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General Discussions => Drawing Board => Topic started by: RSRecords on July 26, 2020, 07:54:14 PM

Title: SMPSU
Post by: RSRecords on July 26, 2020, 07:54:14 PM
Trying to put together a +24 and a 48v supply. I’ve been wanting to use a smps for sometime but have been hesitant. I know it’s totally doable and has been done for many years. I just don’t understand them as well as a linear design.
Anyway, I’m looking at using a 2.1amp GLc50-24 since I have one already and I know  API use them in some of their 500 series supplies.https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/373/sl%20power_glc50_ds-1203484.pdf  (https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/373/sl%20power_glc50_ds-1203484.pdf)

Any advice on filtering? I’m reading about using chokes and inductors but not sure where to start.

I haven’t decided on what 48v supply for phantom yet. So open to any recommendations.

Btw it’s for 8 channels of electrodyne preamps and line amps.

Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: ruffrecords on July 27, 2020, 02:58:52 AM
have you noticed in their spec sheet how the ripple in mV is exactly ten times the output voltage?

There are several other recent threads here covering SMPS filtering options. Should be worth a search.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on July 27, 2020, 04:50:18 PM
Trying to put together a +24 and a 48v supply. I’ve been wanting to use a smps for sometime but have been hesitant. I know it’s totally doable and has been done for many years. I just don’t understand them as well as a linear design.
Anyway, I’m looking at using a 2.1amp GLc50-24 since I have one already and I know  API use them in some of their 500 series supplies.https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/373/sl%20power_glc50_ds-1203484.pdf  (https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/373/sl%20power_glc50_ds-1203484.pdf)

Any advice on filtering? I’m reading about using chokes and inductors but not sure where to start.
I'm not familiar with this particular SMPS, since I've used only SunPower and XP power, but I found they are very easy to filter with an additional CLC filter. The first C is determined by the datasheet, in my case 100uF, then the inductor is a 10mm 12uH, followed by two 470uF, that is not Low-ESR. The units powerd by them are dead quiet.

Quote
I haven’t decided on what 48v supply for phantom yet. So open to any recommendations.
I would not hesitate to recommend one the XP power; there's a 5W and a 10W. You're probably aware that smps should not be underloaded, so teh 5W is probably the best bet for 8 channels. You'll have to load the smps with a resistor that draws about 2W. A 1.2K 5W resistor and an LED drawing another 20mA should do.


Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: Dualflip on July 27, 2020, 07:16:42 PM
Why bother with a SMPS and extra filtering when you can have this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CONDOR-HC24-2-4-A-POWER-SUPPLY-24V-2-4A/352974066189?epid=153449636&hash=item522ee4d20d:g:2~sAAOSwmbReSe-a (https://www.ebay.com/itm/CONDOR-HC24-2-4-A-POWER-SUPPLY-24V-2-4A/352974066189?epid=153449636&hash=item522ee4d20d:g:2~sAAOSwmbReSe-a)

and this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Condor-HD48-3-A-Power-Supply-Board-48v-DC-Output-30-Day-Warranty/303451909858?hash=item46a724aee2:g:vWQAAOSwaENd1qco (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Condor-HD48-3-A-Power-Supply-Board-48v-DC-Output-30-Day-Warranty/303451909858?hash=item46a724aee2:g:vWQAAOSwaENd1qco)

3Amps is complete overkill for a phantom power supply, but hey, its the cheapest I could find.

If space is an issue and you want something new, then, do go SMPS
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/XP-Power/FCS60US24?qs=w%2Fv1CP2dgqr4Squ%252Bi2WSZg== (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/XP-Power/FCS60US24?qs=w%2Fv1CP2dgqr4Squ%252Bi2WSZg==)
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: ruffrecords on July 29, 2020, 06:08:26 PM
I'm not familiar with this particular SMPS, since I've used only SunPower and XP power, but I found they are very easy to filter with an additional CLC filter. The first C is determined by the datasheet, in my case 100uF, then the inductor is a 10mm 12uH, followed by two 470uF, that is not Low-ESR. The units powerd by them are dead quiet.
 I would not hesitate to recommend one the XP power; there's a 5W and a 10W. You're probably aware that smps should not be underloaded, so teh 5W is probably the best bet for 8 channels. You'll have to load the smps with a resistor that draws about 2W. A 1.2K 5W resistor and an LED drawing another 20mA should do.
Would this be the ECE05US48 model?

