Mixing In-the-Box with outboard analog gear

Okay, I have made my decision on how I want to proceed, and it was due in very large part to my conversation with Kev from days of yore. :wink:

I am going to get a small but good sound card (I have my eye on the Lynx2 4-in/4-out) and mix ITB. The issue is, I want to be able to use my analog outboard gear in the mixdown. This means looping audio out of the soundcard, up to four tracks at a time, processing it, then sampling it back in.

Has anyone here ever worked this way before?

This would greatly reduce the number of compressors and equalizers I would need to build. It would make the workflow a little more complicated, but I think I can handle that.

As for implementation, it seems to me that a well-wired patchbay would be my friend here. With little more than a bunch of short patch cables, I can define any signal path I want out of the computer, through any devices, then back into the computer. Would this be the best way to do it?

Any other thoughts? Thanks all for your help!

just my opinion...

focus on recording through a nice signal chain and minimize the amount of "looping" from dig to analog...

Having tried this I would have to side with Steve's opinion. Things used to get messed up with delays and artifacts, but this was before the days of superfast ASIO drivers and high resolution/sampling rate audio cards.

Getting the sound right on the way in is goes a long way at mix down.

Knowing a good sound ... or a sound that will suit the end result is not so easy to learn. Keep practicing. Experience is everything.

I do think that with each generation the "In the Box" stuff does get better. The I/O and converters also get better.

Much of this can hinge on expectations and methods of working. This has not changed since home multi-trackers arrived on the market decades ago.
Quantity of Channels vers Quality of Channels.
This is still the same today.

The Lynx might be a good sound card BUT it is only 4 in 4 out and so for many people this just isn't going to cut it. So something like a S/H 001 on an XP system with an added Light-Pipe box is the only option.

You have to think carefully and chose what best suits your working methods.

I have mixed in the box and with analog I/O. Both have there issues and both have there advantages.
I have a HD up-grade waiting for me and although I said I wouldn't change until my present project is completed .... I had a MAX out of my DSP ....


I'm now thinking I'll make the switch and this will mean a consolidation of my plug base.
Change of computer and change of I/O ....
As you all know ...
I don't like change
change is bad
clown will eat me


:sad:

these are not easy choices no matter what level you work at.

darren-

if you dont compare your mixes to stuff mixed on real consoles, you probably wont be too bummed out. As for your patch bays, I spent 8 12 hour days laying out my bays, so as far as the "right" way to lay out a bay, there is no clear answer to that at all. I did my bays the "right" way for the way I logically see signal flow and can guarantee that another engineer can come into my studio and curse me for doing the bays the way I did...

dave

I still get depressed when I think about the protools rig I purchased a few years ago... tons invested into it.. only a year later they announce the HD upgrade (which was worthless....considering the amount I had to pay for the mix system) I push the mix system to its limits all the time... its never failed me and I can atleast sleep at night knowing I can pay the mortgage next month... Digi has left a bitter taste in my mouth... not because of the HD upgrades but more so because of the "we are no longer supporting" mix system users or the software. I still work in OS 9... out of necessity as I cant afford to *cough* buy some of the plugins I use... (ya ok go on and smack me down for it.. but the majority are guilty of what I admit :\)

Mix++++++ ($24,000)
888/24 X 6 ($20,000)
USD $2000

a year later worth less than half that

PRICELESS!

Well, since this will be my studio, for doing my music, using my workflow, it makes sense that I should stick to what is logical for me.

I cannot afford a giant analog desk.
I cannot afford the time it would take to build an OTB system.
I cannot afford the time and money it would take me to build 16 EQs instead of 4, or 10 compressors instead of 3.

This leaves me with very few option, don't you think?

My only chance at working within these limitations and still getting good quality work done is to mix ITB and loop to outboard. I am not the only one who's thought of this. Several other people have attested to working this way before.

As for 4 ins and outs, I do think that will be enough. I am only recording me. No bands, and no live concerts. And when I mix down, I will be able to loop out four tracks at a time for processing, then bring them back in. The program will need to know the latency, but I don't think that will be an issue.

I have thought about this much more than you give me credit for. Right now, what I'm after are realistic options, not dreams. I've had enough of dreaming.

And don't think I don't appreciate your opinions. I do, really. You guys are a great bunch of people.

Maybe someone out there has an option I haven't thought of...

I will also never buy and use anything ProTools. I do not need to talk to anyone else. If someone out there feels a pressing need to work with me on something, the onus is on them to be compatible with me.

Yes, I'm a hardass, but I'm a hardass that knows what he wants, and what he does not need.

nono

darren your missing the point

"you cant polish a turd into a golden nugget"

keep your focus on the capturing of your sounds (record chain) then you wont NEED to loop things out of the digital world as you would have already recorded your sounds they way they need to be in the mix...

a recording that mixes itself... thats the shit!

that way you'll need minimal processing in during a mix...

you dont need alot of inputs or outputs just a few decent signal paths, mic's and DI's

you'll be ready to roll

*sigh* I really miss the days of the good old cassette four-track. Plug in some instruments, grab a cassette, and record. No reverb, no eq, no compression, and somehow, I got it to sound good.

