Neve 1073 big bottom vs 1272 small bottom ?!

As read here:
http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pages/Neve1073.htm

This unit consists of two Neve 1073 mic pre-amps as sold by Neve in the 70's (mic pre only-no EQ) with the same low end and 80DB of gain. A 1073 module with EQ is referred to as a "1073", and the pre-amp only section of a 1073 is referred to as a 1290. So the actual name of these modules is "1290", but they are the actual pre-amp in the 1073 module.

These aren't to be confused with the more commonmodified 1272 pre-amps with a smaller bottom end and only 45db of gain.

Click to expand...

:roll:

As long as the additional preamp ('third section') is not relevant - so for gains less than say 50dB -, I wasn't aware of any differences.

What could they be meaning w.r.t. that smaller bottom ?

I'll further compare the circuits, but thought that these beasts would be sounding identical for gains under 50dB and properly micpre-modified 1272's.

Thanks,

Peter

Sounds like BS to me...though maybe a poor implementation of the 1073 type gain switch on a 1272 could have an impact on the low end, but it seems like a stretch. I think it would affect distortion more.

Pretty sure that at low gains 1272s and 1073s are identical.

Kris

[quote author="DrFrankencopter"]Sounds like BS to me...though maybe a poor implementation of the 1073 type gain switch on a 1272 could have an impact on the low end, but it seems like a stretch. I think it would affect distortion more.

Pretty sure that at low gains 1272s and 1073s are identical.

Kris[/quote]
Nice, thats's what I wanted to hear ! :thumb:
It all makes sense again.

I've heard 1272s with poor LF response. Most people totally mess up the conversion process and this is one of the side effects. It's not hard to do. And as a matter of fact I have heard differences in LF rolloff between various stock 1272 and EQ modules as well. There were subtle variations in components and corrective filtering over the years and we all know what dried up caps can do to your bass.

Anyway, I'm sure the advertiser quoted above was referring to the fact that if you try to crank more than 50dB or so gain out of a 1272 there is a loss of LF because the feedback network starts to look like an RC high pass filter (cutoff freq raises).

[quote author="clintrubber"]As read here:
http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pages/Neve1073.htm

This unit consists of two Neve 1073 mic pre-amps as sold by Neve in the 70's (mic pre only-no EQ) with the same low end and 80DB of gain. A 1073 module with EQ is referred to as a "1073", and the pre-amp only section of a 1073 is referred to as a 1290. So the actual name of these modules is "1290", but they are the actual pre-amp in the 1073 module.

These aren't to be confused with the more commonmodified 1272 pre-amps with a smaller bottom end and only 45db of gain.

Click to expand...

:roll:

As long as the additional preamp ('third section') is not relevant - so for gains less than say 50dB -, I wasn't aware of any differences.

What could they be meaning w.r.t. that smaller bottom ?

I'll further compare the circuits, but thought that these beasts would be sounding identical for gains under 50dB and properly micpre-modified 1272's.

Thanks,

Peter[/quote]

Hi :grin:

The 1290 Gain stage section is the same as the 1073 (3 deck one for gain rotary switch) and I've build the both there's for me no difference between But I've never compare with the 1272 Hot rod version (1 or 2 deck for gain rotary switch).

But I will be curious to "see",to hear if there's a difference 1272/1073 or 1290 because if there's no .....that's could be more easy to build and to mount in the rack (you don't have the two ba189 and Gain rotary switch to build ) so smaller pcb and so..

But, the frequency response of 1290 or 1073 is very beautiful the Low and High are amazing in my opinion,that's a great sounding.So if it can do the same only with a 1272 at 50-60dBu it will be very very "nice".....
That's interesting....wait and see.. :grin:


b2

I built my 1272's with a 3 deck switch...varying gains on stage 1 and 2, and padding the input for the lowest gain settings.

Had mine on the spectrum analyzer a few years back, no real loss of low end at high gain settings (maybe 'cuz I switch in a bigger cap), but high freq response does suffer a little (though still over 20kHz for -3dB).

Cheers,

Kris

my 1272's lack no bass whatsoever.. in fact it's almost too much!

[quote author="Svart"]my 1272's lack no bass whatsoever.. in fact it's almost too much![/quote]

I'm with you, The SCA N72 is a fantastic implementation of the 1272 where I am concerned, and low end response is not nearly a shortcoming of the topology. It has been said before, there should be no difference between proper implementations at 50dB or less of gain.

Above 50dB, it's almost entirely possible that the better 1272 implementations might even be preferable. After all, the difference lies in the distortion characteristics, which after all are a part of the magic these preamps are known for.

People with ears posessed by marketing men and magazine reviews will certainly buy into the crap in post one though. :roll:

Thanks all. :thumb:
So far I assumed there's essentially only one way to hook up that
3-deck switch and those two pre- & one post-stage
- so when I read what I quoted it didn't seem to make sense
- hence my question.

From that webpage I got the impression that there was
yet another thing to sort out :sad: - but not so if
I understood it correctly.
I haven't studied the various connecting-diagrams yet
in full detail but what I saw so far w.r.t. the 3-deck switch
was fairly identical
(1290-EN10041, 1073-EH10023, 1063).

Thanks,

Peter

Check Joe's site for a cool short form connection of a gain pot for the 1272
and
also has a switch kit to add the extra gain stage and adds the right gain topology

The three decks are only required if you want the full gain with extra pre stage AND the Attenuator section for loud signals.
Others have done it with seperate switches or relays.
The bass response can also be about the proper connection of both input and output trafos.

