GroupDIY

General Discussions => Brewery => Topic started by: bluebird on August 01, 2020, 01:05:29 AM

Title: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: bluebird on August 01, 2020, 01:05:29 AM
I think we have to start looking at each other as a family more than we have been. Dysfunctional of course. But a family never the less.

Special kids, crazy uncles, religious moms, loud cousins... The whole shebang in this virtual BBQ.  We are all good people with a diverse experience set that makes for very interesting conversation. That's why we all come here. The Brewery is especially tight nit. Lets not let our political views make us sick. We can do this. We can have a conversation and still be kind and understanding. Its really hard sometimes but its important we try as hard as we can.

I'd like to vote scott2000 as member of the year for being kind and open to other opinions while holding true to his own principals. Nobody's perfect but a good example to follow.

I know these things are important to people and the urge to "fight for whats right" is strong, but this is a DIY electronics forum and nothing is going to happen after the "fight" except for hurt feelings and angry people. No policy changes, no hearts and minds won over, no justice. Just a bunch of grumbling.  So why fight so hard?

Now to all my liberal brethren, again, no need to be aggressive when discussing politics, not one bit. The facts are well represented here and its obvious president Trump is not going to be in office after November. Anyone can come back and quote me if I'm wrong after the election, but the countries demographics are changing and people are fired up. There's too much energy and momentum to have what happened in 2016 happen again. Remember president Trump lost the popular vote and nobody was trying. There was complacency like never before, and now the opposite is true. It won't even be close. So relax.

The conservatives and independents should be able to express they're political opinions and not get trampled or yelled at. Without the opposing viewpoints we would have a boring echo chamber. A lot of the people with conservative viewpoints have bowed out and disappeared. 
A while back political discussions all but petered out. I was a bummer because I missed being informed by both sides.
Now its on again, but a little lopsided.

It would be nice if everyone felt safe here, and oddly enough, I would like to see more conservative opinions without all the vitriol...

And if all that sounds too snowflaky or mushy or whatever, so be it. I had to say it.

Keep talking! Keep posting! scott2000 for president!

-ian
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: gevermil on August 01, 2020, 05:51:48 AM
nice post
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: gyraf on August 01, 2020, 08:40:03 AM
Good one. Thanks.

I'd vote for him
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 01, 2020, 09:18:59 AM
A nice sentiment....

Besides Scott I think we have a remarkable group here...

JR
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: 80hinhiding on August 01, 2020, 11:01:37 AM
I think we have to start looking at each other as a family more than we have been. Dysfunctional of course. But a family never the less.

Now to all my liberal brethren, again, no need to be aggressive when discussing politics, not one bit. The facts are well represented here and its obvious president Trump is not going to be in office after November. Anyone can come back and quote me if I'm wrong after the election, but the countries demographics are changing and people are fired up. There's too much energy and momentum to have what happened in 2016 happen again. Remember president Trump lost the popular vote and nobody was trying. There was complacency like never before, and now the opposite is true. It won't even be close. So relax.

-ian

Do NOT underestimate what could happen on election day.  Very clever people are shouting from the rooftops (i.e. Stacey Abrams, President Obama) over the importance over this vote and Bluebird says "just relax."  Tell that to people being shot in the face with 'rubber' or real bullets.  Over confidence is what happened the last time around.  Also, do not underestimate the power of evil.  There are still a lot of followers of the current US President.

The truth of the matter is, this forum is not a family.  It's far from it.  It's not even a bunch of good friends.  It's a bunch of people at keyboards who think they vaguely know one another.  Sure, some people probably know each other in person, but that's the exception.  Maybe some have developed a rapport because of sharing of knowledge, anecdotes, or helped one another with a PCB.  That's great, that's lovely.  Maybe you even feel some affection for the people at the other end of the keyboard, which is normal.  IN MY OPINION, it's not appropriate to debate family members or coworkers, or contemporaries, or whatever you want to call them, over certain topics.  By not appropriate, I mean, if you hope to get along.

I think the only way for this forum to maintain a positive, and productive way forward is to ban political and religious debates. +1 if you agree.

You can easily be friends or Internet friends with someone over common interest, or even over differing views about something like school curriculum, but once you learn they don't mind if kids are detained and separated from their families at the border, things get weird and you don't want to associate, or be associated, with those people.  In fact, you can easily lose respect for those people, and fast.  This is particularly true if you find out there's no way to ever convince those people their views are radical, or downright mean.  Forum member Desol thinks George Floyd's murder was just an accident.  I don't need to know that.. but if I do see something like that being posted, it has to be addressed.  Just like this post.  Everyone should sense the urgency and importance of what is going on, and get out to vote.  If I remember you told Desol he should be quiet.

So, do you want to be complacent, sit back and relax, and let this place (as simple Internet forum) be a haven for negativity, or get everyone back on track around the common interest?

There's no way to have everyone come together as one big happy family... not with politics and religious discussions/arguing.

Politicians are sometimes able to get along even with differing viewpoints, but that's when they're discussing opposing views about sensible things, and strategy planning for more normal times.  Right now though, things are extremely tense and weird because of the current US White House administration, and divisions are more and more evident.  The current US administration has to go!  They are corrupt, and incompetent.  That's a fact, not an opinion.

They're making the world sick and this forum is reflecting it.  They're giving people the okay to be bitter, to be cruel, to lie, to cheat, to oppress, to be racist.  Bringing out the worst in a society, in our world.  That has to be fought back against.

I've always found Scott2000 to be a nice forum member, from what I can tell in his posting anyway.  I know nothing of him outside of a few Internet posts, so I'd be assuming a lot if I said he should be President.

GET OUT AND VOTE.  It's the most important thing you can do.  DO NOT RELAX ABOUT IT.

ps. The Drawing Board is the heart of the GroupDIY forum in my opinion.  People sharing.  People learning about a specific topic.

-A
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: boji on August 01, 2020, 11:13:57 AM
Edit:  For spirit of the op, I'm not going to respond to the directly above, but I want to  ;D

There's saying 'focus on the level of the individual', and showing/acting on behalf of the individual; hats off to you Blue! And Scott, for his embedded kindness.

I do love everyone here, btw. Islands in the stream.

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: 80hinhiding on August 01, 2020, 11:26:40 AM
Edit:  For spirit of the op, I'm not going to respond to the directly above, but I want to  ;D

There's saying 'focus on the level of the individual', and showing/acting on behalf of the individual; hats off to you Blue! And Scott, for his embedded kindness.

I do love everyone here, btw. Islands in the stream.
Feel free.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 01, 2020, 11:54:52 AM
 While I appreciate the sentiment of the OP., I don't thinkI can agree with everything.
But I'm not sure I really care any more.

To be honest,  the illusion of family on here left me a few weeks ago.
Not in the Brewery, but in the Drawing Room,  during a thread on mixers.

I was treated, in my opinion,  very unfairly by John Roberts.
 I was told so by another moderator who had wanted to say something but felt unable to.

That's when I decided I'm done participating in anything worthwhile.

