jensenmann

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« on: October 21, 2006, 09:36:01 AM »
Some days ago Tony dB asked me if I wanted to do some prototype testing. He got some trannies from Edcor which were supposed to have the same specs like a Lundahl 5402 (which is very popular in G1176, G9, Gpultec). Well, no need to say I was very interested and so he sent me one prototype.
I soldered it parallel to the 5402 in my G1176 and terminated it with 1k, the same way it is done with the Lundahl. Then I recorded some tracks through this thingy in stereo, left channel is the Lundahl output, right channel is the Edcor output.

Kubi was so kind to host the soundfiles here (43MB!!!):
http://www.kubarth.com/temp/groupdiy/1176_uebertragervergleich.tar.bz2

track 1 is my humble bassplaying with tons of low B-string (for judging the lowend!)
track 2 is a recording of one of my former bands
track 3 is my voice

Listen to it and let us know what you think!
I guess Tony will add some pics here soon.

 :guinness: to Tony for making this possible
Jens
Quote from: PRR
The tubes of course don't care what frequency they distort


ChrioN

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2006, 10:11:03 AM »
Smart thinking with the left-right thing!

I think I liked right the most.
"All PCB traces are curved to emulate the electrical response of point-to-point wiring" -Drip

Michael Krusch

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2006, 12:17:52 PM »
Keep in mind that the Edcor channel is louder than the Lundahl channel. If the level are adjusted, they sound quite simular. The Lundahls has a little bit more highs, but only a little bit.

kiira

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2006, 01:50:41 PM »
I didn't look at which channel was which yet, or read replies. It was kind of hard to hear any fifference on my cheeseball laptop and radio shack cans but I liked the righ tchannel better... it seemed to be fuller and had better bass. BUT, it was also a little louder in that channel especially on the band track (I liked the song).

I think a good way to make these comparisons would be to mix them to mono and then interleave sections in each wav so the go back and forth. I'm sure I could tell the diferences easily on my good stereo system or through my monitors in the music room.

OK, looking at xformer channels now. Wow... the channel I liked the best was the Edcor.

Kiira

jensenmann

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2006, 06:08:10 PM »
Quote from: RogerFoote
Does Edcor have a deisgn number for this transformer?

Sounds like a good group buy candidate?quote]


It still is a prototype. They want to get some feedback from us before they make it happen.
Groupbuy isn´t necessary, I guess. Don´t they sell in US direct? EU distributor is our dear member Tony dB. He will come up here with some more infos soon.

What I can say so far is that the core has the same dimensions like a 2503/profile4804 but it comes with pins instead of wires.

Soundwise I´d say the Lundahl is more neutral and the Edcor more HiFi sounding. I like the lowend performance of the Edcor, though. It´s really phatt.

The 1 or 2 dB dfference between the channels were no recording mistake. It´s what the trannies did. It seems that the Edcor recieved some more windings....

 :guinness:
Jens
Quote from: PRR
The tubes of course don't care what frequency they distort

NewYorkDave

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2006, 12:05:48 AM »
Sorry to be a party-pooper, but if you had the transformers connected in parallel, that's not a good test. The reactances of the two primaries can interact with one another and produce misleading results. Also, with running two terminated output transformers, you're operating the amplifier into half of the normal load impedance.

I suggest disconnecting whichever transformer is not being used. Of course, you only need to break the circuit, not physically remove the transformer.

jensenmann

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2006, 10:22:03 AM »
Of course you´re right, Dave. But even if the output amp is loaded too high and one transformer is loading the other one additionally both trannies still do have the same operating circumstances. And that´s what I wanted to have. The test was supposed to be a comparison between those iron, I never wanted to simulate the exact situation for a single tranny in the G1176. The big advantage of this setup is that you can switch from left to right and hear the same source through the same comp recorded at the same time with the tranny being the only varying factor in the chain. This leaves a lot of disturbing factors out of the way.
 :guinness:
Jens
Quote from: PRR
The tubes of course don't care what frequency they distort

chrissugar

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2006, 10:38:22 AM »
Quote from: "NewYorkDave"
Sorry to be a party-pooper, but if you had the transformers connected in parallel, that's not a good test.


