NewYorkDave
Well-known member
Bob, I test my smoke detector the same way, but with a cigarette. (That is, if it hasn't already undergone an unscheduled test in the recent past due to my burning something in the oven!).
Whole House Main Power Draw
- Thread starter bobkatz
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
Okay Bob,
My copy of NEC is 1996, but the code probably has not changed drastically... All emphases in italics are mine.
Article 702 Optional Stby Systems
702-5: Capacity and Rating. An optional stby system shall have adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment intended to be operated at one time....The user of the optional stby system shall be permitted to select the load connected to the system.
702-6: Transfer Equipment. ...Transfer equipment...shall be permitted to contain supplementary overcurrent protection having an interrupt rating sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver.
So that sounds like YOU get to select the load and you are doing the right thing by shutting off the gennie at ITS miximum current. Seems like maybe your inspector might be accustomed to the rules for hospitals, but a quick scan of that shows that they are allowed to determine what is and is not connected to the gennie? Now perhaps you just have to figure out a gentle way to redirect his eyes around to this section of the codebook. BUT! Check the most current version of the code before you go rubbing his nose in it.
There is no part of the code that specifies the maximum size of a conductor, only a minimum. Maybe you need to remind him that you have rewired the other circuits? Maybe his wife left him on the day that you got him?
Hope that helps!
Charlie
My copy of NEC is 1996, but the code probably has not changed drastically... All emphases in italics are mine.
Article 702 Optional Stby Systems
702-5: Capacity and Rating. An optional stby system shall have adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment intended to be operated at one time....The user of the optional stby system shall be permitted to select the load connected to the system.
702-6: Transfer Equipment. ...Transfer equipment...shall be permitted to contain supplementary overcurrent protection having an interrupt rating sufficient for the available fault current that the generator can deliver.
So that sounds like YOU get to select the load and you are doing the right thing by shutting off the gennie at ITS miximum current. Seems like maybe your inspector might be accustomed to the rules for hospitals, but a quick scan of that shows that they are allowed to determine what is and is not connected to the gennie? Now perhaps you just have to figure out a gentle way to redirect his eyes around to this section of the codebook. BUT! Check the most current version of the code before you go rubbing his nose in it.
There is no part of the code that specifies the maximum size of a conductor, only a minimum. Maybe you need to remind him that you have rewired the other circuits? Maybe his wife left him on the day that you got him?
Hope that helps!
Charlie
SSLtech
Well-known member
Bob, did you down-size BOTH paths (generator AND land-feed) or just the genny leg of the 'Y' ?
Oh, and I have a friendly licensed electrician about 50 feet away from me at the moment; (I just loaned him some crimper tools etc. for a job at his house). He's Orange County based, if that makes a difference: I'll print out this thread and see what he says about it.
Keith
Oh, and I have a friendly licensed electrician about 50 feet away from me at the moment; (I just loaned him some crimper tools etc. for a job at his house). He's Orange County based, if that makes a difference: I'll print out this thread and see what he says about it.
Keith
Hi, Charlie. I'm so glad someone with a copy of the code who understands it is here.
I did downsize the whole house, effectively, by putting in a 100 amp breaker to feed the automatic transfer switch. That's what the guy is complaining about. But we both know that I can't use the 200 amp breaker because it's only a 100 amp rated transfer switch.
So the issue is that HE says that a house like this would pull more than 100 amps... and I'm prepared to prove that's untrue by measuring a full load (whatever that is..... I could turn on the power saw if he wants
.) And he says that's NOT enough, he wants me to take an official survey based on "theoretical consumption" and the ratings of the equipment in watts divided by 240. Plus some factor based on the square footage of the house. I predict that screws me royally as I could see the sly smile on the guy's face when he told me that would come up to more than 100 Amps.
Do you follow what I'm faced with now?
BK
I did downsize the whole house, effectively, by putting in a 100 amp breaker to feed the automatic transfer switch. That's what the guy is complaining about. But we both know that I can't use the 200 amp breaker because it's only a 100 amp rated transfer switch.