I also find it a bit strange that the person whose political opinions I find most odious (not that anyone isn't entitled to an opinion) is also  a moderator who has the power to be warning people about things said in the Brewery.

Also, if I see someone who expresses an opinion that it's funny when folks are shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, I'm going to say  what I think of that opinion.  And I'm even less inclined to be nicer to that person.

Whatever, I'm probably done here in any meaningfully  anyway,

YFMMV.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: boji on August 01, 2020, 12:23:36 PM
If I may sidestep (but appreciate) your grievance WB, for a moment,  I strongly get the sense if we didn't have a conservative-leaning mod of any stripe, this forum's brewery would have collapsed into a leftist camp so fully as to make conversation uninteresting.

Edit: Brewery is full of open-mindedness and polarizing opinion- which is as the (public) world...was.  For most of the rest of internet public forums, the zombies have already broken past the fence and routed-out free thinking.  Hence why I say we are islands in the stream. It's worth keeping imo, with minimal need for regulation or silencing of forms of speech, so to promote the exchange of ideas.

Edit#2 It fascinates me that people have nearly limitless doors in front of them that they must choose to open or close, and if they find themselves in a room they don't like, the answer is to lock out all people from that room afterwards because they didn't like what was in it.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: mjrippe on August 01, 2020, 12:27:46 PM
Dear Aunts, Uncles, Cousins, Brothers, Sisters, and Grandparents,

In general I steer clear of any political Brewery topic.  Why?  Not because I don't care about politics - I most certainly do.  But because I have spent enough time online (about 40 years at this point, yes really) to know that what bluebird is saying is true here as it is everywhere else.  People who engage in argument by choice sometimes don't know what they are getting into and sometimes cannot emotionally handle the results of a strong counter argument or an unkind personal attack.  People get hurt and hurt each other.  I have no interest in being on either side of that.  So why am I commenting?

I have found this to be the only forum that I regularly visit that really keeps the BS in the Brewery for the most part, so one can avoid it if they want to.  All the other areas are full of kind people helping each other and sharing knowledge and resources freely.  Yes, there are moments of bad behavior (I may have had some myself in my boozing years) but they are either ignored or dealt with by the community.  Rarely have I seen moderator action required for more than a "move this topic" sort of issue. 

There are also folks here who I consider friends or esteemed colleagues, who may have differing opinions from mine on anything from capacitors to capitalism.  I prefer to "keep things professional" and treat everyone the same with the hopes that they are doing likewise.  Again, these are my choices and you are free to do what you please.  I am not trying to convert anyone but rather sharing how I get the most out of this wonderful place.

All my best to all my crazy GDIY family,
Mike Rippe
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: 80hinhiding on August 01, 2020, 12:49:16 PM
Edit: Brewery is full of open-mindedness and polarizing opinion- which is as the (public) world...was.  For most of the rest of internet public forums, the zombies have already broken past the fence and routed-out free thinking.  Hence why I say we are islands in the stream. It's worth keeping imo, with minimal need for regulation or silencing of forms of speech, so to promote the exchange of ideas.

I'll point out again that it was Bluebird just weeks ago who tried to silence Desol.  It seems hypocritical to me for him to make this post today.

+1 if you wish to ban political, and religious debates, and all reference to audio phools, or all poking fun at musicians for wearing floppy hats, or any other thing such as making fun of someone if they like a bit, or a lot of harmonic distortion.  Whether that happens in the Drawing Board, Brewery or elsewhere.. let's get rid of that negativity.

On a personal level, I left and took a break from the forum in mid June 2020.  None of the GDIY "family" reached out to me.  I left in 2018, for over a year.  None of the "family" reached out to me.  This is not how a family or friends operate... and if it is.. man, I had the wrong impression of what friendship is.

I roll the way I roll, and I give credit where it's due.  I've also stayed away from the Brewery as much as possible.

I've been public and outspoken about trying to make this a better forum but I don't think it has made me very popular.

-A
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 01, 2020, 01:10:05 PM
If I may sidestep (but appreciate) your grievance WB, for a moment,  I strongly get the sense if we didn't have a conservative-leaning mod of any stripe, this forum's brewery would have collapsed into a leftist camp so fully as to make conversation uninteresting.
 


It's OK dude, I wasn't needing a response.  Just wanted to say my bit which I have.

My current feelings didn't transpire due to activity in the Brewery anyway,  I'd already dropped my participation in other rooms after being trolled in a couple of audio related threads. 

They can have the floor, I  yield my time...


 
 
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: crazydoc on August 01, 2020, 01:17:46 PM
I just want to thank JR for having this essentially unmoderated forum where I can honestly spew out my likes and dislikes and get things off my chest without any real-world repercussions, and get intelligent, thoughtful feedback. I was banned from another forum for much less inflammatory comments that were considered "political", but I think were mainly an excuse for the mods to exercise their power.

Anyway, I don't do much DIY electronics anymore except guitar wiring, but I enjoy reading all the sh!t here and can't hold any ill will toward cyber-individuals. Keep it up, and thanks again JR.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: boji on August 01, 2020, 01:21:54 PM
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I'll point out again that it was Bluebird just weeks ago who tried to silence Desol. 

We have to risk being wrong to get to places where we aren't wrong. This doesn't happen easily, or very naturally. The natural tendency is to keep to the early side of the Dunning Kruger curve, and think we have nothing to risk, because we know all there is to know about a given thing or position.  The Hegelian dialectic fundamentally lends causality to our attempts to become better thinkers, and in turn, better people. Censure can come from any direction; incidental evidence is no reason to demand it occur generally, as were it made retroactive, you'd be silenced too.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Matador on August 01, 2020, 01:23:15 PM
If anything I agree with both 80hinhiding AND Bluebird (and to a large extent, Winston as well).

I worked with a lot of "conservative" people, in fact, one of my closest co-workers was way right (think "Hillary Clinton eats babies" right), and after a few initial months of jabbing back and forth, I entirely refused to talk politics with him in any capacity.  However after that we had a great working relationship, working closely on many technical projects without issue, and I still consider them a friend to this day (even after blocking him on social media).  When it comes to politics and friendships, some things are better left undiscussed.

The issue (as I see it) is that inevitably we end up debating people's own personal "truths", which is a minefield with only casualties, and no forward progress.  I would never think to debate the existence of God in a church, so why talk politics on the internet?

IMHO, policy should always start with a foundation of "evidence based practice", because that neatly sidesteps "truth" and reframes the issue into one of "What can I do to prove that my hypothesis addresses the problem, even without a rigorous understanding of the underlying dynamics?"  Policy (and politics) should follow in the way of medicine, starting with questions like: what reduces harm?  Does random sampling indicate causality like I think?  How do other modalities treat the symptoms?  Despite not knowing in a large sense how human bodies work, we've made remarkable advances in treating ailments based on these principles.  Nobody in medicine says "Those pills lead to socialism." or "Treatments should afford the opportunity for a cure, not the outcome of a cure."  I would love to debate policy on this level, but there are very few willing (or able) participants, mostly because many policies fail those tests above.

