic ? 
(2)
More reliable tests results on immunity. Life-long? Very unlikely. But if immune to some degree, for how long ? Still too early to tell.
(3)
Proponents of herd-immunity stop disussing the concept by blowing hot air and instead go test it out by either voluntering as hospital staff for example or deliberately getting exposed to the virus several times to proof to us that they are indeed immune. Honestly, especially this second to  last one (volunteering where staff is dearly needed) is what I want to read about.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 25, 2020, 12:30:18 PM
The 2017/2018 influenza season, yeah. Wasn't that the year they had f**ked up one of the two vaccination cocktails? Worldwide phenomenon, as far as I remember.
----------
Sorry to hear about you dad in law. COPD, yes, then you know what's going on in hospitals around the world.

What I want to hear and read about is NOT trigger-happy 'herd immunity' arguments that pop up seconds after a study has surfaced that might or might not contain something hopeful, but nobody can possibly tell because samples were too small, test methods not standard, etc etc. It's all still too early for that.

What I'd rather like to read more about is...
(1)
detailed studies about the health conditions of those who needed to be hospitalized and got released. How are they doing? Truly fully recovered? If not, what and how severe the damage? What GOLD stage? II or III or IV ? Curable ?  Chronic ? 
(2)
More reliable tests results on immunity. Life-long? Very unlikely. But if immune to some degree, for how long ? Still too early to tell.
(3)
Proponents of herd-immunity stop disussing the concept by blowing hot air and instead go test it out by either voluntering as hospital staff for example or deliberately getting exposed to the virus several times to proof to us that they are indeed immune. Honestly, especially this second to  last one (volunteering where staff is dearly needed) is what I want to read about.
+1

It is hard to parse out useful data from the breathless media, rewarded by scaring viewers into watching,,, but.

It appears in the US at least a high incidence of dense localized deaths occurred in senior care facilities. In hindsight this is logical and a potential lesson we can apply to better protect the fragile among us. Since this is far from over and will come around again.

The fraction of patients who recover after being put on ventilators is not great, but unclear what exactly this is telling us?  We have much to learn still.

JR

PS: I am not a huge fan of flu shots and did not get one last year. The year before I let my former doctor talk me into two different flu(?) shots. Maybe this year it might be sensible to try flu vaccine again (I'm old). Apparently there are multiple flus going around and vaccines only protect against their best guess of which ones will be dominant.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 25, 2020, 01:19:41 PM
Cuomo's response to Mitch McConnell's latest idiocy:  "Let me just go back to my self-proclaimed Grim Reaper, Senator McConnell, for another second. He represents the state of Kentucky. Okay? When it comes to fairness, New York state puts much more money into the federal pot than it takes out. Okay? At the end of the year, we put into that federal pot $116 billion more than we take out. Okay? His state, the state of Kentucky, takes out 148 billion more than they put in. Okay? So he’s a federal legislator. He’s distributing the federal pot of money. New York puts in more money to the federal pot than it takes out. His state takes out more than it puts in. Senator McConnell, who’s getting bailed out here? It’s your state that is living on the money that we generate. Your state is getting bailed out. Not my state."

The truth that conservative red-staters can't handle is that they are the real welfare queens that Reagan so famously talked about.  They are the takers, feet propped up and hands out, crying, "Gimme!  Gimme!  Gimme!" 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 25, 2020, 01:54:33 PM
Cuomo's response to Mitch McConnell's latest idiocy:  "Let me just go back to my self-proclaimed Grim Reaper, Senator McConnell, for another second. He represents the state of Kentucky. Okay? When it comes to fairness, New York state puts much more money into the federal pot than it takes out. Okay? At the end of the year, we put into that federal pot $116 billion more than we take out. Okay? His state, the state of Kentucky, takes out 148 billion more than they put in. Okay? So he’s a federal legislator. He’s distributing the federal pot of money. New York puts in more money to the federal pot than it takes out. His state takes out more than it puts in. Senator McConnell, who’s getting bailed out here? It’s your state that is living on the money that we generate. Your state is getting bailed out. Not my state."

The truth that conservative red-staters can't handle is that they are the real welfare queens that Reagan so famously talked about.  They are the takers, feet propped up and hands out, crying, "Gimme!  Gimme!  Gimme!"
When exchanges sink to name calling that is usually a sign that the arguments have no real merit.

====
Only a small minority of states pay more to the fed than they get back (around 10 of them). I just checked and GA is also sucking on that same government teat. Does that mean they are all "welfare queens" too?

If Cuomo is trying to win friends and influence people to secure the federal aid to states legislation in play, this does not seem like a productive negotiating strategy.  ::) Cuomo is also using his new found public platform to push back against the Salt tax law change, unpopular with legislators from the high tax northeast.


JR

PS: Now even Bill Maher is pushing back against helicopter money deficit spending... (a blind squirrel finds the occasional nut). This makes two unexpected pearls of wisdom from him. He recently criticized the opposition media for making President Trump look correct when claiming fake news.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 25, 2020, 02:01:51 PM
His latest stroke of genius: injecting disinfectant  ;D ;D.

How he comes up with more stupid ideas by the day is really quite the feat.
Not surprising - just more of the usual anencephalic speculation we're used to.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 25, 2020, 05:51:16 PM
When exchanges sink to name calling that is usually a sign that the arguments have no real merit.

====
Only a small minority of states pay more to the fed than they get back (around 10 of them). I just checked and GA is also sucking on that same government teat. Does that mean they are all "welfare queens" too?

JR


I think the point is that McConnell needs to shut his f*cking mouth when it comes to letting blue states go bankrupt.  He's as sleazy, corrupt, and amoral a politician as Washington has on offer these days. 

Cuomo is not making up the framing--he's simply throwing Republican framing back in McConnell's face.  A lot of us (in fact, I'm betting a majority of us)--obviously including Cuomo--are absolutely sick of nonstop Republican hypocrisy.  It's really getting old. 

I think Dems (and some Republicans) are fully aware that, especially now, this is the United States of America, and we've got to act like it.  We are all in this together, and scumbags like McConnell need to leave their petty, partisan BS at home.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 25, 2020, 06:39:20 PM
I sure hope you are keeping safe and feeding your head.

You sound angrier than most forum members these days.  If I am your personal trigger I apologize. 

Be well.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 25, 2020, 07:04:00 PM
If Cuomo is trying to win friends and influence people to secure the federal aid to states legislation in play, this does not seem like a productive negotiating strategy.  ::)
This is just the opening to a negotiation, after all.  He making his point by going to the extreme and trying to negotiate back to the middle.

Cuomo should be taken seriously, not literally.  Those looking to parse meaning from his press conferences would best spend their time elsewhere.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 25, 2020, 10:01:02 PM
I think Dems (and some Republicans) are fully aware that, especially now, this is the United States of America, and we've got to act like it.  We are all in this together, and scumbags like McConnell need to leave their petty, partisan BS at home.


What do u call Pelosi and her friends  ::)
get freaking real  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 25, 2020, 10:44:26 PM
This is just the opening to a negotiation, after all.  He making his point by going to the extreme and trying to negotiate back to the middle.

Cuomo should be taken seriously, not literally.  Those looking to parse meaning from his press conferences would best spend their time elsewhere.
I need to save this....   ;D ;D ;D  I think I've heard this somewhere before... (like right here, from me).

===
Another criticism of Cuomo is that he is coming from a "NY state of mind"... appropriate for the governor of NY, but a stretch to suggest that the senate majority leader is only representing KY.

JR

PS: I was born just miles from NYC and grew up in Northern New Jersey so I get the NYC mindset.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 26, 2020, 03:33:29 AM
I need to save this....   ;D ;D ;D  I think I've heard this somewhere before... (like right here, from me).

===
Another criticism of Cuomo is that he is coming from a "NY state of mind"... appropriate for the governor of NY, but a stretch to suggest that the senate majority leader is only representing KY.


He's also representing his wife's family's business in China--we can't forget that constituency! 

I read a good bit of the transcript of Cuomo's comments on McConnell, and more than anything he sounded righteously pissed--there may be bargaining coming, but what Cuomo said, I believe, was out of sheer disgust with Mitch McConnell. 

And with good reason.  He's been weak at best during this crisis, but more often he's been gumming up the works, slowing down the process of getting money to where it's needed, and he's spent a lot of time ensuring that the ultra-wealthy (his real consituency) are taken care of. 

He should be called out for the crap he spouts--it's exactly what this country doesn't need in this time of crisis.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 26, 2020, 06:22:49 AM
He's also representing his wife's family's business in China--we can't forget that constituency! 

And with good reason.  He's been weak at best during this crisis, but more often he's been gumming up the works, slowing down the process of getting money to where it's needed, and he's spent a lot of time ensuring that the ultra-wealthy (his real constituency) are taken care of. 

He should be called out for the crap he spouts--it's exactly what this country doesn't need in this time of crisis.

just to be make sure, before i give my support on this;
are you talking about NY Governor  ?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 26, 2020, 08:37:43 AM
While I cannot read minds, they appear to be protesting the governor's overly restrictive shut down as fascist.

JR

South Korea did it the right way and only had 200 deaths, and they've already re-opened. They had their first COVID death approximately the same day as us. We've got 50,000+ deaths. Quickly approaching the Vietnam death toll. If people would have all stayed home for 3-4 weeks, we could have already been done with this for the most part, but 'Murica. As these idiots protest, it stretches out the time that I will go without working. I'm doing the right thing and suffering longer as these selfish jerks(seems to be mostly on the right)continue to exercise their "freedom" while slowly infecting others. I saw this lockdown coming and went out and purchased what I needed. I've ordered other items via delivery to stay at home. The only thing that appears to be overly restrictive is blood flow to certain individuals brains. Freedom, God and guns... with a little racism. Idiots.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 26, 2020, 08:56:07 AM
His latest stroke of genius: injecting disinfectant  ;D ;D.

How he comes up with more stupid ideas by the day is really quite the feat.

...or maybe you could get light inside the body, or something...

The idiot just can't stop talking, can he? I'm ashamed to think how our country is perceived by others around the world. I'm guessing the slogan "America First" is not only offensive, but laughable at this point. May we get what we deserve... As a collective whole, we've asked for it(or didn't speak out against it loudly enough).

*edited for grammatical boo-boos
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: volker on April 26, 2020, 10:29:21 AM
The story gets even worse: https://www.wbez.org/stories/illinois-covid-19-testing-sets-new-daily-milestone/b8c20556-53e3-42a9-af0f-f4ede8c14025

Quote
Two Illinoisans exposed themselves to toxic household disinfectants because of President Trump’s advocacy for using the chemicals as a possible treatment for the novel coronavirus, a state-funded poison-control hotline confirmed Friday.

“These were actual exposures, where individuals misused cleaning products due to what they heard the president say,” said Danny Chun, a spokesman for the emergency poison-control hotline that operates around the clock.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 26, 2020, 10:51:15 AM
The story gets even worse: https://www.wbez.org/stories/illinois-covid-19-testing-sets-new-daily-milestone/b8c20556-53e3-42a9-af0f-f4ede8c14025

Funny, that's my local National Public Radio station. I heard that piece of news. I guess Lysol's public statement following the White House "press briefing" didn't make it to the "fake news" outlets fast enough. CDC issued warnings against "sarcasm" also. This country's president is a fool and so are most that listen to him. I had to stop watching well over a week ago. I couldn't handle him being unable to handle himself and his own words as reporters were being belittled for holding him accountable for what he says. Maybe he should just shut his mouth. Scary times.
#I'm not a scientist
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 26, 2020, 11:10:07 AM
South Korea did it the right way and only had 200 deaths, and they've already re-opened. They had their first COVID death approximately the same day as us. We've got 50,000+ deaths. Quickly approaching the Vietnam death toll. If people would have all stayed home for 3-4 weeks, we could have already been done with this for the most part, but 'Murica. As these idiots protest, it stretches out the time that I will go without working. I'm doing the right thing and suffering longer as these selfish jerks(seems to be mostly on the right)continue to exercise their "freedom" while slowly infecting others. I saw this lockdown coming and went out and purchased what I needed. I've ordered other items via delivery to stay at home. The only thing that appears to be overly restrictive is blood flow to certain individuals brains. Freedom, God and guns... with a little racism. Idiots.
Quote from: HL Menken
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong
It isn't quite that simple....  South Korea did a better job with testing than we did (early on), and South Korea was far more active with contact tracing and quarantining contacts. We still haven't sorted our privacy concerns from widespread contact tracing (like apple/google smart phone app).

CT started flying around drones that can detect fevers in people on the ground. Westport declined to use the drones to spy on its own citizens.
=====
"if people would have stayed home for 3 weeks"...... what people? the infected from Wuhan region that flew around the world spreading the deadly virus?

The story from China keeps getting worse... they locked down travel out of Wuhan to the rest of China, while allowing air flights to countries outside China. Then China started buying up PPE supplies, creating scarcity and shortages in PPE supplies around the world, since China was the major source of them.
=====

Yes President Trump talks too much, sometimes with incompletely formed thoughts. Unwise when speaking from the bully pulpit especially when low information citizens may take his blather literally.  Maybe reflecting on this will change his behavior, or not. I have seen only minor changes over recent years so am not very optimistic. He could be far more effective politician with more message discipline. He is still the same blowhard real estate developer we elected. At least he understands business.

JR


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 26, 2020, 11:51:00 AM
It isn't quite that simple....  South Korea did a better job with testing than we did (early on), and South Korea was far more active with contact tracing and quarantining contacts. We still haven't sorted our privacy concerns from widespread contact tracing (like apple/google smart phone app).

This country has a president that discounted scientific advisors and denied that this would even come to fruition in our country. He then denied numbers of cases and tried to hide the information because he was "worried about his polling numbers" instead of acting in a preventative manner(as a leader should). Other countries acted when our leader intentionally withheld information from the public for personal benefit. It doesn't get any simpler. All other arguments are a distraction from the real situation at hand.

The China argument(mostly coming from the right) is downright scary. This could have been way different if we didn't have a selfish sociopath for a president. Pointing fingers outwardly instead of reflecting inwardly is cowardly and pointless. Not only that, but picking a fight with the largest country in the world seems to be yet another "brilliant" idea. We are all HUMAN and this virus does not discriminate. Our numbers are proof that we have handled this pandemic worse than any other country in the world, and now we(not myself)want to blame someone other than ourselves.

At least he understands business

He inherited his money from Daddy. He bankrupted a casino. A place where people go to throw their money away... and I'm not sure I see the benefit in our current situation. Please refer to my "signature tag".
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 26, 2020, 12:14:02 PM
At least he understands business.

JR

I think I'll put a Trump Steak on the grill this evening.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-businesses-failures-successes-2016-10%3famp

http://labor411.org/411-blog/here-are-all-of-trump-s-bankruptcies-and-failed-businesses

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on April 26, 2020, 12:34:14 PM
At least he understands business.

JR
Quote from: Lewis Carroll
Alice laughed. 'There's no use trying,' she said. 'One can't believe impossible things.'

I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. 'When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. There goes the shawl again!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 26, 2020, 12:49:29 PM
They need to reposition  "The Heathers" movie as an educational film....   ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 26, 2020, 01:37:53 PM
I posted something fake and have removed it. I apologize.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 26, 2020, 02:38:07 PM
Good news - the US is going to hit 1,000,000 cases and more deaths than Viet Nam this week, in large part due to a lack of competent leadership by a failed chicken sh!t draft dodging snake oil salesman, with the support of a huge group of humans whose psychopathy I fail to comprehend. Just venting - carry on.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 27, 2020, 12:56:39 PM
From an article about Mitch McConnell's recent shenanigans: 
United States senators from smaller, poorer red states do not only represent their states. Often, they do not even primarily represent their states. They represent, more often, the richest people in bigger, richer blue States who find it more economical to invest in less expensive small-state races. The biggest contributor to Mitch McConnell’s 2020 campaign and leadership committee is a PAC headquartered in Englewood, New Jersey. The second is a conduit for funds from real-estate investors. The third is the tobacco company Altria. The fourth is the parcel delivery service UPS. The fifth is the Eli Lilly pharmaceutical corporation. The sixth is the home health-care company, LHC Group. The seventh is the Blackstone hedge fund.

This is the face of the American plutocracy. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 27, 2020, 10:07:38 PM
Interesting article about people trained to deal with epidemics and what happens when politicians won't let them do their job.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leaders-let-scientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 27, 2020, 10:39:37 PM
I hear that my state governor is relaxing the shelter in place order...... I hope my (dust) masks I ordered from China, get here before this is all over....

Another sign this may be winding down I got notified that my TP web order placed back in Mar has shipped, but still not here either...

Wash your hands and don't touch your face .... even after this is over....  8)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 27, 2020, 11:30:44 PM
I hear that my state governor is relaxing the shelter in place order...... I hope my (dust) masks I ordered from China, get here before this is all over....
JR

what mask did u order ? n95's has different versions !

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 02:40:57 AM
what mask did u order ? n95's has different versions !
I stopped looking but I never found a n95 mask for sale... just looked again,  they say "Prioritized for organizations on the frontlines responding to COVID-19"

JR

PS: I'd worry about COVID on my (DUST) masks coming from china but any virus will probably die from the weeks in transit.  ;)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 28, 2020, 02:58:13 AM
I stopped looking but I never found a n95 mask for sale... just looked again,  they say "Prioritized for organizations on the frontlines responding to COVID-19"

JR

PS: I'd worry about COVID on my (DUST) masks coming from china but any virus will probably die from the weeks in transit.  ;)

rush for n95s slowed down. Chinese n95 are on sale, but they are not NIOSH approved!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on April 28, 2020, 10:16:20 AM
This is the face of the American plutocracy.

It's hilarious that fiscal responsibilty is only a thing after the connected cronies have already gotten their due. Cuomo was right to call out McConnel, but it's not like he doesn't have his own baggage as well. We have a terrible president, and McConnel is as sleazy a politician as there is. But the whole system lacks credibility when the proposed solution is a Clinton and a Biden, both of whom were was also implicated by the same author that exposed McConnel.

Until people realize it's two sides of the same corrupt coin nothing will change.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on April 28, 2020, 10:54:29 AM
Quote
I hear that my state governor is relaxing the shelter in place order.....
In your region, what do you reckon, will it be three or five weeks until it's tightened again ?

Tokyo (all of Japan), on May 6, is most likely  to extend it by another two weeks at least.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 11:15:23 AM
In your region, what do you reckon, will it be three or five weeks until it's tightened again ?
I am not as smart as you guys so I can't predict the future...

I just checked my state covid stats and still zero deaths in my county, 64 cases total.  In the larger county 15-20 miles east there are over 300 cases and 19 deaths, but from talking to my neighbor who works part time as a druggist over there, most of those deaths are in senior care facilities.

My local bank branch is closed so I would have to drive 15 miles to a drive up window to do any bank business. So far I have been doing OK with my once a week grocery shopping, and I have a couple weeks worth of frozen dinner servings, so I will survive the predicted meat shortages. Several beef and pork processing plants are shut down, but still unclear why there would be shortages with restaurants closed down freeing up a lot of meat.  The meats isn't packaged properly for retail sales, but they can adjust that.  The meat processors are modifying their shut down plants to allow safer distancing, fever monitoring,  and sneeze shields separating workers, for the new normal we will return to. 
Quote
Tokyo (all of Japan), on May 6, is most likely  to extend it by another two weeks at least.
Good luck and stay safe.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 11:21:17 AM
rush for n95s slowed down. Chinese n95 are on sale, but they are not NIOSH approved!
I saw some dicey looking 95% masks offered on Amazon from a questionable source.

I used up all my actual n95 masks I bought years ago,  for mowing my yard so now all I have is cheap dust masks. I have one hepa vacuum cleaner bag I could cut up to make a serious face mask but I feel lucky... I wear my dust mask when grocery shopping mainly to keep other shoppers comfortable, but don't see a lot of other people when I shop early in the AM (early for me).

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on April 28, 2020, 11:29:43 AM
It's hilarious that fiscal responsibilty is only a thing after the connected cronies have already gotten their due. Cuomo was right to call out McConnel, but it's not like he doesn't have his own baggage as well. We have a terrible president, and McConnel is as sleazy a politician as there is. But the whole system lacks credibility when the proposed solution is a Clinton and a Biden, both of whom were was also implicated by the same author that exposed McConnel.

Until people realize it's two sides of the same corrupt coin nothing will change.

Democrats are far from perfect, but Republicans are consistently worse. They have systematically weakened and corrupted institutions on account of greed as well as ideology. Short-term thinking and narrow-minded focus on the wealthy special interests that form their donor base have become ingrained in the party for decades. The textbook dark triad tactics -lies, deception, manipulation, manufacture of wedge-issues, fuelling the flames of xenophobia - to have people vote against their interests while actively using everything in the anti-democratic toolbox to prevent the opposition from voting has no equivalent on the other side of the isle.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on April 28, 2020, 11:58:56 AM
One of the leaders of ReOpen NC group says she tested positive for COVID-19
https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article242317346.html (https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article242317346.html)

I thought I'd try to offer a nice encapsulation of this woman's rantings, but she's so scattershot it's nigh on impossible.   Bucketloads of crazy right there. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 28, 2020, 12:48:24 PM
The idiocy continues... GOP state representative in Illinois sues the state to be exempt from “overreaching” stay at home orders. This will potentially open the floodgates for similar lawsuits going forward... as news outlets are reporting that meat shortages are going to start occurring throughout grocery stores across the country starting next week. I’m not sure freedom is that awesome when food availability becomes an issue. Freedom. ‘Murica. Stupid.

...got a neighbor who served in Vietnam(lied about his age, never even finished junior year in high school). Staunchly republican, diabetic, living with a pacemaker and not observing guidelines. One would think this guy might stay home, but... ‘Murica. Real life Darwin Awards applicant. Potential Fox News casualty. “Bravely Republican” might be a nice epitaph, huh? Nursing home in my town with 66 cases. Open up the country... my grandparents are already dead.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 01:11:15 PM
The idiocy continues... GOP state representative in Illinois sues the state to be exempt from “overreaching” stay at home orders. This will potentially open the floodgates for similar lawsuits going forward... as news outlets are reporting that meat shortages are going to start occurring throughout grocery stores across the country starting next week. I’m not sure freedom is that awesome when food availability becomes an issue. Freedom. ‘Murica. Stupid.

...got a neighbor who served in Vietnam(lied about his age, never even finished junior year in high school). Staunchly republican, diabetic, living with a pacemaker and not observing guidelines. One would think this guy might stay home, but... ‘Murica. Real life Darwin Awards applicant. Potential Fox News casualty. “Bravely Republican” might be a nice epitaph, huh? Nursing home in my town with 66 cases. Open up the country... my grandparents are already dead.
Even if he lied about his age a viet nam era veteran is old enough to be at risk.

Luckily he has a good (smart) neighbor like you to worry about him.  ::)

Yes nursing homes are looking like a bad place to be (in fact they already looked bad before). I suspect we will see significant changes in how they operate going forward regarding infectious disease transmission mitigation.

I am optimistic about far UVc (short wavelength UV 207-222nm that doesn't harm humans), being useful for public health applications while humans are present. Still kind of new and expensive but I can imagine a lot of applications.

JR

PS: Maybe if we didn't close up the hole in the ozone layer (remember that anybody?) the unfiltered sunlight's UV might kill viruses (while giving everybody skin cancer).   I'm joking...... relax

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 02:24:52 PM
just found out about an experimental procedure to kill covid virus in patients using UV light.

The company is Aytu Bioscience and the product is called "heal light"....  They are using UVA so they filter out the shorter UVb and UVc wavelengths, to make it safer.  Good luck finding good information they have been blocked from twitter and several social media sites.  No doubt this is at least in part what President Trump was talking about the other day (inarticulately).

This is different from my far UVc that I am so excited about. .

JR

[edit- here's some info from a financial stock tout....   https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aytu-bioscience-signs-exclusive-global-120000824.html (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/aytu-bioscience-signs-exclusive-global-120000824.html)   [/edit]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 28, 2020, 08:28:53 PM
Quote
Good luck finding good information

Read all about it:

https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/detail.jsf?docId=US243316678&tab=NATIONALBIBLIO

"SUMMARY OF THE DISCLOSURE
      Ultraviolet light is invisible and non-ionizing segment of light spectrum that is divided into three spectrums: (1) UV-A (320 to 400 nm), (2) UV-B (280 to 320 nm), and (3) UV-C (110 to 280 nm). All these components are present in sunlight but UV-C is almost fully absorbed by ozone layer and does not reach the earth surface. UV-A and UV-B are involved in the formation of Vitamin D in human skin. Although UV-C light is traditionally used for disinfection of non-organic surfaces (e.g. hospital rooms, aquariums, air vents, and the like), UV-A and UV-B light have significant anti-inflammatory and antibiotic effects as well. The antibiotic effects of UV-A and UV-B light is induced via damage to haploid DNA/RNA of microorganisms such as bacteria, archaea, fungi, yeast and viruses within minutes. UV light is even capable of stopping the disease process in prion-related diseases that currently has no cure.
      However, mammalian diploid DNA is significantly more resistant to such damage. For example, it takes decades of direct sun exposure for select individuals with relevant gene susceptibility and skin type to develop precancerous skin lesions. UV phototherapy is widely being used in management of skin diseases, such as, for example, psoriasis, vitiligo, atopic dermatitis, eczema, Kaposi sarcoma, lichen planus, skin lymphoma, neonatal jaundice, and the like. Such process has been proposed and used as adenomatous polyp detection tool on colonoscopy and also has been proposed in conjunction with a super glue for closing patent foramen ovale.
      Considering the anti-inflammatory and antibiotic effects of UV-A and UV-B light, it has the potential to revolutionize the management of non-dermatologic (i.e., internal organs) infections and inflammatory diseases. While UV light has traditionally been used to treat skin disorders, it has not yet been developed for broader infection or inflammation treatment in vivo.
      Accordingly, a system has been developed as described herein for emission of therapeutic doses of UV light using vehicles, such as, for example, a catheter, capsule, endoscope, tube or port, for treating or managing internal infections and/or inflammatory conditions inside a patient. For instance, in some examples, the inventors developed devices that can deliver therapeutic doses of UV light in the UV-AB range from a catheter, endoscope, capsule, or other device to treat infections and inflammatory conditions inside the patient.
      In another instance, a system utilizing LEDs or a cold cathode emission that can emit light to cover a broad area inside the body has been developed. Accordingly, these systems may emit UV-A and/or UV-B light emitted from a catheter, endoscope, or other device inside the body to treat or manage infections or inflammatory conditions. "

Looks like it will be awhile though.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
I am still curious about far UVc, but I have several conventional  UVc lamps around the house I use to disinfect stuff (like my beer fermenter), when I am not in the room. .

JR

[edit my larger point is that this technology is what President Trump was talking about, when the opposition media attacked him. /edit]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 28, 2020, 11:14:32 PM
I am still curious about far UVc, but I have several conventional  UVc lamps around the house I use to disinfect stuff (like my beer fermenter), when I am not in the room. .

JR

[edit my larger point is that this technology is what President Trump was talking about, when the opposition media attacked him. /edit]

opposition is bunch of idiots! i wouldnt worry about them!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on April 28, 2020, 11:41:22 PM
Luckily he has a good (smart) neighbor like you to worry about him.  ::)

Apologies, JR. Given our political differences, I'm not sure if you're being complimentary or condescending, and I'm not trying to be a jackass. Text/net threads can be difficult to assess real intent. Regardless, my neighbor is choosing to do what he hears advised from the "not" fake news media. We saw each other at the fence line. He invited me over. I placed a lawn chair 10 feet from the fence line to speak with him, while he told me "everything is fine, Bro." I told him he was absolutely correct as long as we were 3m+ apart. He shook his head in disagreement. He still has children and grandchildren over every 3-4 days. Both of his sons service large ups/emergency health care facility backup/power transfer switch equipment. Best way to catch it... and I like bacon. Let's get it together.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 29, 2020, 12:31:07 AM
...got a neighbor who served in Vietnam(lied about his age, never even finished junioryear in high school). Staunchly republican, diabetic, living with a pacemaker and not observing guidelines.

why do you have to mention which political side he is on!
u need to get your horse blinkers off, and get a sun glasses to visit CA,
so, i can introduce  you to sh*t lot of democrats doing the same!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 29, 2020, 12:57:19 AM
Until people realize it's two sides of the same corrupt coin nothing will change.

+1
unfortunately lot of idiots out there! 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on April 29, 2020, 02:00:54 AM

[edit my larger point is that this technology is what President Trump was talking about, when the opposition media attacked him. /edit]

Hmm, no evidence for this, and I still can't read minds, but I guess you've now learned how.   :)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 29, 2020, 11:13:42 AM
Hmm, no evidence for this, and I still can't read minds, but I guess you've now learned how.   :)
I don't have to read any minds the attacks were in plain sight.

Further Aytu bioscience posted videos to social media explaining the technology that were removed from youtube, twitter, etc.

https://www.reddit.com/r/kotakuinaction2/comments/g88xxx/update_twitter_just_suspended_the_account_of_the/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/kotakuinaction2/comments/g88xxx/update_twitter_just_suspended_the_account_of_the/)
https://www.hollywoodlanews.com/youtube-bans-aytu-healight-video/ (https://www.hollywoodlanews.com/youtube-bans-aytu-healight-video/)
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/youtube-takes-bio-tech-firms-video-explaining-potential-uv-light-treatment-coronavirus-patients/ (https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/04/youtube-takes-bio-tech-firms-video-explaining-potential-uv-light-treatment-coronavirus-patients/)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 29, 2020, 11:37:36 PM
good democrat CA state made $1B mask deal with China WTF ???

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/california-gov-newsom-wont-share-details-on-1b-mask-deal-with-china
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 29, 2020, 11:45:40 PM
good democrat CA state made $1B mask deal with China WTF ???

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/california-gov-newsom-wont-share-details-on-1b-mask-deal-with-china

My "dust" masks from China are still delayed, but I didn't pay $B.... 

at least my TP order arrived today.  8)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: kambo on April 29, 2020, 11:52:03 PM
My "dust" masks from China are still delayed, but I didn't pay $B.... 

at least my TP order arrived today.  8)

JR

happy dumping  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on April 30, 2020, 12:03:36 PM
happy dumping  ;D ;D ;D
I think the we can stick a fork in the (hysterical) TP shortage, at wally world today doing my grocery shopping there was a stack of TP by the front door. It appears the supply chain has been restocked.

That said I could not find my typical beef chuck pot roast this week, and still haven't found real brown rice for weeks. Lots of processed one minute brown rice, but i want the slow cook real deal (moth eggs and all). Unexpectedly no bell peppers today... I substituted anaheim and jalapeno peppers so dinner this week will be a little warmer than normal. I have several bell pepper plants in my raised bed garden but only a few inches tall at this point (grown from seeds). I didn't bother going to another grocery store just to find bell pepper.

I just saw a notice that there will be free covid testing in my county (one town away) on saturday, but why would I want to be tested? I'll pass so a neighbor who thinks they need testing can have my spot.

Everybody take care and be well. I wore my old dust mask, and carried a paper towel soaked in rubbing alcohol (in a baggie) to disinfect my hands and shopping cart, etc.

JR

PS: My car insurance is giving me a discount for sheltering in place.... Should I tell them I am pretty much driving the same amount for the last decade plus.  ::)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 01, 2020, 11:29:55 AM
My next door neighbor who is older than me and still working part time as a druggist told me yesterday that they are starting to see drug shortages. For weeks now china has been playing games with exports of critical goods, no doubt to apply pressure against difficult questions.

I expect China to play hardball defending itself from accusations.

JR

PS: I have not connected the drug supply shortage directly to China or even confirmed it, but it sounds consistent with past Chinese behavior. I am confident my neighbor is not making up stories, while there could be other explanations for medicine shortages.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 02, 2020, 04:55:47 AM
Isn't India the world's pharmacy ?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 02, 2020, 11:01:41 AM
Isn't India the world's pharmacy ?
Yes China and India are high on the list.

Drug labelling laws for country of origin do not cover origination of active ingredients. China is a significant source of key ingredients for many generic drugs. (These may be the shortages my druggist neighbor referred to.)

Quote from: WWW
And by mid-January, China, the world's leading maker and exporter of reagents and coronavirus test kits, was itself scrambling for diagnostic kits to screen for COVID-19 as the outbreak spread in Hubei Province and beyond.

Chinese demand and an export ban dried up global supplies and exacerbated a test-kit shortage that affected responses around the world to the mounting pandemic.

There was a knock-on effect in Europe, the coronavirus's second "epicenter" by March, which quickly fell behind on demand for test kits. It still has not recovered, according to the head of the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC), Andrea Ammon.

In the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) blamed "one reagent that isn’t performing as it should consistently" when it hit a major snag rolling out test kits to states in February.

A month later, the head of the CDC warned that reagents essential to test kits "now are in short supply." 
https://www.rferl.org/a/coronavirus-reagent-delaying-expanded-coronavirus-testing-/30563198.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/coronavirus-reagent-delaying-expanded-coronavirus-testing-/30563198.html)

I can't read China's mind, but suspect they are going to use whatever leverage that can grab to reduce criticism from the west.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on May 02, 2020, 12:23:51 PM
Quote
... to reduce criticism from the west.
Maybe just try criticizing from a different direction?  ;D

Just don´t practise any self criticism and never stray off the path of carbon and stock market driven everlasting growth ideology. And all will be good. Really.

PS: no worry, my last post in this thread, I would have liked to hear and consider any good argument for the politics of the misleadingly called conservatives and neoliberals, e.g. regarding health politics, but I guess it just isn´t there.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on May 02, 2020, 01:07:41 PM
Yes, Andratté, that about sums it up.  :-\
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 02, 2020, 10:24:07 PM
This is a good article. Felt the urge to repost.

Interesting article about people trained to deal with epidemics and what happens when politicians won't let them do their job.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leaders-let-scientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not
Suggestion:
change name of this thread to:
---  'Covid policies' ---
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 03, 2020, 12:09:12 PM
good democrat CA state made $1B mask deal with China WTF ???

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/california-gov-newsom-wont-share-details-on-1b-mask-deal-with-china

...as state governments are protecting their PPE purchases with local National Guard members from being stolen away upon delivery by FEMA. The president said the states are on their own, and now people are upset that they are taking care of themselves? Why is the federal government attempting to steal PPE? Kambo, you should ask why Trump allowed a large shipment of N95 masks to be shipped to China in February(democratic hoax, maybe?), and now is stealing from the states who provide for themselves? The problem is not CA, but our current leadership. Stealing masks from states that seek out their own solution with their own tax dollars is America at its best... scumbags.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 03, 2020, 01:00:01 PM
...and people are concerned where CA is getting their masks. Leadership is the bigger problem.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/apr/02/facebook-posts/yes-us-shipped-donated-personal-protective-equipme/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 03, 2020, 01:11:09 PM
My cheap chinese (dust) masks that I ordered april 10th have been stuck in customs since apr 27th...

I notice that actual n95 masks are still prioritized for hospitals and government agencies...

but they are now selling masks for dogs. 
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/613fDC7rG4L._AC_UL320_.jpg)

Stay safe all...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 03, 2020, 01:32:52 PM
why do you have to mention which political side he is on!

Because there is a noticeably larger subset of Republicans ignoring and protesting these public health orders. They fly Trump flags, confederate flags, Don't Tread On Me flags, American flags, Betsy Ross flags, NRA stickers, etc. They profess their ignorance outwardly and choose to IDENTIFY themselves as they do so. That is why I point out the political affiliation. I don't fly Hillary flags or Bernie flags or a rainbow flag or NAACP/ACLU stickers as I try to stay home. See the difference? I do. Same neighbor had family 3 generations deep and friends over 2 days ago. I predict being down 1 neighbor soon. 'Murica.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 03, 2020, 03:22:36 PM
The quarantine/face mask social distancing/stay-at-home/close-businesses mandates aren't going to keep most of the population (you and me) from getting covid-19 if there is no effective vaccine in the near future. It is merely a temporizing measure (IMHO) to "flatten" the curve so that the medical system will not continue to be overwhelmed. The area under the curve (total number of cases) will be about the same, just spread over time. So I say let those who want to open things up do their thing, take their chances and hope to get the minimally symptomatic disease, as long as there aren't too many serious cases all at once.

The hope is that over this same time a vaccine(s) and/or effective treatments for the disease will be developed so that either the infection rate or the morbidity/mortality will be reduced. Me, in the high risk for death category, I'll wait it out with mitigation measures as long as I can, hoping for a better outcome as time goes on.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 03, 2020, 03:58:26 PM
The quarantine/face mask social distancing/stay-at-home/close-businesses mandates aren't going to keep most of the population (you and me) from getting covid-19 if there is no effective vaccine in the near future. It is merely a temporizing measure (IMHO) to "flatten" the curve so that the medical system will not continue to be overwhelmed.
AFAIK the medical system is keeping up but not with a huge margin of excess capacity.

The hospital ships and temporary hospitals did not appear to get fully used.
Quote
The area under the curve (total number of cases) will be about the same, just spread over time. So I say let those who want to open things up do their thing, take their chances and hope to get the minimally symptomatic disease, as long as there aren't too many serious cases all at once.
still unclear how many have already been infected with symptomless infection.
Quote
The hope is that over this same time a vaccine(s) and/or effective treatments for the disease will be developed so that either the infection rate or the morbidity/mortality will be reduced. Me, in the high risk for death category, I'll wait it out with mitigation measures as long as I can, hoping for a better outcome as time goes on.

Always the optimist I feel like we get smarter and better prepared (more medical system capacity) with every passing day. A vaccine, or multiple vaccines will happen, a number of companies are working very hard on this. Of course these take time to test for safety and efficacy. I expect China to be ahead of the pack with looser testing safety standards.

Of course buying vaccines from China who arguably allowed this to happen seems a little like rewarding bad behavior.

We are getting smarter about mitigation with multiple drugs being tested and showing progress to speed recovery and hopefully reduce mortality.

Every day that goes by we learn more about how the many other countries dealt with covid19 and their outcomes. These range from Sweden's lighter hand to China's iron fist (but flaky data).

I too am in the target age group but relatively healthy and not a social butterfly (I live alone) so have made almost zero alterations to my normal routine. I appreciate the sacrifice made by so many young people to benefit us old farts... thank you.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 04, 2020, 09:43:44 AM
There is unfortunately truth in humor.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on May 04, 2020, 10:00:30 AM
There is unfortunately truth in humor.

tiz

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/343/462/79a.gif)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 04, 2020, 10:23:39 AM
(first section is a crazydoc reply to JR:)

Quote from: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 10:39:08 PM


    [edit my larger point is that this technology is what President Trump was talking about, when the opposition media attacked him. /edit]


Hmm, no evidence for this, and I still can't read minds, but I guess you've now learned how.   



I don't have to read any minds the attacks were in plain sight

JR


So I went away for a while, & then I caught the utter obliviousness of the response to crazydoc's comment. 

It made me wonder:  Is it that people on the right are incapable of recognizing their own hypocrisy, or that they're unwilling to admit to it, no matter how blatant it might be? 

Sorry for interrupting. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 04, 2020, 11:31:33 AM
(first section is a crazydoc reply to JR:)

Quote from: JohnRoberts on April 28, 2020, 10:39:08 PM


    [edit my larger point is that this technology is what President Trump was talking about, when the opposition media attacked him. /edit]


Hmm, no evidence for this, and I still can't read minds, but I guess you've now learned how.   


So I went away for a while, & then I caught the utter obliviousness of the response to crazydoc's comment. 

It made me wonder:  Is it that people on the right are incapable of recognizing their own hypocrisy, or that they're unwilling to admit to it, no matter how blatant it might be? 

Sorry for interrupting.
No it was the expected response when you can't argue facts you attack the individual...

I hope you are well...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 04, 2020, 12:30:05 PM
One town over from me. Local newspaper.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 04, 2020, 12:39:38 PM
It made me wonder:  Is it that people on the right are incapable of recognizing their own hypocrisy, or that they're unwilling to admit to it, no matter how blatant it might be? 


I agree. I find it entertaining when the party who, overall professes to be religious, stands for tribalism, selfishness and profit. WWJD? "Not what Republicans do", is the answer.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 04, 2020, 01:19:43 PM
I agree. I find it entertaining when the party who, overall professes to be religious, stands for tribalism, selfishness and profit. WWJD? "Not what Republicans do", is the answer.
No political party has a corner on hypocrisy, it is the nature of the job.

Right now Joe Biden is the poster boy for hypocrisy

Quote from: Joe Biden
"For a woman to come forward in the glaring lights of focus, nationally, you've got to start off with the presumption that at least the essence of what she's talking about is real," said Biden during the confirmation hearings for Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, who faced accusations that as a teenager he had assaulted a woman at a party.

As vice president, Biden played an important role in the Obama administration's efforts to compel colleges and universities to take sexual violence more seriously—and to adopt policies that limited the due process rights and presumption of innocence for the accused. In recent years, his rhetoric on these issues has been in lockstep with #MeToo activists.

That was then, now it "never never" happened.....  Like the last high profile partisan METOO eruption, this one after decades passing is lacking hard evidence but the response seems instructive. Joe Biden's short list of VP female candidates are walking a tightrope in their comments about this accusation. Similar quotes from them during the Kavanaugh hearing could be found. The hypocrisy from them is delicious to watch. If they were posturing for his job instead of to be his pick, their tone would be dramatically different.  That is just politics as usual.

I have no idea if there is any there there, and it is unlikely that this will derail Joe Biden's  nomination. They need to open it up to as much sunlight as possible and move past it as quickly as practical, because this is ultimately a he said/she said that will not be resolved one way or the other by finding hard evidence. As I said before the timing of this is seems incredibly opportunistic (maybe she is angling for a book deal).

JR

PS: You forgot the cliche "clutching their bibles and guns")....... For the record I do not profess to be religious, I do not promote tribalism, arguably I can be a little selfish (I'm human), and without any evil profit my business will go away (don't ask me how many drum tuners I sold last month but hint, it rhymes with hero). Philosophically I lean libertarian but they haven't been electable ever. IMO republicans offer a better chance of improving future government policies, while I expect my opinion is not shared by many posters here.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 04, 2020, 01:31:23 PM
The current president had many more accusers and SEVERAL NDAs. Kavanaugh got the job. Argument dealt with. Probably better placed in the the thread you put together for politics alone. Next.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 04, 2020, 02:29:02 PM
So I went away for a while, & then I caught the utter obliviousness of the response to crazydoc's comment.   
JR was obviously ignoring the meaning of the response and diverting attention to an irrelevant matter, and his post wasn't worthy of a response.

Just some random thoughts on covid and politics:
Trump campaign is now laying the groundwork to blame China for how the pandemic got so out of hand in the US, rather than Trump's absolutely pitiful response through January, February, and into March, when it was obvious to all but the most ignorant what was likely to happen.

There are lots of red hats in the protests/demands to "open up." If this backfires and there is a significant uptick in cases/deaths, some of Trump's voters may not be around at election time.  :'(
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 04, 2020, 03:08:43 PM
JR was obviously ignoring the meaning of the response and diverting attention to an irrelevant matter, and his post wasn't worthy of a response.
maybe I'm just stupid?
Quote
Just some random thoughts on covid and politics:
Trump campaign is now laying the groundwork to blame China for how the pandemic got so out of hand in the US, rather than Trump's absolutely pitiful response through January, February, and into March, when it was obvious to all but the most ignorant what was likely to happen.
if you want to take China's side in this good luck, the evidence against them is piling up despite them concealing and destroying early(?) evidence. 
Quote
There are lots of red hats in the protests/demands to "open up." If this backfires and there is a significant uptick in cases/deaths, some of Trump's voters may not be around at election time.  :'(
You can always hope....  ::)  (be sure to wash your hands and don't touch your face, no matter who you plan to vote for.)