So the issue is that HE says that a house like this would pull more than 100 amps... and I'm prepared to prove that's untrue by measuring a full load (whatever that is..... I could turn on the power saw if he wants
.) And he says that's NOT enough, he wants me to take an official survey based on "theoretical consumption" and the ratings of the equipment in watts divided by 240. Plus some factor based on the square footage of the house. I predict that screws me royally as I could see the sly smile on the guy's face when he told me that would come up to more than 100 Amps.Do you follow what I'm faced with now?
BK
> I was now protected against electrocution by the safety-ground-fault interrupting outputs .... I didn't point out that the efficacy of these contraptions was null when a two-wire appliance was used.
A GFI is effective on a 2-wire, or even 1-wire, unbalanced load.
Stand on a dirt floor, put a finger in the Hot hole, the GFI will trip. Done it myself.
GFIs work by enforcing Common Mode Rejection. If there is any unbalance, they yank the connection.
> How can square footage influence the excess (or otherwise) of 100 Amps, I wonder?
"Adequate General Lighting". It is no joke. Parts of my house do NOT have enough electricity to provide enough light to see well in. A main purpose of electrification is so citizens can see. And to raise propery values throughout the electrification area. If Bob is allowed to de-wire his house to a substandard level, the neighborhood becomes a slum. Also Bob may be tempted to use candles and burn the whole town down.
None of this really applies here....
I'm away from my books. I think 3 Watts per square foot covers General Lighting and incidentals. That is not unreasonable, nor normally hard. I've lived in a house which needed 1.2 15A circuits for all General Lighting.
There is a diversity factor which comes into play for very large homes and multi-occupant buildings; not all lights will be on at once.
The Electric Stove calculation is a beast. Even a 50 Amp stove is not required to have a 50A feeder in residential use.
Another thing is the number of circuits. Many loads need dedicated circuits. There is a limit on the number of circuits in one residential box. A 100A box may not have enough holes. (However I believe it is legal to use a 200A box with 100A fusing.)
This is absolutely the kind of thing that Electricians do. To the Inspector's satisfaction (well, acceptance). You would not ask an electrician to master a recording.... Why is a mastering genius bumbling an electrician's job?
> the house originally had a 200 amp service and there was a technical reason for it, or rather, an official reason for it.
Well, most likely: the cost of doing the survey exceeded the difference in cost of a 200A va 100A main box, so they threw in a 200A box.
My guess is: with all the A/C off on a separate connection, a "house" will just fit in 100A, unless it is exceptionally large.
If you are getting street gas, absolutely convert to Gas Hot Water. It is stupidly cheaper than electric, the tank is not a large investment, and it gets a large load off your calculations. (Oh, but you don't have the gas IN your building, do you?)
A GFI is effective on a 2-wire, or even 1-wire, unbalanced load.
Stand on a dirt floor, put a finger in the Hot hole, the GFI will trip. Done it myself.
GFIs work by enforcing Common Mode Rejection. If there is any unbalance, they yank the connection.
> How can square footage influence the excess (or otherwise) of 100 Amps, I wonder?
"Adequate General Lighting". It is no joke. Parts of my house do NOT have enough electricity to provide enough light to see well in. A main purpose of electrification is so citizens can see. And to raise propery values throughout the electrification area. If Bob is allowed to de-wire his house to a substandard level, the neighborhood becomes a slum. Also Bob may be tempted to use candles and burn the whole town down.
None of this really applies here....
I'm away from my books. I think 3 Watts per square foot covers General Lighting and incidentals. That is not unreasonable, nor normally hard. I've lived in a house which needed 1.2 15A circuits for all General Lighting.
There is a diversity factor which comes into play for very large homes and multi-occupant buildings; not all lights will be on at once.
The Electric Stove calculation is a beast. Even a 50 Amp stove is not required to have a 50A feeder in residential use.
Another thing is the number of circuits. Many loads need dedicated circuits. There is a limit on the number of circuits in one residential box. A 100A box may not have enough holes. (However I believe it is legal to use a 200A box with 100A fusing.)
This is absolutely the kind of thing that Electricians do. To the Inspector's satisfaction (well, acceptance). You would not ask an electrician to master a recording.... Why is a mastering genius bumbling an electrician's job?
