Quick Power Transformer / PSU Question

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rodabod

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Joined
May 12, 2005
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What is the general concensus on what power transformer secondary voltage to go for, for a particular DC supply?

I'm just sorting out a 18V power supply and am wondering whether to go for a 15V toroid or an 18V toroid....

With a 15V toroid, I'll end up with ~ 1.4*15 = 21V DC

With a 18V toroid, I'll end up with ~ 1.4*18 = 25V DC

So, would you generally be better with the 15V model since the regulators will have to "burn up" less, or is there a reason why people go for higher-volatage than necessary?

Thanks,

Roddy
 
[quote author="CJ"]in reality, that 1.4 number tends to be closer to 1.3 for most supplies, unless you have a beefy pwr trans with 0 dcr.[/quote]

Thanks.

So, do you thinbk it would be risky going with a 15V model in this instance? I just don't see the point in getting a model which is bigger than necessary...
 
I use the 15volts
but
I'm in Australia and the power here is most likely higher than yours
we were officially 240volts and we are supposedly changed to 230volts
BUT
every time I measure what's coming out the wall socket I get 240volts AC
so the 15 volts Transformer gives me a little more and I have the headroom required.

If you live in a 220 world then you should look to higher units like 18 to 24.
Also if you power ... browns out often ... or just gets low then, you may find the 18v an advantage.
 
It could go either way. 15V if you have enough VA rating, if not you better do 18v for reasons that Kev brought up. line sag is nasty and can really screw you if your regs don't have enough voltage headroom to work properly.. at least 3 volts above the intended output. You can squeeze a little bit more out of the supply using better rectifiers too.
 
I think 15V is too close for comfort... Going from output to input: for 18VDC, the regulator will need about 19.5Vpeak minimum, plus 1Vp-p ripple, plus two diode drops in a full-wave rectifier, that's ~22Vpeak AC. So you would need at least a (22/1.414 =) 15.7VAC secondary transformer. And if the line sags 10% (worst-case), it brings the total to 17.5VAC. An 18V transformer will do just fine.

Sure, you can get a bigger-than-necessary 15V transformer which will put out 17-18V under your particular load, but why not just go for the real thing? it will probably be smaller and cheaper...

A while ago, someone here (PRR?) mentioned a rule of thumb: get a transformer with AC secondary voltage equal to your final regulated DC voltage. So go for the 18V. :thumb:

Peace,
Al.
 
There are a number of things that conspire to screw you when it's a critical situation and your sizing is based on nominal conditions. Svart has mentioned low line, which is important. As also mentioned, there's winding resistance, and there's its increase with temperature, along with saturation of the core on current peaks. And one that is particularly pernicious in some environments is the flattening of the tops of the assumed sinusoid, due to all the other power supplies with capacitor-input filtering like yours that are likely connected to the line. Power-factor correction is gradually being instituted to alleviate this effect, but many existing loads are around that don't use it.

Don't neglect the other end of the scale when sizing the regulator heatsinking and the voltage rating of filter caps: some transformers are going to have a much higher open-circuit voltage than the voltage rating at low load, and if your current drain is low you may get quite a bit more rectified volts than anticipated, especially if you are lucky enough to have a nearly sinusoidal line voltage. Then you may encounter high line conditions, in some locales as much as 25-30%! Dell had a number of mysterious failues for a while, including shutdown/non-operation of powered speaker systems, that would be returned to the manufacturer and diagnosed as NTF (No Trouble Found). It was conjectured that the cause was overvoltage shutdown of the amplifier IC's, which had been tested at some more reasonable overvoltage (like 10%).
 
> 18V power supply ...With a 15V toroid, I'll end up with ~ 1.4*15 = 21V DC

You can't get 18VDC regulated from "21VDC".

Your 21V is the peak of the rippled DC; troughs may be 1V lower.

Regulators have dropout-voltage, and working at the claimed minimum usually means terrible performance.

And the power company can't be trusted. (If it could be trusted, you might not need regulation at all.)

It may "work" fine on the test bench.

Murphy's Law says it WILL fail in the field. It won't just quit, it will have odd buzzes and DC shifts.

> is there a reason why people go for higher-volatage than necessary?

I'm building you a house. You weigh 100 pounds. I design the floor to support just 100 pounds. How do you feel about that? If you gain a pound, or I slipped a tenth-inch in beam size, you fall through the floor. That's why Floor Code specifies a load you can hardly actually fit in the room, and requires you to assume wood is 3 times weaker than average. That's why my 5psi steam boiler is tested to 50psi. In electronics we don't have so many knots and casting bubbles, or we can test some out, but we still don't sit AT "just barely does the job".