This is business as usual for the republicans to attract wingnuts from the extreme right, and democrats to attract wingnuts from the extreme left. They all look like wingnuts to me...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 04, 2020, 04:01:00 PM
maybe I'm just stupid?
You know that's not what I said, and there you go again, same thing, ignoring the actual meaning and diverting to another  - just your way I guess.

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if you want to take China's side in this good luck, the evidence against them is piling up despite them concealing and destroying early(?) evidence.  You can always hope....  ::)  (be sure to wash your hands and don't touch your face, no matter who you plan to vote for.)
I'm not taking China's side - they surely had some culpability in this world wide, but as regards the US, not to the extent of our narcissistic (and probably social darwinist) supreme leader. Who is, as usual, avoiding taking any responsibility for his bad decisions and trying to dump it elsewhere.

JR
[/quote]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on May 04, 2020, 07:44:54 PM
No political party has a corner on hypocrisy, it is the nature of the job.

Wow, John. Do you really believe that?  :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 04, 2020, 08:54:31 PM
Wow, John. Do you really believe that?  :o
um yes.... I believe what I say.

I hold politicians in pretty low regard... the only thing lower is, well more than one thing lower and I don't feel like making that list right now.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on May 04, 2020, 08:58:59 PM
It made me wonder:  Is it that people on the right are incapable of recognizing their own hypocrisy, or that they're unwilling to admit to it, no matter how blatant it might be? 

What you have to understand is that Trump supporters don't evaluate his performance with logic, they evaluate it with faith.  They have a great deal of faith that Trump will lead in a new era where America is great again.  And for many of them it's also apparently a new era where "white people will be respected again" or some similar racist bullsh*t.

His supporters know he's flawed. Their faith is invested in the team, the whole gathering of supporters who will shepherd things forward under the banner of their golden-hair boy.  He is just the figurehead, which is all he really needs to be with a Senate willing to acquit him of almost anything.

To use one of JR's favorite analogies, picture yourself at the poker table.  Who's the patsy?  Well, you don't want to be the patsy yourself, so maybe you line up with the most obvious card sharp at the table to make sure that somebody else gets screwed.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 05, 2020, 11:32:44 AM
What you have to understand is that Trump supporters don't evaluate his performance with logic, they evaluate it with faith.  They have a great deal of faith that Trump will lead in a new era where America is great again.  And for many of them it's also apparently a new era where "white people will be respected again" or some similar racist bullsh*t.
You mind reading has taken a turn toward meanness. I thought after President Obama retired I wouldn't be called racist so often. (It did change, now the partisan mud slingers call me a white supremacist.  >:(  )
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His supporters know he's flawed.
yes, we are all flawed.... he is a blowhard for one.
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Their faith is invested in the team, the whole gathering of supporters who will shepherd things forward under the banner of their golden-hair boy.  He is just the figurehead, which is all he really needs to be with a Senate willing to acquit him of almost anything.
Mind reading still... I shouldn't need to repeat my reasons yet one more time but the choice was between him and Hillary, enough said. Joe Biden seems a lot more popular than Hillary, but he seems to have lost a step perhaps due to age (He is even older than me  ::) ).
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To use one of JR's favorite analogies, picture yourself at the poker table.  Who's the patsy?  Well, you don't want to be the patsy yourself, so maybe you line up with the most obvious card sharp at the table to make sure that somebody else gets screwed.
The "poker patsy" joke is a warning to not let yourself be taken advantage of because you do not understand what is happening. That warning seems more than appropriate for today's weapons grade political persuasion.  You have turned my poker lesson into suggesting cheating. How do you align with a card shark, by losing to him or her on purpose?  Have you ever played poker? You generally don't win by losing on purpose. Poker is not a team sport.

I am glad to see that somebody read and remembered my post, I wish you fully understood the lesson but I will take some  of the blame since I repeat myself a lot, so don't always explain myself fully.

If it makes you feel good casting aspersion on President Trump's supporters you have tens of millions of targets... Maybe you just want to shut me up. Good luck with that, that is one of the oldest political strategies in the book (Rules for Radicals, distract the  opponent by making him defend himself). 

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on May 05, 2020, 06:30:13 PM
There is a great quote from Frank Wilhoit which seems apropos: Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.

There are very few conservative policies (to the extent they even exist any longer) that don't map cleanly onto this proposition:  from tax-breaks for the wealthy (in-group), a literal border wall (out group),  to controlling women's bodies.  These same protestors with assault rifles in state capitals are the same groups (the in-groups) that screamed at the TV in rage that Colin Kaepernick (the out-group) was taking  a knee during the national anthem:  that somehow that knee was more disrespectful "to the troops" than dressing up in combat armor and storming government buildings.  Even the overall claims of 'small government' seem to fly contrary to every GOP congressional majority who expanded spending at every chance since Reagan, since of course they were part of the in-group, however argued at the same time to cut public goods like food stamps and unemployment benefits, since of course those were going towards "out-groups".

Now to head off the inevitable cries of 'political screed': I don't claim that the democrats/the left have every answer, but far more of the policies like Medicare for All, pushing for an Equal Rights Amendment, creation of the CFPB, and expansion of voting rights, fall more often than not into the idea of enveloping everyone under the umbrella of an 'in-group', more than excluding others in 'out-groups'.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 05, 2020, 09:36:29 PM
There is a great quote from Frank Wilhoit which seems apropos: Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.
cute take on law....

I thought it bound everyone, and protects everyone.
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There are very few conservative policies (to the extent they even exist any longer) that don't map cleanly onto this proposition:  from tax-breaks for the wealthy (in-group), a literal border wall (out group),  to controlling women's bodies.  These same protestors with assault rifles in state capitals are the same groups (the in-groups) that screamed at the TV in rage that Colin Kaepernick (the out-group) was taking  a knee during the national anthem:

a little too neatly wrapped up, but nice try. .
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that somehow that knee was more disrespectful "to the troops" than dressing up in combat armor and storming government buildings.
disrespectful to the flag and by implication our entire country ( the citizens not the troops).

That said I appreciate that the military these days get more respect from the public than back when I was drafted and served in the army (It was pretty ugly in the 70s).

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Even the overall claims of 'small government' seem to fly contrary to every GOP congressional majority who expanded spending at every chance since Reagan,
indeed... but democrats want to spend even more than republicans... while both spend too much.
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since of course they were part of the in-group, however argued at the same time to cut public goods like food stamps and unemployment benefits, since of course those were going towards "out-groups".
I can't tell is that is boring or annoying...
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Now to head off the inevitable cries of 'political screed': I don't claim that the democrats/the left have every answer, but far more of the policies like Medicare for All
yup that will reduce spending.
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, pushing for an Equal Rights Amendment,
keep pushing...  this country only tries to provide equal opportunity not equal results.
Quote from: title IX
Title IX, clause of the 1972 Federal Education Amendments, which stated that 'no person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.'

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creation of the CFPB,
create it again?

Vote for Elizabeth Warren she really likes it....  BTW funding the CFPB outside congressional oversight is not constitutional.
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and expansion of voting rights,
citizens already have the right to vote, who else do you have in mind for granting the vote?
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fall more often than not into the idea of enveloping everyone under the umbrella of an 'in-group', more than excluding others in 'out-groups'.
Yes it is getting annoying...     for you entertainment https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF7KU50IY34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF7KU50IY34)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on May 06, 2020, 01:52:55 PM
I thought it bound everyone, and protects everyone.
...
citizens already have the right to vote, who else do you have in mind for granting the vote?
...
this country only tries to provide equal opportunity not equal results
Ask a minority, or better yet a woman of color, how the right to vote and 'protecting everyone' is working out.  And while you are at it, ask that same woman, or even a gay couple, how equal rights is applied in practice. 

'equal results' doesn't even appear in the last draft of the ERA, so to steal a phrase, 'cute, and nice try'.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 06, 2020, 03:40:11 PM
Ask a minority, or better yet a woman of color, how the right to vote and 'protecting everyone' is working out. 
[edit] today a video surfaced about an unarmed black jogger shot in GA... something like two prosecutors recused themselves from the case and a grand jury is expected. [/edit]

I generally do not have that conversation with my neighbors of color or minorities, but I do see them in my local polling place on election day without any apparent restrictions. (This is very old and tired screed, the flip side of the vote fraud screed.)
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And while you are at it, ask that same woman, or even a gay couple, how equal rights is applied in practice. 
I don't have any gay couples in my immediate circle of acquaintances. If that doesn't sound homophobic enough I can't find a recent new TV show, or made for TV movie with less than one openly gay couple, some recent shows have two for good measure. No doubt an aggressive social influence campaign to normalize that behavior.

I suspect I have experienced any number over the decades who were not blatant about their sexuality. There was one supply sargeant in the Army who was unusually effeminate, but under "don't ask-don't tell" we didn't ask or care.  Back in the 70s I picked up one hitchhiker on a cold winter night and he grabbed for my third leg, before the car barely got moving, I did not return his advances and let him out immediately since we had very different ideas of what kind of ride I was offering.

I do not care what your sexual appetite includes (except for maybe violating young interns), but don't try to get me to sign up for some other team. After 7 plus decades I have a pretty strong sense of my personal inclinations.   
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'equal results' doesn't even appear in the last draft of the ERA, so to steal a phrase, 'cute, and nice try'.
A swing and a miss...  ::)

That is classic political speech, they aren't going to openly admit that goal. Transferring assets from the wealthy to the poor, has one logical final outcome, everybody ends up with the same (less the overhead cost to redistribute, and lower output due to obvious disincentives). That pretty much describes the current conditions in Cuba or Venezuela, everybody has the same but is poor, except for the government elite overseeing the wealth redistribution.   

We already have a progressive tax schedule, another tired old argument. (Speaking of economic disincentives to work, in the rush to get the covid stimulus/support payments out, they didn't take the time to scale the support payments for local economic conditions, because it would have delayed the legislation several weeks. The unintended consequence of a flat one size fits all payment is that a number of workers are now paid more on unemployment, than what they got paid before while working. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they will be in no hurry to return to work,  only to get paid less (duh).

Any number of minority individuals have experienced great success in America that they attribute to the opportunity they were offered here (and hard work). Of course opinions vary, but this sounds like more old school class warfare in preparation for Nov.

JR

PS: I guess now my detractors will start calling me homophobic in addition to racist, and white supremacist.  ::) Still better than back in the 70s when the anti-viet nam war crowd called me a baby killer (and I was anti-war too). I just got drafted and obeyed the law.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 06, 2020, 04:27:28 PM
There is a great quote from Frank Wilhoit which seems apropos: Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit....

Conservative principles like individual liberty,  limited federal government,  fiscal responsibility, etc, can be very sound and logical.  Republicans,  on the other hand,  are not.  It's important not to conflate the two.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 06, 2020, 04:50:42 PM
We already have a progressive tax schedule, another tired old argument.

It is only very slightly progressive when you factor in all the various taxes paid,  and then only up to a point. Eventually it actually becomes regressive. When you get to 0.1%, .01%, .001% brackets they actually pay less than the middle and upper middle class.  Can an argument be tired and old if it is still valid?

Also the new round of bailouts will cost everyone between $10k-20k each with those at the top getting a disproportionate higher share.  So shouldn't the real backlash be directed at them? The responsible savers are having to subsidize millionaires and billionaires once again.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 06, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Conservative principles like individual liberty,  limited federal government,  fiscal responsibility, etc, can be very sound and logical.  Republicans,  on the other hand,  are not.  It's important not to conflate the two.
opinions vary and both groups think they are correct

JR

[edited to make it nicer   /edit]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on May 06, 2020, 05:31:41 PM
We already have a progressive tax schedule, another tired old argument.
I've tried to parse this for 20 minutes and haven't been successful:  what exactly is the relation between the Equal Rights Amendment (guaranteeing equal treatment under the law for women) and progressive taxation and Venezuela?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 06, 2020, 06:39:03 PM
Went for q2week grocery shopping today - no TP.  I guess the folks insisting we "go back to normal" are preparing for that second wave that they will be causing.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on May 06, 2020, 09:23:33 PM
Conservative principles like individual liberty,  limited federal government,  fiscal responsibility, etc, can be very sound and logical.  Republicans,  on the other hand,  are not.  It's important not to conflate the two.

There's really nothing "conservative" to the deranged Ayn Randian brand of hypocritic hyper-individualist-market fundamentalism of people who have one hand in the cookie jar and use the other hand to push others down a cliff while scolding them (mouth full) for not being able to fly.

The majority of Democrats in the US today are what a conservative party by normal (postwar) standards looks like. Normal (postwar) conservatives are not revolutionaries, extremists or trolls, they are steady, deliberate, boring, looking for balance - rationality mixed with tradition. Like Angela Merkel or George H. W. Bush.

I really wonder why so few people on the right, who follow Trump because he appoints judges they like, while ignoring completely that he couldn't care less WRT to any policy positions and just does it to achieve his own narrow goals, do not appear to be bothered by it. Johnson was kind of like that - and Democrats hated the guy. Republicans today have no comparable sense of decency.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on May 07, 2020, 12:15:46 AM
There's really nothing "conservative" to the deranged Ayn Randian brand of hypocratic hyper-individualist-market fundamentalism of people who have one hand in the cookie jar and use the other hand to push others down a cliff while scolding them (mouth full) for not being able to fly.
Wie schön! I'll have to remember this one.

The simple answer to your proposition is something something different movies something something.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on May 07, 2020, 07:44:11 AM
Wie schön! I'll have to remember this one.

The simple answer to your proposition is something something different movies something something.

The correct word was "hypocritic", corrected it (it was late when I wrote that).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 07, 2020, 08:01:54 AM
Went for q2week grocery shopping today - no TP.  I guess the folks insisting we "go back to normal" are preparing for that second wave that they will be causing.
LOL  ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 07, 2020, 08:57:49 AM
It is only very slightly progressive when you factor in all the various taxes paid,  and then only up to a point. Eventually it actually becomes regressive. When you get to 0.1%, .01%, .001% brackets they actually pay less than the middle and upper middle class.  Can an argument be tired and old if it is still valid?

Also the new round of bailouts will cost everyone between $10k-20k each with those at the top getting a disproportionate higher share.  So shouldn't the real backlash be directed at them? The responsible savers are having to subsidize millionaires and billionaires once again.
Maybe later I may do a deep dive on progressive taxation, but coincidentally if we inspect the current complaints going on about states that pay more in federal taxes than they get back and states that pay less this is prima facia evidence of progression in the tax rate.

Low earning states (like MS) pay less taxes because of the lower earnings, states with high earners pay more taxes... QED.

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 07, 2020, 09:47:20 AM
Sorry for change of topic, but
(1) I am less interested in exclusively US Covid politics (by now aka 'US elections coming up -- can you feel it darling ?')
(2) today I was wondering how Cvd19 will play out with regard to international travel in mid to long run.

I mean, if the numbers of infections keep developping disparately around the world, travel bans will be prolonged, that is, from countries with high numbers of infections to countries with few numbers and countries that have acted early and largely succeed in suppressing the virus.

Way too early to tell (-- and I must confess that my prognostic powers need a bit of a rest after foreseeing the prolonged state of emergency in Japan  :-X --) but practically that would mean that there will be no more travelling to Australia, New Zealand and parts of Asia for many nations, especially many European countries and the entire US -- and that for quite a while...
-------
Read a few days ago that the Swedish population has grown increasingly dissatisfied with their government's initial response, as numbers of infections and deaths go up. Not sure and Swedes on this forum def. know more detail.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 07, 2020, 12:04:30 PM
Went for q2week grocery shopping today - no TP.  I guess the folks insisting we "go back to normal" are preparing for that second wave that they will be causing.
Today was my first grocery trip wearing a proper N95 mask (thanks Scott), not very comfortable and harder to breath (duh). I can't imagine wearing one 12 hours a day. More respect for the health professionals.

My local wally world had TP piled up by the door last week so perhaps that hoarding binge has run its course here at last.

old items on my shopping list I still could not find; Brown Rice (not the instant processed poop, but real slow cook brown rice, moth eggs and all). I couldn't find baking yeast either.

The paper towels aisle was bare....  (I just ordered some from their website)

The meat pantry was just being loaded, so I did my vegetable shopping while I waited for the beef... I snagged one of the only two chuck roasts he put out. So I'm set for another week (I actually get 8 servings from one roast like this, so my freezer inventory will be +1 for the week).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 07, 2020, 12:53:24 PM
Sorry for change of topic, but
(1) I am less interested in exclusively US Covid politics (by now aka 'US elections coming up -- can you feel it darling ?')
sadly yes, but partisan enmity has been high for the last few years, hard to imagine it getting worse, but of course it will.
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(2) today I was wondering how Cvd19 will play out with regard to international travel in mid to long run.
I just hooked up (via phone) with an old friend who recently changed jobs (laid off).. all his contact info was on his old company phone they kept (I found him via linked in).   Long story shorter he was in China on business when the sh__ hit the fan (not in Wuhan region). Flying home one short hop was in a small 3 seat wide puddle jumper and he was seated next to an oriental man, wearing a mask, who was coughing and sneezing in the gate area.  :o Luckily a kind stewardess let him move into an empty single seat she was going to use for herself, and she used the jump seat. 
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I mean, if the numbers of infections keep developping disparately around the world, travel bans will be prolonged, that is, from countries with high numbers of infections to countries with few numbers and countries that have acted early and largely succeed in suppressing the virus.
It is hard to trust many numbers as being accurate and comparable. The US has changed their models (variables) a few times, and media happily argues about projections for some dismal future.

This could all change with effective vaccines. While these normally take years to test and approve, multiple companies are pedaling as fast as they can, with some companies even partnering with competitors to get vaccines developed faster.

Airlines are spacing flyers further apart while planes are not full, but that unprofitable business model is not sustainable. The market is pushing back against charging extra for spacing. Sorry if I am starting to sound like a broken record but this seems like another ideal application for farUVc. Short wavelength UV light (207-222nm) that doesn't harm humans while cooking microbes. Studies find more contamination on airplane tray tables than airplane flush handles.

I wonder if every passenger opens up the air nozzle full pressure pointed at their face, can the plane's air circulation system maintain much pressure?
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Way too early to tell (-- and I must confess that my prognostic powers need a bit of a rest after foreseeing the prolonged state of emergency in Japan  :-X --) but practically that would mean that there will be no more travelling to Australia, New Zealand and parts of Asia for many nations, especially many European countries and the entire US -- and that for quite a while...
-------

My friend who is a business development manager for an EMS provider traveled a lot before in his last job, and is itching to get back on the road, so he can engage his customers face to face... His typical dealing is with high level corporate executives and he can't even get them on the phone, let alone video conferencing, these days. 
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Read a few days ago that the Swedish population has grown increasingly dissatisfied with their government's initial response, as numbers of infections and deaths go up. Not sure and Swedes on this forum def. know more detail.
It is probably too early to judge them a success or failure, the world is, or should be watching.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 07, 2020, 01:07:24 PM
Hm, spacing on planes, yeah, well. Don't know about the rest of the world, but there is almost no air traffic from and to Japan for the time being (goods, yes -- passengers, no).

They had changed from obligatory 14 -day quarantine on landing to denial of permission to enter (unless exceptional circumstances).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 07, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
Maybe later I may do a deep dive on progressive taxation, but coincidentally if we inspect the current complaints going on about states that pay more in federal taxes than they get back and states that pay less this is prima facia evidence of progression in the tax rate.

Low earning states (like MS) pay less taxes because of the lower earnings, states with high earners pay more taxes... QED.

JR

More populated states would generally pay more in total,  so it doesn't inherently show anything.

Here you can see that taxes actually go down for the .01% and. 001% at the federal level. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeldurkheimer/2018/03/01/0-001-percent-one-percent/#5eb91af12cf2

When you look at total taxation , payroll taxes,  gas taxes, sales tax etc  the situation gets even more grim for the average working person.  Some things need to be fixed at the state and local level,  and some at the federal.

Furthermore long term investments are already advantaged due to compounding and capital allocation.  Absolutely no reason to give them a tax break on top of that.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 07, 2020, 11:36:00 PM
More populated states would generally pay more in total,  so it doesn't inherently show anything.
Ironically perhaps Steve Forbes ran for president on his flat tax campaign (he did not win). 

our tax code is a swiss cheese rats nest of loopholes and exclusions.
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Here you can see that taxes actually go down for the .01% and. 001% at the federal level. 
I am too lazy to look up which logical fallacy that is but their rate does not go down because they are uber-wealthy, but the wealthy can afford better tax accountants. This sounds a little like the old Warren Buffet screed where he noted that his secretary paid a higher tax rate than he did (not more taxes, but at a higher rate against much less income). 
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https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeldurkheimer/2018/03/01/0-001-percent-one-percent/#5eb91af12cf2
That article appeared to describe how much more the wealthy pay... the distinction about the 0.01% is just more class warfare. 
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When you look at total taxation , payroll taxes,  gas taxes, sales tax etc  the situation gets even more grim for the average working person.  Some things need to be fixed at the state and local level,  and some at the federal.
Do you have a proposal other than to tax the wealthy more?

When I walked away from my last decent paying job, and started my current business (BTW what are drummers doing these days, they sure aren't buying tuners?) my tax bracket dropped so low that I converted my regular IRA to a roth and went ahead and paid taxes on them at the very modest rate I enjoyed from that lower tax bracket... Now my roth is completely tax free... So the swamp dwellers can't get it, unless they change the law again...(they keep trying). 

Talking about regressive taxes how about sales taxes, or lottery tickets?
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Furthermore long term investments are already advantaged due to compounding and capital allocation. 
Please explain what that means? I have been investing in the stock market since the 70s and can't recognize those advantages.

[edit- made that since the 60's.. I vaguely recall needing my mother's signature to open a stock trading account because I wasn't 21 yet, and then when I got drafted I couldn't exactly call my broker to manage my account and lost what money I had made. In fact I recall the year I was drafted (1970) I lost more money in the stock market than the US Army paid me. Not a lot of money but added insult to injury.  /edit]

Compounding generally refers to re-investing dividends but in a taxable account you pay taxes on the dividend income when you get it (at least I do). Not sure what you mean by "capital allocation",  an accounting term for which pocket you put your cash in. I don't recall a line on the 1040 tax return, or any possible advantage from that.   

Further long term investments get screwed by inflation.... If I bought a $1,000 of IBM stock and inflation increased that stock price to $2,500, I'd have to pay taxes on a $1,500 gain when sold, even if adjusted for inflation the true value went down....
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Absolutely no reason to give them a tax break on top of that.
those evil wealthy people.  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 08, 2020, 08:41:47 AM
our tax code is a swiss cheese rats nest of loopholes and exclusions.

It is indeed a mess and should be completely overhauled.

I am too lazy to look up which logical fallacy that is but their rate does not go down because they are uber-wealthy, but the wealthy can afford better tax accountants. This sounds a little like the old Warren Buffet screed where he noted that his secretary paid a higher tax rate than he did (not more taxes, but at a higher rate against much less income). 
That article appeared to describe how much more the wealthy pay... the distinction about the 0.01% is just more class warfare.

From the article, the 1% paid a 27.1.% rate, while the .001% paid a 23.9% rate.  How are facts logical fallacies or class warfare? Note: I'm not even saying what the tax  rates should be, only that I can't see how a reasonable person can say the above is fair. Uber wealthy rates go down in part because the current system unfairly punishes labor.

And what's wrong with Buffet's comments? Do you think it's fair that his secretary paid a higher tax rate than him?

Do you have a proposal other than to tax the wealthy more?

I'm not actually saying we should or shouldn't tax the wealthy more, only that the current system is unfair.  The proposal is get rid of the whole system, no loopholes, deductions exemptions, etc. Treat all income the same. One page returns with no accountants needed (they might not like that). You made X dollars? Times it by Y. Done.

Y could be an equation or a  flat percentage. Or maybe even 0 and you get the money in other ways The important thing is we examine ALL taxes to make an optimal determination.

Here is an article looking at total taxation. In total it is not as progressive as many think
https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/

Talking about regressive taxes how about sales taxes, or lottery tickets?

Yes, reform those as well.

Please explain what that means? I have been investing in the stock market since the 70s and can't recognize those advantages.

Person A starts with $1000, gets X% yearly return, pays Y% tax. Pays tax on gains only at the end.
Person B starts with $1000, gets X% yearly return, pays Y% tax. Pays tax on gains every year.

After many years Person A has more money (tax advantaged compounding), often way more.

Person B would be forced to put in more money each year to keep up.  Person A can also strategically choose when to exit the investment.

Further long term investments get screwed by inflation.... If I bought a $1,000 of IBM stock and inflation increased that stock price to $2,500, I'd have to pay taxes on a $1,500 gain when sold, even if adjusted for inflation the true value went down.

True. But labor and savings get screwed even more.

... those evil wealthy people.  ::)

Some have gotten there through hard work.  Others by rigging the system to their advantage. Why lump them all together and continue to defend the latter? One could  argue that monetary policy is an even bigger issue than taxation in causing the unfair imbalance and rigged system.

I think we have fully veered away from covid politics into straight on politics :)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 08, 2020, 01:03:24 PM
It is indeed a mess and should be completely overhauled.
Good luck, Steve Forbes was soundly rejected when he tried to scrape off multiple deductions and drastically simplify the tax code.

Alexis de Tocqueville (french social scientist and historian) warned in the 1830s that the US democracy was doomed when legislators figure out they can bribe the voters with their own money. I believe he was correct in that warning.
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From the article, the 1% paid a 27.1.% rate, while the .001% paid a 23.9% rate.  How are facts logical fallacies or class warfare?
It is fallacious because their tax rate does not drop "because" they earn more money.
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Note: I'm not even saying what the tax  rates should be, only that I can't see how a reasonable person can say the above is fair.
(https://assets.amuniversal.com/f4f165d0ae6b01341f1d005056a9545d)
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Uber wealthy rates go down in part because the current system unfairly punishes labor.
There we go again with fairness again....consider simple supply/demand... labor is cheap and getting cheaper with globalization and automation. Capital is dear (scarce) so earn higher returns (at least it used to, these low interest rates suck for old farts like me.)
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And what's wrong with Buffet's comments? Do you think it's fair that his secretary paid a higher tax rate than him?
Fair? I love Warren Buffett, he is pretty much the smartest man in any room he is in. That screed he raised about his secretary's tax rate was pandering to the then democratic administration perhaps to get better treatment from regulators (smart). It clearly distracted everybody away from how he has structured his personal paydays. Warren gets paid exactly one share of his company stock (BRK/A)  each year.  Don't feel sorry for him, that one share trades for $262,500 ea. Of course being uber-rich he has that structured as "at risk" capital return for favorable tax treatment, exactly like those wall street hedge funds we love to hate. I have owned a position in BRK/B the cheap Berkshire stock for years. It only costs around $175 a share.  8)

For another observation about Buffett, if he trusted the government to spend wisely he wouldn't have put his personal billions into private charities (like the Bill Gates charity).
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I'm not actually saying we should or shouldn't tax the wealthy more, only that the current system is unfair.
;)   
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The proposal is get rid of the whole system, no loopholes, deductions exemptions, etc. Treat all income the same. One page returns with no accountants needed (they might not like that). You made X dollars? Times it by Y. Done.
Seriously, removing all the deductions will hurt poor families the worst. Removing mortgage deductions will harm home owners (and sellers). Paid off my mortgage decades ago and have never itemized deductions. In fact I never filed a homestead deduction that would reduce my local property taxes because I can see how stretched my town's finances are.
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Y could be an equation or a  flat percentage. Or maybe even 0 and you get the money in other ways The important thing is we examine ALL taxes to make an optimal determination.
What you think is optimal? or me...  ::)
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Here is an article looking at total taxation. In total it is not as progressive as many think
https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/
They claim to be non-partisan but parrot the same wealth transfer screed....
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Yes, reform those as well.

Person A starts with $1000, gets X% yearly return, pays Y% tax. Pays tax on gains only at the end.

Person B starts with $1000, gets X% yearly return, pays Y% tax. Pays tax on gains every year.

After many years Person A has more money (tax advantaged compounding), often way more.
please clarify when are those gains recognized? Under current law only when the investments are sold (while dividends and interest recognized when issued. )
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Person B would be forced to put in more money each year to keep up.  Person A can also strategically choose when to exit the investment.
keep up with who....   

You seem to gloss over that standard IRA account investments are made with pre-tax income, so the retirement contribution gets the benefit of not having to pay taxes, until decades later when funds are withdrawn. The presumption is that tax rates on a retirees income will be lower than during peak earning.

I converted my regular IRA to roth paying taxes on the value at the time, for the benefit of not being taxed later. I trust the government to not raise taxes about as far as I can throw them... Just this year they have spent trillions of dollars that we will ultimately be responsible for, and they aren't finished spending yet. 
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True. But labor and savings get screwed even more.
I have lived frugally most of my adult life. I drive a 20+ YO car, and have decided not to replace a trashed knee joint. Low interest rates suck... I have exactly one CD left paying 2.75% but it expires in July and I can't roll it over into anything close. At my age I should own mostly bonds but with those crappy interest rates I just can't make myself.

I haven't considered myself "labor" since I was in my teens, maybe as a boot in the army I was labor, but even then as a pfc I was a clerk working in Battalion level headquarters.
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Some have gotten there through hard work.  Others by rigging the system to their advantage. Why lump them all together and continue to defend the latter?
So why lump them all together and demonize them all...
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One could  argue that monetary policy is an even bigger issue than taxation in causing the unfair imbalance and rigged system.
you could.... to promote political divisiveness. Monetary policy is not the only train that is off the tracks.
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I think we have fully veered away from covid politics into straight on politics :)
we?   I started a separate thread for pure politics (talking points like this certainly is).

This is just a reminder of today's  hyper partisan environment making it impossible to ignore politics.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 08, 2020, 05:47:28 PM
It is fallacious because their tax rate does not drop "because" they earn more money.

No one is arguing that.

There we go again with fairness again....

Yes, lets get rid of the concept of fairness in government and relegate it to that of childhood wonder.  Life is not fair, I agree, but that doesn't mean government shouldn't be. We should DEMAND fairness from all public service, government, police, legal system, etc. Is that unreasonable? The fact that you are resorting to comics means you are losing the argument :)

consider simple supply/demand... labor is cheap and getting cheaper with globalization and automation. Capital is dear (scarce) so earn higher returns (at least it used to, these low interest rates suck for old farts like me.)

Yes, but let's apply supply and demand to EVERYTHING, you can't do it for labor and then not do it for money. Capital has not been dear (scarce) for a long time. Who has benefited the most from it? There is 30-40 years of data showing the result. It's really not that hard to make tons of money when you have access to boatloads of virtually free risk free capital.

Fair? I love Warren Buffett, he is pretty much the smartest man in any room he is in. That screed he raised about his secretary's tax rate was pandering to the then democratic administration perhaps to get better treatment from regulators (smart). It clearly distracted everybody away from how he has structured his personal paydays. Warren gets paid exactly one share of his company stock (BRK/A)  each year.  Don't feel sorry for him, that one share trades for $262,500 ea. Of course being uber-rich he has that structured as "at risk" capital return for favorable tax treatment, exactly like those wall street hedge funds we love to hate. I have owned a position in BRK/B the cheap Berkshire stock for years. It only costs around $175 a share.  8)

I used to own BRKB back when it was 1/100 of BRKA, I'm guessing it split at some point since then. His salary is peanuts, a token gesture. The real money is the total stock he owns, which incidentally he avoids taxes on by not paying dividends and then acquiring other companies. So he is a bit disingenuous, and will do what's best for him (see recent airline transactions). But that doesn't mean his statements were invalid.

Seriously, removing all the deductions will hurt poor families the worst. Removing mortgage deductions will harm home owners (and sellers). Paid off my mortgage decades ago and have never itemized deductions. In fact I never filed a homestead deduction that would reduce my local property taxes because I can see how stretched my town's finances are.

Deductions come at the expense of those that don't get them. Renters are the ones who are actually hurt by the mortgage deductions. I'm not arguing that taxes on home owners should go up, only that no group should receive preferential treatment. There I go again with my childhood fantasies about fairness.

What you think is optimal? or me...  ::)

You, me, others can debate that. But if you and I, who are of similar limited government ideologies, can't even agree on how the system is broken. Then what hope can we have for the greater political divide?

please clarify when are those gains recognized? Under current law only when the investments are sold (while dividends and interest recognized when issued. )keep up with who....   

You seem to gloss over that standard IRA account investments are made with pre-tax income, so the retirement contribution gets the benefit of not having to pay taxes, until decades later when funds are withdrawn. The presumption is that tax rates on a retirees income will be lower than during peak earning.

Not talking about IRAs, but they are a good example of a tax advantaged account. It is beneficial, even at the same tax rates, to pay the tax decades later.

Capital gains has this same edge since gains can be realized at one's optimal choosing, even put off indefinitely (see Buffet). Labor gains are forcibly taxed every year. Therefore labor is at a disadvantage even at the same rate. You don't need a difference in rate on top of that. 

Just this year they have spent trillions of dollars that we will ultimately be responsible for, and they aren't finished spending yet. 

Yes, and very little of the trillions went to those that actually need it. This was the original covid related topic that I veered from. Just more of the same government favoritism. Oops, sorry to bring up fairness again. But wait, don't you constantly rail against the government picking winners and losers, does that mean you actually care about fairness as well?

Low interest rates suck...

Yes they do, so why are we at odds on monetary policy then?

So why lump them all together and demonize them all

I'm not (though I realize some do). There are the reasonable ones who are actual capitalists.

...you could.... to promote political divisiveness. Monetary policy is not the only train that is off the tracks.

I don't see how monetary policy is a partisan issue, as both sides are well on board the easy money gravy train. The only ones who bring it up are outsiders and fringe candidates.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 08, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
No one is arguing that.

Yes, lets get rid of the concept of fairness in government and relegate it to that of childhood wonder.  Life is not fair, I agree, but that doesn't mean government shouldn't be. We should DEMAND fairness from all public service, government, police, legal system, etc. Is that unreasonable? The fact that you are resorting to comics means you are losing the argument :)
The comic should be less offensive than me just saying that.

"Fairness" is not an objective metric... Comparing wealth or other outcomes is flawed...
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Yes, but let's apply supply and demand to EVERYTHING, you can't do it for labor and then not do it for money. Capital has not been dear (scarce) for a long time.
and I've been warning about this for a long time, but still apples and oranges compared to labor... capitalism is all about putting wealth at risk. There is a whole generation growing up in these distorted easy money times. 
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Who has benefited the most from it? There is 30-40 years of data showing the result. It's really not that hard to make tons of money when you have access to boatloads of virtually free risk free capital.
Then why ain't I rich? (I am compared to some at least in Hickory ).

I may be repeating myself but the central bank easing since 2007-8 was to mitigate the housing bubble collapse and promote a wealth effect to keep consumers feeling confident and spending.
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I used to own BRKB back when it was 1/100 of BRKA, I'm guessing it split at some point since then.
Guess again, the math is not that hard I posted the price of BRK/A and BRK/B in my post. The ratio is more like 1000x.
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His salary is peanuts, a token gesture.
I believe he already has more than enough wealth to satisfy his immediate needs. Indeed he is so wealthy he has to work to figure out how to dispose of it after he dies. He has already determined he doesn't want the government to get it.

It is an all too common theme from wealthy people to support higher income taxes, because they already got theirs. They want higher income taxes on other up and comers so they can't catch up to them. Of course ask the uber-wealthy about their opinions on a wealth tax.  :o
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The real money is the total stock he owns, which incidentally he avoids taxes on by not paying dividends and then acquiring other companies.
are you talking about him personally or Berkshire Hathaway the company?

In fact I am not scared to hold BRK/B with him and Charlie Munger (his business partner) older than dirt, because I would not be surprised to see them start paying dividends after his death. Of course I can not predict the future.
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So he is a bit disingenuous, and will do what's best for him (see recent airline transactions). But that doesn't mean his statements were invalid.
huh?  He is sitting on a huge cash pile but not buying companies because he perceives that the market prices are distorted (too high). I am inclined to agree with him, if I was younger I'd buy a bigger house, but I'll pass.....
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Deductions come at the expense of those that don't get them. Renters are the ones who are actually hurt by the mortgage deductions.
and what about the home owners helped? There is a positive association with home ownership so the government promoted that. (I never itemized and took a mortgage deduction). I paid off the mortgage I assumed when I purchased this house,  because it was an easy way to get that much return on my cash.
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I'm not arguing that taxes on home owners should go up, only that no group should receive preferential treatment. There I go again with my childhood fantasies about fairness.
I am not a fan of government trying to incentivize their idea of good behavior with tax policy, but sadly that is what they do.

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You, me, others can debate that. But if you and I, who are of similar limited government ideologies, can't even agree on how the system is broken. Then what hope can we have for the greater political divide?
I am not much of follower, despite what people think...  we agree on enough, take that as a win.
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Not talking about IRAs, but they are a good example of a tax advantaged account. It is beneficial, even at the same tax rates, to pay the tax decades later.
I believe it nets out... the benefit is enjoying lower tax rates after peak earning years, so you pay a lower rate on withdrawal.
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Capital gains has this same edge since gains can be realized at one's optimal choosing, even put off indefinitely (see Buffet).
if you don't take capital gains they remain at risk and can be lost.... trust me I lost a pile when the dot com bubble burst. (see JR)
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Labor gains are forcibly taxed every year. Therefore labor is at a disadvantage even at the same rate. You don't need a difference in rate on top of that. 
Do you mean income?
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Yes, and very little of the trillions went to those that actually need it. This was the original covid related topic that I veered from. Just more of the same government favoritism. Oops, sorry to bring up fairness again. But wait, don't you constantly rail against the government picking winners and losers, does that mean you actually care about fairness as well?

Yes they do, so why are we at odds on monetary policy then?

I'm not (though I realize some do). There are the reasonable ones who are actual capitalists.

I don't see how monetary policy is a partisan issue, as both sides are well on board the easy money gravy train. The only ones who bring it up are outsiders and fringe candidates.
you are wearing me out... I need a break...(actually I need another beer).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on May 08, 2020, 07:35:36 PM
I suspect I have experienced any number over the decades who were not blatant about their sexuality. There was one supply sargeant in the Army who was unusually effeminate, but under "don't ask-don't tell" we didn't ask or care. 

I recently saw an interview with an ex Navy Seal who is trans. She said that there is a higher than average number of trans people in these hyper masculine jobs. Probably why military brass is against the ban. I was surprised that a significant percentage of elite soldiers are trans.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Tubetec on May 08, 2020, 08:45:40 PM
Sorry but the endless cycle of re-quote and answer is painful to read,
not to mention the waste of storage space  :D

Seal division gets a lot of dirty work to do , clean up opperations to keep a lid on political f**k up's ,
there life expectancy isnt good after retirement , was one guy who retired with his wife here to west Cork , diver by trade ,went out one day for his usual scuba dive in the bay ,found washed up with a broken sternum ,barely made it into his his 50's .

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/former-us-navy-seal-died-in-solo-dive-20795.html

More than likely the military have had ways of manipulating peoples hormones for years ,
what better way to discredit an ex member of staff who gets out alive but with enough dirt to cave in the whole show , the Chelsea (formerly Brad) Manning case is the obvious one.
Plenty of evidence lying around to show project Mk Ultra, Syd Gotlieb and OSS had an interest in those kinds of Psy-ops methodologies.

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 09, 2020, 12:25:16 AM
Guess again, the math is not that hard I posted the price of BRK/A and BRK/B in my post. The ratio is more like 1000x.

Huh? Obviously it is 1500x now, did I claim otherwise? Perhaps you don't know the history of BRKB, but it was originally issued at a lower ratio. What I actually said is I used to own it, at a lower ratio (I recall the $2k price range), therefore figured it split at some point (which it did in 2010 now that I looked it up). If you wanted to point out it was originally 30x before that, fine, that would be welcome. But instead you bring up math skills, for the price now, which I never actually commented on  ::)

So at this point I really can't tell, do you not comprehend what is written, or do you intentionally ignore it in order to lob unrelated insults.

you are wearing me out... I need a break...(actually I need another beer).

Finally something we can agree on.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 09, 2020, 10:01:33 AM
...back to COVID politics/policy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/09/us/south-dakota-sioux-tribes/index.html

"They must complete a health questionnaire when they leave and when they return every time they go through a checkpoint."

SD governor has given these 2 Indian Tribes 48 hours to cease using these checkpoints going onto their reservations/land. This is as Republican as it gets. FINALLY someone is being proactive and logical concerning this pandemic and a jackass interferes. Please note political affiliation once again. Last I checked, that is their land. They were here first. Yet another Caucasian doing and taking what they want. Maybe they could hand out some Trump branded smallpox blankets at the checkpoints before the governor eliminates these LOGICAL checkpoints. You can't make this stuff up. Freedom. 'Murica. If we ignore this it will go away.... it's in the White House this week. The only way for logic to prevail would be for the virus to do its job in D.C. first. ;)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 09, 2020, 10:36:06 AM
Huh? Obviously it is 1500x now, did I claim otherwise? Perhaps you don't know the history of BRKB, but it was originally issued at a lower ratio. What I actually said is I used to own it, at a lower ratio (I recall the $2k price range), therefore figured it split at some point (which it did in 2010 now that I looked it up). If you wanted to point out it was originally 30x before that, fine, that would be welcome. But instead you bring up math skills, for the price now, which I never actually commented on  ::)
I stand corrected.... I have owned it for years and forgot about the split. I just looked up the history too.

For TMI, years ago when a young friend invited me to his wedding in CO, I didn't feel like paying for airfare and hotel rooms to visit with two families I didn't know. Instead I gave him the money I would have spent and told him to invest it in BRK/B to use toward a down payment on a house. Last time I talked with him about stocks he still owns that BRK/B position, but is on his second or third house, with 2 kids, etc.
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So at this point I really can't tell, do you not comprehend what is written, or do you intentionally ignore it in order to lob unrelated insults.
maybe I didn't tap out soon enough...  No insult intended but some of the investment theory discussed still does not seem to add up.
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Finally something we can agree on.
yup

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 09, 2020, 11:12:00 AM
The president’s valet driver tested positive. The Vice President’s press secretary tested positive. Ivanka Trump’s personal assistant just tested positive.  Open the country!!!

LIBERATE WASHINGTON D.C.!!!

South Korea has “re-opened” after showing the world how to successfully deal with the pandemic... and now they are again closing bars and nightclubs because of a spike in cases attributed to these venues. Open America. Freedom.... jackasses. Political affiliation most closely related to these big, great, wonderful ideas.... one guess.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 09, 2020, 04:17:45 PM
...and not even a mention at Fox News or Breitbart. Fake news, I guess. Top headline at Breitbart: 73% of US adults blame China for US Covid deaths. Way to go Republicans. Your head clown(plus the freedom ideology) is the real issue and now you want to fight the biggest country in the world. Genius. Bring the pain.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on May 10, 2020, 02:06:33 AM
I saw a stencil on the sidewalk today. “Covfefe 19”. Kinda says it all. I think I’m going to get a jersey that says it.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 10, 2020, 11:41:31 AM
I have never even been to Breitbart but had to look to see this.....

