UL listing?

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I used to know a guy who worked for UL. He told me that it costs thousands of dollars to certify a product. His personal opinion was that it was a scam. As for me, I dunno... I agree with the idea of certification in principle, since it involves personal safety, but I don't know enough about the workings of UL to comment on it.
 
is there any laws governing electronic products on the retail market? who is liable for a poorly designed product that for example starts a fire?

I thought thats what UL was all about but now im not so sure...
 
I have ask this several times at several places and the responses I keep getting is that UL does not have anything to do with liability. It only serves as a certification for end users that require it, much like the CE mark. If the person/company you are selling to does not require it, then you don?t need it. If your equipment catches fire and burns someone?s house down, they can sue your butt whether your unit was UL listed or not.

Again, this is what I?ve gathered from other folks on the web ? not an official answer. We should just call UL and see.

I do know that lot?s of studio equipment related products are not UL listed.
 
I would call a UL office for the answers you are looking for. I have been audited by UL a ton of times on a variety of products. Each product had different areas UL focused in on. I mainly had to show that certain components had the proper certifications and labeling by the manufacturer. I had to show the auditors certain components on PCB'S that are for safety of the end user. Things like that. I am sure the quality engineers where asked to provide much more info. I know UL has concerns with noise emissions, environmental conditions, destructive testing, etc.

NWSM
 
I've had some dealings with UL in the past. Most of the safety problems arise when you have mains powwered equipemnt. They zero in onthe mains transformer like locusts. There was one "funny" test where they put a piece of cheesecloth over the transformer, have amisn voltage 10% over norm and load the secondary with nominal load. Then they put ir in climate chamber at around 40-45 celsius and wait something like 8 hrs to see if the cloth scorches or goes up in flames. Light brown scorching is ok, flames are a failed test.

When it comes to CE marking the story is different - am preparing for CE mark so i'm reading up on the subject. CE marking is mandatory by law on all electrical and other products sold in European Union. However, testing by a recognised testfacility is NOT. It is responsibility of the manufacturer and/or distributor to provide a "Declaration of Compliance" whereby you swear that you have performed all tests and measurments as prescribed by relevant EU directives - in case of electronic equipment in the consumer and professional category these are LVD (Low Voltage Directive) and EMC (Electromagnetic Compliance). LVD deals mainly with safety issues, EMC deals with both radiated RF energy and the equipment susceptability to Rf radiation, in both cases wire and airborn.

So far so good, you can make some measurements and declare whatever. You are however required to keep a "Technical File" with full documentation of your product and all the test & measurements made, proving that this was done according to methods recommended in the text of directives. You have to have manufacturers' file numbers for all safety critical components etc. It can amount to full file cabinet of paperwork.

Now suppose You were a little sloppy and just flew over the testing and you equipment somehow intefered with a computerised lighting system, a huge spotlight starts spinning and hits a celebrity in the head. Your equipment will be subjected to a fullscale test at a recognised testlab and if they find any discrepancy or anything above/outside of allowed levels you're in deep excrement.

One thing which is annoying is that you have to CE mark everything you make and intend to use and/or sell, even if it is a one-off.

And if you want to have the stuff properly tested and certified you better build 3 at once. The first will get destroyed in the test, the second one you'll have to modify according to testers' recommendations and submit for second test, if it passes you have keep this one as "master". Then you can modify the third, make more identical units and deliver.

A good thing in this whole Kafka-like world is that a certification done by any recognised lab in any EU country is valid in all of EU.
I was given a rough estimate for a full testing & certification for a piece of vacuumtube equipment from a swedish lab at roughly 10.000 USD. A search on the internet gave several hits in new EU countries, a quick phonecall to a recognised lab in Poland produced a quote of 3.000 USD for the same test.

Maybe a little OT but i thought you might be interested.
 
There was a rather langthy discussion on this Synth-DIY awhile back, you can try searching the archives at www.buchi.de. I seem to recall it cost a few thousand dollers and 3 prototypes of the item to be tested, but I can not say for sure.

adam
 
UL is for America, CE is Europe, and CSA is Canada.
You can have different types of UL, like Listed vs Approved.
Listed is cheaper and easier than Approved.
They will want to short out the sec. of your mains tranny for a certain period of time. Sometimes they want the pri and sec fused, depending on the application.
And they want a strain relief on the power chord.

Thats about all I know.
 
Done UL many times take products to them they abuse them and they pass.
Well they pass because our design group did their job. Safety and EMI.
The EMI tests for radio and microprocessor stuff is real fun, but that does not apply here.

I think the safety guys UL,ETL,TUV,CSA etc. are good as they keep the
junk Christmas lights out of the country, a lot les fies that way.

I know TUV and CSA are a little more real and not as big of a "not for profit"
corp. like UL. UL can be a pain to deal with and they move like snails.
Having safety testing done is a good idea. Will it help you in a lawsuit not sure.
Should you do it yes if you have "money to burn".
I assume it would cost about 3.5K to get it done. I would pick TUV
and they have a lab in Atlanta.

Most of the high end tube guys do not have UL or any other safety agency as most of the Pro audio guys do not either.
The tube guys do not even have CE and they still sell to the EU.
Not sure how they do it but they do.
IMHO and only IMHO I think for the product and to the clients
you are selling you do not need it.
If I was selling to John Doe public I would get it without question.

Do insure that you have no safety issues and you use a good fuse
for fire protection.

And the last question does U .... A have their products tested?
I thought I would hear that answer.
 
UA

I believe I saw a UL sticker on their reissues...

might also have something to do with using screws instead of thumbscrews for the front panel...
 
VacuumVoodo gives a good summary of product safety testing. A CE mark is mandatory for all products shipped to the EU. The cost of obtaining a CE mark is very high, $10k - $15k per product in the USA through certified testing labs. Apparently less costly elsewhere in the world. The paperwork requirements are hell. Every component in every product must be documented as to materials used, flame retardantcy tests, toxicity, and so forth. We have one shelf of a large bookcase devoted entirely to component test data ? really should get this into a virtual format.

UL is a different animal. This is a private, non-profit testing lab. While there are no federal laws requiring UL testing of audio gear (that I?m aware of), many private and public entities do require some kind of testing mark on commercial and industrial products. This can be true of concert venues and city offices. Even Los Angeles County has their own product safety testing labs.

It?s in a manufacturer?s best interest to design to UL standards ? for audio, this would typically be UL813, and possibly others..

http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/scopes/0813.html

For voltages under 48V, design requirements are fairly straightforward. UL is most concerned with higher voltage/power, such as power supply primaries, grounding, risk of fire, and mechanical safety. Even for home brew projects, I think it?s best to get in the habit of building to UL requirements. And for a manufacturer, it is essential. As a rule, CE is a bit stricter than UL, so designing to CE standards will usually satisfy UL requirements, though there are some exceptions.

JL
 

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