In any case, I've largely concluded that time outside the Brewery is time better spent.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 01, 2020, 01:37:55 PM
While I appreciate the sentiment of the OP., I don't thinkI can agree with everything.
But I'm not sure I really care any more.

To be honest,  the illusion of family on here left me a few weeks ago.
Not in the Brewery, but in the Drawing Room,  during a thread on mixers.

I was treated, in my opinion,  very unfairly by John Roberts.
The thing I like about electronics is that things can be resolved objectively with data and facts. (I won't repost the cartoon about fairness).

I recall that thread and you kept pressing an opinion that in my judgement (based on decades of experience in console design) was not germane to the OPs question. You kept citing a design example that may have been true in isolation but in the context of the OPs situation was swamped by other noise sources, and impractical.
Quote

 I was told so by another moderator who had wanted to say something but felt unable to.
I communicate with the other mods regularly in our administrative area. I am not aware that any are unable to talk to me.

There is no rank or special authority between the sundry mods.  Ethan is in charge, and we just carry out the trash (last night it was russian spam).

We routinely contradict each other publicly wrt technical issues.
Quote
That's when I decided I'm done participating in anything worthwhile.

I also find it a bit strange that the person whose political opinions I find most odious (not that anyone isn't entitled to an opinion) is also  a moderator who has the power to be warning people about things said in the Brewery.
I'm just enforcing forum rules. I made the warning publicly so the entire forum can see that the bad behavior is unacceptable. If bad behavior goes unchecked it will multiply and expand.

Disagreeing with me does not give anyone license to publicly make personal attacks (ad hominem). If anything I bend over backwards to turn the other cheek and only warn people publicly when they finally exhaust my patience.

I have the power to edit/delete comments I don't like ( but I do not do so unless they are egregious violations of forum rules). We haven't kicked anybody off the forum for years, and (s)he was an incorrigible repeat offender.   
Quote
Also, if I see someone who expresses an opinion that it's funny when folks are shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, I'm going to say  what I think of that opinion.  And I'm even less inclined to be nicer to that person.
that doesn't sound very funny to me....

Rubber bullets were first used 50 years ago in Northern Ireland. I recall an incident in Boston after a Red sox victory in 2004  where a pepper spray filled projectile hit a college student in the eye (through into the brain) and killed her.  Within the last year I recall at least one protestor in Hong Kong losing an eye from a rubber bullet. Bean bag rounds fired from shot guns can also cause  brain damage (or death) from direct head shots. Non-lethal munitions are generally not life threatening but unfortunately it can happen. There is a lot of research into non-lethal crowd control. I suspect the popularity of rubber bullets and bean bag rounds is due to low entry cost, and promise of lower lethality. (Those of us old enough recall college student protesters at Kent state killed by National Guard troops firing real bullets.)   
Quote
Whatever, I'm probably done here in any meaningfully  anyway,

YFMMV.
I invite you all to complain to Ethan if you think I am abusing my role as moderator. One forum member actually reported me...( to me  ::) ) claiming I was trolling.  I remember what this place was like before we tightened up enforcement of the rule against personal attack. Political topics here routinely degenerated into the name calling, mud slinging, sh__ storms like we see on most other social media venues.

JR
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 01, 2020, 04:29:07 PM

I recall that thread and you kept pressing an opinion that in my judgement (based on decades of experience in console design) was not germane to the OPs question. 
 

The OP was asking about *exactly*and *specifically*  what my replies addressed.     Nothing more.
I remember you were  intent on plugging your paper from 1980, nothing more.

 
That you remember the thread,   but don't feel the need to address how your behaviour in that thread might have affected another member here (me),  speaks volumes. 
 
So,  as I already said, you've  got the floor now, I yield  my time.


Ciao.  I guess I'm done. 
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: squarewave on August 01, 2020, 04:35:31 PM
I feel strongly that people should be able to talk about whatever they want so I've never said anything but if we're all going to be open and honest, I think the political discussion here has become a big negative. For me E is a thing to do when you want to get away from the noise. So to come here and see people raging about politics is a real drag. I can't help but wonder if people are tuning out because of it.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: boji on August 01, 2020, 05:02:56 PM
Quote
Policy (and politics) should follow in the way of medicine

Interesting analogy worth thinking about.  I completely support the sense that policies should rely on evidence of utility, or evidence of harm and be modified with the intent to achieve an ideal state between language and its effects.

Yet it sounds like you're saying political dialogue is inherently palliative.  ;D  I believe it is all not so, and that you disprove yourself by having anything of political worth to say. What about persuasion, facts, or better modes of sensemaking that are introduced when folks get tired of speaking past one another? We've all come by a political position through some linguistic means.  From out of every 'lost' argument should be reflection, and however subconscious, a shift in language towards better sensemaking. At least this is how I try to engage with the world, and assume a curative path.

Failures to optimally converse where the intent is to explain rather than understand is becoming the default position most everywhere, but I'm still learning about political sides, among so many other things! I like the topic because I am not in an ideal state between language and its effects. Disagreements are the costs I pay, (or sometimes debit another) when seeking to learn something during the phase transition from old thinking to new. Veracity must be tested along the way so we don't slip into fantasy.

However I'm fully guilty of acting more like a messenger than a listener.  In this respect we would all probably be better off if we engaged more like Scott2k in discourse, whatever the topic.

Quote
None of the GDIY "family" reached out to me.
Had I been given cause to via a PM, I would have, despite our lack of personal connection even if it came from someone else. I'm sure many others around here would've done the same.  As it is, most of us live out our days in little opaque bubbles of intent, and to put on a clean pair of pants for the day, is a day successfully met.  But I hope things are looking up for you, truly!
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: TwentyTrees on August 01, 2020, 05:39:28 PM
Ciao.  I guess I'm done.

I'm very sorry to read this. I've been meaning to drop a line to say how much I've enjoyed your posts since you rejoined GDIY, and how much I've appreciated your generosity in sharing your expertise as well as the warmth with which you've done so. It'll be a great loss to the community if you do decide to step away, and I suspect that more people than you may think will be sorry to see you go (though of course you've got to do what's right for you).

"I think we have to start looking at each other as a family more than we have been... It would be nice if everyone felt safe here"

Damn straight! Tone can be so hard to judge without verbal and nonverbal cues to navigate by - even more so when we throw in language and cultural differences as well. It's on all of us to consider how we say things as well as what we say.

That said, in my view this community in the most part does well. It's generally far more civilised than the majority of what I've found online*; and the respect for those who really know their onions (as both JR and WO'B unquestionably do) runs deep. As someone who on a good day can barely tell his onions from his optocouplers I greatly appreciate this, and though I don't post a lot I learn a huge amount from the discussions, debates and differences of perspective. With that in mind I'd invite any and all to tap me on the shoulder and let me know if in my posts I ever come across as anything less than collegiate and respectful.

Thanks Bluebird for bringing this up. GDIY at its best is worth celebrating.