This is where Steve Bannon came from prior to the general election DJT campaign 2015/16. He then became the president's main advisor and contributed to the "America First" slogan/ideology started and stated at the 2017 Presidential inauguration.
Also promoted by this campaign and administration(which I have mentioned before) is the deconstruction of the administrative state.
     If you would like a real "treat" from society, find a "hot topic" by maximum total comment count on Breitbart. Entertain yourself with the provided comments on said "hot topic". Then, to understand what is going on in society, SAFELY ASSume that this is a close representation 25% of all Trump supporters which is mathematically 10% of society(42% approval ratings..etc) given the statistically dependable results of a bell curve.  This means that 10% of society goes batsh*t crazy and 32% don't say anything when they know it's wrong because of ideology, religion, whatever...freedom... 'Murica. This all said and the illogical, selfish are still in control. Breitbart was/still is in the White House.
     Keep yourself informed and point out atrocities when you find them to watch those on the right squirm as they protect their single "issue" and let the idiocy continue. If White supremacists and Nazi supporters approve and support this president and his policies, it should raise HUGE red flags for anyone who supports this current administration and says these appalling ideologies are wrong.
     Back to the thread topic... 73% of US blames China for COVID. From what I have read, I believe this was not lab/human originated.  As far as I can tell, China did NOT maliciously force this virus on the world. If they did, as the right is pushing, then our self-proclaimed "war-time" president lost that war(BIGLY). I do not believe this scenario to be true.
     I do believe they under reported the contagious nature of the virus to get a handle on PPE before worldwide shortages occurred. Trump administration sent them 18 TONS of PPE in February when sh*thead was claiming "democratic hoax". He claims he's got a very good brain, but he was DUPED to the Nth degree while ignoring his top level scientific advisors. He would have done rhe same thing if he was smart enough, but he's NOT... that's why no one should blame China. Americans want to believe that this unfortunate situation was someone else's fault, but just like getting a "F" on a paper, it's always because you didn't do what you should have, early enough. Countries who have done best looked inwardly and cooperated as a whole. We have done neither of those things. FIGHT AGAINST FIGHTING CHINA.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 11, 2020, 01:22:38 AM
the only way for logic to prevail would be for the virus to do its job in D.C. first. ;)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/10/politics/mike-pence-self-isolate-coronavirus/index.html

You can't make this stuff up. Bold gamble.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 11, 2020, 10:57:48 AM
This is where Steve Bannon came from prior to the general election DJT campaign 2015/16. He then became the president's main advisor and contributed to the "America First" slogan/ideology started and stated at the 2017 Presidential inauguration.
Also promoted by this campaign and administration(which I have mentioned before) is the deconstruction of the administrative state.
Andrew Breitbart RIP (d.2012) was a very smart  conservative journalist.  Steve Bannon is another blowhard (perhaps that is why he got along with President Trump).

Andrew Brietbart was instrumental in changing political reporting and if anything deconstructed (revealed) some of the political team media.
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     If you would like a real "treat" from society, find a "hot topic" by maximum total comment count on Breitbart. Entertain yourself with the provided comments on said "hot topic". Then, to understand what is going on in society, SAFELY ASSume that this is a close representation 25% of all Trump supporters which is mathematically 10% of society(42% approval ratings..etc) given the statistically dependable results of a bell curve.  This means that 10% of society goes batsh*t crazy and 32% don't say anything when they know it's wrong because of ideology, religion, whatever...freedom... 'Murica. This all said and the illogical, selfish are still in control. Breitbart was/still is in the White House.
I ASSume 'murica is pejorative about America , or at least some Americans.
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     Keep yourself informed and point out atrocities when you find them to watch those on the right squirm as they protect their single "issue" and let the idiocy continue. If White supremacists and Nazi supporters approve and support this president and his policies, it should raise HUGE red flags for anyone who supports this current administration and says these appalling ideologies are wrong.
could say the same thing about excesses from the left...
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     Back to the thread topic... 73% of US blames China for COVID. From what I have read, I believe this was not lab/human originated.
Straw man? It does not appear to be man/lab made, but current theory is that it was brought into a Wuhan lab for study (from bats) and accidentally released, or infected a lab worker, who then spread it locally. The research labs in Wuhan have long been criticized for unsafe practices.   
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As far as I can tell, China did NOT maliciously force this virus on the world. If they did, as the right is pushing, then our self-proclaimed "war-time" president lost that war(BIGLY). I do not believe this scenario to be true.
I don't know anybody who does, of course the conspiracy theorists on both sides are working overtime.

OTOH I do not discount the possibility that the Communist party leadership recognized the potential to gain advantage from how they handled this accident.  There is a pattern of behavior that clearly exposed the west to more economic disruption, while China profited.  In a zero sum game world view this is logical, while absolutely horrendous.
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     I do believe they under reported the contagious nature of the virus to get a handle on PPE before worldwide shortages occurred. Trump administration sent them 18 TONS of PPE in February when sh*thead was claiming "democratic hoax".
Your source is a tweet from Maxine Waters?

The hoax claim has been explained before... Trump accused the democrats of using it as their latest hoax to attack him, not that the virus was a hoax.

In hindsight everybody if a F'n genius. Yes, we could have used that PPE, but China clearly needed it at the time and we were working to improve relations with China. The world including me, underestimated the severity of this virus. The WHO did not declare it a pandemic until March, I recall pointing that out here, when I still trusted the WHO as not carrying water for China. In hindsight I should not have trusted the WHO. That is how hindsight works.
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He claims he's got a very good brain, but he was DUPED to the Nth degree while ignoring his top level scientific advisors. He would have done rhe same thing if he was smart enough, but he's NOT... that's why no one should blame China. Americans want to believe that this unfortunate situation was someone else's fault, but just like getting a "F" on a paper, it's always because you didn't do what you should have, early enough. Countries who have done best looked inwardly and cooperated as a whole. We have done neither of those things.
I guess we aren't all that smart.
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FIGHT AGAINST FIGHTING CHINA.
Usually after the first couple punches, you realize you are in a fight... If you want to turn the other cheek in a fist fight be my guest.  I trust the Chinese communists even less than I trust the US legislators and politicians (swamp dwellers). President Trump is not a turn the other cheek kind of guy.

It is odd who the anti-Trumpers are reflexively so willing to embrace, out of hatred against President Trump, or is it hatred against 'murica?

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 11, 2020, 10:42:24 PM
The hoax claim has been explained before... Trump accused the democrats of using it as their latest hoax to attack him, not that the virus was a hoax.

Definition of hoax (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb


: to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous

Please explain your definition of the verb/noun. I am confused. Enlighten me.
Your source is a tweet from Maxine Waters?
No. Some Republican, white guy. Mike Pompeo, I think. U.S. Secretary of State. Official Twitter account. Feb 7th. Check it for yourself. Crazy. I'm not sure what you were getting at with the source thing. Please cite a source footnote. I did... without some strange vague dig at WHATEVER reference. The cut/paste thing is painful. I'll continue this in a more logical and fact driven discussion tomorrow. Just figured I'd get the ball rolling.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 12, 2020, 01:41:42 AM
Definition of hoax (Entry 1 of 2)
transitive verb


: to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous

Please explain your definition of the verb/noun. I am confused.
I am not sure if repeating myself will work any better...

President Trump did not call the corona virus a hoax, he said the democratic response blaming him for it was their latest hoax...
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Enlighten me.No. Some Republican, white guy. Mike Pompeo, I think. U.S. Secretary of State. Official Twitter account. Feb 7th. Check it for yourself.
pass
Quote
Crazy. I'm not sure what you were getting at with the source thing. Please cite a source footnote.
Quote from: maxine waters tweet  mar30
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/851658655036583937/Jy4zSIar_normal.jpg)

Maxine Waters

@RepMaxineWaters
 Trump, you incompetent idiot! You sent 18 tons of PPE to China early but ignored warnings & called COVID19 concerns a hoax. You've endangered doctors, nurses, aids, orderlies, & janitors - all risking their lives to save ours. Pray 4 forgiveness for the harm that you're causing!

174K
4:05 PM - Mar 30, 2020
pretty much what you said verbatim... perhaps from the same talking points.
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I did... without some strange vague dig at WHATEVER reference. The cut/paste thing is painful. I'll continue this in a more logical and fact driven discussion tomorrow. Just figured I'd get the ball rolling.
Sorry if this is confusing...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on May 12, 2020, 02:56:06 AM
I find it odd that the dislike of China as a covid firestarter is used to signal or deride someone's political position.  After all,  it is common knowledge they are actively engaged in human rights violations and genocidal treatment of muslims, outmaneuver free markets, treat their citizens like GDP wage bots,  have relaxed rules on carbon emissions for sake of competitive advantage and have deployed a surveillance apparatus upon their own citizens that is breathtaking in scope, to say nothing of the fact they are buying up everyone's debt, and every US president in the last 25+ years has been doing as much trade with them as possible.

Besides, it's not the US Republican opinion of China we should be worried about, it's India's.  A recent tweet from Adhir Ranjan Chowdhury, a politician serving as the Leader of Indian National Congress and a Member of the Berhampore Parliament jumped the shark the other day, going on about the "Sinister designs of yellow expansionists" and "...needing to defang the venomous [Chinese] snakes"...

Edit:   Ha.. Looks like he got a lot of flack for his choice of words, and the tweet was removed:
https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/adhir-ranjan-chowdhury-has-a-warning-for-yellow-expansionist-china-urges-modi-govt-to-accord-diplomatic-recognition-to-taiwan (https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/adhir-ranjan-chowdhury-has-a-warning-for-yellow-expansionist-china-urges-modi-govt-to-accord-diplomatic-recognition-to-taiwan)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on May 12, 2020, 03:30:13 AM
Things do not need to be mutually exclusive.  China certainly deserves blame in this, many countries are of this opinion.  Saying they should be absolved is kinda ridiculous.  It is also true that the US response has been rather poor.  So it is also likewise ridiculous for the US to try and completely excuse their poor behavior because of China.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on May 12, 2020, 05:17:39 AM
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ridiculous for the US to try and completely excuse their poor behavior because of China.

Agreed. The fact we choose to perineally do business with and outsource our production to countries as immoral as China should say it all, irrespective of covid.  Red or blue, we always choose money over human rights whenever it suits us globally.  For example, every year, polls show the majority of citizens desire an end to our presence in the middle east.  Eventually we'll get a blue-tied potus and the whole army of outrage will flip script.  TDS will get swapped for BDS or some other crazy actor.   ::)   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 12, 2020, 09:58:54 AM
I find it odd that the dislike of China as a covid firestarter is used to signal or deride someone's political position.  After all,  it is common knowledge they are actively engaged in human rights violations and genocidal treatment of muslims, outmaneuver free markets, treat their citizens like GDP wage bots,  have relaxed rules on carbon emissions for sake of competitive advantage and have deployed a surveillance apparatus upon their own citizens that is breathtaking in scope, to say nothing of the fact they are buying up everyone's debt, and every US president in the last 25+ years has been doing as much trade with them as possible.

Besides, it's not the US Republican opinion of China we should be worried about, it's India's.  A recent tweet from Adhir Ranjan Chowdhury, a politician serving as the Leader of Indian National Congress and a Member of the Berhampore Parliament jumped the shark the other day, going on about the "Sinister designs of yellow expansionists" and "...needing to defang the venomous [Chinese] snakes"...

Edit:   Ha.. Looks like he got a lot of flack for his choice of words, and the tweet was removed:
https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/adhir-ranjan-chowdhury-has-a-warning-for-yellow-expansionist-china-urges-modi-govt-to-accord-diplomatic-recognition-to-taiwan (https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/adhir-ranjan-chowdhury-has-a-warning-for-yellow-expansionist-china-urges-modi-govt-to-accord-diplomatic-recognition-to-taiwan)
I'd be less worried about words and more about actual military conflict.

"Indian and Chinese troops clash at two sites along disputed Himalayan border"
https://www.janes.com/article/96063/indian-and-chinese-troops-clash-at-two-sites-along-disputed-himalayan-border (https://www.janes.com/article/96063/indian-and-chinese-troops-clash-at-two-sites-along-disputed-himalayan-border)

China has been testing its neighbors in the pacific region. Taiwan has long been a point of contention for communist China..

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 12, 2020, 01:18:06 PM
I see on the news this morning warnings that China is hacking vaccine research sites (and I bet they're not the only ones). So even though millions are going to die from this disease, instead of global cooperation in developing vaccines to save human lives, as usual it's all about the money and industrial espionage on all sides.

I also note the horse's ass in chief (monkey see, monkey do) and his chief sycophant are requiring all white house staffers to wear masks to protect themselves (that's assuming he even knows the reason for the masks), but not wearing them themselves, showing they don't give a sh!t about anybody else, since a person can test negative (even the best tests initially have unreliable sensitivity, not to mention the crappy 15 minute tests they are using) and still be contagious to others.

You just gotta love homo sapiens.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 12, 2020, 02:36:10 PM
I see on the news this morning warnings that China is hacking vaccine research sites (and I bet they're not the only ones). So even though millions are going to die from this disease, instead of global cooperation in developing vaccines to save human lives, as usual it's all about the money and industrial espionage on all sides.
News... ;D...  China's new attack came days after Iran just tried to hack Gilead...  Hacking western company IP is not news, but the recent shift is trying to steal vaccine research. 
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I also note the horse's ass in chief (monkey see, monkey do) and his chief sycophant are requiring all white house staffers to wear masks to protect themselves (that's assuming he even knows the reason for the masks), but not wearing them themselves, showing they don't give a sh!t about anybody else, since a person can test negative (even the best tests initially have unreliable sensitivity, not to mention the crappy 15 minute tests they are using) and still be contagious to others.

You just gotta love homo sapiens.
Sure do, I find it remarkable how hatred for POTUS causes people to suspend any semblance of civility (not that he is gentleman).

I still consider (dust) masks a mostly feel good exercise, but two people both wearing dust masks more than doubles the efficacy.

JR

PS: Of course the high profile spokesmen and women need to set a good example while on TV... Maybe a clever audio expert could invent a mask with a microphone built in for pressers. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 12, 2020, 03:57:36 PM
I find it remarkable how hatred for POTUS causes people to suspend any semblance of civility (not that he is gentleman).
I can't be civil when discussing (IMHO of course) evil. I wouldn't feel hatred for him just as a narcissist who has no ability to feel compassion or empathy for another human being, but because he is in a position of power where the outcomes of his egomaniacal and ignorant thoughts and decisions cause heartbreak, hardship and loss of life for others.
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I still consider (dust) masks a mostly feel good exercise, but two people both wearing dust masks more than doubles the efficacy.
To reiterate, the masks are NOT to protect the wearer, but to keep particulates of the wearer's slobber, boogers and loogies from spewing into the air where others can breathe them in, so  simple cloth masks can be beneficial in decreasing the contagion if everybody wears them.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 12, 2020, 04:27:23 PM
I can't be civil when discussing (IMHO of course) evil. I wouldn't feel hatred for him just as a narcissist who has no ability to feel compassion or empathy for another human being, but because he is in a position of power where the outcomes of his egomaniacal and ignorant thoughts and decisions cause heartbreak, hardship and loss of life for others.
still sounds like partisan mind reading...  but that is only my personal opinion that this isn't warranted, not breaking any rules.
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To reiterate, the masks are NOT to protect the wearer, but to keep particulates of the wearer's slobber, boogers and loogies from spewing into the air where others can breathe them in, so  simple cloth masks can be beneficial in decreasing the contagion if everybody wears them.
Indeed but aerosols can be generated in our lungs that easily pass through cloth masks and hang in the air for tens of minutes. (thus my interest in far/deep UV disinfection). Alternately treatment of circulating air with UVc will kill em, but must be done shielded from sight lines.

I understand that masks are mostly to keep us from transmitting our shedded virus when we are infected. I suspect many people even if infected don't realize it.  Of course cloth masks are better than no masks which is what we'd have if we tried to put everybody in n95 or better. If you want some real political drama, tell everybody to wear masks they can't get.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 12, 2020, 06:29:48 PM
still sounds like partisan mind reading...
No mind reading here, just listening to his talk and reading his tweets.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on May 12, 2020, 07:00:45 PM
Quote
I can't be civil when discussing (IMHO of course) evil. I wouldn't feel hatred for him just as a narcissist who has no ability to feel compassion or empathy for another human being, but because he is in a position of power where the outcomes of his egomaniacal and ignorant thoughts and decisions cause heartbreak, hardship and loss of life for others.

I totally understand your frustration over T, but I think it is misplaced.  The image of top American leadership has become a kayfabe, and Trump is no slouch when it comes to acting out the prewritten parts necessary to sell tickets and rile the crowd.  Recall in Back to the Future where Doc Brown scoffs at Marty's claim that in the future, Ronald Reagan "The Actor" will become president.  Then we got the Terminator.  Now consider that for a time, Drumpf literally played  rolls in the WWF for a stint. His character matched his real-life (fake) business persona perfectly, taking on the image of the 'Rich Evil Manager' in a staged rivalous coup during WrestleMania 23 between himself and WWE Chairman Vince McMahon.

Taking that man too seriously is the equivalent of thinking WWF wrestling is real, and hating "The Heel" for what he did/ or is plotting  to do to "The Face". 
I'm sorry to be so cynical with respect to our system, but I believe to a large degree the office of the presidency as a "Hallowed position", meant to stand-in and represent the will and best natures of the American people, has long since been sold to the MIC and other corporate lobbies, and turned into a 'Work'  (Wrestling-speak for a predetermined, fake fight).  Until we make the purchasing of our top leadership positions a bid-less affair where ideas and track record, not wealth and silver tongues determine eligibility, the next 'Evil Manager' will be acting out the part of the 'Good Manager',  just like all the well-scripted wrestling bouts/narrative arcs of the past.

I'm also sorry for all the air quotes " "  to make points, but that is the type of extra syntax required to explain what I think is going on nowadays*.  What was a shoot, has become a work, and what appears to be a work, often becomes a shoot or even worse, a 'Worked-shoot".

*Thanks to Eric Weinstein for thinking up the kayfabe analogy to account for these crazy times we're living in:
https://www.edge.org/response-detail/11783 (https://www.edge.org/response-detail/11783)

As well as supportive material like this: https://www.jstor.org/stable/44071932 (https://www.jstor.org/stable/44071932)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 12, 2020, 07:27:32 PM
You might be more cynical than me... congrats...  8)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 12, 2020, 10:48:35 PM
Quote
The image of top American leadership has become a kayfabe, and Trump is no slouch when it comes to acting out the prewritten parts necessary to sell tickets and rile the crowd.
Interesting conspiracy theory, but it presupposes the stupidity of a lot of people (a given, unfortunately) and that Trump is able to stay focused on and act a part - not likely. Of course, he could have been chosen for the part just to  be himself, without even knowing what is going on.
Quote
  the next 'Evil Manager' will be acting out the part of the 'Good Manager'
OK by me - give him/her two terms.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on May 13, 2020, 04:18:00 AM
In Hun­gary, the prime min­is­ter can now rule by decree. In Britain, min­is­ters have what a crit­ic called “eye-water­ing” pow­er to detain peo­ple and close bor­ders. Israel’s prime min­is­ter has shut down courts and begun an intru­sive sur­veil­lance of cit­i­zens. Chile has sent the mil­i­tary to pub­lic squares once occu­pied by pro­test­ers. Bolivia has post­poned elec­tions.

As the coro­n­avirus pan­dem­ic brings the world to a jud­der­ing halt and anx­ious cit­i­zens demand action, lead­ers across the globe are invok­ing exec­u­tive pow­ers and seiz­ing vir­tu­al­ly dic­ta­to­r­i­al author­i­ty with scant resis­tance.

Gov­ern­ments and rights groups agree that these extra­or­di­nary times call for extra­or­di­nary mea­sures. States need new pow­ers to shut their bor­ders, enforce quar­an­tines and track infect­ed peo­ple. Many of these actions are pro­tect­ed under inter­na­tion­al rules, con­sti­tu­tion­al lawyers say.

But crit­ics say some gov­ern­ments are using the pub­lic health cri­sis as cov­er to seize new pow­ers that have lit­tle to do with the out­break, with few safe­guards to ensure that their new author­i­ty will not be abused.

The laws are tak­ing swift hold across a broad range of polit­i­cal sys­tems — in author­i­tar­i­an states like Jor­dan, fal­ter­ing democ­ra­cies like Hun­gary, and tra­di­tion­al democ­ra­cies like Britain. And there are few sun­set pro­vi­sions to ensure that the pow­ers will be rescind­ed once the threat pass­es.

“We could have a par­al­lel epi­dem­ic of author­i­tar­i­an and repres­sive mea­sures fol­low­ing close if not on the heels of a health epi­dem­ic,” said Fion­nu­ala Ni Aolain, the Unit­ed Nations Spe­cial Rap­por­teur on coun­tert­er­ror­ism and human rights.

As the new laws broad­en state sur­veil­lance, allow gov­ern­ments to detain peo­ple indef­i­nite­ly and infringe on free­doms of assem­bly and expres­sion, they could also shape civic life, pol­i­tics and economies for decades to come.

The pan­dem­ic is already redefin­ing norms. Inva­sive sur­veil­lance sys­tems in South Korea and Sin­ga­pore, which would have invit­ed cen­sure under nor­mal cir­cum­stances, have been praised for slow­ing infec­tions. Gov­ern­ments that ini­tial­ly crit­i­cized Chi­na for putting mil­lions of its cit­i­zens under lock­down have since fol­lowed suit.

Israel’s prime min­is­ter, Ben­jamin Netanyahu, has autho­rized his country’s inter­nal secu­ri­ty agency to track cit­i­zens using a secret trove of cell­phone data devel­oped for coun­tert­er­ror­ism. By trac­ing people’s move­ments, the gov­ern­ment can pun­ish those who defy iso­la­tion orders with up to six months in prison.

And by order­ing the clos­ing of the nation’s courts, Mr. Netanyahu delayed his sched­uled appear­ance to face cor­rup­tion charges.

In some parts of the world, new emer­gency laws have revived old fears of mar­tial law. The Philip­pine Con­gress passed leg­is­la­tion last week that gave Pres­i­dent Rodri­go Duterte emer­gency pow­ers and $5.4 bil­lion to deal with the pan­dem­ic. Law­mak­ers watered down an ear­li­er draft law that would have allowed the pres­i­dent to take over pri­vate busi­ness­es.

“This lim­it­less grant of emer­gency pow­ers is tan­ta­mount to autoc­ra­cy,” a Philip­pine rights group, the Con­cerned Lawyers for Civ­il Lib­er­ties, said in a state­ment. The lawyers not­ed that Mr. Duterte had once com­pared the country’s Con­sti­tu­tion to a “scrap of toi­let paper.”

Some states are using the pan­dem­ic to crack down on dis­sent. In Jor­dan, after an emer­gency “defense law” gave wide lat­i­tude to his office, Prime Min­is­ter Omar Raz­zaz said his gov­ern­ment would “deal firm­ly” with any­one who spreads “rumors, fab­ri­ca­tions and false news that sows pan­ic.”

Prime Min­is­ter Prayuth Chan-ocha of Thai­land has assumed the author­i­ty to impose cur­fews and cen­sor the news media. Jour­nal­ists there have been sued and intim­i­dat­ed for crit­i­ciz­ing the government’s response to the out­break.

While the virus itself may have cooled pro­test­ers’ will to crowd pub­lic squares, Chile’s dec­la­ra­tion of a “state of cat­a­stro­phe” and the military’s pres­ence on city streets has mut­ed rag­ing dis­sent that rocked the nation for months.

The pan­dem­ic has also dis­rupt­ed planned elec­tions. This month, Bolivia sus­pend­ed a much antic­i­pat­ed pres­i­den­tial elec­tion that had been sched­uled for ear­ly May. A dis­put­ed elec­tion last year set off vio­lent protests and forced Pres­i­dent Evo Morales to resign.

The inter­im pres­i­dent, who promised to serve only as a care­tak­er, has since con­sol­i­dat­ed pow­er and announced her plan to run for an elect­ed term. The country’s elec­tion tri­bunal said on Thurs­day that it would hold the elec­tions some­time between June and Sep­tem­ber.

In the Unit­ed States, the Jus­tice Depart­ment asked Con­gress for sweep­ing new pow­ers, includ­ing a plan to elim­i­nate legal pro­tec­tions for asy­lum seek­ers and detain peo­ple indef­i­nite­ly with­out tri­al. After Repub­li­cans and Democ­rats balked, the depart­ment scaled back and sub­mit­ted a more mod­est pro­pos­al.

Rights groups say gov­ern­ments may con­tin­ue to absorb more pow­er while their cit­i­zens are dis­tract­ed. They wor­ry that peo­ple may not rec­og­nize the rights they have ced­ed until it is too late to reclaim them.

Some emer­gency bills were waved through so quick­ly that law­mak­ers and rights groups had no time to read them, let alone debate their neces­si­ty. Rights advo­cates have also ques­tioned the speed with which states have draft­ed lengthy leg­is­la­tion.

Cer­tain gov­ern­ments have a set of desired pow­ers “ready to go” in case of emer­gency or cri­sis, said Ms. Aolain, the Unit­ed Nations spe­cial rap­por­teur. They draft laws in advance and wait “for the oppor­tu­ni­ty of the cri­sis to be pre­sent­ed,” she said.

It is far from clear what will become of the emer­gency laws when the cri­sis pass­es. In the past, laws enact­ed in a rush, like the Patri­ot Act that fol­lowed the Sept. 11 attacks, have out­lived the crises they were meant to address.

Over time, emer­gency decrees per­me­ate legal struc­tures and become nor­mal­ized, said Dou­glas Rutzen, the pres­i­dent of the Inter­na­tion­al Cen­ter for Not-for-Prof­it Law in Wash­ing­ton, which is track­ing new leg­is­la­tion and decrees dur­ing the pan­dem­ic.

“It’s real­ly easy to con­struct emer­gency pow­ers,” Mr. Rutzen said. “It’s real­ly dif­fi­cult to decon­struct them.”

The pan­dem­ic may be a boon to gov­ern­ments with an auto­crat­ic bent.

“A Real Dic­ta­tor­ship”

In Hun­gary, a new law has grant­ed Prime Min­is­ter Vik­tor Orban the pow­er to side­step Par­lia­ment and sus­pend exist­ing laws. Mr. Orban, who declared a state of emer­gency this month, now has the sole pow­er to end the emer­gency. Par­lia­ment, where two-thirds of the seats are con­trolled by his par­ty, approved the leg­is­la­tion on Mon­day.

Crit­ics say the new leg­is­la­tion could allow Mr. Orban’s gov­ern­ment to fur­ther erode demo­c­ra­t­ic insti­tu­tions and per­se­cute jour­nal­ists and mem­bers of the oppo­si­tion. The law will per­ma­nent­ly amend two arti­cles of the crim­i­nal code that will fur­ther lim­it free­dom of expres­sion and penal­ize peo­ple for breach­ing quar­an­tine orders. It will also sus­pend all elec­tions and ref­er­en­dums.

Under one mea­sure, any­one who dis­sem­i­nates infor­ma­tion that could hin­der the government’s response to the epi­dem­ic could face up to five years in prison. The leg­is­la­tion gives broad lat­i­tude to the pub­lic pros­e­cu­tor to deter­mine what counts as dis­tort­ed or false infor­ma­tion.

“The draft law is alarm­ing,” said Daniel Kar­sai, a lawyer in Budapest who said the new leg­is­la­tion had cre­at­ed “a big fear” among Hun­gar­i­ans that “the Orban admin­is­tra­tion will be a real dic­ta­tor­ship.”

“There is not enough trust in the gov­ern­ment in this respect,” he said.

Oth­ers point­ed to the government’s track record of pro­long­ing emer­gency leg­is­la­tion long after a cri­sis. One such decree, issued at the height of Europe’s migra­tion cri­sis five years ago, is still in effect.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on May 13, 2020, 04:26:41 AM
Ear­li­er this week, the Eliz­a­beth, New Jer­sey police depart­ment gave res­i­dents a look at one of the drones offi­cials there will use to help mon­i­tor res­i­dents and enforce social dis­tanc­ing mea­sures aimed at slow­ing the spread of the nov­el coro­n­avirus. “These drones will be around the City with an auto­mat­ed mes­sage from the May­or telling you to STOP gath­er­ing, dis­perse and go home,” the depart­ment said.

The city, which has seen close to 1,500 con­firmed COVID cas­es, is one of a grow­ing num­ber of com­mu­ni­ties in the Unit­ed States that is either deploy­ing or con­sid­er­ing the use of unmanned drones to sup­port their shel­ter-in-place directives—a prac­tice that has been used, seem­ing­ly with suc­cess, in coun­tries like France and Chi­na. But on Wednes­day, the Eliz­a­beth police depart­ment was forced to clar­i­fy in a sec­ond video empha­siz­ing that the drones were only there to spread “an auto­mat­ed notice about keep­ing your social dis­tance.”

“We are just try­ing to save lives, not try­ing to be big broth­er,” the depart­ment said on Face­book. “There is no record­ing and no pic­tures being tak­en, it is a tool of encour­age­ment to fol­low the rules.”

The episode under­scores the loom­ing ten­sions for fed­er­al and local gov­ern­ments between civ­il lib­er­ties and efforts to com­bat a dead­ly pan­dem­ic that has par­a­lyzed the coun­try. The U.S. gov­ern­ment was caught flat-foot­ed by the pub­lic health cri­sis, thanks to Don­ald Trump ignor­ing months of warn­ings and rely­ing on wish­ful think­ing rather than action. But with Amer­i­ca now the epi­cen­ter of the pan­dem­ic, the admin­is­tra­tion is try­ing to play catch-up, with Jared Kushner—the president’s unqual­i­fied son-in-law and senior advis­er—lead­ing a coro­n­avirus response team that has float­ed a num­ber of poten­tial mea­sures, includ­ing a nation­al sur­veil­lance sys­tem to mon­i­tor out­breaks. That has raised pri­va­cy con­cerns, with crit­ics liken­ing it to the Patri­ot Act put into place fol­low­ing 9/11. “This is a gen­uine crisis—we have to work through it and do our best to pro­tect people’s health,” Jes­si­ca Rich, a for­mer direc­tor of the Fed­er­al Trade Commission’s con­sumer pro­tec­tion bureau, told Politi­co. “But doing that doesn’t mean we have to destroy pri­va­cy.”

With­in the fed­er­al gov­ern­ment itself, there has been a clum­sy acknowl­edge­ment that there are lim­its to what the U.S. can do in its efforts to con­tain the virus. “We are not an author­i­tar­i­an nation,” Sur­geon Gen­er­al Jerome Adams said on Fox News last month, soon after the World Health Orga­ni­za­tion declared coro­n­avirus a pan­dem­ic. “So we have to be care­ful when we say, ‘Let’s do what Chi­na did, let’s do what South Korea did.’” (South Korea is a democ­ra­cy.) Still, actions by the Trump admin­is­tra­tion to loosen data shar­ing rules around health­care and the nation­al coro­n­avirus sur­veil­lance pro­pos­al from Kushner’s team have raised con­cerns from pri­va­cy advocates—particularly giv­en the long­stand­ing fears about how the Trump admin­is­tra­tion has used sur­veil­lance and tech­nol­o­gy in its immi­gra­tion enforce­ment and oth­er con­tro­ver­sial poli­cies, along with the president’s ero­sion of demo­c­ra­t­ic norms.

“We dealt with sim­i­lar issues in 9/11,” Rich said. “One rea­son that the gov­ern­ment doesn’t have all of this data is there’s a lot of con­cern about big broth­er main­tain­ing large data­bas­es on every con­sumer on sen­si­tive issues like health, and for good rea­son.” Indeed, for crit­ics, the pri­va­cy ques­tions extend beyond the present moment when gov­ern­ments are grap­pling with the dead­ly pan­dem­ic — what hap­pens when this cri­sis pass­es? Is it pos­si­ble to get the tooth­paste back in the tube? “My biggest con­cern is that tech will emerge more pow­er­ful than it was,” Bur­cu Kil­ic, who leads a dig­i­tal right pro­gram at con­sumer advo­ca­cy orga­ni­za­tion Pub­lic Cit­i­zen, told Politi­co. “When things get back to nor­mal, do you think they’ll want to reg­u­late them?”

Munic­i­pal­i­ties like Eliz­a­beth and Day­tona Beach, Flori­da that are mak­ing use of drones to enforce social dis­tanc­ing are get­ting a taste of what nor­mal might look like, thanks to the pan­dem­ic. As Thomas Gaulkin of the Bul­letin of the Atom­ic Sci­en­tists not­ed ear­li­er this month, many Amer­i­cans— often fierce in their objec­tions to per­ceived gov­ern­ment over­reach into their lives—might nor­mal­ly object to dystopi­an images of fly­ing robots polic­ing lock­downs. But these, of course, are not nor­mal times. “If drones do begin to hov­er over U.S. streets to help con­trol this pan­dem­ic,” Gaulkin wrote, “it will be yet anoth­er vis­i­ble reminder that we’ve entered a pub­lic health Twi­light Zone where Amer­i­cans have no bet­ter option than to embrace what was once only imag­in­able, and nev­er real.”

7b. The alpha preda­tor of the elec­tron­ic sur­veil­lance land­scape is Peter Thiel’s Palan­tir. They have land­ed two key gov­ern­ment con­tracts in con­nec­tion with the Covid-19 out­break: ” . . . . Palan­tir, the $20 bil­lion-val­ued Palo Alto tech com­pa­ny backed by Face­book-fun­der Peter Thiel, has been hand­ed a $17.3 mil­lion con­tract with one of the lead­ing health bod­ies lead­ing the charge against COVID-19. It’s the biggest con­tract hand­ed to a Sil­i­con Val­ley com­pa­ny to assist America’s COVID-19 response, accord­ing to Forbes’ review of pub­lic con­tracts, and comes as oth­er Cal­i­forn­ian giants like Apple and Google try to fig­ure out how best to help gov­ern­ments fight the dead­ly virus. . . . The mon­ey, from the fed­er­al government’s COVID-19 relief fund, is for Palan­tir Gotham licens­es, accord­ing to a con­tract record reviewed by Forbes. That tech­nol­o­gy is designed to draw in data from myr­i­ad sources and, regard­less of what form or size, turn the infor­ma­tion into a coher­ent whole. The ‘plat­form’ is cus­tomized for each client, so it meets with their mis­sion needs, accord­ing to Palan­tir. . . . Palan­tir Gotham is slight­ly dif­fer­ent to Foundry, a new­er prod­uct that’s aimed more at gen­er­al users rather than data sci­ence whizzes, with more automa­tion than Gotham. As Forbes pre­vi­ous­ly report­ed, Foundry is being used by the Cen­ters for Dis­ease Con­trol and Pre­ven­tion (CDC) to ingest infor­ma­tion from all man­ner of hos­pi­tals across Amer­i­ca to see where best to pro­vide more or less resource. . . . Palan­tir is now work­ing with at least 12 gov­ern­ments on their respons­es to coro­n­avirus, accord­ing to two sources with knowl­edge of its COVID-19 work. That includes the U.K.’s Nation­al Health Ser­vice, which is using Foundry for sim­i­lar pur­pos­es as the CDC. . . .”

“Palan­tir, The Peter Thiel-Backed $20 Bil­lion Big Data Crunch­er, Scores $17 Mil­lion Coro­n­avirus Emer­gency Relief Deal” by Thomas Brew­ster; Forbes; 04/11/2020

Palan­tir, the $20 bil­lion-val­ued Palo Alto tech com­pa­ny backed by Face­book-fun­der Peter Thiel, has been hand­ed a $17.3 mil­lion con­tract with one of the lead­ing health bod­ies lead­ing the charge against COVID-19.

It’s the biggest con­tract hand­ed to a Sil­i­con Val­ley com­pa­ny to assist America’s COVID-19 response, accord­ing to Forbes’ review of pub­lic con­tracts, and comes as oth­er Cal­i­forn­ian giants like Apple and Google try to fig­ure out how best to help gov­ern­ments fight the dead­ly virus.

The deal was signed on April 10 with a Depart­ment of Health and Human Ser­vices (HHS) sub­sidiary agency, the Pro­gram Sup­port Cen­ter (PSC), which pro­vides “shared ser­vices across the fed­er­al gov­ern­ment.”

The mon­ey, from the fed­er­al government’s COVID-19 relief fund, is for Palan­tir Gotham licens­es, accord­ing to a con­tract record reviewed by Forbes. That tech­nol­o­gy is designed to draw in data from myr­i­ad sources and, regard­less of what form or size, turn the infor­ma­tion into a coher­ent whole. The “plat­form” is cus­tomized for each client, so it meets with their mis­sion needs, accord­ing to Palan­tir.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on May 13, 2020, 04:35:47 AM


“G.O.P. Aim­ing To Make Chi­na The Scape­goat” by Jonathan Mar­tin and Mag­gie Haber­man; The New York Times; 4/19/2020; pp. A1-A6 [West­ern Edi­tion]

The strat­e­gy could not be clear­er: From the Repub­li­can law­mak­ers blan­ket­ing Fox News to new ads from Pres­i­dent Trump’s super PAC to the bit­ing crit­i­cism on Don­ald Trump Jr.’s Twit­ter feed, the G.O.P. is attempt­ing to divert atten­tion from the administration’s heav­i­ly crit­i­cized response to the coro­n­avirus by pin­ning the blame on Chi­na.

With the death toll from the pan­dem­ic already sur­pass­ing 34,000 Amer­i­cans and unem­ploy­ment soar­ing to lev­els not seen since the Great Depres­sion, Repub­li­cans increas­ing­ly believe that ele­vat­ing Chi­na as an arch­en­e­my cul­pa­ble for the spread of the virus, and har­ness­ing America’s grow­ing ani­mos­i­ty toward Bei­jing, may be the best way to sal­vage a dif­fi­cult elec­tion.

Repub­li­can sen­a­tors locked in dif­fi­cult races are prepar­ing com­mer­cials con­demn­ing Chi­na. Con­ser­v­a­tives with future pres­i­den­tial ambi­tions of their own, like Sen­a­tors Tom Cot­ton and Josh Haw­ley, are com­pet­ing to see who can talk tougher toward the coun­try where the virus first emerged. Par­ty offi­cials are pub­licly and pri­vate­ly bran­dish­ing polling data in hopes Mr. Trump will con­front Bei­jing.

Mr. Trump’s own cam­paign aides have endorsed the strat­e­gy, releas­ing an attack ad last week depict­ing Joseph R. Biden Jr., the pre­sump­tive Demo­c­ra­t­ic nom­i­nee, as soft on Chi­na. The ad relied heav­i­ly on images of peo­ple of Asian descent, includ­ing for­mer Gov. Gary Locke of Wash­ing­ton, who is Chi­nese-Amer­i­can, and it was wide­ly viewed as fan­ning the flames of xeno­pho­bia. . . .

. . . . The strat­e­gy includes efforts to lever­age the U.S.-China rela­tion­ship against Mr. Biden, who Repub­li­cans believe is vul­ner­a­ble because of his com­ments last year play­ing down the geopo­lit­i­cal chal­lenge posed by Chi­na and what Repub­li­cans claim was high-pay­ing work that his son, Hunter, has done there. (A lawyer for the younger Mr. Biden said he was uncom­pen­sat­ed for his work.)

Mr. Biden, for his part, has crit­i­cized Mr. Trump’s warm words for Chi­na. On Fri­day, his cam­paign released a video assail­ing the pres­i­dent for not press­ing Mr. Xi to let the Cen­ters for Dis­ease Con­trol and Pre­ven­tion into his coun­try and for being “more wor­ried about pro­tect­ing his trade deal with Chi­na than he was about the virus.”

On a con­fer­ence call with reporters, Antony J. Blinken, a senior Biden advis­er, not­ed that in Jan­u­ary and Feb­ru­ary “the pres­i­dent praised Chi­na and Pres­i­dent Xi more than 15 times.” He attrib­uted the flat­tery to the administration’s not want­i­ng to “risk that Chi­na pull back on imple­ment­ing” the ini­tial trade agree­ment the two coun­tries signed in Jan­u­ary. . . .

. . . . The president’s hopes for secur­ing a major trade agree­ment with Chi­na have been rein­forced by a coterie of his advis­ers, includ­ing Trea­sury Sec­re­tary Steven Mnuchin,who have often pre­vailed in inter­nal bat­tles over White House hard-lin­ers.

But with the coro­n­avirus death toll grow­ing and the econ­o­my at a stand­still, polls show that Amer­i­cans have nev­er viewed Chi­na more neg­a­tive­ly.

In a recent 17-state sur­vey con­duct­ed by Mr. Trump’s cam­paign, 77 per­cent of vot­ers agreed that Chi­na cov­ered up the extent of the coro­n­avirus out­break, and 79 per­cent of vot­ers indi­cat­ed they did not think Chi­na had been truth­ful about the extent of infec­tions and deaths, accord­ing to a Repub­li­can briefed on the poll. . . .

. . . . “At this moment in time a trade deal is not the right top­ic of dis­cus­sion,” said Sen­a­tor Steve Daines, Repub­li­can of Mon­tana, who said the pan­dem­ic had high­light­ed the country’s reliance on Chi­na in the same painful fash­ion that the oil cri­sis of the 1970s revealed how it was at the mer­cy of the Mid­dle East. “This has exposed our depen­den­cy on Chi­na for P.P.E. and for crit­i­cal drugs.”

Mr. Haw­ley, a first-term Mis­souri sen­a­tor has also denounced Chi­na, call­ing for a Unit­ed States-led inter­na­tion­al com­mis­sion to deter­mine the ori­gin of the virus and demand­ing that Amer­i­can vic­tims be allowed to sue the Chi­nese gov­ern­ment.

“This is the 9/11 of this gen­er­a­tion,” said Mr. Haw­ley, adding that he hopes Mr. Trump “keeps the pres­sure high.”

He said Repub­li­cans should make the issue cen­tral this fall and demon­strate “how are we going to come out of this stronger by actu­al­ly stand­ing up to the Chi­nese.”

Few Repub­li­cans have been more out­spo­ken than Mr. Cot­ton, an Arkansan who was warn­ing about the virus at the start of the year when few law­mak­ers were pay­ing atten­tion, and has been urg­ing Sen­ate can­di­dates to make Chi­na a cen­ter­piece of their cam­paigns.

“Chi­na unleashed this pan­dem­ic on the world and they should pay the price,” Mr. Cot­ton said. “Con­gress and the pres­i­dent should work togeth­er to hold Chi­na account­able.” . . .

9. Exem­plary, as well, of the bio-psy-op as syn­the­sis of covert oper­a­tion and polit­i­cal cru­sad­ing is the GOP’s cyn­i­cal manip­u­la­tion of emer­gency appro­pri­a­tions to achieve their long­stand­ing objec­tive of crip­pling state and local gov­ern­ments, as well as dri­ving the Postal Ser­vice into bank­rupt­cy. Pri­va­tiz­ing postal ser­vice has been a right-wing/­GOP objec­tive for a long time. ” . . . . Every­one, and I mean every­one, knows what is real­ly hap­pen­ing: McConnell is try­ing to get more mon­ey for busi­ness­es while con­tin­u­ing to short­change state and local gov­ern­ments. After all, “starve the beast” — forc­ing gov­ern­ments to cut ser­vices by depriv­ing them of resources — has been Repub­li­can strat­e­gy for decades. This is just more of the same. . . . Oh, and Trump per­son­al­ly has ruled out aid for the Postal Ser­vice. . . .”