> the house originally had a 200 amp service and there was a technical reason for it, or rather, an official reason for it.
Well, most likely: the cost of doing the survey exceeded the difference in cost of a 200A va 100A main box, so they threw in a 200A box.
My guess is: with all the A/C off on a separate connection, a "house" will just fit in 100A, unless it is exceptionally large.
If you are getting street gas, absolutely convert to Gas Hot Water. It is stupidly cheaper than electric, the tank is not a large investment, and it gets a large load off your calculations. (Oh, but you don't have the gas IN your building, do you?)
bcarso
Well-known member
[quote author="PRR"]> I was now protected against electrocution by the safety-ground-fault interrupting outputs .... I didn't point out that the efficacy of these contraptions was null when a two-wire appliance was used.
A GFI is effective on a 2-wire, or even 1-wire, unbalanced load.
Stand on a dirt floor, put a finger in the Hot hole, the GFI will trip. Done it myself.
GFIs work by enforcing Common Mode Rejection. If there is any unbalance, they yank the connection.
[/quote]
Amazing---does that mean they require equal currents to be pulled from hot and neutral---and if so I guess it has to be a damn small imbalance? I should then think that some equipment would trip them if they had sufficient mismatch in line bypassing. Maybe some equipment does.
I do note that the one in the bathroom does nuisance-trip occasionally. I've never been interested enough or inconvenienced enough to look inside and figure out why.
A GFI is effective on a 2-wire, or even 1-wire, unbalanced load.
Stand on a dirt floor, put a finger in the Hot hole, the GFI will trip. Done it myself.
GFIs work by enforcing Common Mode Rejection. If there is any unbalance, they yank the connection.
[/quote]
Amazing---does that mean they require equal currents to be pulled from hot and neutral---and if so I guess it has to be a damn small imbalance? I should then think that some equipment would trip them if they had sufficient mismatch in line bypassing. Maybe some equipment does.
I do note that the one in the bathroom does nuisance-trip occasionally. I've never been interested enough or inconvenienced enough to look inside and figure out why.
AnalogPackrat
Well-known member
[quote author="bcarso"]
Amazing---does that mean they require equal currents to be pulled from hot and neutral---and if so I guess it has to be a damn small imbalance? I should then think that some equipment would trip them if they had sufficient mismatch in line bypassing. Maybe some equipment does.[/quote]
Indeed. Per code, we have a GFCI outlet on our front stoop. I get nuisance trips when using higher powered tools (circular saw, air compressor, etc.) on that outlet. In fact, when we were remodeling our house the carpenters would run an extension cord to an inside outlet to avoid the problem (much to the chagrin of my wife, as this enabled all manner of insect and arachnid interlopers access to our house). They were using table saws, planers, jointers, compressors, etc. so I assume the inductive loads were to blame.
A P
Amazing---does that mean they require equal currents to be pulled from hot and neutral---and if so I guess it has to be a damn small imbalance? I should then think that some equipment would trip them if they had sufficient mismatch in line bypassing. Maybe some equipment does.[/quote]
Indeed. Per code, we have a GFCI outlet on our front stoop. I get nuisance trips when using higher powered tools (circular saw, air compressor, etc.) on that outlet. In fact, when we were remodeling our house the carpenters would run an extension cord to an inside outlet to avoid the problem (much to the chagrin of my wife, as this enabled all manner of insect and arachnid interlopers access to our house). They were using table saws, planers, jointers, compressors, etc. so I assume the inductive loads were to blame.
A P
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
Well Bob, I thought I understood what you are doing here, and I thought I understood you to say that you put the feeds to your HVAC on a seperate breaker? That ought to take you out of the zone of concern.
Then again, maybe you are doing this all your self and what this "survey" is REALLY all about is the IBEW? Are you using an electrician? Maybe you need to hire one temporarily?
Maybe we should be approaching this with the normal first question:
"Have you got a schematic?"
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
This 100A breaker is only between the gennie and the load, not between the service and the load... correct?
Then again, maybe you are doing this all your self and what this "survey" is REALLY all about is the IBEW? Are you using an electrician? Maybe you need to hire one temporarily?