We don't know anything about the above web site and his comments except that it seems like oversimplified PR crap.

Any of the 1066 through to 1073 type circuits, when properly implemented will sound fine
... this means the caps, gain control and trafos all need to be in good condition and on spec.

knowledge is everything
and
every thing is good

[quote author="Kev"]The three decks are only required if you want the full gain with extra pre stage AND the Attenuator section for loud signals

any of the 1066 through to 1073 type circuits, when properly implenented will sound fine.
this includes caps gain control and trafos.

knowledge is everything
and
every thing is good[/quote]
Hi Kev,

Thanks for the heads up. And sure, I wouldn't have gone the 3-deck route if it wasn't for Joels 3*12 rotary switches recently in the Black Market.
Even if I'd only use 2 decks it'd been a nice deal, but now the opportunity came for 3 decks then why not do it completely - it won't add that much additional effort (he now thinks... :wink: )
80 dB is indeed a lot. But with some ribbon-(M)S-micing in mind some spare gain over 50dB could come in handy :thumb:

Bye,

Peter

I think it'd be cool to do up a 1272 (or even a 1073/1290) with three seperate gain controls (i.e. 3 single deck switches). Then you can tweak the gain staging to your own satisfaction. Maybe even put an output attenuator on there so you can run the 1272 full out without saturating your A/D or whatever the next input stage is...

If I was gonna do it again (and had the panel real estate) I'd do it like that.

Cheers,

K

[quote author="DrFrankencopter"]I think it'd be cool to do up a 1272 (or even a 1073/1290) with three seperate gain controls (i.e. 3 single deck switches). Then you can tweak the gain staging to your own satisfaction. Maybe even put an output attenuator on there so you can run the 1272 full out without saturating your A/D or whatever the next input stage is...

If I was gonna do it again (and had the panel real estate) I'd do it like that.

Cheers,

K[/quote]
I've been browsing my Neve-files & stuff last week and ran into Rafafreds approach again - which had a lot of this.
I don't know what his findings are in this respect, but that output-attenuator is indeed the least we could add - I hope it'd be interesting to drive that output-TX a bit further and then attenuate down to the real world with a pad, pot or a 600 Ohm-T-att.

It's indeed tempting to add more separate decks but right now I'm a bit spoilt by the does-it-all-with-one-knob thing. I'll certainly be adding post-output-TX-att in some form though.

Thanks for bringing this up / remembering ! :thumb:

Then you can tweak the gain staging to your own satisfaction.

Click to expand...

The difficulty I see here is: when would that be ? When is there time and enough room & control of the situation for 'advanced adjustment' of a mic-pre ?
So for tracking it seems somewhat difficult to me, but that could very well be me.
For something like re-amping-at-ease it'd be great though and reason enough to do it. :thumb:

Bye,

Peter

A 1290 is a 1290! Wonder if there ever have been a real original N*E*V*E unit that can be called a 1073 w/o EQ as the 1073 also have a line input section which the 1290 don't have :?

[quote author="Tekay"]A 1290 is a 1290! Wonder if there ever have been a real original N*E*V*E unit that can be called a 1073 w/o EQ as the 1073 also have a line input section which the 1290 don't have :?[/quote]
Oops, you're right, line-inputs have been completely ignored with the various name-mentioning.

Actually a nice thing (here - now - for me) that it's exactly the 1290 that doesn't have the line-input: no need to skip parts/sections/setting/stuff of the complete diagram since the 1290-EN10041 drawing is already 'cleaned'.

OK, I won't be cloning the oscillator-input :thumb:

Regards,

Peter

[quote author="Kev"]... AND the Attenuator section for loud signals.[/quote]ok
:roll:
I should have said LINE level to make it clearer

A 1290 is almost a 1063 w/o EQ! if you need extended gainrange usae the 1063 gain switch in the 1290 then you'll get -80 to +10dB.

To get a line in through the mic transformer you can put a three resistor pad infront of the transformer but mirrow it so the parallell resistor loads the input of the transformer. 2 x 6k8 in serie and a 1k over the prim winding will give you ~-30dB without any low-end loss and 13k input impedance. ( synths will be happier when they don't have to drive a 300 or 1200 ohm input ) Without proper primary loading you'll get a LF rool off.

[quote author="Tekay"]A 1290 is almost a 1063 w/o EQ! if you need extended gainrange usae the 1063 gain switch in the 1290 then you'll get -80 to +10dB[/quote]
Thanks, overlooked detail of the 1063.
Would be a pity to shift that 12/13/14-position switch 'upward' to loose the -80 dB setting (however seldom it'll be used) for line-inputs when the line-levels could be accomodated by your suggested pad.

To get a line in through the mic transformer you can put a three resistor pad infront of the transformer but mirrow it so the parallell resistor loads the input of the transformer. 2 x 6k8 in serie and a 1k over the prim winding will give you ~-30dB without any low-end loss and 13k input impedance. ( synths will be happier when they don't have to drive a 300 or 1200 ohm input ) Without proper primary loading you'll get a LF rool off.

Click to expand...

Just to be sure w.r.t. the 'so the parallell resistor loads the input of the transformer' like you said:
you mean an 'U-pad' with the central 1k resistor directly in parallel with the TX-primary, correct ?

Bye,

Peter

Yes a U pad with the 1k facing the transformer input, forgot the name

[quote author="Tekay"]Yes a U pad with the 1k facing the transformer input, forgot the name [/quote]
Fine, thanks ! :thumb: