Patch Bay Gurus: Need help!

I am so sick of my patching system. I could fricken burn it all and be happier. Please give me some ideas guys. I rarely find info on professional patchbays and proper terminations and use of normalling...

Heres where Im at with gear. I have a bunch of outboard that I almost always use to complicate things.


I think my gearlist is probably alot like the common studio would have. Therefore this post can probably help more than just me.

Gear List

Console. 70's Souncraft Series 2 16 channel and a 24 channel.
8 buss, strip has fixed eq, pre, aux send * 4,
transformers throughout, I use one for tracking the other for
monitoring.

Medium. 24 track 2 inch, or 24 tracks of ADA

Outboard. 16 channels Mic PRE (api, tele, trident...)
14 channels Compression (spectra, dbx, urei, G, ..)
12 Channels EQ (api, G, aphex, ...)
REverbs, delays and other racked toys...

4 Different rooms in the barn are wired for players. Whole bunch of ins- outs.


So some things are obvious like signal flow. I usually go to my racked pres before the console pres so they are almost always patched. My latest thought are to have an either or for the medium choice plus an elco to connect them in a chain. I don't go for the lock up the 2 inch and most people understand why so I dont think I need both on the patchbay. If using two inch connect it, If digital connect that. If recording tape, mixin digi, connect together and dump.

How should I be connecting an unbalanced line out from a channel to a balanced recorder. Im sure the busses are balanced but not the channel outs. Also some of the various inputs are unbalanced as well. things like aux ins and echo returns...

If Im right I should ground pin 3 on the unbalanced side?

How do most people go about interconnecting Outboard Pre's?

Its not to convienient to be patching them when I know Ill use them every session. I suppose I could normal them to the console line inputs but that seems like overkill as far as signal path. However Its not convinient as far as organization goes to have them off the console entirely.

How does everyone approach using outboard pres. Take for example my API 512's I know Im gonna use them on the tracking everytime.

Who uses Mult's out there? I have some set up but would like to hear what everybody uses them for.

Who has a boom box or cosumer stereo in their studio and how do you compensate for the +4 , -10 difference? (Im assuming a pair of resistors?)

Cableing. Whats your favorite multipair and why?

How are people driving instruments levels through the walls and long cable runs? For example , Musician in control room, amplifier in 1st story live room. about a 100 ft balanced run.

Since my first console, Trident 24, Ive redone the bays many times, each time uping my knowledge and piecing together little bits of knowledge from across the internet. But they still suck! Ive read that the word normal means that the patchbays are preset to the way your studio would"normally" set up.

If you can contribute a bit it would certainley make for a good thread.

Will

Hey Will, sounds like you just need to make decisions thats all. It can be quite overwhelming when you have all that equipment.

If you use your external mike pres tight into the mixer then I suggest you normal them. This elliminates 1 patchcord. On the other hand patching the pre to a compressor or eq (or nothing) then right into your 24 track is the way to stay cleaner.

I imagine you have your 24 track normalled into the mixer? Normallizing those will save you more clutter etc. Normalled connections are more work at first but help you forever (if you make the right choices on what is normalled)

I would put everything on the patchbay! But you probably know all this already, you just need some nudge in 1 directions ('cause there are so many).

The balance unbalanced thing I haven't have to deal with in along time so I'll pass on that. But I remember I only had 1 problem when I did do it and it was 1 ground that was connected where it shouldn't have been. It depends on the equipment down the line. You have to try lifting the ground on one side and see what happens. On my setup I was lucky it all worked, but I had friends that had horific ground loops, hums etc.

Hope that helps a bit.

jim

I have two sets of patchbays. I have input patches for taking my 24 inputs from the room so that I can patch to any preamp or channel of the mixer or recorder. I have it normalled so that the inputs come in and normally go to the corresponding number on the console's preamp. I can break this by patching a cord into any of the preamps I choose and then patching the output of the preamp to any of the console or recorder's inputs.

My insert patchbay is self explainatory as are the output patches.

One thing I'm doing since I'm rearranging my studio and getting a new mixer is just wiring up what I need one thing at a time, making sure it works and that it works the way I want it to work. Wiring ALL the patchbays and the tape machine and the outboard stuff and ALL of the mixers I/Os is a lot of work and really frustrating for me because invariably something didn't work, I'd have to track it down, undo a lotta stuff - or else I would decide I wanted it another way. So when I get the Studiomaster in the place I'm just going to wire in the tape machine and the computer I/Os on the half normalled patch box. Then as I progress I'll wire in what I need for mixing down, compression, remixing or tracking with effects etc.

