Grounding

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Aharon

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
121
Location
Ontario Canada
I have built tube amps and effects boxes but nothing with bipolar supplies until now with the Green Pre and What compressor.
Do I tie the circuit board ground to chassie ground?,if yes,keep it separate as with tube gear or together with mains ground?.
Thanks for any enlightment
Aharon
 
Hi Aharon,

Read this link and your questions will be answered:

http://www.aikenamps.com/StarGround.html

Cheers,
Justin
 
[quote author="thermionic"]
http://www.aikenamps.com/StarGround.html
Justin[/quote]
Star grounding is not practical in the printed - circuit epoque.
And only with triodes this have sense.

You must think transistor or pentode as voltage-to current
convertor. This device can broke disturbing loops via internal construction,
but only if external passives are properly placed on the printed - circuit.

In the time of triodes this was impossible. Internal resistance of
triode is so low. Relicts from this
epoqe are interstage transformers and star grounding.

xvlk
 
Well,I wanted to know if the 0V/Gnd was to be connected to the chassie or not and here seems to be the answer:(from the ssl project page)
"The chassis should be connected to 0V at - and only at - the ground (pin1) of one of the input XLR's. In case you choose a IEC power inlet connector with a power ground, you should connect it to this point also."

Aharon
 
I dissagree that star grounding, or permutations of it, are relics. Grounding causes more problems to DIY (amd some professional) builders than any other single issue. Single point grounding effectively eliminates this, or at least minimises it. You certainly can not stick a ground anyplace on the chassis, or circuit board for that matter, and expect a quiet circuit.

Grounding problems show up with all active devices, triodes, pentodes, transistors, opamps, all of them. Careful consideration of ground is probably the most important design function next to "what do I want this circuit to do?". If you just take a look at the posts hete, you will see that many wrestle with this problem.
 
[quote author="thomasholley"]I dissagree that star grounding, or permutations of it, are relics. You certainly can not stick a ground anyplace on the chassis, or circuit board for that matter, and expect a quiet circuit.
[/quote]
I do not say this. There is other grounding systems (input and output grounding, linear grounding) than star grounding. In tube techniqe
this is common, but tube techniqe IS relict, but our circuit theory
is formed for tubes and then tubes circuit have good parameters.
If we want repassed tube theory to the transistors, transistor
amps will have worse parameters. Because there is not theory for
transistors, but transistors with tube theory reincarnated.
To make this theory usable many passive stuff in along the transistors must be used and this stuff take parameters of transistors down.
Voltage amplifier is example of triode-like theory.
Current amp is good for bipolars, Voltage- to current amp is good for FETS.
Grounding problems show up with all active devices, triodes, pentodes, transistors, opamps, all of them.
Yes, but the same problems are not solved by the same ways.
i.e.: in tube epoque power rectifiers and filters was separate and via power wires
ground loop could be formed. Now - put series stabilizer near the amp
and loop is broken.
Careful consideration of ground is probably the most important design function next to "what do I want this circuit to do?". If you just take a look at the posts hete, you will see that many wrestle with this problem.
O.K., but I have not see any post here to give diferent view to circuits
with different elements. And this must be.

xvlk
 
I agree with you that different components will require different techniques in ground, and that circuit board layout is different than point to point wiring. But we still use both and must deal with both. Even when circuit boards are used, wire is often also used to connect boards together in some fashion, deliver power, transfer signal, etc. How you ground these must always be considered as a primary aspect of the layout.

I think one of the main differences between tubes and silicon devices is simply the lower potential difference you see with more modern components, and the way we use them in circuit, current amplifier as opposed to voltage amplifier for example. That difference asside, Ohms law still applies. The more resistance your ground plane has, the more effect it will have on your circuit noise figure. Star grounding is not the answer in all cases, certainly not in all circuit board layouts, but some permutation of it will work in a lot of cases. For example, grounds from three circuit boards connected in series, i.e. daisy chained together, will almost always cause noise. Take the same circuit boards an connect the grounds in parallel, i.e. star ground, and they will be less noisey.

The layout of the circuit board itself usually does not lend itself easily to star, or single point grounding, and is usually better done with larger grounding traces, well placed, or a ground plane. On this I think we agree. My main point is that grounding technique seems to be the single biggest reason for trouble in most of the DIY projects.

If we want repassed tube theory to the transistors, transistor
amps will have worse parameters. Because there is not theory for
transistors, but transistors with tube theory reincarnated.
To make this theory usable many passive stuff in along the transistors must be used and this stuff take parameters of transistors down.

Transistors evolved from tubes so naturally some of the same things apply to each. They are both amplifiers They both must have passive components to function in a given circuit. These passive components do not necessarily make the transistor parameters worse. In some cases they make them better, but in every case, they are necessary to make a functioning circuit.

The one common thread in all of these circuits though, is they must all have some way to return current to a common point, usually ground. I think it makes much more difference in the noise generated in a good circuit, what your ground scheme is, than what components you use. The people here who design circuit boards for the projects seem to have an excellent grasp of this. The few problems that do crop up though are usually related to some error in grounding.

I just do not believe that any grounding technique is antiquated and should be discounted. I may have misunderstood you, but I think you suggest that this is the case. My assertion is that many of the oldest techniques still apply to modern situations. Ohms law still applies in every case for ground technique and impropper grounding is the number one downfall of our group.
 
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