I guess that's all I really want, is an updated and spiffed-out version of that old four-track. Easy to use, easy to mix, and you could instantly show off the results when you were done.

Tracks that can mix themselves, what an interesting thought...

don't worry, you can fix anything in the mix!
:roll:

This is just a suggestion, probably not useful but anyway:

If you're a keen diy-er, you could always build some A-D / D-A converters like MCS has? That way you could buy the 16chnl Lynx digi-card, and add analogue converters as and when you have them.

I'm told that the Lynx has pretty good performance, but I'm naturally dubious of powering analogue stages from an internal pc SMPS.

Justin

darren-

if you plan on working in the film industry you should reconsider your attitude towards protools. yes it sucks. but all the people competing for your job have it and you dont... It goes far beyond having to talk to other computers. the people that hire you, the line producers and post supervisors are often %110 technophobes and this is especially true on low budget movies. All they know is "protools" when you explain to them that there are other nonlinear recording programs its news to them and you get "so you dont have protools?" and it just creates a lot of needless mess for you. If of course this is a hobby or you just work in the music industry, by all means stay the hell away from digidesign, they are evil. But if you work in the movies you are going to get protools sooner or later.

dave

[quote author="Scenaria"]keep your focus on the capturing of your sounds ...
... a recording that mixes itself... thats the shit! [/quote]

yes


I'm sorry you feel that way about Alsihad.
I'm also sorry that Scenaria has had that experience with the Mix system.

You will hate me.
I was one of the first handful here in Australia to be on a Mix System and I went for a S/H 9600 that I stacked.
Dual Screens and Sample Cell TDM and managed to survive on the internal SCSI.
It remained unchanged until I added a G3 Sonnet card.

I am still running the same system ... sure I swap HardDrives about BUT there has been no extra money on that machine or the system.

Along the way Sample Cell has fallen and so too Master List so I know how it feels and I've had many other system that have come and gone. I could list them ... but I did learn much along the way before I made the big purchase.
I've also have had a few plugs vanish with System and version up-grades.
Apart from the rush to 5.0 to get Midi as I was desperate ... I don't up-grade easily.

I am very well informed and have some very close insiders.
I am an advocate and also a vigorous critic.

I must be one of the last to go for the HD upgrade and my last four purchases have been on the XP LE side of the fence. The world of Computer Audio is a minefield with so may traps.

Even on the HD side of the fence ... the newer Xcell cards would have pissed many people right OFF. I had been sitting tight thinking that an Excell cord card might arrive. It could still yet. BUT my up-grade is at the shop so I will have missed out.

you get that

do your research people and get advice from people that know and pay for things with their own money.

I'm actually trying to limit the amount of DIY I need to do to get up and running. Making my own converters would be too much, I think.

Kruz suggested that I take a look at the RME stuff. The multiface is reputed as being very good, and it gives 8 ins and outs for not much more cost than a Lynx2. There are always options.

hey kev, if you dont do that hd system upgrade now, you might as well not do it at all for a little while, sooner than later they'll stop supporting the hd platform for whatever new bullshit they cook up and you'll be in the same boat that scenaria and everyone else that bought the "current" version on the verge of an upgrade was in.

Its not like the designer in room #3L walks into fabrication with a design and in three days the new system is being boxed and shipped. Digi KNOWS for MONTHS in advance they have a new system coming, but continue to sell the old system with no warning and no promise to upgrade users who purchase within say 3 months of the release. Just evil, evil, evil to the core company. ugh, I'll spare you the rest of my rant which Im sure everyone has heard before.

dave

[quote author="soundguy"]if you plan on working in the film industry you should reconsider your attitude towards protools.[/quote]

I plan only on making my own films, not working in the film industry. I know that sounds an odd statement, but there is an underground market for films well outside the mainstream, and nobody there cares if you have ProTools or not.

I seem to have this extraordinary talent for starting threads that rapidly take a life of their own... :wink:

dont get me wrong

I think the mix system is still VERY powerful and useful.. I love working with it... my only issue with Digi is the "pressue play" of deliberatly killing support to force users into a newer upgraded system. If general motors did that with their cars boy would the shit hit the ceiling...


sorry but that vette is a 2002 model... we no longer support that year but you can buy the new 2005 for $50,000.00 and we'll give you $20,000 for your 02 as a trade in

Whats wrong with a 002...its cheap, and you are compatible with the rest of the gays..more separat outputs to play with..??
jo

[quote author="Consul"]there is an underground market for films well outside the mainstream, and nobody there cares if you have ProTools or not.[/quote]

this is kind of the market I was talking about...

dave