My first mod (Trion 8000 valve mic)

Hi,
First post here and I have decided to mod a CAD Trion 8000.
I was wondering if any of you guys have had any luck with one?
Origionaly I was going to just upgrade the valve and base but I have been informed that I am better off upgrading the transformer and the cap between the capsule and the rest of the mic (I cant remember what the proper name was for the position of the cap).
So I have looked at the cap and the transformer and I cant make out any values on them.
If someone has a diagram with values on I would be very greatfull if they post it.
Also any advice on upgrade parts would be exelent.

The valve I got as standard is a Shuguang 6J1 and I have been told that a mil spec EF95 with a ceramic base and gold pin retainers(?) would be better.

Finnaly I have been recomended that for the cap replacement I use a Panasonic styrine type and not a Black Gate (as recomended by Peter Qvortrup).

PLEASE HELP THE NNNNNNNNooooooooob.
FTI

http://tubedata.tigahost.com/tubedata/sheets/095/6/6J1.pdf

inside picture might help.

Cheers for the fast reply, but like I say I am a touch new to this and........Well I knew what the picure was.......Er and I know what part of the pic I am ment to be looking at, but that helps me how?
Thankyou again but I realy need a bit more help.

I found that picture last month but cant find an exact match.
If anybody can help with this or any other question in the opening post then it would help me loads.
FTI

Gus was asking you to take a series of pictures of the inside of the mic to enable others to study them and help you. This is new mic and most of us haven't even seen one.

Ah sorry.
I will get on it.
FTI

At last




A first time for me, this posting my own images about, so I hope it works.

Itching to read your opinions on upgrade,
FTI

from what I can see the parts look OK. Yes you can change stuff but it might not be for the better.

what is wrong with it? Or what do you want to change?

yes sometimes even the cheaper parts can be OK. Look at a u47 schematic and pictures of the original parts.

I have been told that the little blue cap in the middle of the top pic can be replaced with a Panasonic styrine (SP) cap and yeald better results.
I also need to find an upgrade valve and base (im not sure but the one in mine is a plastic base).
I have also been recomended that I change the output transformer, but I forgot to take a pic (you can tell I am new at this).

I dont want to change the entire charicter of the mic as it is very flattering but I would like to try and get a bit more of what I think it is capeable of.
FTI

First don't believe the stuff you read on the web.

Who is telling you you need to change the parts?

I wonder were they got their information from???????????

That blue cap looks like it might be a .001uf 630V polypro is it marked 102 or .001? Some like polypros better than polystyenes or even polyesters... It might be just what you want.

Some of the stock china transformers can sound OK. IMO some replacements don't sound as good as the stock.

You are not telling what you want or what is wrong with it.

Why do you need to change the tube and tube socket? I would guess the pentode is wired as a triode and I don't know the tube. It might be fine again don't trust what you read on the web.


What is the heater voltage and what is the B+ voltage?

Just looked at the CAD site it seems it has 120VDC B+

three pattern switch 120VDC, 60VDC and 0VDC makes sense for a 3 pattern switch on the body

I read other sites and see stuff with microphone mods that makes me shake my head.

When I work on a microphone for someone I talk with them to try to find out what they want to keep or change and sometimes work with them at their studios. Some of what I posted in the past might not be what I do now. I have been refining what I do or sometimes don't do. Some microphones I just clean and fix as stock as possable.

Some of the china stuff is not that bad stock. A v67 can sound OK if the parts fall together right.

The inside pictures of the CAD don't look bad. Can you get better closeups of the transformer and circuit parts? Were is this CAD microphone made?

What pins are connected together at the tube?

FWIW you will see people changing the output transformer in the nady1150/ apex 460 Funny thing The stock one is not bad if you work with the design.

The cad schematics I have seen on the web are interesting designs.
Maybe thats a good microphone STOCK. I have not heard one. Maybe that china tube is OK.

That blue cap looks like a ceramic to me in which case it might be a good idea to swap it out. Which one were you talking about, Gus? The one I see is strung between the two 510M resistors. In any case, it's easily accessible for a quick change.

FTI--what don't you like about the way the mic currently sounds?

A P

Firstly thankyou for looking and adding your views.
Just for clarification, I showed this mic to a friend and he RECOMENDED if I was keen to upgrade this mic I might find improvement in changing said components.

Priority 1
I need to find spare valves for this mic as I will be useing it a lot and I LIKE to have spare consumeables at hand if things fail.
I would like to have an upgrade valve to use and keep the 6J1 as spare.

Priority 2
For the purposes of getting good value for money with any valve upgrade I would like to ensure that the base is not going to be microphonic -in as much as I can possibly avoid- and there is going to be a nice mill spec. ie. tight conection and preferably gold-on-gold conection.

Priority 3
Its all very nice getting good valves, but if some of the other parts that are in the chain have been selected for cost reasons, then it makes good reason to replace said components.
Most of the uprgrades that I have seen for valve amps have generaly been transformer based with signal cap upgrades.
NOTE: This may not actualy apply to mics as some amps are designed to be left on, obviously.

Pins conected are 1,2,3,4 and 5+6 i.e. together, nothing on 7.

My friend also suspects lil blue to be ceramic. Can someone tell me what all of the types of caps are good for? Or is it cost?

I have been told that Musicaps, Black Gate, Audio Note and Be Yamamura components are the veritable 'TITS' in a static and constantly powered up state but not so good for kit that that needs to be on song in 20 or so mins and be on song there and then.

