Mixing In-the-Box with outboard analog gear

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Well, I'm willing to admit my education is not complete in this matter. I fall into the world of the no-budget filmmaker, using whatever is handy to tell stories. We all tend to make do with what we have. And like creating a mix with great audio, in no-budget films, a good script goes a long way.
 
[quote author="soundguy"]hey kev, if you dont do that hd system upgrade now, you might as well not do it at all for a little while, sooner than later they'll ...[/quote]

correct

:thumb:

I said I was well informed and even so there is always the gamble. Too much knowledge can be a bad thing.
Marketing can stop a product going to the market if the company thinks it will not serve their needs.
There is always more products in the background and most never see the light of day.

MOA can not be trusted ... except to screw you if you don't watch them carefully and even them ... in full view they will come at you.

I started a thread in the Brewery ... Apple and Logic could be very interesting.
Final Cut is fair and have caused Avid to make some changes.

Back to Audio.
Yes I am moving to HD with one XL card and the cheapest I/O. I'm going to continue with my AI3 ... :shock:

The next level of PT may be a side step to a new may of thinking and it will cause a great stink.
Digital Audio is going to get harder ... not easier I think.

My gamble is that I will stick on the HD XL and perhaps buy a second SH card ... for a very long time and may even be to the death.
I have a locked in way of working and think I can survive indefinitely ... yes a big call.

Look I can be wrong
I kept my XT Adats just that little bit too long in the expectation of archive jobs ....
:sad:
I blew that one
anyone want a pair of pristine XT's ?
 
Maybe I'm off topic (Im french and sometimes in this thread have problem to understand things you said ;)), and maybe you know it already, but there's Ardour (http://ardour.org), which is release under GPL, runs with linux *and OSX*. It can be free, but people working on it wish people will make donation. It's like a Protools clone, it's still in developpement but the v1.0 will be out soon. Sure you won't need to pay for new version, and can upgrade when you want.
 
Oh, I know all about Ardour. I was on the mailing list over a year ago. :grin:

I don't know how far they are on the OS-X port, though. If it's working, that would be fantastic.
 
Hi Consul!!

Just my 2pennies......I have the lynx2a and it sounds awesome - very good for the money....much better than a number of converters I have heard including RME. It is a very well respected card.

As far as the interface goes - it offers great expansion. I'm sure your rig will grow even if you may not plan on it!! Thats why I got it...RME may well have the best drivers (for PC anyways) but apart from MADI, they are still stuck with ADAT as their main digital format.

IMO its old tech and becomes very limited at high BW (96k - which you will want to use eventually)...the lynx cards allow for adat expansion via an optional card if you need it (for now a lot of gear you come into contact with is likely to use the adat protocol)...

BUT they offer a 16ch AES-3 expansion board which will provide full 16ch operation at 96k. Adding more I/O is likely to mean that you are tracking a lot of inputs in which case you'll want good AD or you want to mix analog meaning you'll need good DA (small DIY summing mixer??). If this sounds like the future you're planning its worth bearing in mind....even if you start off just tracking one at a time in stereo etc.

Of course adding extra lynx cards as you grow means you can tailor your I/O to your needs and be at peace knowing that all you're converters will incur the same latency...critical if you want to process tracks to and from the DAW. Its a flexible solution.

I agree with the rest of the guys about getting good signal in...but of course running virtual instruments through a pair of APIs or coloured box is a cool thing to do when printing them to audio ready for mixing. Can help reduce the 'digitus' of the software instruments. Just make sure you nudge/trim off the extra system latency added to your recorded audio. You can calculate your system latency for a specific brand of converter...see Sound on Sound for a recent article on doing that.

In short, a lynxA with a few quality pres and eq/comps for tracking would be a great solution with the right software but the more work you get the more your going to get frustrated with the whole ProTools thing......

Protools is everywhere and having would make your life a lot easier.....it can be a pain in the ass to transfer projects to and especially from Protools.

PT is used a load in the video market from what I hear.

As long as your sure you dont want to consider Protools I would go for what you have planned, as you say you have thought about it loads already.

What software are you thinking of using, Garageband?

I think I went on a bit....?

Cheers Tom
 
Actually, I was planning on using Ardour. :green: The issue at hand now is Linux drivers for the Lynx2 cards. OSS has one, and though I don't mind paying if I have to, last I checked, Ardour/JACK didn't like using anything but ALSA, which means no Lynx2 driver. This may be fixed by now, but it doesn't matter at the moment anyway, since this is all at least half a year into the future anyway. Who knows what will be available then... :wink:
 
In my studio I use Nuendo in a dual CPU Mac G4, and I have purchased a lot of high end plug-ins. I have done a lot of work here both commercially and for myself. I also work in and maintain another studio with a Protools HD system. Here's my experience FWIW.

When I started off with DAW recording, I was fanatical about keeping everything in the digital domain once it was recorded. I have a Yamaha 02R desk, which I feed 24 channels digitally (TDIF) from the computer. The reason I keep the console is that while the 02R has poor preamps, as a desk it sounds fine, has EQ's which are very good for most remedial work as opposed to real tone shaping, and it allows me FX sends, Cue mixing, slating, talkback, you name it. The big one though is that it has no problem summing as many tracks to stereo as I can throw at it, it is full of DSP's designed to do just that and it does it better than any internal computer mixdown.

Back to the original post, I did all my compression and EQ with plug-ins until a while ago when I had a conversation with a friend with protools and he mentioned that he got a much better result with sending tracks out to his Distressor and back in, rather than using the various plug ins such as the BF 1176 plug. His comment was that all the plug ins had a "samenes" too them.

So I came home, loaded a vocal track and proceeded to re-record it over and over via the A/D and D/A path of my MOTU interface to see how many stages of going through conversions until I started noticing artifacts. Suffice to say, I now couldn't care less about running a track out through my converters, into a Urei 1176 and back into the DAW, and then simply zooming in and visually aligning it to the original track, which I then mute. All of a sudden it is like the old days - it is so easy to pull a great bass or vocal sound when you just feed it through an 1176, Vocal Stresser or Summit TLA-100, I regret all the messing around and tweaking I did with the plug ins.

I never get the result I want from plug ins, it is always a tweak-fest. I never use delays or reverbs in a computer, even a cheap unit like a Kurzweil Rumour, TC M.one or Roland SRV 3030 eats most plug ins. Anyone who says otherwise probably has never A/B'd the two directly and is talking from "memory". Not to mention CPU overhead.

Altiverb? Sounds great doing real accoustic space emulations, which is neat for classical and film work, but for rock and roll real is not usually best, colored and interesting usually rules here, I know you can ping it with an impulse response from a 224XL or whatever, but it is so CPU intensive, and with people foolishly getting rid of their desks and just using plug-ins there are plenty of good cheap hardware delays and reverbs out there second hand now which don't load your CPU, are hands on tweakable and have a resale value unlike software.

After making an entire album using software EQ's and compressors in the computer, and then doing the next project feeding outboard compressers and EQ's via the converters back to the computer, I will never use another plug-in on an important track element again, not only for sonic reasons, but also because it is so much quicker to get the desired result, even with the alignment time included.

While I am up on my high horse, my bemusement of plug ins took a furter turn for the worst when I did a shoot out between various virtual instruments against the real thing. A virtual Prophet V, a Yamaha CS-80 plug in, the Virtual PPG, and virtual Korg MS-20. The idea was simple - play the real thing beside the plug in through the same system. Some plugs were better than others, but all sounded like thin, papery MP3's beside the real machines. The CS-80 plug was instantly recognisable as a CS-80 sound, but was so thin sounding as to be laughable. ( BTW I must say that despite the fact that I now own 2 CS-80's, I used a CS-60 for this test just because was much easier to move, and even the CS-60 which has half the voice layering of an '80 still ate the plug in). So go for the plug ins for convenience, but really I think they are just hard work to make sound passable.

Well, there was a bunch of opinions from me, I'm sure many will disagree, but I really believe hardware rules, and in the spirit of The Lab, why be satisfied with a cheap Behringer sounding plug when you can use a nice piece of outboard? Don't worry at all about the extra conversion steps, modern converters are good enough to do it, and the sound of the real outboard outweighs any tiny damage done by the converters.
 
[quote author="Scenaria"]

Mix++++++ ($24,000)
888/24 X 6 ($20,000)
USD $2000

a year later worth less than half that

PRICELESS![/quote]

I bought a Mix system with a d24 and mix farm and a dsp farm (which is really plenty for me) plus two 888/24's and an 882/20 plus a Mac G4 500 with a gig of ram for $2800 a few months ago. It's INSANE how cheap these systems have become. This system gets me a bazillion tracks, plenty of I/O, superb sound quality, and all for pittance.

I'm sad for how much you had to pay! I learned my lesson watching the prices, and was amazed at how low the prices on the D24 systems got in no time. You can regularly find 888/24's on eBay for around $600. Insane. These are great quality converters.

At any rate, with ProTools, it's NOT worth it to buy a first generation system. 192KHz is cool and all, but my 48KHz recordings sound damn good. It's certainly not worth the $20000 price difference. At any rate, I'll just wait for Digi's next system and then buy and HD system for $2500 when that happens.

As for mixing in the box, I've done it a lot and think it sounds quite good. However, all of my best recordings were done on 2" tape mixed on a nice discrete analog board with automation. You can do damn good recordings in ProTools, mixed in ProTools.
 
dear Friends,

for people ready to take A PLUNGE for PT etc should consider Soundscape as a system with about equal if not better and absolutely WAY FASTER performance, running on cheap PC's that don't crash 10 % of all of the Mactroubels i've witnessed over the past 10 years of pro studio activity (even with microsoft Widows).

This is no plug for the company just based upon my honest comparison (i too was ready to put some HEAVY cash for PT) but checkout www.sydec.be you'll be surprised who works with these systems and where!

For audio as well as TV related jobs.

Be welcome at my place to find out more, or send me an email/PM if you want to know more.

Worked in places as Olympic studios London, Whitfield Street and various others in this league, i recommand thinking twice about going for the so called standard of DAW's... My bank stayed happy after my purchase of my multiple setups...

Also Soundscape STILL offers upgrades for their older systems and even let you do an upgrade where you can KEEP your old system on top of a very fair reduction you get for going for the newer systems.

my 0.03 :)

a very happy Soundscape user,
Tony dB

PS rereading my post seems to me as having made a shameless plug, wll if this can save you moneys for more DIY, then i consider this ok :oops: :grin:
 

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