Maybe we should be approaching this with the normal first question:
"Have you got a schematic?"
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:
This 100A breaker is only between the gennie and the load, not between the service and the load... correct?
SSLtech
Well-known member
[quote author="bcarso"]Amazing---does that mean they require equal currents to be pulled from hot and neutral---and if so I guess it has to be a damn small imbalance? I should then think that some equipment would trip them if they had sufficient mismatch in line bypassing. Maybe some equipment does.[/quote]
Yes, yes and ...Yes indeed. (I had that problem with an Adams-Smith synchroniser PSU once, so I know!)
Basically from what I recall there's a trip for the mechanical breaker which is balanced by the 'pull' of two small solenoid-type devices (one in L leg one in N leg). When current is balanced, no trip. When current is imbalanced, (Current flowing down EITHER leg does not return down the other) then something is leaking to ground -whether down the ground conductor, or a bath full of water. -presto... trippo!
Or at least, that's how I read it when I pulled a dead one apart a few years ago...
Keith
Yes, yes and ...Yes indeed. (I had that problem with an Adams-Smith synchroniser PSU once, so I know!)
Basically from what I recall there's a trip for the mechanical breaker which is balanced by the 'pull' of two small solenoid-type devices (one in L leg one in N leg). When current is balanced, no trip. When current is imbalanced, (Current flowing down EITHER leg does not return down the other) then something is leaking to ground -whether down the ground conductor, or a bath full of water. -presto... trippo!
Or at least, that's how I read it when I pulled a dead one apart a few years ago...
Keith
[quote author="PRR"]
This is absolutely the kind of thing that Electricians do. To the Inspector's satisfaction (well, acceptance). You would not ask an electrician to master a recording.... Why is a mastering genius bumbling an electrician's job?
[/quote]
Mastering genius? You're very kind
Anyway, I take my knocks, PRR! I admit, I bumbled it! But I am proud to say that I got bumbled by the legal part of it, not the frigging technical... A neighbor of mine did the EXACT installation approach and I took it as an example that I could do the same thing. Good thing somehow he never triggered an inspection!
BK
This is absolutely the kind of thing that Electricians do. To the Inspector's satisfaction (well, acceptance). You would not ask an electrician to master a recording.... Why is a mastering genius bumbling an electrician's job?
[/quote]
Mastering genius? You're very kind
Anyway, I take my knocks, PRR! I admit, I bumbled it! But I am proud to say that I got bumbled by the legal part of it, not the frigging technical... A neighbor of mine did the EXACT installation approach and I took it as an example that I could do the same thing. Good thing somehow he never triggered an inspection!
BK
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"]Well Bob, I thought I understood what you are doing here, and I thought I understood you to say that you put the feeds to your HVAC on a seperate breaker? That ought to take you out of the zone of concern.
Then again, maybe you are doing this all your self and what this "survey" is REALLY all about is the IBEW? Are you using an electrician? Maybe you need to hire one temporarily?
[/quote]
Hi, guy!
I don't know how strong the union is in this town, but you can be sure the town inspector is tied in, maybe through his nuts. (Actually, we had a friendly conversation, he seems to be a good guy, but don't ask him to bend)
Incorrect. I put the 100 A breaker between the service and the entire load. That's what the inspector is bitching about.
I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but can we try signal flow first? It would take me an hour to draw a PDF schematic and then put it up on our http.
The 240 v HVAC USED to be on two breakers, 30 amp and 40 amp in the main service box (over specified, I assume), and the whole house was on the distribution lugs at the bottom. I removed BOTH the HVAC and the whole house from this.
I then put in a 100 amp breaker in one of the slots. I then fed the 100 amp breaker to an ATS (automatic transfer switch which also has distribution breakers). I put the HVAC on a couple of breakers in the ATS and then fed the distribution lugs of the ATS spliced into the whole house feed.
May sound scary to some of you, but it seemed straightforward to me until the inspector mentioned "survey."
Then again, maybe you are doing this all your self and what this "survey" is REALLY all about is the IBEW? Are you using an electrician? Maybe you need to hire one temporarily?
[/quote]
Hi, guy!