*I do stay out of the overtly political threads though, so I realise my experience may not be your experience.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Ricardus on August 01, 2020, 07:18:11 PM
I always click on the Brewery, but purposely avoid things that will be political. I have been opting to view threads in here that will be more uplifting or funny, mostly because of where I am at emotionally right now.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 01, 2020, 07:31:39 PM
I just want to thank JR for having this essentially unmoderated forum where I can honestly spew out my likes and dislikes and get things off my chest without any real-world repercussions, and get intelligent, thoughtful feedback. I was banned from another forum for much less inflammatory comments that were considered "political", but I think were mainly an excuse for the mods to exercise their power.

Anyway, I don't do much DIY electronics anymore except guitar wiring, but I enjoy reading all the sh!t here and can't hold any ill will toward cyber-individuals. Keep it up, and thanks again JR.
I appreciate the sentiment but I can not take credit for this forum. We all need to thank Ethan, he makes the rules, and he does the heavy lifting to keep the bits flowing (donations welcome).

I am one of several mods who just enforce the existing rules   https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=6650.0 (https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=6650.0)

All it takes is mutual respect and civil discourse. We can talk about any "thing".

JR   

PS: The brewery is the last forum I check, almost anything else is more interesting (except maybe clones). 

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: ruffrecords on August 02, 2020, 05:40:35 AM
I don't think we need the brewery. I cannot think of a single positive aspect of it.

Cheers

IAn
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: moamps on August 02, 2020, 06:40:00 AM
I think we need brewery, but without politics. There are some themes which aren't strictly technical but should be discussed like this one:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=75621.0
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: ruffrecords on August 02, 2020, 07:41:45 AM
I think we need brewery, but without politics. There are some themes which aren't strictly technical but should be discussed like this one:
https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=75621.0

LOL as soon as I posted I thought of a topic that should be in the brewery. Perhaps the brewery should be reserved for any topic directly related to audio electronics so that means no politics, religion, global warming, food, beer etc.

Cheers

Ian
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: rob_gould on August 02, 2020, 07:59:16 AM

I like the food / beer / non-audio chat.  I think every forum which has a healthy 'off topic' section is better off for it.

I am also 'anti' the idea of banning certain topics.  I'm not sure why it's so hard to not click on things that you suspect (or know) are going to annoy or upset you.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: squarewave on August 02, 2020, 10:59:18 AM
I'm not sure why it's so hard to not click on things that you suspect (or know) are going to annoy or upset you.
Exactly. That's really the problem isn't it? It's like click-bait. And even if it's not political, it get's highjacked (like the COVID-19 thread). Try as you might to avoid it, you just can't help but get sucked into it.

With the exception of solicitations and childish behavior, I don't like the idea of banning things. Stackexchange moderators are a bunch of autocratic imperial psychos. They expect every post to be crafted like an encyclopedia entry. There's no debating. Sometimes you need to get into a good argument to learn something new (even if you don't admit it initially and then claim you knew it all along a month later).

A good compromise might be to just move The Brewery into to "The Daily Grind" section. That way, when you click on "Unread Posts", all of The Brewery posts are not in your face like click-bait.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: fazer on August 02, 2020, 12:21:03 PM
Quote
A good compromise might be to just move The Brewery into to "The Daily Grind" section. That way, when you click on "Unread Posts", all of The Brewery posts are not in your face like click-bait.

+1

thanks bluebird and scott2k .   I come here more than any other forum and have learned lessons in many subjects.  This online life is a blessing but also a curse when used the wrong way.   It’s an answer to problems with electronics And fabrication  from so many contributors.  Its also  a place to take personal responsibility for your actions with others.         

Free speech is what makes my  world go round but it’s also the thing that gets me in trouble when I haven’t edited my typing on a reply to a thread.  We have rules of conduct and people are allowed to criticize but in a proper way. Im Still learning what that is.

Things will not  go back to old way of the past even if  trump is gone in 2021,   It’s  a new era.   I can’t control someone else’s actions but I want to do a better job of controlling my own in the forum.   

Winston maybe it’s time to take a break from your computer.  I remember you stating you were inside your house and had only left the house 3 times in 3 months in a recent post.   It made me think about you and worried about you.   I’ve enjoyed you’re insight on preamps and stories of the recording business as well as performers you’ve know.   I’ve seen podcast that people have taken one month break from media and online activity.   It’s a detox.   God knows I need it .  I just need to do it.   All I know is you disappeared in the past and I was glad to see you make amends and come back. I would miss your thoughts and help on many topics.    Currently I’m avoiding some of those topics and doing better because of it.   
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: madswitcher on August 02, 2020, 12:32:23 PM
Having looked over the ‘mixer’ thread that Winston refers to and also being a minor contributor to that thread, I would like to add some observations:

On page 1 of the thread:  I get the impression that Winston made a reply back to Pucho that was quoted in part by both him and JR and yet Winston’s original contribution appears to have been deleted from the thread.  Not being able to see the whole context of this is unfair to the forum contributors. (the quotes are from “quote from Wintson O’ Boogie on June 24, 2020 10:07:24AM).  This one referred to Pucho “Maybe he already lost the will to pick up a soldering iron after reading that digital summing is the way to go.” to which Pucho took some offence to.

From what I can see, another post of Winston’s at June 24 2020, 07:45:30 also seems to have disappeared, yet there is at least one quote referring to this.

On page 2 of the thread, another contribution from Winston (June 25, 2020 02:11:26PM) is quoted by JR, but not visible.  This one explains that Winston’s “soldering iron” comment was not meant to be derogatory.

Another contribution from Winston is gone - June 25, 2020 05:36:29PM and two more at 09:54:19 AM and 10:54:24 AM.
At June 26, 2020 06:41:04 PM, I suggested that alternative guidance may come if Pucho can get hold a schematic to an EMI TG recording/mixing console as it could help.   This desk uses transistor-based current sources (not voltage sources using series resistors to turn voltages into currents) to drive a Virtual Earth summing amplifier and was developed in the mid 1960s.  It was a very effective and simple design and I was trying to draw attention to this.  The fact that a console using it was bought for its sound for just under 2 million USD says a lot. 

JR, Mike Batchelor of EMI was 20 years ahead of your idea of using current sources to drive a summing amp, but it was not (necessarily) public knowledge.  Winston, like myself, is somewhat careful of releasing any EMI-related schematics which I why I asked if anyone else had seen it on the Internet.

Overall, I think that Winston got a bit of a raw deal.

/rant off

Mike

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 02, 2020, 01:11:53 PM
Having looked over the ‘mixer’ thread that Winston refers to and also being a minor contributor to that thread, I would like to add some observations:

On page 1 of the thread:  I get the impression that Winston made a reply back to Pucho that was quoted in part by both him and JR and yet Winston’s original contribution appears to have been deleted from the thread.  Not being able to see the whole context of this is unfair to the forum contributors. (the quotes are from “quote from Wintson O’ Boogie on June 24, 2020 10:07:24AM).  This one referred to Pucho “Maybe he already lost the will to pick up a soldering iron after reading that digital summing is the way to go.” to which Pucho took some offence to.