I dont realy want to change any component values in the mic or change its overall ballance because like I say Its a very complimentary mic and quite a contrast to my bright SP C1s (My voice can sound sibilent with these).
If I CAN get a little more from a simple mod then I will be interested in reading.
If I CAN get an overall improvement from a simple mod then I will give it a go.
Thankyou again,
FTI
EDIT: BASE IS CERAMIC

A P

The blue is hard to tell from the picture if it is ceramic or film.

FTI

You are not posting what you don't like about the sound.
If you like the sound look for more 6j1s or a sub

The little blue cap is at a spot in the microphone that is sensitve to cap materal. If you like the stock microphone and think you need to change that cap MAKE SURE you are very careful removing the cap and saving it so you might get the sound you like back if you don't like the sound of the microphone with a different cap.

Do you know how to solder? You will also need to clean up all the flux. Microphones can be about small details.

This microphone is produced by Shanghai ShuaiYin Electronics Ltd.

I think changing the capacitor (which appears to be a ceramic) is one possible mod. It should be changed to a good quality polypropylene. I tend not to use polystyrene. They sound mildly harsh to me.

The tube could be changed to a 6AU6. Might require some rewiring. I would rip it out completely and put in a 6072a. If you keep the 7 pin don't bother changing the socket. It is ceramic which is the best. Like Gus says, you need to be very careful not to create leakage paths with solder flux.

Changing the transformer and output coupling capacitor will make a noticable difference in transparency and bass response. Don't bother with the pricey caps though. A Solen is good enough. People tend to give the electron way too much credit for intelligence.

burdij

I understand your post. I know from your posts you build microphones and DIY. So the following is meant in a good way. the web is limiting IMO.

It is all about taste.

I think of cap types and transformers as spice. Maybe what you posted will work for FTI but we don't know the "problem" with the stock microphone

First FTI needs to post what is wrong with the sound. As I posted above some of what I posted in the past is not what I might do now. Maybe FTI likes what the china transformer and output cap adds.

I have heard a ceramic at the capsule to the circuit input sound good for what was wanted out of the microphone. The input cap is a spot that is sensitve to dielectric stress caused by the voltage difference across the cap. I pick to taste

Look at old U47 inside pictures looks like a Al electro plate to transformer cap to me.

Yes plate to transformer cap type makes a difference but maybe not as much as the "web" makes people think. FWIW I often don't use Solens at that spot, to clean for what I am looking for most of the time.

I want to hear this microphone maybe the tube is nice

Also want to know the plate voltage and cathode voltage and resistor values used.

Thanks for your comments. Of course, FTI needs to determine what "sound" to persue. I have had people tell me that they are in love with the stock Nady 1150s and I have to agree, this is a pretty good mike for the money. The stock Trion microphone may perform well for the average recording situation. As always, the overall sound is going to be most limited by the quality of the capsule.

I think there has been a lot of hype about the U47 because it has somehow been associated with various vintage recording "sounds". It wasn't the best mike in a lot of general recording situations where its relative "dullness" caused many studios to press for better mikes. The U67 was introduced to satisfy engineers and producers that wanted a more accurate sound. The U47 developed a cache, though, as a singers mike. There is no doubt that the sound Frank Sinatra achieved was in part contributed by the U47. But other great singer's sound was produced by ribbon mikes. If you suggest using a ribbon for vocals, today, people will think you have lost it. So, I guess, I agree that one must envision the sound first, and then determine what changes need to be made to achieve the envisioned effect.

Regarding the output capacitor, I have noticed that this is one of the easiest ways to get a better sound from the average China circuit. All of these mikes use electolytics. In all of the vintage mikes I like, like the Altec M30, this capacitor is a mylar unit. I just suggested the Solens because they are the top of the "low end audiophile" range. They almost achieve the "straight wire" effect of direct coupling. I think the U47 designers were limited by the caps they had available at the time so they chose an electrolytic. Mylar wouldn't be available for production use until 1952.

I got the same mic too, when I first use it to record , it sounds very harsh at the top end and the bass a very rumble, then I replaced the capsule with a 797 capsule ( those with the ceremic white ring ) , that I took out from another mic ( superlux ) , the next thing I did was to replace the 6J1 to a 6AK5 vintage also tried a Western Electronic tube as well, they both produce a very nice result , but replacing the capsule is the HUGH different , but now I found the sounds is a bit lack of bottom end , but the detail of the highs are very nice, I heard you guys weere talking about the BLUE color 102k Coupling cap , " IT IS CERAMIC DISC " so next it think i will replace that and see what happen... suggestions on what to replace? Value, size? also what about the plate to Transformer cap?
can anybody help to locate that and suggestions on that also?
you guys are great! thanks for the help!

googled

http://studioforums.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1526095781/m/5301078451/p/13

Some of the posts in the thread Gus refered to at StudioForums talk about the transformer. It would be good to see a picture of the one in the Trion. It may not need to be changed. Some of the mikes I have from Alctron have a very nice small transformer that looks remarkably like a 2480 so maybe there is a Chinese supplier of a comparable unit.

Shanghai ShuaiYin is apparently a manufacturer of a diverse line of electronic products which could include transformers. Their small diaphragm condensers, being imported by Sterling Audio would need a transformer in this format as the body diameter is only slightly over 1 inch.

BTW - you would replace the coupling cap with a cap of the same value - 1000pf.

I understand maybe 30% of this
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/caps/caps.html
So I should try......?
The mic could be a little more detailed across the fq range.
Its not a middley mic but the fq extreems are a little lethargic.
I would like to find a nice gold pin EF95 and upgrade the Coupling cap, and just see how we go from there.
Thankyou agin for you thoughts, this is realy usefull reading your posts. :thumb:
FTI