I don't know how strong the union is in this town, but you can be sure the town inspector is tied in, maybe through his nuts
. (Actually, we had a friendly conversation, he seems to be a good guy, but don't ask him to bend)Incorrect. I put the 100 A breaker between the service and the entire load. That's what the inspector is bitching about.
I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but can we try signal flow first? It would take me an hour to draw a PDF schematic and then put it up on our http.
The 240 v HVAC USED to be on two breakers, 30 amp and 40 amp in the main service box (over specified, I assume), and the whole house was on the distribution lugs at the bottom. I removed BOTH the HVAC and the whole house from this.
I then put in a 100 amp breaker in one of the slots. I then fed the 100 amp breaker to an ATS (automatic transfer switch which also has distribution breakers). I put the HVAC on a couple of breakers in the ATS and then fed the distribution lugs of the ATS spliced into the whole house feed.
May sound scary to some of you, but it seemed straightforward to me until the inspector mentioned "survey."
G
Guest
Guest
[quote author="bobkatz"]
I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but can we try signal flow first? It would take me an hour to draw a PDF schematic and then put it up on our http.
[/quote]
Draw it, scan it and put it up here via http://groupdiy.twin-x.com/index.php
I know a picture is worth a thousand words, but can we try signal flow first? It would take me an hour to draw a PDF schematic and then put it up on our http.
[/quote]
Draw it, scan it and put it up here via http://groupdiy.twin-x.com/index.php
bcarso
Well-known member
"Ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) sockets
Type B (NEMA 5-15) GFCI socketThese versions of the 5-15 socket are Residual-current devices and have Test and Reset buttons (and sometimes an indicator light). In the U.S. and Canada they required in many potentially wet locations, including outside outlets, bathrooms, some places in kitchens, basements and crawl spaces. They work by comparing the current going out on the live connector to the current returning on the neutral, and will disconnect the circuit if the difference exceeds 4-6 milliamps. They are cheaper than GFCI circuit breakers and can be wired to feed additional "downstream" outlets so that putting one GFCI receptacle in a circuit will protect all the plugs, lights and switches downstream from it. They are also recommended for power tool outlets and locations where children might insert metal objects in the sockets."
(from a wikipedia article on NEMA stuff)
4-6mA! I can see why they false-trip a lot.
Type B (NEMA 5-15) GFCI socketThese versions of the 5-15 socket are Residual-current devices and have Test and Reset buttons (and sometimes an indicator light). In the U.S. and Canada they required in many potentially wet locations, including outside outlets, bathrooms, some places in kitchens, basements and crawl spaces. They work by comparing the current going out on the live connector to the current returning on the neutral, and will disconnect the circuit if the difference exceeds 4-6 milliamps. They are cheaper than GFCI circuit breakers and can be wired to feed additional "downstream" outlets so that putting one GFCI receptacle in a circuit will protect all the plugs, lights and switches downstream from it. They are also recommended for power tool outlets and locations where children might insert metal objects in the sockets."
(from a wikipedia article on NEMA stuff)
4-6mA! I can see why they false-trip a lot.
> Mastering genius? You're very kind
Just observing that you are good enough that you find it worthwhile and affordable to put money into avoiding downtime. Any fool can mix; it takes a sharp person to get paid often enough to make a business of it.
> I got bumbled by the legal part of it, not the frigging technical...
And I'm sure, in your racket, you spend less time at the speakers than at the paperwork desk. Finding clients who can pay, telling them they should pay, and making sure they DO pay. Splitting the take with your gear supplier, helpers, taxman, etc.
The journeyman electrician may spend his whole time with wires. The successful Electrician spends more time with calculations and estimates and permits (and payroll and taxes) than with wires.
I'll rough-out a demand calculation. This is NOT a complete list, and may be substantially in error. Get experienced advice, and pay him well.
We need 3 Watts per Square Foot for lighting. You can argue that modern bulbs are more efficient; it isn't worth arguing, this will not be your big load. It isn't worth going room to room, use the gross footprint. I don't know your shack; I'll pick 2,000 square feet out of thin air. 3*2000= 6,000 Watts.
Only the first 3,000 watt counts 100%, after that it counts 35%. (And 25% over 120,000 watts or 40,000 SqFt....) So general lighting is 4,050 Watts.