Exactly what I thought when reading the first post.
Jensen, Dave is right. Unfortunately the two transformers interact and when you record the 5402 you will hear some "personality" from the clone, and when you record the clone you will also hear some of the 5402 "personality". Not to mention the fact that the circuit is loaded much more and that will also afect the sound compared to the right loading.
A good way to do the test is to use a 2way 4pole switch that will include in the circuit one transformer or the other.
Or why not simply record the test file with exactly the same setings/levels with the 5402 in the circuit, and later with the clone.

chrissugar
Christian Mike Sugar
        CMS-LAB

EmRR

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2006, 10:41:13 AM »
I agree with Dave though; you want a real comparison of the iron as it would exist in a finished unit, by itself.    Why wouldn't you want to simulate the exact situation?  One transformer may have an 'advantageous' incorrect loading over the other.  You don't really have a quickie comparison here either, since the levels aren't matched.  You need to run identical pre-recorded program material through each one (connected by itself only) and line then up in a workstation (position and level - try the phase reverse cancellation method while lining them up) to really know what's going on.   Otherwise even a tiny level difference can easily fool you into thinking the louder one is better.   That's why CD's are so damn loud now, right?   I've done this sort of thing many times, and 1/2 db can throw all perception way off.
Best,

Doug Williams
Electromagnetic Radiation Recorders

"I think this can be better. Some kind of control that's intuitive, not complicated like a single knob" - Crusty

"Back when everything sounde

tony dB

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2006, 12:14:57 PM »
Jens, thanks for your testing and informing us. Is there a possiblity that you can redo the test with the Lundahl disconnected while recording the Edcor?
I will try to get my own G-1176 ready this week to perform similar tests over here too. I need to install both the Lundahl and the Edcor as for the moment there's a discrete in/out used.


Samuel Groner

    Zürich, Switzerland
  • Posts: 2935
LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2006, 03:32:35 PM »
Quote
Unfortunately the two transformers interact.

I think if the source impedance is low enough they don't. Not sure if this is the case in this setup. The IC might distort a bit more, but it does so for both transformers.

Samuel

jensenmann

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2006, 04:19:15 PM »
We´re talking about the output iron, don´t we? There´s no IC in this area, only a pair of BD135/136 driving the iron. This stage should be beefy enough to drive those trannies without stress.

@ Tony: therefore I need to unsolder the Lundahl from the PCB. That´s PITA since this G1176 is a finished unit with soldered wiring in a small case.

I´m thinking more of doing the same test again with another G1176 with OEPs so that we can hear the difference between the Edcor and the OEP output. But since time is short right now it will surely take some days to find a free minute.
Jens
Quote from: PRR
The tubes of course don't care what frequency they distort

tony dB

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2006, 06:00:50 PM »
Jens,

that's ok by me, take your time, we're doing similar testing overhere.

tony dB

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2006, 09:42:11 AM »
As far as from the feedback given to me by a few EE's, Jens' test setup was not bad at all.

When I play both files at equal loudness (via 2 channels on my board) the difference between them is even smaller. This makes me conclude that the Edcor IS soundwise very close to the Lundahl, to say the least.

@Jens,

Can you put the same stuff tru your 1176 without the Edcor parallel to the Lundahl? That way we could hear howmuch the Edcor influences the Lundahl without you having to unsolder anything exept the Edcor.
Probably, the Lundahl will influence the Edcor in a similar way.

jensenmann

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2006, 12:20:39 PM »
Quote from: "tony dB"
@Jens,

Can you put the same stuff tru your 1176 without the Edcor parallel to the Lundahl? That way we could hear howmuch the Edcor influences the Lundahl without you having to unsolder anything exept the Edcor.
Probably, the Lundahl will influence the Edcor in a similar way.


That´s hard to do because my bassplaying and my vocals were live, not from tape/file. And I am definitely not total recall :razz:
When I find a little time I´ll figure it out with the song I recorded.
Jens
Quote from: PRR
The tubes of course don't care what frequency they distort

louder

LL5402 vs Edcor prototype in a G1176
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2006, 06:47:13 PM »
alo jens
did you connected the edcor reversed like with the 5402?
could you tell me how to hook up the edcor?
best regards
pedro



 

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