“Starve the Beast, Feed The Depres­sion” by Paul Krug­man; The New York Times; 4/17/2020; p. A27 [West­ern Edi­tion].

. . . . Right now the econ­o­my is in the equiv­a­lent of a med­ical­ly induced coma, with whole sec­tors shut down to lim­it social con­tact and hence slow the spread of the coro­n­avirus. We can’t bring the econ­o­my out of this coma until, at min­i­mum, we have sharply reduced the rate of new infec­tions and dra­mat­i­cal­ly increased test­ing so that we can quick­ly respond to any new out­breaks. . . .

. . . . Since we’re nowhere close to that point — in par­tic­u­lar, test­ing is still far behind what’s need­ed — we’re months away from a safe end of the lock­down. This is caus­ing severe hard­ship for work­ers, busi­ness­es, hos­pi­tals and — last but not least — state and local gov­ern­ments, which unlike the fed­er­al gov­ern­ment must bal­ance their bud­gets. . . .

. . . . What pol­i­cy can and should do is mit­i­gate that hard­ship. And the last relief pack­age did, in fact, do a lot of the right things. But it didn’t do enough of them. . . .

. . . . It’s true that Sen­ate Repub­li­cans are try­ing to push through an extra $250 bil­lion in small-busi­ness lend­ing — and Democ­rats are will­ing to go along. But the Democ­rats also insist that the pack­age include sub­stan­tial aid for hos­pi­tals and for state and local gov­ern­ments. And Mitch McConnell, the Sen­ate major­i­ty leader, is refus­ing to include this aid.

McConnell claims that he would be will­ing to con­sid­er addi­tion­al mea­sures in lat­er leg­is­la­tion. But let’s get real. There is absolute­ly no rea­son not to include the mon­ey now.

Every­one, and I mean every­one, knows what is real­ly hap­pen­ing: McConnell is try­ing to get more mon­ey for busi­ness­es while con­tin­u­ing to short­change state and local gov­ern­ments. After all, “starve the beast” — forc­ing gov­ern­ments to cut ser­vices by depriv­ing them of resources — has been Repub­li­can strat­e­gy for decades. This is just more of the same.

This real­i­ty leaves Democ­rats with no choice except to stand firm while they still have lever­age. Bear in mind that McConnell could have the mon­ey he wants tomor­row if he were will­ing to meet them halfway. So far, how­ev­er, he isn’t. Oh, and Trump per­son­al­ly has ruled out aid for the Postal Ser­vice.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 13, 2020, 11:15:57 AM
I am not going read that much cut and paste, but it is the nature of people in positions of authority to grab for more power.

Our founders recognized this principle of "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Thus our constitution's limitations on government power.

JR
[edit- coincidentally the mayor of my very small town just issued his first executive order #1 declaring a $500 fine for not wearing a mask in stores.  /edit]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: boji on May 13, 2020, 01:12:21 PM
Quote
Palan­tir, The Peter Thiel-Backed $20 Bil­lion Big Data Crunch­er, Scores $17 Mil­lion Coro­n­avirus Emer­gency Relief Deal” by Thomas Brew­ster; Forbes; 04/11/2020

Eric in his podcast "The Portal" was going on about the need to get off this planet.  I think I get his motivations for saying that now, seeing that he works for Thiel, and they are friends despite their ostensible differences in politics.  Also Cambridge Analytica is looking somewhat benign compared to Palantir.   CJ, pass me the joint please, I need some escape.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 14, 2020, 09:05:48 PM
I also note the horse's ass in chief (monkey see, monkey do) and his chief sycophant are requiring all white house staffers to wear masks to protect themselves (that's assuming he even knows the reason for the masks), but not wearing them themselves, showing they don't give a sh!t about anybody else, since a person can test negative (even the best tests initially have unreliable sensitivity, not to mention the crappy 15 minute tests they are using) and still be contagious to others.

Just thought I'd re-post this in light of more info on that great Abbott test WH is using (no quid pro quo there I'm sure), so when using the test as Abbott now recommends (swabs not in media but dry), the test missed half of the positives. Wow, I wonder how many WH staffers don't have the virus.

"Regardless of method of collection and sample type, Abbot ID NOWCOVID-19 missed a third of the samples detected positive by Cepheid Xpert Xpress when using NP swabs in VTM and over 48% when using dry nasal swabs."

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.11.089896v1.full.pdf
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on May 14, 2020, 09:53:52 PM
Eric in his podcast "The Portal" was going on about the need to get off this planet.  I think I get his motivations for saying that now, seeing that he works for Thiel, and they are friends despite their ostensible differences in politics.  Also Cambridge Analytica is looking somewhat benign compared to Palantir.   CJ, pass me the joint please, I need some escape.


I saw Eric on the portal about Kayfabe.  It’  takes me a while to digest Eric sometimes but this makes real  sense to me.   Eric goes all over the place sometimes like on Rogen where he goes from unified gravity theory to the best YouTube lindy hop dance movie from the 30’s and 40’s. He’s a trip, entertaining and thought provoking. Getting off this planet is a disturbing idea.   What does he know.  He’s a mathematician so he’s calculated the odds I guess.  7 billion and counting,  What could go wrong?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on May 15, 2020, 04:13:36 AM
https://kfjc.org/player/#61939
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on May 15, 2020, 03:38:59 PM
I want to order a Jersey with:
Covfefe
      19

It looks like it’s a six piece minimum order at Custom Ink. Anyone in for a group buy?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on May 15, 2020, 03:57:02 PM
My Brother in law would love something like this....

His birthday is coming up in a couple of months....

It'll make up for the last birthday gift.... We gave him a nice tie and had him try it on while we took pictures.... Then told him to look at the tag....Ahahaha... it was a Trump tie.... We have some great pics.....  He hates him so much...lol

How much are they??
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on May 15, 2020, 04:47:38 PM
How much are they??

I haven't gone through the quote yet. My guess is in the $25-$40 but I can get a quote. Is XL okay? They all have to be the same size.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on May 15, 2020, 05:27:12 PM
Yeah that's a bit too big....

I kind of figured everyone would need something different. If i get something together i'll let you know.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 17, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
From an article in FT:

“Jared [Kushner] had been arguing that testing too many people, or ordering too many ventilators, would spook the markets and so we just shouldn’t do it,” says a Trump confidant who speaks to the president frequently.

https://www.ft.com/content/97dc7de6-940b-11ea-abcd-371e24b679ed (https://www.ft.com/content/97dc7de6-940b-11ea-abcd-371e24b679ed)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 17, 2020, 11:45:52 AM
From an article in FT:

“Jared [Kushner] had been arguing that testing too many people, or ordering too many ventilators, would spook the markets and so we just shouldn’t do it,” says a Trump confidant who speaks to the president frequently.

https://www.ft.com/content/97dc7de6-940b-11ea-abcd-371e24b679ed (https://www.ft.com/content/97dc7de6-940b-11ea-abcd-371e24b679ed)
you guys keep missing opportunities to slam the right..  ::)

What about the Republican Senator (Burr-NC), whose phone was seized by FBI over an insider trading investigation?

JR   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 17, 2020, 12:38:38 PM
Three conspiracy theorists walk into a bar, coincidence...? I think not.  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 17, 2020, 01:45:23 PM
Telling quotes from the article:

dismisses anyone who claims to know more than him

 Above all, you must never make him feel ignorant.

“In my view he is a sociopath and a malignant narcissist. When a person suffering from these disorders feels the world closing in on them, their tendencies get worse. They lash out and fantasise and lose any ability to think rationally.”

Yet without exception, everyone I interviewed, including the most ardent Trump loyalists, made a similar point to Conway. Trump is deaf to advice, said one. He is his own worst enemy, said another. He only listens to family, said a third. He is mentally imbalanced, said a fourth.

Definition:

In the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5), [1] NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:

    A grandiose sense of self-importance

    A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

    A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions

    A need for excessive admiration

    A sense of entitlement

    Interpersonally exploitive behavior

    A lack of empathy

    Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her

    A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes


For me this pretty much says it - has nothing to do with dissing the right, except that they've caved.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on May 17, 2020, 02:04:35 PM
Sounds a lot like these World Organizations in some ways......
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on May 17, 2020, 02:12:44 PM
Sounds a lot like these World Organizations in some ways......

+1
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 17, 2020, 05:40:54 PM
Telling quotes from the article:

dismisses anyone who claims to know more than him

 Above all, you must never make him feel ignorant.

“In my view he is a sociopath and a malignant narcissist. When a person suffering from these disorders feels the world closing in on them, their tendencies get worse. They lash out and fantasise and lose any ability to think rationally.”

Yet without exception, everyone I interviewed, including the most ardent Trump loyalists, made a similar point to Conway. Trump is deaf to advice, said one. He is his own worst enemy, said another. He only listens to family, said a third. He is mentally imbalanced, said a fourth.

Definition:

In the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5), [1] NPD is defined as comprising a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), a constant need for admiration, and a lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by the presence of at least 5 of the following 9 criteria:

    A grandiose sense of self-importance

    A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

    A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions

    A need for excessive admiration

    A sense of entitlement

    Interpersonally exploitive behavior

    A lack of empathy

    Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her

    A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes


For me this pretty much says it - has nothing to do with dissing the right, except that they've caved.
Quote from: WWW
Search domain www.psychiatry.org/File Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/Ethics/APA-Ethics-Committee-Goldwater-Opinion.pdfhttps://www.psychiatry.org/File Library/Psychiatrists/Practice/Ethics/APA-Ethics-Committee-Goldwater-Opinion.pdf
2. Psychiatric diagnosis occurs in the context of an evaluation, based on thorough history taking, examination, and, where applicable, collateral information. It is a departure from the methods of the profession to render an opinion without an examination and without conducting an evaluation in accordance with the standards of psychiatric practice.
Of course armchair psychiatrists don't have to worry about industry ethics.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 17, 2020, 05:47:36 PM
At the risk of pointing out the obvious elephant in the room.... reopening the economy will benefit one political party more than the other. Of course partisan advantage should not have anything to do with public health decisions we should be alert to the potential for self interested agendas swaying public health advice and decisions.

I suspect both sides will identify villains here... have fun.

JR 

PS: Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 17, 2020, 07:29:34 PM
you guys keep missing opportunities to slam the right..  ::)


Far more amazing is that you still keep inventing ways to defend the right.  You're twisting yourself into Gordian knots trying to justify Trump's constant malfeasance.  I commend you for your limberness if for nothing else.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 17, 2020, 10:00:13 PM
Far more amazing is that you still keep inventing ways to defend the right.  You're twisting yourself into Gordian knots trying to justify Trump's constant malfeasance.  I commend you for your limberness if for nothing else.
I wish I was that limber...

Sorry you are so upset, and worried about me.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 17, 2020, 11:36:57 PM
Quote
Of course armchair psychiatrists don't have to worry about industry ethics.

If it quacks like a duck...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 18, 2020, 11:26:54 AM
Edward Luce, Anthony Scaramucci and George Conway are hardly armchair psychiatrists....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Luce
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Scaramucci
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_T._Conway_III

Thanks I guess??  I remember "the mooch" before he got fired, he was a regular on business news networks. I don't recognize the other two.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on May 18, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
At the risk of pointing out the obvious elephant in the room.... reopening the economy will benefit one political party more than the other.

And which one would that be? Because I certainly don't know. IF the economy recovers and the virus is kept in check it is more likely to help Republicans. IF reopening the economy leads to the virus spreading more and wreaking havoc in red states and swing states, it is not likely to help Republicans. Personally, I would consider scenario 2 more likely, but again, I don't know.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on May 18, 2020, 09:19:16 PM
And which one would that be? Because I certainly don't know. IF the economy recovers and the virus is kept in check it is more likely to help Republicans. IF reopening the economy leads to the virus spreading more and wreaking havoc in red states and swing states, it is not likely to help Republicans. Personally, I would consider scenario 2 more likely, but again, I don't know.

That sounds right to me.  Better than any drama at this point.   You wake from what you think is a dream and its not. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 19, 2020, 10:38:51 AM
And which one would that be? Because I certainly don't know. IF the economy recovers and the virus is kept in check it is more likely to help Republicans. IF reopening the economy leads to the virus spreading more and wreaking havoc in red states and swing states, it is not likely to help Republicans. Personally, I would consider scenario 2 more likely, but again, I don't know.
That is called the prison of two ideas. It is certainly possible to reopen the economy without jump starting the pandemic. We even have historical precedents with Spanish Flu outbreaks linked to too early relaxing of preventative policies a century ago.

Germany kept something like 80% of its factories operating which means they don't need to be reopened.

In elections the strength of the economy and personal employment situation has a direct impact on how individuals vote. Keeping the economy shuttered through November would undoubtably harm the incumbent administration's chances (while trashing our small businesses even more).

There is a fair debate that we over reacted. In our federalist system, state governors have more authority to generate different local policies. These different policies can effect different results. One obvious example of the kind of differences this causes is how NY state's policy of forcing nursing homes to take in COVID positive patients, while Florida did pretty much the opposite protecting that high risk population and enjoying roughly 1/7 the nursing home deaths that NY saw . (Ironically perhaps Gov Cuomo is a rising star of the left while Gov Desantis is just another deplorable republican). 

I remain optimistic that we will figure this out (some states better than others). Even before this pandemic broke out some administration opponents called for economic collapse as worth it to remove the president they love to hate. Sadly that sentiment is still out there while few are willing to openly admit it, calling for a prolonged lock down is politically safer and will have a similar result.

JR

PS: I still can't read minds but the partisan enmity is worse now than I can recall from anytime during my lifetime.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on May 19, 2020, 12:04:58 PM
Quote
I still can't read minds but the partisan enmity is worse now than I can recall from anytime during my lifetime.

Agreed the Dems and Pubs are more like Middle East religious tribe wars.  ”The hell with the people our party is right”.   Gonna get ugly this summer. Could get biblical.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on May 20, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
These different policies can effect different results. One obvious example of the kind of differences this causes is how NY state's policy of forcing nursing homes to take in COVID positive patients, while Florida did pretty much the opposite protecting that high risk population and enjoying roughly 1/7 the nursing home deaths that NY saw . (Ironically perhaps Gov Cuomo is a rising star of the left while Gov Desantis is just another deplorable republican). 

The most marked contrast is NY vs California. DeBlasio doesn't look good and Cuomo looks even worse:

https://www.propublica.org/article/two-coasts-one-virus-how-new-york-suffered-nearly-10-times-the-number-of-deaths-as-california

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on May 20, 2020, 01:25:46 PM
Just because Cuomo has done a better job than the total incompetence of the federal government doesn’t mean he’s done a good job.

DeSantis just fired the person in the health department responsible for the numbers. I wouldn’t trust any numbers out of Florida.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 21, 2020, 12:21:30 PM
Just because Cuomo has done a better job than the total incompetence of the federal government doesn’t mean he’s done a good job.

DeSantis just fired the person in the health department responsible for the numbers. I wouldn’t trust any numbers out of Florida.
I moved away from NJ before it was cool to leave (60s).  8)

So many new yorkers have moved to FL you can probably already get a decent bagel with schmear down there. FL hasn't turned liberal progressive yet from all the tax escapees, like Austin TX has from the resettled fornians.  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 21, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
So much to chew on here.

Straight Talk from ex-CDC for the Long Slog Ahead
By Bruce G. Weniger, MD, MPH and Chin-Yih Ou, PhD, medical epidemiologist and research-laboratory specialist, respectively; both retired from CDC

https://medium.com/@bgweniger/straight-talk-from-ex-cdc-for-the-long-slog-ahead-f9d18a8502d1
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 21, 2020, 05:32:48 PM
So much to chew on here.

Straight Talk from ex-CDC for the Long Slog Ahead
By Bruce G. Weniger, MD, MPH and Chin-Yih Ou, PhD, medical epidemiologist and research-laboratory specialist, respectively; both retired from CDC

https://medium.com/@bgweniger/straight-talk-from-ex-cdc-for-the-long-slog-ahead-f9d18a8502d1
I wondered why this was in the covid politics thread until I opened the link.

Politics is interfering with my life... This morning I saw a squirrel in my back yard so I came inside to load my pellet rifle and the phone rings, some puke from the republican something or other wanted to suck some more of my time. I told him to wish Donald happy birthday for me and hung up... by the time I got back outside the squirrel was long gone...  I blame President Trump  ::) ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 23, 2020, 01:17:13 PM
I just got stung/bit in the yard by an unprovoked insect.... reminds me of politics.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 24, 2020, 03:46:07 PM
I just got stung/bit in the yard by an unprovoked insect.... reminds me of politics.

JR
That insect bite was not normal politics... My left forearm turned red and swelled up. It got warm to the touch no doubt from blood flow into it in reaction to the perceived trauma (inflammation).  I look a little like popeye but just on the left side. There is a classic fire ant pustule in the middle of the swelling. I have never seen such a strong reaction from just one bite... multiple fire ant bites close together can cause swelling (in fact they can kill cattle and very unlucky humans if swarmed) but this ant,  if it was an ant, is special.  ::)

 JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on May 24, 2020, 03:48:06 PM
That insect bite was not normal politics... My left forearm turned red and swelled up. It got warm to the touch no doubt from blood flow into it in reaction to the perceived trauma (inflammation).  I look a little like popeye but just on the left side. There is a classic fire ant pustule in the middle of the swelling. I have never seen such a strong reaction from just one bite... multiple fire ant bites close together can cause swelling (in fact they can kill cattle and very unlucky humans if swarmed) but this ant,  if it was an ant, is special.  ::)

 JR

Don't worry, it's just a Democrat hoax.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on May 24, 2020, 05:15:08 PM
Quote
if it was an ant, is special.  ::)

 JR

Maybe a caterpillar?? We have some, I think oak caterpillars, that can pack a punch....  We also have some , I don't know what they're called either, but they seem to hang out in tress...Not carpenter ants but some long body, almost like a wasp, and they hurt like heck too..... They usually just crawl around on you but, if they stay on long enough undetected, you'll know ....

Maybe an extra beer is in order....
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 24, 2020, 05:56:24 PM
Maybe a caterpillar?? We have some, I think oak caterpillars, that can pack a punch....  We also have some , I don't know what they're called either, but they seem to hang out in tress...Not carpenter ants but some long body, almost like a wasp, and they hurt like heck too..... They usually just crawl around on you but, if they stay on long enough undetected, you'll know ....
I just searched stinging caterpillars. Coincidentally I saw one caterpillar on the limbs I was collecting but he did not look as exotic as those "stinging" caterpillars.  Looked like a normal caterpillar and was not anywhere near my arm.
Quote
Maybe an extra beer is in order....
already ahead of you.....  8)
Don't worry, it's just a Democrat hoax.

My concept of reality has been questioned recently but I am pretty damn sure I got stung/bit by something.... evidence (oozing pustule) looks like a fire ant bite, but I have never had my arm swell up like this from just one ant bite. Then again I am getting old.  ;D

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 24, 2020, 07:32:15 PM
Try 50mg Benadryl (diphenhydramine) tonight (may make you drowsy).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 24, 2020, 08:45:04 PM
Try 50mg Benadryl (diphenhydramine) tonight (may make you drowsy).
I probably had some Benadryl laying around but i recently went through my pills cupboard and threw away everything that expired last century, or over a decade ago.

I tried some hydrocortisone creme that is still current but the topical doesn't really get down inside where the inflammation response was active. I even iced it and that helped some but its still warmer than my other arm... The pustule seems to be drying up.

This is not a big deal and is already subsiding,,,,
===

For TMI about caterpillars, I have an issue with tent caterpillars eating my pecan tree leaves. I recently discovered a tree spray using some bacteria that apparently attacks only the tent caterpillars but leaves the other beneficial insects alone. Thats on my list for this summer.

thanx

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 25, 2020, 12:30:38 PM
Try 50mg Benadryl (diphenhydramine) tonight (may make you drowsy).
This morning the inflammation and redness is somewhat reduced but not gone. I masked up and walked over to the dollar general looking for Benadryl... I found a Benadryl topical anti-itch creme that seemed close.

I put on my magnifying glasses and used my tweezer to clean and search the still oozing ulcer for any remaining bug parts. I extracted a few likely suspects but probably just little pieces of me, no obvious stinger or venom sac.

Taking it internally would probably work better to address my sub-dermal allergic reaction, hopefully some active ingredients will get absorbed through the skin, so I will dose it well externally.

 I remain optimistic.  Thanx

JR

[update- days later that forearm is still a little warm to the touch but swelling has pretty much subsided.  The pustules have scabbed over and there were clearly two bites/stings...  could be one angry fire ant, or two. Spacing looks like a huge snake bite, but i would have noticed that.  This week I'll buy some Benadryl for internal dosing with my grocery shopping, JIC for next time.  The topical helped some but didn't knock it down quickly.  /update]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 28, 2020, 11:06:52 AM
Had to leave when those on the right tried to "unexplain" accepted Merriam-Webster definitions.

Democrats:   Benghazi:       4
Republicans: COVID-19:  100,000

Happy milestone, right-wingers.

AMERICA FIRST... by a long shot.

Shall we touch on the word hoax again?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 28, 2020, 11:15:28 AM
This sort of thing has become routine.  This is what Republicans support when they support Trump.  It's like a giant network of con artists have attached themselves to President Grift, and periodically they spin off to steal more taxpayer money. 

A former White House aide won a $3 million federal contract to supply respirator masks to Navajo Nation hospitals in New Mexico and Arizona 11 days after he created a company to sell personal protective equipment in response to the coronavirus pandemic.

Zach Fuentes, President Donald Trump’s former deputy chief of staff, secured the deal with the Indian Health Service with limited competitive bidding and no prior federal contracting experience.

The IHS told ProPublica it has found that 247,000 of the masks delivered by Fuentes’ company — at a cost of roughly $800,000 — may be unsuitable for medical use. An additional 130,400, worth about $422,000, are not the type specified in the procurement data, the agency said.


https://www.propublica.org/article/the-feds-gave-a-former-white-house-official-3-million-to-supply-masks-to-navajo-hospitals-some-may-not-work (https://www.propublica.org/article/the-feds-gave-a-former-white-house-official-3-million-to-supply-masks-to-navajo-hospitals-some-may-not-work)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 11:40:39 AM
Try 50mg Benadryl (diphenhydramine) tonight (may make you drowsy).
Another swing and a miss (by me)... today while grocery shopping I tried to buy some Benadryl and all they had was a children's version...  I figured I'd just dose up appropriately, but after getting it home, its a cherry flavored syrup...(sugar helps the medicine go down). I took some anyhow.
 
The arm is almost back to normal, the inflammation has receded to maybe a couple square inches immediately around the bites. 

JR

PS; Being called "Con artist" is a new ad hominem, I should keep a list. This name calling is becoming "routine" but President Trump is actually better at name calling too, for better and worse, mostly worse, IMO.   ::) My favorite was when some lady called me a drummer thinking that would insult me.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 28, 2020, 12:14:02 PM
Another swing and a miss (by me)... today while grocery shopping I tried to buy some Benadryl and all they had was a children's version...  I figured I'd just dose up appropriately, but after getting it home, its a cherry flavored syrup...(sugar helps the medicine go down). I took some anyhow.
 
The arm is almost back to normal, the inflammation has receded to maybe a couple square inches immediately around the bites. 
It sounds like this was more an inflammatory reaction rather than allergic, but enjoy the cherry syrup! As long as it's getting smaller and not red and painful, probably not infection, and it should resolve on its own. You might try applying some heat (folded hot cloth) intermittently for faster resolution.

Disclaimer - this is NOT medical advice.  :)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 12:35:51 PM
It sounds like this was more an inflammatory reaction rather than allergic, but enjoy the cherry syrup! As long as it's getting smaller and not red and painful, probably not infection, and it should resolve on its own. You might try applying some heat (folded hot cloth) intermittently for faster resolution.

Disclaimer - this is NOT medical advice.  :)
I iced it some the first day, while I was already icing my knee (arthritis).  It is still a little warm now, but just barely perceptible and only right at the bite(s). Before the entire forearm was inflamed.

I understand icing to draw fresh blood into the area to promote healing...  Does a hot compress similarly increase blood circulation?

For the first few days the arm felt a little sore, as if the excess blood drawn into the area by inflammation/swelling was putrefying in place. Coincidentally I had a broken blood vessel in that same arm's bicep years ago (basketball injury from a flailing elbow down in the post). That time my arm filled up with blood, when I foolishly tried to run 5 miles the next day.  Long story short venal blood flow out of that arm may still be compromised.   

No worries, I routinely self diagnose and medicate... mostly with ethyl alcohol. If benadryl makes me drowsy not sure I could tell?  8) 

JR
 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 28, 2020, 01:25:02 PM


PS; Being called "Con artist" is a new ad hominem,

It's a descriptor.  It's not aimed at you.  Please tell what is not a con about the incident described above.  Indulge me.  Tell me how someone with close connections to the White House and no experience in the medical field gets a 3 million dollar contract and does not provide the product he is supposed to is all above board and legitimate.  Tell me how this is making America great again. 

Please explain why Fuentes should not be called a con artist. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 28, 2020, 01:45:40 PM
I understand icing to draw fresh blood into the area to promote healing...  Does a hot compress similarly increase blood circulation?
Icing keeps blood from flowing to an area (constricts blood vessels), to prevent leaking from the capillaries and an inflammatory response, causing swelling - used mostly for traumatic injuries such as bruises and sprains, and initially for allergic reactions that swell. Heat is used to bring blood flow to an area, especially for infection when you want infection-fighting cells and chemicals there. A fever is heat to your whole body when fighting a systemic infection and it's probably best not to decrease it as long as it's not dangerously high, but it can sure make you feel like sh!t.

I suggested heat at this point, as it might help bring blood and cells to clear out residual inflammatory debris that could be there.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 01:51:43 PM
It's a descriptor.  It's not aimed at you. 
I would be in the same group you lump all Trump voters into
Quote
Please tell what is not a con about the incident described above.
I'd have to study it, was that the guy I mentioned a couple weeks ago...?  I'm sure there are more than one.
Quote
Indulge me. 
hard to believe but I do have better things to do..
Quote
Tell me how someone with close connections to the White House and no experience in the medical field gets a 3 million dollar contract and does not provide the product he is supposed to is all above board and legitimate. 
Kind of sounds a little like Hunter Biden's windfalls from "consulting" (or whatever) with Ukraine and China. lacking industry experience.  While of course I do not make any direct comparison... ::)  just looks and quacks like same kind of duck.
Quote
Tell me how this is making America great again. 
draining the swamp of all swamp dwellers is a good thing, even republican swamp rats.
Quote
Please explain why Fuentes should not be called a con artist.
First I would have to figure out who that is... More important stuff going on right now around the world. (withdrawal from Afghanistan without just giving free reign to Taliban, Russian aircraft are supporting anti government militia in Libya while Turkey is supporting Libyan government. (looks like Russia is diving into ME drama with both feet). Iran shipping tons of refined gasoline to Maduro to support his weak grasp on power in Venezuela  (Maduro gives gasoline to army generals who still support him, and they retail it for cash). Ironically Venezuela sits on huge oil reserves but must import gasoline because they can't keep their own refineries running.

and much more...
 
JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 01:56:43 PM
Icing keeps blood from flowing to an area (constricts blood vessels), to prevent leaking from the capillaries and an inflammatory response, causing swelling - used mostly for traumatic injuries such as bruises and sprains, and initially for allergic reactions that swell. Heat is used to bring blood flow to an area, especially for infection when you want infection-fighting cells and chemicals there. A fever is heat to your whole body when fighting a systemic infection and it's probably best not to decrease it as long as it's not dangerously high, but it can sure make you feel like sh!t.

I suggested heat at this point, as it might help bring blood and cells to clear out residual inflammatory debris that could be there.
Thanks,,, perhaps I was confusing alternating heat with cold...


JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 28, 2020, 03:25:27 PM
Kind of sounds a little like Hunter Biden's windfalls from "consulting" (or whatever) with Ukraine and China. lacking industry experience.  While of course I do not make any direct comparison... ::)  just looks and quacks like same kind of duck.
JR

Thanks for this nice example of whataboutism.  Further, I have not defended Hunter Biden's actions.  It appears that he traded on his name to get paid by some unsavory characters.  He was not, however, working to obtain a contract from an administration he recently left, and he didn't fail to provide potentially lifesaving equipment he was contractually obligated to provide.  So yeah, not really the same thing.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 04:48:43 PM
Thanks for this nice example of whataboutism.  Further, I have not defended Hunter Biden's actions.  It appears that he traded on his name to get paid by some unsavory characters.  He was not, however, working to obtain a contract from an administration he recently left, and he didn't fail to provide potentially lifesaving equipment he was contractually obligated to provide.  So yeah, not really the same thing.
No whataboutism is to excuse bad behavior by showing other examples... I say burn them all...

But there does seem to be some selective hypocrisy in whom gets attacked.

drain the entire swamp.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 28, 2020, 06:21:23 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/pennsylvania-state-house-andrew-lewis/index.html

On May 20, Pennsylvania state Rep. Andrew Lewis, a Republican, tested positive for the coronavirus.

On May 27 -- aka Wednesday -- his Democratic colleagues say he finally told them about the positive test

REPUBLICAN SCUMBAGS. You cant make this SH*T up!!!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 09:54:38 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/28/politics/pennsylvania-state-house-andrew-lewis/index.html

On May 20, Pennsylvania state Rep. Andrew Lewis, a Republican, tested positive for the coronavirus.

On May 27 -- aka Wednesday -- his Democratic colleagues say he finally told them about the positive test

REPUBLICAN SCUMBAGS. You cant make this SH*T up!!!
New pejorative noted...

Quote from: cnn
Lewis added that he followed the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's workplace exposure guidelines to determine who may have been exposed, saying, "I can confirm every member or staff member who met the criteria for exposure was immediately contacted and required to self-isolate for 14 days from their date of possible exposure."

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 28, 2020, 09:57:38 PM
Icing keeps blood from flowing to an area (constricts blood vessels), to prevent leaking from the capillaries and an inflammatory response, causing swelling - used mostly for traumatic injuries such as bruises and sprains, and initially for allergic reactions that swell. Heat is used to bring blood flow to an area, especially for infection when you want infection-fighting cells and chemicals there. A fever is heat to your whole body when fighting a systemic infection and it's probably best not to decrease it as long as it's not dangerously high, but it can sure make you feel like sh!t.

I suggested heat at this point, as it might help bring blood and cells to clear out residual inflammatory debris that could be there.
The one oral dose of Benadryl KO'd the lingering inflammation. Mission accomplished, thanx.

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 28, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
The one oral dose of Benadryl KO'd the lingering inflammation. Mission accomplished, thanx.

JR

Glad you're back in excellent form.

On another note, homo sapiens, thou art the highest form of intelligence in the known universe. I will "bare" with you.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 29, 2020, 03:46:15 AM
And this is what they put up around here. A mask could be anything -- including self-made from cloth.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 29, 2020, 07:03:22 AM
New pejorative noted...

JR

Nice. Put that one in a jar with 'Murica. The point is NOT the isolation protocol afterwards, but the fact that this person knew he tested positive and didn't tell his co-workers for over a week while they could have been spreading it... but you can keep fooling yourself.  Talk about moving some goal posts. That republican should pat himself on the back for hiding the fact that he tested positive and then did the right thing one week later... You are absolved, my son.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 29, 2020, 08:53:33 AM
Nice. Put that one in a jar with 'Murica. The point is NOT the isolation protocol afterwards, but the fact that this person knew he tested positive and didn't tell his co-workers for over a week while they could have been spreading it... but you can keep fooling yourself.  Talk about moving some goal posts. That republican should pat himself on the back for hiding the fact that he tested positive and then did the right thing one week later... You are absolved, my son.
Did you even read the link your posted?

from that link-
Quote from: CNN
Lewis added that he followed the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's workplace exposure guidelines to determine who may have been exposed, saying, "I can confirm every member or staff member who met the criteria for exposure was immediately contacted and required to self-isolate for 14 days from their date of possible exposure."

He claims that he "immediately" contacted every member or staff member who met criteria for exposure. I do not see how he put anybody at risk.

Instead of receiving sympathy for his medical condition, he is attacked and called a "scumbag"? Apparently you can make this shit up. 

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 29, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
No whataboutism is to excuse bad behavior by showing other examples...
JR

I had to take a look at this, & from what I can tell whataboutism is more about attempting to weaken the argument of your opponent by pointing out his hypocrisy (real or imagined.)  I think that is precisely what you were doing. 
I also don't buy this notion that you actually care about bad behavior on your side since you essentially dismiss the entire issue by asking whether there aren't "more important" issues to be concerned with. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 29, 2020, 10:11:38 AM
I had to take a look at this, & from what I can tell whataboutism is more about attempting to weaken the argument of your opponent by pointing out his hypocrisy (real or imagined.)  I think that is precisely what you were doing. 
I also don't buy this notion that you actually care about bad behavior on your side since you essentially dismiss the entire issue by asking whether there aren't "more important" issues to be concerned with.
I never argue with people about what they think I think...  ::)

Yes I was pointing out the obvious hypocrisy.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 29, 2020, 10:27:01 AM
More Republicans behaving badly. I'm in Illinois. Pritzker is our governor(D). In the small print, it says, "the life out of Illinois and small businesses".  The policies put in place probably saved this person's parents or grandparents. Politics aside, this is no way to teach children in the neighborhood how to behave and act... but one party seems to always be such a treat.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 29, 2020, 10:34:32 AM
Did you even read the link your posted?
Yes, I did.

from that link-
He claims that he "immediately" contacted every member or staff member who met criteria for exposure. I do not see how he put anybody at risk.

Are you telling me that the Republicans are actually now listening to the science? Only to deceive and withhold information. Everyone should have been notified and you know it. Why protect people behaving poorly? Why should I have sympathy for someone who represents a party that indirectly is pushing for the spread of the virus through their policies. Seems Darwinian to me.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 29, 2020, 10:39:59 AM
C'mon man ;D

Touché and well played.  I expect to see that at a political rally and/or protest. Not in the yards of my neighborhood. I can see a difference between the separate venues. I don't see offensive and provocative things like this in the yards of "lefties". In fact, they rarely politically identify in their yards. While you can find more contradictory images on the internet, I can ride around my neighborhood for a few minutes and come up with plenty of example via photography.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 29, 2020, 10:54:54 AM
And this is what they put up around here. A mask could be anything -- including self-made from cloth.
Hmm... I wonder if the different attitude has anything to do with these numbers:
Japan cases - 16,759    deaths  882
USA cases 1,758,153   deaths 102,957

But hey, we've got freedom!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on May 29, 2020, 11:03:43 AM
I don't see offensive and provocative things like this in the yards of "lefties". In fact, they rarely politically identify in their yards.
I sure don't put up political signs at my house - right wing aggressive retribution (property  damage) is likely a given in this hyper-conservative county.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on May 29, 2020, 11:14:02 AM


Yes I was pointing out the obvious hypocrisy.

JR

Hence, whataboutism. 

Wasn't that what I said?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on May 29, 2020, 05:40:26 PM
C'mon man ;D
Hmmm...so this is the counterargument to "but one party seems to always be such a treat"? 

How did you know which party these kids were representing?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on May 30, 2020, 12:39:07 AM
Hmm... I wonder if the different attitude has anything to do with these numbers:
Japan cases - 16,759    deaths  882
USA cases 1,758,153   deaths 102,957
Numbers in Japan are most likely underreported. If severely ill cases are added to current number of deaths  and the result is posited as 1 percent letality, current total of infections is probably between 80.000 and 100.000, and deaths at around 1.000. But even these numbers are probably still too low.

Excess deaths could be used as another indicator. Some argue that  lockdowns lead to more suicides and solitary heart attacks etc.

In Japan house sheltering was completely voluntary (strongly advised though). Well, in fact, people started self-restraint (wearing masks and avoiding random meetings) long before the government even considered any declaration other than Olympics-related.

Mortality data here has just shown that in the first three months of this year there was a 0.7 percent fall from the average, meaning less deaths. Less influenza cases (due to almost everyone wearing masks), fewer elderly confounding the gas with the break pedal, fewer low-income-related suicides among young people, fewer people accidentally falling of train platforms, fewer people dieing from knocking together IKEA furniture. Nobody knows. It's 'amazing -- like magic.'

Anyway, Japan has a population of 126M.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on May 30, 2020, 01:27:54 AM
Quote
Less influenza cases (due to almost everyone wearing masks),

What do these numbers look like?


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 30, 2020, 07:37:29 AM
I don't actually understand your question but, it made me think extra how tasteless it all is. I'm  removing it.

I actually had  similar feelings when the elections were done and the media was telling everyone how terrible of an example for children Trump was with all the porn star stuff,etc...... 

I used to be in awe anytime the President was talked about on tv in my childhood. I suppose ignorance was bliss then.

I have gone back and removed the image from your post which I quoted. I, at the very least, could practice what I preach. We should all speak out against people behaving poorly. This is how to teach the children... I'll give signs at protests a pass. 1st Amendment. Probably not a good place for the kids, anyway. Definitely not a situation resulting in permanently, unavoidable posted signs.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 30, 2020, 07:44:19 AM
I sure don't put up political signs at my house - right wing aggressive retribution (property  damage) is likely a given in this hyper-conservative county.

Therein lies the problem. I just don't see the people with "Peace" and "Co-Exist" bumper stickers behaving the same way... which are more rare than inflammatory bumper stickers, even within the Chicago suburbs. I guess there is no shame.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on May 30, 2020, 09:21:13 AM
I sure don't put up political signs at my house - right wing aggressive retribution (property  damage) is likely a given in this hyper-conservative county.
I don't put up political signs on my property either but not because of right wing retribution.  ::) I do remove all the political signs that people put on my property without permission and I don't give anybody permission. Perhaps my yard is popular because I live about 100 yards from the local polling place.

I even removed a Vote Obama/Biden sign from my yard one year.    :o

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on May 31, 2020, 01:08:48 AM
I even removed a Vote Obama/Biden sign from my yard one year.    :o

JR

It's your yard. Regardless of political position, no one has a right to do that. I would pull the sign, even if it benefited my position, out of principle. The issue I have is, enough people chose a governor in my state, via elections. I ASSume that more than 50% did so... even if through mail-in-votes, hence the outcome. Now, I've got multiple neighbors that make their "point", knowing full well that they have made damn well sure that over 50% of the neighborhood has been made unwelcome. So much for the housewarming pie. Unnecessary and unhelpful. Can't say the same about the rare, bold household that plants a "Hate Has No Home Here" sign. How dare they be so bold, as diesel fumes spew with Confederate Flags flying in the back of the pick-ups... in my neighborhood. One could just wave hello, instead of doing what they do. I'm not making this sh*t up. I suppose they'll teach me one of these days.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on June 02, 2020, 07:33:22 AM
I would ASSume the "How dare they" question /comment made me seem quite the fool in our "freedom of speech" constitutional rights spewing society.  Because I am obviously a left-leaning crunchy hippie, I play frisbee golf. I smoke pot too. Shocker. I went out into society to throw frisbees because restrictions are loosening and we can only stay inside so long. Golf is allowed in Illinois and has been for 2 weeks. Silly democratic governor allowed a few people to congregate together outside. I get it. Economy aside, it cannot be good for little children's brains to have no social interaction... same to be said for the adults.

I am white and have a shaved head because it is easy. Same for my friend who played "frolf/frisbee golf" for the second time ever, being yesterday. An INDIVIDUAL who felt FREE decided that he could say "Mind if I join you guys?" and it was an accepted self-invitation with other white dudes... and my left leaning buddy  said "Sure", not knowing golf etiquette and trying to be friendly. I saw the baseball hat with an American Flag that was actually made up of different rifle rounds, representing the stars and stripes. As this UNINVITED individual encroached on my friend and I, he made NO effort to social distance. Given HIS party's stance concerning the issue, I myself, SCIENTIFICALLY want to social distance  for REAL reasons. HIS party's behavior and stance about this virus can only make a person like this statistically more likely to be a carrier. My friend and I stayed well over 6 feet away from each other and walked to "said" park to not ride in he same vehicle together. Now this un-invited, gun proclaiming yahoo starts to  politicize Covid-19. All I say is: "Like mosquitos, we can't choose where that sh*t goes. You can't stop nature." Wow. The person who wanted to be antagonistic and argumentative didn't know what to say.  It's crazy how that is a STUMPER for freedom screamers... and then 10 minutes later he tried to convince me that ANTIFA dropped pallets of bricks around the country for anarchist protest reasons in major cities... WITH NO PROOF... I've been searching... nothing credible... HOLY SH*T. Twitter is NOT a news source.  I AM A JERK MAGNET. Time to grow out my hair and start wearing  tye-dye shirts. Uneducated, racist b*stards might stop trying to buddy up to me. Hide in the basement and turn off the lights. AMERICA MIGHT BE GREAT AGAIN... just look away. Not only can you not make this stuff up, but I can't keep these people away from me as I choose to NOT outwardly politically identify. May America get what it deserves.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: FarisElek on June 02, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
I would ASSume the "How dare they" question /comment made me seem quite the fool in our "freedom of speech" constitutional rights spewing society.  Because I am obviously a left-leaning crunchy hippie, I play frisbee golf. I smoke pot too. Shocker. I went out into society to throw frisbees because restrictions are loosening and we can only stay inside so long. Golf is allowed in Illinois and has been for 2 weeks. Silly democratic governor allowed a few people to congregate together outside. I get it. Economy aside, it cannot be good for little children's brains to have no social interaction... same to be said for the adults.

I am white and have a shaved head because it is easy. Same for my friend who played "frolf/frisbee golf" for the second time ever, being yesterday. An INDIVIDUAL who felt FREE decided that he could say "Mind if I join you guys?" and it was an accepted self-invitation with other white dudes... and my left leaning buddy  said "Sure", not knowing golf etiquette and trying to be friendly. I saw the baseball hat with an American Flag that was actually made up of different rifle rounds, representing the stars and stripes. As this UNINVITED individual encroached on my friend and I, he made NO effort to social distance. Given HIS party's stance concerning the issue, I myself, SCIENTIFICALLY want to social distance  for REAL reasons. HIS party's behavior and stance about this virus can only make a person like this statistically more likely to be a carrier. My friend and I stayed well over 6 feet away from each other and walked to "said" park to not ride in he same vehicle together. Now this un-invited, gun proclaiming yahoo starts to  politicize Covid-19. All I say is: "Like mosquitos, we can't choose where that sh*t goes. You can't stop nature." Wow. The person who wanted to be antagonistic and argumentative didn't know what to say.  It's crazy how that is a STUMPER for freedom screamers... and then 10 minutes later he tried to convince me that ANTIFA dropped pallets of bricks around the country for anarchist protest reasons in major cities... WITH NO PROOF... I've been searching... nothing credible... HOLY SH*T. Twitter is NOT a news source.  I AM A JERK MAGNET. Time to grow out my hair and start wearing  tye-dye shirts. Uneducated, racist b*stards might stop trying to buddy up to me. Hide in the basement and turn off the lights. AMERICA MIGHT BE GREAT AGAIN... just look away. Not only can you not make this stuff up, but I can't keep these people away from me as I choose to NOT outwardly politically identify. May America get what it deserves.