Kiira

...

drpat, it is all good advice regarding grounds, but the common ting is to lift at INPUTS, the theory being that any noise currents in the shields will go backwards to the source rather than to the load chassis. With a large console, it is usually the best to just lift everything at the equipment and connect at the console. Ed Evans at the Power Station taught this to me and I stopped lifting output shields at SSL DL panels for a much cleaner install. But than I tech'ed a medium ProControl setup last week that had all patchbay shields bussed, to a terminal strip, connected to nothin'. No chassis or nothing. Still it was quiet within tolerance. Each situation is different.

Normals are great, but you have to decide what your "normal" situation is. Treat your outboard like an extension of the console. If you do not use the console pre's, then normal the mic lines to the external pres and normal them to the console. I would not normal pres to compression or EQ. That can be patched.

With the changing multitrack source, ELCO patchbays are better than 24 patches. Real slicksters wire a 48PDT switcher box to switch between a 24 track and 24 DAW tracks. That requires tight wiring and attention to shielding.

You want to start a session with minimal patching. Panels in the rooms could be hard-wired to specific pre's, so you have to change the XLR to go from pre A to pre B. That would eliminate normalled rows but lessen flexibility. If you know that you will only use blah-blahs on the drums, then wire them in. But if you ever put a cello in there. . . It is a balance.

A 100 ft balanced instrument run. . . what instrument is balanced? The common trick for guitars (unbalanced) is to use passive DI boxes back-to-back. That kind of setup could be dedicated on a few "Instrument Ties" with the trannies mounted on the respective panels. Done that with Jensens with success, but it costs.

Each studio is special. and it takes some time to understand what someone WANTS, explain to them what they can GET for the budget, and reconsile the two. Plan the normal situation and implement it with patchbays. When you comission it, start with only console and monitors connected. Tame that and add externals (CD DAT Cass, etc), then normalled reverbs, then normalled multitracks, then normalled outboard, noting any increase in 2Mix noise.

One of the big hum problems with a console like yours is with the normalled reverbs and multitracks. You may just have to use some iron on 'verbs to stem any noise problems due to unbalanced console I/O's. Pay attention to noise floor when you connect them. The problem with treating a small console setup like a large console setup is that there is not a huge chunk of metal at the center sucking all the noise to it's potential, so you make your plans, build and connect in stages listening to the noise floor as you go along.
Mike

...

The common thought on this is that the flow of noise is opposite of the flow of information. And like we both said, it is done both ways. I prefer to lift at the equipment these days, I and O, except for I on mic pres with P48.

It certainly is important to plan the most common signal flow connections, and make them normalled.
Mike

Do you guys strap the grouds on your pres, and if so do you strap them on outboad pres as well? I got a used tt bay once that had buss bar all the way around all of the grounds, this must have been connected to a star somewhere. I have niether my grounds lifted or my bays starred Should I?

Back in the ADAT days I saw a studio here with a relay set up for switching mediums. Seems like a really good idea but a little considering you decide what medium your using before you record. I like the elco idea.

Unless you have a huge console already with bussed shield wiring in the patchbay, I would not do that with outboard mic pres. If you have phantom within different boxes you might get some wierdness. Better to have "private" P48 paths, and let them share a common chassis connection through AC only.

I decide on a case-by-case basis. I always look at the biggest mass of metal in the room. If it is a console (even if under a complete sheath of plastic), then I would buss shields and make them part of the console's metal. It the setup is more like a group of equal weighted boxes, ie no Neve or even Soundtracks as the console, then I let the electrics do the common ground connection and pay attention to how I am dealing with the shielding of the equipment wiring. The Appendix of Exceptions is larger than The Book of Rules.

The commissioning is always the same. Inna Les Paul stylee. He explained it to me over popcorn in Moonachie: start with the monitoring, add externals, add normalled verbs, add "multitracks", then add outboard. Keep listening to the "master fader" with the "console faders" cranked. So many present-day equipment setups blur these lines, so insert your own nomenclature, and you can still go in stages.

You can do everything and keep it quiet, but then connect cable to the modem and get a hum on a master fader. Check as you go along.
Mike

I finally finished(Lie but Im operational again) my patchbays and owe a pound of flesh to this thread. I can't believe the difference in versatility and sonic improvement that came out of this job. In the end I decided to go for a semi purist route for my setup.

My mic lines either go straight to console pre's or each room has a certain set of mic lines that go to my new XLR bay. These are intended to be used for my outboard pre's. Outboard pre inputs are also on an xlr bay.

Tape playback and DAW playback ended up on big ole elco's that tie directly to my playback console. Their inputs are also on elcos. With this setup I can simply swap elcos for 2 inch users or daw users. Drop to digi by connecting them all together. Sweet like Money!!