Engineering isn't about best-case situations. Look at the worst-case. Power line sags to 108V (or your equvalent brown-out voltage). "1,000uFd" cap turns out to be 300uFd (tolerance is -20%, and nobody is perfect). Regulator chip has a snot on the wafer, dropout is 0.2V more than the Typical spec. Your load runs to the high side of nominal current. All this can happen, and therefore will go wrong if you let it.
 
There are a lot of variables. Mains voltage, of course. +/-10% pretty much covers it - a nominal 117V line might give you as little as 103V or as much as 128V. Probably not in most cases. If you know you're only going to use the box in your own house and your own mains are always 121.3VAC, you could design around that number. But it makes more sense to design a circuit that will anticipate a range of variables and not screw you later when your circumstances change.
Next variable: Transformer regulation. The Amveco torroids in the Digikey catalog range in regulation from 15.5% up to 45%. This means that the unloaded output voltage will be 15.5% to 45% higher than the nominal voltage. So, for the worst-case scenarios (the poorly-regulated 5VA torroid in a variety of environments), your 18VAC transformer can put out anywhere between 16.2VAC and 28.71VAC. Go with the 50VA unit and it's only a range of 16.2VAC to 22.9VAC.
Next you have your rectifier topology and the number of diode drops associated with it, whether the ripple is 120Hz or 60Hz, the amount of ripple you can tolerate, and the size of your filter caps.
Finally you come to the regulator itself, which brings in two issues: The regulated voltage plus the dropout differential must be greater than the minimum DC rectifier output minus the ripple; and the regulator must be able to tolerate the maximum possible voltage seen. Regulator in-out differential limits are fairly easy to account for, just like capacitor voltage ratings. The trickier issue is the heat dissipation in the regulator. Watts dissipated is the current through the regulator multiplied by the voltage across it (in-out voltage differential). Once you know the wattage dissipated, you can multiply it by the thermal resistance of the regulator and its heatsinking to determine the temperature increase over the ambient temperature (inside the chassis). Of course, if the circuit generates a lot of heat, then the ambient temperature inside your box will increase. This all has to work out so that your regulator doesn't get hotter than its rated operating limits. But it's tough to tackle, because the only way to limit the heat dissipated is to limit the input voltage. Simply using a lower-voltage transformer is one way to do it, but if you run into drop-outs on the other end then you're just as screwed. You don't have much choice but to choose the transformer to accommodate the voltage minimum (90% mains voltage at full transformer load). Then you simply have to build in the necessary protections against higher input voltages. I tend to use voltage limiters that have no effect below a certain threshold. To keep things simple, you can just use big heatsinks.

As for your specific application, I can give an example. I have a box on the bench right now that uses an 18V+18V torroid transformer to produce 18V bipolar rails along with some other supply needs. I very nearly went with the 15V+15V transformer, but decided it wouldn't work well in Japan, where 100V is nominal. Here in my shop, where the mains are a high 123VAC, I get over +/-30VDC out of the raw supply, unloaded. Once everything is powered it's down just under +/-29VDC. This is a 15VA transformer, which is a bit oversized for the circuit. Going large on the power transformer generally gives you a unit with better regulation, and it means waveform coming off it (both power output and radiated field) tend to be cleaner, without serious harmonic content. I can calculate that my +/-29VDC rails from 123VAC mains would give me +/-27.1VDC rails from nominal 115VAC mains; +/-24.4VDC rails from 90% (103.5VAC) mains; and +/-21.22VDC rails from nominal Japanese mains. That doesn't leave much leeway for low mains in Japan. Everybody else should be fine.

You can do the math yourself and decide if you think a 15V transformer will cover you in all the places and circumstances you'll be using it. The advantages are lower heat dissipation, and higher current capacity in the same size transformer. The disadvantage is the risk of regulator drop-out.
If you're building a power supply for a mike preamp, there's another factor to consider. A good voltage doubler on an 18V transformer can produce a solid 48V phantom supply in most cases. A 15V transformer generally can't. That would mean you'd need a tripler, which will produce a bit TOO much no-load voltage, but will be more difficult to keep stiff if you're pulling a bit of current from it (like if you're powering relays or LEDs off the phantom supply). Maybe not something you need to worry about, I don't know your application.
 

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