Your thoughts and feelings on this issue are very valid. Misinformation travels very fast through social media and that combined with group mentality is deadly. I’ve been thinking about the allegory of the cave a lot lately.

Also, hello fellow Illinoian!


Ryan
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 02, 2020, 11:31:17 AM
I would ASSume the "How dare they" question /comment made me seem quite the fool in our "freedom of speech" constitutional rights spewing society.  Because I am obviously a left-leaning crunchy hippie, I play frisbee golf. I smoke pot too. Shocker. I went out into society to throw frisbees because restrictions are loosening and we can only stay inside so long. Golf is allowed in Illinois and has been for 2 weeks. Silly democratic governor allowed a few people to congregate together outside. I get it. Economy aside, it cannot be good for little children's brains to have no social interaction... same to be said for the adults.

I am white and have a shaved head because it is easy. Same for my friend who played "frolf/frisbee golf" for the second time ever, being yesterday. An INDIVIDUAL who felt FREE decided that he could say "Mind if I join you guys?" and it was an accepted self-invitation with other white dudes... and my left leaning buddy  said "Sure", not knowing golf etiquette and trying to be friendly. I saw the baseball hat with an American Flag that was actually made up of different rifle rounds, representing the stars and stripes. As this UNINVITED individual encroached on my friend and I, he made NO effort to social distance. Given HIS party's stance concerning the issue, I myself, SCIENTIFICALLY want to social distance  for REAL reasons. HIS party's behavior and stance about this virus can only make a person like this statistically more likely to be a carrier. My friend and I stayed well over 6 feet away from each other and walked to "said" park to not ride in he same vehicle together. Now this un-invited, gun proclaiming yahoo starts to  politicize Covid-19. All I say is: "Like mosquitos, we can't choose where that sh*t goes. You can't stop nature." Wow. The person who wanted to be antagonistic and argumentative didn't know what to say.  It's crazy how that is a STUMPER for freedom screamers... and then 10 minutes later he tried to convince me that ANTIFA dropped pallets of bricks around the country for anarchist protest reasons in major cities... WITH NO PROOF... I've been searching... nothing credible... HOLY SH*T. Twitter is NOT a news source.  I AM A JERK MAGNET. Time to grow out my hair and start wearing  tye-dye shirts. Uneducated, racist b*stards might stop trying to buddy up to me. Hide in the basement and turn off the lights. AMERICA MIGHT BE GREAT AGAIN... just look away. Not only can you not make this stuff up, but I can't keep these people away from me as I choose to NOT outwardly politically identify. May America get what it deserves.
(https://theohiostar.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/bricks-in-the-street_840x480.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/06/01/17/29085158-8377069-image-a-1_1591028395203.jpg)
It is human nature to look for conspiracies behind what could be coincidences.

Police departments in a number of large cities (NYC, Kansas City, Dallas, Fayetteville (?) NC) have reported finding stashes of bricks and even accelerants.

The best (most insane) conspiracy theory I heard said that the police planted the bricks so they could charge peaceful protestors with more serious crimes.  ::)  The photos could be staged or even faked.

Sometimes if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.... sometimes it isn't.  This is sure a bright shiny distraction to change the topic of discussion.

JR   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: FarisElek on June 02, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Those are construction sites that happen to be near protests. But yeah, it's easy to find bullsh*t if that's what you're looking for. First of all, there is no way for antifa to supply bricks to anyone. It's not an organization, there are no meetings, there is no council, there is no source of funding, etc. Antifa is simply a philosophical belief. It's short for anti-fascist. I hope and assume everyone on this board is anti-fascist. In Austin, many of the aggressors at the protests (there weren't many), were actually identified and there facebooks were shared. The main couple I saw were super far right white guys causing trouble to discredit the movement. Every day keeps getting crazier. But I like to see it as it has to get really bad before it gets better. So I hope for true peace and justice for us soon, instead of the false peace we've been living in for decades.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 02, 2020, 04:32:24 PM
Those are construction sites that happen to be near protests.
I am not promotong this conspiracy (either one) but reportedly there was no construction going on in these several down town areas, and construction sites don't generally leave raw materials laying around on city sidewalks, where they can walk away. (Still could have been false flag.)
Quote
But yeah, it's easy to find bullsh*t if that's what you're looking for.
hard to avoid it these days
Quote
First of all, there is no way for antifa to supply bricks to anyone. It's not an organization, there are no meetings, there is no council, there is no source of funding, etc.
no antifa meetings here in small town MS.

These days the only openly public funding is to bail out innocent protesters who "accidentally" looted and destroyed private property.  The rest is done on the down low indirectly through like minded groups, because they have been closely watched for years. Antifa is not a new group. Reportedly they used secure (thank you apple) communications to scout and direct attacks.
Quote
Antifa is simply a philosophical belief. It's short for anti-fascist.
Ironic name isn't it...?  Cover for anarchy.

Quote from: wiki
The antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] movement in the United States is a militant, predominantly left-wing, anti-fascist political activist movement[7][12] that comprises autonomous activist groups that aim to achieve their political objectives through the use of direct action rather than through policy reform.[13][14][15][16] Activists engage in varied protest tactics, including digital activism, property damage and physical violence, and harassment against those whom they identify as fascist, racist, or on the far-right.[22]
Individuals involved in the movement tend to hold anti-authoritarian and anti-capitalist views[23] and subscribe to a range of left-wing ideologies such as anarchism, communism, Marxism, social democracy and socialism.[24][31] Both the name antifa and the logo with two flags representing anarchism and communism are derived from the German Antifa movement.[32]
Quote
I hope and assume everyone on this board is anti-fascist.
yup,,, as a nation we have been anti-fascist since before WWII when there were real facist leaders in power around the world, and a real threat to liberty.
Quote
In Austin, many of the aggressors at the protests (there weren't many), were actually identified and there facebooks were shared. The main couple I saw were super far right white guys causing trouble to discredit the movement. Every day keeps getting crazier.
Doxxing is a tactic used by radical groups.

 Austin it pretty liberal/progressive, but even in Austin I would not expect rioting to be condoned. I searched Austin antifa and my head hurts,  ::) who were the Austin Antifa three? (2016). 
Quote
But I like to see it as it has to get really bad before it gets better. So I hope for true peace and justice for us soon, instead of the false peace we've been living in for decades.
Hell no.... Are you encouraging or promoting more violence? ("But I like to see it as it has to get really bad before it gets better") That is not a path to any kind of peace or justice in any world... 

False peace?  You are imagining a false war.

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 02, 2020, 09:52:46 PM
I'm guessing this is some wacky conspiracy theory but I must admit I'm curious: Who exactly might want to further weaken our economy?
my fault I guess... this should be in the covid politics thread...(i moved it).

It is (or should be) common knoweledge that a strong economy favors the incumbent, so logically a weak economy hurts the incumbent.

I won't generate a full list but one notable talking head who suggested that a failing economy would be worth it to get rid of POTUS, was HBO's bill marr...

https://www.newsweek.com/bill-maher-donald-trump-economy-recession-967984 (https://www.newsweek.com/bill-maher-donald-trump-economy-recession-967984)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 11, 2020, 09:38:14 PM
"By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury."

The campaign is not expected to require guests to wear masks or socially distance at the event, as Trump has chafed at the optics of both.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elections-2020/trump-rally-sign-up-includes-disclaimer-about-potential-covid-19-exposure/ar-BB15mmDB?ocid=bingcovid

Which to me translates as "If you f**kers are stupid enough to attend my harangue, not wear masks or social distance, you're on your own whether you get sick from this or from anywhere else that you've gone."

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on June 12, 2020, 06:32:50 AM
"By clicking register below, you are acknowledging that an inherent risk of exposure to COVID-19 exists in any public place where people are present. By attending the Rally, you and any guests voluntarily assume all risks related to exposure to COVID-19 and agree not to hold Donald J. Trump for President, Inc.; BOK Center; ASM Global; or any of their affiliates, directors, officers, employees, agents, contractors, or volunteers liable for any illness or injury."

The campaign is not expected to require guests to wear masks or socially distance at the event, as Trump has chafed at the optics of both.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/elections-2020/trump-rally-sign-up-includes-disclaimer-about-potential-covid-19-exposure/ar-BB15mmDB?ocid=bingcovid

Which to me translates as "If you f**kers are stupid enough to attend my harangue, not wear masks or social distance, you're on your own whether you get sick from this or from anywhere else that you've gone."

And weirdly, we're now at point where this is utterly unsurprising and just what we would expect from them, isn't it?

Trump really does not care about people.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 16, 2020, 12:56:51 PM
Perhaps a better topic for the COVID politics thread, the nature of a massive infection (pandemic) is that death tolls and infections will continue to rise over time (with hyperbolic news reporting every new big number milestones). Further increased testing will logically result in more confirmed cases (duh).

I am not smart enough to predict a second wave (or third) but of course we should be cautious. I will predict that we are far better prepared now to deal with any future waves, than we were.

====
New study suggests steroids can significantly improve survival rate....  This is well known that steroids reduce inflammation, of course they can also have secondary effects.

JR
As suggested, I'll transfer this to the politics thread. I'm not talking about media hyperbole and new cases - there are increases in hospitalizations, which have nothing to do with testing - the disease is making a comeback. Again, those in charge are ignoring the initial signs that things are getting worse, and by the time they realize it, some areas will be in sh*t city again, the way Europe and the northeast US were initially, with the medical system overwhelmed.
Gradual opening of society is the right thing to do, but apparently a lot of folks think this means the pandemic is over, and they can now ignore the mitigation measures that have helped in the recent past. Congregations of people without distance and masks are bringing it back again.
And the worst of all, the leader, who should be doing everything he can to rationally respond to the pandemic, is doing the stupidest thing possible, and those who will model his behavior will lead to more illness, death, and further economic and societal problems.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 16, 2020, 01:29:50 PM
As suggested, I'll transfer this to the politics thread. I'm not talking about media hyperbole and new cases - there are increases in hospitalizations, which have nothing to do with testing - the disease is making a comeback. Again, those in charge are ignoring the initial signs that things are getting worse, and by the time they realize it, some areas will be in sh*t city again, the way Europe and the northeast US were initially, with the medical system overwhelmed.
It looks like Beijing has spike related to one huge meat/produce market. May be a super infector (like that S Korea night club spike), or they missed the initial wave.

I expect that health professionals are monitoring this far more closely than I could even if I tried. I have seen predictions of a next wave expected in Sept...  News media appears to report that the sky is falling daily.
Quote

Gradual opening of society is the right thing to do, but apparently a lot of folks think this means the pandemic is over, and they can now ignore the mitigation measures that have helped in the recent past. Congregations of people without distance and masks are bringing it back again.
People are friggin idiots...
Quote

And the worst of all, the leader, who should be doing everything he can to rationally respond to the pandemic, is doing the stupidest thing possible, and those who will model his behavior will lead to more illness, death, and further economic and societal problems.
ah hah... President Trump is trying to kill off his voters, or is as stupid as his opposition thinks (hopes).  Speaking of politics it is instructive to hear that it is OK to ignore social distancing if the cause is important (like BLM), but republican or religious assembly is just unacceptable.

I have a hard time filtering out political bias from so many otherwise respected authorities. There will be obvious political winners and losers from keeping the economy shuttered even longer than necessary. That doesn't mean they are lying but politicians often bend the truth for personal advantage.

Time will tell if large assemblies of people trigger spikes or even new waves. I am not smart enough to predict, but I am smart enough to suspect bias in different authorities.

Apparently my local churches reopened sunday, but not my idea of how to spend sunday mornings, so I have no idea if they wore masks. My guess is that many did... I can ask, but it might be unsafe to talk with my neighbor now if he got infected in church.  ::)

Be careful everybody, wash your hands. Stop picking your nose.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 16, 2020, 02:25:42 PM
President Trump is trying to kill off his voters, or is as stupid as his opposition thinks (hopes). 
As a narcissist, he is an addict to adulation, and can't help himself. He will succumb to his addiction, even if it means his demise.
Quote
Speaking of politics it is instructive to hear that it is OK to ignore social distancing if the cause is important (like BLM), but republican or religious assembly is just unacceptable.
The mitigating factors are that they (BLM) were outside, and most wore masks. Not what will happen in a lot of projected situations. We shall see.
Quote
Time will tell if large assemblies of people trigger spikes or even new waves.
Right - and my bet is they will.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on June 16, 2020, 03:30:16 PM
Speaking of politics it is instructive to hear that it is OK to ignore social distancing if the cause is important (like BLM), but republican or religious assembly is just unacceptable.
The moment that Trump supporters are choked to death, and then gassed, pepper sprayed, and beaten by the police for protesting, then you might have a valid point.

Otherwise, apples, meet oranges.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 16, 2020, 04:20:34 PM
Let's hope this doesn't happen...

I guess we can monitor it some here.....

https://gis.cdc.gov/grasp/COVIDNet/COVID19_5.html
We'd need state-by-state data or graph of daily new hospitalizations to see even a delayed picture of what's changing where (and I can't find one). Thanks for the link, but it only provides data for 100 counties in 10 selected states, only gives hospitalizations per 100k population, and seems to be at least a couple of weeks behind. And if hospitalization is a week or more behind the onset of an individual's disease, and our data is a couple of weeks behind that, we have no idea how the pandemic is progressing in real time.

The Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)-Associated Hospitalization Surveillance Network (COVID-NET) conducts
population-based surveillance for laboratory-confirmed COVID-19-associated hospitalizations in children (persons
younger than 18 years) and adults. The current network covers nearly 100 counties in the 10 Emerging Infections
Program (EIP) states (CA, CO, CT, GA, MD, MN, NM, NY, OR, and TN) and four additional states through the Influenza
Hospitalization Surveillance Project (IA, MI, OH, and UT). The network represents approximately 10% of US
population (~32 million people)
.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 16, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Can't blame this orange for trying

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtgDmS3iwo
Yeah, putting on the dog whistle cap really got his message across.  ::) And then "give me money" in the video.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on June 16, 2020, 06:42:17 PM
From what I've read the virus is expected to hit rural areas and red states harder soon, since a lot of people there either don't/didn't follow scientific recommendations as closely, are poorer and have less access to quality health care and often their state governments opt(ed) to keep businesses, churches etc. open.

The BLM protests surely will account for additional infections, but probably far less than the above.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 16, 2020, 08:01:59 PM
and this is why I spend less time around here...  I was having better arguments with myself. 
===
On topic the "can't sue" waivers are generally not upheld by courts, but guess what..? Having to sign a waiver that you could get sick and maybe die from attending the rally, might just impress, even dumbass Trump voters, to wear their masks and social distance....  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 16, 2020, 08:07:14 PM
"In recent days, the media has taken to sounding the alarm bells over a 'second wave' of coronavirus infections. Such panic is overblown," Pence wrote in a Wall Street Journal opinion piece. https://www.wsj.com/articles/there-isnt-a-coronavirus-second-wave-11592327890 "We are winning the fight against the invisible enemy."

"The definition of insanity (or supreme stupidity) is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results."
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on June 17, 2020, 01:04:55 AM
Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MtgDm
Yeah, putting on the dog whistle cap really got his message across
Methinks that guy is rather a comedian.

In that context, kneeling down is the symbol of solidarity and 'uniting', and not shouting through a megaphone and repeatedly shouting: "I'm out -- I'm out!" -- Dodgy and not so good comedy  ::)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on June 17, 2020, 07:26:37 AM
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/17/global-report-six-us-states-report-most-ever-new-coronavirus-cases
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 17, 2020, 01:13:24 PM
Quote
Quote
from: JohnRoberts on Today at 11:28:25 AM
A campaign event with closely spaced people yelling and cheering seems likewise another super spreading opportunity.
If there's a documented spike in Tulsa from this, his re-opening campaign rally could be the final spike in his campaign coffin.

(Oops - should have gone to the politics thread - hard to keep politics and covid separate, they're so intertwined.)
fixed it for ya...
===
In my judgement it isn't covid but the inflamed political climate that makes it so hard for us to keep in our lanes.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM
If there's a documented spike in Tulsa from this, his re-opening campaign rally could be the final spike in his campaign coffin.

(Oops - should have gone to the politics thread - hard to keep politics and covid separate, they're so intertwined.)


Please try a little harder. In my judgement it isn't covid but the current political climate that has smeared the lines separating topics. I was not trolling for political commentary but understand how some could take it that way.

JR
Sorry about that - over to politics. In my judgment politics is the major factor in the USA having  by far the worst outbreak of covid in the world, by Trump denying the onset and apparently thinking that if he admitted its existence and did anything about it, it would be bad for him politically (and personally of course). Also the politics of the people denying its seriousness and not complying with the mitigation measures, because "the gov'mint can't tell me what to do and take away my freedom." Now, with Pence doing the same thing in his op-ed, the same thing is happening again and there's going to be more societal disruption and many folks are going to needlessly get sick and die.

Edit: I guess you were fixing it while I was fixing it.  :)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 17, 2020, 02:11:05 PM
If your judgement is correct and Trump/Pence kill off a bunch of their own republican voters, your problems are solved.

I still can't predict the future.

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 17, 2020, 02:46:58 PM
Why is wearing masks such a political thing? It makes zero sense. It is not an infringement of rights to require people to not do harm to others.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 17, 2020, 03:50:04 PM
Why is wearing masks such a political thing? It makes zero sense. It is not an infringement of rights to require people to not do harm to others.
It isn't...

JR 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 17, 2020, 04:57:59 PM
If your judgement is correct and Trump/Pence kill off a bunch of their own republican voters, your problems are solved.

I still can't predict the future.

JR
I'm glad you said it - it would be politically incorrect for me to say it.  :-X
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 17, 2020, 05:30:34 PM
It isn't...

JR

There are countless stories on the topic.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 21, 2020, 11:52:38 AM
OK, I'll move this to the politics thread since having to do with gov'mints and "freedoms" makes it political, even though it's a driver behind the new covid surges that are coming..

    Still, the decision to not allow the few N95's available worldwide to be wasted was a sensible call ( that is, wasted by us, people who mostly don't know or did not know back then how to use those masks correctly anyway ). The healthcare infrastructures needed to be protected. Question of logistics. Sad but simple.

Of course. Conspiracy theories aside, people and institutions dealing with the pandemic initially tried to have an adequate supply of masks and PPE for the health personnel involved. The government telling people (especially Amurcans)  to do something that limits their "freedoms" has the opposite effect, so telling them that masks help but to use non-medical face coverings would have made an even worse run on medical masks ("the gov'mint cain't tell me what to do"). More effective just to tell them they don't need to wear masks.

Now the gov'mint is telling them that face coverings help, so they're refusing to wear them. Not that the gov'mint was right - it's just a no-win situation.  ::)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: scott2000 on June 21, 2020, 03:34:26 PM
(https://dataviz.nbcnews.com/projects/20200302-covid-timeline/assets/ss-200305-twip-13_2f6b101eec60f01ea69c57b92f44c378.fit-880w.jpg)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 21, 2020, 05:52:59 PM
The government telling people (especially Amurcans)  to do something that limits their "freedoms" has the opposite effect...

I think you have a distorted perspective of a section of America.  We should ALL be standing up for freedom and raising loud objections when the government infringes on it.

The issue in this case was a failure of leadership from government and public health officials.  The group of people you look down upon are also often the first to be willing to help their neighbors. All that was needed to happen was to educate the public on the benefits of mask wearing. I protect you,  you protect me.  Frame it as looking out for your fellow American and it would have worked.

Instead the leaders screwed it up and things got politicized.  Both sides choose party over the public. The constant barrage of  misinformation and nonsense from cnn msnbc and fox news doesn't help either.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 21, 2020, 08:34:02 PM
We should ALL be standing up for freedom and raising loud objections when the government infringes on it.
"Freedoms" is in quotes because I'm talking about the "freedom" to inflict damage on others. We all drive on the right side of the road (USA) to avoid hurting ourselves and others. Wearing a mask and physical distancing during a pandemic, to the best of our current knowledge, will do the same. Those who don't are either ignorant (failure of leadership) or uncaring.

Quote
The issue in this case was a failure of leadership from government and public health officials.  The group of people you look down upon are also often the first to be willing to help their neighbors. All that was needed to happen was to educate the public on the benefits of mask wearing. I protect you,  you protect me.
Agreed. But the people I look down upon are sycophants of the of the "leader" who should have lead, and these followers apparently don't have the wherewithal or the interest to figure it out for themselves. Most public health people did the best they could with limited information, and under political pressure from the "leader".
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 21, 2020, 10:21:42 PM
Those who don't are either ignorant (failure of leadership) or uncaring.

I agree.  But think we differ in the breakdown of each. meaning I think a lot could be solved through leadership and education. Unfortunately there is not a competent leader on the horizon,  at least not among the 2 dominant choices.

The freedom part, and rights in general,  is often interesting,  as  both sides tend to selectively apply them based on the narrative.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on June 22, 2020, 04:47:06 AM
oops!

"GOP Sheriff Who Refused To Enforce Coronavirus Lockdown Tests Positive At White House
Arizona Sheriff Mark Lamb said he likely contracted COVID-19 at a campaign event. He tested positive ahead of meeting with Donald Trump."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-sheriff-coronavirus-white-house_n_5eeb5391c5b609f5b6d90af8?fbclid=IwAR2Xxs1BRwpy-Hi_45EG1a-GCgLVBjGZJGgcUrIueE74ncJafkaMCiz3iMo
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 22, 2020, 06:56:58 AM
Apparently the key to beating the virus is to do less testing so you have less cases.

"When you do testing to that extent you're going to find more people. You're going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down please."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-21/donald-trump-says-ordered-slowdown-coronavirus-testing/12377556

They are now trying to claim it was a joke.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 22, 2020, 09:27:51 AM
Apparently the key to beating the virus is to do less testing so you have less cases.

"When you do testing to that extent you're going to find more people. You're going to find more cases, so I said to my people, 'Slow the testing down please."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-21/donald-trump-says-ordered-slowdown-coronavirus-testing/12377556

They are now trying to claim it was a joke.
How could it be anything but..?  I FF through most of his speech but he made numerous satirical comments, along with his typical blather. He uses media as a punching bag as much or more than attacking democrats.

He was highlighting how the increased number of cases because of increased testing is reported by hyperbolic news as a new excuses to slow down reopening the economy. The US lagged in testing early on, but has caught up. Reopening the economy is likely to precipitate more cases. This is expected and tolerable as long as hospital resources do not get exceeded.

We'll know soon enough if this caused a new spike in cases among President Trump's fans. I read an early report that the Floyd protests did not cause a Covid spike in those cities.

JR

PS: I wouldn't attend one of these rallies even before COVID. I've been in the same room with the US president before, decades ago (albeit a very large room, but smaller than a stadium.)

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 22, 2020, 09:55:19 AM
How could it be anything but..?
This guy is the farthest thing from the leader we need to get us through this. Whether it's a serious statement or a joke, this and multiple other screwups, lies, ignorant statements and "jokes" have shown that as a human being and as a president he doesn't have a clue how to run a country (except into the ground).

Quote
He was highlighting how the increased number of cases because of increased testing is reported by hyperbolic news as a new excuses to slow down reopening the economy. The US lagged in testing early on, but has caught up. Reopening the economy is likely to precipitate more cases. This is expected and tolerable as long as hospital resources do not get exceeded.

We'll know soon enough if this caused a new spike in cases among President Trump's fans. I read an early report that the Floyd protests did not cause a Covid spike in those cities.
It looks like he, many governors, and significant portions of the population don't have a clue that this disease is running rampant again, and what we see now is a reflection of what was happening several weeks ago. They think because we're "opening up" that it's over, and mitigation measures are no longer needed. The purpose of restarting things slowly was to avoid overwhelming the medical system again, but we see that starting to happen now in several states. What's actually happening now (the infection rate) is the sh*t that's going to hit the fan in the next few weeks. Woe is us.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 22, 2020, 12:33:15 PM
This guy is the farthest thing from the leader we need to get us through this. Whether it's a serious statement or a joke, this and multiple other screwups, lies, ignorant statements and "jokes" have shown that as a human being and as a president he doesn't have a clue how to run a country (except into the ground).
That's why we have elections... you can register your opinion in mere months.
Quote

It looks like he, many governors, and significant portions of the population don't have a clue that this disease is running rampant again, and what we see now is a reflection of what was happening several weeks ago.
I am not a medical expert like you, but reportedly a lot of the new cases are increasingly from young adults, who enjoy much lower risk/death rates. These same youts were probably less rigorous about social distancing and PPE in the recent past.
Quote
They think because we're "opening up" that it's over, and mitigation measures are no longer needed.
mind reading again?
Quote
The purpose of restarting things slowly was to avoid overwhelming the medical system again, but we see that starting to happen now in several states. What's actually happening now (the infection rate) is the sh*t that's going to hit the fan in the next few weeks. Woe is us.
Your speculation is registered... I am not smart enough to predict the future, but really hope we learned something over the last several months. We have certainly learned a lot of mistakes to not repeat, about how to treat this and operate health care services. I expect health professions to be paying close attention to all the numbers, not just the media headlines used to scare us.

Older potentially more vulnerable people need to remain especially diligent.  I wore my mask and gloves to the Post office this morning.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on June 22, 2020, 01:47:31 PM
The average COVID patient who spent less than a week in ICU, costs over a million in the US.  Independent from who's footing the bill, that's roughly eight times what the rest of the civilised world spends.

Just something to ponder while you work out which one is the lesser evil this time.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 22, 2020, 03:51:22 PM
How could it be anything but..?

So no chance it has anything to do with an unscrupulous businessman looking to manipulate the numbers to make the balance sheet look better than it actually is?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 22, 2020, 04:44:30 PM
That's why we have elections... you can register your opinion in mere months.
I shall. But I learned about US elections in 1968 when I could have voted for the first time. There is only a binary choice, both selected by the autocracy/kleptocracy. So I didn't vote at all until 2000, when I decided I should at least vote for what I considered the lesser of two evils.
Quote
I am not a medical expert like you, but reportedly a lot of the new cases are increasingly from young adults, who enjoy much lower risk/death rates. These same youts were probably less rigorous about social distancing and PPE in the recent past.
I'm not an expert, but I certainly welcome their contribution to the herd immunity. Of course, they'd better stay away from Mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa, and any other old farts they're in contact with.
Quote
mind reading again?
Not mind reading - just observation and talking to a few dolts who live in my county. (73% for Trump in 2016.)
Quote
Your speculation is registered... I am not smart enough to predict the future, but really hope we learned something over the last several months. We have certainly learned a lot of mistakes to not repeat, about how to treat this and operate health care services. I expect health professions to be paying close attention to all the numbers, not just the media headlines used to scare us.

JR
I too hope we can keep it under contol.  A lot has been learned about how to treat the most severe cases, so maybe the mortality will be less in the future, but there is still the potential for overwhelmed hospitals by sheer numbers.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 22, 2020, 05:07:19 PM
I shall. But I learned about US elections in 1968 when I could have voted for the first time. There is only a binary choice, both selected by the autocracy/kleptocracy.
I didn't start voting until the 70s. It's kind of a participatory democracy thing... Our founders were a lot smarter than I will ever be.
Quote
So I didn't vote at all until 2000, when I decided I should at least vote for what I considered the lesser of two evils.
yes votes can actually count (old people understand that)... I don't mind young people who don't vote, makes mine worth more. Bernie bros are excited (again), but unclear that they will show up for Joe Biden.
Quote
I'm not an expert, but I certainly welcome their contribution to the herd immunity.
we need to keep leaning against r0, several moving parts.
Quote
Of course, they'd better stay away from Mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa, and any other old farts they're in contact with.
that was one of the obvious misses, some countries took a lot better care of their at risk aged populations.
Quote
Not mind reading - just observation and talking to a few dolts who live in my county. (73% for Trump in 2016.)
sorry... (not).  ;D
Quote
I too hope we can keep it under contol.  A lot has been learned about how to treat the most severe cases, so maybe the mortality will be less in the future, but there is still the potential for overwhelmed hospitals by sheer numbers.
I have heard horror stories about the first wave, but largely mismanagement. Hopefully we are smarter now (at least a little).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 22, 2020, 05:09:19 PM
There is only a binary choice, both selected by the autocracy/kleptocracy.

This is a large part of the problem that many don't, or  are unwilling, to recognize,  Tweedism run amok and the illusion of choice.

‘‘I don’t care who does the electing as long as I get to do the nominating." -Tweed
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 23, 2020, 12:57:11 PM
From the pure covid thread:
So my point is, all of this is a function of masks and distancing. As soon as it got nice out and places relaxed the rules, you get increases. Now that they're seeing a spike in cases I suspect people will start being a little more diligent and, in two weeks, you'll see the numbers drop.
Not so fast. You might see numbers drop a few weeks after people become a lot more diligent, which will still need things to get a lot more scary like they did in NY, NJ and MA. Maybe it's starting this week in the surging states. Apparently the political leaders of many states (and the country) don't understand the delay between asymptomatic infection, while it is spreading logarithmically during this time, and then shows up later as symptomatic disease. I guess they've got a hard row to hoe, between following the science of their medical advisors, and worrying about their future electability.

I'll move this response to the political thread.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 23, 2020, 12:58:55 PM
This is a large part of the problem that many don't, or  are unwilling, to recognize,  Tweedism run amok and the illusion of choice.

‘‘I don’t care who does the electing as long as I get to do the nominating." -Tweed
I am open to hear better solutions.

It is a typical strategy of autocracies to hold elections for show with hand government candidates.

One alternative to the strong two parties system is coalition governments with a changing mix of influence.

I feel pretty good about how well our founders crafted our system of governance, but multiple folks are testing it's limits pretty severely these days.

The woke warriors are running short of racist statues to tear down so are now targeting religious symbols. A little reminiscent of the Taliban/ISIS radicals destroying religious cultural sites.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 24, 2020, 01:51:20 PM
Well, it looks like the pandemic is out of control (just my uninformed opinion.) The stupidity and lack of self control of people (all the way to the top), and politicizing the mask/mitigation measures seem to be the main factors. Hop on for the ride, the sh!tstorm special is leaving the station.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 24, 2020, 02:33:33 PM
Media routinely overstates risk to scare viewers into watching.

Community spread (and testing) is expected to increase with reopening.

Young adults/kids who think they will live forever have ignored social distancing and mask use.

I repeat look at deaths not infections that will rise with the increased testing.

If the hyperbolic "sky is falling" news scares some young pukes into wearing masks and social distancing, it's not all bad.

JR

PS: Reportedly New Orleans turned around their bad trends by focussing on the higher at risk older aged community often in rest homes. Other regions have had success with similar strategy (protect the most at risk).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 24, 2020, 04:33:39 PM
I repeat look at deaths not infections that will rise with the increased testing.
And increased infections will rise with increased disease.

Hopefully the Decadron treatment and other improvements in medical knowledge will mitigate the death rate somewhat, so deaths won't increase at the same relative rate as they have in the past.

If anyone thinks this is all a result of hyperbolic media coverage, go look at some data:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/covid-19-positive-rate-bar
https://ourworldindata.org/epi-curve-covid-19
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 25, 2020, 01:10:49 AM
My fellow Americans:
Before holding a vote to mandate the wearing of masks in public places to stop the spread of coronavirus, Palm Beach County commissioners were harangued by residents who accused them of obeying the devil, imposing a communist dictatorship and dishonouring the American flag.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-53174415/they-want-to-throw-god-s-wonderful-breathing-system-out
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on June 25, 2020, 04:17:33 AM
I am open to hear better solutions.

Ways to fix the political system is probably another thread.  But it's about  .02% of the population who contributes most of the political donations.  So the candidates and their subsequent actions are very far removed from the  people they are supposed to represent.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on June 25, 2020, 04:39:39 AM
Media routinely overstates risk to scare viewers into watching.

Community spread (and testing) is expected to increase with reopening.

Young adults/kids who think they will live forever have ignored social distancing and mask use.

I repeat look at deaths not infections that will rise with the increased testing.

If the hyperbolic "sky is falling" news scares some young pukes into wearing masks and social distancing, it's not all bad.
Reminds me of Peter and the wolf story. The media lied so often, noone believes them now, although they
mighty speak the truth (on covid).
Although, mentioning hyperbolic, I usually think of something else...
"Greatest [insert random content] ever!!!"

Ways to fix the political system is probably another thread.  But it's about  .02% of the population who contributes most of the political donations.  So the candidates and their subsequent actions are very far removed from the  people they are supposed to represent.

Best democracy money can buy...
Maybe world government is already here ;)
Nobody noticed, because everybody was looking the wrong way- at national governments ::)

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 25, 2020, 10:13:23 AM
Reminds me of Peter and the wolf story. The media lied so often, noone believes them now, although they
mighty speak the truth (on covid).
by accident?  ;D
Quote
Although, mentioning hyperbolic, I usually think of something else...
"Greatest [insert random content] ever!!!"
yup, the blowhard in chief...  ;D
Quote
Best democracy money can buy...
Maybe world government is already here ;)
sadly there has been a major effort in the shadows to get one stood up for years (decades?). The primary stopper is lack of robust no strings funding. They have floated the concept of an international transaction tax, that could generate massive funds taking a cut from international trade volume. 
Quote
Nobody noticed, because everybody was looking the wrong way- at national governments ::)
Some are still paying attention but sadly mass market human attention span is easily distracted by the existential threat du jour. It appears that COVID has eclipsed climate change for the moment.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 26, 2020, 03:00:04 PM
Anyone know if telemedicine is being counted as a hospitalization? 

https://www.cms.gov/newsroom/fact-sheets/medicare-telemedicine-health-care-provider-fact-sheet
A hospitalization needs a formal (physical and administrative) admission to a hospital as an inpatient, and not just being in the hospital. Some patients come into the hospital and are put on a "hold" in a bed in a hospital room for up to 72 hours but are NOT admitted to the hospital and cannot get Medicare (and probably other insurance) benefits for hospitalized patients, especially afterwards for rehab and therapies.

But to answer the question, physicians can use telemedicine to evaluate and follow up hospitalized pateients, but the patient has to be physically admitted to and in the hospital. So no, telemedicine has nothing to do with counting the hospitalization beans.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 28, 2020, 01:45:37 PM
The more diagnoses a hospitalized patient has, the more the hospital gets paid. So I'd imagine if a patient hospitalized for a particular condition is also found to be positive for covid, it's added to his list of diagnoses and probably counted as a covid patient. So there are probably some hospitalizations in the covid count where the disease is not the reason for a hospital stay admisssion, and may not even be contributing to his morbidity. But if I were a patient hospitalized for, say, congestive heart failure, I'd rather not have covid too, which most likely would be a significant contributor to my morbidity or mortality.

Again, there are strict criteria for classification as a hospital admission, and neither telemedicine nor an ER visit has any bearing on it. But I'm sure there are shenanigans to manipulate data for maximum remuneration, which may affect the counts..
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on June 29, 2020, 08:02:43 AM
I've said it before, don't even try to compare numbers. It's impossible.

It's funny. I can remember Trump complaining about China manipulating numbers. Nobody doubts that's happened. And now the Trumpistas are doing the exact same thing.

It will be at the very least five years before we know anything solid about this virus. Unknown quantities seem hard to accept for a lot of people, so media try hard to provide facts. Only these facts aren't solid at all, yet.

- Prolonged immunity is not certain. It might be for the rest of your life, or it could be six months.

- Testing vaccines will take at least a year. What's being done now, is estimating corner-cutting in testing these. One has to hope for the best.

- It's clear that relaxing and doing nothing isn't the best strategy in the short term. We don't know about medium term, but how about long-term?

- We still can't tell all the ways the virus makes people sick, as it attacks the immune system, opening things for all kinds of other microbes. A few statistic indicators exist already, but as the numbers of infections go down, the signal is getting drowned in noise. Noise from politicians, mostly.

The Trumps and Bolsonaro's aren't doing the world a favour. On the contrary.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 29, 2020, 10:05:49 AM
but as the numbers of infections go down, the signal is getting drowned in noise.
I don't know where you're getting that. The mortality rate is improving (maybe it's killed off a larger percentage of the vulnerable  :) ) , but the number of infections continues to increase.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on June 29, 2020, 07:29:59 PM
I don't know where you're getting that. The mortality rate is improving (maybe it's killed off a larger percentage of the vulnerable  :) ) , but the number of infections continues to increase.

Mortality rate is based on the numbers of people dying from COVID induced disease.

Major problem #1: we don't know all the forms of disease induced by COVID. What about the Kawasaki-like infection in kids? That's the fourth COVID-related disease I've noticed. How many more are there? And how many are counted as COVID deaths?

Major problem #2: all sorts of manipulations of the numbers. Of course, Trump and Bolsonaro are leading, but even simple mistakes (Italy and NY spring to mind) are enough to statistically obscure a lot. Most importantly the trend (up or down).

It's a slow virus. In a year or so we'll be able to look back and estimate the error. 5%? or 50%?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 29, 2020, 11:04:36 PM
Mortality rate is based on the numbers of people dying from COVID induced disease.
So what is covid induced disease? If someone is admitted to the hospital with CHF, decompensates and is transferred to the ICU, has to be intubated and ventilated due to his heart failure, a covid test on admission turns out to be positive, and the patient eventually dies, (may not have died without covid), is that a covid death? Things many times aren't black and white.

Quote
It's a slow virus. In a year or so we'll be able to look back and estimate the error. 5%? or 50%?
It's not a slow virus, at least in its major manifestations - it replicates quickly, That Multi-System Inflammatory Syndrome in kids seems to be slower,  likely to be due to the body's inflammatory response rather than slow viral replication, but most covid disease starts within a few days of infection.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on June 30, 2020, 09:26:50 AM
People are starting to review non-covid deaths for trend outliers. They discovered extra Alzheimer deaths that were above trend compared to previous years... they were expecting something like 85k deaths and had 100k for 3 month period this year. This does not mean that COVID literally killed all these elders, but already fragile while suffering from dementia, it doesn't take much to tilt the balance maintaining survival.

I suspect there are other un/mis-reported deaths to parse out, but mostly in already at-risk populations (obese, diabetic, heart disease, etc).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on June 30, 2020, 11:56:22 AM
So what is covid induced disease? If someone is admitted to the hospital with CHF, decompensates and is transferred to the ICU, has to be intubated and ventilated due to his heart failure, a covid test on admission turns out to be positive, and the patient eventually dies, (may not have died without covid), is that a covid death? Things many times aren't black and white.
It's not a slow virus, at least in its major manifestations - it replicates quickly, That Multi-System Inflammatory Syndrome in kids seems to be slower,  likely to be due to the body's inflammatory response rather than slow viral replication, but most covid disease starts within a few days of infection.

In the UK, a while ago, 42 kids had Inflammatory Syndrome. 38 of those tested positive for COVID. In Holland, a comparable number of patients had no positive test results for COVID. In both groups two kids died.

So, what are we looking at?

A flu virus is fast and simple. The results from this one are slow and complicated.

The testing of sewage seems to indicate that the virus was already everywhere before anyone took notice.  I also have the idea that incubation time could be much longer.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on June 30, 2020, 02:37:30 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/29/cdc-says-us-has-way-too-much-virus-to-control-pandemic-as-cases-surge-across-country.html (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/29/cdc-says-us-has-way-too-much-virus-to-control-pandemic-as-cases-surge-across-country.html)

This is frightening.  This is infuriating.  This should never have happened in this country.  I do not believe this would have happened if pretty much any other candidate in the 2016 field had been elected president--R or D.  Let's ignore his stubborness, his obstinacy, his short attention span and focus on what a horrible gambler he is. 

A friend of mine spent several years making her living as a poker player, & we spent a good bit of time discussing the game.  One of the biggest takeaways I had is that you don't bet on hunches or emotions, or what you want to happen--you bet on the math.  You may win, you may lose, but in the long run playing the odds, playing table position, etc. is how you win. 

Trump has consistently made choices in the COVID disaster not based on science but based on his "hunches" (COVID is like the flu, it will go away in hot weather, HCQ is a wonder drug, etc.) as well as desired outcome (he wanted the country to reopen, so it  was okay to reopen--even though it wasn't.)  Throw in his ignoring science (about mask wearing) because he didn't want his makeup to rub off on his mask (or some other vanity-related reason), and you get one of the hugest failures of leadership in this country's history. 

I'm not saying this as pro-Dem or anti- Repub--I'm simply anti-Trump here.  Jeb Bush would have been an order of magnitude better in this crisis than Trump.  Probably even Rubio or Cruz would have done a better job than Trump has.  The current push by certain Republicans to override Trump's anti-mask message shows how desperate even they are to do something to make things better.  Trump's idiotic policies are killing Americans, playing havoc with our economy, weakening the country's position on the global stage, making our country an object of pity and/or ridicule in other countries. 

It didn't have to be this way.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 30, 2020, 06:00:09 PM
It didn't have to be this way.
Like I said:
Well, it looks like the pandemic is out of control (just my uninformed opinion.) The stupidity and lack of self control of people (all the way to the top), and politicizing the mask/mitigation measures seem to be the main factors. Hop on for the ride, the sh!tstorm special is leaving the station.
It's our own fault: "The gov'mint cain't tell me what to do - I'm a 'Murican!" If enough folks climb out of that basket of deplorables, maybe we can get rid of at least one plague.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 30, 2020, 06:33:17 PM
A flu virus is fast and simple.
No.
Severe influenza infection represents a leading cause of global morbidity and mortality. Although influenza is primarily considered a viral infection that results in pathology limited to the respiratory system, clinical reports suggest that influenza infection is frequently associated with a number of clinical syndromes that involve organ systems outside the respiratory tract. A comprehensive MEDLINE literature review of articles pertaining to extra‐pulmonary complications of influenza infection, using organ‐specific search terms, yielded 218 articles including case reports, epidemiologic investigations, and autopsy studies that were reviewed to determine the clinical involvement of other organs. The most frequently described clinical entities were viral myocarditis and viral encephalitis. Recognition of these extra‐pulmonary complications is critical to determining the true burden of influenza infection and initiating organ‐specific supportive care.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5596521/

Quote
The testing of sewage seems to indicate that the virus was already everywhere before anyone took notice.  I also have the idea that incubation time could be much longer.
Where do you get those ideas?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on June 30, 2020, 07:02:22 PM
US buys up world supply of remdesivir...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drug (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/us-buys-up-world-stock-of-key-covid-19-drug)
If true, the rest of the world will love US for it. :-X

More remdesivir cannot be produced, because that would infringe on patent law.
And what in this world could be more urgent than adhereing to patent law? ;)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: pucho812 on June 30, 2020, 07:21:43 PM
here is what is going on lately in California,  Our governor spent a billion dollars on n95 masks. We never received the masks. The Chinese automaker who was going to make and supply them couldn't do it. they returned 1/4 of the billion dollars and the rest  has whereabouts that are unknown. I want my money back.  I am not sure if I mentioned that last time or if anyone really cares.  but worth mentioning.
We opened things recently. Restaurants at limited capacity,  Museums were open,  bars were allowed to be back in swing. Things were fine for a few weeks. During the same weeks we had massive amounts of crowds gathering both at bars and at protests. Both groups of people at times were far from social distancing and far from wearing masks. I saw the protests first hands when they walked by the studio, the majority were less then 6 feet apart, and most were not wearing any masks. The rioters were the same, no mask, no social distancing.   The governor this past Sunday,  suggested 14 counties in California need to curb the open bars and such. Of the 14, 6 had to mandatory shut it down because the bars caused a spike in numbers. L.A. county where I live is one of those places.  Now it went further down to a county wide shut down of all beaches, bike paths, trails, and everywhere else people will go for the July 4th weekend. The county cites the governors concerns. Our Mayor of l.a. further  cracked down and said no  public fireworks displays, along side the rest. What every single decision maker in California, did not do, is  put any blame on the protests going on.  That somehow you cannot get covid from going to a protest.  But you can sure get it from going to the pub or beach. As usual I find this to be such a joke.   Covid is serious, at least they could be honest and say, you might have passed it along when you were protesting, rioting and or looting. That is fair to say. It could have happened no more or less than it could have happened at the local pub you may have gone to.