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on July 29, 2020, 06:51:51 PM
Would this be the ECE05US48 model?

Cheers

Ian
I was thinking of the VCE05US48. It's hard to tell the differences, apart from the obvious current rating, 100mA for the VCE, 125mA for the ECE.
The 10W would the VCE10US48.
I suspect the V series is cheaper than the E.

RS have a line of PC mount smps that are extremely cheap; I've ordered a pair of LDE15-24 for a new project. The verdict won't be before end of August though.
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: RSRecords on July 30, 2020, 11:49:15 PM
Thanks all! I wasn't getting response notices so I missed them.
I think I'm going to try the switching supplies just to check it out. I actually have a 4 amp power one if I need. Its just so heavy and overkill.


I think I'll use this one (and the 48v) https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/209-FCS60US24 (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/209-FCS60US24)

The first C is determined by the datasheet, in my case 100uF, then the inductor is a 10mm 12uH, followed by two 470uF, that is not Low-ESR. The units powerd by them are dead quiet.

I was looking through the data sheets and I didn't see anything about 100uf. Is that already on the supply?
Also, why high ESR caps? Low ESR is better for filtering right?

Something like this? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/80-EST477M100AN5AA (https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/80-EST477M100AN5AA)

Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on July 31, 2020, 12:48:22 AM
I was looking through the data sheets and I didn't see anything about 100uf. Is that already on the supply?
You're correct. This "Maximum capacitive load" parameter is not always spec'd? Sometimes you have to find out what works. With too high a capacitive load, the smps wouldn't start or hiccup.

[/quote] Also, why high ESR caps? Low ESR is better for filtering right? [/quote] For about the same reason. Starting is more difficult on a low-ESR type.

You must be aware also that a smps should always deliver current, at least 1/10th of its nominal current. If not, it may probably go into hiccup mode.
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: ruffrecords on July 31, 2020, 04:30:53 AM
I was thinking of the VCE05US48. It's hard to tell the differences, apart from the obvious current rating, 100mA for the VCE, 125mA for the ECE.
The 10W would the VCE10US48.
I suspect the V series is cheaper than the E.

RS have a line of PC mount smps that are extremely cheap; I've ordered a pair of LDE15-24 for a new project. The verdict won't be before end of August though.

I ordered one of the ECE05US48 to try. I can't get over how small these are; just one inch square. I will check out the RS ones you mentioned.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on July 31, 2020, 05:07:58 AM
Did I mention that I have used these successfully?
https://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/0.html?spm=a2g0s.9042647.0.0.295036faAGyutA&orderId=8017457909997913&productId=4000832991856
I tried the 15V versions for powering the rails directly. It just was too noisy.
Then I used the 24V version with CLC filters and linear regulators (LM317/337) and it is perfect, as clean as the former linear PSU. With three of those, I get +/- 18V audio rails plus a 24V ancillary rail for half the cost of the toroidal xfmr!
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: ruffrecords on July 31, 2020, 08:22:31 AM
For some reason I get page not found when I follow the link you posted.

CLC  output filters seem to be the way to go.