Wall outlets for general use (not dedicated or specific) must be mounted no more than 12(?) feet along walls and must be counted as 180 Watts (per duplex I think). Taking some guesses of room sizes, say 60 outlets. 180*60= 10,800 Watts.
A home normally is required to have 2 dedicated 20A kitchen/pantry and one laundry circuit. The boiler is a dedicated circuit. That's four 20A 120V circuits. Although I know my boiler uses 3A, I think I am required to count it as 15A (15A circuits are no longer common). 9,600 Watts. There is some wiggle possible on the laundry line.
Large motors such as air conditioners, use the nameplate Amps. EXcept... take the largest one and multiply by 125% for start-up. I have a 20A and a 33A (you will have more): 4,800 plus (7,920*1.25)=10,000W is 15,000 Watts.
Ovens and ranges seem to count as full nameplate load. Can easily be 6,000 Watts, and more in a deluxe kitchen.
We should convert to Amps, and we can round-off to the nearest Amp. I'll stay Watts, but the inspector may need to see the Amps worked out.
4050
10800
9600
15000
6000
45,450 Watts, at 240V is 189 Amps!!!
However: you are not really running a "house". You are required to provide 3W/SqFt... when the utility power is on. But when the lines are down, you are allowed to live without any power at all. (Unless it becomes such a health mess that the area is evacuated.) So you let your house go dead. But you can't afford to let your fish-freezer thaw (or pressing jobs miss deadlines) so you want your business to stay up. So segregate your circuits: house or essential business. You may have been using circuits for both purposes; you may have to re-think and maybe re-wire so that you can work in the light yet live in the dark.
Since you can probably budget your audio gear, studio light, and studio A/C, to fit in 100A or even 60A (no laundry or kitchen, small area), it should be possible to make it legal. But it may mean a lot of circuit shifting to segregate the essential business from the merely residential.
Just observing that you are good enough that you find it worthwhile and affordable to put money into avoiding downtime. Any fool can mix; it takes a sharp person to get paid often enough to make a business of it.
> I got bumbled by the legal part of it, not the frigging technical...
And I'm sure, in your racket, you spend less time at the speakers than at the paperwork desk. Finding clients who can pay, telling them they should pay, and making sure they DO pay. Splitting the take with your gear supplier, helpers, taxman, etc.
The journeyman electrician may spend his whole time with wires. The successful Electrician spends more time with calculations and estimates and permits (and payroll and taxes) than with wires.
I'll rough-out a demand calculation. This is NOT a complete list, and may be substantially in error. Get experienced advice, and pay him well.
We need 3 Watts per Square Foot for lighting. You can argue that modern bulbs are more efficient; it isn't worth arguing, this will not be your big load. It isn't worth going room to room, use the gross footprint. I don't know your shack; I'll pick 2,000 square feet out of thin air. 3*2000= 6,000 Watts.
Only the first 3,000 watt counts 100%, after that it counts 35%. (And 25% over 120,000 watts or 40,000 SqFt....) So general lighting is 4,050 Watts.
Wall outlets for general use (not dedicated or specific) must be mounted no more than 12(?) feet along walls and must be counted as 180 Watts (per duplex I think). Taking some guesses of room sizes, say 60 outlets. 180*60= 10,800 Watts.
A home normally is required to have 2 dedicated 20A kitchen/pantry and one laundry circuit. The boiler is a dedicated circuit. That's four 20A 120V circuits. Although I know my boiler uses 3A, I think I am required to count it as 15A (15A circuits are no longer common). 9,600 Watts. There is some wiggle possible on the laundry line.
Large motors such as air conditioners, use the nameplate Amps. EXcept... take the largest one and multiply by 125% for start-up. I have a 20A and a 33A (you will have more): 4,800 plus (7,920*1.25)=10,000W is 15,000 Watts.
Ovens and ranges seem to count as full nameplate load. Can easily be 6,000 Watts, and more in a deluxe kitchen.
We should convert to Amps, and we can round-off to the nearest Amp. I'll stay Watts, but the inspector may need to see the Amps worked out.