What  really gets me is how they make that if you do action A like go to a pub, you can get covid, but if you do action B like  go shopping, you can't get covid. If you go to the beach and lie down you can get covid, but if you go to the beach and exercise, you can't get covid.   You can go fish at the beach and not get covid but only if you stand up and not sit down. They have no real clue out here, the just want to control every little aspect of our lives. I used to say I didn't vote for them, but even that doesn't bring joy any more.

So I propose, the following. According to the decisions makers out here, you cannot catch covid at Home Depot and target. So lets turn Home Depot and target into voting places, that way we can all go vote come November. We should also turn a section of Home Depot into a pub so you can go get your drinks without worry of covid.

For me I am pretty homebody when I am not at the studio. It's fairly easy for me to avoid the pub and such. But I do like to get my fishing on and be out in nature which I am now not allowed to do because I may catch covid from good knows what\ all from being on a path with others who are farther than 6 ft apart. 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 30, 2020, 07:45:27 PM
You'd think it would be easy enough (and maybe the contact tracers are doing this) to ask each new case "Were you at a protest?", "Were you at a bar or club?", "Were you at a big box store?", "Were you at the beach?" in the last two weeks. Then publish the data so we can all see what might be driving this surge.
But apparently contact tracing is FUBAR, like everything else associated with covid.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: pucho812 on June 30, 2020, 08:03:16 PM
You'd think it would be easy enough (and maybe the contact tracers are doing this) to ask each new case "Were you at a protest?", "Were you at a bar or club?", "Were you at a big box store?", "Were you at the beach?" in the last two weeks. Then publish the data so we can all see what might be driving this surge.
But apparently contact tracing is FUBAR, like everything else associated with covid.

Well you would think they would be honest and say "we don't know" or say "you might have caught it when you were protesting."   Why can't they just admit that is a potential cause of the virus? a large crowd is a large crowd regardless of where you are at.
I don't care much for our governor, I think he is a maroon, a nincompoop. I also think the same of my mayor and for the same reasons, they often open their mouth and say what they are thinking without thinking.  they have no real value then sucking off the government tit for a paycheck of which we provide the milk.
Now I get the safety thing, I am not pushing to go drink at a pub anytime soon.  But I do think we should be able to hike and bike with proper social distancing rules and masks without major issue.  seems to me it ism safer than  a large crowd at a protest.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on June 30, 2020, 08:14:52 PM
I agree - outdoor activities, especially those done alone or at good distance from others, should be left alone. Have they been closed in CA, or in LA anyway?

I'd also add that family gatherings are also a very likely sources of new cases and should unfortunately be discouraged and contact traced.
I was at Walmart today - CA's mandatory face covering has certainly made a difference. Now instead of 9 in 10 without masks, there are only 5 in 10 without them, even though the sign at the door says you must wear a face covering when shopping in the store.

 A 50% illiteracy rate is not bad for my county.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: pucho812 on June 30, 2020, 08:26:24 PM
I agree - outdoor activities, especially those done alone or at good distance from others, should be left alone. Have they been closed in CA, or in LA anyway?

I'd also add that family gatherings are also a very likely sources of new cases and should unfortunately be discouraged and contact traced.
I was at Walmart today - CA's mandatory face covering has certainly made a difference. Now instead of 9 in 10 without masks, there are only 5 in 10 without them, even though the sign at the door says you must wear a face covering when shopping in the store.

 A 50% illiteracy rate is not bad for my county.

yes they were closed for some time, then they reopened  the outdoor stuff. Now they closed them again because of covid. While I get their intentions and all  they surely don't comprehend  things. being far apart in nature should not be punished for close together at a bar or protest.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 01, 2020, 12:25:00 AM
sounds like some drama... hope this scares more people into safer behavior....

Wash your hands, wear a mask when in public, and practice social distancing.

JR

 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on July 01, 2020, 12:44:30 AM
Quote
Now I get the safety thing, I am not pushing to go drink at a pub anytime soon.  But I do think we should be able to hike and bike with proper social distancing rules and masks without major issue.  seems to me it ism safer than  a large crowd at a protest.
For the time being, majority of recent cases in Japan are infections traceable to host and hostess bars in red light districts, group restaurant visits, and family internal transmissions. Naturally, infections in puplic spaces (hike & bike) with proper physical distancing (longer slipstream in case of biking) are difficult to trace and therefore tend to show up as 'untraceable' -- but for now, in Japan, such cases are not the norm. Outdoors in general seems less 'dangerous' than anything indoors (closed spaces).

Outdoor sports/activities are also good for mental health -- so no reason to not allow, I'd guess. However, problems arise when all former night owls, pub dwellers, couch potatoes and gym goers all of a sudden all start jogging outdoors in the same public spaces all at once and all at the same time...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on July 01, 2020, 03:26:49 AM
use your survival instincts, which means don't count on anybody but yourself.

trust your intuition, be a lone wolf and hibernate, live like a hermit, quit having unprotected sex with multiple partners at the same time,  ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 01, 2020, 06:31:52 AM
No.
Severe influenza infection represents a leading cause of global morbidity and mortality. Although influenza is primarily considered a viral infection that results in pathology limited to the respiratory system, clinical reports suggest that influenza infection is frequently associated with a number of clinical syndromes that involve organ systems outside the respiratory tract. A comprehensive MEDLINE literature review of articles pertaining to extra‐pulmonary complications of influenza infection, using organ‐specific search terms, yielded 218 articles including case reports, epidemiologic investigations, and autopsy studies that were reviewed to determine the clinical involvement of other organs. The most frequently described clinical entities were viral myocarditis and viral encephalitis. Recognition of these extra‐pulmonary complications is critical to determining the true burden of influenza infection and initiating organ‐specific supportive care.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5596521/

That's true. But it's not the main argument. A lot of diseases can manifest themselves in other organs. But that's not the point.

The point is COVID, as a pandemic factor, is slower to spread than most other virii. I hope you're not denying that...

Quote
Where do you get those ideas?

From the people who report them. It took a while before they realised they had the data all along, since sewage sample are archived on at least a daily basis.

The first analysis dates back months. It was in The Netherlands, I think that someone put it on their daily checklist. Other European countries followed.

Of course, this doesn't come up on Fox. But even some MSM as reported it. Not on the main page, tho.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 01, 2020, 09:36:12 AM
use your survival instincts, which means don't count on anybody but yourself.

trust your intuition, be a lone wolf and hibernate, live like a hermit, quit having unprotected sex with multiple partners at the same time,  ;D
I have been sheltering in place pretty much all century.....

JR

PS: I am not a fan of conspiracy theories but this is the "politics" thread.  ::) There is a reportedly a recent lower threshold criteria used for "probable" covid cases being added to confirmed case numbers.  I can understand scaring people into behaving, especially when they demonstrate that they aren't behaving.  Caveat Lector...  We are still in the middle of this scrum so not time to relax yet. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 01, 2020, 01:51:50 PM
The point is COVID, as a pandemic factor, is slower to spread than most other virii. I hope you're not denying that...
If by slow you mean  an average of 5 days to onset of symptoms (though possibly contagious 2 to 3 days before that - called asymptomatic spread), as opposed to  2 to 3 days for influenza, I guess you could call it slow. However "slow virus" is a medical term with a completely different meaning and different pathogens, with a months to years time period from infection to onset of disease.

Quote
From the people who report them. It took a while before they realised they had the data all along, since sewage sample are archived on at least a daily basis.

The first analysis dates back months. It was in The Netherlands, I think that someone put it on their daily checklist. Other European countries followed.

Of course, this doesn't come up on Fox. But even some MSM as reported it. Not on the main page, tho.
If you mean that SARS-CoV-2 was found in sewage prior to the onset of the covid-19 pandemic, let's see some data. It's certainly not surprising it's shed in feces and found in sewage now with so many infections. It's one of the reasons I try not to eat sh!t. (When I lived in equatorial Africa a half century ago, I asked the doctor how I got dysentery - he said, and I quote, "From eating sh!t.")
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 01, 2020, 02:17:26 PM
here is what is going on lately in California,  Our governor spent a billion dollars on n95 masks. We never received the masks. The Chinese automaker who was going to make and supply them couldn't do it. they returned 1/4 of the billion dollars and the rest  has whereabouts that are unknown. I want my money back.  I am not sure if I mentioned that last time or if anyone really cares.  but worth mentioning.
I wrote about this at the time (weeks-months ago?)

Gov Newsome found out that he had placed a huge mask order with a start-up merchant who was aligned with the wrong political party (there are always a number of carpet baggers trying to capitalize on crisis driven markets, especially if they have government experience-connections), so he cancelled that order and cut a fast panic deal with BYD (chinese electric vehicle manufacturer) for >$1B worth of KN95 (Chinese version of N95) masks. BYD did not have the required NIOSH certification at the time so could not fulfill the order until dotting all the I's and crossing the t's (apparently the hang up was a factory visit/certification for the Chinese facility). BYD says it's a minor paperwork issue and that approval will come soon.  They are already selling lots of masks to other markets/customers.


CDC tested BYD masks and they delivered 99.78 filtering effectivity  so seems well above 95% spec.   
       BYD Precision Manufacture Co., Ltd.   DG3101   GB2626   99.78

CDC lists NIOSH approved n95 vendors including BYD
      BYD Precision Manufacture Co., Ltd.  86-752-511-8888   DE2322   84A-9221

CA could probably negotiate a lower price now as this supply chain is not as tight as it was months ago... but true NIOSH approved n95/kn95 masks are still selling for premiums to consumers... spit masks OTOH are down in the $0.50 ea range.

Unclear what is going on with CA, but what else is new.

JR 
Quote

We opened things recently. Restaurants at limited capacity,  Museums were open,  bars were allowed to be back in swing. Things were fine for a few weeks. During the same weeks we had massive amounts of crowds gathering both at bars and at protests. Both groups of people at times were far from social distancing and far from wearing masks. I saw the protests first hands when they walked by the studio, the majority were less then 6 feet apart, and most were not wearing any masks. The rioters were the same, no mask, no social distancing.   The governor this past Sunday,  suggested 14 counties in California need to curb the open bars and such. Of the 14, 6 had to mandatory shut it down because the bars caused a spike in numbers. L.A. county where I live is one of those places.  Now it went further down to a county wide shut down of all beaches, bike paths, trails, and everywhere else people will go for the July 4th weekend. The county cites the governors concerns. Our Mayor of l.a. further  cracked down and said no  public fireworks displays, along side the rest. What every single decision maker in California, did not do, is  put any blame on the protests going on.  That somehow you cannot get covid from going to a protest.  But you can sure get it from going to the pub or beach. As usual I find this to be such a joke.   Covid is serious, at least they could be honest and say, you might have passed it along when you were protesting, rioting and or looting. That is fair to say. It could have happened no more or less than it could have happened at the local pub you may have gone to.

What  really gets me is how they make that if you do action A like go to a pub, you can get covid, but if you do action B like  go shopping, you can't get covid. If you go to the beach and lie down you can get covid, but if you go to the beach and exercise, you can't get covid.   You can go fish at the beach and not get covid but only if you stand up and not sit down. They have no real clue out here, the just want to control every little aspect of our lives. I used to say I didn't vote for them, but even that doesn't bring joy any more.

So I propose, the following. According to the decisions makers out here, you cannot catch covid at Home Depot and target. So lets turn Home Depot and target into voting places, that way we can all go vote come November. We should also turn a section of Home Depot into a pub so you can go get your drinks without worry of covid.

For me I am pretty homebody when I am not at the studio. It's fairly easy for me to avoid the pub and such. But I do like to get my fishing on and be out in nature which I am now not allowed to do because I may catch covid from good knows what\ all from being on a path with others who are farther than 6 ft apart.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 01, 2020, 10:31:24 PM
If by slow you mean  an average of 5 days to onset of symptoms (though possibly contagious 2 to 3 days before that - called asymptomatic spread), as opposed to  2 to 3 days for influenza, I guess you could call it slow. However "slow virus" is a medical term with a completely different meaning and different pathogens, with a months to years time period from infection to onset of disease.

That's part of what I mean. Incubation time is longer, but also the spread of the virus is a lot slower.

Quote
If you mean that SARS-CoV-2 was found in sewage prior to the onset of the covid-19 pandemic, let's see some data. It's certainly not surprising it's shed in feces and found in sewage now with so many infections. It's one of the reasons I try not to eat sh!t. (When I lived in equatorial Africa a half century ago, I asked the doctor how I got dysentery - he said, and I quote, "From eating sh!t.")

No, I mean COVID19 was found in sewage samples as early as march 2019 in Europe. Don't remember which country. Earliest human cases were dec 2019 in France, jan 2020 in Belgium.

As I've said before, the transport is still unknown. We know cats, dogs, pigs, mink and a few other species can get infected. I've seen nothing about birds. And if the spread in Europe was already happening in early 2019, what was the transport medium?

Unfortunately, there's no data for sewage outside of Europe, AFAIK.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: CJ on July 02, 2020, 02:27:57 AM
if you put a UV light over your door it will kill the virus and keep out the Jehovah's Witnesses, 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on July 02, 2020, 07:48:51 AM
I'm back. Had to step away to watch all my rants come true. For those who are comparing protests to recreation.... STOP. Those protests couldn't be put on hold. Your trip to the beach can. There's a difference between change that has been needed for well over one hundred years and your snowflake needs to go out for recreation. I stayed home for almost 3 months and it paid off. The numbers in Illinois are very good. Look at the daily statistics vs. other states(especially red ones). Chicago is the 3rd largest city in the US.  Its protests were equally as large. Many, if not most, wore masks. We have NOT had a resurgence in Illinois. The protests were 4 weeks ago. The protests that people should be upset about were all the freedom screamers that participated openly inside their state capitols while not wearing masks while our country was trying to get a handle in this epidemic. Virus mitigation behavior was VISIBLY different at each of these events. Not only are the protests different, but most of the George Floyd protesters have not been brainwashed into believing this whole thing is a HOAX. Right-wingers who supported "opening" the country did NOT wear masks or practice social distancing because of a political ideology while trying to prove a point. Thanks for proving MY point. The head of said party is a moron that is making people sick and causing them to die. Why must humans touch the hot stove for themselves.  We need many more people to die to wisen up society and vote this fool out...  because I guess the white power video link via Twitter just isn't enough. I wish you poorly 'Murica. Freedom. How's your AR-15 at the Capitol building working out now? WOW. Death tolls follow case number surges.

*I do believe outdoor activities are safe with proper social distancing but people are not taking this thing seriously, hence(I believe), the over stringent rules on recreation.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on July 02, 2020, 07:53:24 AM
...and if you didn't b*tch to your governmental leaders about the sign that reads No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service before Corona Virus... shut your f*cking mouth about wearing a mask in public. You had you chance to scream freedom and you didn't.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 02, 2020, 10:07:58 AM
No, I mean COVID19 was found in sewage samples as early as march 2019 in Europe. Don't remember which country. Earliest human cases were dec 2019 in France, jan 2020 in Belgium.
Like I said, let's see some real data. It would be unlikely the same virus was extant for almost a year before causing an epidemic, unless it mutated to become more contagious. Viral genomes can be elucidated to see their change through time and location.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on July 02, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
Quote
Chicago is the 3rd largest city in the US.  Its protests were equally as large. Many, if not most, wore masks. We have NOT had a resurgence in Illinois.
That's two good reasons why this should be reassuring to all :)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 02, 2020, 11:25:43 AM
Like I said, let's see some real data. It would be unlikely the same virus was extant for almost a year before causing an epidemic, unless it mutated to become more contagious. Viral genomes can be elucidated to see their change through time and location.

https://www.ub.edu/web/ub/es/menu_eines/noticies/2020/06/042.html
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 02, 2020, 11:25:52 AM
Like I said, let's see some real data. It would be unlikely the same virus was extant for almost a year before causing an epidemic, unless it mutated to become more contagious. Viral genomes can be elucidated to see their change through time and location.

Sigh...

A 5 second search turned up this publication from the Spanish team:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20129627v1

I spose that was too hard for ya? Even MSM found it. It was published june 13 and by june 30, dozens of news outlets were reporting about it.

There have been several other observations, from other EU countries (France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy...). Obviously, there are no studies yet of the data itself, as all of this is brand new to everyone involved.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 02, 2020, 01:08:14 PM
Sigh...

A 5 second search turned up this publication from the Spanish team:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20129627v1

I spose that was too hard for ya? Even MSM found it. It was published june 13 and by june 30, dozens of news outlets were reporting about it.

There have been several other observations, from other EU countries (France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy...). Obviously, there are no studies yet of the data itself, as all of this is brand new to everyone involved.
Thanks Cyrano - obviously you are a better searcher than I.

Still to be seen is whether the virus fragments found have the same gene sequence as the current pandemic virus, but time will tell. It looks like the March 2019 single day finding is probably not the same, but more interesting if the more recent January and February 2020 samples are evidence of circulation in the Spanish (and probably other) populations concurrent to the ramp up in China.


Most COVID19 cases show mild influenza like symptoms and it has been
suggested that some uncharacterized influenza cases may have masked COVID-19
cases in the 2019-2020 season . This possibility prompted us to analyze some
archival WWTP samples from January 2018 to December 2019 (Figure 2). All samples
came out to be negative for the presence of SAR-CoV-2 genomes with the exception
of March 12, 2019, in which both IP2 and IP4 target assays were positive. This striking
finding indicates circulation of the virus in Barcelona long before the report of any COVID-19 case worldwide.

Barcelona is a business and commerce hub, as well as a
popular venue for massive events, gathering visitors from many parts of the world. It is
nevertheless likely that similar situations may have occurred in several other parts of the
world, with circulation of unnoticed COVID-19 cases in the community.


One of the comments on the paper:
the authors do not detect SARS-CoV-2 in samples from 2019 March. Rather, they do detect IP2/IP4 resembling SARS-CoV-2. Whatever virus it is it does not have the E and N1/N2 of SARS-CoV-2. Fluctuations in qRT-PCRs even in 2020 samples -different sewers- are way too high to trust the reliability of the RT-PCRs. However, their approach is amazing. I hope they use a metagenomic approach to sequence to sewers rather than doing an RT-PCR assay, which doesn't look very rigorous.

Thanks again Cyrano for bringing this to our attention. It looks like, if nothing else, sewage analysis might be a way to follow the prevalence of the virus in a population.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 02, 2020, 01:09:41 PM
https://www.ub.edu/web/ub/es/menu_eines/noticies/2020/06/042.html
Muchas gracias, pero mas facil leerlo en ingles.  :)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 02, 2020, 01:25:42 PM
Muchas gracias, pero mas facil leerlo en ingles.  :)

Just use google translate. I don't speak Spanish either.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 02, 2020, 06:25:40 PM
It's things like his that get to me:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jennysplitter/2020/07/02/primex-farms-coronavirus-outbreak/#303d0265e019

Quote
‘Everbody’s Infected’: 76 Farmworkers Test Positive In New Coronavirus Outbreak

And all the employer seems to care about, is the sales of their own masks...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 02, 2020, 06:50:31 PM
Just use google translate. I don't speak Spanish either.
I speak and read Spanish - English is faster.
There is a potentially significant difference in the Spanish (the original?) and English versions.
English:  All samples came out to be negative for the presence of SAR-CoV-2 genomes with the exception
of March 12, 2019, in which both IP2 and IP4 target assays were positive.

Spanish: All the samples were negative for the presence of SARS-CoV-2 genomes except for the one from March 12, 2019, in which the SARS-CoV-2 levels were very low but were clearly positive by PCR and, in addition, using two different targets ", explains the researcher.

That's what this commenter was discussing:
the authors do not detect SARS-CoV-2 in samples from 2019 March. Rather, they do detect IP2/IP4 resembling SARS-CoV-2. Whatever virus it is it does not have the E and N1/N2 of SARS-CoV-2. Fluctuations in qRT-PCRs even in 2020 samples -different sewers- are way too high to trust the reliability of the RT-PCRs. However, their approach is amazing. I hope they use a metagenomic approach to sequence to sewers rather than doing an RT-PCR assay, which doesn't look very rigorous.

Nit-picky I know, but more evaluation is needed to draw any conclusion about the virus being present in 2019.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 03, 2020, 09:50:18 AM
Quote
The disconnect in a universal process is odd to me.
Just look for the orangutan sitting up in the tree, eating a banana and playing with his dick, saying "Look at me!"

I don't see where we could have had much worse leadership during this time - I see myself lying beside the road because I don't care anymore. It will take a united effort of the population to find the best way through this, and it's not happening because of incompetence at the top.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 03, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
Just look for the orangutan sitting up in the tree, eating a banana and playing with his dick, saying "Look at me!"

I don't see where we could have had much worse leadership during this time - I see myself lying beside the road because I don't care anymore. It will take a united effort of the population to find the best way through this, and it's not happening because of incompetence at the top.
I recently discovered a pro administration news service ( OAN). It is a little disconcerting to hear news without the unending negative liberal/progressive spin.

The "friendly" news today included multiple suggestions that we may be nearing herd immunity with all these discovered asymptomatic cases. Of course this could just be a messaging judo flip to reframe all the "sky is falling" reported high case numbers as a positive. Hard to tell these days.   ::)

The good news is we will know soon enough if the end is getting closer for us or for covid...(my bet is that COVID loses),  while at risk people (like moi) need to continue to practice safe behavior.

Be safe...  wash your hands, wear mask, social distance.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 03, 2020, 01:44:52 PM
Quote
I recently discovered a pro administration news service ( OAN). It is a little disconcerting to hear news without the unending negative liberal/progressive spin.
I saw their white house correspondent during one of Pant-on-Fire's press conferences in the last few weeks. She lobbed him some soft balls and he almost came in his pants fawning over her while answering them. She is a cutie.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 03, 2020, 02:07:48 PM
I saw their white house correspondent during one of Pant-on-Fire's press conferences in the last few weeks. She lobbed him some soft balls and he almost came in his pants fawning over her while answering them. She is a cutie.
you put everything in such a special light...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 03, 2020, 02:27:28 PM
I recently discovered a pro administration news service ( OAN). It is a little disconcerting to hear news without the unending negative liberal/progressive spin.

The "friendly" news today included multiple suggestions that we may be nearing herd immunity with all these discovered asymptomatic cases. Of course this could just be a messaging judo flip to reframe all the "sky is falling" reported high case numbers as a positive. Hard to tell these days.   ::)

Well, reality has a well-known liberal bias...

I hope for you that you are not actually being serious with your comment about "herd immunity"...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 03, 2020, 02:51:00 PM
(https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*YWpO0mEXkAO2qidLQDADFQ.jpeg)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 03, 2020, 04:20:45 PM
Well, reality has a well-known liberal bias...
we are born liberal, and life experience turns us conservative over time. If you are not liberal when young there is something wrong with your heart, if you are not conservative when older there is something wrong with your head (brain).  8)
Quote
I hope for you that you are not actually being serious with your comment about "herd immunity"...
Hint: this is the politics thread while as I noted it seems a clever flip on the political messaging.

The report I saw talked about herd immunity as a hard percentage (65%)  but of course it depends on r0 and other contributory  factors, so not a scientific/serious report. If I was serious I would post it in the clean "covid" thread, not here with all the political  bloviating.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on July 03, 2020, 11:10:16 PM
Texas mandating face masks ?

Bolsonaro mandating face masks ?

[irony]
What's wrong with these people ? Giving in to reality  ?? Or just worried about image ?
[/irony]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 04, 2020, 01:35:56 PM
Ah, if only the senile would realise the state they're in and stop voting...  :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 04, 2020, 01:51:19 PM
Ah, if only the senile would realise the state they're in and stop voting...  :o
I suspect senile people have some clue that they are mentally challenged, most ignorant people do not (Dunning–Kruger effect).

I read that an extra 15,000 Alzheimer deaths were attributed to complications related to COVID in 3 months of this year, so you can always hope.  ::)

I don't expect that the senile are a major voting block for either party, but older Americans with life experience appreciate the value of voting and generally show up in more substantial numbers than young people.  Of course I am not smart enough to read their minds for why.

Have a happy and safe 4th.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 04, 2020, 04:11:10 PM
Texas mandating face masks ?

Bolsonaro mandating face masks ?

[irony]
What's wrong with these people ? Giving in to reality  ?? Or just worried about image ?
[/irony]
I heard a projection that everyone wearing masks could save 20,000 lives... seems like a worthwhile number but modest percentage of the world population.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 04, 2020, 04:34:54 PM
It's US population, and it's 33k by Oct 1.

https://www.businessinsider.com/wearing-face-masks-could-save-33000-us-lives-2020-6

According to an analysis by The Philadelphia Inquirer, coronavirus cases seem to be rising overall in states with relaxed face-mask rules. By contrast, The Inquirer found that new cases had fallen by 25% in total over the past two weeks in states that mandated masks in public.

But that's if 95% wear masks, and I know empirically that at least 40% of the population is too faaking stupid to do it.

Cruisin' through Walmart
Makin' a list, checkin' it twice
Gonna find out who's naughty and nice
Sars-Cov-2 is comin' to town
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 04, 2020, 08:26:38 PM
Today was a record day for new infections: over 200.000 worldwide, driven by the USA, Brazil and a new outbreak in Catalonia.

Then there's this:

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30820-5

It seems Europe is dealing with two strains and the newer one is more virulent.

I've heard before America is dealing with the same basic strain, but another new one. That would make three different strains worldwide.

It looks like there's very little reason for optimism.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 05, 2020, 09:51:46 AM


It looks like there's very little reason for optimism.
Still being alive is one pretty good reason.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Gold on July 05, 2020, 10:07:19 AM
At least the sh*thole countries are doing well with it.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 07, 2020, 06:45:37 AM
While I generally approve of the message, I am appalled by the horrendous abuse of dynamic compression:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7kZJ3Rj3NQ&feature=youtu.be


 :P
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 07, 2020, 08:07:17 AM

Doesn't make sense seeing as how the nursing facilities are maximum security if there is any metric or "lockdown" standard to go by...and my neighbor validates this at least in her scenario....

The jello?
Bananas?
The workers?  FL reportedly did a better job than NY with nursing home residents but just like tornadoes prefer hitting trailer parks, COVID loves nursing homes.

Older people have weaker immune systems and often other health concerns. Globally something like 80% of COVID deaths were seniors aged 60 or more.

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 07, 2020, 12:25:20 PM
But feel free to keep in the correct lane... Why does every single thing become politicized?
JR
I'll just move this to the "politically correct" thread.

"Why does every single thing become politicized?"
Why do you even have to ask this -it's a no-brainer, because of the no-brainer president. He is "managing" this health crisis by the pure political motivation of getting re-elected and staying in the spotlight of imaginary adulation. The science and the facts seem to be incomprehensible to him, and the more he does the worse things get for the country.

This guy, and his retarded sycophant followers, have grabbed the country's pussy and think they are going to have a huge orgasm. But it's looking like it will be erotic asphyxiation gone bad.

As the saying goes, in this pandemic we are fighting two wars - one against covid, and one against stupidity (and we are losing both).

Quote
I gather you have no thoughts about mask efficacy?
What does it even matter. Their effectiveness, helpful though somewhat limited, is only useful if everybody wears them, and that's not gonna happen.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 07, 2020, 01:06:33 PM
Something....Surely the workers are tested often?
Back months ago, nobody was getting tested.  Reportedly some nursing home workers have shifts in more than one nursing home, so can be a vector to spread infection from home to home.
Quote
But maybe passing it around unknowingly I suppose....
hopefully all are passed around innocently but it looks like some kids may be trying to get infected, or don't care about unintended spread. 
Quote
I was reading too that the visits to hospitals aren't uncommon in nursing homes. People are even sent to nursing homes to recover from procedures and not necessarily there to stay as residents..
In  NY reportedly Cuomo sent hospital covid patients to nursing homes, and mandated that they take them...  Of course he is not the only politician to ever make a mistake, and won't be the last, but it tarnishes his victory laps.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 07, 2020, 01:21:57 PM
I'll just move this to the "politically correct" thread.

"Why does every single thing become politicized?"
Why do you even have to ask this -it's a no-brainer, because of the no-brainer president. He is "managing" this health crisis by the pure political motivation of getting re-elected and staying in the spotlight of imaginary adulation. The science and the facts seem to be incomprehensible to him, and the more he does the worse things get for the country.

This guy, and his retarded sycophant followers,
who me?
Quote
have grabbed the country's pussy and think they are going to have a huge orgasm. But it's looking like it will be erotic asphyxiation gone bad.
are you high?
Quote
As the saying goes, in this pandemic we are fighting two wars - one against covid, and one against stupidity (and we are losing both).
lots of stupidity to go around..... it seems like idiocracy coming to life (defund the police, etc).
Quote

What does it even matter. Their effectiveness, helpful though somewhat limited, is only useful if everybody wears them, and that's not gonna happen.
As I said two people wearing them are more than twice as effective than only one. But covid aerosols can range as small as 60 nm and masks are tested at something like 200-300 nm. Not perfect but even wearing one mask is better than none (probably a lot more more than 2x better).

I read an article today about covid deaths in hospital workers inside an IL university hospital... besides tens of infections among employees two registered nurses died, and two lab technicians also passed. I will ASSume they had PPE, the article described them using PPE but did not go into details. From a photo of the deceased they appeared significantly overweight (a known risk factor).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 07, 2020, 03:21:22 PM
who me?
Yes, if you are one of those.
Quote
are you high?
No, why do you ask?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 07, 2020, 04:23:14 PM
Yes, if you are one of those.
I do not believe I am a retarded sycophant (while I wouldn't expect them to).

I am unclear what you think about me, but evidence suggests you do not hold us in high regard.
Quote
No, why do you ask?
Your rant sounds a little emotional... perhaps TDS...

at least you are keeping it in the right trench (or should I say left trench).  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 07, 2020, 08:26:24 PM
... it seems like idiocracy coming to life (defund the police, etc)
 

Defund the police doesn't mean no police.  It means start again with a proper code of ethics.

US police departments fail to meet even the minimum requirements set out for international rights in regard to use of deadly force.
That is a fact.
That this doesn't bother you, or that you refuse to see it, says a lot.


Edit - In addition -  That the only criticism I've ever seen you say about Trump is that he's a 'blowhard' also says a lot.


 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 07, 2020, 08:35:07 PM
I am unclear what you think about me,

Just hoping you're the devil's advocate.

Quote
but evidence suggests you do not hold us in high regard.
Sure don't.
Quote
Your rant sounds a little emotional... perhaps TDS...
Had to look that up - yup. The guy is dragging us all down.

I found this definition too  - looks like you might have it:
"a.k.a. Trump Derangement Syndrome or Trump Delusion Syndrome. The inability to find fault with Trump due to the fact that you voted for him in 2016. "   ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 07, 2020, 09:19:42 PM
7/7/2020
"So we've done a good job. I think we are going to be in two, three, four weeks, by the time we next speak, I think we are going to be in very good shape," Trump added.

бозе мой!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 07, 2020, 09:46:45 PM
Defund the police doesn't mean no police.  It means start again with a proper code of ethics.
then why the F don't they say that..?  "defund" is well understood in the english language.
Quote
US police departments fail to meet even the minimum requirements set out for international rights in regard to use of deadly force.
Huh?  I suspect international human rights never embraces deadly force. If an arrest ends up with a death, one or more of the parties involved messed up. There are lots of exampled when suspects committed suicide by cop perhaps out of ignorance.

What does international human rights say about killing police officers?
Quote
That is a fact.
?
Quote
That this doesn't bother you, or that you refuse to see it, says a lot.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
Quote

Edit - In addition -  That the only criticism I've ever seen you say about Trump is that he's a 'blowhard' also says a lot.
He is a blowhard, obviously...  just today I criticized him for poor message discipline stepping on his own message with nascar tweet storm (albeit I didn't say that here, why waste my time?)

In my judgement he isn't the laundry list of pejoratives your team make up about him, but i do not know him as well as you think you do.  Just because you don't get push back inside your echo chamber don't ASSume it's all true.   

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 08, 2020, 12:01:13 AM
tHe is a blowhard, obviously... 
JR
Yes, but the real problem is his incompetence.  His handling of COVID has been, and continues to be, a national embarrassment.  First, he ignored it.  Then, he dismissed it.  After that, he didn't prepare for it. Then he assured us all it would just go away.  Then he touted an unproven drug--over and over and over.  By this time he'd started to show a complete lack of presidential leadership.  At this point, it was all in the hands of the individual states, unless they did something that might make him look bad, and then he would tell them they couldn't do that--but he still didn't lead.  Round about here, there was a spate of self-congratulation and finally doing something.  But doing something got old really quick, so he started encouraging Republican governors to gradually start doing nothing again.  When they did that, first it was bad (even though he'd said to do it), then it was ok, then it was great, and then everybody started getting sick, so it's time to ignore it all.  In the middle, whenever he should have worn a mask he didn't, and all his  cult members started crying about the Constitution and freedom and stuff.  Trump continued to disdain masks, in spite of the science, in spite of the fact that near-universal masking would get him much closer to his goal of opening the economy.  And through it all, no noticeable compassion for the sick and dying, no concern about anything except his campaign, and corollarily the economy, because a strong economy is good for his campaign. 
In the process, he's pretty much cemented his legacy as the worst president since Buchanan. 

The blowhard stuff just isn't that big a deal once you put it in perspective.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: volker on July 08, 2020, 12:33:50 AM
(https://abload.de/img/trumpc3jp8.jpg)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 08, 2020, 02:44:33 AM
It should have been over when he mocked a disabled reporter.  Or when he offered to pay the legal bills of anyone who went ahead and hit a black man  at his rally.    Actually, even before he announced his candidacy - when he kept blowing the 'birther' dog whistle, which might just as well have been the planting of a burning cross on the White House lawn proclaiming that a black man can't be president.

Regardless, here we are.   His mettle has been tested by a crisis which can't be bullied into submission, the virus doesn't give a sh*t about Trump or his re-election.   People are dying and Trump is out proclaiming 'mission over' and defending confederate flags. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 08, 2020, 04:32:45 AM
Trump is just a symptom. The unfortunate effects of decades of economic policy shaped by the interests of greedy sociopaths and neoliberal ideologues have driven a substantial share of the population into precarious circumstances.

Globalization and technological changes have happened in all industrialized countries, but those with a proper safety net, healthcare system and fairer tax system did not experience the level of suicides, addiction and overall dispair that grip today's middle-aged working class in the USA.


http://bostonreview.net/class-inequality/joshua-cohen-angus-deaton-deaths-despair

The Covid-19 epidemic has helped to accelerate the exposure of the disconnect between the right-wing agenda and reality. At  the moment the path appears clear for a long overdue course correction.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 08, 2020, 09:27:58 AM

I found this definition too  - looks like you might have it:
"a.k.a. Trump Derangement Syndrome or Trump Delusion Syndrome. The inability to find fault with Trump due to the fact that you voted for him in 2016. "   ;D

Cute, I like that judo flip...(Delusion?). 

 I try to quickly  admit my mistakes so I can learn from them. I have reviewed my vote multiple times over these years of partisan mass media criticism.  I remain confident that Hillary Clinton would be far worse so I stand with my vote decision.  VP Joe Biden, or whomever he is the placeholder for, does not look promising, so today I would vote for him again.

 By openly admitting my choice here I have become a flame magnet for a never ending parade of people casting shade on my judgement and morality. I was already somewhat used to that after years of similar attacks for my criticism of President Obama's policies. Back then I was called a racist, now apparently I'm a white supremacist.  ::) ( IMO I am neither, FWIW I was criticized for calling the ACA "Obamacare" because that was considered disrespectful to the office. How much respect does President Trump get around here?).

 Be well.. wash your hands...

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 08, 2020, 10:18:44 AM
  How much respect does President Trump get around here?).
 

As much as he deserves.   
 
Some of those sh*t hole countries full of murderers and rapists are doing OK though.

In other news, Mexico is closing the US border and US travellers are persona non grata in Europe until further notice.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 08, 2020, 10:24:56 AM

 I try to quickly  admit my mistakes so I can learn from them. I have reviewed my vote multiple times over these years of partisan mass media criticism.  I remain confident that Hillary Clinton would be far worse so I stand with my vote decision. 
JR

In light of Trump's handling of COVID, do you really believe Hillary would have done worse?  Seriously?  Do you really think she would have been as incautious, as dismissive of the threat as well as the advice of actual medical experts?  Do you seriously think she would have prepared for the threat as poorly as Trump did?   

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 08, 2020, 11:44:14 AM
then why the F don't they say that..?  "defund" is well understood in the english language. Huh? 

Apparently, most voters understand it correctly: "Only 18% believe that people who use this phrase actually want to get rid of police departments."

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_070820/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 08, 2020, 12:09:43 PM
VP Joe Biden, or whomever he is the placeholder for, does not look promising, so today I would vote for him again.
JR
I prefer the puppetmasters (Bloomberg, Obama, various plutocrats?) that Biden is the placeholder for, rather than those (Putin, Xi Jinping, Kim Jong-un, various plutocrats?) whose bidding POTUS Pants-on-Fire apparently does.

Of course, it's all wild speculation, so I'd rather just have a human being rather than an out of control narcissist in the office, but that's just me.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 08, 2020, 12:13:34 PM
...my criticism of President Obama's policies. Back then I was called a racist, now apparently I'm a white supremacist.   

You may or may not be racist or a white supremacist. I don't know.   
But to not call out Trump's blatant nods and winks to those "good ol'boys" on that side of the aisle leaves you standing alongside some  very unsavoury characters as co-allies.
But maybe you're really just keeping two sets of books, I dunno?  I'm only going on what you've said and not said.




 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 08, 2020, 12:15:59 PM
Of course, it's all wild speculation, so I'd rather just have a human being rather than an out of control narcissist in the office, but that's just me.

Well, he is a human being. Probably not neurotypical. But we shouldn't sink to the level of dehumanization.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 08, 2020, 12:23:48 PM
Well, he is a human being.
You're right - he has at least one human characteristic - the asshole.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 08, 2020, 02:23:13 PM
In light of Trump's handling of COVID, do you really believe Hillary would have done worse?  Seriously?  Do you really think she would have been as incautious, as dismissive of the threat as well as the advice of actual medical experts?  Do you seriously think she would have prepared for the threat as poorly as Trump did?   

Quote from: www
In January, President Trump banned all foreign nationals who were in China during the time of the coronavirus outbreak from entering the United States. Many pundits and health experts have since credited this decision with helping to slow the coronavirus pandemic on American shores.

However, at the time former vice president Joe Biden railed against the decision.

The democrats were calling President Trump xenophobic until they later realized he was correct and flip flopped changing the attack to saying he didn't react soon enough. You can't have it both ways, but keep trying.  ::)

JR

PS: I couldn't find a specific Hillary quote from back then with a quick search. A few months later at a speech in India Hillary called President Trump an "anti-asian racist". I suspect she was singing from the democratic greek chorus back in Jan too.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 08, 2020, 02:58:10 PM
The democrats were calling President Trump xenophobic until they later realized he was correct
Just as a point of reference, Canada did not institute a Chinese travel ban & the lack of it made negligible difference vs. US.   You can criticize the Dem response (although Trump has certainly played up the anti-Asian angle, even to this day), but the ban itself was not a terribly effective move (didn't health experts say that at the time?) and was indeed way too late to have much effect regardless--although that was not necessarily all that obvious at the time.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 08, 2020, 03:19:53 PM
Even the UK right wing paper 'The Daily Mail' agreed that Trump's recent use of the term 'Kung Flu'  was racist.
 But a white guy living in Hickory MS  probably thinks it isn't so who knows? 

 In other news:  3 Million official cases of Covid in the US as of today.   Hillary *still* isn't president and therefore bears no responsibility  at all for the lack of leadership and response to this. 


 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 08, 2020, 04:04:06 PM
Apparently, most voters understand it correctly: "Only 18% believe that people who use this phrase actually want to get rid of police departments."

https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/reports/monmouthpoll_us_070820/
Hopefully 100% of the people understand we can't do away with the police...

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Tubetec on July 08, 2020, 08:06:22 PM
Policing reform has been a buzzword here in Ireland  for a few years now , but things dont change fast.
The array of technology law enforcement find at their finger tips nowadays is leading to a situation of public mistrust .
Big data and governments are aggregating vast amounts of data on the population ,which can end up used to 'fit people up' for crimes that may not have even been committed yet .
Yesterday they launched a Covid tracing app here in Ireland , of course government swear blind peoples privacy is being respected ,but its now emerged that GPS data is being used in the joint venture between Apple/Google in their covid tracing app. So far in the first 36 hours since its launch over 1 million sheeple have downloaded it to their phone .Can we really expect Apple/Google not to be fingering the pie behind our backs  , the reality is we dont have a clue whats going on under the surface of this app and the code isnt available for scrutiny by privacy watchdog organisations.
We'll have to wait until the law of unintended consequences rares its ugly head to find out whats been lost in terms of privacy , problem is once that genie is out of the bottle it wont go back in ever.   

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 09, 2020, 05:14:46 AM
Hopefully 100% of the people understand we can't do away with the police...

JR

100% is always unrealistic. These days, you cannot get 100% of people to agree that the earth is spherical, after all.

It's possible to get away with a lot less police, especially a lot less hostile, armed or even militarized, if the homework is done in other departments.

Police works best if and when they are actually part of a community and can be relied upon to help, instead of being in an adversarial relationship with much of the populace.

I think I recommended watching the show "The Wire" here before. The entire current disfunction is layed out perfectly, as well as a lot of solutions. On top of that it is drama in perfection.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 09, 2020, 08:28:57 AM
Thinking that the entire United States is comparable to a tv drama based on some inner city issues, isn't much different than thinking the world is flat imo...

Police disfunction.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 09:22:56 AM
Police disfunction.
The wire (fiction) was loosely based on Baltimore that apparently is pretty bad. A common trend is that large cities that have been democratic run for decades have lots of disfunction. It is remarkable how quickly the mayor of NYC is degrading public safety there (he tried to blame it on Covid, while pulling $1B funding from the police, that he has never supported). The anarchists can't believe their good fortune with police capabilities being degraded across many large cities. I do not expect a summer of love like that Seattle mayor predicted, more like a summer of crime and violence.

Try not to buy social justice themes hook, line, and sinker... the "racial grievance" industry is making hay from these high profile iconic incidents.

Sadly this is yet another issue being politicized beyond recognition by political actors.

JR

PS: Talking about what words mean, apparently "black lives matter" doesn't encompass black on black killings (including dead children).
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 09, 2020, 10:39:47 AM
A common trend is that large cities that have been democratic run for decades have lots of disfunction.