Cheers

ian
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: squarewave on July 31, 2020, 10:42:24 AM
I ordered one of the ECE05US48 to try.
Mmmm, these look nice!
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on July 31, 2020, 12:29:57 PM
For some reason I get page not found when I follow the link you posted.
Well, I do,n't know why, it directs me to the Ali Express russian site. Here's the link to the french site (I hope...)
https://fr.aliexpress.com/af/Green-AC%25252dDC-Precision-Buck-Converter-AC.html?d=y&origin=n&SearchText=Green+AC-DC+Precision+Buck+Converter+AC&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20200731082835
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: ruffrecords on July 31, 2020, 12:52:08 PM
Well, I do,n't know why, it directs me to the Ali Express russian site. Here's the link to the french site (I hope...)
https://fr.aliexpress.com/af/Green-AC%25252dDC-Precision-Buck-Converter-AC.html?d=y&origin=n&SearchText=Green+AC-DC+Precision+Buck+Converter+AC&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20200731082835
That one worked fine.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: scott2000 on July 31, 2020, 05:20:18 PM
Why do I have that same feeling of when I used to try to keep up with the new software plug ins?...lol
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: RSRecords on July 31, 2020, 05:39:55 PM
Why do I have that same feeling of when I used to try to keep up with the new software plug ins?...lol

Right, but I guess eventually you've got to go 64 bit aax!

 Most companies are doing SMPS with great success (manley, crane song, Atomic, etc..) so it would behoove me to learn something about the way integrate. Plus they are smaller and more efficient. 
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: Matador on August 01, 2020, 12:29:20 AM
Did I mention that I have used these successfully?
https://www.aliexpress.com/snapshot/0.html?spm=a2g0s.9042647.0.0.295036faAGyutA&orderId=8017457909997913&productId=4000832991856
I get +/- 18V audio rails plus a 24V ancillary rail for half the cost of the toroidal xfmr!
How did you get the negative rail?  Do they sell one, or did you do something like connecting the positive output to 0V, and take the negative output from the "0V" of the module?
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on August 01, 2020, 02:28:34 AM
did you do something like connecting the positive output to 0V, and take the negative output from the "0V" of the module?
That's correct. These smps have floating outputs, you can connect them any way you like. E.g. you can stack two of them for 48V.
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 01, 2020, 08:49:08 AM
At Peavey we started using switching PS inside larger mixers last century. We didn't buy OEM power blocks but just rolled our own. For portable mixers the benefits of less size and weight (built inside, not external) are obvious, but the lower mains frequency hum field was an added bonus.

JR 
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on August 01, 2020, 10:26:36 AM
Building high-power smps is enough to occupy a whole lifetime. I'm not that patient.
I know the guys at Powersoft. They spent their evenings at uni making sm power amps and PS. One was designing, the other replaced the exploded FET's!  ;D
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 01, 2020, 12:01:48 PM
Building high-power smps is enough to occupy a whole lifetime. I'm not that patient.
I know the guys at Powersoft. They spent their evenings at uni making sm power amps and PS. One was designing, the other replaced the exploded FET's!  ;D
At Peavey we had a digital group with years (decades) of experience designing class D amplifiers while high power switching device technology was not quite up to that task back a few decades ago, like it is now. Switching PS are relatively easier, but not trivial. Chip makers often have detailed application notes including preferred PCB layouts, but I agree it is not worth the trouble for onesy-twosey projects.

Agreed for one-offs or as a small manufacturer using off the shelf OEM solutions makes sense. Back a couple decades ago (consulting after I quit Peavey) I inherited supporting a low volume DSP product using a custom switching supply. They cleverly tried to get two regulated rails from one switcher using a transformer. I killed a lot of brain cells trying to make that transformer quiet (it buzzed like an angry hornet).  I finally used the Gordian knot solution, simplifying the design to just a single regulated switching rail, and added a common pass regulator for the lower voltage rail. The small loss in efficiency was well worth it for the dead silence gained by using a cheap standard off the shelf inductor. I never even found a second source for the obscure transformer that buzzed.  (That was the same switcher that I piggy backed a small cap value, HF cap doubler/tripler to make a 48V phantom rail).

JR 
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: Matador on August 01, 2020, 01:35:19 PM
That's correct. These smps have floating outputs, you can connect them any way you like. E.g. you can stack two of them for 48V.
This implies a "flyback buck" topology.  Did it come with a schematic?  Or can you glean which chipset it's based on?

I'm wondering if there are standard feedback resistors that could be removed/changed to give a 48V output directly (provided the transformer can handle it).
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 01, 2020, 02:00:42 PM
This implies a "flyback buck" topology.  Did it come with a schematic?  Or can you glean which chipset it's based on?

