Fully balanced summing box, 16 channels, with level and pan

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20k duals are hard to find.. i can easily get 10k and 50k that is why i ask. how did you come by the values you have listed, can you supply the equations?

Looks like you are also approximating antilog pots too correct?
 
While Svart is tracking down the pots, I'll hunt down the transformers.

by the way, are you looking for pots at mouser? digikey?

Regarding the trannys, I'm a bit confused on what to choose...

I know I need a 1:1, but what impedance? 600:600? 10k:10k? 15k:15k?
(i've been searching here on what the impedance rating of transformers really means, its more of an optimum operating impedance, right? A maximum power type thing?) Can anyone direct me to a thread or link to learn more here?

The issues here is that the output impedances of the things that are going to be connected to this passive summer are from 50 ohms to 600 Ohms, i'm expecting.

I'm looking at Cinemags , Lundahls, etc.. maybe even OEP, or Edcor to cut costs, but who knows how it will sound...

People talk about noise in their passive summers, is this due to just dropping the signal and then having to boost the signal and the noise?
Or is it an issue of improper shielding?

Thanks Dave and Svart.
 
I'm mainly looking at pots in easy to find places like mouser and digikey. mouser has the 24mm alpha pots which i have used without a lot of problems and they are cheap too. however, Mouser has Alps cheapo plastic shaft pots too which migh be something to test with.


Noise will definatly be related to impedence matching, resistor quality and of course attenuation and later amplification.


I am thinking of using the FETbloak opamps in these.. any opinions on those?

I'm not going to use balanced in/out since i want to add this to a console and not a stand alone unit.

I just bought some edcors for another project and they are of decent quality although i have not actually used them yet.
 
Well, here's the problem: every part of the circuit is highly interactive.

The input impedance of the mixer should be around 5K at a minimum in order to work with a wide variety of equipment. Lower than that is no problem for most true professional equipment, but most definitely a problem for consumer and "prosumer" stuff. And the output of the mixer needs to have a level and source impedance compatible with the input of a mic preamp.

The input impedance of the panpot circuit is fairly constant at about 50% of the value of the pot--and this is much better than the "usual" dual-lin panpot circuit, which has an input Z that's all over the place. The panpot needs to be fed from a source impedance of not more than 20% of the pot value. That, along with the minimum input impedance requirement, sets the limit on the value of the level pot.

The panpot needs to be loaded by a resistance equal to the pot value; this consists of the mixing resistor and the buss impedance in series. A 200-Ohm buss impedance is negligible compared to the value of the mixing resistor in the case of this design, so we can ignore it and use a 10K mixing resistor for a 10K panpot, 20K for a 20K pot and so on.

The impedance of the buss is all channels (mixing resistor in series with the panpot source impedance, which varies from zero to about 15% of the pot value) in parallel, which is forced down to the desired value by Rshunt.

If we scale everything up to allow a 50K dual for the pan--which means ~50K mixing resistors-- the output impedance will be too high. If we adjust the shunt on the output to compensate, the total attenuation will be ridiculous, more than twice the already-substantial figure of the circuit as I drew it. You'd be lucky to achieve anything approaching an acceptable signal-to-noise ratio. If we scale it down to use a 10K panpot, the input impedance will be too low to be acceptable for "general purpose" use.

All of this applies to the usual "summing box" case in 2005, where the goal is to mix a number of line-level sources into a mic preamp. But Svart, I'm not really clear on what you're looking to do. You want to gut an existing console and install a passive mix buss? If that's the case, outside of the question of why you would want to do such a thing, the requirement is different when you're using dedicated, built-in amplifiers. For one thing, you usually wouldn't need to force the output Z and level quite so low--although doing so does yield a benefit in reduced crosstalk, at the cost of worsened S/N.

You have to think about what you're hoping to gain from passive mixing and not just do it for the sake of it being "passive" and therefore somehow "better." Study the problems of passive mixing in detail and it becomes obvious why active mixing took off the way it did, once it became easy to accomplish with gobs of cheap solid-state gain. It solves a few problems, although it introduces some new ones of its own! There's always a price to pay no matter how you mix.

FWIW, 20K seems to be a more common value in the UK than here in the States. You might be able to obtain 20KB duals without too much trouble from a UK supplier. And I believe Omeg (also in the UK) will do small runs of custom types at a reasonable price. A stepped pan is not out of the question, either. You already know that Mouser sells a 2P12T MBB rotary at a very reasonable price, if 11 panning positions are good enough.
 
dave thanks for letting us peer into the design choices you made. I'm studying.


what about the transformers? :wink: From what youre saying, I'm seeing 10k:10k inputs and 600:600 outputs.

correct?

thank you again!
 
thanks NYD, this isn't about gutting a console to use a passive system alone, more like experimentation and wide array of tools in my box. I've never done something like this and would like to try a few things out and see where it goes from there.