From what I can see, another post of Winston’s at June 24 2020, 07:45:30 also seems to have disappeared, yet there is at least one quote referring to this.

On page 2 of the thread, another contribution from Winston (June 25, 2020 02:11:26PM) is quoted by JR, but not visible.  This one explains that Winston’s “soldering iron” comment was not meant to be derogatory.
Think about it...  why would I delete a post that I quoted... ? 
Quote
Another contribution from Winston is gone - June 25, 2020 05:36:29PM and two more at 09:54:19 AM and 10:54:24 AM.
At June 26, 2020 06:41:04 PM, I suggested that alternative guidance may come if Pucho can get hold a schematic to an EMI TG recording/mixing console as it could help.   This desk uses transistor-based current sources (not voltage sources using series resistors to turn voltages into currents) to drive a Virtual Earth summing amplifier and was developed in the mid 1960s.  It was a very effective and simple design and I was trying to draw attention to this.  The fact that a console using it was bought for its sound for just under 2 million USD says a lot. 

JR, Mike Batchelor of EMI was 20 years ahead of your idea of using current sources to drive a summing amp, but it was not (necessarily) public knowledge.  Winston, like myself, is somewhat careful of releasing any EMI-related schematics which I why I asked if anyone else had seen it on the Internet.

Overall, I think that Winston got a bit of a raw deal.

/rant off

Mike
For the record I did not remove or edit any of his posts. If I do edit or delete anything within someone else's post I say what I did in a comment right in that very same post (most often my edits involve deleting egregious or hurtful insults). I generally prefer to leave violations in place to embarrass the poster into behaving better and to serve notice to others about the rules.

Posters can delete their own posts and I suspect that is the more likely explanation for any missing posts from that thread. Like I said If I delete anything I say so.
===
Of course I have interest in prior art, if EMI schematics are top secret, perhaps there is a patent number with descriptions. I repeat at this late stage of the game analog summing is academic, but I would like to know. It wouldn't be the first time ancients stole one of my ideas.  I even found out after the fact that one of my several patents was not novel, but I learned this after I no longer worked at Peavey and they were assigned the rights (for $1).

In my patent searches back in the 70s and since then I found references to summing tube outputs (class A) but that did not deliver the noise gain benefit solid state bilateral current sources do.  The USPTO examiners could not understand the difference between summing "currents" and summing "current sources", and I did not have the resources to educate them at my lawyers hourly billing rate .

I unequivocally deny that I mistreated Winston or bear him any malice, but he sure thinks I do/did...

Of course if I broke any forum rule let me, and everybody know.   These are the forum rules that Ethan gave us. https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=6650.msg78051#msg78051 (https://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=6650.msg78051#msg78051)

JR
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 02, 2020, 01:24:15 PM
Exactly. That's really the problem isn't it? It's like click-bait. And even if it's not political, it get's highjacked (like the COVID-19 thread). Try as you might to avoid it, you just can't help but get sucked into it.

With the exception of solicitations and childish behavior, I don't like the idea of banning things. Stackexchange moderators are a bunch of autocratic imperial psychos. They expect every post to be crafted like an encyclopedia entry. There's no debating. Sometimes you need to get into a good argument to learn something new (even if you don't admit it initially and then claim you knew it all along a month later).

A good compromise might be to just move The Brewery into to "The Daily Grind" section. That way, when you click on "Unread Posts", all of The Brewery posts are not in your face like click-bait.
The brewery is extremely popular for something so many disdain.

Back in 2018 I made a suggestion to Ethan to consider a Blog/chat like sub forum where comments would disappear after some finite time. I don't know if this would cool down or inflame interpersonal exchanges. Doesn't matter because this was rejected by Ethan.

 He shared that he evaluated a forum software feature that erases threads after x weeks with no new comments. This is clearly unacceptable for technical forums that have archival value, but perhaps letting the brewery post disappear after some interval might work.

Two years ago the forum climate was already heating up and has only gotten worse since then. My suggestion for the chat /blog is that I see many posts in the brewery that have nothing to do with the thread topic, just forum members venting anger anywhere they can...

Hopefully this venting is a healthy release. Nobody is changing anybody's minds here.   

JR
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: madswitcher on August 02, 2020, 02:26:35 PM
Think about it...  why would I delete a post that I quoted... ?  For the record I did not remove or edit any of his posts. If I do edit or delete anything within someone else's post I say what I did in a comment right in that very same post (most often my edits involve deleting egregious or hurtful insults). I generally prefer to leave violations in place to embarrass the poster into behaving better and to serve notice to others about the rules.


I did think about it, which is why I asked why was it deleted (by whoever) and yet still allowed to be quoted.  There is some referential integrity missing here as it did not show Winston's side of the discussion.

Of course I have interest in prior art, if EMI schematics are top secret, perhaps there is a patent number with descriptions.


I don't think they are Top Secret but probably Commercial In Confidence.  However, my attention has been drawn to this site:

http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/TG12345.htm     Which gives a simplified explanation.

Mike

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 02, 2020, 03:40:55 PM

JR, Mike Batchelor of EMI was 20 years ahead of your idea of using current sources to drive a summing amp, but it was not (necessarily) public knowledge.  Winston, like myself, is somewhat careful of releasing any EMI-related schematics which I why I asked if anyone else had seen it on the Internet.

Overall, I think that Winston got a bit of a raw deal.

Thank's  Mike.  Got your P.M. too and thanks for that also :) 
I have to  say that it was me who erased my own posts in that thread and I indicated later on in the thread that I'd done so.   
I did it because I felt I was being bulldozed by J.R. every single time I posted something.   

My replies there were directly in response to the question posed by the O.P.  and I thought it was information worth sharing.   I backed up my posts with figures, tables, and science so they weren't just wild opinions.    I wasn't  in any way saying that this would be the cure all of all mixer evils, I was just simply trying to help answer the question that was initially posed. 
However  J.R. seemed insistent on pushing his 1980 paper and  laying claim to an idea that, as you say (and I knew too),  Mike Bachelor had had almost 20 years prior.   J.R.'s steamroller attitude came across, to me, as an attempt to make all other information moot.   

So I'll say it more clearly now, Mike Bachelor was ahead of you in that regard John, you should probably let it go.

And as it happens, another very talented guy on here P.M.'ed me during that thread letting me know that he had also looked at current source mixing in the past.   Just because he didn't bother to write a paper about it doesn't mean John  gets to make claim on it.
 It's just audio equipment at the end of the day anyway, hardly something that will win Nobel prizes or get the SpaceX astronauts back to Earth. 

Anyway, the way I see it, when we  let go of egos and listen to each other, we find that there are actually lots of people out there with good ideas,  and we all learn from each other.   
 
 

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 02, 2020, 03:51:25 PM
Regarding EMI schematics, in the past I've posted the REDD.47 before it was widely available elsewhere.
I posted the schematic for the T.G. Zener Limiter which was not available anywhere else online.
I posted the RS.124 which cost me a few good friends. 
I've let slip a few other juicy/interesting EMI nuggets along the way too.

