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Project Specific Discussions => Magnetics => Topic started by: mjrippe on March 31, 2020, 03:07:42 PM

Title: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: mjrippe on March 31, 2020, 03:07:42 PM
Picked this one up and found little info about it.  Internet claims it is an input like the XT-2 and XT-3.  My thinking is that it's an output, due to larger size and knowing how they did things back then.  Photographed with my measurements and an XT-3 for size reference.
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: EmRR on March 31, 2020, 04:13:55 PM
Hmm.  1-9 as same winding is unusual labeling. 
414DCR definitely doesn't look like 60K at a glance. 
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: mjrippe on March 31, 2020, 05:10:52 PM
Yeah, 1-9 is same as the XT-2 and 3 but an odd choice for sure.  The 60k was from some internet dude who was probably quoting the XT-2 spec and ASSuming the 10 was the same. Like I said, I suspect it is an OPT so more like 10k.
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: rackmonkey on April 06, 2020, 03:12:08 AM
What’s the turns ratio?
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: ruffrecords on April 06, 2020, 04:42:03 AM
What’s the turns ratio?

From the 12.7mH of the 50 ohm winding and the 102H of the secondary the inductance ratio is about 8500 to 1 so the turn ratio is the square root of this which is close to 92:1.  If the 12.7mH primary is indeed 50 ohms them reflected to the secondary it is about 47K which is not oo far from 60K.

In conclusion I think it is most likely an input transformer. It is perhaps bigger than expected because they must have used thicker the usual wire for the secondary to keep the dcr down.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: mjrippe on April 06, 2020, 12:51:37 PM
Ugh, my bad folks.  Mislabeled that measurement as pin 8 to pin 5, it was actually 8-3.  Here is a fresh pic with measurements of all windings.  No 60Hz measurement on the secondary because my Sencore does not go over 10H.
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: mjrippe on April 06, 2020, 12:59:13 PM
So following Ian's math, I get 8024:1 ratio.  Square root is 89.6.  I am guessing a 600 ohm winding, so 53.7k Ohms.  Looks like input after all!
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: ruffrecords on April 06, 2020, 05:33:19 PM
The primary dcrs and inductances don't seem to match up. You would expect greatest dcr to correspond with greatest dcr but they do not.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: rackmonkey on April 06, 2020, 06:07:44 PM
The primary dcrs and inductances don't seem to match up. You would expect greatest dcr to correspond with greatest dcr but they do not.

and 414 ohms seems way low for a ~60k nominal secondary.  Would normally expect something in the mid thousands, typically around 3.5k - 6.5k
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: ruffrecords on April 06, 2020, 06:23:40 PM
and 414 ohms seems way low for a ~60k nominal secondary.  Would normally expect something in the mid thousands, typically around 3.5k - 6.5k

If you take the 154mH as the 300 ohm winding and  the secondary inductance as  102H then the impedance ratio is about 662 so the secondary impedance would be closer to 20K than 60K and the ratio not far from 25:1.

Cheers

ian
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: EmRR on April 06, 2020, 06:51:56 PM
and 414 ohms seems way low for a ~60k nominal secondary.  Would normally expect something in the mid thousands, typically around 3.5k - 6.5k

Again, yeah.  More likely to see in a modern transformer versus an old one, but still rare.  I'm usually suspicious if I see less than 1K5, what with the usual (PRR) rule of roughly 10% for DCR versus Ω. 

Bench test for level into a hi-Z DI would be my next test, see what it really delivers, out versus in. 

Then there's the other direction seen in some Western Electric, Langevin, and RCA, of really high DCR, like up to 75% of rated Ω.  I still haven't found anything informative about that design decision. 
Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: rackmonkey on April 06, 2020, 10:55:59 PM
Yeah, Doug. 1.5k is a better ballpark reference for the lower end of the DCR range.

For reference, I pulled a few off the shelf that were in easy reach in the closet. All mic or line to grid:

Newcomb TR-100: _________________________________________3.199k ohms
UTC P-16 (O-1):____________________________________________ 1.989k ohms
Thordarson T-50644 (K-7120744) from GE 4BA-1F: _____6.471k ohms
Triad 2426 (custom unit from the 50s or 60s): ____________5.932k ohms
Chicago BI-1: _______________________________________________1.343k ohms
RCA XT-2746 from BA-2A: ________________________________4.631k ohms
RCA XT-2874A from BA-3C:______________________________ 2.936k ohms

Title: Re: Harman Kardon XT-10 Diagram and Specs
Post by: mjrippe on April 07, 2020, 02:32:14 AM
The primary dcrs and inductances don't seem to match up. You would expect greatest dcr to correspond with greatest dcr but they do not.

Cheers

Ian

I know you meant dcr-inductance there, and that confused me as well.  Maybe I am mis-measuring something.  Maybe I should send it to CJ!  Where is he lately?