I'm wondering if there are standard feedback resistors that could be removed/changed to give a 48V output directly (provided the transformer can handle it).
If you can see the components  (not potted), search out the switching IC manufacturer for application notes. They should advise the capability of the design while 48V may require higher voltage switching devices and capacitors.

JR
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: moamps on August 01, 2020, 04:58:24 PM
This implies a "flyback buck" topology.  Did it come with a schematic?  Or can you glean which chipset it's based on?
I'm wondering if there are standard feedback resistors that could be removed/changed to give a 48V output directly (provided the transformer can handle it).
IMO, it is based on standard TL431 IC as reference, so output voltage can be changed by changing resistors around it. But, it most probably cannot be changed 200%,  a different transformer's ratio is needed to achieve that (and some other parts should be changed).  Also, if it works as negative voltage source, one blue capacitor should be relocated.
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on August 02, 2020, 12:26:08 AM
IMO, it is based on standard TL431 IC as reference, so output voltage can be changed by changing resistors around it.
The chip is AP8012H. The reference is integrated.

Quote
But, it most probably cannot be changed 200%,  a different transformer's ratio is needed to achieve that (and some other parts should be changed). 
  Indeed. Typically smps can be trimmed by about 10%. Thaat's how I got my +/-15V rails for a 51X rack with nominal 15V smps.

Quote
Also, if it works as negative voltage source, one blue capacitor should be relocated.
I believe you mean the CY capacitor between Neutral and ground of the secondary side...?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiStcmK0fvqAhVB8BQKHTa_B_QQFjAWegQICRAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fclub.szlcsc.com%2Farticle%2FdownFile_756A0A8D8617647C.html&usg=AOvVaw1BVgt9o9M499xTN_oMcQrV
I have only academic knowledge of smps, never designed one, I always wondered what role exactly this cap plays. I believe it has to do with preventing the secondary side to emit RFI. BTW, any recent designs omit this cap.
It makes sense if the equipment it powers is not grounded.
But once the smps is integrated in a class 1 unit this becomes irrelevant since there is already a low impedance connection between "ground" and earth.
So instead of trying to move the CY cap, I would maybe just cross-connect the L and N inputs to the negative supply, but anyway I don't see how it could make a significant difference...
You seem to have a better understanding of these, so please elaborate.
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: ruffrecords on August 02, 2020, 03:54:38 AM
I believe you mean the CY capacitor between Neutral and ground of the secondary side..
I have only academic knowledge of smps, never designed one, I always wondered what role exactly this cap plays. I believe it has to do with preventing the secondary side to emit RFI. BTW, any recent designs omit this cap.
I also have never designed one but I recall reading an article which said this cap is there to reduce/prevent common mode noise appearing on the output.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: moamps on August 02, 2020, 04:41:08 AM
The chip is AP8012H. The reference is integrated.
The voltage reference is U3 (TL431).
Quote
I believe you mean the CY capacitor between Neutral and ground of the secondary side...?
Yes.
Quote
I have only academic knowledge of smps, never designed one, I always wondered what role exactly this cap plays. I believe it has to do with preventing the secondary side to emit RFI. BTW, any recent designs omit this cap.
It makes sense if the equipment it powers is not grounded.
It is connected usually between primary and secondary 0V reference, it helps to lower jitter in control signal and overall lower RFI.  If you leave it in -V power supply as is, it can dump garbage in your -V line.
Quote
But once the smps is integrated in a class 1 unit this becomes irrelevant since there is already a low impedance connection between "ground" and earth.
So instead of trying to move the CY cap, I would maybe just cross-connect the L and N inputs to the negative supply, but anyway I don't see how it could make a significant difference...
I don't follow you here, you can't connect 0V of primary side to safety earth; in class1 environment you can add Y caps to earth.
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: moamps on August 02, 2020, 04:55:03 AM
I found one ok explanation here:
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/216959/what-does-the-y-capacitor-in-a-smps-do

"Switched mode power supplies use what is known as a "flyback converter" to provide voltage conversion and galvanic isolation. A core component of this converter is a high frequency transformer.