I feel I've taken enough "for the team" already in terms of flack from EMI/Abbey Road,  so that's why I decided to call it quits in going there with further T.G. docs. 

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: bluebird on August 02, 2020, 03:53:36 PM
Do NOT underestimate what could happen on election day.  Very clever people are shouting from the rooftops (i.e. Stacey Abrams, President Obama) over the importance over this vote and Bluebird says "just relax."
I was talking about forum discussion, not peoples real political activism. I have no right to tell people to RELAX in general. Lol.

If I remember you told Desol he should be quiet.

True, and that's exactly what I'm talking about. I made a mistake in the heat of the moment because I was emotionally charged about it.

I felt bad that I came on so righteous and strong in my opinions. I usually don't do that. I was wrong to do it.
Desol, didn't respond and to me, that was a forgiving action and showed he had more character than I. Whatever his motivation was, I don't know, maybe he just lost interest. But I appreciated not getting the slap I deserved.

But the point is, we should be forgiven and the friendship and mutual respect should come first. We are all imperfect and an absolute mess, Ha! Keep that in mind, and things will be a lot easier around here.

I don't think we need the brewery. I cannot think of a single positive aspect of it.

I hear you Ian, at some point you have to weigh the good and the bad, pleasure and pain. Nothing in life is rosy all the time. I think  the Brewery has an acceptable balance of good and bad content, weighing heavier on the good. My life wouldn't change if it went away. But reading the Drawing Board at lunchtime would not be as engaging. 

And most importantly, time heals. Take a break and come back later. I've done it many times. My personal "perception" of the Brewery, is not the Brewery. Neither is anybody else's.

P.S.
Often people will come here with personal problems, and everyone rallies together to help. Its really amazing to see how much personal support is here underneath all the other BS. I think that is valuable.

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Phrazemaster on August 02, 2020, 04:26:02 PM
While I appreciate the sentiment of the OP., I don't thinkI can agree with everything.
But I'm not sure I really care any more.

To be honest,  the illusion of family on here left me a few weeks ago.
Not in the Brewery, but in the Drawing Room,  during a thread on mixers.

I was treated, in my opinion,  very unfairly by John Roberts.
 I was told so by another moderator who had wanted to say something but felt unable to.

That's when I decided I'm done participating in anything worthwhile.

I also find it a bit strange that the person whose political opinions I find most odious (not that anyone isn't entitled to an opinion) is also  a moderator who has the power to be warning people about things said in the Brewery.

Also, if I see someone who expresses an opinion that it's funny when folks are shot in the eye with a rubber bullet, I'm going to say  what I think of that opinion.  And I'm even less inclined to be nicer to that person.

Whatever, I'm probably done here in any meaningfully  anyway,

YFMMV.
That’s sad, because I like you and your contributions are always thoughtful, measured, brilliant, and compassionate.

Unfortunately it only takes a few negative experiences to sour someone - I do understand.

Just know there’s a whole bunch of people here, myself included, who deeply appreciate your presence and would be sad if you went away.

Mike
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Phrazemaster on August 02, 2020, 04:48:38 PM
On another note, I think we can all use the experience of the brewery as a learning tool. We are not taught how to disagree with one another and remain civil. But it’s an essential skill.

We would all be better off keeping the brewery but learning how to talk about issues without trashing the other person.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: madswitcher on August 02, 2020, 05:00:52 PM
Thank's  Mike.  Got your P.M. too and thanks for that also :) 
I have to  say that it was me who erased my own posts in that thread and I indicated later on in the thread that I'd done so.   
I did it because I felt I was being bulldozed by J.R. every single time I posted something.   

My replies there were directly in response to the question posed by the O.P.  and I thought it was information worth sharing.   I backed up my posts with figures, tables, and science so they weren't just wild opinions.    I wasn't  in any way saying that this would be the cure all of all mixer evils, I was just simply trying to help answer the question that was initially posed. 
However  J.R. seemed insistent on pushing his 1980 paper and  laying claim to an idea that, as you say (and I knew too),  Mike Bachelor had had almost 20 years prior.   J.R.'s steamroller attitude came across, to me, as an attempt to make all other information moot.   

Likewise my suggestion was an attempt to help the OP. - and thanks for clearing up the point on the deleted posts.  Apologies to JR if he considered my post a jibe at him.

On such fora  one can only take what at face value that which is presented on the screen, and to me that particular thread seemed to be one- sided, and closed to other points of view.

Time to close this one down I feel.

Best regards to all

Mike
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 02, 2020, 05:17:13 PM
I did think about it, which is why I asked why was it deleted (by whoever) and yet still allowed to be quoted.  There is some referential integrity missing here as it did not show Winston's side of the discussion.
I don't think they are Top Secret but probably Commercial In Confidence.  However, my attention has been drawn to this site:

http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/TG12345.htm     Which gives a simplified explanation.

Mike
[/quote]
(http://www.phaedrus-audio.com/TG12345_MONO_watercolour_RAB.jpg)

From observation that current source is class A so will have the constant noise floor from running at 1/2 full scale output current. Plus, while the collector is high impedance, all the Rcs in parallel effectively load the bus increasing the noise gain.  The noise gain would equal  1+ Re divided by the total parallel impedance of all the Rc s. 

I am unsure what the actual benefit of that topology is.  Further any noise on the +V rail will be fed directly into the bus with a gain of -Re/Rc for every channel feeding the bus. Since that +V rail noise is surely coherent the +V noise is boosted Nx (-Re/Rc).

 As I have shared before my synthesized current source reduced noise gain some 20dB in practice. I have been thinking about this for decades and regret that analog summing is now obsolete because I could improve upon what I did last century using modern parts.     

I apologize to the forum for this veer into (boring) console design.  8)

JR
Likewise my suggestion was an attempt to help the OP. - and thanks for clearing up the point on the deleted posts.  Apologies to JR if he considered my post a jibe at him.

On such fora  one can only take what at face value that which is presented on the screen, and to me that particular thread seemed to be one- sided, and closed to other points of view.

Time to close this one down I feel.

Best regards to all

Mike
No worries, JR is used to pulling arrows from his back...

Hopefully there are no more unresolved issues ( I somehow doubt that, but I am an optimist).

JR
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 02, 2020, 05:28:18 PM
 This  circuit is incomplete and, again, is from 1966

I've seen some pretty sophisticated summing circuits using valves from the computing technology department at my local Manchester University,    dating from 1948

How far do we need to go back? 

"There is nothing (much) new under the sun"

If it makes John  feel better about himself to own the idea, then have it.    More important things in life tbh. 

As mad switcher said "Time to close this one down I feel.",   its also time to close it down for me. 



 




Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Winston O'Boogie on August 02, 2020, 06:30:25 PM
Virtual cornhole anyone?

I had to look Cornhole up :). But it sounds about right.

Listen, I'm a big boy.  I don't need an apology from anyone.  I have lots of faults and I've said things on here that I've felt badly about afterwards.  Even if I hadn't  felt I'd done anything wrong, I'd like to think think I'd apologise if I'd done anything to upset  someone.


