Ethics of selling DIY to friends..

Hi guys,
Reading the other thread about the guy at Ebay reminded me to ask peoples opinins about this-especially to the good folks who are supplying us with great projects. What is your opinion about building a project, and then selling it to a direct friend for the cost of parts so you can build yourself another one? IE-with no intention of "profit" but just trying to help "pay for the fix"

Joel :guinness:

In general, there are some great designs floating around here. I know an awful lot of people that would never WANT to diy - but, they love the sound, concept and cost of the diy designs.

When I build stuff (including clones) for friends or clients, I bill parts + time. Any friend should be able to cope with your time being worth money. If you're only breaking even on projects for other people, it'll become a chore - not a challenge.

-james

Ask the person who came up with the design if he/she thinks it's ok.

/Anders

I was thinking about this recently... personally i think it's wrong to charge for more than cost of parts. I'd rather trade a service with a friend, like say, I build him an EQ or comp, he lets me borrow his (insert gear here) for my next big mix project, etc. I've built guitar pedals for friends, but never charged a service fee.

Also, does anyone find it wrong that some guys have used the exact SSL logo on their clones? I'm not pointing any fingers, but the topic of ethics made me think of that.

[quote author="JPrisus"]I was thinking about this recently... personally i think it's wrong to charge for more than cost of parts. I'd rather trade a service with a friend, like say, I build him an EQ or comp, he lets me borrow his (insert gear here) for my next big mix project, etc. I've built guitar pedals for friends, but never charged a service fee.[/quote]

While my time is rarely free, I always spend way more time on a project (wether it be audio or advertising) than I would ever ask someone to pay for. And, as a rule, barter is beautiful.

[quote author="JPrisus"]Also, does anyone find it wrong that some guys have used the exact SSL logo on their clones? I'm not pointing any fingers, but the topic of ethics made me think of that.[/quote]

It's not a f*cking SSL. They're lying to themselves and their clients (This is fine, of course, if it never leaves the bedroom studio).

Jeez...I can't write worth crap today...7 edits...


-james

Yeah, I always thought it was odd when people put the original mfr's name on their clones. It does seem unethical somehow, even when the clone is not designed to LOOK like the original. Not everybody is savvy enough to know at a glance that your clone is not really a Pultec or SSL. Some might take that 'Pultec' or 'SSL' legend on the front panel at face value (pun intended). If I were a manufacturer, I would be enraged if someone had the gall to put my company's name on a homebuilt clone. Legality aside, it just seems tasteless.

However, I don't think it's unethical to sell your DIY to a friend for a reasonable price to cover your cost and labor. It becomes unethical when you start building and selling clones for profit, as that clown on eBay is attempting to do.

[quote author="lictme"]It's not a f*cking SSL. They're lying to themselves and their clients (This is fine, of course, it never leaves the bedroom studio). [/quote]
Well, obviously not, though the circuit is taken from an SSL...

Personally, I think that making your own panel layout and putting your own name/logo on something you've built yourself is half the fun.

/Anders

[quote author="bblackwood"][quote author="lictme"]It's not a f*cking SSL. They're lying to themselves and their clients (This is fine, of course, it never leaves the bedroom studio). [/quote]
Well, obviously not, though the circuit is taken from an SSL...[/quote]

I don't think it's wrong to say - "...based on SSL's center buss-compressor..." but, that's not the same as slapping the fx series logo on the box and telling (or selling to) clients that it's "...the SSL compressor they can't afford...". I'd rather tell someone I built it because it's an awesome sounding box...

dig?

-james

[quote author="kvintus"]making your own panel layout and putting your own name/logo on something you've built yourself is half the fun.
[/quote]

Hear, hear!

Peace,
Al.

It seems like what you are talking about and what I am talking about are two different levels. I don't agree with the idea of "selling" clones to "clients"-no matter what you put on the front panel. This is DIY and the reason these are out there is because they aren't for people to be making a profit from. I can understand selling to a friend who is also building their studio and charging cost of materials and perhaps some labor-though for me the labor at this point is 90% learning. Just my $.02.

Joel

Ask the person who came up with the design if he/she thinks it's ok.

Click to expand...

Obviously the best answer so far. :green:

Hope this doesn't sound self-righteous, but the pcbs I bought off Mr Chef a few weeks back (the free time to finish them off would be nice...) were always intended to go in a box labelled "Gyraf VCA Compressor".

This situation with diy projects cropping up on ebay is likely to get worse I suspect, and I wonder if a "pre-emptive strike" is needed i.e. a re-brand of *certain* diy projects in the internet domain.

We will always know what the circuits are based on, maybe it's for the best if we don't rub the noses of the oems in it...

Justin

That's the nice thing about the Green Pre for example.

Joel

This has got me thinking as well...

Aren't there a bunch of companies that sell LA2a clones? What about Scenaria and his Bloo LA2a kit? Are they paying any kind of royalties to UREI (or UA or whoever the hell owns the design now)? What about ADM's Fairchild 660 clone?

Does anyone know how shit works with this kind of stuff?

Peace,
Al.

[quote author="NewYorkDave"]If I were a manufacturer, I would be enraged if someone had the gall to put my company's name on a homebuilt clone. Legality aside, it just seems tasteless.[/quote]

I couldnt have said that better.

dave

I've set a rule about the use of boards for example. I do not sell boards designed by somebody else, just mine, if people want it. This keep me cool with myself.

That ebay thread has me thinking too...

A couple people want me to make them a G9. It would take me some much time that I cant do it for cost of parts, maybe a small amount extra to cover parts for another project.

But just the thought that I might be sinking to the same depths as that scumbag make me want to have nothing to do with selling diy :?

Michael

It seems like what you are talking about and what I am talking about are two different levels. I don't agree with the idea of "selling" clones to "clients"-no matter what you put on the front panel. This is DIY and the reason these are out there is because they aren't for people to be making a profit from. I can understand selling to a friend who is also building their studio and charging cost of materials and perhaps some labor-though for me the labor at this point is 90% learning. Just my $.02.

Joel

Click to expand...

OK. So that smgaudio guy has me a little freaked out with the g9 sh*t...

I should say that I have never profited from any of the work published by the people here. Period. But I have learned an awful lot and do put that knowledge to commercial use.

Right now, I'm building a mixdown console based on refurbished ssl 5k modules for a client. This requires a custom chassis, summing buss, pan circuits, refurbishing a load of modules and some other stuff that I am doing from scratch. I am also integrating an augmented gssl into the mixer (labeled as such). I'm not fitting this into the "racking, etc.." time but I am charging for parts (digital meter with VU and GR, grayhill switches, relays, output transformers and master fader circuit) and some pretty modest time (to cover the original brain time).

I would hope that's not evil.

-james

mfilter,

If someone has approached you to build him a G9, I don't think it's unethical to offer to do it for the cost of parts and labor. What sets this clown "smgaudio" apart is that he was attempting to pass the G9 off as his own product (complete with his own model number), he used Jakob's copyrighted panel design in his advertising, and he was attempting to make a profit above and beyond "reasonable compensation" for parts and labor.