4050
10800
9600
15000
6000
45,450 Watts, at 240V is 189 Amps!!!
However: you are not really running a "house". You are required to provide 3W/SqFt... when the utility power is on. But when the lines are down, you are allowed to live without any power at all. (Unless it becomes such a health mess that the area is evacuated.) So you let your house go dead. But you can't afford to let your fish-freezer thaw (or pressing jobs miss deadlines) so you want your business to stay up. So segregate your circuits: house or essential business. You may have been using circuits for both purposes; you may have to re-think and maybe re-wire so that you can work in the light yet live in the dark.
Since you can probably budget your audio gear, studio light, and studio A/C, to fit in 100A or even 60A (no laundry or kitchen, small area), it should be possible to make it legal. But it may mean a lot of circuit shifting to segregate the essential business from the merely residential.
Thanks muchly PRR and all. I'm overwhelmed and impressed by the help here. I might end up with another $1000 and a wasted, 100 amp automatic transfer switch on my garage wall. The best thing is I have six months to get this straight. Waiting till after Hurricane season.
Someone asked for a schematic (block diagram). I've drawn it and you can find it here:
go to http://ftp.digido.com:8000
your name is topaz your password is topaz
Click on house power block diag.pdf and you can see it. Thanks, all, hope this has been educational to some. Don't mess with electricity.
BK
Someone asked for a schematic (block diagram). I've drawn it and you can find it here:
go to http://ftp.digido.com:8000
your name is topaz your password is topaz
Click on house power block diag.pdf and you can see it. Thanks, all, hope this has been educational to some. Don't mess with electricity
.BK
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
>>>So segregate your circuits: house or essential business.
Yessssss, PRR. This is what I was assuming that Bob was up to in the first place. I am at home today, sitting with my post-op wife so I cannot view the pdf just now. (Don't ask...stupid Microshaft updates!) but it is pretty clear that you need some more WIRE, Bob. You should be good to go on using your xfer switch, just rearrange its connection to the circuits.
You need to have the "properly-sized" main breaker for the service to be legal with the Code fer sure, though we can all fully understand why that isn't really necessary. Then segregate what you know you need for the business to run (and maybe some minimal houseload.) and connect just those circuits to the Xfer switch.
Bob, you can always cook up a plan that uses some extra outlets on the gennie side of the circuit and some extension cords to provide power to some other places in your house in a temporary way (you may need to think creatively here while still being safe! Maybe run one or two outlets on the opposite side of the house?) Cause when the stink hits the fan and you need power for a few minutes in some obscure part of the house, there won't be any electrical inspector around to hassle you! haha!
Hope that helps!
Charlie
Yessssss, PRR. This is what I was assuming that Bob was up to in the first place. I am at home today, sitting with my post-op wife so I cannot view the pdf just now. (Don't ask...stupid Microshaft updates!) but it is pretty clear that you need some more WIRE, Bob. You should be good to go on using your xfer switch, just rearrange its connection to the circuits.
You need to have the "properly-sized" main breaker for the service to be legal with the Code fer sure, though we can all fully understand why that isn't really necessary. Then segregate what you know you need for the business to run (and maybe some minimal houseload.) and connect just those circuits to the Xfer switch.
Bob, you can always cook up a plan that uses some extra outlets on the gennie side of the circuit and some extension cords to provide power to some other places in your house in a temporary way (you may need to think creatively here while still being safe! Maybe run one or two outlets on the opposite side of the house?) Cause when the stink hits the fan and you need power for a few minutes in some obscure part of the house, there won't be any electrical inspector around to hassle you! haha!
Hope that helps!
Charlie
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"]>>>So segregate your circuits: house or essential business.
Yessssss, PRR. This is what I was assuming that Bob was up to in the first place. I am at home today, sitting with my post-op wife so I cannot view the pdf just now. (Don't ask...stupid Microshaft updates!) but it is pretty clear that you need some more WIRE, Bob. You should be good to go on using your xfer switch, just rearrange its connection to the circuits.
You need to have the "properly-sized" main breaker for the service to be legal with the Code fer sure, though we can all fully understand why that isn't really necessary. Then segregate what you know you need for the business to run (and maybe some minimal houseload.) and connect just those circuits to the Xfer switch.