But it seems to me that someone here feels it's more important to be right than to step back a little and look at how someone else perceived something.

John Roberts just said:

"I unequivocally deny that I mistreated Winston"

Fair enough.  I felt differently.   His denial doesn't change that.   
 
I had a few good talks with the late Brad Wood (BCarso on here) about his departure which was for similar reasons but regarding another moderator.  Now *that*  was a big loss to everyone on here. 

 For the first time in my life I'm just going to block  someone.  No idea how that'll work out?
But I have a hard time in real life  faigning niceness to someone who doesn't play cricket by a gentleman's rules so, why do it here.   



 
 
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Tubetec on August 02, 2020, 06:53:32 PM
I found this ,

https://proverbicals.com/bridges

seems strangely appropriate for where we find ourselves .

probably something in there for everyone in the audience  :)

I liked the Welsh one ,

He that would be a leader must be a bridge. ~ Welsh Proverb

David.


Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: EmRR on August 02, 2020, 06:57:58 PM
I don't think we need the brewery. I cannot think of a single positive aspect of it.

Cheers

IAn


Oh, I've posted lots of links to historical audio articles there.....
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: EmRR on August 02, 2020, 07:04:35 PM

I had a few good talks with the late Brad Wood (BCarso on here) about his departure which was for similar reasons but regarding another moderator.  Now *that*  was a big loss to everyone on here. 

Brad left, and then he passed away.  Two things that sucked. 
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: boji on August 02, 2020, 07:48:22 PM
 I think the best game is to find a way to be able to play the set of all games without losing anything of real importance along the way.

Hope you'll keep playing this one WB

Someone's mailbox is still full, so everyone gets to read my sagacious bs.  ::)
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: 80hinhiding on August 02, 2020, 08:48:25 PM
.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 02, 2020, 11:15:17 PM
Brad left, and then he passed away.  Two things that sucked.
Yes, I stayed in contact with him on Facebook for years after he left, and he was still working on creative outside the box audio designs.

Last design of his that I recall was a crazy low noise fet(?) MC preamp where he had to design a companion low noise PS for it to deliver a combined low noise floor due to the circuits poor inherent PSRR.

But that's how Brad rolled. RIP

JR 

Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: iturnknobs on August 03, 2020, 07:55:04 AM
Great sentiment initially behind this post. I've had some responses from in the brewery from Scott2000 which don't agree with my opinions, but whatever. What I can say is:
     I started building almost all my own gear(outside of digital) in 2013 and GDIY was my escape... then I found the brewery. GDIY was(I thought) the one place without all the BS. While I thought the online, intense opinion spewing was previously unnecessary, 2016 happened. Society openly approved a leader who supports racism, social inequality, sexism, etc. and continues to do what we all know is wrong most of the time. There are more Confederate Flags and Q-Anon stickers on vehicles in my neighborhood than ever before. People outwardly say Trump finally replaced the n****t president around me. I support no one that supports these ideas or the people who spread them. To the post writer: Do not have confidence that things will change in 2020. People know their beliefs are wrong and will receive societal pushback if spoken outwardly. There are SO MANY Trump supporters who know it's wrong, but will still vote for him(while keeping it to themselves). Scott2000's comments and participation have seemed "center-leaning" which is exactly what we don't need going forward... I mean the collective "we" and not the racist/capitalist "we". "We" must be as nasty as the right. Sorry Michelle, "They go low, we go high" is just causing US to be taken advantage of... no offense meant Scott2000. This is not a polite game anymore.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: DerEber on August 03, 2020, 09:42:24 AM
I feel strongly that people should be able to talk about whatever they want so I've never said anything but if we're all going to be open and honest, I think the political discussion here has become a big negative. For me E is a thing to do when you want to get away from the noise. So to come here and see people raging about politics is a real drag. I can't help but wonder if people are tuning out because of it.

I live in Europe an whenever I'm wondering about topics from US-news, be it health incurance, Tump, Covid, Blacklives matters etc., I come here and read some of the discussions.  ;D
This forum connects us in more than just electronics and is btw. one of the greatest I know.
So I rather tune in not out.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 03, 2020, 10:20:43 AM
Great sentiment initially behind this post. I've had some responses from in the brewery from Scott2000 which don't agree with my opinions, but whatever. What I can say is:
     I started building almost all my own gear(outside of digital) in 2013 and GDIY was my escape... then I found the brewery. GDIY was(I thought) the one place without all the BS. While I thought the online, intense opinion spewing was previously unnecessary, 2016 happened. Society openly approved a leader who supports racism, social inequality, sexism, etc. and continues to do what we all know is wrong most of the time. There are more Confederate Flags and Q-Anon stickers on vehicles in my neighborhood than ever before. People outwardly say Trump finally replaced the n****t president around me. I support no one that supports these ideas or the people who spread them. To the post writer: Do not have confidence that things will change in 2020. People know their beliefs are wrong and will receive societal pushback if spoken outwardly. There are SO MANY Trump supporters who know it's wrong, but will still vote for him(while keeping it to themselves). Scott2000's comments and participation have seemed "center-leaning" which is exactly what we don't need going forward... I mean the collective "we" and not the racist/capitalist "we". "We" must be as nasty as the right. Sorry Michelle, "They go low, we go high" is just causing US to be taken advantage of... no offense meant Scott2000. This is not a polite game anymore.
Opinions vary and I won't arm wrestle you about yours even though I don't agree.  I will make a couple observations.

The worst racists I ever encountered were in a bar in Cambridge, MA back in the 60s. I've lived in the deep south for decades and despite some ugly history it is nothing like the Hollywood stereotypes. Our governor just removed the confederate battle flag from our (MS) state flag because of way that symbol has been reframed by the social justice warriors as racist (the history is a lot more complex than that).

I recently re-watched "1984" the movie based on George Orwell's dystopian novel (coincidentally filmed in 1984) and there are some disturbing themes about erasing history, government surveillance, and controlling speech (thought?). The book is a good read but lacks the full frontal nudity.  ::)

===

Being able to have thoughtful civil discourse about issues that bother us is important. If we can't talk, physical violence is the next remedy. It seems that a number of people around the world are already well beyond talking.

 I value that we can still hold civil conversations here even though we don't always agree. Like a family there will always be differences but at the end of the day we are still family.

JR
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: Rocinante on August 03, 2020, 01:32:15 PM
Brethren,
I avoid the brewery a lot these days.  I am heavily involved in civil rights and sometimes I just cant read the opinions on current events by members I highly respect as it pains me.  I have to deal with some really sh*tty people out in the world and I need a break.
And to Winston, Scott, Squarewave, and the others; I love reading your posts. Your experience and stories are great. I look forward to new threads on the drawing board that will contain your little gems of wisdom.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: rob_gould on August 03, 2020, 02:17:35 PM
And to Winston, Scott, Squarewave, and the others; I love reading your posts. Your experience and stories are great. I look forward to new threads on the drawing board that will contain your little gems of wisdom.