Arguments in these cases tend to confuse correllation with causation.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 09, 2020, 10:52:32 AM
PS: Talking about what words mean, apparently "black lives matter" doesn't encompass black on black killings (including dead children).
BLM has to do with racist inspired (whether overt or subconscious) subjugation or killing of blacks by whites. There are lots of white on white killings (and of children) of the same character, whether robbery/drug/gang/anger/crazy inspired just like black on black. Conflating the etiologies is just poor thinking.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 09, 2020, 11:04:56 AM
Nothing very clear yet - I guess we'll see how this plays out in the next weeks:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tulsa-coronavirus-spike-after-trump-rally-likely-linked-official/ar-BB16vFZj?ocid=bingcovid


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 11:30:55 AM
Arguments in these cases tend to confuse correllation with causation.
So it's just a coincidence in your judgement?

There does seem to be correlation between democratic led cities and inner city poverty, then poverty with crime. Connect the dots.

I don't want to get down in the partisan mud over this but President Trump is not responsible for gun violence in NYC, or Chicago, or.....  Likewise the local city and state leadership have plenty of culpability.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 11:38:56 AM
Nothing very clear yet - I guess we'll see how this plays out in the next weeks:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/tulsa-coronavirus-spike-after-trump-rally-likely-linked-official/ar-BB16vFZj?ocid=bingcovid
IIRC cases were rising in Tulsa before his convention but the wisdom of having an indoor rally with thousands yelling and screaming is not very wise. I would invite close inspection of Tulsa COVID cases along with inspection of the several massive riots, rallies, and Floyd ceremonies held in multiple cities where social distancing was not practiced. Of course these finding need to be normalized for the increased testing perhaps charted on the same graphs.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 09, 2020, 11:48:10 AM
So it's just a coincidence in your judgement?

JR

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  JUST LIKE GLOBAL WARMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 12:04:35 PM
BLM has to do with racist inspired (whether overt or subconscious) subjugation or killing of blacks by whites. There are lots of white on white killings (and of children) of the same character, whether robbery/drug/gang/anger/crazy inspired just like black on black. Conflating the etiologies is just poor thinking.
I have suggested right here for years that words matter and can have consequences.

We all see the high profile events that go viral in the current hypersensitive cultural climate. These isolated events are inexcusable and reforms have already been started. The police chief in Minneapolis was a reformer, but he got flushed by the social justice crowd calling for scalps. (ironically the town council there has hired personal security after voting to defund police). Millions of views on social media do not equate to systemic racism, but help sell the big lie  IMO.

 Speaking of MN rep Omar (D-MN)
Quote from: Omar
During a press conference on Tuesday, Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-M.N.) said that the myriad “systems of oppression” that apparently exist in the United States, including “in the air we breathe,” must be torn down.

“But we can’t stop at criminal justice reform or policing reform for that matter,” Omar said. “We are not merely fighting to tear down the systems of oppression in the criminal justice system.”

“We are fighting to tear down systems of oppression that exist in housing, in education, in healthcare, in employment and in the air we breathe,” she said.

Omar then said white families in America have 42 times more wealth than black families and are two times more likely to own a home. She also discussed living situations before claiming, “We know environmental racism is real.”

To end her speech, Omar, a radical Democrat who supports many socialist policies, began talking about dismantling the political and economic systems “of oppression” in the United States.
“As long as our economy and political systems prioritize profit without considering who is profiting, who is being shut out, we will perpetuate inequality,” Omar said.

“So we cannot stop at the criminal justice system,” she continued, “We must begin the work of dismantling the whole system of oppression wherever we find it.”

In 2018, Omar told The Intercept,  “the ideals of socialism is one that is deep in my values and so I think as Democrats, we all share serious socialism ideals about providing for people and caring about our communities and making sure that government is held accountable in providing for its citizens.”
Perhaps she didn't mean what she said?

JR

PS; VP Joe Biden has already promised to select a black female VP pandering to two interest groups in one fell swoop. Rep Omar is old enough to be VP  (and gains one more minority group).  ::) AOC has started moderating her screed, she will be old enough to run in 2024, but I can read her mind either, we only have her words to go on.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 09, 2020, 12:05:35 PM
President Trump is not responsible for gun violence in NYC, or Chicago, or..... 

It seems to me we finally have figured out one thing Trump excels at: avoiding responsibility...

I mean, he doesn't read memos. Doesn't listen to advice. Just to be able to state later he didn't know about it.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 12:18:39 PM
It seems to me we finally have figured out one thing Trump excels at: avoiding responsibility...
I will give you the benefit of the doubt for not understanding the federal government. Street crime in the cities is the responsibility of local mayors and then state governors.  President Trump has recently warned state governors that if they don't clean up their cities he will... Legally he can't do it directly but formally offered federal help to cities experiencing increasing violence.
Quote
I mean, he doesn't read memos. Doesn't listen to advice. Just to be able to state later he didn't know about it.
::)  Regrettably after almost 4 years in office he is slowing becoming more like a politician, but don't believe everything the opposition news media claims. 

JR

PS: Perhaps ironic ex-President Obama was notorious for claiming to only learn about scandals in his administration after reading about them in the news. Of course he still claims there were no scandals in his administrations.  ::)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 09, 2020, 01:55:56 PM
So it's just a coincidence in your judgement?

There does seem to be correlation between democratic led cities and inner city poverty, then poverty with crime. Connect the dots.


Affluent white people fleeing the inner cities decades ago and leaving mostly poorer black people, who tend to vote Democratic, might have more to do with it...

Systemic inequality makes the problem worse, for example taxpayer money is distributed very unequally in the US (like poorer schools more in need of funds tend to get less than richer schools that don't need it as much)...

Best to try not to jump at the simple explanations that fit ones existing narrative...

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 09, 2020, 02:07:23 PM
Belief is a strange thing...

I've talked to fanatic muslims. I've talked to fanatic christians. Even if you try very hard to burst their reality bubble, you won't succeed as it only exists in their mind and is extremely adaptable.

The same seems to go for Trumpistas. Reality doesn't matter. It's the other side's fault anyways. Every time. Facts don't matter. It's all propaganda, you know. Fake.

It seems living in a reality bubble promotes tryptophan secretion. Like being high all the time. Nothing affects you, as it's all fake anyways. That is, when it suits you.

Makes for a pretty easy and simple life...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 02:18:17 PM
Belief is a strange thing...

I've talked to fanatic muslims. I've talked to fanatic christians. Even if you try very hard to burst their reality bubble, you won't succeed as it only exists in their mind and is extremely adaptable.

The same seems to go for Trumpistas. Reality doesn't matter. It's the other side's fault anyways. Every time. Facts don't matter. It's all propaganda, you know. Fake.

It seems living in a reality bubble promotes tryptophan secretion. Like being high all the time. Nothing affects you, as it's all fake anyways. That is, when it suits you.

Makes for a pretty easy and simple life...
The easy/simple life would be for me to say you guys are right.  ::)

When in doubt do what's right, even if it isn't simple and easy.  8)

JR

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 09, 2020, 03:19:27 PM
When in doubt do what's right,
But the bubble people are never in doubt.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 09, 2020, 03:21:30 PM
But the bubble people are never in doubt.
you must be right... ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 09, 2020, 03:56:31 PM
you must be right... ::)

JR
When I'm looking at hyperbolic lies and undocumented imaginary thinking..
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 09, 2020, 04:05:14 PM
The easy/simple life would be for me to say you guys are right.  ::)

JR

Then you might lose your bubble high.  Wouldn't want that.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 09, 2020, 06:16:00 PM
When in doubt do what's right, even if it isn't simple and easy. 

When in doubt, do what's right, even if left is right.  ::)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 04:54:02 AM
 
I have suggested right here for years that words matter and can have consequences. 

Except when Trump says them.
 
These isolated events are inexcusable and reforms have already been started.

George Floyd wasn't an isolated incident, it was a straw on the Camel's back.   
 
  ...Millions of views on social media do not equate to systemic racism, but help sell the big lie  IMO.

Blah, blah, same old denial sh*t as usual.   


(D-MN)Perhaps she didn't mean what she said?

 I'm sure she did.   And?
 

PS; VP Joe Biden has already promised to select a black female VP pandering to two interest groups in one fell swoop.

What?  A woman?  And a black one to boot?
How outrageous.


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 10, 2020, 05:04:38 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D00M2KZH1J0
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 05:47:10 AM
Police works best if and when they are actually part of a community and can be relied upon to help, instead of being in an adversarial relationship with much of the populace.

Policing in the U.S. is like the fire brigade, they are responders.   Being decentralised, it's also very fragmented.   
 I'm trying to imagine what it'd be like if the local bobbies in the UK turned up at football matches or at a demonstration to do the crowd control job equipped with something like this:   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 06:07:05 AM
More like an occupying force in a war zone than community policing:

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 06:20:33 AM
Back to covid - another thing I'm concerned about for our American friends in the issue of those who may incur large medical bills due hospitalisation and the long term ongoing side effects of having had the virus.  This could send many folks spiralling downwards in debt.   Added to the potential loss of employment due to the economy, I'm really quite worried for them.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 10, 2020, 07:07:47 AM
More like an occupying force in a war zone than community policing:

Yes, and many conservatives in the US are now so far removed from the roots of their democracy that they misunderstand militarized police presence as part of their 'freedom'.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 10, 2020, 08:25:17 AM
only when there are 3 :D

You mean there's something else besides right and ultra-right?

I mean, capitalists in one corner, conservatives in the other. Something I've missed?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 10, 2020, 10:42:17 AM
Was a joke attempt....

Takes 3 rights to make a left..... 3 lefts to make a right....

Ah... That expression wasn't really new, but I didn't make the connection. Sorry, I'm dense at times.  :P
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 10, 2020, 10:49:05 AM
You mean there's something else besides right and ultra-right?

I mean, capitalists in one corner, conservatives in the other. Something I've missed?
VP Biden just called for the end of "shareholder capitalism" but maybe those words mean something other than they literally say.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: cyrano on July 10, 2020, 11:21:20 AM
And you don't think Biden's right?

Before the spinning. Just what the words say?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 10, 2020, 11:50:24 AM
VP Biden just called for the end of "shareholder capitalism" but maybe those words mean something other than they literally say.

JR

(Serious question, and not snark):  What do you think they say?  I have my own ideas, and they have nothing to do with the end of shareholders or the end of capitalism. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 10, 2020, 12:36:07 PM
And you don't think Biden's right?
no I think he is pandering to his far left...
Quote
Before the spinning. Just what the words say?
Literally sounds like a variant (or misstated) "Stakeholder capitalism" which these days is part of the vilify capitalism movement.  I find it remarkable that anybody thinks capitalism needs defense. Capitalism and free trade have rescued millions of people  from poverty worldwide.

Sadly to make sense in the current political context this needs to be framed as wealthy vs poor or worse (racial).

JR

PS: Of course Beta O'Rourke never fails to deliver with his recent accusation that a "GOP death cult mentality" is responsible for the rise in violence. He actually said that I couldn't make up something that silly. Since he is Joe Biden's point man for gun control it may suggest a future democratic administration's strategy. (kidding... I hope)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 10, 2020, 12:42:40 PM
(Serious question, and not snark):  What do you think they say?  I have my own ideas, and they have nothing to do with the end of shareholders or the end of capitalism.
I suspect he meant to say "stakeholder capitalism" but flubbed it. The left is more aggressively attacking capitalism (wealth) this election cycle.

All thinking people are (or should be) opposed to "crony capitalism" and other excesses of un-checked capitalism, but capitalism and free markets are what created all the wealth we enjoy today.

JR

PS: Don't expect me to explain former VP Joe Biden too... this is exhausting enough already.  :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 10, 2020, 01:09:10 PM
Literally sounds like a variant (or misstated) "Stakeholder capitalism"

JR


Not misstated.  I did a cursory search & shareholder capitalism seems to be juxtaposed with stakeholder capitalism.  Considering that half of all stocks are owned by the wealthiest 1%, and 84% owned by the wealthiest 10%, moving away from a system that puts the interest of shareholders above all seems like a more equitable & likely overall saner and healthier approach. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 10, 2020, 02:30:26 PM
I try to quickly  admit my mistakes so I can learn from them. I have reviewed my vote multiple times over these years of partisan mass media criticism.  I remain confident that Hillary Clinton would be far worse so I stand with my vote decision.  VP Joe Biden, or whomever he is the placeholder for, does not look promising, so today I would vote for him again.
You have a good point.  Biden would be a disaster:  we should place our collective faith in the current bastion of intellect and integrity:

Quote from: @realDonaldTrump
For the 1/100th time, the reason we show so many Cases, compared to other countries that haven’t done nearly as well as we have, is that our TESTING is much bigger and better. We have tested 40,000,000 people. If we did 20,000,000 instead, Cases would be half, etc. NOT REPORTED!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 02:31:19 PM
I'm watching BBC News and seeing another day of record high positive cases in the U.S, the death toll on the rise again, and Florida is the no. 1 hotspot in the *world*
If I look  online, the wearing of masks still seems to be a partisan issue.   This is madness!
What is the administration doing?  People need  guidance and help here.     



 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 10, 2020, 02:35:40 PM
Not misstated.  I did a cursory search & shareholder capitalism seems to be juxtaposed with stakeholder capitalism.  Considering that half of all stocks are owned by the wealthiest 1%, and 84% owned by the wealthiest 10%, moving away from a system that puts the interest of shareholders above all seems like a more equitable & likely overall saner and healthier approach.
That sounds like the typical (marxist) class warfare screed.... Is that what he meant?

Quote from: WWW
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/sep/18/ro-khanna/what-percentage-americans-own-stocks/ (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/sep/18/ro-khanna/what-percentage-americans-own-stocks/)
A once-every-three-years study by the Federal Reserve Board found that in 2016, 51.9 percent of families owned stocks, either directly or as part of a fund.

And in 2017, Gallup found that 54 percent of respondents owned stocks either directly or as part of a fund.

Those findings show a majority owning stocks — a modest majority, but still a majority.


America provides economic mobility for all, this does not mean that everybody will have the exact same success or wealth. There will be a statistical distribution curve between the very successful and those who aren't.
======
Everyone having the same result is communism (or its promise). In practice the equal success promised by communism is often effected by sinking to the lowest common denominator (do I need to provide examples?).

If you want to increase entitlement spending, you need to support the businesses creating wealth because the government does not have its own money. It gets it from taxpayers.

Killing the golden goose will not end well.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 10, 2020, 02:55:38 PM
From the other thread:
Quote
(Note: President Trump is not a scientist or medical expert.)
Someone should tell him... ;)
Mose did:

You sittin' here and yakkin' right in my face
You comin' on exactly like you own the place
You know if silence was golden
You couldn't raise a dime
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime

You quotin' figures and droppin' names
You tellin' stories about the dames
You're overlaughin' when things ain't funny
You tryin' to sound like the big money
You know if talk was criminal
You'd lead a life of crime
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime

You know that life is short
Talk is cheap
Don't be makin' promises that you can't keep
You don't like this little song I'm singin'
Just grin and bear it
All I can say is if the shoe fits wear it
If you must keep talkin'
Please try to make it rhyme
Because your mind is on vacation and your mouth is workin' overtime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOWrsXDuwDE
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 10, 2020, 04:20:29 PM
That sounds like the typical (marxist) class warfare screed.... Is that what he meant?
Clearly that was said in jest.  What else could it be?  In any case, it's just the opening to a negotiation, right?

America provides economic mobility for all, this does not mean that everybody will have the exact same success or wealth. There will be a statistical distribution curve between the very successful and those who aren't.
You are correct, it is indeed a distribution:

(https://equitablegrowth.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/fig1.png)

Looks almost like an impulse response, no?

Unless you are arguing that a 20 ton boulder and a 200hp motorcycle are both equally capable of being moved from point A to point B, and sidestepping the issue of how that plays out in actual practice?  Anyone is capable of walking out of a casino a millionaire, however the vast majority don't?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 10, 2020, 04:34:33 PM
[...] but capitalism and free markets are what created all the wealth we enjoy today.

What about science? The rule of law? Democracy? Separation of powers? Basic/human rights like freedom of expression? A social safety net and health insurance? Public spending on innovation and R&D?

To attribute the wealth we (in the post-colonial industrialized western democracies) enjoy today only (or mostly) to capitalism and free markets is a common mistake made by people following the neoliberal ideology (now on the way out).

To reiterate just one of the points from my list above, a very good case can be made that most of the wealth created in the postwar era is thanks to public and state funded investments in innovation and technology. I can recommend this book:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Entrepreneurial_State
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 04:47:57 PM
I don't expect a  response from John Roberts but I'll put this here for the record:


Everyone having the same result is communism (or its promise)

 
The US govt. started  scaremongering with that sort of stuff in the 1950's.
It makes little old ladies clutch their pearls in horror.

But it doesn't have to be so black and white.

And it's really laughable to the folks on here living within a less selfish, more socialised system.



 
 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 04:52:55 PM
A social safety net and health insurance? P

For folks like John with libertarian leanings, the American system actually isn't selfish enough.  Believe it or not.  So social safety net?  Forget it.






 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 10, 2020, 05:26:25 PM
That sounds like the typical (marxist) class warfare screed.... Is that what he meant?


JR

Sounds like typical right wing lunatic BS--is that what you meant?  If you want conversations to stay civil, say something meaningful instead of spouting incendiary garbage.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 10, 2020, 06:46:02 PM
wow and we still have months to go...

Be safe everybody

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 10, 2020, 09:02:59 PM
Well, it looks like the pandemic is out of control (just my uninformed opinion.) The stupidity and lack of self control of people (all the way to the top), and politicizing the mask/mitigation measures seem to be the main factors. Hop on for the ride, the sh!tstorm special is leaving the station.
And now the wheels are coming off.

And the emperor has no clothes.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on July 10, 2020, 09:21:34 PM
I only know of a few politicians and business people who are actually capitalist (based on their actions).  Both major parties have facilitated a huge upward transfer of wealth and generated ongoing financial crises through a system that is most definitely not capitalism.  Actual capitalism would have avoided the issues,  let's not confuse it with the corrupt system that's currently in place.

Edit: Another thing is that capitalism and a strong social safety net are not at odds with each other.  On the contrary,  as it allows for more efficient price discovery.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 10, 2020, 10:59:45 PM

Edit: Another thing is that capitalism and a strong social safety net are not at odds with each other.  On the contrary,  as it allows for more efficient price discovery.

Exactly.     
But the suggestion of socialised safety nets is tantamount to lobbying for "Marxism" and "Communism"  to some.





 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 11, 2020, 07:42:43 AM
wow and we still have months to go...

Be safe everybody

JR

How convenient.  ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 11, 2020, 09:18:13 AM
I guess this explains the some of the hammer/sickle and raised fists graphiti on the monuments.

They have always been with us, but some candidates have no sense of history.
Quote

In  Health related....
It looks like the percentage of expected deaths from all causes has dropped from 100%  before June , 50% at the end of June and to  23% now..
I attached a graph of daily new infections vs new deaths.  This was on the front page of the WSJ Thursday and showed them in perspective. BUT yesterday when I tried to find it on the WWW to post in the normal COVID thread, it was gone.

 I am still not a mind reader but my speculation was that it wasn't scary enough presented that way, and didn't fit the doom and gloom messaging.  Since I still had my paper copy I scanned this for your enjoyment.

 JR

PS: I am a big boy so can take the verbal abuse, it belittles you guys more than me.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 11, 2020, 10:50:21 AM
That is great that the mortality rate seems to be going down, probably due to increasing medical knowledge of treatment modalities, increased treatment options particularly for serious disease, and a much younger cohort of patients who tolerate illness better. But old doomandgloom me expects the mortality to rise some again, as it lags the case count by weeks to a month.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 11, 2020, 11:10:02 AM
That is great that the mortality rate seems to be going down.
It's also not the only issue at hand.  As doctors and scientists learn more about COVID, they're seeing more and more evidence of long term health issues (lung and kidney isssues, cognitive impairment, etc. ), and that becomes even more of a concern as cases among young people rise.  Yes, lower death rates are great (although likely to rise somewhat in the coming weeks), but even if the pandemic were handled perfectly from this point, the after-effects of COVID will reverberate for decades.

But the president said yesterday that it's all under control, so I'm not worried about a thing.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: fazer on July 11, 2020, 02:57:45 PM
More like an occupying force in a war zone than community policing:


Didn’t this start after 9/11.   Trying to fight Terrorist with military response?   Also the bank robbers in LA with body armor that the police could not bring down.   If they have it they use it.    Not always wisely.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 11, 2020, 03:37:36 PM

Didn’t this start after 9/11.   Trying to fight Terrorist with military response?   Also the bank robbers in LA with body armor that the police could not bring down.   If they have it they use it.    Not always wisely.

Militarisation of the US police certainly rose after 9/11 but it didn't start then.  I believe it started with "The War On Drugs'.  It's certainly not something I would lay blame just with Republicans and George W Bush.  Obama was as guilty although did eventually sign an executive order to limit the amount of equipment flowing from the Pentagon to the police.   However, Trump overturned this executive order.





Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 11, 2020, 03:57:29 PM
Militarisation of the US police certainly rose after 9/11 but it didn't start then.  I believe it started with "The War On Drugs'. 
Bill Clinton started a program that released military surplus to police forces for free--all the police departments had to do was pay for the item to get to them from wherever it was.   This might not have been the beginning of the militarization, but at the least it was a very significant turning point.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 11, 2020, 04:34:04 PM
It's also not the only issue at hand.  As doctors and scientists learn more about COVID, they're seeing more and more evidence of long term health issues (lung and kidney isssues, cognitive impairment, etc. ), and that becomes even more of a concern as cases among young people rise.  Yes, lower death rates are great (although likely to rise somewhat in the coming weeks), but even if the pandemic were handled perfectly from this point, the after-effects of COVID will reverberate for decades.
Yes, the disease will medically ruin a lot more lives than just the dead and their loved ones. And the social and economic impacts of this will change the future.
Quote
But the president said yesterday that it's all under control, so I'm not worried about a thing.
Whew, that's a relief!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 11, 2020, 04:38:49 PM
Bill Clinton started a program that released military surplus to police forces for free--all the police departments had to do was pay for the item to get to them from wherever it was.   This might not have been the beginning of the militarization, but at the least it was a very significant turning point.

OK there you go, thanks.   I wasn't exactly sure of which administration started this particular program. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 11, 2020, 04:46:46 PM
Yes, the disease will medically ruin a lot more lives than just the dead and their loved ones. And the social and economic impacts of this will change the future.Whew, that's a relief!

This is something I'm concerned about.    There are already cases of HMO's not paying for after care services required for covid survivors.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 11, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
Can we see some "for instances"?

Wealth distribution/inequality
Blacks vs white pay...etc?


Scott,
 in a list of the wealthiest countries, the US generally ranks the lowest in terms of health care, minimum wage, minimum paid annual leave, maternity leave, unemployment/disability  benefit, distribution of wealth...

I could post graphs and statistics if it helps, but the info is out there to find easily enough. 
All I'm saying is that a social safety net does *not* equal communism. Any of the members on here living in Europe could attest to that.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 11, 2020, 05:53:35 PM
Asking anyone in the UK to get rid of our NHS would likely get the same response as asking to abolish votes for women. 
The same in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden...



Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 11, 2020, 06:20:39 PM
The US is magnitudes  the size and population of the UK
UK pop = about 67 million
An order of magnitude (X10) greater?  670 million.
US population:  about 330 million

So it's fair to say the US is NOT magnitudes greater in population than the UK. 

As far size in square miles?  That's another matter. 

Regardless, the greater population of the US is just an excuse (one of many weak ones) that anti-universal healthcare types use to attack M4A and other similar programs.  That the ACA has performed as well as it has in spite of all the money and effort put into attacking it is a pretty good indication that a single-payer system or something similar would succeed here. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 11, 2020, 06:55:58 PM
No system can't be improved in some way, but I don't know anyone here in the UK who's had a problem getting the care they need.
 Personally speaking, having spent 2 decades in the US I would *never* want to go back into  that system.    Not being able to afford insurance can be a nightmare. 


 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 11, 2020, 09:22:25 PM
Apparently the competition is intense for this year's Darwin Awards:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/patient-dies-after-going-to-covid-party-thought-it-was-a-hoax-official/ar-BB16CCy8?ocid=bingcovid
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 12, 2020, 10:10:23 AM
Apparently the competition is intense for this year's Darwin Awards:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/patient-dies-after-going-to-covid-party-thought-it-was-a-hoax-official/ar-BB16CCy8?ocid=bingcovid

Yup, wear a mask, wash your hands, and don't try to catch COVID..... :o

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 12, 2020, 11:21:29 AM
Apparently the competition is intense for this year's Darwin Awards:

It's still really sad though.  Lots of other young people who believed the same are now in quite serious condition according to the head nurse from that hospital. 
I don't agree with, but can understand younger folks having a more cavalier attitude towards social distancing - I too felt more invincible 30 years ago -   but where does the mindset that this is a hoax come from?   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 12, 2020, 12:17:06 PM
I do wish it were some universal thing on many issues... Our healthcare stuff is weird....

Hey Scott, I noticed you'd edited out the bit of reply here regarding your own current situation with health insurance costs.
I just wanted to say that I get it man, I've been there myself.   I  feel really badly for you and anyone else in that situation - especially those with a loved one and a young family to worry about too.  I wish it wasn't like this.
Stay well man.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 12, 2020, 02:37:17 PM
Yeah, it's not really me I care about bringing attention to.. 


 I guessed that was the case but wanted  to acknowledge it before it went off the radar.

 I don't live in the US anymore but there's still a massive piece of my heart still over there - my son and step kids are US citizens.  I suppose I feel I have a big stake in wanting the best for everyone in the US at the moment.

But yep, it'll get worked out :)

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 12, 2020, 02:43:38 PM
but where does the mindset that this is a hoax come from?
"It's all under control."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrEa6JnoL1c
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 12, 2020, 03:15:50 PM
I do wish it were some universal thing on many issues... Our healthcare stuff is weird....
Here is the root of the problem - Senate finance committee hearings on the proposed ACA in 2009 (lobbyist money, money, money as usual). So we got the piece of sh*t known as Obamacare, no public option (they refused to even discuss it and arrested those who wanted to), better than what we had but still too "socialist" for the oligarchs who are still trying to get rid of it:

It has finally happened right here in the United States. Citizens who believe healthcare is a human right have been arrested and are being processed like criminals through the Southeast District of Columbia police station. Their crime? Asking for single payer healthcare reform – publicly funded, privately delivered healthcare – to be discussed during the Congressional hearings on reform.

Doctors and other single payer activists were handcuffed and went to jail today speaking up for single payer to be at the table in the Senate finance Committee’s roundtable discussion on healthcare access and coverage. In stark contrast, Karen Ignagni, head of the industry lobby group American Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) was escorted into the room like royalty by staff members of the Senate committee. Clearly, the position of the United States Senate is not with the majority of Americans who support a national, public insurance system....
Simply asking to have single payer be included and fully vetted is a crime. Profiting as the for-profit health insurance companies do at the expense of 22,000 American lives every year, however, gets you a run of the table in this healthcare reform discussion. Just ask the Senators who are drafting what this nation’s health system will look like – and watch their behavior today – if you want evidence of how your voice will be heard in the process.

https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/doctors-single-payer-activists-arrested-make-history-at-senate-finance-roundtable/

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 12, 2020, 06:06:36 PM
"It's all under control."  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrEa6JnoL1c

Yeah I understand that stuff regarding the White House message being "it's all under control"   costing lives by underplaying the severity and risks.  But the mindset of the whole thing being a hoax -  is it a partisan thing?  A flat-earther, tin-foil hat conspiracy type thing?   A common or garden rejection of science in favour of stupidity thing? 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 12, 2020, 06:43:11 PM
Yeah I understand that stuff regarding the White House message being "it's all under control"   costing lives by underplaying the severity and risks.  But the mindset of the whole thing being a hoax -  is it a partisan thing?  A flat-earther, tin-foil hat conspiracy type thing?   A common or garden rejection of science in favour of stupidity thing?
My guess is that it's multifactorial, like the things you mention.

Here's a study that posits, in (my) simple terms, that it's the belief of people who don't know how to think.

Abstract

The coronavirus (COVID-19) outbreak was labeled a global pandemic by the WHO in March of 2020. During that same month, the number of confirmed cases and the death rate grew exponentially in the United States, creating a serious public-health emergency. Unfortunately, many Americans dismissed the pandemic as a hoax and failed to properly engage in helpful behaviors like social-distancing and increased hand-washing. Here, we examine a disposition—willingness to engage in analytic-thinking—that might predict beliefs that the pandemic is a hoax and failures to change behavior in positive ways. Our results indicate that individuals less willing to engage effortful, deliberative, and reflective cognitive processes were more likely to believe the pandemic was a hoax, and less likely to have recently engaged in social-distancing and hand-washing. We discuss the implications of these results for understanding and addressing the COVID-19 pandemic.


https://psyarxiv.com/m3vth/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 12, 2020, 07:49:56 PM

Here's a study that posits, in (my) simple terms, that it's the belief of people who don't know how to think.
 

Thanks.  That study went above and beyond in trying to understand and explain the causation.   I learned quite a lot even on a first read through and it deserves a 2nd and 3rd reading for sure.   Very much appreciated.   
 

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 13, 2020, 05:20:27 AM
Modern technology, the speed, access, sensory overflow and the resulting compensatory mechanisms, makes it much harder to follow the slower path of analytical thinking. Especially if you lack formal training, live in precarious circumstances and/or are surrounded by like-minded individuals (locally or virtually). Some adjustments are probably necessary...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 13, 2020, 07:57:59 AM
Maybe there's a pill for this

Not going to be such an easy fix.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 13, 2020, 09:30:02 AM
Not going to be such an easy fix.
Natural selection may help a little.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 13, 2020, 09:33:38 AM
It appears the headline writers are still going for maximum scare.

Florida reported a record 15,299 new cases of COVID19 in 24 hours... hidden down in the middle of the article was only 45 new deaths. That death number seems lower than recent trend.

Of course, everybody repeats the headline test numbers as justification for lockdowns.

Coincidentally NY reported first day with zero COVID deaths to far less fanfare.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 13, 2020, 10:19:41 AM
It appears the headline writers are still going for maximum scare.

Florida reported a record 15,299 new cases of COVID19 in 24 hours... hidden down in the middle of the article was only 45 new deaths. That death number seems lower than recent trend.

Of course, everybody repeats the headline test numbers as justification for lockdowns.

Coincidentally NY reported first day with zero COVID deaths to far less fanfare.

JR

Your argument is comparable to the guy bringing a snowball inside, touting the cold winter and on those grounds dismissing the reality of climate change.

A rise in deaths is likely to occur as a consequence of a rise in cases with some delay. Averaged over a few days the death count in Florida is still at an all-time high:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

Cherrypicking the data is not going to help...
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 13, 2020, 10:45:27 AM
Your argument is comparable to the guy bringing a snowball inside, touting the cold winter and on those grounds dismissing the reality of climate change.
you don't even make sense, but keep trying.
Quote
A rise in deaths is likely to occur as a consequence of a rise in cases with some delay. Averaged over a few days the death count in Florida is still at an all-time high:
not averaged over the last two day, but if we ASSume the 45 death number is an outlier, averaged over a week it is a high week.
Quote
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

Cherrypicking the data is not going to help...
Cherrypicking the data is exactly what the headline writers did to maximize scare factor ... I pulled that data from the same article with a headline arm waving over the new cases number.

Your data confirms what I said the 45 daily death figure is well below average/trend or however else you want to crunch it.

From your data you can see that the new deaths data did not increase as sharply as new cases data, even accounting for lag (new deaths generally lag new cases ASSuming they are living when diagnosed.).   

There does not appear to be a 1:1 rate of change correlation with new case diagnosis and new deaths (deaths are rising more slowly).

I am not a medical expert so I am far less certain about drawing hard conclusions about raw data, but I trust the headline writers judgement even less.   

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 13, 2020, 11:02:57 AM
you don't even make sense, but keep trying. not averaged over the last two day, but if we ASSume the 45 death number is an outlier, averaged over a week it is a high week. Cherrypicking the data is exactly what the headline writers did to maximize scare factor ...

And cherrypicking is exactly what you did to try to minimize scare factor.  Congratulations, John!!!  You're one of them now. 

Seriously;
1.  Deaths, as stated above, are a lagging indicator. It often is 4 weeks from diagnosis to death. 

2.  There's more and more evidence of long term ill effects from the disease, even in mild cases, and even in the young.  It's pretty fair to assume that a rise in cases will be accompanied by a rise in long-term health issues (not death, but not a good thing by any measure.)

3.  Look at hospitalizations.  They're way up.  Even if people are less likely to die from COVID now (and there does seem to be evidence that treatment is improving, and there might be other factors in a lower death rate as well), lots of folks are going to the hospital.  This takes a massive toll on healthcare workers and the healthcare system in general. 

These are just three reasons your disingenuous ballyhooing of lower death rates amid soaring case rates is both misguided  and dangerous. 

PS  I saw this after typing;  "Five states — Arizona, California, Florida, Mississippi and Texas — also broke records for average daily fatalities."  And while that may not contradict a lower fatality rate, it's still not a good sign.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 13, 2020, 11:28:42 AM
Florida reported a record 15,299 new cases of COVID19 in 24 hours... hidden down in the middle of the article was only 45 new deaths.

Again, there's nothing hidden in there. Nothing meaningfull can be inferred from a single day of lower deaths. And if you look at the 7-day average at worldometers, 45 deaths per day is above the average for the entire period of mid-May to early July. In reality, unfortunately, things are looking rather grim. Motivated reasoning doesn't help in a Pandemic.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 13, 2020, 12:55:29 PM
Again, there's nothing hidden in there. Nothing meaningfull can be inferred from a single day of lower deaths. And if you look at the 7-day average at worldometers, 45 deaths per day is above the average for the entire period of mid-May to early July. In reality, unfortunately, things are looking rather grim. Motivated reasoning doesn't help in a Pandemic.

Sorry but I consider below trend deaths more of a headline than data to be downplayed. BUT they are trumpeting the high numbers no doubt at least a partial result of increased testing.  Arguably both numbers are just data... Only media tries to make isolated data points more than they are. I mentioned deaths in passing because is was in the same article.

I also consider a zero death day in NYC a headline to celebrate, but I am an incurable optimist....

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 13, 2020, 01:00:34 PM
It appears the headline writers are still going for maximum scare.
Well of course they are, on all sides of the question (underreporting, overreporting, hyping, ignoring, etc), as that equals maximum readership and media money. But we're beating a dead horse here. The numbers are what they are, whatever course they follow, and the sequelae of contagion, morbidity and mortality will fall where they will. Those who can think can find the data and informed opinions, and those who can't will believe whatever supports their emotional bias.

But the USA is going into the sh*tter for various reasons currently, without strong, informed, competent national leadership (FDR, Churchill et al).

Woe is us.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 13, 2020, 02:31:15 PM

But the USA is going into the sh*tter for various reasons currently, without strong, informed, competent national leadership (FDR, Churchill et al).
 

I never thought I'd be posting a favourable opinion about George W Bush on here, but Trump hasn't once shown empathy and displayed leadership that the country has really needed.     Bush's video regarding the virus is the type of message that could have done much good in my opinion.

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1256607729151619073?s=20
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 13, 2020, 03:51:07 PM
I never thought I'd be posting a favourable opinion about George W Bush on here, but Trump hasn't once shown empathy and displayed leadership that the country has really needed.     Bush's video regarding the virus is the type of message that could have done much good in my opinion.

https://twitter.com/TheBushCenter/status/1256607729151619073?s=20
Yeah, I've often recently thought "Where's Dubya when you need him?" And the only reason I ever registered to vote was to vote against him.   :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 13, 2020, 03:53:51 PM
Rats leaving the sinking ship? Of course, this rat had already been thrown overboard.
Of course, when stupid affects your kids, it's a different ball game.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/mulvaney-calls-u-s-coronavirus-testing-abilities-inexcusable-breaking-from-trump/ar-BB16GtTr?ocid=bingcovid
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 13, 2020, 05:15:50 PM
Yeah, I've often recently thought "Where's Dubya when you need him?" And the only reason I ever registered to vote was to vote against him.   :o

:D. Yep, same here.   Crazy times   :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 13, 2020, 05:50:41 PM
Sorry but I consider below trend deaths more of a headline than data to be downplayed. BUT they are trumpeting the high numbers no doubt at least a partial result of increased testing.  Arguably both numbers are just data... Only media tries to make isolated data points more than they are. I mentioned deaths in passing because is was in the same article.
A plot of the trajectory of a 10 megaton ICBM at its peak would also show a very low number of deaths (like 0).  It's what happens later that is a stark contrast to the data in the beginning.  I understand your 'distrust the media' viewpoint but it isn't 'evidence of absence'.

I'm not sure why focusing on the number of daily deaths is so important:  it completely neglects a) there are other side-effects of COVID exposure other than outright death, and b) it shows the trajectory of confirmed infection rate and it's acceleration, just as exponential growth predicts.  It is also portending another log jam in the medical pipeline, which is already stretched thin (doctors and nurses have been on the front lines of this for MOTNHS).  If reporting this is 'scare tactics' then perhaps scare tactics are actually warranted in this case?

If anything, acceleration of 'confirmed cases' due to increased testing just means the pandemic is much farther along and much more severe that the current numbers currently indicate.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 13, 2020, 06:19:59 PM
A plot of the trajectory of a 10 megaton ICBM at its peak would also show a very low number of deaths (like 0).  It's what happens later that is a stark contrast to the data in the beginning.  I understand your 'distrust the media' viewpoint but it isn't 'evidence of absence'.
and the metaphors get even more bizarre
Quote
I'm not sure why focusing on the number of daily deaths is so important:  it completely neglects a) there are other side-effects of COVID exposure other than outright death, and b) it shows the trajectory of confirmed infection rate and it's acceleration, just as exponential growth predicts.  It is also portending another log jam in the medical pipeline, which is already stretched thin (doctors and nurses have been on the front lines of this for MOTNHS).  If reporting this is 'scare tactics' then perhaps scare tactics are actually warranted in this case?

If anything, acceleration of 'confirmed cases' due to increased testing just means the pandemic is much farther along and much more severe that the current numbers currently indicate.
Death seems to be the terminal side effect. Yes we suspect many more infections than test number reflect.

Nobody is saying this isn't serious. I even saw President Trump wearing a mask on TV...  ::)

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 13, 2020, 06:25:44 PM
  I even saw President Trump wearing a mask on TV...  ::)

And just like we do when a toddler manages their first poo in the potty, we congratulated him and said " good job"
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 13, 2020, 06:49:49 PM
P.S.   According to Drumpf's recent tweet,  ex game-show host Chuck Woolery is now a Covid expert. 

For
f**k's.
Sake.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 14, 2020, 07:23:22 AM
TBH looking there seems weird at least as far as deaths in Germany. I counted around 50 deaths the past 6 days in Berlin from the gov site...This site shows 42 for all of Germany in the same time frame....

The official count in Germany goes through the official channels (regional health offices, which often still use fax machines to transmit data...) and tends to lag the inofficial counts siginficantly. And a degree of variation between the various counts does generally exist, since the sourcing methods do differ as well.

Best to look at overall longer term trends. The counts can be compared and verified against excess mortality data, analysis of sewage and other means, so we get a pretty accurate and robust picture eventually.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 14, 2020, 10:00:49 AM
It looks to me that the White House is ready to throw Dr. Fauci under the bus, in order to place the blame for Trump's completely inept handling of the pandemic onto Fauci for the upcoming campaign. There is, according to news reports, a White House memo has been given to news outlets (that I can't find a complete copy of - Washington Post paywall) detailing Fauci's advice and statements that have turned out later to be incorrect as the pandemic has rolled along, and new science has changed the response to it.

So I can see in the coming months statements like "Well, I was just following the advice of my experts, which has been wrong. So it's not my fault this has turned out so badly."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-house-seeks-discredit-fauci-memo-leaked-reporters/story?id=71745265
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 14, 2020, 10:21:43 AM
It looks to me that the White House is ready to throw Dr. Fauci under the bus, in order to place the blame for Trump's completely inept handling of the pandemic onto Fauci for the upcoming campaign. There is, according to news reports, a White House memo has been given to news outlets (that I can't find a complete copy of - Washington Post paywall) detailing Fauci's advice and statements that have turned out later to be incorrect as the pandemic has rolled along, and new science has changed the response to it.

So I can see in the coming months statements like "Well, I was just following the advice of my experts, which has been wrong. So it's not my fault this has turned out so badly."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/white-house-seeks-discredit-fauci-memo-leaked-reporters/story?id=71745265
This could be media trying to make news.

Fauci has reversed himself before (wearing masks is an obvious example), but like I suggested at the time that was probably an attempt to preserve PPE in short supply for health professionals .  Now that I am seeing late night TV commercials for cheap masks I'd say the mask shortage is receding, at least for spit masks.

At a recent press conference they asked President Trumps spokeswoman to expand on the mistakes comment to stir the pot. She gave them several examples (her job is to answer questions).

Fauci is a media rock star so probably not going anywhere. That said he is not the only infectious disease expert. Apparently we have several posting right here.  ::)

JR 

 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 14, 2020, 12:08:52 PM
And just like we do when a toddler manages their first poo in the potty, we congratulated him and said " good job"
Thanks I think that's the first time I ever heard you say "good job" about President Trump. I suspect he was trying to ameliorate  objections like yours.

Consider also that this may be a "dog whistle" for his mindless followers, to mask up.  8)

I never did understand how mask wearing was somehow political***, it does seem more age/risk related, or personal perception of that risk.

JR

**** there is however an obvious political difference between trusting government to know all the answers and make life decisions for us, or not. That said many are apparently not competent making all those personal decisions alone. This is nothing new but can have bad outcomes from bad choices. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 14, 2020, 01:23:54 PM
Fauci is a media rock star so probably not going anywhere.
Not the way I see it - they've prepared a list of his "mistakes" which will be used in the campaign  to misdirect any responsibility Pants-on-Fire has for his huge screw up, and dump it on Fauci and other advisors.
Quote
That said he is not the only infectious disease expert. Apparently we have several posting right here.  ::)
That reminds me - about time for my weekly update on how things are going.  :)   No change, except the sh*tstorm special is roaring down the tracks out of control.  :(

Well, it looks like the pandemic is out of control (just my uninformed opinion.) The stupidity and lack of self control of people (all the way to the top), and politicizing the mask/mitigation measures seem to be the main factors. Hop on for the ride, the sh!tstorm special is leaving the station.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 14, 2020, 03:58:41 PM
We haven't really touched yet on the suicide pact Trump is demanding of school-aged children, and their teachers/staff.  Simple statistics says there will be hundreds of dead children, and countless dead teachers and parents/grandparents directly as a result of being forced back into school, once the inevitable outbreaks start occurring.

But we have to get the economy restarted, preferably as close to November 3rd as possible, and that takes priority over everything else.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 14, 2020, 04:30:35 PM
We haven't really touched yet on the suicide pact Trump is demanding of school-aged children, and their teachers/staff.  Simple statistics says there will be hundreds of dead children, and countless dead teachers and parents/grandparents directly as a result of being forced back into school, once the inevitable outbreaks start occurring.
oh dear....  ::)
Quote
But we have to get the economy restarted, preferably as close to November 3rd as possible, and that takes priority over everything else.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/18/french-minister-tells-of-risks-of-missing-school-as-more-pupils-return-covid-19 (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/18/french-minister-tells-of-risks-of-missing-school-as-more-pupils-return-covid-19)

Opinions and facts vary....