Practical transformers have some stray capacitance between primary and secondary windings. This capacitance interacts with the switching operation of the converter. If there is no other connection between input and output this will result in a high frequency voltage between the output and input.

This is really bad from an EMC perspective. The cables from the power brick are now essentially acting as an antenna transmitting the high frequency generated by the switching process.

To suppress the high frequency common mode is is necessary to put capacitors between the input and output side of the power supply with a capacitance substantially higher than the capacitance in the flyback transformer. This effectively shorts out the high frequency and prevents it escaping from the device.

When desinging a class 2 (unearthed) PSU we have no choice but to connect these capacitors to the input "live" and/or "neutral". Since most of the world doesn't enforce polarity on unearthed sockets we have to assume that either or both of the "live" and "neutral" terminals may be at a sinificant voltage relative to earth and we usually end up with a symmetrical design as a "least bad option". That is why if you measure the output of a class 2 PSU relative to mains earth with a high impedance meter you will usually see around half the mains voltage.

That means on a class 2 PSU we have a difficult tradeoff between safety and EMC. Making the capacitors bigger improves EMC but also results in higher "touch current" (the current that will flow through someone or something who touches the output of the PSU and mains earth). This tradeoff becomes more problematic as the PSU gets bigger (and hence the stray capacitance in the transformer gets bigger).

On a class 1 (earthed) PSU we can use the mains earth as a barrier between input and output either by connecting the output to mains earth (as is common in desktop PC PSUs) or by using two capacitors, one from the output to mains earth and one from mains earth to the input (this is what most laptop power bricks do). This avoids the touch current problem while still providing a high frequency path to control EMC.

Short circuit failure of these capacitors would be very bad. In a class 1 PSU failure of the capacitor between the mains supply and mains earth would mean a short to earth, (equivalent to a failure of "basic" insulation). This is bad but if the earthing system is functional it shouldn't be a major direct hazard to users. In a class 2 PSU a failure of the capacitor is much worse, it would mean a direct and serious safety hazard to the user (equivilent to a failure or "double" or "reinforced" insulation). To prevent hazards to the user the capacitors must be designed so that short circuit failure is very unlikely.

So special capacitors are used for this purpose. These capacitors are known as "Y capacitors" (X capacitors on the other hand are used between mains live and mains neutral). There are two main subtypes of "Y capacitor", "Y1" and "Y2" (with Y1 being the higher rated type). In general Y1 capacitors are used in class 2 equipment while Y2 capacitors are used in class 1 equipment."
Title: Re: SMPSU
Post by: abbey road d enfer on August 02, 2020, 05:14:11 AM
If you leave it in -V power supply as is, it can dump garbage in your -V line.
I would have thought that the impedance of the output at EMI frequencies would be extremely low, so it wouldn't really matter. In practice, as far as I can see, it doesn't. If I was making medical instrumentation, taht would be different maybe.

Quote
I don't follow you here, you can't connect 0V of primary side to safety earth
I didn't suggest that; what I meant is the output is connected to the audio "ground", which is in turn earthed, so the CY cap is actually bypassed by a hard link.
As to this smps used as a negative supply, the hard link between its positive output and ground is dominant over the CY cap, IMO.
Indeed, class 2 equipment is another story.

EDIT: Actually, reading the whole thread is very enlightening.
"A new engineering tradeoff for the use of Y capacitors has emerged within the last decade or so, due to NEC (US National Electric Code) requirements for use of GFCI and AFCI circuit breakers. "

"In a class 1 (earthed) PSU we can use the mains earth as a barrier between input and output either by connecting the output to mains earth (as is common in desktop PC PSUs) or by using two capacitors, one from the output to mains earth and one from mains earth to the input (this is what most laptop power bricks do). "

I understand this as a proper justification to simply getting rid of the CY caps, since the secondary sides are properly earthed.
I see further justification in the app notes of Power Integration. Their non-isolated PS have no CY cap, which makes sense to me.