Alot of stuff I would have put on my bays like echos and delays... ended up being hardwired direct to console. I also re ran my room ties cutting around 30 feet off the overall length.

Yesterday was my trial run and I was so excited to hear stuff that I wasnt hearing before. It seemed that every two years I was getting the itch to rewire and was never happy with the results until now.

As far as normalling outboard goes I put everything on the bays but left them isolated.

The pile of cabling left over is an awesome sight. Hell I even had a long enough piece of multicore to add ten more lines to the downstairs piano room!!

This thread was very helpful in decisions that I would have never made before. I was well on my way to putting every little connection on the bays and normalling everything but this thread made me realize this idea, with DAW mixing, has become less important.

So thanks to DR Pat, Mike the Sodderboy, Roger, Svart, kiira, Bluzzi and all the others who contributed to my studio wiring. Your help has been unmatched in any attempt at rewiring and gratefully appreciated!! My first session with the new wiring is tonight so I am real excited!!

Thanks

Will

Good point Roger,

Luckily must of my stuff has no lift option. Everything sounds perfect right now except for my spectra 610's which might be wanting the ground everywhere as it sounded great before I lifted the input (thank god for shrinkwrapped grounds in the wings!). Anyways like I said before the real deal comes tonight and happily I am very positive about these new changes.

Thaks All

Rog,
I am having a tough time making a short list of outboard that has shield-lift switches on either input or output.
DI's, of course. GML has a chassis-signal ground barrier strip connection. Many power amps have in INPUT lift.

Stuff without shield-lift switches: Orban, dbx, UrEi, Neve, GML, ADL, JoeMeek, ff, Manley, Eventide, Marshal, Roland, Aphex, Summit, RCA, Fairchild, Telefunken, TC, Pye, EMT, Sony, Yamaha, TubeTech, Logitec, BSS, Bryston, Meyer, Pultec, API, Alan Smart, Dolby, Tascam, Fostex, Seck, Neve. . . dang now I am repeating myself.

Are you thinking of synths or some semi-demi stuff?

Help me out here!
Mike

semi-demi is "boutique MI" stuff. Semi-pro with a Starbucks price!
So the list of outboard with shield-lift switches is so short, that rather than one for the Rule Book it should be added to the Library of Exceptions.
Mike

I must say Solderboy is spot on in all points... as far as sheild lifting at inputs, think of it this way: do you want noise injected near an amp input? I think not! As so aptly stated, the best method is buss ground at the patchbay, terminated to console ground, and lift at all gear ins & outs. If it is a small system, you can get away with seperate grounds at the patchbay, and lifting at each input, except for Mic Pres..

If I was planning a live system that would accept other people's racks, or planning a live rack for someone who travels, I would have things like channels of patchable transformers, "shield lift" out over in patches, or say a tie panel with shield lift switches.
But in a studio, especially "in-house", those flexiblility options would be greatly reduced.

In reality, you plan and talk about a lock-out with someone's rolling racks for weeks. And then they roll-in with a completly different sitch than discussed. They ask for a 50 foot Mac serial cable and 96 channels of interface and say, "You don't have it? This place is pathetic!"

Lecheim!
Mike

Reflect on what you just wrote. If someone builds a Gssl and ties pin 1 to chassis at each connector, or busses the four pins to tech earth near the PSU, then the "output grounds" will be "noisier" than the inputs?

Or a Pultec clone. I am only familiar with the originals, and they reference the I/O shields to respective transformer centertaps. An output centertap will be noisier than an input centertap?

There is a confusion sometimes with useage of the words earth, ground, common, 0vl, shield and chassis. Think about what your reference is when using the word "grounds".

Any audio path is made of a chain of amplifiers. High gain, frequency or level dependent, distribution, summing etc. The theory is that you want to throw the noise into the chassis behind you, and not deal with it in the one ahead of you. The PSU does not make I or O shield any dirtier than the other. It is about draining noise picked-up in the shield and preventing any currents caused by multiple chassis connections.
Mike

I checked some schematics and I am wrong about the centertaps, but my premise is still the same. And any shield reffed at a high current area is bad design, which does not make it to a final product. The shield-lift switches and high-current ground shield connections are anomalities that really do not exist in pro audio equipment, as I said before, and cannot be used for justification for any wiring guidelines. Look, do you think that guys like Les Paul or Al Grundy are just blowing smoke? I did'nt make it up out of a fantasy. I learned it from real people and practiced it for 20 years.

I don't pop corks. Much of what I do is wire recording studios and fix other people's mistakes that they made with the wiring. Their mistakes keep me busy, help me refine how I do things, and I share my experience here as much as I can. Inna banter stylee.

Otherwise it's just BORING :green: Good to see that you are busy too.

Mike