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 14, 2020, 05:51:50 PM
I took a minute to listen to Trump, & he is either an idiot or thinks most Americans are idiots.  Probably both.  Dreadful. 
(Not that this is news to anyone--I just had to make sure nothing had changed.)

(BTW, he was, in a portion of his rambling, discussing lower death rates--something that's been discussed here.  If the lag between newly reported cases and deaths is about 4 weeks, a rough guess from today's Georgia deaths (28) and new cases from about 4 weeks ago (about 850) would suggest a death rate in the neighborhood of 3%.  Better than 2 months ago, but not the astounding numbers touted by Trump and his sheeple.)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 14, 2020, 06:04:30 PM
We haven't really touched yet on the suicide pact Trump is demanding of school-aged children, and their teachers/staff.  Simple statistics says there will be hundreds of dead children, and countless dead teachers and parents/grandparents directly as a result of being forced back into school, once the inevitable outbreaks start occurring.


Children in school may not be the problem it was expected to be:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/13/german-study-covid-19-infection-rate-schools-saxony

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 14, 2020, 06:38:49 PM
Children in school may not be the problem it was expected to be:
Unfortunately, it's hard to extrapolate outcomes in the USA from places that have functioning democracies, social safety nets, and competent leadership.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 15, 2020, 09:50:37 AM
It's pretty telling that when the numbers start looking bad, Trump can only whine about the number of tests given (because tests cause coronavirus?  Who knows.  That whole "less testing=less virus" schtick is to crazy for me to even try to comprehend), and make moves to get more control of testing data so he can fudge the numbers. 

That is how you beat a pandemic!  That right there is how the pros do it!
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 15, 2020, 12:48:17 PM
Children in school may not be the problem it was expected to be:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/13/german-study-covid-19-infection-rate-schools-saxony
As should be obvious from some of the inflammatory comments ("suicide pact") this is a politically charged subject with competing interests besides the well being of the children. Keeping the economy underperforming is expected to favor one political party over the other ("its the economy stupid"..  James Carville ).

Ironically suicide is one unintended consequence of extended lock downs (along with increased domestic violence, etc).

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-uk-child-suicide-mental-health-nhs-a9617671.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-uk-child-suicide-mental-health-nhs-a9617671.html)

Good luck separating the wheat from the chaff in this hyper partisan environment.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 15, 2020, 12:52:07 PM
Only the best people! (https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/14/vice-president-pence-wants-schools-reopened-lsus-ed-orgeron-really-wants-football/)

Quote from: Mike Pence
We don't want CDC guidance to be a reason why people don't reopen their schools.
Yes Mike:  we don't want the poison label on the bleach bottle to be a reason why kids don't chug it at dinner.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 15, 2020, 12:53:37 PM
As should be obvious from some of the inflammatory comments ("suicide pact") this is a politically charged subject with competing interests besides the well being of the children.
Can I ASSume from your posts that you'll be sending your kids back to school this fall without reservations?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 15, 2020, 02:38:27 PM
Can I ASSume from your posts that you'll be sending your kids back to school this fall without reservations?
I can't tell you how relieved I am to be old, and not have any kids or long term future outcomes to worry about, but i do worry about others even if not related. 

If I did have children I would send them back to school, without unusual reservations about COVID, I do have plenty of reservations about modern education. For one example the LA teachers union is demanding defunding of police (to give them that money) and a moratorium on charter schools, oh and medicare for all....  ::)  Never let a crisis go to waste.

My sundry nieces and nephews are older than school age, but they have kids. Home schooling looks pretty good these days. I know a few people who home schooled their kids and they had no regrets. I literally do not know what my nieces and nephews are doing. They don't ask my advice.

The bigger risk IMO from reopening schools is that these snot monsters will carry infections home to their parents (a common vector for community spread of normal flu and contagious infections). I have seen proposals to partition the students into small groups (pods?) to make it easier to manage quarantine and contact tracing as necessary. In theory this is putting parents and close relatives at somewhat elevated risk, but will also allow them to return to their former jobs, also a risk factor.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 15, 2020, 03:30:30 PM

The bigger risk IMO from reopening schools is that these snot monsters will carry infections home to their parents (a common vector for community spread of normal flu and contagious infections). I have seen proposals to partition the students into small groups (pods?) to make it easier to manage quarantine and contact tracing as necessary. In theory this is putting parents and close relatives at somewhat elevated risk, but will also allow them to return to their former jobs, also a risk factor.

JR

I do have a kid in school (he'll be a senior in HS this year), and I do worry about him and his schoolmates being vectors for the virus.  While there seems to be evidence that little kids present less risk, I don't know about high school age children.  It's also worth noting that all this data is very preliminary.

So my kid's school system is starting 2 weeks late and starting virtual.  I think this is the smart choice, as Georgia (like most of the Sun Belt) is seeing its highest case rates yet.  Until the politicians and the people manage to get it together, online learning seems the right place to start.  After that, there will likely be an alternating-day type schedule to allow for more social distancing and smaller risk pools.  Online schooling will happen on the kids' off days, and the thought right now is that there will be an online-only option throughout the school year. 

Probably more than you wanted to know. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 15, 2020, 04:12:43 PM
The bigger risk IMO from reopening schools is that these snot monsters will carry infections home to their parents (a common vector for community spread of normal flu and contagious infections).
Indeed, this is an excellent reason why threatening to pull funding from schools that don't reopen is absurd, bordering on criminally negligent (apologies in advance for the inflammatory language).  Even assuming zero deaths amongst children, the adult staff, parents, administrators, and extended family are all being put in jeopardy.  We don't yet know what other co-morbidities exist for a statistically significant population of school-aged children.

What France and Germany taught us (in the very article you linked previously) is that controlled reopening assumes a) infection rates (first derivative of total confirmed positive cases) are under control, b) a testing infrastructure that can turn around test results in a matter of days (for people can be quarantined effectively), c) enough reserve capacity in the healthcare pipeline that outbreaks can be quickly responded to, and d) a populace that takes control measures seriously...

...you know, the exact opposite of many places in the USA.

wlinart's post in the other thread should be a cautionary tale that COVID outcomes are not a binary space of "lived with zero consequences" and "died horribly in a matter of days".
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 15, 2020, 04:59:00 PM
Karma strikes another dumb f**k.

Stitt advocated for President Trump's in-person campaign rally in Tulsa last month. He attended the rally himself and was seen in images of the event not wearing a face mask.
Oklahoma Health Commissioner Lance Frye said Wednesday that it's unclear where Stitt contracted the virus, but "it wasn't so far back as the rally."


 Yeah, right.

When asked at Wednesday's press conference if he regretted not wearing a mask often, Stitt said: "I don't really second-guess anything."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/oklahoma-governor-tests-positive-for-covid-19/ar-BB16M5Ab?ocid=bingcovid

Folks not  wearing masks and distancing are a great part of what's causing surging cases, new lockdowns and tanking the economy, They're pissed off about it, but too stupid to realize that they are driving it.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: john12ax7 on July 15, 2020, 10:49:14 PM
New mandate to bypass the CDC in data reporting is a bit troubling.  Will there be transparency?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 15, 2020, 11:30:16 PM
New mandate to bypass the CDC in data reporting is a bit troubling.  Will there be transparency?
Maybe Trump needs to find and hire this guy?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7KW3VkWkAAmLHW.png:large)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 16, 2020, 05:53:54 AM
It appears the headline writers are still going for maximum scare.

Florida reported a record 15,299 new cases of COVID19 in 24 hours... hidden down in the middle of the article was only 45 new deaths. That death number seems lower than recent trend.

Of course, everybody repeats the headline test numbers as justification for lockdowns.

Coincidentally NY reported first day with zero COVID deaths to far less fanfare.

JR

Just to follow up on this for a minute, the death toll in Florida has climbed, as, sadly, it was to be feared from the data.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/

A day of 45 was followed by 35, but then 132 and 112, so the daily average of deaths now tracks the infection curve with the expected lag. Looking at the data, there isn't much hope to expect it will suddenly deviate downwards.

So, focussing on the record number of infections at the time, which are the closest indicator of the current state of affairs, while ignoring statistical flukes in the daily death toll (thank goodness also a much smaller sample size and thus more prone to variations) was the correct thing to do.

Especially if you understand that the press has a vital role to play to inform people about imminent dangers, who in turn play their own role in minimizing exposure for them and others to this current danger.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
Here's a good rundown about the predictable relationship between new Covid infections and deaths:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/second-coronavirus-death-surge/614122/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on July 16, 2020, 07:20:12 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/16/health/us-coronavirus-thursday/index.html

This is what freedom looks like.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on July 16, 2020, 07:35:25 AM
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/texas-newspaper-prints-43-page-obituary-section-coronavirus-deaths-soar-1517297%3famp=1

     More freedom for the hoax pushers. It would appear my contempt for the right is seeming much more like common sense. Weird, huh?
     I permanently removed a neighbor from my yard last week when he said, "I wear masks for people like you so that you feel better." I SCREAMED at him to tell him that that was the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Argument calmed down and he said "At least we can agree on Trump 2020. Keep America Great." I told him he was never welcome again and was shouting even more loudly as he backpedaled, that I would call the police to have him removed if he didn't do it immediately himself. I am DONE with the stupidity... especially on my property. The whole argument began by him telling me about carrying his shotgun across the street to intimidate neighbors for lighting off fireworks at midnight in the middle of the week... just as a low IQ right-winger would. Freedom.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on July 16, 2020, 07:47:22 AM
I recently discovered a pro administration news service ( OAN). It is a little disconcerting to hear news without the unending negative liberal/progressive spin.

JR

OAN is poison. I've been watching it for over 5 years. They are as pro-trump as it gets. They have several one-hour specials about the "Seth Rich Conspiracy". They literally have propaganda garbage contradicting checkable facts.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/oan-trumps-new-favorite-channel-employs-kremlin-paid-journalist

POISON.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Script on July 16, 2020, 07:53:16 AM
Found the attached graphs in an article linked to above.

What are NJ and NY doing that LA is not ?

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Eb2ZppscQQSL0hMtiC1cxo6qHUo=/672x385/filters:format(png)/media/img/posts/2020/07/fourth_coviddeaths/original.png (https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Eb2ZppscQQSL0hMtiC1cxo6qHUo=/672x385/filters:format(png)/media/img/posts/2020/07/fourth_coviddeaths/original.png)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 16, 2020, 08:43:55 AM
OAN is poison. I've been watching it for over 5 years. They are as pro-trump as it gets. They have several one-hour specials about the "Seth Rich Conspiracy". They literally have propaganda garbage contradicting checkable facts.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/oan-trumps-new-favorite-channel-employs-kremlin-paid-journalist

POISON.
I can't watch because it is too favorable (seems unnatural). Even relatively politics neutral business news channels have become corrupted  with never-Trump bias.

Not surprising that competing world powers work to weaken us from the inside, it's what they do.

Good luck making sense of news reports. The WSJ still seems reasonably reliable (except  for obvious mistakes I've caught).

JR


Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 16, 2020, 09:00:37 AM
Found the attached graphs in an article linked to above.

What are NJ and NY doing that LA is not ?

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Eb2ZppscQQSL0hMtiC1cxo6qHUo=/672x385/filters:format(png)/media/img/posts/2020/07/fourth_coviddeaths/original.png (https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/Eb2ZppscQQSL0hMtiC1cxo6qHUo=/672x385/filters:format(png)/media/img/posts/2020/07/fourth_coviddeaths/original.png)
recovering already,,, trends look similar just displaced in time.  A little unexpected that results would be so similar in cases per million scale.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 16, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
OK for today's local observations... pretty much 100% mask wearing at my Walmart for this week's shopping trip. Perhaps related to Walmart mandating mask use. 

MS governor mandated mask use for about a dozen counties (not my county tho).

Besides spit mask ads on TV for a dollah, Amazon finally has n95 masks for sale to consumers... still somewhat elevated price ($4), but not as usurious as scammers who sold them for as much as $20 ea. My one N95 mask was getting a little rough (dirty) even though I only use it for 20 minutes once a week during my food shopping.

I use a disposable dust mask for my daily post office visits.

I am still reading about shortages in COVID testing supplies hampering some testing activity. We will need even more testing to safely open the economy.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 16, 2020, 12:36:55 PM
New mandate to bypass the CDC in data reporting is a bit troubling.  Will there be transparency?
Hard to say what's really going on, but I have complete confidence that Potus Pants-on-Fire's HHS director certainly wouldn't manipulate data, not with an election coming up.  ::)

CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield told reporters on a conference call Wednesday that states were told to stop sending hospital information to the National Healthcare Safety Network site, the CDC’s system for gathering data, beginning Wednesday. Instead, all data will now be reported through HHS’ reporting portal, officials said, adding that the decision was made to streamline data reporting and to provide HHS officials with real-time data.
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/us-coronavirus-data-has-already-disappeared-after-trump-administration-shifted-control-from-cdc-to-hhs/2518374/

Here's the instructions from HHS, pages 9 and 10:
https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/covid-19-faqs-hospitals-hospital-laboratory-acute-care-facility-data-reporting.pdf
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 16, 2020, 12:44:36 PM
OK for today's local observations... pretty much 100% mask wearing at my Walmart for this week's shopping trip. Perhaps related to Walmart mandating mask use. 
Went for q2week shopping yesterday. Some improvement at Walmart with probably 8/10 wearing masks. We were told that starting Monday Walmart would mandate mask use for all stores in US. I don't see how they will enforce it, but I reckon they must have a plan - hire enforcers?

If enough people jump on board the mask train and start vocally social shaming to non-maskers, that would help, but probably lead to armed confrontations and shootings in this great free society of ours.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 16, 2020, 04:18:05 PM
Karma strikes another dumb f**k.
 

How about another one - game-show host Chuck Woolery who was re-tweeted the other day by Trump saying:

"The most outrageous lies are the ones about Covid 19. Everyone is lying. The CDC, Media, Democrats, our Doctors, not all but most, that we are told to trust. I think it’s all about the election and keeping the economy from coming back, which is about the election. I’m sick of it."

But days later:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/507663-chuck-woolery-deletes-twitter-account-after-announcing-his-son-has-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR0WvPJtYjgHPLadc_mvQAA2mh3zLX7zvcIj0aXa884qqU5Shu8E35CHCo0




Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 16, 2020, 04:45:38 PM
Hard to say what's really going on, but I have complete confidence that Potus Pants-on-Fire's HHS director certainly wouldn't manipulate data, not with an election coming up.  ::)
(https://i.imgur.com/ul7gqFi.jpg)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 16, 2020, 06:27:39 PM
How about another one - game-show host Chuck Woolery who was re-tweeted the other day by Trump saying:

"The most outrageous lies are the ones about Covid 19. Everyone is lying. The CDC, Media, Democrats, our Doctors, not all but most, that we are told to trust. I think it’s all about the election and keeping the economy from coming back, which is about the election. I’m sick of it."

But days later:

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/507663-chuck-woolery-deletes-twitter-account-after-announcing-his-son-has-coronavirus?fbclid=IwAR0WvPJtYjgHPLadc_mvQAA2mh3zLX7zvcIj0aXa884qqU5Shu8E35CHCo0
I guess there is a karmaman, like the sandman, who comes around at night and sprinkles karma over deserving folk. Maybe he's currently having trouble getting through the Secret Service, but I wish him luck in the near future.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 16, 2020, 06:33:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ul7gqFi.jpg)
another Sharpiegate!

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/hgKJr5wikb1IPbjau8APYuigVeU=/0x0:2678x1785/920x613/filters:focal(807x730:1235x1158)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/65193692/1172289651.jpg.0.jpg)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 16, 2020, 07:00:03 PM
One month ago, Mike Pence wrote in the WSJ:
"The media has tried to scare the American people every step of the way, and these grim predictions of a second wave are no different. The truth is, whatever the media says, our whole-of-America approach has been a success."

Sorry, Mikey.  Mission not accomplished.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 16, 2020, 11:49:11 PM
Sorry, Mikey.  Mission not accomplished.
I guess he's still just watching a different movie?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 17, 2020, 06:55:04 AM
We were told that starting Monday Walmart would mandate mask use for all stores in US. I don't see how they will enforce it, but I reckon they must have a plan - hire enforcers?


Ask the shopper to put it on, if they don't ask them to leave, if they don't - call the cops on them.

Over here in Germany everybody is wearing a mask by government mandate for what feels like months now when shopping. I haven't seen someone without a mask in a supermarket yet.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 17, 2020, 08:41:20 AM

Over here in Germany everybody is wearing a mask by government mandate for what feels like months now when shopping. I haven't seen someone without a mask in a supermarket yet.

Germany as a whole has handled this a whole lot better than most from the beginning.
I've spent my time in this thread hammering the US response, but I don't have too many positive words I can say about my own country either.

We are supposed to start wearing masks while shopping from the 24th of this month.  The 24th?  Why not months ago?
I can't say how many folks are already wearing masks as I've left the house exactly 3 times since the beginning of March and only then under the cover of dark. 
But there are already idiots I've seen posting online in a local group who say they won't be wearing a mask come the 24th!!!
I'm f**king exhausted from the empathy and worry for the vulnerable out there.   
 

 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: iturnknobs on July 17, 2020, 09:28:35 AM
...and if you didn't b*tch to your governmental leaders about the sign that reads No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service before Corona Virus... shut your f*cking mouth about wearing a mask in public. You had you chance to scream freedom and you didn't.

This doesn't even make sense....

People are free to agree with something or not regardless I think. Like the open the economy etc...

.  Implying that because people generally didn't have a problem with one thing means they shouldn't have a problem with another is goofy.

I'm not even certain it is government mandated to require shirts and shoes. I always thought it was a choice of the business owner's but I really don't know.

Not only does this make sense, but I'm guessing you are compliant with a seat belt law in your state that you can be fined for disobeying and it only protects you. Masks=Freedom. This is the new reality.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 17, 2020, 09:50:36 AM
I'm guessing you are compliant with a seat belt law in your state that you can be fined for disobeying and it only protects you. Masks=Freedom. This is the new reality.

Speed limits, smoking inside public places etc..    It's part of the Social Contract.  You give up some freedoms in return for protection of your principal rights and to maintain the social order.   

 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 17, 2020, 10:13:13 AM
If enough people jump on board the mask train and start vocally social shaming to non-maskers, that would help, but probably lead to armed confrontations and shootings in this great free society of ours.
Wow, I didn't realize it's already been going on, multiple incidents. Google "gun not wearing mask".
Here's one from a week ago:

Arlo Kinsey was working behind the carryout counter at RJ’s Bob-Be-Que Shack in Mission last week when a middle-aged man dressed in a red Make America Great Again hat — and no mask — walked through the door.

“I asked him if he could wear a mask, since it’s what Gov. Kelly told us to do,” said Kinsey, 18..... The man said he had an exemption to the mask order: He then lifted up his shirt, revealing a gun in a holster on his hip.

“It was definitely a threat,” Kinsey said. “I was looking at the gun thinking he was going to shoot me.”

“My first thought was, I work in customer service and this is really what’s going to happen? All we’re asking is that you wear a mask for a couple of minutes. We could have taken your order outside if you didn’t want to. But you go into an air conditioned area without a mask on, and if I tell you to wear one, you’re going to shoot me? Wow. I make $8.50 an hour, plus tips — for this?”

Kinsey called for his boss, Bob Palmgren.....“(Kinsey) comes around and says this guy won’t put a mask on and has a gun, and I’m like holy sh*t. I run over there, and I’m like hey, what’s going on? And he shows me his Trump hat,” Palmgren said. “And I like Trump. Everybody’s got problems. But it doesn’t make a difference. You don’t have a mask on. And I’m like, your gun’s not going to kill coronavirus, now get the hell out of here.”

“I get people in here that don’t want to do it and think that we’re a small place so we won’t enforce it or something,” he said. “But if everybody gets sick, then I’m out of business. So I’ve got to enforce these rules.”


https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article244189047.html
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 17, 2020, 10:20:09 AM
I've spent my time in this thread hammering the US response, but I don't have too many positive words I can say about my own country either....   But there are already idiots I've seen posting online in a local group who say they won't be wearing a mask come the 24th!!!
I'm surprised. I thought all those people came to America hundreds of years ago.    ???
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 17, 2020, 01:14:39 PM
Glitch? :-\

https://floridahealthcovid19.gov/
Probably just that great new HHC covid reporting software.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 17, 2020, 07:58:15 PM
Glitch? :-\

Checking the site moments ago and, miraculously, total deaths to date have now gone down again (by almost half those in Scott's screen capture), as have the other numbers.   It doesn't inspire confidence in knowing what the actual numbers are. 
Especially on the back end of the scientist who created Florida's  online dashboard claiming last month she was fired for refusing to manipulate the data.    :-\

Edit:  Wait!  The numbers now are listed as exactly half what they were earlier today!

 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 18, 2020, 09:49:27 AM
Went for q2week shopping yesterday. Some improvement at Walmart with probably 8/10 wearing masks. We were told that starting Monday Walmart would mandate mask use for all stores in US. I don't see how they will enforce it, but I reckon they must have a plan - hire enforcers?
AHA! "Health Ambassadors"  A rose by any other name. :D
From an email I got from Walmart Walmart today:

"We’ll have a health ambassador stationed near the entrance of our stores to help remind you of this policy. The ambassadors will be identifiable by their black polo shirts. "
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on July 18, 2020, 09:59:13 AM
AHA! "Health Ambassadors"  A rose by any other name. :D
From an email I got from Walmart Walmart today:

"We’ll have a health ambassador stationed near the entrance of our stores to help remind you of this policy. The ambassadors will be identifiable by their black polo shirts. "

I keep saying stores should be hiring out-of-work nightclub bouncers to sit at the store entrance and enforce mask wearing.  The really good ones rarely, if ever, get into a fight with a patron.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 18, 2020, 12:24:50 PM
I keep saying stores should be hiring out-of-work nightclub bouncers to sit at the store entrance and enforce mask wearing.  The really good ones rarely, if ever, get into a fight with a patron.
Not to quibble but

Quote from: WWW
George Floyd and former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin both worked as security guards at the same nightclub as recently as last year,

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on July 18, 2020, 12:51:04 PM
Not to quibble but

What's your point, John?
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 18, 2020, 01:05:04 PM
What's your point, John?
You suggested hiring out of work night club bouncers... Both George Floyd and ex-officer Derek Chauvin worked as night club security (fancy job description for bouncers).

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on July 18, 2020, 03:39:11 PM
You suggested hiring out of work night club bouncers... Both George Floyd and ex-officer Derek Chauvin worked as night club security (fancy job description for bouncers).

JR

I'm still not sure what your point is. George Floyd was, by all reputable accounts, not a violent man.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 18, 2020, 04:14:32 PM
I'm still not sure what your point is. George Floyd was, by all reputable accounts, not a violent man.
The man who killed Floyd was a bouncer. . Not sure I want Chauvin working the door at my Walmart.
===
I wasn't trying to besmirch Floyd (RIP) I was only pointing out that he and the officer who killed him were both "bouncers". They probably knew each other from working overlapping shifts at same club.

Since you brought up the subject according to Snopes George Floyd was busted for several low level drug and robbery beefs (9 times between 97 and 07, with several months long prison sentences). In 2007, authorities arrested and charged Floyd with his most serious crime: aggravated robbery with a deadly weapon.

At 6'7" he didn't need to be violent, I am not saying he was.... Since it was over a decade since his last arrest a lot could have changed.

==
sorry for the veer folks... I was trying to be cute with a timely reference about bouncers and started another unintentional argument. 

JR

https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/ (https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/06/12/george-floyd-criminal-record/)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 18, 2020, 05:20:09 PM
One of the amazing things is how easy it seemingly would have been for Trump to have a win on COVID:  act quickly and decisively, push for more masks and testing early on, insist on a mask mandate upon reopening.  And the other amazing thing is how completely he's blown it to this point.  I'm stealing a quote from an interview with Mary Trump because I think it's as good an explanation as any of his failure, and pretty much lays out reason number one that he's unsuited to be president: 

"The reason he is failing at it is because he is incapable of succeeding at it. It would have required taking responsibility, which would in his mind, have meant admitting a mistake, which in his mind would be admitting weakness and in my family, was essentially treated with the death penalty, symbolically."
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 18, 2020, 07:48:51 PM
One of the amazing things is how easy it seemingly would have been for Trump to have a win on COVID:  act quickly and decisively, push for more masks and testing early on, insist on a mask mandate upon reopening.  And the other amazing thing is how completely he's blown it to this point.   

I can't think of another president in my lifetime that showed less leadership, empathy, resolve...  in the face of a crisis.
 
Incredible to me is that anyone (outside his heirs)  is still saying he's done a good job with coronavirus. 




 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 19, 2020, 02:38:32 PM
Incredible to me is that anyone (outside his heirs)  is still saying he's done a good job with coronavirus.
Homo sapiens is full of morons - a lot of them are still apparently leeched on to their host for a last meal.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 19, 2020, 11:04:13 PM
I just hand washed one in hot water with a little detergent and some Clorox Spray for laundry.... Rinsed real well in hot water.....Threw it in the spin cycle and it seems to have held up nicely.....

Not sure if I ruined the effectiveness but seems pretty ok... Which is within the standards anyhow I guess....
Thanx,, I have a few new n95s on order and only wear the full n95 once a week for my 20 minutes grocery shopping.

The daily post office visit is more about looking like I am wearing a proper mask, so wearing a cheap spit mask works for that.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 19, 2020, 11:09:59 PM
I just hand washed one in hot water with a little detergent and some Clorox Spray for laundry.... Rinsed real well in hot water.....Threw it in the spin cycle and it seems to have held up nicely.....

Not sure if I ruined the effectiveness but seems pretty ok... Which is within the standards anyhow I guess....
Here's some info about cleaning masks from Peter Tsai, the inventor of the N95 (plus a coauthor).  He's come out of retirement to help out during the pandemic.

https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(20)30369-3/fulltext (https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(20)30369-3/fulltext)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: ruairioflaherty on July 19, 2020, 11:55:35 PM
Unrelated to the mask thread of this conversation but tonight I ordered my wife a history of The Spanish Flu called "The Great Influenza" by John Barry.

This quote from the author struck me

"So the final lesson of 1918, a simple one yet one most difficult to execute, is that those who occupy positions of authority must lessen the panic that can alienate all within a society. Society cannot function if it is every man for himself. By definition, civilization cannot survive that. Those in authority must retain the public’s trust. The way to do that is to distort nothing, to put the best face on nothing, to try to manipulate no one. Lincoln said that first, and best. A leader must make whatever horror exists concrete. Only then will people be able to break it apart"
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Matador on July 19, 2020, 11:58:12 PM
True, but everyone knows the Spanish Flu had a liberal bias.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 20, 2020, 10:07:56 AM
Here's some info about cleaning masks from Peter Tsai, the inventor of the N95 (plus a coauthor).  He's come out of retirement to help out during the pandemic.

https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(20)30369-3/fulltext (https://www.jem-journal.com/article/S0736-4679(20)30369-3/fulltext)
thanks good info... 

I only use my one n95 mask once a week so probably safe as is.

JR

[update- I cooked my masks yesterday. My oven only goes down to 170' not as low as the advice but nothing melted or toasted. [/update]
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Scodiddly on July 20, 2020, 06:44:22 PM
Pretty good video on making your own N95 mask with materials on hand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89o5040HGhQ
The author is a rather exaggerated Australian, but he has some very funny videos involving cats as well.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 20, 2020, 11:13:27 PM
Elsewhere I saw where Peter Tsai (Mr. N95) suggested that blue shop towels are effective for making homemade masks. A quick web search reveals videos and info on using them,  if anyone's doing the diy mask thing. 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 22, 2020, 11:03:32 AM
Thanx,, I have a few new n95s on order and only wear the full n95 once a week for my 20 minutes grocery shopping.

The daily post office visit is more about looking like I am wearing a proper mask, so wearing a cheap spit mask works for that.

JR
It looks like they pulled a bait and switch...

I ordered n95 masks, but "non-medical, non-surgical", kn95 masks arrived... 

The amazon item description has been changed to reflect KN95...   

arghhh... being  returned

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 23, 2020, 01:11:20 PM
For today's shopping trip mask update... Pretty much 100% were wearing masks at Walmart.... On of the door greeters was wearing what looked like a costume store badge... I don't know if he was making a joke, or Walmart is.  ::)

Mask wearing at the post office was much lower compliance, besides me maybe one other person masked, several not. 25% or less.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 26, 2020, 08:27:05 AM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07/25/nation/bipartisan-group-secretly-gathered-game-out-contested-trump-biden-election-it-wasnt-pretty/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 26, 2020, 12:39:16 PM
I've pretty much given up any hope of this pandemic improving much in the near future. Complete lack of any astute national leadership and a comprehensive plan to get this under control, and the fragmented response of the populace to even simple common sense control measures has turned this into a clusterfuk. As expected, deaths are now increasing in CA, AZ, TX FL as a response to the increasing case numbers in the last few weeks. Texas (mask mandate) looks like it might be starting to flatten the curve, but too early to tell.

I guess our best hope is a vaccine, but the distribution and efficacy of that will also probably be a disaster.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 26, 2020, 01:03:03 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07/25/nation/bipartisan-group-secretly-gathered-game-out-contested-trump-biden-election-it-wasnt-pretty/
paywall
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 26, 2020, 01:24:14 PM
paywall

Jist of the story is here:

https://www.rawstory.com/2020/07/experts-gamed-out-a-contested-2020-election-all-scenarios-resulted-in-street-level-violence-in-america/
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 26, 2020, 02:26:08 PM
I've pretty much given up any hope of this pandemic improving much in the near future. Complete lack of any astute national leadership and a comprehensive plan to get this under control, and the fragmented response of the populace to even simple common sense control measures has turned this into a clusterfuk. As expected, deaths are now increasing in CA, AZ, TX FL as a response to the increasing case numbers in the last few weeks. Texas (mask mandate) looks like it might be starting to flatten the curve, but too early to tell.

I guess our best hope is a vaccine, but the distribution and efficacy of that will also probably be a disaster.
Since this is the politics thread I thought I share a political observation.

==One headline about a "student" Covid death raising concerns about reopening schools was a 19YO  college student... reading a little deeper into the story he was working as a custodian in an elementary school where two others also contracted COVID.

I don't find this article very instructive about risk for younger children returning to classrooms, but the politics are transparent, if kids must stay home, parent care givers can't easily return to work. Keeping the economy under performing will reflect poorly on the current administration (It's the economy stupid).

Of course the opposition will argue that POTUS would risk the safety of children to improve his reelection chances.  We can learn from other nations that have already reopened schools, and we need to also understand the downside (besides economic) of not returning students to classrooms.

The dead elementary school janitor (student?) suggests that school surely needs to review its safety practices before it opens.   

==Another headline painting a deceptive picture from CNN. "A Florida mother lost a son to Covid-19. Days later, her daughter also died of it"... She lost two adult children aged 20 and 23 . Both were homebound with health issues(?) but fine  ::).

It is not that unusual for headlines to tell the reader one thing to think while not being supported by the body of the article. Caveat Lector.

JR

 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 26, 2020, 03:06:24 PM
I don't find this article very instructive about risk for younger children returning to classrooms, but the politics are transparent, if kids must stay home, parent care givers can't easily return to work. Keeping the economy under performing will reflect poorly on the current administration (It's the economy stupid).

Of course the opposition will argue that POTUS would risk the safety of children to improve his reelection chances. We can learn from other nations that have already reopened schools, and we need to also understand the downside (besides economic) of not returning students to classrooms.   
I believe other nations that have reopened schools were well on the downside of the prevalence curve - we are nowhere near that. Most places had a national plan for dealing with the epidemic - the US has a bunch of fragmented areas with wildly different disease characteristics and plans (or lack thereof), and there is no comprehensive plan to keep it from spreading from one area to another. Schools could be opened in some places with low disease, and rational plans to keep it from entering, and to keep it from spreading if it does. But it is crazy to think of opening schools in areas where the spread is out of control.

Whatever happens, it should be up to the parents whether or not to send their kids to school or not if they are open, and to live with the consequences of their decision either way. Caveat emptor.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 26, 2020, 03:50:41 PM
I believe other nations that have reopened schools were well on the downside of the prevalence curve - we are nowhere near that.
Of course it needs to be local data driven and scientific, not a political decision that fallaciously suggests all open or none.
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Most places had a national plan for dealing with the epidemic -
an easy criticism in hindsight.
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the US has a bunch of fragmented areas with wildly different disease characteristics and plans (or lack thereof), and there is no comprehensive plan to keep it from spreading from one area to another.
The federal government has authority wrt interstate commerce but I am not sure how opening schools will increase transmission over state lines?
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Schools could be opened in some places with low disease, and rational plans to keep it from entering, and to keep it from spreading if it does.
exactly
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But it is crazy to think of opening schools in areas where the spread is out of control.
also true.
Quote
Whatever happens, it should be up to the parents whether or not to send their kids to school or not if they are open, and to live with the consequences of their decision either way. Caveat emptor.
There seems to be some conflict between what parents want and the teachers unions. One suggestion I heard wants parents to receive vouchers if their local schools don't open that they can use to pay for charter schools or alternate schooling. Of course the established bureaucracy objects to that.

The LA teachers union has a longer list of demands including defunding the police and a moratorium against charter schools (and a bunch more, never let a crisis go to waste).

Politics is trying to frame this as two bad (absolute) choices, hopefully we can be more thoughtful. 

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 26, 2020, 05:37:03 PM
Quote
an easy criticism in hindsight.
Especially when there was a complete lack of foresight, and there was copious evidence of what needed to be done. Even dumbsh!t me knew it wasn't going to disappear like a miracle.

History will be cruel, and rightly so.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 26, 2020, 05:38:44 PM
There seems to be some conflict between what parents want and the teachers unions.

What parents want is the opportunity to safely send their kids back to school.  Trump's premature reopening cost them that opportunity for the time being.  It's also costing about a thousand American lives each day at this point. 

Trump screwed all this up (why is it that Stalin's "Dizzy with success" line keeps passing through my head?), and now he's trying to bully the nation into screwing up even more because he thinks reopening schools will help him get re-elected.   
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 26, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
Here's a letter to the powers that be, signed by hundreds of health professionals (myself included), advising (in a nice way), that the decision makers dealing with this pandemic get their sh!t together. (Not that it will have any noticeable effect.)

https://uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/USP_Public-health_final-letter-shutdowns_V2.pdf

If any ordinary citizens feel the same way, here is a petition they can sign:

https://uspirg.webaction.org/p/dia/action4/common/public/?action_KEY=39314&_ga=2.230873119.161365938.1595804553-1319728744.1595804553
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 27, 2020, 12:17:44 PM
Especially when there was a complete lack of foresight, and there was copious evidence of what needed to be done. Even dumbsh!t me knew it wasn't going to disappear like a miracle.

History will be cruel, and rightly so.
History hasn't been written yet and I am not smart enough to predict outcome from here.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 27, 2020, 12:59:19 PM
Here's a letter to the powers that be, signed by hundreds of health professionals (myself included), advising (in a nice way), that the decision makers dealing with this pandemic get their sh!t together. (Not that it will have any noticeable effect.)

https://uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/USP_Public-health_final-letter-shutdowns_V2.pdf
That sounds (too) simple... but makes an effective political argument (accusing President Trump for killing thousands of people). Even Nancy Pelosi calls it the "Trump virus" trying to pin the tail that ass....(I made the obvious political joke so you didn't have to). 
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If any ordinary citizens feel the same way, here is a petition they can sign:

https://uspirg.webaction.org/p/dia/action4/common/public/?action_KEY=39314&_ga=2.230873119.161365938.1595804553-1319728744.1595804553
Not on a bet... 

We can not avoid all risk in life... Why not reduce speed limits to 15 mph, that could save lives. Of course that is "reductio ad absurdum", but makes my point.

Yes the Trump administration made mistakes, as well as the previous administrations. The doom and gloom arm wavers warning about future pandemic risks were wrong and ignored until they were right. Now in hindsight they are geniuses, thats how it works in life. Pandemics are one of multiple such potential crisis we need to worry about. Any student of history has seen these prognosticators emerge from the shadows to take credit, after the fact.

I appreciate your informed opinion. Just because I don't embrace it in whole, doesn't mean I don't agree with parts. We are far smarter now than we were even a few months ago...  I recall the criticism and name calling when President Trump imposed travel restrictions from China.

Quote from: Joe Biden
On the day the White House announced the travel restrictions, Biden did say at a campaign event in Iowa that as the pandemic unfolds, Americans “need to have a president who they can trust what he says about it, that he is going to act rationally about it.” He added, “This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia – hysterical xenophobia – and fearmongering to lead the way instead of science.”
---
On April 3, Biden’s campaign said Biden supported Trump’s decision to impose travel restrictions on China.

Of course they reversed themselves when it turned out his action was correct.
   
I am not as smart as you, but still remain optimistic that we (the vast majority of us) will survive this.

JR

PS: Do you guys realize how exhausting this is? Sisyphus only had one rock to roll back up the hill...  :o
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 27, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
It's pretty obvious to most thoughtful people that POTUS Pants-on-Fire really screwed the pooch on his pandemic response. Though I won't live to see history's take on it I feel confident he'll go down as one of the worst.

Now when there is a need to try to do it over again, to salvage as much as possible, it's not going to happen again because there is no competent leadership. We don't need to drive 15mph, but it's wise to slow down when going through a construction zone with the road torn up.

The doom and gloom pandemic warners will be right again in the future - hindsight has nothing to do with it. Maybe learning from this will make the world better prepared (but history says not.)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 27, 2020, 04:24:05 PM
It's pretty obvious to most thoughtful people that POTUS Pants-on-Fire really screwed the pooch on his pandemic response. Though I won't live to see history's take on it I feel confident he'll go down as one of the worst.
perhaps we can make a side bet, and settle up at our comet watching party in 7,000 years, (I'll bring the beer). 8)
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Now when there is a need to try to do it over again, to salvage as much as possible, it's not going to happen again because there is no competent leadership. We don't need to drive 15mph, but it's wise to slow down when going through a construction zone with the road torn up.

The doom and gloom pandemic warners will be right again in the future - hindsight has nothing to do with it. Maybe learning from this will make the world better prepared (but history says not.)
As the saying goes history doesn't perfectly repeat, but it often rhymes.

I don't see medical practice from your perspective but I perceive some movement (adaption) that may make us better prepared for the next time, and there will always be a next time. That said I still have some of my same criticisms about doctors not using expert computer system capabilities.

I remain optimistic about far UVc, and much quicker more effective vaccines and mitigating treatments, but these will not help us that much this time. I don't expect to be around for the next time, but some of you guys will.

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: living sounds on July 27, 2020, 04:45:27 PM

PS: Do you guys realize how exhausting this is? Sisyphus only had one rock to roll back up the hill...  :o

That's not what is exhausting these days... Have another guess.  ;)
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 27, 2020, 08:45:05 PM
perhaps we can make a side bet, and settle up at our comet watching party in 7,000 years, (I'll bring the beer).
JR
Yeah, we can laugh about how the pandemic was just a little blip when compared to the asteroid that wiped out most of the world's population (but it needed a reset by then anyway.)   :D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 27, 2020, 09:56:42 PM
Yeah, we can laugh about how the pandemic was just a little blip when compared to the asteroid that wiped out most of the world's population (but it needed a reset by then anyway.)   :D
That last big asteroid was a biotch for the dinosaur population.. 60+ million years ago... Next time we'll send up Bruce Willis. I think he is still working.   ;D

That comet is supposed to miss us again next time in 7,000 years.  NASA is working on intercepting comets, I guess training for the big un... (but aren't comets just frozen water? ) I guess it could still do some damage if it has enough mass, think a frozen snowball traveling thousands of miles per hour.   :o

JR
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: crazydoc on July 28, 2020, 05:12:38 PM
Over to politics
PS: Gates is a target for numerous conspiracy theories but his comments sounded reasonable to me.
The pandemic has really brought out the conspiracy loonies - before this I had no idea how  unable to reason so many Americans are - reminds me of George Carlin's take on religion.

Went to Walmart today - spoke to the "Health Ambassador" out front, a grey haired woman who said probably only 10% aren't wearing masks. She has no authority to require masks (had some in her hand to give out if requested) and said the police told her they wouldn't come to enforce it. So over a couple of months that store has gone from 10% to 90% with masks - that's pretty good for this republican stronghold - maybe there's hope.

As we were speaking several folks without masks walked into the store - I remarked to her in  loud voice that not wearing a mask just meant you were stupid. (Of course I made sure they were decrepit old folks before I said that.)   ;D
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: L´Andratté on July 28, 2020, 06:31:59 PM
To me especially stupid looking are those wearing a mask with their nose poking out :o
 
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: JohnRoberts on July 29, 2020, 11:11:50 AM
Over to politicsThe pandemic has really brought out the conspiracy loonies - before this I had no idea how  unable to reason so many Americans are - reminds me of George Carlin's take on religion.
Comedians can hide a lot of truth in their comedy...

Human decision making is not always rational and logical, so conspiracies are an attractive way to explain complex issues. The human brain likes to think it understands stuff it doesn't.
Quote
Went to Walmart today - spoke to the "Health Ambassador" out front, a grey haired woman who said probably only 10% aren't wearing masks. She has no authority to require masks (had some in her hand to give out if requested) and said the police told her they wouldn't come to enforce it. So over a couple of months that store has gone from 10% to 90% with masks - that's pretty good for this republican stronghold - maybe there's hope.

As we were speaking several folks without masks walked into the store - I remarked to her in  loud voice that not wearing a mask just meant you were stupid. (Of course I made sure they were decrepit old folks before I said that.)   ;D

Not sure where to put this one...

I am not a fan of government getting too involved in private industry but the administration is using a COVID emergency authority to set up Kodak (the obsolete film company) to make supplies for manufacture of generic drugs. This kind of makes long term sense since so much of our drug supply comes from offshore. This is reminiscent of how the last administration anointed industrial winners with solar energy loan guarantees (>$500M to Solyndra who went bankrupt by 2011).

I am uncomfortable with the government getting too involved in drug manufacturing, but am equally uncomfortable with so little domestic manufacturing of key ingredients. Especially as we enter a more contentious relationship with China, who could easily use this for leverage as they have in the past with rare earth elements and more.

JR

PS: OK for TMI about generics... I benefit from inexpensive generics (like so many). Because of low thyroid output I take a synthetic supplement (Synthroid?). I recall after the hurricane trashed PR, my prescription price doubled until they got their factories back on line.   Because of cartilage damage I have arthritis in one knee... for years I have been taking over the counter NSAIDs to manage inflammation. I buy generic naproxen sodium as cheaper than Aleve, with no problem but several weeks ago my knee told me the NSAID stopped working. I returned to using the branded Aleve and my knee quieted down.  Just to confirm that I wasn't imagining things, I started using that old stash of generic naproxen when the Aleve ran out, and my knee noticed. I am now on day two of using a new batch of generic naproxen and so far, knock on wood, my knee is cool. I notice the different generic batches have different imprint marking on the caplets so likely a different generic manufacturer but both merchandised by Walmart under their house brand.
Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: hodad on July 29, 2020, 11:23:48 AM
Perennial candidate for Dumbest Person in Congress tests positive for COVID:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/29/louis-gohmert-who-refused-to-wear-a-mask-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-386076 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/29/louis-gohmert-who-refused-to-wear-a-mask-tests-positive-for-coronavirus-386076)

Title: Re: covid politics
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on July 29, 2020, 03:28:45 PM

I am not a fan of government get