[/quote]
Gotcha. Well, if I could have segrated the circuits in the first place I would have. This model of ATS is designed to do a whole subcircuit structure, but installing it into EXISTING construction is a nightmare. It really can only do well in a new structure or in an existing structure where you can easily get into the walls between the service entrance and the existing distribution panel. But I can't.
So if the legal requires me to have a 200 amp main service, then it's going to cost me about $1000 plus labor and time to install a 200 amp whole house transfer switch.
Since I have six months leeway, if a hurricane comes now I can still run the whole house on the gennie.... It's wired, it works... not legal but it works!
BK
Yessssss, PRR. This is what I was assuming that Bob was up to in the first place. I am at home today, sitting with my post-op wife so I cannot view the pdf just now. (Don't ask...stupid Microshaft updates!) but it is pretty clear that you need some more WIRE, Bob. You should be good to go on using your xfer switch, just rearrange its connection to the circuits.
You need to have the "properly-sized" main breaker for the service to be legal with the Code fer sure, though we can all fully understand why that isn't really necessary. Then segregate what you know you need for the business to run (and maybe some minimal houseload.) and connect just those circuits to the Xfer switch.
[/quote]
Gotcha. Well, if I could have segrated the circuits in the first place I would have
. This model of ATS is designed to do a whole subcircuit structure, but installing it into EXISTING construction is a nightmare. It really can only do well in a new structure or in an existing structure where you can easily get into the walls between the service entrance and the existing distribution panel. But I can't.So if the legal requires me to have a 200 amp main service, then it's going to cost me about $1000 plus labor and time to install a 200 amp whole house transfer switch.
Since I have six months leeway, if a hurricane comes now I can still run the whole house on the gennie.... It's wired, it works... not legal but it works!
BK
SonsOfThunder
Well-known member
Aww,
Sorry then if I restated the obvious. Well at least you should not have trouble finding a buyer for your 100A switch. Just find someone with a smaller house! I'm sure lotsa folks down there are doing the same thing that you are in light of recent events.
Hey, one more option: what about rewiring your studio with breaker panel on the outside of the house? I was offered this option when I wanted to add power to may garage at my old house. Maybe that's not a good plan either?
Best wishes on finishing this up.
Charlie
Sorry then if I restated the obvious. Well at least you should not have trouble finding a buyer for your 100A switch. Just find someone with a smaller house! I'm sure lotsa folks down there are doing the same thing that you are in light of recent events.
Hey, one more option: what about rewiring your studio with breaker panel on the outside of the house? I was offered this option when I wanted to add power to may garage at my old house. Maybe that's not a good plan either?
Best wishes on finishing this up.
Charlie
[quote author="SonsOfThunder"]Aww,
Sorry then if I restated the obvious. Well at least you should not have trouble finding a buyer for your 100A switch. Just find someone with a smaller house! I'm sure lotsa folks down there are doing the same thing that you are in light of recent events.
Hey, one more option: what about rewiring your studio with breaker panel on the outside of the house? I was offered this option when I wanted to add power to may garage at my old house. Maybe that's not a good plan either?
Best wishes on finishing this up.
Charlie[/quote]
Thanks, Charlie. I considered that, but anyway, it's more than the studio. We now have two studios and a graphics room, all part of the business. I want to power the A/C and the refrigerators from the generator, too. It's a never-ending story, but anyway, onward and upward, it's only money :-(.
Sorry then if I restated the obvious. Well at least you should not have trouble finding a buyer for your 100A switch. Just find someone with a smaller house! I'm sure lotsa folks down there are doing the same thing that you are in light of recent events.
Hey, one more option: what about rewiring your studio with breaker panel on the outside of the house? I was offered this option when I wanted to add power to may garage at my old house. Maybe that's not a good plan either?
Best wishes on finishing this up.
Charlie[/quote]
Thanks, Charlie. I considered that, but anyway, it's more than the studio. We now have two studios and a graphics room, all part of the business. I want to power the A/C and the refrigerators from the generator, too. It's a never-ending story, but anyway, onward and upward, it's only money :-(.