I'd say the same about yours. Your recent post in the Minneapolis thread really struck home with me.

But I loved what you wrote a couple of years back about riding the rails in the USA - a subculture that's always fascinated me. It was a brief couple of posts, but so evocative.

That's an excellent example of why The Brewery should be more than just audio topics that don't fit in the other forums, imo.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: hodad on August 03, 2020, 03:06:47 PM

The worst racists I ever encountered were in a bar in Cambridge, MA back in the 60s. I've lived in the deep south for decades and despite some ugly history it is nothing like the Hollywood stereotypes. Our governor just removed the confederate battle flag from our (MS) state flag because of way that symbol has been reframed by the social justice warriors as racist (the history is a lot more complex than that).

JR

The history is not really more complex than that.  I actually agree with you that stereotypes of racism in the South are crap, and that race relations in the South are not nearly as one-dimensional as outsiders might like to think.  I understand the resentment that comes from being prejudged by the same people who are condemning you for your alleged prejudice.

But slavery is slavery, and the type of slavery practiced in the American South was actually much more egregious than many forms of slavery practiced throughout history.  And the excuses I've read for Southern slavery ignore the very crucial fact that humans were owned by other humans--that pretty much makes it wrong full-stop, no?  Let the excuse-making stop before it's even started.

 I've read a fair amount about the history of the incorporation of the Confederate battle flag into various state flags, and the erection of the various pro-Confederate statues and monuments in the South, and it's all flat-out racially motivated.  No reframing is really necessary--just an acknowledgement of the original framing, and the recognition that it was wrong. 

And don't forget that your state's constitution still has a fail-safe mechanism in it to prevent too many dark-skinned people from being voted into the legislature. 

I say this as a white male who has spent nearly his entire life in the South, and whose family has been in the southern US since the 1600s. 
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: JohnRoberts on August 03, 2020, 04:32:48 PM
The history is not really more complex than that.  I actually agree with you that stereotypes of racism in the South are crap, and that race relations in the South are not nearly as one-dimensional as outsiders might like to think.  I understand the resentment that comes from being prejudged by the same people who are condemning you for your alleged prejudice.

But slavery is slavery, and the type of slavery practiced in the American South was actually much more egregious than many forms of slavery practiced throughout history.  And the excuses I've read for Southern slavery ignore the very crucial fact that humans were owned by other humans--that pretty much makes it wrong full-stop, no?  Let the excuse-making stop before it's even started.
Damn... I am not excusing slavery, or the other bad things in our country's history.

How about stopping the slavery going on right now, instead trying to shame innocent people for the sins of their long dead fathers. (not my yankee father of course, but momma RIP was a southern belle.)

list of "whatabouts" to save you the trouble of labelling them as such.

1-What about modern sex trafficking?
2-How about forced labor from Chinese Uighars?
3-How about ISIS brides (Yazidi sex slaves)?
4-How about Taliban (human trafficking forced child labor)?
5- How about the sundry radical islamic groups in Africa routinely capturing young female students and forcing them to marry?
6- etc, etc
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 I've read a fair amount about the history of the incorporation of the Confederate battle flag into various state flags, and the erection of the various pro-Confederate statues and monuments in the South, and it's all flat-out racially motivated.  No reframing is really necessary--just an acknowledgement of the original framing, and the recognition that it was wrong. 
The civil war tore families apart and the aftermath, after the south was defeated was full of lots of bad behavior. No doubt putting up statues of confederate generals across the street from courthouses was red necks behaving badly. What no criticism of the carpet baggers, and more? The confederate statues are tame compared to the other misdeeds.

We fixed our flag, when will you fix Stone Mountain? 


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And don't forget that your state's constitution still has a fail-safe mechanism in it to prevent too many dark-skinned people from being voted into the legislature. 
I didn't forget, but now I know.... I guess. (I've only lived here for 30+ years, but already know more about local history than I wish to repeat or reflect upon.)
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I say this as a white male who has spent nearly his entire life in the South, and whose family has been in the southern US since the 1600s.
I am clearly not as woke as you, nor do I feel guilty for being white. I can only control what I do now, and sucking up to the social justice crowd for something I have no control over is not my idea of making the world better.

JR

PS:  As long as we are talking about "history", your favorite president calling the filibuster a "Jim Crow" relic (at the eulogy I didn't watch), probably refers to it being used by legislators to block civil rights legislation that did not have an overwhelming majority (yet). In hindsight we can all agree that civil rights reform was past due, but to conflate that with advocating senate rules changes is less than honest. Legislation should be hard to pass until and unless there is overwhelming public support. "Mr. Smith goes to Washington" movie is a bit cliched, but demonstrates the power of the filibuster.  Governing is hard and we need to be wary of the tyranny of crowds (including social media crowds). 

Of course opinions vary.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: john12ax7 on August 03, 2020, 05:24:12 PM
The Brewery should be more than just audio topics that don't fit in the other forums, imo.

I agree.  I enjoy and learn from the various side topics that get discussed.  The quality of discussion here is better than most places.
Title: Re: Our DIY family, politics, and scott2000
Post by: hodad on August 03, 2020, 05:40:54 PM
[

We fixed our flag, when will you fix Stone Mountain? 
I would love to see Stone Mountain fixed.  A recent proposal to stop cleaning the carving seemed like a good approach--let it rot away beneath the mossses & lichens. 
You fixed your flag(your word, so I assume you acknowledge it needed fixing), so why the backhanded slap at the people who helped push to make it happen?

I am clearly not as woke as you, nor do I feel guilty for being white. I can only control what I do now, and sucking up to the social justice crowd for something I have no control over is not my idea of making the world better.

I'll  infer there was sarcasm behind your use of the word "woke" (really, is there a chance you would use it otherwise?)
Which is fine. 
The problem with what many people (not you as far as I know) are doing now is that they're hanging on to these vestiges of the  antebellum South, the notion of the noble Lost Cause, ridiculous justifications for how slavery was really okay, the notion that these statues are about honoring their "heritage."    How do you think it feels for a Black southerner to walk daily past statues honoring the very people that enslaved their ancestors?  What is honorable about that heritage?  We as a nation (and it's truer in the South than most other places) have not moved past the Civil War.  And it's not just the statues.  It's also the statutes that infringe on Blacks' voting rights, it's redlining and de facto segregation in schools and housing, it's in the way that a lot of whites, regardless of what they may say, feel inside about the equality of Blacks in America--not just in the legal sense, but what do they feel as to the intelligence and character of Blacks? 

I'm not a perfect human being in this regard, but I strive to act better, be better, understand more, do better.  Unfortunately, there is a sizable minority in this country  who not only fail to recognize the racial issues in this country, they're actively working to make things worse.   

So, I'm not sure you're interested in being more "woke," but it's worthwhile to take some time to consider how (and why) the folks who fought to retain slavery in this region continue to be honored, and how the vestiges of slavery continue in our society and our institutions to this day. 

*****NOTE:  I accidentally posted before finishing & replaced original post with final text.