In a nutshell I would like to take one set of active buss channels and install one set of passive buss channels with classA makeup amps and see what happens.

I guess you could say that I am not happy with someone just telling me that it's bad or good and that being the end. the negligable cost and low parts count are enough to say "why not do it". I have already layed out a card that would adapt my main bussing cable to the circuit providing the power rails, faders and the I/O and giving me an easy place to hookup some discrete opamps that will be arriving shortly.

If it's not something I end up being able to use then all i've wasted is some time and a few dollars in parts that I will just end up using on something else.
 
.
Woohoo! Just traded a box of caps to the local store for 16 Duncan 10KA slidelines, plus a 0-300/0-20/6.3/12v bench supply. Great day!

Regarding 20k duals... after some digging...
futurlec.com/Potentiometers/POT20KDUAL.shtml
cheapy Alpha dual 20k .90 each. Would be nice to find better, but in the meantime they'd work, and they're in stock.

ozgear.com.au/electronicparts/Components_Resistors_Capacitors11.htm
oz audio australia. 20K dual... brand? quality better than Alpha?

Bourns makes a 20k dual (388 series), but no stock I could find in US.
State Elec will do a 'custom' order on Bourns, min 100pcs.
CTS makes a 25k (???) dual, 550 series, ditto for US stock.
Noble makes these: nobleusa.com/pdf/Eth0141-4.pdf
but another tease... couldn't find retail stock.

Only thing google popped up in UK was maplin, but I didn't go there.

Cheers, Paul
 
Don't buy 'em all, I might actually build one of these things for myself :wink:

Seriously, though, don't drop a lot of dough on your first order. If you search on Usenet, you'll see some griping about Futurlec. The typical complaint seems to be s-l-o-w delivery.
 
I ordered a whole bunch of stuff from these guys today. this is a different Future electronics than I use at work it turns out.. but these guys have MUCH better prices than who i usually use!

ds1669 digital pots are only 3.69!!!! they are 8$+ at digikey!

a hell of a selection of resistor values too!

:green:

if i danced it would be a happy dance..

but I have PCB layed out for a version of this to connect right to my console's buss for immediate trial once the parts come in!
 
im going to try a 4 channel version 1st with some edcors first.

if it all works out, i'll have 16 channels, everything PCB mounted.

Svart, keep us posted on your progress.

bb
 
I have been thinking about this design for some time and I had an idea this morning.

In implementing a stepped 12 pole switch I could use 11 positions for panning and the 12th for a mute. 10 2k resistors in series for each leg of the 20k dual with the first position shunting both L & R to ground...

I'm also thinking of using a dedicated line amp for the job makeup gain. Namely 2 Forssell 992s capacitor coupled with a 600:600 on the output as per his website. I know the 992s like a higher impedance... 600 in the case of his je-16 mic amp schematic.

So can the formula be raised to 600 ohms by:

Rshunt= (22k/N) * 600 / (22k/n) -600

without screwing it up? :grin:
 
So can the formula be raised to 600 ohms by:

Rshunt= (22k/N) * 600 / (22k/n) -600

without screwing it up?

Yes. Crosstalk will be a bit worse than it would with a 200-ohm buss, but probably not enough to notice. And S/N will be better due to less attenuation.

The problem with your panning plan is that it will give a linear law, which is generally not what you want for a pan control. It'd be OK if you never panned during a mix, but problematic otherwise. What you need is a constant power law. The necessary data to choose the steps of attenuation are detailed in "Precision Pan Pots" by Richard C. Cabot (JAES Volume 26 Number 4 pp. 227-228; April 1978). Alas, I can't post the article publicly because of copyright. But, over the holidays, when I have some down-time, maybe I can sketch a table of values for an 11-position panpot. Don't hold me to it, though. There's much eggnog to be drunk over the coming days :wink:.
 
No, it's neither log nor reverse log. It's a special taper that gives a constant power sum from the two channels in all positions.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/sound/fantafig1.gif

It was found that by fading between two speakers, located about 20 feet apart, we could simulate a moving sound-source, provided that the total level in the room remained constant. It became obvious at once that simple mechanical ganging of the volume controls feeding the two loud speaker circuits was not capable of producing the desired effect.

A special two-gang volume-control was then designed with complementary attenuations in the two circuits such that the sum of the attenuations, expressed as power ratios, equaled a constant. The formula for the relationship between the two attenuations is:

A = B - 20 log (2 sinh 0.115B) / 2

where A and B represent the two attenuations, expressed in decibels. Typical attenuation curves are shown in Fig. 1.
 

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